"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...
Bill wrote:


Yes, I understand. If your breakers work the way they should, then
they would protect you, your family and your property. But don't
they fail on occasion?
I think of them as a backup.


If you keep trying to find potential problems this way, you will never
wire your garage. After all - what is the difference between and
extension cord and a wired outlet? If that breaker failure occurs, the
impact is the same at the outlet as it is at the extension cord. How do
you think it is going to be any safer by not using the extension cord?


Nothing is waiting on the extension cord. It just surprised me that I was
the
one who observed a difference between an extension cord and a wall outlet.
I would
have thought it more likely for our roles to have been reversed on that
detail.

Bill

Bill wrote:


My point was that a regular extension cord was less likely to incur
an issue in the first place rather an multi-pound box containing 2
duplex outlets. It would be quite easy,
for instance, for someone to spill a liquid into or kick the latter
compared to
a regular extension cord or a wall outlet. My neighbor's dog might
even pee on it. ; )

Well - you have to go with what makes you comfortable in this matter. I
think you're looking for problems where they don't exist, but I'm not the
one who has to be comfortable in your garage. Just make sure the extension
cords you purchase are heavy enough for the tasks at hand...



As far as the details concerning the job, the main concern I have is
"how well" I need
to get the cable from one side of the attic to an adjacent corner.
Currently virtually all of
the cables of the house are lying unprotected in the attic. I would
like to do something in between
pulling up the attic floor boards and drilling holes in the joists,
and just laying 4 new cables
next to the ones already there. How about stapling the new cabkes to
the base of the ceiling
joists (using the appropriate staples)? Is that likely to pass an
inspection based on the situation
I've described? Obviously staping them to the floor boards is a
horrible concept, because, for instance,
I will need to get under those to install my lighting boxes.


The NEC addresses this. You can't just staple up romex to the underside of
joists. You can install running boards and then staple to those though.
The NEC is a tough read if you don't already know what you're looking for
and where it is addressed, however you can find adequate information in a
number of DIY wiring books available at places like Home Depot, Lowes, etc.
Would be worth the money for ya.

--

-Mike-

Bill wrote:
"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...
Bill wrote:


Yes, I understand. If your breakers work the way they should, then
they would protect you, your family and your property. But don't
they fail on occasion?
I think of them as a backup.


If you keep trying to find potential problems this way, you will
never wire your garage. After all - what is the difference between
and extension cord and a wired outlet? If that breaker failure
occurs, the impact is the same at the outlet as it is at the
extension cord. How do you think it is going to be any safer by not
using the extension cord?


Nothing is waiting on the extension cord. It just surprised me that
I was the
one who observed a difference between an extension cord and a wall
outlet. I would
have thought it more likely for our roles to have been reversed on
that detail.


I think it's more a matter that you believe you found a problem that is not
really a problem. Or... at least one that is so easily addressed as to make
it moot. Your mention of a breaker failure is what I addressed and the
extension cord has no association with a breaker failure, that is any
greater than anything else that is tied to a breaker or plugged into a wall,
or even hardwired for that matter.

--

-Mike-

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...
The NEC addresses this. You can't just staple up romex to the underside
of joists.

Yes, I had read this.

You can install running boards and then staple to those though.

Ah, now that's a Fine idea! : )



The NEC is a tough read if you don't already know what you're looking for
and where it is addressed,

Yes, I've noticed that!


however you can find adequate information in a number of DIY wiring books
available at places like Home Depot, Lowes, etc. Would be worth the money
for ya.

I bought "Stanley's" wiring book. I've learned a bit from it, and it is
nice to read, but it does not contain
the suggestion you made about "running boards", and I doubt the other books
do either.
I will feel better about that design too! I will just plan to nail up a 4"
path
of 1/2" stock near the base of the roof joists. It will look great! : )
Now, I can author my design with a
little more authority (reminds me of the letter Ralphie wrote for his
teacher in the movie The Christmas Story)!

Bill



--

-Mike-

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...

If you keep trying to find potential problems this way, you will never
wire your garage.



With the assistance you and other folks have given me, I'm going to pull
this off. After I am successful, I will add it to my short list of major
accomplishments! : )

Bill

I am not certain where you want to run the cables. Typically in the ceiling
you would run the cables on the ***sides** of the trusses or rafters. This
prevents stepping on the cable when walking around in the attic and not
nailing through them when you put a ceiling in. Leave some slack spots to be
able to push the cables out-of-the-way in case of putting something up there
or future construction or a wire breaks off in a box and you need a few more
spare inches.

Keep all your wirng back from the wall or ceiling surface about 1.5" or
more. This makes them miss frywall screws and nails or that picture of the
centrefold you want to hang on a nail. If you must violate that space
install a protecive plate, available for plumbers with some hammer in claws
to stop nails and screws going through that spot easily.

You're an educated, smart guy and you will have more detail questions as you
get going. You'll be fine with an Inspector to give you hints. A little
butter /grease can go a long way with the Inpsector...not too obvious
though...LOL. Be friendly and pedestal the guy a bit.



"Bill" wrote in message
...

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...
The NEC addresses this. You can't just staple up romex to the underside
of joists.

Yes, I had read this.

You can install running boards and then staple to those though.

Ah, now that's a Fine idea! : )



The NEC is a tough read if you don't already know what you're looking for
and where it is addressed,

Yes, I've noticed that!


however you can find adequate information in a number of DIY wiring books
available at places like Home Depot, Lowes, etc. Would be worth the money
for ya.

I bought "Stanley's" wiring book. I've learned a bit from it, and it is
nice to read, but it does not contain
the suggestion you made about "running boards", and I doubt the other books
do either.
I will feel better about that design too! I will just plan to nail up a 4"
path
of 1/2" stock near the base of the roof joists. It will look great! : )
Now, I can author my design with a
little more authority (reminds me of the letter Ralphie wrote for his
teacher in the movie The Christmas Story)!

Bill



--

-Mike-

Like the rest of us, when the job is finished you will be looking around
saying, "Nothin' to it". The hardest part is the anxiety or not knowing.

"Bill" wrote in message
...

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...

If you keep trying to find potential problems this way, you will never
wire your garage.



With the assistance you and other folks have given me, I'm going to pull
this off. After I am successful, I will add it to my short list of major
accomplishments! : )

Bill

"Bill" writes:

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
.. .

If you keep trying to find potential problems this way, you will never
wire your garage.



With the assistance you and other folks have given me, I'm going to pull
this off. After I am successful, I will add it to my short list of major
accomplishments! : )

Bill



The _most useful_ outlet that I have in my shop is a retractable cube-tap
hanging from the center of the shop ceiling. I suggest you run another
circuit to a quad outlet box there for the retractable cube-tap.

s

Highly recommended. even if you just wire a recptacle for a garage door
opener. You cna always hook a pulldown trouble light, receptacle later from
it.

or

Put a garage door opener on it and park your lawn tractor in there for the
winter when it's too cold to do wood working in there.


"Scott Lurndal" wrote in message news:V4tQn.33398The
_most useful_ outlet that I have in my shop is a retractable cube-tap
hanging from the center of the shop ceiling. I suggest you run another
circuit to a quad outlet box there for the retractable cube-tap.

s

"Josepi" wrote in message
news
I am not certain where you want to run the cables.

Josephi,

The cable needs to go from the subpanel, straight up the inside of a wall to
the attic and from there go about 12-15 feet to the top of an adjacent wall
where it comes back down. The difficulty (for me) was how the cable should
go through the attic. This portion of the attic already has "flooring" and
I'd prefer not to mess with that. Mike suggested a "running board" which
would span the roof joists, I imagine it would be quite low. I "knew"
running cable from roof joist to roof joist (without a "running board") just
"had to be wrong" because of the proximity to possible moisture there. I
will do some homework on the "running board" concept and look for some
examples to see what I might be overlooking.

I told my wife I was planning to submit some SU pictures with my request for
a building permit and she thought I was trying to "show off"! This was
funny to me because the situation is actually quite the opposite, but after
considering it I hope the pictures will help make a good impression.

Bill

"Josepi" wrote in message
news
You'll be fine with an Inspector to give you hints. A little
butter /grease can go a long way with the Inpsector...not too obvious
though...LOL. Be friendly and pedestal the guy a bit.


Thank you. I am hoping this renovation gives me a chance to remove a cable
that truely
shouldn't be lying where it is. I really want a electrical configuration I
don't have to
apologize for, one that was completed with a little craftsmanship...

Bill

"Josepi" wrote in message
...
Like the rest of us, when the job is finished you will be looking around
saying, "Nothin' to it". The hardest part is the anxiety or not knowing.


Thank you for your understanding! : )

"Scott Lurndal" wrote in message
...

The _most useful_ outlet that I have in my shop is a retractable cube-tap
hanging from the center of the shop ceiling. I suggest you run another
circuit to a quad outlet box there for the retractable cube-tap.


Thank you for your suggestion. I may do something along those lines.
I'm already proposing 6 duplex outlets on one wall, 3 on another, and 3
240v outlets on the first wall. I've already had more than one salesperson
look at me incredulously and ask why I needed so much power...lol.
I hope none of this worries anyone who issues permits.

I learned a new word today, "cube-tap". Google showed me.

"Josepi" wrote in message
...
Highly recommended. even if you just wire a recptacle for a garage door
opener. You cna always hook a pulldown trouble light, receptacle later
from
it.

or

Put a garage door opener on it and park your lawn tractor in there for the
winter when it's too cold to do wood working in there.



Actually, my garage door openers is plugged into the one duplex outlet in
the attic.
I plug a lamp into the other socket so I can see while I'm up there.

I'll see what more I can do after I better understand the existing
electrical configuration.

Maybe I can describe my design in my application for a building permit with
just
enough generality to give me some flexibility.

Thanks again!
Bill

"Bill" wrote in
:


Thank you. I am hoping this renovation gives me a chance to remove a
cable that truely
shouldn't be lying where it is. I really want a electrical
configuration I don't have to
apologize for, one that was completed with a little craftsmanship...

Bill



With that attitude, you're likely to succeed. Remember to label as you
go, and label everything. I had to replace a switch today and wound up
shutting off every 120V breaker in the unlabeled panel to get the power
shut off.

(What's really irritating this was a new panel and the old one was
sufficiently labeled.)

Puckdropper
--
Never teach your apprentice everything you know.

You just need to follow the existing lumber in the attic and pin to the
sides of what's there so it can't be stepped on and damaged.

A running board can be used if the trusses run perpendicular to the
direction you want to travel.

In our code preactice, if you cannot walk over top of it you don't have to
worry about it being stepped on. IOW if the ceiling is too low you can't
walk there.

Do **NOT** drill through engineered trusses. If a building Inspector saw
this he may make you replace them.....big job!!!!

You mentioned "building permit". We would not be involved in a building
permit, but rather a wiring permit. Inside a garage, nobody is going to know
what you have done and if you are not modifying the structure, who cares?
YMMV on that one with area regs and community rules.


"Bill" wrote in message
...
Josephi,

The cable needs to go from the subpanel, straight up the inside of a wall to
the attic and from there go about 12-15 feet to the top of an adjacent wall
where it comes back down. The difficulty (for me) was how the cable should
go through the attic. This portion of the attic already has "flooring" and
I'd prefer not to mess with that. Mike suggested a "running board" which
would span the roof joists, I imagine it would be quite low. I "knew"
running cable from roof joist to roof joist (without a "running board") just
"had to be wrong" because of the proximity to possible moisture there. I
will do some homework on the "running board" concept and look for some
examples to see what I might be overlooking.

I told my wife I was planning to submit some SU pictures with my request for
a building permit and she thought I was trying to "show off"! This was
funny to me because the situation is actually quite the opposite, but after
considering it I hope the pictures will help make a good impression.

Bill

So.. you like your car really warm in the winter and need a lot of
receptacles for all the heaters!!

Or

You are wiring for the new all electric cars coming out and not sure what
kind of receptacle will be needed?

LOL


"Bill" wrote in message
...
Thank you for your suggestion. I may do something along those lines.
I'm already proposing 6 duplex outlets on one wall, 3 on another, and 3
240v outlets on the first wall. I've already had more than one salesperson
look at me incredulously and ask why I needed so much power...lol.
I hope none of this worries anyone who issues permits.

I learned a new word today, "cube-tap". Google showed me.

"Josepi" wrote in message
...

Do **NOT** drill through engineered trusses. If a building Inspector saw
this he may make you replace them.....big job!!!!

I wasn't planning to here, but that is a nice piece of knowledge to have.
Thanks!


You mentioned "building permit". We would not be involved in a building
permit, but rather a wiring permit. Inside a garage, nobody is going to
know
what you have done and if you are not modifying the structure, who cares?

The folks who would pay a claim on a homeowner's insurance policy. I don't
wish
to provide them with an easy out--even if a fire might be caused by a
furnace,
hot water heater, or existing wiring. I've seen that they work pretty hard
to avoid
writing checks, and I'm not an attorney and I don't wish to have to hire
one.
In the absense of a building permit, I would leave myself vulnerable. Maybe
your
answer would have been different if I had disclosed that it was an attached
garage?

Bill

Nahh! Attached ro unattached I wouldn't get a building permit, **HERE**.

Work inside a home can't be seen from the road and mostly not necessary and
not wanted from this end.

A deck somebody could fall off of, over a certain size, attached to the
building...every municipality has it's own requirements for when a permit is
needed.

Even then in the last house I built I put a deck on 8' in the ait about 16'
x 16' and the inspector stands on the finished deck, looks down the
neigbourhood back yards a says "There is a deck that wasn't inspected,
there's one.. and another and another."

I asked about hitting on them and he replies "We have no rights to enter
somebdy's property with a warrant". They basically had no rights to enforce
anything untill somebody gets hurt or a fire or other legal happening. OTOH:
A few 3000 ft^2 homes in a nearby city were bulldozed due to lack of
permits. Now that is hidden structural that cannot be inspected after the
fact and bigger politcis, at the time.

To make a long story short I am not sure why you would get the building
inspection people involved. Electrical? yes. (maybe they are one and the
same there) I assume you have made your "feeler" calls to the governing
bodies to see what the desired rules are.



"Bill" wrote in message
...
The folks who would pay a claim on a homeowner's insurance policy. I don't
wish
to provide them with an easy out--even if a fire might be caused by a
furnace,
hot water heater, or existing wiring. I've seen that they work pretty hard
to avoid
writing checks, and I'm not an attorney and I don't wish to have to hire
one.
In the absense of a building permit, I would leave myself vulnerable. Maybe
your
answer would have been different if I had disclosed that it was an attached
garage?

Bill

"Puckdropper" puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote in message
...

Remember to label as you
go, and label everything. I had to replace a switch today and wound up
shutting off every 120V breaker in the unlabeled panel to get the power
shut off.

(What's really irritating this was a new panel and the old one was
sufficiently labeled.)


When I submitted a purchase agreement, I requested that the seller's add
labels
to the 3 year old main panel. It didn't have a single one! I was glad I
did, because
I learned that each ceiling fan had a breaker, for instance, and I would
probably still
be guessing what the breaker for for the sump pump was for!

Do you label any of the wires themselves (or anything else along those
lines)?

Bill

That depends whether you ever will open up a wall and wonder where the
cables go.

I think he meant the breakers. I usually do it in pencil on a separate sheet
and then after I get the three word descriptions and abrev. (word too long)
down I label the permanent sticker with marking pen.

Most figure they will after and then **after** they can't temeber where it
all went too and then one-of-these-days, I'll get a 'round-tuit, and I could
never find one of those online to buy.

Anybody know where to buy a round tuit?


"Bill" wrote in message
...
When I submitted a purchase agreement, I requested that the seller's add
labels
to the 3 year old main panel. It didn't have a single one! I was glad I
did, because
I learned that each ceiling fan had a breaker, for instance, and I would
probably still
be guessing what the breaker for for the sump pump was for!

Do you label any of the wires themselves (or anything else along those
lines)?

Bill


"Puckdropper" puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote in message
...

Remember to label as you
go, and label everything. I had to replace a switch today and wound up
shutting off every 120V breaker in the unlabeled panel to get the power
shut off.

(What's really irritating this was a new panel and the old one was
sufficiently labeled.)

"Josepi" wrote in message
...

To make a long story short I am not sure why you would get the building
inspection people involved. Electrical? yes. (maybe they are one and the
same there) I assume you have made your "feeler" calls to the governing
bodies to see what the desired rules are.


The city seems to to have comingled several facets
(building/heating/cooling/plumbing/electrical) into
The Dept of Community Development. My assumption about the requirement was
based upon the NEC. Part of my project includes the installation of a new
subpanel.
One will be able to see if from the street and I don't want to ever have to
answer any
hard questions about how it got there. In different circumstances, I might
be more cavalier.

Bill

"Bill" wrote in
:



When I submitted a purchase agreement, I requested that the seller's
add labels
to the 3 year old main panel. It didn't have a single one! I was
glad I did, because
I learned that each ceiling fan had a breaker, for instance, and I
would probably still
be guessing what the breaker for for the sump pump was for!

Do you label any of the wires themselves (or anything else along those
lines)?

Bill


I would. I'd label them at several points, especially around an access
point to a chase or other area where there are several cables running
near each other.

On our club model railroad, we had two bus runs (basically circuits) next
to each other. It was extremely difficult to distinguish between them,
and the wire that wasn't supposed to be tapped in to was. Labeled wires
probably would have prevented that problem. (There's now a permanent
marker stripe down one wire as well as several labels.)

Puckdropper
--
Never teach your apprentice everything you know.

I am not under the US NEC but I thought it only applied to electrical codes?


Now I have to run build a pergola, in the rain, about 100 miles away...LOL

hmmmm... bathing suit or not?
Nahh! wouldn't look good up on a ladder with my construction boots.
fun? yuk!


"Bill" wrote in message
...
The city seems to to have comingled several facets
(building/heating/cooling/plumbing/electrical) into
The Dept of Community Development. My assumption about the requirement was
based upon the NEC. Part of my project includes the installation of a new
subpanel.
One will be able to see if from the street and I don't want to ever have to
answer any
hard questions about how it got there. In different circumstances, I might
be more cavalier.

Bill

Bill wrote:



Maybe I can describe my design in my application for a building
permit with just
enough generality to give me some flexibility.


You probably do not have to describe your design at all in your permit
application. Most building permits do not require any detailed electrical
design - just an inspection by an electrical inspector. Why bother
detailing more information than required?

--

-Mike-

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...
Bill wrote:



Maybe I can describe my design in my application for a building
permit with just
enough generality to give me some flexibility.


You probably do not have to describe your design at all in your permit
application. Most building permits do not require any detailed electrical
design - just an inspection by an electrical inspector. Why bother
detailing more information than required?



It appears that 2 inspections are required: a "Rough-In" and a "Final"
inspection.
If I just install the subpanel, but don't power it, and run cables from it,
unattached, to all of the boxes,
including running board, staples, but not any outlets or circuit breakers,
will I be ready for the "Rough-In" inspection?

The application includes the following (and is the ONLY place where the
applicant describes the work to be done--of course, this is the same permit
one would use to build an entire garage):

10) Maps, Sketches, and Other Exhibits: Applicant must attach appropriate
sufficient maps, sketches, and
other exhibits, including a signed Homeowner’s Association and/or
Architectural Control Committee
Affirmation of Notification.


From what you said, in my application for a permit, I assume I might write:
"Install a subpanel adjacent to the existing main panel in the garage,
and wire additional power outlets and additional lighting there, making
minor modifications as necessary, dependant on the existing electrical
configuration."

I could add: "The subpanel would be powered from a circuilt breaker (60
Amp) from the main panel having 200 Amp service".

Based upon your experience, do you expect that these statements may suffice?

Bill

Bill wrote:


It appears that 2 inspections are required: a "Rough-In" and a "Final"
inspection.

That is the norm.

If I just install the subpanel, but don't power it, and run cables
from it, unattached, to all of the boxes,
including running board, staples, but not any outlets or circuit
breakers, will I be ready for the "Rough-In" inspection?

Install your subpanel complete with wiring to your main, just leave the
breaker turned off that feeds the subpanel. Then, as you indicate below,
run all of your branch circuits, with nothing attached to them. Call for
your rough-in. Once you get the sticker for the rough-in, you can complete
and cover the wiring (sheetrock or whatever you choose). Then you call for
your final. The inspector will look at connections within your boxes, GFIs,
etc. He'll give you a final sticker if he's satisfied.

Many of us will wire in the devices (outlets, switches, etc.) prior to the
rough-in inspection, just because, and inspectors usually do not object.
That way, you can energize circuits for temporary use prior to the
inspection. Best to check with your local electrical inspection firm though
to see what they want.



The application includes the following (and is the ONLY place where
the applicant describes the work to be done--of course, this is the
same permit one would use to build an entire garage):

10) Maps, Sketches, and Other Exhibits: Applicant must attach
appropriate sufficient maps, sketches, and
other exhibits, including a signed Homeowner’s Association and/or
Architectural Control Committee
Affirmation of Notification.

Most places do not require a description of wiring in a building permit
application. Again though - this stuff can vary widely from jurisdiction to
jurisdiction, so it's best to ask your code enforcement people what level of
detail they want for electrical. I'm guessing they don't really want any
level of detail in the application. Generally they defer to the electrical
inspector to assure electrical code compliance and only want to see his
stickers.



From what you said, in my application for a permit, I assume I might
write: "Install a subpanel adjacent to the existing main panel in
the garage, and wire additional power outlets and additional lighting
there,
making minor modifications as necessary, dependant on the existing
electrical configuration."

You may not even have to say that much. Generally local codes folks don't
care about things like subpanels - they just want to see your stickers.


I could add: "The subpanel would be powered from a circuilt breaker
(60 Amp) from the main panel having 200 Amp service".


Not if you don't need to.

Based upon your experience, do you expect that these statements may
suffice?

If you have to say anything about electrical, you may be able to get by with
the statement that all electrical work will be performed to NEC (or local
codes), and inspected by certified electrical inspectors.

--

-Mike-

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...

::: document printed :::

If you have to say anything about electrical, you may be able to get by
with the statement that all electrical work will be performed to NEC (or
local codes), and inspected by certified electrical inspectors.


I find out ASAP.
TYVM!

On Sat, 12 Jun 2010 08:46:21 -0400, "Bill" wrote:


"Josepi" wrote in message
...

To make a long story short I am not sure why you would get the building
inspection people involved. Electrical? yes. (maybe they are one and the
same there) I assume you have made your "feeler" calls to the governing
bodies to see what the desired rules are.


The city seems to to have comingled several facets
(building/heating/cooling/plumbing/electrical) into
The Dept of Community Development. My assumption about the requirement was
based upon the NEC. Part of my project includes the installation of a new
subpanel.
One will be able to see if from the street and I don't want to ever have to
answer any
hard questions about how it got there. In different circumstances, I might
be more cavalier.

I didn't pull a permit to add my electrical panel, nor am I for the finishing
job on the room above the garage (my shop, some day). I did when I added a
garage, twenty years ago and that included a sub panel.

wrote in message
...

The city seems to to have comingled several facets
(building/heating/cooling/plumbing/electrical) into
The Dept of Community Development. My assumption about the requirement was
based upon the NEC. Part of my project includes the installation of a new
subpanel.
One will be able to see if from the street and I don't want to ever have
to
answer any
hard questions about how it got there. In different circumstances, I
might
be more cavalier.

I didn't pull a permit to add my electrical panel, nor am I for the
finishing
job on the room above the garage (my shop, some day). I did when I added
a
garage, twenty years ago and that included a sub panel.


If you would have had to make a fire-related claim with your home owners
insurance company
you may have been up a creek (worth the risk?).

I don't want to waste the approximately $600/yr I spend for my coverage.
Where I live, the permit is $25--cheaper than pills to help me sleep.
Not only that, the idea pleases SWMBO! : ) Not only that, I've never
worked through the process
before so I will learn something from it. From my perspective, I don't see a
big downside.
I want to emphasize: YMMV!

Bill

On Sun, 13 Jun 2010 16:26:53 -0400, "Bill" wrote:


wrote in message
.. .

The city seems to to have comingled several facets
(building/heating/cooling/plumbing/electrical) into
The Dept of Community Development. My assumption about the requirement was
based upon the NEC. Part of my project includes the installation of a new
subpanel.
One will be able to see if from the street and I don't want to ever have
to
answer any
hard questions about how it got there. In different circumstances, I
might
be more cavalier.

I didn't pull a permit to add my electrical panel, nor am I for the
finishing
job on the room above the garage (my shop, some day). I did when I added
a
garage, twenty years ago and that included a sub panel.


If you would have had to make a fire-related claim with your home owners
insurance company
you may have been up a creek (worth the risk?).

Bull****. You can't come up with one example of this actually happening
because it never has.

I don't want to waste the approximately $600/yr I spend for my coverage.
Where I live, the permit is $25--cheaper than pills to help me sleep.
Not only that, the idea pleases SWMBO! : ) Not only that, I've never
worked through the process
before so I will learn something from it. From my perspective, I don't see a
big downside.
I want to emphasize: YMMV!

You've bought into a pack of lies.

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 13 Jun 2010 16:26:53 -0400, "Bill"
wrote:


wrote in message
. ..

The city seems to to have comingled several facets
(building/heating/cooling/plumbing/electrical) into
The Dept of Community Development. My assumption about the requirement
was
based upon the NEC. Part of my project includes the installation of a
new
subpanel.
One will be able to see if from the street and I don't want to ever have
to
answer any
hard questions about how it got there. In different circumstances, I
might
be more cavalier.

I didn't pull a permit to add my electrical panel, nor am I for the
finishing
job on the room above the garage (my shop, some day). I did when I
added
a
garage, twenty years ago and that included a sub panel.


If you would have had to make a fire-related claim with your home owners
insurance company
you may have been up a creek (worth the risk?).

Bull****. You can't come up with one example of this actually happening
because it never has.


I found this example in 30 seconds; the OPs problem is sort of interesting:

http://www.thathomesite.com/forums/l...833224624.html

Another issue is that should you sell your home, you will be liable to the
buyer
should they experience a fire and learn that you installed the subpanel
without
a permit. I'm curious whether manslaughter charges would be plausable
under the right set of circumstances (not yours!)... You say Bull****, I
say, here
please, take the $25. : )

On Sun, 13 Jun 2010 18:01:37 -0400, "Bill" wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 13 Jun 2010 16:26:53 -0400, "Bill"
wrote:


wrote in message
...

The city seems to to have comingled several facets
(building/heating/cooling/plumbing/electrical) into
The Dept of Community Development. My assumption about the requirement
was
based upon the NEC. Part of my project includes the installation of a
new
subpanel.
One will be able to see if from the street and I don't want to ever have
to
answer any
hard questions about how it got there. In different circumstances, I
might
be more cavalier.

I didn't pull a permit to add my electrical panel, nor am I for the
finishing
job on the room above the garage (my shop, some day). I did when I
added
a
garage, twenty years ago and that included a sub panel.


If you would have had to make a fire-related claim with your home owners
insurance company
you may have been up a creek (worth the risk?).

Bull****. You can't come up with one example of this actually happening
because it never has.


I found this example in 30 seconds; the OPs problem is sort of interesting:

http://www.thathomesite.com/forums/l...833224624.html

More bull****. That's a case of no building permit for a structure. The
issue at hand is not a structure.

Another issue is that should you sell your home, you will be liable to the
buyer
should they experience a fire and learn that you installed the subpanel
without
a permit. I'm curious whether manslaughter charges would be plausable
under the right set of circumstances (not yours!)... You say Bull****, I
say, here
please, take the $25. : )

Again, you spout bull****. Find an example. You can't.

In article , "Bill" wrote:

wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 13 Jun 2010 16:26:53 -0400, "Bill"
wrote:


wrote in message
...

The city seems to to have comingled several facets
(building/heating/cooling/plumbing/electrical) into
The Dept of Community Development. My assumption about the requirement
was
based upon the NEC. Part of my project includes the installation of a
new
subpanel.
One will be able to see if from the street and I don't want to ever have
to
answer any
hard questions about how it got there. In different circumstances, I
might
be more cavalier.

I didn't pull a permit to add my electrical panel, nor am I for the
finishing
job on the room above the garage (my shop, some day). I did when I
added
a
garage, twenty years ago and that included a sub panel.


If you would have had to make a fire-related claim with your home owners
insurance company
you may have been up a creek (worth the risk?).

Bull****. You can't come up with one example of this actually happening
because it never has.


I found this example in 30 seconds; the OPs problem is sort of interesting:

http://www.thathomesite.com/forums/l...833224624.html

That page describes a building that was built in violation of local zoning
ordinances, and the city want the owner to tear it down. What does that have
to do with the allegation that an insurance company may deny a claim for a
residential fire if electrical work was done without a permit, or not done to
Code? That is a claim that is made frequently, here and at alt.home.repair,
but so far I haven't seen even one case in which the person making that claim
has been able to substantiate it.

Another issue is that should you sell your home, you will be liable to the
buyer should they experience a fire and learn that you installed the subpanel
without a permit.

Got a cite for that, or are you simply repeating what you read somewhere? Lots
of people say that too, but I haven't seen that one backed up either.

Bill wrote:
wrote in message
...

On Sun, 13 Jun 2010 16:26:53 -0400, "Bill"

snip

If you would have had to make a fire-related claim with your home owners
insurance company
you may have been up a creek (worth the risk?).

Bull****. You can't come up with one example of this actually happening
because it never has.



I found this example in 30 seconds; the OPs problem is sort of interesting:

http://www.thathomesite.com/forums/l...833224624.html

The above article has nothing to do with an insurance claim being denied
due to a failure to obtain a building permit for electrical work?

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

"Bill" wrote in
:



If you would have had to make a fire-related claim with your home
owners insurance company
you may have been up a creek (worth the risk?).

I don't want to waste the approximately $600/yr I spend for my
coverage. Where I live, the permit is $25--cheaper than pills to help
me sleep. Not only that, the idea pleases SWMBO! : ) Not only that,
I've never worked through the process
before so I will learn something from it. From my perspective, I don't
see a big downside.
I want to emphasize: YMMV!

Bill

Insurance issues aside, $25 for an inspection is cheap. Assuming you
have a good inspector, getting your work looked at by a professional for
$25 is cheap.

Puckdropper
--
Never teach your apprentice everything you know.

On 6/13/2010 8:43 PM, Nova wrote:
Bill wrote:
wrote in message
...

On Sun, 13 Jun 2010 16:26:53 -0400, "Bill"

snip

If you would have had to make a fire-related claim with your home
owners
insurance company
you may have been up a creek (worth the risk?).

Bull****. You can't come up with one example of this actually happening
because it never has.



I found this example in 30 seconds; the OPs problem is sort of
interesting:

http://www.thathomesite.com/forums/l...833224624.html

The above article has nothing to do with an insurance claim being denied
due to a failure to obtain a building permit for electrical work?

The bizarre thing about it is that he wants to tear down the garage and
the zoning board wants him to tear down the garage, so WHY IS THERE A
PROBLEM? Seems to me that the thing to do is tear down the garage and
then get the permit to build the new one he wants.

But you're right that it has nothing to do with insurance.

However it is true that you _can_ end up up the creek. If you did
substandard wiring in violation of code _and_ if that substandard wiring
started the fire, THEN they could if they chose to be sticky deny the
claim.

In article , "J. Clarke" wrote:

However it is true that you _can_ end up up the creek. If you did
substandard wiring in violation of code _and_ if that substandard wiring
started the fire, THEN they could if they chose to be sticky deny the
claim.

Not if the insurance contract doesn't say so, they can't.

Can anyone come up with *one* *verified* example of an insurance company
successfully denying a fire insurance claim based on substandard wiring, or
wiring that was done without a permit?

Bill wrote:


I found this example in 30 seconds; the OPs problem is sort of
interesting:
http://www.thathomesite.com/forums/l...833224624.html

Another issue is that should you sell your home, you will be liable
to the buyer
should they experience a fire and learn that you installed the
subpanel without
a permit. I'm curious whether manslaughter charges would be plausable
under the right set of circumstances (not yours!)... You say
Bull****, I say, here
please, take the $25. : )

Not at all relevant Bill. As you've been told many times now - you will be
getting an electrical inspection. That is the process which deems your
wiring to be in compliance. What goes on with building permits is an
entirely different matter. You are looking too hard to find problems...

--

-Mike-

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...

That is the process which deems your wiring to be in compliance. What goes
on with building permits is an entirely different matter.

But it is correct that the inspection is provided as part of the process,
correct?

By the way, for those that are keeping score, I just found out that the
price for the permit in my jurisdiction will
be $75, rather than $25. On the positive side, the form doesn't ask any
hard questions. Some of you guys spend
more than $75 on a saw blade.

Sorry if the case I provided yesterday was a bit of a "red herring". Not
being a lawyer, doing reseach on that
particular topic is not of interest to me. The only point I wanted to make
is that not getting a permit can get you in trouble.
My dad, whose passed away 3 years ago, would advise me to get the
inspection/permit. Ya can't argue with the ol' man, right?

I'm off to the county seat with my application. Have a nice day!!! : )

Bill