*** All bets down ***

Since I don't have to have the power turned off at the meter to make my
modifications, a permit is not required.
They handed me my check back.

*** Take the pass, pay the don'ts ***


Comment: I had to go to the county level ("Builing and Zoning Department")
as, although I have a city mailing address, technically my area is not
incorporated as a part of the city. YMMV

Bill

Here what happens with the insurance companies, typically.

- You have a fire
- Fire Marshal (Chief Fire Inspector with insurance company hanging on his
every word...waiting) checks in and says "Careless smoking!", You reply "No,
nobody smokes here!".
- Fire Marshal then states "Official cause of fire is bad wiring" **BIG
STAMP ON PAGE** (before all the nonsense boys double their ritalin
injections - I have been there)
- Your insurance company looks into permit records and finds no record of
wiring permit to add recent updates. They don't want to pay, readily. May
drag out for a few years plus a few sleepless nights.
- Your insurance company has to pay, probably by law
- Your insurance comes up for renewal and they won't look at you.
- You run to other insurance compaines and they share records.
- You live without insuance and your mortgage company theatens you to pay-up
now.
- You reach deep into investments and get a second job.
- You post here and they all laugh at you.

BTW: The $75 fee will totally break the budget on your $20,000 update,
cancel the whole deal and, you will live in shame for the rest of your life,
wishing for Alzheimers so you can forget.

If anybody has proof otherwise, post the link. Shame is so hard to prove
these days. Perhaps we have some dimentia experts??



"Puckdropper" puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote in message
news:4c1582e4$0$1474
Insurance issues aside, $25 for an inspection is cheap. Assuming you
have a good inspector, getting your work looked at by a professional for
$25 is cheap.

Puckdropper


...
"Bill" wrote in
:



If you would have had to make a fire-related claim with your home
owners insurance company
you may have been up a creek (worth the risk?).

I don't want to waste the approximately $600/yr I spend for my
coverage. Where I live, the permit is $25--cheaper than pills to help
me sleep. Not only that, the idea pleases SWMBO! : ) Not only that,
I've never worked through the process
before so I will learn something from it. From my perspective, I don't
see a big downside.
I want to emphasize: YMMV!

Bill

In my area that is exactly what would happpen and is right on the money
legally and logically.
Be vague and let them demand more detail. You would be dealing with a clerk
that wants a little more cash for her next promotion Brownie points (not the
marijuana kind though).


"Bill" wrote in message
...
I find out ASAP.
TYVM!

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...

::: document printed :::

If you have to say anything about electrical, you may be able to get by
with the statement that all electrical work will be performed to NEC (or
local codes), and inspected by certified electrical inspectors.

In article , "Josepi" X-Complaints-to: wrote:
Here what happens with the insurance companies, typically.

[fantasy snipped]

Perhaps you'd care to cite some evidence that the imaginary scenario you
describe has ever actually happened in real life, even once, to anyone.

On 6/14/10 8:58 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
In , "Josepi"X-Complaints-to: wrote:
Here what happens with the insurance companies, typically.

[fantasy snipped]

Perhaps you'd care to cite some evidence that the imaginary scenario you
describe has ever actually happened in real life, even once, to anyone.


I don't get how people fall for that urban myth.

Logically, it makes no sense. Inspections are done to insure proper
wiring because proper wiring means your house won't burn down... due
to improper wiring. If your house won't burn down due to improper
wiring, there is no risk involved, which means you would never need
insurance for it.

Yet, every year, there are probably thousands of insurance claims paid
out for house fires that were deemed by a fire marshal to be due to
improper wiring. I don't think you will ever see a fire marshal report
that lists the cause of fire as, "proper wiring." So if an insurance
company won't pay a claim based on "improper wiring" or "lack of
inspection," then they would never pay a claim for an electrical fire.

I suspect that insurance companies insure houses specifically FOR
improper wiring,
because that's precisely why you freakin need insurance in the first place.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Josepi wrote:
Here what happens with the insurance companies, typically.

- You have a fire
- Fire Marshal (Chief Fire Inspector with insurance company hanging
on his every word...waiting) checks in and says "Careless smoking!",
You reply "No, nobody smokes here!".
- Fire Marshal then states "Official cause of fire is bad wiring"
**BIG STAMP ON PAGE** (before all the nonsense boys double their
ritalin injections - I have been there)
- Your insurance company looks into permit records and finds no
record of wiring permit to add recent updates. They don't want to
pay, readily. May drag out for a few years plus a few sleepless
nights.
- Your insurance company has to pay, probably by law
- Your insurance comes up for renewal and they won't look at you.
- You run to other insurance compaines and they share records.
- You live without insuance and your mortgage company theatens you to
pay-up now.
- You reach deep into investments and get a second job.
- You post here and they all laugh at you.

BTW: The $75 fee will totally break the budget on your $20,000 update,
cancel the whole deal and, you will live in shame for the rest of
your life, wishing for Alzheimers so you can forget.

If anybody has proof otherwise, post the link. Shame is so hard to
prove these days. Perhaps we have some dimentia experts??


Good lord you have an active imagination.

--

-Mike-

On 6/14/2010 12:23 PM, Bill wrote:
*** All bets down ***

Since I don't have to have the power turned off at the meter to make my
modifications, a permit is not required.
They handed me my check back.

*** Take the pass, pay the don'ts ***


Comment: I had to go to the county level ("Builing and Zoning Department")
as, although I have a city mailing address, technically my area is not
incorporated as a part of the city. YMMV


Magic word ... "unincorporated".

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

I got to get my "hands dirty" this week! I took down most of the drywall on my
long wall up to 7' high. The ceiling is 8.5' high, but I thought that stopping
at less than 8' would make replacing the drywall easier (I can always remove
more..). A pro would have probably used a skilsaw, but my Harbor Freight rotary
tool, along with a box-cutter, cut pretty well, if a little (i.e. alot) slower.
This was basically my first time removing any drywall at all, so I took my time.
I quickly learned the axiom, "A hammer is your friend"!

I also removed an existing 50-Amp outlet from the wall. I validated the outlet's
deadness with my voltometer before I touched anything. I made a special trip to
the store to buy connectors (the largest ones I could find!) which I put on the
end of each of the wires (perfect fit) and I taped each of them at least 3"
down. I did this even though the C-Breaker will stay turned off and I must give
some of the Wrecker's most of the credit for giving me the right perspective to
so gingerly protect my dead wires (Lew: I wish my main panel had a lock!).
Swingman: I also picked up a outlet tester *with GFCI* while I was at the store!
I will completely remove that wire and its corresponding C-breaker from the main
panel soon, and I will do so while the main circuit breaker is turned off.


Most of what I wrote above above is feedback. I am seeking your assistance with
the following concerns to help me proceed: I have been reading and thinking
about running wires, running boards and stapling. I also learned a convenient
term: "double top plate"--the entry and exit points to my attic will be through
it. The truth is that since my wires will only be traveling through my attic
near my eave (basicly unaccessible), the NEC would probably permit me to place
new wires next to the one that is currrently lying there. However, seeking to
do things in a craftman-like way, I would prefer to use a running board. I have
been thinking about how I am going to run/staple three 10-2 and two 12-2 or 12-3
cables along my current path: from my subpanel, up through the double top plate
(how many holes, how big), along the running board and back down through the
double top plate. I learned, in particular, that I *do not want to derate* my
wires!!!--at least I would prefer not to. I suppose I can learn the math and
buy bigger wire if I must. BTW, My initial inclinations were to drill a hole
through the double top plate for the 12 gauge wires and another hole for the 10
guage wires (as the grouped wires have similar destinations). All 5 or 6 of
these will be traveling together out of the subpanel and accross the running
board where they will exit the attic "together" (but perhaps not too closely
together!).

Any assistance you may be able to provide me with about this is welcome and
appreciated! I hope that something of what I have written may be insightful to
others who are seeking to add power to their shop.

Bill

Sounds like you are well on your way!! The first blow with the hammer was
the hardest! YIKES!!

I have learned the hard way many times about running 14/2 cables (general
home wiring) and drilling holes. Everytime I feel a 1/2" hole will be fine
the cable is hard to pull through it if any angle is encurred and after
having to add that last minute change and drilling another right beside it,
I , again decide, never to drill less than 3/4" ones again!...LOL

A long spade bit with extension works well. It
avoids chips in your eyes if overhead or high run,
allows you to come in on a fairly straight angle without the next joist/
truss pushing your drill out,
allows a better "in-line" view so your holes do not go up and down.

- Drill the furthest one and work your way backward so the previous is
always in site or ping chalk lines to get your holes lined up.
- Check other sides of lumber **EVERY TIME** for existing wires and pipes!!!
- Square your runs off with lumber (right angle corners for neatness) extra
slack may be needed for adjustments
- staple down wires within 6" of every box (code here)..when you step on one
in the attic you won't pull the connection apart inside the box.
- leave some slack around the box. You break a wire off inside, you'll
apreciate it.
- Keep pass though holes back 1.5" of drywall or finishing surface (nail
avoidance). violations get steel plate on surface under drywall.
- drill individual holes for larger cables. ALl conductors need cooling.
Three 2 wire cables (6 conductors) in any hole so there is always cooling to
each conductor inside-
- before insulating shoot foam into the ceiling holes to re-vapour barrier.

I am not sure were you will used the running board..in attic or on ceiling.
Usually there are enough lumber pieces in the attic to follow with a cable.
Across the trusses is a good place for one. Nail it to bottom truss web and
nail cables to sides = no feet on cable to stretch it.

Dont' forget speaker cables, Ethernet (CAT5 or 5e or 6), intercom, phone,
remote control for dust collector, thermostats... video camera security
cables, weather vane, wind turbine, exhaust port in eaves...think hard and
take your time.









"Bill" wrote in message
...

I got to get my "hands dirty" this week! I took down most of the drywall on
my
long wall up to 7' high. The ceiling is 8.5' high, but I thought that
stopping
at less than 8' would make replacing the drywall easier (I can always remove
more..). A pro would have probably used a skilsaw, but my Harbor Freight
rotary
tool, along with a box-cutter, cut pretty well, if a little (i.e. alot)
slower.
This was basically my first time removing any drywall at all, so I took my
time.
I quickly learned the axiom, "A hammer is your friend"!

I also removed an existing 50-Amp outlet from the wall. I validated the
outlet's
deadness with my voltometer before I touched anything. I made a special trip
to
the store to buy connectors (the largest ones I could find!) which I put on
the
end of each of the wires (perfect fit) and I taped each of them at least 3"
down. I did this even though the C-Breaker will stay turned off and I must
give
some of the Wrecker's most of the credit for giving me the right perspective
to
so gingerly protect my dead wires (Lew: I wish my main panel had a lock!).
Swingman: I also picked up a outlet tester *with GFCI* while I was at the
store!
I will completely remove that wire and its corresponding C-breaker from the
main
panel soon, and I will do so while the main circuit breaker is turned off.


Most of what I wrote above above is feedback. I am seeking your assistance
with
the following concerns to help me proceed: I have been reading and thinking
about running wires, running boards and stapling. I also learned a
convenient
term: "double top plate"--the entry and exit points to my attic will be
through
it. The truth is that since my wires will only be traveling through my
attic
near my eave (basicly unaccessible), the NEC would probably permit me to
place
new wires next to the one that is currrently lying there. However, seeking
to
do things in a craftman-like way, I would prefer to use a running board. I
have
been thinking about how I am going to run/staple three 10-2 and two 12-2 or
12-3
cables along my current path: from my subpanel, up through the double top
plate
(how many holes, how big), along the running board and back down through
the
double top plate. I learned, in particular, that I *do not want to derate*
my
wires!!!--at least I would prefer not to. I suppose I can learn the math
and
buy bigger wire if I must. BTW, My initial inclinations were to drill a
hole
through the double top plate for the 12 gauge wires and another hole for the
10
guage wires (as the grouped wires have similar destinations). All 5 or 6 of
these will be traveling together out of the subpanel and accross the running
board where they will exit the attic "together" (but perhaps not too closely
together!).

Any assistance you may be able to provide me with about this is welcome and
appreciated! I hope that something of what I have written may be
insightful to
others who are seeking to add power to their shop.

Bill

On Sat, 19 Jun 2010 18:48:08 -0400, "Josepi" wrote:

Sounds like you are well on your way!! The first blow with the hammer was
the hardest! YIKES!!

I have learned the hard way many times about running 14/2 cables (general
home wiring) and drilling holes. Everytime I feel a 1/2" hole will be fine
the cable is hard to pull through it if any angle is encurred and after
having to add that last minute change and drilling another right beside it,
I , again decide, never to drill less than 3/4" ones again!...LOL

"General home wiring"? 14/2? Well, I guess for lighting circuits, it's OK.
I'd *never* use it for anything else, though.

A long spade bit with extension works well. It
avoids chips in your eyes if overhead or high run,
allows you to come in on a fairly straight angle without the next joist/
truss pushing your drill out,
allows a better "in-line" view so your holes do not go up and down.

I much prefer a "stubby" self-feeding auger, intended for the purpose. They
eat right through and you can get the drill and bit between most joists. If
you drill in the center of the joist (where you should be), you don't "go up
or down".

snip

On 19 Jun 2010 14:25:42 -0700, Bill wrote
the following:


I got to get my "hands dirty" this week! I took down most of the drywall on my
long wall up to 7' high. The ceiling is 8.5' high, but I thought that stopping
at less than 8' would make replacing the drywall easier (I can always remove
more..). A pro would have probably used a skilsaw, but my Harbor Freight rotary
tool, along with a box-cutter, cut pretty well, if a little (i.e. alot) slower.
This was basically my first time removing any drywall at all, so I took my time.
I quickly learned the axiom, "A hammer is your friend"!

I removed a 2' square of drywall last month to put supports in for a
shower grab handle. I used the HF Multifunction tool with the rounded
blade and it was absolutely the best, safest, least-dusty method I've
ever used to cut drywall. That one use paid for the saw, I swear!
My one go-round with a live 240v circuit cost me $100, at a client's
home, too. Embarrassing. I had cut the inside drywall out, felt the
cavity, but didn't remove the insulation. Because of the insulation,
I missed the flatwire cable for the water heater. The result was
blinding as I ran the Tiger saw through the outer wall and into the
wire as I cut the rectangular hole for the microwave and stove vent.
Oops!


I also removed an existing 50-Amp outlet from the wall. I validated the outlet's
deadness with my voltometer before I touched anything. I made a special trip to
the store to buy connectors (the largest ones I could find!) which I put on the
end of each of the wires (perfect fit) and I taped each of them at least 3"
down. I did this even though the C-Breaker will stay turned off and I must give
some of the Wrecker's most of the credit for giving me the right perspective to
so gingerly protect my dead wires (Lew: I wish my main panel had a lock!).
Swingman: I also picked up a outlet tester *with GFCI* while I was at the store!
I will completely remove that wire and its corresponding C-breaker from the main
panel soon, and I will do so while the main circuit breaker is turned off.

I picked up a Greenlee variable voltage tick from Amazon the other
day. 5-1000v. It's a bit touchy, but the variable sensitivity dials
out false positives. It beeps and the bright LED glows when you get
close to an active circuit. this $13 item would have saved me that
Benjy. sigh

Ask a local electrician about hole size and runningboards for your
area, Bill. I usually use a 3/4" Jennings for my wiring through studs
and topplates, and I prefer to keep wiring separated and use insulated
staples on Romex, but IANAE.

--
Peace of mind is that mental condition in which you have accepted the worst.
-- Lin Yutang

Thank you for your reply. It contains a lot of good information!

Josepi wrote:
Sounds like you are well on your way!! The first blow with the hammer was
the hardest! YIKES!!

Yes, I think we've discussed how difficult it can be to "start" here
before. After a few days of procrastinating, working on other things, I
made a list one evening, and it was easy as 1, 2, 3 the next day. I
think I didn't work so fast, because I wasn't so sure about Steps 4, 5
and 6! Perhaps procrastinating a bit after Step 2, I went on a 90
minute shopping trip to Menards and made a very detailed list of
virtually everything I thought I needed. Evidentally 240v, 20Amp
outlets are not popular, as I did not find what I was looking for
stocked. I thought I wanted the 3-prong type and The only ones they had
were ones which lock with a twist (still 3-prong).



I , again decide, never to drill less than 3/4" ones again!...LOL

3/4" sounded "right" to me to. I was planning to drill a practice hole
before I committed myself to see how well the cables fit! : )



A long spade bit with extension works well. It
avoids chips in your eyes if overhead or high run,
allows you to come in on a fairly straight angle without the next joist/
truss pushing your drill out,
allows a better "in-line" view so your holes do not go up and down.

Yes, I've also read in more than one place about the "importance" of
getting your holes lined up. They even suggested a jig (prop) to
assist. Most of the holes I need to drill will be through the studs in
the garage wall.



- Drill the furthest one and work your way backward so the previous is
always in site or ping chalk lines to get your holes lined up.

Yes!


- drill individual holes for larger cables. ALl conductors need cooling.
Three 2 wire cables (6 conductors) in any hole so there is always cooling to
each conductor inside-

Three 10-2 Romex cables in one hole okay?



- before insulating shoot foam into the ceiling holes to re-vapour barrier.

Thank you for mentioning that --that wasn't even on my list!



I am not sure were you will used the running board..in attic or on ceiling.
Usually there are enough lumber pieces in the attic to follow with a cable.
Across the trusses is a good place for one. Nail it to bottom truss web and
nail cables to sides = no feet on cable to stretch it.

Attic. As the cable has to go perpendicular to the floor joists and many
of them are already covered with flooring, I latched onto the idea of a
"running board" when Mike Marlow first mentioned it. If I understand
what you wrote concerning where to locate it, is across the bottom of
the rafters, a few inches above the flooring, part of the "bottom truss
web"? The roof does not leak but should the proximity to the elements
via the roofing nails be of concern?

It is good that no feet will be able to stretch the wire, but I think it
should be protected so that no one can push a box against it as well. I
have seen the idea of building a "U-shaped" running board proposed. 6
cables across an 6"-8" wide board? If the location I identified above
is okay, I would consider nailing the wires with the plastic backed
staples to the running board with great care not to damage any wires,
and then "screwing" the running board to the rafters in case it may ever
need to be modified.



Dont' forget speaker cables, Ethernet (CAT5 or 5e or 6), intercom, phone,
remote control for dust collector, thermostats... video camera security
cables, weather vane, wind turbine, exhaust port in eaves...think hard and
take your time.

Gosh, that's the type of thinking that got me where I am now--and that
was "just" over electricity and lighting. You have a vivid
imagination--maybe you are in sales? : ) It occurred to me this week
that it would be nice to have a shop radio--don't laugh I just got a
sturdy wooden "shop chair" last week. After seeing how hot it gets, I
have to wonder where "air conditioning" might fit onto a list. I will
probably have to make-do with a shop fan. That would go well with all
of that dry-wall dust I'm making! : ) I already noticed white tracks
throughout the house the other day--burglars!!! I cleaned them up
before SWMBO came home!

Bill

Larry Jaques wrote:
Because of the insulation,
I missed the flatwire cable for the water heater. The result was
blinding as I ran the Tiger saw through the outer wall and into the
wire as I cut the rectangular hole for the microwave and stove vent.

We're human, huh? Accidents can happen sooo easily. I was recently
accused of worrying too much. Me, can you imagine that! : )

Bill

On Sun, 20 Jun 2010 00:15:46 -0400, Bill wrote:

Thank you for your reply. It contains a lot of good information!

Josepi wrote:
Sounds like you are well on your way!! The first blow with the hammer was
the hardest! YIKES!!

Yes, I think we've discussed how difficult it can be to "start" here
before. After a few days of procrastinating, working on other things, I
made a list one evening, and it was easy as 1, 2, 3 the next day. I
think I didn't work so fast, because I wasn't so sure about Steps 4, 5
and 6! Perhaps procrastinating a bit after Step 2, I went on a 90
minute shopping trip to Menards and made a very detailed list of
virtually everything I thought I needed. Evidentally 240v, 20Amp
outlets are not popular, as I did not find what I was looking for
stocked. I thought I wanted the 3-prong type and The only ones they had
were ones which lock with a twist (still 3-prong).

We don't have a Menard's here (they have them where my brother lives), but a
20A 240V outlet should be pretty common. HD and Lowes carry them here,
several varieties.

I , again decide, never to drill less than 3/4" ones again!...LOL

3/4" sounded "right" to me to. I was planning to drill a practice hole
before I committed myself to see how well the cables fit! : )

I generally use 5/8" for 12/2 or 12/3. 3/4" should be fine, too.


A long spade bit with extension works well. It
avoids chips in your eyes if overhead or high run,
allows you to come in on a fairly straight angle without the next joist/
truss pushing your drill out,
allows a better "in-line" view so your holes do not go up and down.

Yes, I've also read in more than one place about the "importance" of
getting your holes lined up. They even suggested a jig (prop) to
assist. Most of the holes I need to drill will be through the studs in
the garage wall.

Drill them in the center, if at all possible.

- Drill the furthest one and work your way backward so the previous is
always in site or ping chalk lines to get your holes lined up.

Yes!


- drill individual holes for larger cables. ALl conductors need cooling.
Three 2 wire cables (6 conductors) in any hole so there is always cooling to
each conductor inside-

Three 10-2 Romex cables in one hole okay?

I wouldn't. Three small holes (centered) are better than one big one.


- before insulating shoot foam into the ceiling holes to re-vapour barrier.

Thank you for mentioning that --that wasn't even on my list!



I am not sure were you will used the running board..in attic or on ceiling.
Usually there are enough lumber pieces in the attic to follow with a cable.
Across the trusses is a good place for one. Nail it to bottom truss web and
nail cables to sides = no feet on cable to stretch it.

Attic. As the cable has to go perpendicular to the floor joists and many
of them are already covered with flooring, I latched onto the idea of a
"running board" when Mike Marlow first mentioned it. If I understand
what you wrote concerning where to locate it, is across the bottom of
the rafters, a few inches above the flooring, part of the "bottom truss
web"? The roof does not leak but should the proximity to the elements
via the roofing nails be of concern?

At the bottom of the rafters? That's some long nails! ;-)

It is good that no feet will be able to stretch the wire, but I think it
should be protected so that no one can push a box against it as well. I
have seen the idea of building a "U-shaped" running board proposed. 6
cables across an 6"-8" wide board? If the location I identified above
is okay, I would consider nailing the wires with the plastic backed
staples to the running board with great care not to damage any wires,
and then "screwing" the running board to the rafters in case it may ever
need to be modified.

I thought your attic was trussed? If so, you shouldn't be storing anything up
there. Trusses can take very little "floor load".


Dont' forget speaker cables, Ethernet (CAT5 or 5e or 6), intercom, phone,
remote control for dust collector, thermostats... video camera security
cables, weather vane, wind turbine, exhaust port in eaves...think hard and
take your time.

Gosh, that's the type of thinking that got me where I am now--and that
was "just" over electricity and lighting. You have a vivid
imagination--maybe you are in sales? : ) It occurred to me this week
that it would be nice to have a shop radio--don't laugh I just got a
sturdy wooden "shop chair" last week. After seeing how hot it gets, I
have to wonder where "air conditioning" might fit onto a list. I will
probably have to make-do with a shop fan. That would go well with all
of that dry-wall dust I'm making! : ) I already noticed white tracks
throughout the house the other day--burglars!!! I cleaned them up
before SWMBO came home!

Ho boy, I see trouble in your future!

Yes, it is the wrong time of the year for such things. I worked seven hours
in the attic today, trying to get things sealed up so I can put the temporary
floor back in. It'll take a couple more hours tomorrow, then I can move all
the junk back into the attic space. In the Fall I'll start over with the
walls and the real (sub) floor. I figure Winter will be a good time to
insulate the walls and ceiling. ;-)

Suggestion for your AC/heat... I'm looking into the "mini split" heat pumps
for my attic shop. They're in the $1K to $2K region, without installation, a
lot of it I hope I can do (just starting research mode). Tapping into my
upstairs air handler would be a piece of cake (it's in the area that is going
to be the shop), but circulating dust doesn't sound like a way to make SWMBO
happy. These "mini split" systems might just be the ticket. I should be able
to use my tools year 'round then, instead of just three months in the Spring
and Fall.

On Sun, 20 Jun 2010 00:15:46 -0400, Bill wrote the
following:

Thank you for your reply. It contains a lot of good information!

Josepi wrote:
Sounds like you are well on your way!! The first blow with the hammer was
the hardest! YIKES!!

Yes, I think we've discussed how difficult it can be to "start" here
before. After a few days of procrastinating, working on other things, I
made a list one evening, and it was easy as 1, 2, 3 the next day. I
think I didn't work so fast, because I wasn't so sure about Steps 4, 5
and 6! Perhaps procrastinating a bit after Step 2, I went on a 90
minute shopping trip to Menards and made a very detailed list of
virtually everything I thought I needed. Evidentally 240v, 20Amp
outlets are not popular, as I did not find what I was looking for
stocked. I thought I wanted the 3-prong type and The only ones they had
were ones which lock with a twist (still 3-prong).

I prefer them. L6-20 for my 240v circuits I installed in my shop when
I moved in.


I , again decide, never to drill less than 3/4" ones again!...LOL

3/4" sounded "right" to me to. I was planning to drill a practice hole
before I committed myself to see how well the cables fit! : )

My fave size.

A long spade bit with extension works well. It
avoids chips in your eyes if overhead or high run,
allows you to come in on a fairly straight angle without the next joist/
truss pushing your drill out,
allows a better "in-line" view so your holes do not go up and down.

Yes, I've also read in more than one place about the "importance" of
getting your holes lined up. They even suggested a jig (prop) to
assist. Most of the holes I need to drill will be through the studs in
the garage wall.

Cut a V in a piece of tubafore and rest your auger on it, eh?
I like a 50" height. It's always over bench/table/stand height.


- Drill the furthest one and work your way backward so the previous is
always in site or ping chalk lines to get your holes lined up.

Yes!



- drill individual holes for larger cables. ALl conductors need cooling.
Three 2 wire cables (6 conductors) in any hole so there is always cooling to
each conductor inside-

Three 10-2 Romex cables in one hole okay?

I'm a 1-hole/1-wire kinda guy. If the NEC won't let you put Romex
into a conduit, why stuff wires together at all? Remember that when
you're in a workshop, most of your plugins are high-amp tools. Act
accordingly, eh?


- before insulating shoot foam into the ceiling holes to re-vapour barrier.

Thank you for mentioning that --that wasn't even on my list!

They have a special foam for wiring use, too. It's fluorescent
orange, so the inspector can tell it's the correct stuff. It doesn't
melt as easily if there's a fire so your upper walls/attic stay safer
longer in the event of a fire.
http://cableorganizer.com/abesco-fire-rated-foam/


Dont' forget speaker cables, Ethernet (CAT5 or 5e or 6), intercom, phone,
remote control for dust collector, thermostats... video camera security
cables, weather vane, wind turbine, exhaust port in eaves...think hard and
take your time.

Gosh, that's the type of thinking that got me where I am now--and that
was "just" over electricity and lighting. You have a vivid
imagination--maybe you are in sales? : )



It occurred to me this week
that it would be nice to have a shop radio--don't laugh I just got a
sturdy wooden "shop chair" last week.

Those are two things you really don't need in a shop. The radio takes
your attention away from sharp spinny things which are often reaching
for your fingers, and the chair lets you goof off too much. Calculate
in the office, not the shop.


After seeing how hot it gets, I
have to wonder where "air conditioning" might fit onto a list. I will
probably have to make-do with a shop fan. That would go well with all

I convinced the HVAC guys that I wouldn't be parking in the new shop,
so they let me vent an A/C (and heat) into the 2-car shop. I installed
18 brand new holes in the door to the utility room (house side) and
put Filtrete filters over them. It stays down to 80F during 105+
summer days and at 55F or above in the winter at 17F outside. HVAC
for the shop is absolutely wonderful. Just Do It!


of that dry-wall dust I'm making! : ) I already noticed white tracks
throughout the house the other day--burglars!!! I cleaned them up
before SWMBO came home!

It's TOOL TIME! Time for a HEPA dust collector, Bill. Leave those
tracks the next time and when SWMBO screams, offer to buy a dust
collector which nabs every bit of dust. She'll jump/you get the new
toy. Win/win, wot?


--
Peace of mind is that mental condition in which you have accepted the worst.
-- Lin Yutang

zzzzzzzzzz wrote:

At the bottom of the rafters? That's some long nails! ;-)

My parents referred to the ceiling joists as rafters, so evidently I've
had to undo some incorrect learning. I tried to be accurate today. I
probably should have said something about where the ceiling joists meet
the rafters. Thank you for helping me to get it right!


I thought your attic was trussed? If so, you shouldn't be storing anything up
there. Trusses can take very little "floor load".

It's "mostly open" so I take it that it's not trussed. I apologize if I
have misused some basic terminology.


Suggestion for your AC/heat... I'm looking into the "mini split" heat pumps
for my attic shop. They're in the $1K to $2K region, without installation, a
lot of it I hope I can do (just starting research mode).

I'll take a look. I would be interested in reading about your
experience here if you try it. At this point, the electrical aspect of
it hardly intimidates me at all! However, at some point one must start
counting amperes...I should be as concerned about my caloric intake! : )

Bill

Larry Jaques wrote:

Three 10-2 Romex cables in one hole okay?

I'm a 1-hole/1-wire kinda guy. If the NEC won't let you put Romex
into a conduit, why stuff wires together at all? Remember that when
you're in a workshop, most of your plugins are high-amp tools. Act
accordingly, eh?

Makes sense to me; simple is good. I assume that you employ that same
reasoning where the cable enters the panel too.

Logically, the trickiest part of my project left may be dealing with the
existing outlets I don't want. I need to spend a little more time up
there, like krw does, and get my existing current flow completely
figured out. I think it would also help to have a big "dental mirror"
(seriously!). BTDT?

Bill

Somebody wrote:

Three 10-2 Romex cables in one hole okay?
--------------------
NO!!!

Lew

In article , zzzzzzzzzz
I worked seven hours
in the attic today, trying to get things sealed up so I can put the temporary
floor back in. It'll take a couple more hours tomorrow, then I can move all
the junk back into the attic space. In the Fall I'll start over with the
walls and the real (sub) floor. I figure Winter will be a good time to
insulate the walls and ceiling. ;-)

You make me feel like I don't have it so bad. Maybe I will earn more "attic
time" when I get to my new lighting. Good luck finishing up tomorrow.

Bill

"Larry Jaques" wrote

They have a special foam for wiring use, too. It's fluorescent
orange, so the inspector can tell it's the correct stuff. It doesn't
melt as easily if there's a fire so your upper walls/attic stay safer
longer in the event of a fire.
http://cableorganizer.com/abesco-fire-rated-foam/

Hey, good website. I got some big workstations and a couple other projects I
have to wire up and they have some goodies that could help. I filed this one
away.


Those are two things you really don't need in a shop. The radio takes
your attention away from sharp spinny things which are often reaching
for your fingers, and the chair lets you goof off too much. Calculate
in the office, not the shop.

I got a "shop stool" at a garage sale and it turned into a bar stool of
sorts. Ya know, you sit on it and nothing much happens. I needed the space,
threw it out and my productivity went up. Go figure.

On 6/20/2010 2:55 AM, Lee Michaels wrote:
"Larry Jaques" wrote

They have a special foam for wiring use, too. It's fluorescent
orange, so the inspector can tell it's the correct stuff. It doesn't
melt as easily if there's a fire so your upper walls/attic stay safer
longer in the event of a fire.
http://cableorganizer.com/abesco-fire-rated-foam/

Hey, good website. I got some big workstations and a couple other projects I
have to wire up and they have some goodies that could help. I filed this one
away.


Those are two things you really don't need in a shop. The radio takes
your attention away from sharp spinny things which are often reaching
for your fingers, and the chair lets you goof off too much. Calculate
in the office, not the shop.

I got a "shop stool" at a garage sale and it turned into a bar stool of
sorts. Ya know, you sit on it and nothing much happens. I needed the space,
threw it out and my productivity went up. Go figure.

Burt Rutan in the plans for the LongEZ suggests that the "thinking
chair" is an essential piece of equipment. I suspect that few of us are
as productive as Burt Rutan.

Larry Jaques wrote:


I'm a 1-hole/1-wire kinda guy. If the NEC won't let you put Romex
into a conduit, why stuff wires together at all? Remember that when
you're in a workshop, most of your plugins are high-amp tools. Act
accordingly, eh?

No problem running multiple romex runs through one hole. That's quite
different from running in an enclosed conduit. I do not know the maximum
number of 12/2 runs permitted in any given size hole, without looking it up,
but I stick to 3 as my rule of thumb, and I bore 1" holes. Larry's approach
negates the following thought, but if you are going to run multiple runs
through one hole, never find yourself having to pull hard to run a wire. If
you do - time for a new hole.


I convinced the HVAC guys that I wouldn't be parking in the new shop,
so they let me vent an A/C (and heat) into the 2-car shop. I installed
18 brand new holes in the door to the utility room (house side) and
put Filtrete filters over them. It stays down to 80F during 105+
summer days and at 55F or above in the winter at 17F outside. HVAC
for the shop is absolutely wonderful. Just Do It!



I'm chiming in with Larry! For the most part - no AC in mine, but heat in
the winter - priceless. I spend lots of time in my garage doing everything
from woodworking, to body work, to mechanical, to fabrication - and it is so
nice to just bump the thermostat and not worry about wearing a jacket, etc.

--

-Mike-

In article , Bill wrote:
[...]

3/4" sounded "right" to me to. I was planning to drill a practice hole
before I committed myself to see how well the cables fit! : )

3/4" is overkill for most NM cabling. 1/2" is ample for one or two 14-2 or one
14-3; 5/8" quite sufficient for one or two 12-2 or one 12-3. Why bother
drilling smaller holes, you may ask? It's faster. And it doesn't drain the
battery in your cordless drill as quickly.
[...]
Three 10-2 Romex cables in one hole okay?

As long as the hole is big enough to put the cables through it without kinking
or damaging them, sure. AFAIK, the Code doesn't mention anything at all about
minimum hole size through wood framing.

Attic. As the cable has to go perpendicular to the floor joists and many
of them are already covered with flooring, I latched onto the idea of a
"running board" when Mike Marlow first mentioned it. If I understand
what you wrote concerning where to locate it, is across the bottom of
the rafters, a few inches above the flooring, part of the "bottom truss
web"?

It can be wherever you like: near the floor, near the ceiling, or anywhere in
between, including run diagonally or in a logarithmic curve. It doesn't
matter.

The roof does not leak but should the proximity to the elements
via the roofing nails be of concern?

No.

It is good that no feet will be able to stretch the wire, but I think it
should be protected so that no one can push a box against it as well.

Correct.

I have seen the idea of building a "U-shaped" running board proposed.

Not necessary. Why make more work for yourself?

6 cables across an 6"-8" wide board?

No problem. A 1x6 should be fine.

If the location I identified above
is okay, I would consider nailing the wires with the plastic backed
staples to the running board with great care not to damage any wires,
and then "screwing" the running board to the rafters in case it may ever
need to be modified.

Three comments about that plan:
1) Wrong order. Attach the running board to the rafters first, then the cables
to the board. First, that way you don't risk damaging the cables as you attach
the board; second, I don't think you've considered the difficulty of attaching
the boards with half a dozen cables hanging off of them....
2) No real point in using screws. If it ever "needs to be modified", just
install a new running board and leave the old one in place. *By far* the
hardest part of modifying it later will be moving the cables. Whatever you do
with the running board at that time pales into insignificance by comparison.
3) Why bother with the plastic-backed staples? Code permits plain metal
staples such as these
http://www.amazon.com/NM-Cable-Stapl.../dp/B002CM2IPY
which are much cheaper, and *far* easier to install.

In article , lid wrote:

If the NEC won't let you put Romex into a conduit

A common misconception.

There is *nothing* in the NEC which prohibits putting NM ("Romex") in conduit;
quite the contrary, in fact: Article 334.15(B) _explicitly requires_ putting
it in conduit for "protect[ion] from physical damage where necessary".

In article , "Lew Hodgett" wrote:
Somebody wrote:

Three 10-2 Romex cables in one hole okay?
--------------------
NO!!!

Nonsense. Of course it is, as long as the hole is big enough to do it without
damaging the cables. 3/4" may be a bit tight, but 7/8" is sufficient.

Trusses would typically have "Webs" installed between any long runs of
outside framing and 2 x 6 bottom rafters or smaller. If they are a "stick
roof" then the bottom rafter has to be large enough lumber to carry the
ceiling weight for that long span, itself and would be a 2 x8 or larger for
more than 10-12 feet. I would have to look up the span chart in the building
code to give you exact sizes here but you get the idea.

Basically, if you have a wide ceiling (more than 12') and there is no
vertical web pieces than you would not have trusses. It won't matter as
trusses or stick roof they can carry some load. I wouldn't store 100 lb up
there though.



"Bill" wrote in message
...
zzzzzzzzzz wrote:

At the bottom of the rafters? That's some long nails! ;-)

My parents referred to the ceiling joists as rafters, so evidently I've
had to undo some incorrect learning. I tried to be accurate today. I
probably should have said something about where the ceiling joists meet
the rafters. Thank you for helping me to get it right!


I thought your attic was trussed? If so, you shouldn't be storing
anything up
there. Trusses can take very little "floor load".

It's "mostly open" so I take it that it's not trussed. I apologize if I
have misused some basic terminology.


Suggestion for your AC/heat... I'm looking into the "mini split" heat
pumps
for my attic shop. They're in the $1K to $2K region, without
installation, a
lot of it I hope I can do (just starting research mode).

I'll take a look. I would be interested in reading about your
experience here if you try it. At this point, the electrical aspect of
it hardly intimidates me at all! However, at some point one must start
counting amperes...I should be as concerned about my caloric intake! : )

Bill

On 6/20/2010 7:57 AM, Doug Miller wrote:

As long as the hole is big enough to put the cables through it without kinking
or damaging them, sure. AFAIK, the Code doesn't mention anything at all about
minimum hole size through wood framing.

One caveat for drilling bigger holes in a typical tubafour stud frame is
the larger hole may require the use of nail plates if they end up less
than 1 1/4" from the edge.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Sun, 20 Jun 2010 02:21:17 -0400, Bill wrote the
following:

Larry Jaques wrote:

Three 10-2 Romex cables in one hole okay?

I'm a 1-hole/1-wire kinda guy. If the NEC won't let you put Romex
into a conduit, why stuff wires together at all? Remember that when
you're in a workshop, most of your plugins are high-amp tools. Act
accordingly, eh?

Makes sense to me; simple is good. I assume that you employ that same
reasoning where the cable enters the panel too.

I prolly would if it didn't make the panel look like Swiss cheese. I
did open other pre-sliced orifices, though.


Logically, the trickiest part of my project left may be dealing with the
existing outlets I don't want.

The NEC says "depower the wiring, insulate and tag the wiring ends if
left (safely out of the way) in the box, and cover the outlets", I
believe.


I need to spend a little more time up
there, like krw does, and get my existing current flow completely
figured out. I think it would also help to have a big "dental mirror"
(seriously!). BTDT?

I have, but haven't yet shoveled out the sheckels for one of these:
http://fwd4.me/TdM These cost a grand the last I checked.

or even one of these:
http://fwd4.me/TdJ WOW! Those were $300 the last time I looked.

I love technology at commodity levels!

--
Peace of mind is that mental condition in which you have accepted the worst.
-- Lin Yutang

On Sun, 20 Jun 2010 02:55:32 -0400, "Lee Michaels"
wrote the following:


"Larry Jaques" wrote

They have a special foam for wiring use, too. It's fluorescent
orange, so the inspector can tell it's the correct stuff. It doesn't
melt as easily if there's a fire so your upper walls/attic stay safer
longer in the event of a fire.
http://cableorganizer.com/abesco-fire-rated-foam/

Hey, good website. I got some big workstations and a couple other projects I
have to wire up and they have some goodies that could help. I filed this one
away.

That was the first usable Googlized link I found yesterday. "I utilize
expensive sites like that to find products, then purchase them
elsewhere at half or 1/3 the price." frugalled Larry.


Those are two things you really don't need in a shop. The radio takes
your attention away from sharp spinny things which are often reaching
for your fingers, and the chair lets you goof off too much. Calculate
in the office, not the shop.

I got a "shop stool" at a garage sale and it turned into a bar stool of
sorts. Ya know, you sit on it and nothing much happens. I needed the space,
threw it out and my productivity went up. Go figure.

Ditto here. I got the tall, nicely padded/nicely backed stool with the
chrome ring on the bottom (drafting style, I think) and it immediately
became a rest for my staple guns. shrug

--
Peace of mind is that mental condition in which you have accepted the worst.
-- Lin Yutang

Swingman wrote:
On 6/20/2010 7:57 AM, Doug Miller wrote:

As long as the hole is big enough to put the cables through it
without kinking or damaging them, sure. AFAIK, the Code doesn't
mention anything at all about minimum hole size through wood framing.

One caveat for drilling bigger holes in a typical tubafour stud frame
is the larger hole may require the use of nail plates if they end up
less than 1 1/4" from the edge.

True. I use bigger holes to make pulling easier, and to run more through
one hole. That way I don't have to worry about wires running through a lot
of different heights when rock goes on.

--

-Mike-

On 6/20/10 8:04 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
In , lid wrote:

If the NEC won't let you put Romex into a conduit

A common misconception.

There is *nothing* in the NEC which prohibits putting NM ("Romex") in conduit;
quite the contrary, in fact: Article 334.15(B) _explicitly requires_ putting
it in conduit for "protect[ion] from physical damage where necessary".

I did that on the new 220 circuit to my table saw. I was going to use
those separate, loose wires, but the Romex was actually cheaper, and I
needed it for another run.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 6/20/10 11:59 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
As long as the hole is big enough to put the cables through it
without kinking or damaging them, sure. AFAIK, the Code doesn't
mention anything at all about minimum hole size through wood framing.

One caveat for drilling bigger holes in a typical tubafour stud frame
is the larger hole may require the use of nail plates if they end up
less than 1 1/4" from the edge.

True. I use bigger holes to make pulling easier, and to run more through
one hole. That way I don't have to worry about wires running through a lot
of different heights when rock goes on.


The real question is, how many lines can you run through a floor joist
in the basement ceiling, that allows for the most clothing to by hung
from it?

Is that in the NEC? :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Sun, 20 Jun 2010 01:36:55 -0400, Bill wrote:

wrote:

At the bottom of the rafters? That's some long nails! ;-)

My parents referred to the ceiling joists as rafters, so evidently I've
had to undo some incorrect learning. I tried to be accurate today. I
probably should have said something about where the ceiling joists meet
the rafters. Thank you for helping me to get it right!

No, I meant that if your wires are at the bottom of the wood thingy that
supports the roof decking, it's going to be a *long* roofing nail that
penetrates the wire. Even if it's a truss with only 2x4s, that's at least a
4-1/2" nail.

I thought your attic was trussed? If so, you shouldn't be storing anything up
there. Trusses can take very little "floor load".

It's "mostly open" so I take it that it's not trussed. I apologize if I
have misused some basic terminology.

Ok, I just remembered that from some time back in this thread. If it's
"mostly open", it's probably "gabled". Some floor loading is likely OK. You
can look it up, given the span and dimensions/spacing of the joists.

Suggestion for your AC/heat... I'm looking into the "mini split" heat pumps
for my attic shop. They're in the $1K to $2K region, without installation, a
lot of it I hope I can do (just starting research mode).

I'll take a look. I would be interested in reading about your
experience here if you try it. At this point, the electrical aspect of
it hardly intimidates me at all! However, at some point one must start
counting amperes...I should be as concerned about my caloric intake! : )

The one's I'm looking at want a 20A/200V circuit and take about half that.
It's one room, about 400sq. ft., but surrounded by Alabama on five sides.
It'll likely be next spring, or later, before I get that far.

On Sun, 20 Jun 2010 09:48:43 -0400, "Josepi" wrote:

Trusses would typically have "Webs" installed between any long runs of
outside framing and 2 x 6 bottom rafters or smaller. If they are a "stick
roof" then the bottom rafter has to be large enough lumber to carry the
ceiling weight for that long span, itself and would be a 2 x8 or larger for
more than 10-12 feet. I would have to look up the span chart in the building
code to give you exact sizes here but you get the idea.

Basically, if you have a wide ceiling (more than 12') and there is no
vertical web pieces than you would not have trusses. It won't matter as
trusses or stick roof they can carry some load. I wouldn't store 100 lb up
there though.

*NOT* true. Trusses are not typically rated for *any* floor loading. Their
strength is in compression. The web has no strength in tension.

On Sun, 20 Jun 2010 07:26:17 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

On 6/20/2010 2:55 AM, Lee Michaels wrote:
"Larry Jaques" wrote

They have a special foam for wiring use, too. It's fluorescent
orange, so the inspector can tell it's the correct stuff. It doesn't
melt as easily if there's a fire so your upper walls/attic stay safer
longer in the event of a fire.
http://cableorganizer.com/abesco-fire-rated-foam/

Hey, good website. I got some big workstations and a couple other projects I
have to wire up and they have some goodies that could help. I filed this one
away.


Those are two things you really don't need in a shop. The radio takes
your attention away from sharp spinny things which are often reaching
for your fingers, and the chair lets you goof off too much. Calculate
in the office, not the shop.

I got a "shop stool" at a garage sale and it turned into a bar stool of
sorts. Ya know, you sit on it and nothing much happens. I needed the space,
threw it out and my productivity went up. Go figure.

Burt Rutan in the plans for the LongEZ suggests that the "thinking
chair" is an essential piece of equipment. I suspect that few of us are
as productive as Burt Rutan.

That's EZ for you to say.

On Sun, 20 Jun 2010 12:15:41 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote the following:

On 6/20/10 11:59 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
As long as the hole is big enough to put the cables through it
without kinking or damaging them, sure. AFAIK, the Code doesn't
mention anything at all about minimum hole size through wood framing.

One caveat for drilling bigger holes in a typical tubafour stud frame
is the larger hole may require the use of nail plates if they end up
less than 1 1/4" from the edge.

True. I use bigger holes to make pulling easier, and to run more through
one hole. That way I don't have to worry about wires running through a lot
of different heights when rock goes on.


The real question is, how many lines can you run through a floor joist
in the basement ceiling, that allows for the most clothing to by hung
from it?

Is that in the NEC? :-)

The NEC specifically states that "clothing is optional", Mike.

--
Peace of mind is that mental condition in which you have accepted the worst.
-- Lin Yutang

On 6/20/10 11:37 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sun, 20 Jun 2010 12:15:41 -0500,
wrote the following:

On 6/20/10 11:59 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
As long as the hole is big enough to put the cables through it
without kinking or damaging them, sure. AFAIK, the Code doesn't
mention anything at all about minimum hole size through wood framing.

One caveat for drilling bigger holes in a typical tubafour stud frame
is the larger hole may require the use of nail plates if they end up
less than 1 1/4" from the edge.

True. I use bigger holes to make pulling easier, and to run more through
one hole. That way I don't have to worry about wires running through a lot
of different heights when rock goes on.


The real question is, how many lines can you run through a floor joist
in the basement ceiling, that allows for the most clothing to by hung
from it?

Is that in the NEC? :-)

The NEC specifically states that "clothing is optional", Mike.

Naked electricians are *not* allowed in my house.

--
Froz...


The system will be down for 10 days for preventive maintenance.

Doug Miller wrote:

3/4" is overkill for most NM cabling. 1/2" is ample for one or two 14-2 or one
14-3; 5/8" quite sufficient for one or two 12-2 or one 12-3. Why bother
drilling smaller holes, you may ask? It's faster. And it doesn't drain the
battery in your cordless drill as quickly.

I like the idea of putting two 12-2 cables through one 5/8" hole. It
goes without saying that safety is my highest priority.

What is an ideal hole size for a single 10-2 cable? 3/4"? Similar
distance between adjacent holes?


It is good that no feet will be able to stretch the wire, but I think it
should be protected so that no one can push a box against it as well.

Correct.

I have seen the idea of building a "U-shaped" running board proposed.

Not necessary. Why make more work for yourself?

Hmmm...attaching it low (close to the eaves) seems to offer the running
board the safest reasonable location. BTW, it will be approximately 12
feet long. Surely I don't wish to clutter the area directly over the
existing main and the new adjacent subpanel more than it already is.
Presently wires "spew" from the top plate over the main panel . So, I
will strive that my new work will not impede access. What is a good way
to add protection against the above-mentioned box that someone might be
inclined to push against the running board? A gun? : )




6 cables across an 6"-8" wide board?

No problem. A 1x6 should be fine.




I don't think you've considered the difficulty of attaching
the boards with half a dozen cables hanging off of them....

You are correct (but I can imagine worse, I think)!


3) Why bother with the plastic-backed staples? Code permits plain metal
staples such as these
http://www.amazon.com/NM-Cable-Stapl.../dp/B002CM2IPY
which are much cheaper, and *far* easier to install.


Hmm. I've noticed those in my present configuration. Intuitively, plain
metal staples seem to increase the risk of accidentally damaging the
cabling. Someone suggested that they used insulated staples with nm
cable. I will seek to better understand these options. I don't mind
spending a few dollars on staples if it makes installing cable more
idiot-proof, in case I have a helper! : )



We discussed outlet locations (in proximity to panels) earlier.
My main panel is 24" to the right of the back door of the garage. Is
there any problem with installing a duplex outlet in between the panel
and the back door, at 50" high? My concern was that the location was
where someone might expect to find a light switch (so I would use a
coverplate, or equivalent protection). Does the NEC prohibit what I
have suggested?

Thank you very much!

BTW, most of the drywall on Wall #2 is coming off tomorrow. I may try to
speed things up with careful use of my reciprocating saw. I hope I can
get to sleep! : )

In article , Bill wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:

3/4" is overkill for most NM cabling. 1/2" is ample for one or two 14-2 or
one
14-3; 5/8" quite sufficient for one or two 12-2 or one 12-3. Why bother
drilling smaller holes, you may ask? It's faster. And it doesn't drain the
battery in your cordless drill as quickly.

I like the idea of putting two 12-2 cables through one 5/8" hole. It
goes without saying that safety is my highest priority.

This isn't a safety issue at all, actually. Just a convenience issue.

What is an ideal hole size for a single 10-2 cable? 3/4"? Similar
distance between adjacent holes?

3/4" will accomodate one or two 10-2 cables. I normally space holes about 2"
apart, but there's no hard-and-fast rule about that. Just make sure you space
them apart horizontally, not vertically. Holes through joists should be as
close to the center of the joist as you can get them (holes near either the
top or bottom edge weaken the joist considerably). Same rule applies to
rafters and studs, too.


It is good that no feet will be able to stretch the wire, but I think it
should be protected so that no one can push a box against it as well.

Correct.

I have seen the idea of building a "U-shaped" running board proposed.

Not necessary. Why make more work for yourself?

Hmmm...attaching it low (close to the eaves) seems to offer the running
board the safest reasonable location. BTW, it will be approximately 12
feet long. Surely I don't wish to clutter the area directly over the
existing main and the new adjacent subpanel more than it already is.
Presently wires "spew" from the top plate over the main panel . So, I
will strive that my new work will not impede access. What is a good way
to add protection against the above-mentioned box that someone might be
inclined to push against the running board? A gun? : )

Don't worry about it. A cable stapled to a running board isn't going to be
damaged at all by having a cardboard box shoved against it.

6 cables across an 6"-8" wide board?

No problem. A 1x6 should be fine.

I don't think you've considered the difficulty of attaching
the boards with half a dozen cables hanging off of them....

You are correct (but I can imagine worse, I think)!

3) Why bother with the plastic-backed staples? Code permits plain metal
staples such as these
http://www.amazon.com/NM-Cable-Stapl.../dp/B002CM2IPY
which are much cheaper, and *far* easier to install.

Hmm. I've noticed those in my present configuration. Intuitively, plain
metal staples seem to increase the risk of accidentally damaging the
cabling.

Well, yes, that's true, but only if you're not paying close attention to how
hard you're driving the staples in. :-) Stop hammering when the staple
contacts the cable sheath, and you'll be fine.

Someone suggested that they used insulated staples with nm
cable. I will seek to better understand these options. I don't mind
spending a few dollars on staples if it makes installing cable more
idiot-proof, in case I have a helper! : )

From my perspective, ease of installation is the main reason for using metal
staples, not cost. The plastic ones are a PITA to put in.

We discussed outlet locations (in proximity to panels) earlier.
My main panel is 24" to the right of the back door of the garage. Is
there any problem with installing a duplex outlet in between the panel
and the back door, at 50" high?

None at all.

My concern was that the location was
where someone might expect to find a light switch (so I would use a
coverplate, or equivalent protection).

Not sure what you mean here. Of course you'd use a cover plate -- all
receptacles are required by Code to have cover plates. What do you mean by
"equivalent protection"?

Does the NEC prohibit what I
have suggested?

No.

FrozenNorth wrote:
On 6/20/10 11:37 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:

snip

The real question is, how many lines can you run through a floor joist
in the basement ceiling, that allows for the most clothing to by hung
from it?

Is that in the NEC? :-)


The NEC specifically states that "clothing is optional", Mike.

Naked electricians are *not* allowed in my house.


That depends on what she looks like.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA