If you feel like complaining about your cell phone, you get 1,000 characters
on the online FCC complaint form & 3,000 characters on the online FTC form:

FCC 888-225-5322
https://esupport.fcc.gov/ccmsforms/f...orm_type=2000A

FTC 877-382-4357
https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/Details

In my case, I feel I was deceived by deceptive advertising on T-Mobile
LG Android phones which advertised 4GB of internal memory *plus* the
capability of a 32-GB external SD card (presumably for augmenting that
paltry memory).

Caveat emptor!

Nobody told me that, after Android 4.0 (Ice Cream Sandwich), apparently
you can't move any apps to the sd card, nor can you install apps onto the
SD card. If that is true (and I'm still confused whether that's the
case since it appears to be so for my phone but maybe not for others),
then I feel I was the victim of deceptive advertising.

Mea culpa!

Of course, that only holds sway if lots of other people feel the
same way (otherwise, I was just plain stupid).

So if you feel that you've been swayed by deceptive advertising into buying
an Android phone which subsequently turns out to be useless due to this
(or any other issue), I would encourage you to similarly complain using
the easy-to-use online forms referenced above.

FCC - Wireless Telephone - Unlawful advertising - Deceptive or unlawful
advertising or marketing by a communications company
(does NOT include Telemarketing)
FTC - Use the easy "Complaint Assistant"


PS: Don't tell my sister there is an easy-to-use "complaint assistant"!

On Sat, 05 Apr 2014 14:41:56 -0500, K Wills wrote:

In my case, I feel I was deceived by deceptive advertising on T-Mobile
LG Android phones which advertised 4GB of internal memory

How much memory did/does yours have?

I understand your point.

a. LG says it has 4GB of internal memory.
b. T-Mobile says it has 4GB of internal memory.
Therefore, I must assume the phone has 4GB of internal memory.

My question is, how is a consumer supposed to know that this 4GB
of internal memory turns into, in reality, only 600 MB of internal
memory for app and appdata storage?

Where is *that* information located?

It's not like that's not an important datapoint.

I feel the carrier should tell us this information *before*
we purchase the phone, since, I believe, it's impossible for
a consumer to *know* this important information without not only
having the phone in their hands, but also adding their google play
account and trying to install apps onto the SD card (and failing).

If the carrier won't tell us, how are we supposed to know that a
particular 4GB phone is, in reality, only a 600MB phone?

On Sat, 5 Apr 2014 18:45:02 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

FTC - Use the easy "Complaint Assistant"


Used it one time. Company called me directly asking me to withdraw the
complaint. The guy knew where I lived, acted like a NYC Mafia
gangster.. Pound dirt - I'll be here when you show up.

PS: Don't tell my sister there is an easy-to-use "complaint assistant"!

Double Top Secret?

On Sat, 05 Apr 2014 14:41:56 -0500, K Wills wrote:

I think the 32 Gigs is for storage, not memory. I suppose Android
could use space on the card for virtual memory, but it wouldn't be
too efficient, IMO.

I'm not technically savvy, but, there (apparently) *are* ways to turn
the SD card into internal memory, and vice versa.

For example, googling, I find these, one of which which might swap
out the 4GB of internal memory for the 32 GB SD card (at the expense,
we presume, of speed):

https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...edog.mounts2sd
"Mounts2SD is a customizable sd-ext control script that can be
used to move content to and from the second sdcard partition known
in Android as sd-ext."

https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...obile.move.app
"Move app in the easiest way。
€¢ Move apps to SD card"

https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...codlab.int2ext
"Ever wanted to swap your internal sdcard and your external sdcard?
Yes, you can ! ... fix this annoying thing which make your phone
using only few GB when you a full 64GB or even a 32GB one...
it works with every devices with external sdcards"

If I ever figure out how to turn the 32 GB SD card into internal
memory (from Android's standpoint), do you know what the drawbacks
might be?

K Wills posted Sat, 05 Apr 2014 14:41:56 -0500

On Sat, 5 Apr 2014 18:45:02 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

In my case, I feel I was deceived by deceptive advertising on
T-Mobile LG Android phones which advertised 4GB of internal memory

How much memory did/does yours have?

Perhaps 512-1024 MB RAM.

4GB are internal flash storage, equivalent to SSD disk,
called internal memory, what is rather confusing.

Nobody reasonable would said it means free 4GB.

Neither SSD or HD with installed OS is fully free.
Fact is, PC OSs occupy less relative portion on 80 GB SDD,
than Android on 4GB.

General vendor fault is they do not say
how much is left when Android and all preinstalled apps are in place,
as it is significant drop down for 4 GB only.

--
Poutnik

There is a good reason, why writers/directors do not repeat all
previous pages/episodes at the start of current one.

K Wills posted Sun, 06 Apr 2014 04:08:00 -0500


Based on what I've been reading, I think Danny's confusion is
over how much memory there is in total vs. what is available for use
by the person operating the phone.


I suppose so. Maybe root cause of his confusion is
the false thought the Android OS is stored
in dedicated firmware flash storage, something like BIOS in PC,
what is not true.

--
Poutnik

There is a good reason, why writers/directors do not repeat
all previous pages/episodes at the start of current one.

Poutnik posted Sun, 6 Apr 2014 11:53:30 +0200



K Wills posted Sun, 06 Apr 2014 04:08:00 -0500


Based on what I've been reading, I think Danny's confusion is
over how much memory there is in total vs. what is available for use
by the person operating the phone.


I suppose so. Maybe root cause of his confusion is
the false thought the Android OS is stored
in dedicated firmware flash storage, something like BIOS in PC,
what is not true.

P.S.:What make me wonder is how much this initial free space
vary across vendors/models.

I remember my Sony Xperia M Dual 4GB with A4.2.2
had initially about 1.7 GB free of so.

Perhaps different bunches of nonOS preinstalled apps by vendors ?
Or big differences in size across different Android versions ?

--
Poutnik

There is a good reason, why writers/directors do not repeat
all previous pages/episodes at the start of current one.

On Sunday, April 6, 2014 5:53:30 AM UTC-4, Poutnik wrote:
K Wills posted Sun, 06 Apr 2014 04:08:00 -0500





Based on what I've been reading, I think Danny's confusion is

over how much memory there is in total vs. what is available for use

by the person operating the phone.





I suppose so. Maybe root cause of his confusion is

the false thought the Android OS is stored

in dedicated firmware flash storage, something like BIOS in PC,

what is not true.



--

Poutnik


If the Android OS is not stored in flash memory on the phone,
where is it stored? In the cloud and downloaded each time the
phone is rebooted? It has to be one or the other. I assumed
it's stored on the phone.

On Sunday, April 6, 2014 5:06:49 AM UTC-4, K Wills wrote:
On Sat, 5 Apr 2014 20:19:44 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."

wrote:



On Sat, 05 Apr 2014 14:41:56 -0500, K Wills wrote:



In my case, I feel I was deceived by deceptive advertising on T-Mobile

LG Android phones which advertised 4GB of internal memory



How much memory did/does yours have?



I understand your point.



a. LG says it has 4GB of internal memory.

b. T-Mobile says it has 4GB of internal memory.

Therefore, I must assume the phone has 4GB of internal memory.





It probably does.



My question is, how is a consumer supposed to know that this 4GB

of internal memory turns into, in reality, only 600 MB of internal

memory for app and appdata storage?





Your phone likely has the four GB offered. But, as with all

computing devises, this isn't the amount of free memory you'll be able

to use.



Where is *that* information located?





Probably near the bottom of a print ad. Along the bottom of the

screen for TV.



It's not like that's not an important datapoint.



I feel the carrier should tell us this information *before*

we purchase the phone, since, I believe, it's impossible for

a consumer to *know* this important information without not only

having the phone in their hands, but also adding their google play

account and trying to install apps onto the SD card (and failing).





Since at least Gingerbread, installing to the SD has not been

possible. Or, at least, I've not been able. Although, as I mentioned

before, I've not tried with Jelly Bean.



If the carrier won't tell us, how are we supposed to know that a

particular 4GB phone is, in reality, only a 600MB phone?



I think you're confusing total memory with available memory.

Common sense should have let you know that you wouldn't have all four

GB of memory for use. The OS will use a good chunk. Then you add any

apps you're using.



Agree with the above. And even if you knew how much free memory
it had, I'm not sure how you'd know how to calculate what apps
you could install. I haven't really paid attention when installing
apps on my phone, but I don't even recall it saying how much memory
it needed as a minimum, etc. I can think of three possible solutions:

1 - Look at the apps that are installed and you can see on the phone
how much memory they take. Are there some big ones that he can do
without?

2 - Is it possible that something is corrupted on the phone and it's
not actually that it's really out of memory? Like maybe some apps
didn't install or uninstall completely, etc? In that case, is there
some kind of cleaner utility available that he could run?

3 - Similar to #2, reset the phone to it's original state, start over
re-installing apps.

As for a legitimate consumer complaint, I don't think he has much of
one. Sounds like the phone does have 4GB of memory. They can't know what you
intend to load and maybe not even how much memory the phone will have
without any apps. I would think the OS size could increase after
you buy the phone if new releases come out, bugs are fixed, etc.

I have an Android I bought in Dec. It has 4GB Flash, 1GB ROM.
I've loaded probably a dozen apps. Just checked it and it shows I
have 1.95GB total space, 1.13 avail, apps are taking up .62GB. I don't
have much in the way of say photos or videos stored. But if that were
the problem, that can be re-located to external memory card,
leaving more space for apps.

On Sun, 06 Apr 2014 11:53:30 +0200, Poutnik wrote:

I suppose so. Maybe root cause of his confusion is
the false thought the Android OS is stored
in dedicated firmware flash storage, something like BIOS in PC,
what is not true.

Actually, the fundamental root cause of my "problem", is that I
had (innocently) "thought" that we could MOVE (or delete)
pre-installed apps to the 32GB SD card, which, if true (as it
was in prior versions of Android), would make the 4GB ROM less
limiting.

In fact, the carrier (T-Mobile) advertised that the 4GB phone
could be augmented with a 32GB microSD card, but, only *after*
I added the 32GB class 10 card did I realize that was a lie.

Google, apparently, prohibits moving of apps to the flash card,
so, the flash card is only useful for "user content" of which
there is none (simply because the phone is useless and therefore
has never been put in service).

NOTE: The story is complicated, because prior to Android 4.0,
Google allowed moving of apps; between 4.0 and 4.3 Google
disallowed moving of apps; and after 4.3, Google allowed
moving of apps if the developer enables it.
account).

The other fundamental root cause of the "problem" is that there
is absolutely no way for a consumer to know that the 4GB phone
has only 600MB of usable space for apps.

Since the user can't easily know these two fundamental
pieces of data, and since the carrier clearly knows them,
I feel the carrier should tell us this information when
we ask. They don't (and I have proof via many calls to
T-Mobile over this topic, all of which are documented).

In the end, I filed *both* an FTC and FCC complaint.
I do realize that nothing will come of either one, unless
others file their own complaints (safety in numbers).

On Sun, 06 Apr 2014 12:01:31 +0200, Poutnik wrote:

Perhaps different bunches of nonOS preinstalled apps by vendors ?
Or big differences in size across different Android versions ?

On this LG Optimus L9 (model LG-P769), there is 1.8GB available
as reported by the OS (which means the Android 4.1.2 OS took up
2.2 GB) but only 600MB available after LG & T-Mobile software
was added by the carrier (which means they added 600MB of apps).

The problem is that nobody tells the consumer that the 32GB
sd card can't be used for app storage; so you're stuck with
the 600MB (which nobody tells you either).

Since the carrier *knows* this information, it is my heartfelt
opinion that the carrier should truthfully and faithfully
report the "usable" memory to the consumer, not the initial
memory.

Hence my FTC and FCC complaints about deceptive advertising.

On Sun, 06 Apr 2014 06:30:45 -0700, trader_4 wrote:

If the Android OS is not stored in flash memory on the phone,
where is it stored? In the cloud and downloaded each time the
phone is rebooted? It has to be one or the other. I assumed
it's stored on the phone.

The problem isn't where the Android OS is stored (since we all
know it's stored in the 4GB "internal memory" of the phone).

The problem is that the key spec is "usable memory", not
total initial memory.

It wouldn't matter if the usable memory were, um, usable,
but, since the usable memory turns out to be 600 MB, that
pretty much makes the phone unusable, even with a high-speed
class-10 32GB microSD card.

The complaint is that the mobile carrier *knows* that the
usable memory is only 600MB, but yet they persist in telling
the user that the phone is 4GB with a 32GB flash card
capability ... when they KNOW that the flash card can't
be used (it remains empty) for apps and that the available
space for apps is locked at 600MB.

All I am asking the FCC and FTC to do is ask the carrier
to tell the truth. I'm not sure why people feel the truth
should not be told, so, let me ask a question of the group:

QUESTION:
Why shouldn't the carrier be told to tell the truth?

On Sun, 06 Apr 2014 04:06:49 -0500, K Wills wrote:

Your phone likely has the four GB offered. But, as with all
computing devises, this isn't the amount of free memory you'll be able
to use.

My point exactly.

Why shouldn't the carrier be forced (by the FTC or FCC) to tell
the consumer the truth?

On Sun, 06 Apr 2014 04:06:49 -0500, K Wills wrote:

Where is *that* information located?

Probably near the bottom of a print ad. Along the bottom of the
screen for TV.

It's not.

Nowhere in any T-Mobile document on the web is the truth told.

Also, I have *many* (documented) communications with T-Mobile
where they actually told me the wrong answer to the basic
question of how much USABLE memory there was.

The answer they give is 4GB.
The real answer is 600MB.

I'm not sure why I'm the only one (apparently) who feels
T-Mobile should tell the truth, but, that's the whole point
of solicitation opinions.

I guess I'm the only one who cares that the carriers not
lie to the consumer. Either that, or I'm the only one dumb
enough to (initially) believe the lie.

On Sun, 06 Apr 2014 06:52:30 -0700, trader_4 wrote:

1 - Look at the apps that are installed and you can see on the phone
how much memory they take. Are there some big ones that he can do
without?

Take the example of Google Chrome. It's 75MB.
Yet it can't be removed.

There are SCORES of apps that can't be removed, yet, which will
never be used.

Of course, the technical solution is to overwrite the operating
system (e.g., Cyanogenmod), which allows you to control this,
but, my point isn't that I can root the phone ... it's that the
companies LIE to the consumer by intimating that you have 4GB
of internal memory which can be augmented by 32GB of sdcard.

The truth is that you have 600MB of internal memory for apps,
and it can't be augmented.

All I am asking is for the carrier to say the truth in their
advertising.

On Sun, 06 Apr 2014 06:52:30 -0700, trader_4 wrote:

2 - Is it possible that something is corrupted on the phone and it's
not actually that it's really out of memory?

It's a long story, but the memory readout on the various Android
versions is well known to be faulty.

Still, the baseline information is accurate:
a) The phone starts with 4GB of internal memory.
b) The phone can hold a 32GB sdcard.
c) However, Google disallows moving the apps to the sdcard.
d) And the carrier disallows deleting the pre-installed apps.
e) Therefore, the phone is really a 600MB phone for apps!

I fully realize T-Mobile would never be able to sell a single
one of these phones if they told the truth, that it is a 600MB
phone.

In fact, I bought it, believing (erroneously) the advertising,
which intimates it's a 4GB phone that can be augmented with a
32GB sdcard.

Turns out it's a 600MB phone which can't be augmented, period.

All I'm asking is for T-Mobile to tell the truth in its
advertising.

If they told the truth, they'd never sell the phone, but,
they should still tell the truth. Every time I call them,
they tell me it's a 4GB phone that can be added to with a
32GB sdcard (which is a bold-faced lie for apps).

On Sunday, April 6, 2014 11:04:19 AM UTC-4, Danny D. wrote:
On Sun, 06 Apr 2014 11:53:30 +0200, Poutnik wrote:



I suppose so. Maybe root cause of his confusion is

the false thought the Android OS is stored

in dedicated firmware flash storage, something like BIOS in PC,

what is not true.



Actually, the fundamental root cause of my "problem", is that I

had (innocently) "thought" that we could MOVE (or delete)

pre-installed apps to the 32GB SD card, which, if true (as it

was in prior versions of Android), would make the 4GB ROM less

limiting.



In fact, the carrier (T-Mobile) advertised that the 4GB phone

could be augmented with a 32GB microSD card, but, only *after*

I added the 32GB class 10 card did I realize that was a lie.


It can be augmented with 32GB of flash, which can be used to
store photos, videos, music, etc. It's just that the additional
memory can't be used to store apps, as I understand it. Do you
have photos, videos, music, etc that are hogging space and can go
to the flash card?

Are you sure there isn't something wrong, like a corrupted file
system, some apps half installed, not removed completely, etc
that is making it look like memory isn't available?
Maybe it's time to restore it to original, wipe it clean and start over?




Google, apparently, prohibits moving of apps to the flash card,

so, the flash card is only useful for "user content" of which

there is none (simply because the phone is useless and therefore

has never been put in service).


Seems like a very unusual case we have here. This is the first
phone I've ever heard of that ran out of memory before it was
even put into service.





NOTE: The story is complicated, because prior to Android 4.0,

Google allowed moving of apps; between 4.0 and 4.3 Google

disallowed moving of apps; and after 4.3, Google allowed

moving of apps if the developer enables it.

account).



The other fundamental root cause of the "problem" is that there

is absolutely no way for a consumer to know that the 4GB phone

has only 600MB of usable space for apps.



I have a similar Android, with 4GB flash, Jelly Bean OS. In addtion to
the apps it came with, I've downloaded probably a dozen that I installed.
Right now it reports the apps taking .62GB of memory and 1.13GB available.




Since the user can't easily know these two fundamental

pieces of data, and since the carrier clearly knows them,

I feel the carrier should tell us this information when

we ask. They don't (and I have proof via many calls to

T-Mobile over this topic, all of which are documented).



What did they tell you when you asked? Did they give you a
number? And if they didn't I would never assume that because
the hardware says it has 4GB of flash, that it's all available.
It's like buying a PC with a 1TB hard drive and expecting that
it's all available, ie that the OS, apps etc don't take up some
of it.



In the end, I filed *both* an FTC and FCC complaint.

I do realize that nothing will come of either one, unless

others file their own complaints (safety in numbers).

If it were me, I'd try to figure out what I'm doing that is so
unique that it renders a phone that 99% of folks can use, useless.
If you're a power user, why did you buy what appears to be an
entry level phone? Isn't this like buying a $300 PC then complaining
because it won't work to run the hot new gaming apps well?

If the phone is truly unusable, you can sell it on Ebay and
buy another one that suits your needs.

On Sunday, April 6, 2014 11:08:54 AM UTC-4, Danny D. wrote:
On Sun, 06 Apr 2014 12:01:31 +0200, Poutnik wrote:



Perhaps different bunches of nonOS preinstalled apps by vendors ?

Or big differences in size across different Android versions ?



On this LG Optimus L9 (model LG-P769), there is 1.8GB available

as reported by the OS (which means the Android 4.1.2 OS took up

2.2 GB) but only 600MB available after LG & T-Mobile software

was added by the carrier (which means they added 600MB of apps).



I have a similar 4GB Android. It has all that came with it, plus
at least a dozen apps that I downloaded. It still has 1.13GB avaialable.
I suspect something is wrong with your phone that's eating up space,
like a corrupted file system, some apps that didn't install correctly, etc.

Even assuming it is truely loaded with apps by the carrier, why
can't you delete the apps that you don't need? Did you take a look
at how much memory each app is taking? You have something unusual on
there?




The problem is that nobody tells the consumer that the 32GB

sd card can't be used for app storage; so you're stuck with

the 600MB (which nobody tells you either).



What did they tell you when you asked?





Since the carrier *knows* this information, it is my heartfelt

opinion that the carrier should truthfully and faithfully

report the "usable" memory to the consumer, not the initial

memory.



Hence my FTC and FCC complaints about deceptive advertising.

Is that how it works with a PC? Do they tell you how much RAM
or hard drive is free versus how much the OS and apps loaded take
up/use?

Danny D. posted Sun, 6 Apr 2014 15:24:10 +0000 (UTC)


All I'm asking is for T-Mobile to tell the truth in its
advertising.

If they told the truth, they'd never sell the phone, but,
they should still tell the truth. Every time I call them,
they tell me it's a 4GB phone that can be added to with a
32GB sdcard (which is a bold-faced lie for apps).

Well, we live in age of advertisement.
Lies became fully tolerated behaviour.
Vendors are used to say half truth at the best.


--
Poutnik

There is a good reason, why writers/directors do not repeat
all previous pages/episodes at the start of current one.

On Sunday, April 6, 2014 11:13:28 AM UTC-4, Danny D. wrote:
On Sun, 06 Apr 2014 04:06:49 -0500, K Wills wrote:



Your phone likely has the four GB offered. But, as with all

computing devises, this isn't the amount of free memory you'll be able

to use.



My point exactly.



Why shouldn't the carrier be forced (by the FTC or FCC) to tell

the consumer the truth?

Why can't the consumer turn on the phone when they first take
possession and see how much free memory it has? I bet that if
you went back in the first week and said I can't use this phone
because my apps won't fit, they'd do something about it, like
offer to switch you up to a better phone for the difference.

One problem with having that number available is that I'm sure
it constantly changes with software loads, bug fixes, etc. And
it sure isn't how it works with similar devices, eg a PC.
They tell you that the PC has 6GB of RAM, 1TB of hard drive, not
how much is free and available for either storing or running apps.

On Sunday, April 6, 2014 11:15:50 AM UTC-4, Danny D. wrote:
On Sun, 06 Apr 2014 04:06:49 -0500, K Wills wrote:



Where is *that* information located?



Probably near the bottom of a print ad. Along the bottom of the

screen for TV.



It's not.



Nowhere in any T-Mobile document on the web is the truth told.



Also, I have *many* (documented) communications with T-Mobile

where they actually told me the wrong answer to the basic

question of how much USABLE memory there was.



The answer they give is 4GB.

The real answer is 600MB.



I'm not sure why I'm the only one (apparently) who feels

T-Mobile should tell the truth, but, that's the whole point

of solicitation opinions.



I guess I'm the only one who cares that the carriers not

lie to the consumer. Either that, or I'm the only one dumb

enough to (initially) believe the lie.

A cell phone today has many characteristics of a similar consumer
device, the PC. When you buy a PC and the manufacturer lists the
specs that say 6GB RAM, 1TB hard drive, are they lying because not
all of it is free and available to store or run apps? They've been
selling them that was for 3 decades, AFAIK.

Poutnik posted Sun, 6 Apr 2014 17:40:39 +0200

Danny D. posted Sun, 6 Apr 2014 15:24:10 +0000 (UTC)

......Every time I call them,
they tell me it's a 4GB phone that can be added to with a
32GB sdcard (which is a bold-faced lie for apps).

Your cannot say it is the lie.
It does have 4GB and it CAN be added by 32GB card.

It is rather a kind of half truth,
hiding what you can do with them.


Well, we live in age of advertisement.
Lies became fully tolerated behaviour.
Vendors are used to say half truth at the best.



--
Poutnik

There is a good reason, why writers/directors do not repeat
all previous pages/episodes at the start of current one.

On Sunday, April 6, 2014 11:18:32 AM UTC-4, Danny D. wrote:
On Sun, 06 Apr 2014 06:52:30 -0700, trader_4 wrote:



1 - Look at the apps that are installed and you can see on the phone

how much memory they take. Are there some big ones that he can do

without?



Take the example of Google Chrome. It's 75MB.

Yet it can't be removed.



I just checked my phone. You're right, chrome is a big app.
On my phone it's 113MB. But.... That's the only app that's anywhere
near that size. Next biggest is Google Search, which is 62MB and
they quickly tail off in size after that. Total used is 670MB, with
1.3GB free.

So, where's the list of these other mega apps that are taking all
your memory?




There are SCORES of apps that can't be removed, yet, which will

never be used.



Sure, but again on my similar phone the total of all apps removable
or not, is 670MB, with 1.3GB still free.




Of course, the technical solution is to overwrite the operating

system (e.g., Cyanogenmod), which allows you to control this,

but, my point isn't that I can root the phone ... it's that the

companies LIE to the consumer by intimating that you have 4GB

of internal memory which can be augmented by 32GB of sdcard.


It can be augmented and used for photos, videos, music, etc.
So, I wouldn't say it's exactly a lie.





The truth is that you have 600MB of internal memory for apps,

and it can't be augmented.


Did you verify this was all you had when the phone was new, out of
the box? Or did you wind up there after some period of time, with something possibly corrupted that is resulting in space being marked as used,
when it's not, etc? Did you try doing a full restore on it? Take
it to Tmobile, show them the problem and see what their tech says?

On Sun, 6 Apr 2014 08:41:13 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote in


Why can't the consumer turn on the phone when they first take
possession and see how much free memory it has?

Good point.
--
I kill-file all messages posted through Google Groups.

On Sunday, April 6, 2014 11:48:41 AM UTC-4, Poutnik wrote:
Poutnik posted Sun, 6 Apr 2014 17:40:39 +0200



Danny D. posted Sun, 6 Apr 2014 15:24:10 +0000 (UTC)



......Every time I call them,

they tell me it's a 4GB phone that can be added to with a

32GB sdcard (which is a bold-faced lie for apps).



Your cannot say it is the lie.

It does have 4GB and it CAN be added by 32GB card.



It is rather a kind of half truth,

hiding what you can do with them.





Well, we live in age of advertisement.

Lies became fully tolerated behaviour.

Vendors are used to say half truth at the best.



I wonder what he thinks when he sees a PC advertised with 6GB of
RAM, 1TB of disk? They don't indicate how much is free, how much
is used by the OS, recovery partition, any apps that are included,
etc? Hell, even just formatting the drive reduces
what's available. Same thing for many other consumer devices no?
Like if you buy an iPod type device with 100MB, does that mean you
actually have 100MB? That some of it isn't lost to formatting, the
OS, etc? Not sure about the iPod stuff, but it sure works that way
on PCs.

To be sure, the case he's talking about, the reduction is a lot
more drastic, but the basic principle is still the same. I'm still
wondering what apps he needs that take 600MB+ that he has available
for whatever he wants. The typical stuff I've installed is maybe 5 - 20MB.

On Sun, 06 Apr 2014 08:32:02 -0700, trader_4 wrote:

It's just that the additional memory can't be used to
store apps, as I understand it. Do you have photos,
videos, music, etc that are hogging space and can go
to the flash card?

The device is unusable out of the box, so I have
never put it into service (it was intended as a gift).
It has zero user content.

The problem isn't the user content anyway (for that,
there is the 32GB sdcard). The problem is that it is
a 600MB phone, but if the carrier actually informed
you of that limitation, you'd never have bought the
phone (as a gift, or otherwise) in the first place.

That's why they lie about the memory.

Anyway, what's done is done. I'm working on unlocking
the bootloader, which isn't as simple as it sounds:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/show....php?t=2198114

On Sun, 06 Apr 2014 08:32:02 -0700, trader_4 wrote:

Are you sure there isn't something wrong, like a corrupted file
system, some apps half installed, not removed completely, etc
that is making it look like memory isn't available?
Maybe it's time to restore it to original, wipe it clean and start over?

The LG Optimus L9 already at factory default settings (because
it was intended as a gift, but it's unusable as a smart phone).

Out of the box, the OS says there is 1.8GB but that's only what
the OS thinks there is to start with.

The non-movable and non-deletable apps that come pre-installed on
the phone use up 600 more megabytes, so, what you have "available"
to the user, out of the box, is 600MB for app storage.

BTW, the first step to solving the problem is "unlocking the bootloader",
which, as innocent as that sounds, turns out to be a bit
confusing (so far) for the P769 that I have in my hands:

http://forum.xda-developers.com/show....php?t=2557249

On Sun, 06 Apr 2014 08:37:32 -0700, trader_4 wrote:

I have a similar 4GB Android. It has all that came with it, plus
at least a dozen apps that I downloaded.
It still has 1.13GB avaialable.

Depending on your OS, you probably have far less space available
for apps on that phone than the 1.13GB indicates. For examnple,
on my LG Optimus L9 (P769), the Android 4.1.2 OS indicates there
is 1.8 GB, but, in reality, there is only half that, at 600MB.

So, be careful when you read what "available memory" is in an
Android phone because the various versions of Android spit
out different answers to the same question.

I can't tell you what that number is telling you without
you telling us which Android operating system you have.

For the gory (hundreds of posts) details, see this thread:
How do we get Android to spit out the true memory & storage situation?
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!to...id/e6svmGS1M-E

Assuming you neither have an older or newer Android, what you're
probably seeing is the available space after the OS is installed
but *before* any pre-installed apps from the carrier are installed.

On Sun, 06 Apr 2014 08:37:32 -0700, trader_4 wrote:

Even assuming it is truely loaded with apps by the carrier, why
can't you delete the apps that you don't need? Did you take a look
at how much memory each app is taking? You have something unusual on
there?

The carrier has disabled the ability to delete pre-installed apps.

Google, in Android 4.1.2, has disabled the ability to move apps
to the 32GB sdcard.

So, when you say 'why don't you just delete the apps', what
you're asking is "why not root the phone", which is what I'm
exploring before I give it away as a gift.

The phone was always intended as a gift (as my Samsung Galaxy S3
doesn't exhibit this problem). But, at the moment, it's a useless
$200 paperweight that I would never have bought had the carrier
advertised it for what it is, which is a 600MB phone for apps.

Unfortunately, it appears that unlocking the bootloader on the
P769 is one of the more difficult phones to unlock:

http://forum.xda-developers.com/show....php?t=2198114

On Sun, 06 Apr 2014 08:37:32 -0700, trader_4 wrote:

What did they tell you when you asked?

I have multiple documented phone calls to T-Mobile
Customer and Technical Support personnel, all of
which have their first names and their employee
ID (all of which was posted in the FCC complaint).

They *always* say the usable memory is 4GB, plus
you can add a 32GB sdcard.

Needles to say, the LG Optimus L9 is useless as a
gift, so, I am seeking ways to fix it, the first
step of which appears to be to unlock the bootloader.

Here's what I'm reading (it's over 100 pages long):
http://forum.xda-developers.com/show....php?t=2277639

NOTE: Had the carrier told me it was a 600MB phone,
I would never have bought this device!

On Sun, 06 Apr 2014 08:58:40 -0700, trader_4 wrote:

So, where's the list of these other mega apps that
are taking all your memory?

I had started to compile the list, but then got sidetracked
trying to figure out how to unlock the bootloader on the P769.

Here's the list I was compiling ... (the dashed ones I think
were put there by T-Mobile, the doubledashed ones by LG, I think).

- 411 & more /system/app/411AndMore.apk 1.28MB
-- AAT /system/app/AAT.apk 898KB
-- Accessibility /system/app/LGSettingsAccessibility.apk 655KB
- Alarm/clock /system/app/LGAlarmClock.apk 13.66MB
- Amazon /system/app/AmazonShopping.apk 7.37MB
-- Android System /system/framework/framework-res.apk 6.25MB
- Application manager /system/app/AppBox.apk 898KB
-- Aspect Ratio correction /system/app/CompatibilityMode.apk 71KB
- Backup /system/app/LinkBackup.apk 5.97MB
-- Bluetooth Services /system/app/BluetoothServices.apk 595KB
-- Bluetooth Share /system/app/Bluetooth.apk 823KB
- Browser /system/app/LGBrowser.apk 9.86MB
- Calculator /system/app/LGCalculator.apk 1.69MB
- Calendar /system/app/LGCalendar.apk 5.65MB
-- Calendar Storage /system/app/LGCalendarProvider.apk 690KB
- Caller Tunes /system/app/CallerTunes.apk 1.74MB
- Camera /system/app/CameraApp.apk 5.24MB
-- Camera Test /system/app/CameraTestApp.apk 114KB
-- Certificate Installer /system/app//CertInstaller.apk 61KB
- Chrome /data/app/com.android.chrome-1.apk 74.58MB
- CMAS /system/app/CMAS.apk 593KB
- Contacts /system/app/LGContacts3.apk 13.38MB
- Contacts Storage /system/app/LGContactsProviders3.apk 2.14MB
- Downloads /system/app/LGDownloadProviderUi.apk 161KB
-- Download Manager /system/app/LGDownloadProvider.apk 438KB
-- DRM Protected Content Storage /system/app/DrmProvider.apk 51KB
-- DRM Service /system/app/DrmService.apk 86KB
- Email /system/app/LGEmail.apk 9.27MB
- Email Widget /system/app/EmailWidget.apk 870KB
-- Face Unlock /system/app/FaqceLock.apk 992KB
- Facebook /system/app/Facebook.apk 24.77MB
-- Favorite Contacts Widget /system/app/FavoriteContactsWidget.apk 598KB
- File manager
- FileShare
- Gallery
- Game Base
- Games 7.50MB
- Gmail
- Google
- Google settings
- Google+
- Local
- Lookout Security
- Maps
- Memo
- Messaging
- Messenger
- Music
- Navigation
- Phone
- Play Books
- Play Magazines
- Play Movies & TV
- Play Music
- Play Store
- Polaris Office 4
- Scout
- Settings
- Setup
- Slacker Radio
- Smartphone Mobile Hotspot
- SmartShare
- T-Mobile My Account
- T-Mobile Name ID
- T-Mobile TV
- Talk
- Task Manager
- Videos
- Visual Voicemail
- Voice Recorder
- Voice Search
- Weather
- YouTube
- Zynga Games

On Sun, 06 Apr 2014 08:41:13 -0700, trader_4 wrote:

Why can't the consumer turn on the phone when they first take
possession and see how much free memory it has?

Funny you mention that because T-Mobile said the same thing.
And, in California, I get a full month to return the phone,
I believe.

The problem, in my case, is that it was sent to someone
as a gift, and I didn't get it back as unusable until
after that - and worse yet - precious time was lost calling
T-Mobile who repeatedly said (they lied) that we could
move apps to the SD card.

I have archived their support emails saying this, and
I referenced them in my FTC and FCC complaints.

T-Mobile purposely mislead the consumer, because no
consumer would buy the phone if they knew it only
allowed 600MB of app storage.

On Sun, 06 Apr 2014 08:41:13 -0700, trader_4 wrote:

I bet that if you went back in the first week and said
I can't use this phone because my apps won't fit, they'd
do something about it, like offer to switch you up to a
better phone for the difference.

That's exactly what I've done for the other gift phone:
Should I take T-Mobile's offer of swapping the $240 LG F3 with the Nexus 5 (+ $160)
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!to...id/ExlUVakGkYA

In that thread, you will see that T-Mobile has agreed
with me that the LG Optimus F3 (also bought as a gift) has
the same problem as the LG Optimus L9, such that T-Mobile
offered to trade the F3 in at its full $240 value for a
16GB Nexus 5 (at $400, plus tax).

So, my $240 gift has now turned into a $400 gift (each
plus about 10% tax) simply because they lied to me when
I asked how much usable memory was on the phone.

Since I bought the LG Optimus F3 from T-Mobile, they
made good on it, even though it was returned to them
six months after it was bought (albeit at additional
cost to me); however, the T-Mobile locked LG Optimus
F3 was not bought at a T-Mobile store.

Both phones were bought as gifts, but both are unusable
as smart phones, simply because the available memory
is less than a gigabyte.

T-Mobile knows this. They try to keep it from you
for as long as they can; otherwise, you'd never buy
these phones.

That's the whole point of the complaint to the FCC/FTC.
All I want T-Mobile to do is tell the truth.

On Sun, 06 Apr 2014 08:41:13 -0700, trader_4 wrote:

They tell you that the PC has 6GB of RAM, 1TB of hard drive, not
how much is free and available for either storing or running apps.

We all agree on that, but we also must agree that PC operating
systems and pre-installed apps take up roughly around 100MB of
that 1TB hard disk, and so it's not in the same league as an
Android OS and apps that take up 3.6GB of a 4GB ROM.

On Sun, 06 Apr 2014 08:41:13 -0700, trader_4 wrote:

One problem with having that number available is that I'm sure
it constantly changes with software loads, bug fixes, etc.

I must agree.

So maybe I should ask the FCC/FTC mandate that they state
a minimum amount of usable memory to the consumer?

For example, like they do on potato chip bags or boxes
of cereal or mass-produced items in bulk.

Something akin to:
"Contains at least 600MB of available internal memory"

On Sunday, April 6, 2014 2:15:55 PM UTC-4, Danny D. wrote:
On Sun, 06 Apr 2014 08:32:02 -0700, trader_4 wrote:



It's just that the additional memory can't be used to

store apps, as I understand it. Do you have photos,

videos, music, etc that are hogging space and can go

to the flash card?



The device is unusable out of the box, so I have

never put it into service (it was intended as a gift).

It has zero user content.



I'm sure I'm not the only one here who finds it hard to believe
that the phone is unusable, right out of the box. Even by your own
math, it has 600MB of free space. What is unusable about that?
And even if it was "unusable", because you intended to put some
apps that take 600MB+ on it, did you take it right back to Tmobile
and what did they say?




The problem isn't the user content anyway (for that,

there is the 32GB sdcard). The problem is that it is

a 600MB phone, but if the carrier actually informed

you of that limitation, you'd never have bought the

phone (as a gift, or otherwise) in the first place.


Why not? I've installed lots of apps on my similar Android.
My *total* installed
apps, not just what I installed, but also what came preloaded,
is 670MB. Meaning I've loaded maybe a couple hundred MB. I'd
be very happy with your phone as a gift.

And my 4GB phone still has 1.3GB *free*, which is why I suspect
either there is something corrupted on the phone or you're doing
something very unusual.






That's why they lie about the memory.



Anyway, what's done is done. I'm working on unlocking

the bootloader, which isn't as simple as it sounds:

http://forum.xda-developers.com/show....php?t=2198114

We still have yet to hear what the user added apps are that
require 600MB+? Just give us a list from the system of the
major apps and how much they are using.

On Sunday, April 6, 2014 2:29:36 PM UTC-4, Danny D. wrote:
On Sun, 06 Apr 2014 08:37:32 -0700, trader_4 wrote:



I have a similar 4GB Android. It has all that came with it, plus

at least a dozen apps that I downloaded.

It still has 1.13GB avaialable.



Depending on your OS, you probably have far less space available

for apps on that phone than the 1.13GB indicates. For examnple,

on my LG Optimus L9 (P769), the Android 4.1.2 OS indicates there

is 1.8 GB, but, in reality, there is only half that, at 600MB.



How do you know there is only 600MB free, vs the reported 1.8GB free?




So, be careful when you read what "available memory" is in an

Android phone because the various versions of Android spit

out different answers to the same question.


Different versions are going to take up different amounts
of space. You probably don't have an apples to apples comparison
of the same phone, same apps, with one version vs another, anyway,
which would be difficult to do.






I can't tell you what that number is telling you without

you telling us which Android operating system you have.



For the gory (hundreds of posts) details, see this thread:

How do we get Android to spit out the true memory & storage situation?

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!to...id/e6svmGS1M-E



All I see there are people saying that various utilities give differing
numbers. No one seems to be saying that their phones are unusable out
of the box, that they can't install a reasonable amount of apps, etc.



Assuming you neither have an older or newer Android, what you're

probably seeing is the available space after the OS is installed

but *before* any pre-installed apps from the carrier are installed.

I really doubt that.

On Sunday, April 6, 2014 2:48:43 PM UTC-4, Danny D. wrote:
On Sun, 06 Apr 2014 08:41:13 -0700, trader_4 wrote:



Why can't the consumer turn on the phone when they first take

possession and see how much free memory it has?



Funny you mention that because T-Mobile said the same thing.

And, in California, I get a full month to return the phone,

I believe.



The problem, in my case, is that it was sent to someone

as a gift, and I didn't get it back as unusable until

after that - and worse yet - precious time was lost calling

T-Mobile who repeatedly said (they lied) that we could

move apps to the SD card.



I have archived their support emails saying this, and

I referenced them in my FTC and FCC complaints.



T-Mobile purposely mislead the consumer, because no

consumer would buy the phone if they knew it only

allowed 600MB of app storage.

You know what really stinks at this point? Your continued insistance
that the phone was intended as a gift and it was "unusable".
Yet despite all the
bitching, you have yet to tell us what exactly the apps were that
require more than 600MB for the smartphone to be "usable". Somehow
I smell a rat, like this phone was intended to be used for some kind
of special apps, that require an especially large amount of memory
and you bought an entry level phone. Without giving us a simple
list of the big apps that were to be
installed but couldn't be and hence render this phone unusable,
this whole thing is a circle jerk.

As for not buying such a phone, as I've pointed out, my total app load
on my Android, including Google Chrome and every app that came pre-loaded,
plus all that I put on it, is only ~600MB. So, a phone that gave me
space for 600MB of my own apps, would be perfectly fine.

Danny D. posted Sun, 6 Apr 2014 18:29:36 +0000 (UTC)


Depending on your OS, you probably have far less space available
for apps on that phone than the 1.13GB indicates. For examnple,
on my LG Optimus L9 (P769), the Android 4.1.2 OS indicates there
is 1.8 GB, but, in reality, there is only half that, at 600MB.

I have read somewhere Android internally divides internal storage into
2 regions, and none of them can use all of free space.

Then it depends, what region spends its free space sooner.

--
Poutnik

There is a good reason, why writers/directors do not repeat
all previous pages/episodes at the start of current one.

On Sun, 6 Apr 2014 12:02:53 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote in


I'm sure I'm not the only one here who finds it hard to believe
that the phone is unusable, right out of the box. Even by your own
math, it has 600MB of free space. What is unusable about that?
And even if it was "unusable", because you intended to put some
apps that take 600MB+ on it, did you take it right back to Tmobile
and what did they say?

Good points.
--
I kill-file all messages posted through Google Groups.