I couldn't verify if this message made it to the group, so I am reposting.
Still curious about the question at the top if anyone would care to comment.
Thanks! Bill

"Bill" wrote in message news:...
A few months ago, the idea of a "quad in a box" go-anywhere power source
was brought up.

:: sheepishly I am asking::

Is it fine to power this by plugging it into a wall outlet???



Trying to answer the question myself, I'm pretty sure it's not even ok to
be able to step
on nm cable, so, at the very minimum, more durable insulation is required.


Swingman offered me a good piece of advice, which is never to do anything
(electrical) that
you don't feel confident about (and I'm following that).

I've learned even more since he mentioned that--learning to appreciate for
instance the importance
of being very careful not to even nick any of the conducting wires (which
might result in a short for instance),
and in installing a panel with a level. Attention to detail.

Bill

Top of what?


"Bill" wrote in message
...
I couldn't verify if this message made it to the group, so I am reposting.
Still curious about the question at the top if anyone would care to comment.
Thanks! Bill



--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

"Josepi" wrote in message
...
Top of what?

I apologize for not wording my question more effectively. Here's another
try:


A few months ago, the idea of a "quad in a box" as a go-anywhere power
source
was brought up.

Can one power this configuration by plugging it into a wall outlet without
violating the NEC?

Bill

Maybe nobody knows what a "quad-in-a-box" is? I don't. Perhaps dual duplex
recepticals?


Usually electrical safety codes do not apply very tightly to plug-in
devices. These devices would be controlled by consumer safety agencies like
UL & CSA. Everytime the ELec. Code Inspector comes you would just unplug it,
anyway!...LOL

Is this any help?

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/5YL44



"Bill" wrote in message
...
I apologize for not wording my question more effectively. Here's another
try:


A few months ago, the idea of a "quad in a box" as a go-anywhere power
source
was brought up.

Can one power this configuration by plugging it into a wall outlet without
violating the NEC?

Bill



"Josepi" wrote in message
...
Top of what?





--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

In article , "Bill" wrote:

"Josepi" wrote in message
...
Top of what?

I apologize for not wording my question more effectively. Here's another
try:


A few months ago, the idea of a "quad in a box" as a go-anywhere power
source
was brought up.

Can one power this configuration by plugging it into a wall outlet without
violating the NEC?

Yes, of course. The NEC is concerned with services, feeders, and branch
circuits -- basically, everything between the service drop and the outlet.
What's on *your* side of the outlet is of no concern to the NEC.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , "Bill"
wrote:

"Josepi" wrote in message
...
Top of what?

I apologize for not wording my question more effectively. Here's another
try:


A few months ago, the idea of a "quad in a box" as a go-anywhere power
source
was brought up.

Can one power this configuration by plugging it into a wall outlet without
violating the NEC?

Yes, of course. The NEC is concerned with services, feeders, and branch
circuits -- basically, everything between the service drop and the outlet.
What's on *your* side of the outlet is of no concern to the NEC.



Josephi - You read my mind. A pair of duplex outlets was what I had in mind
by "quad in a box". I honestly did not intend to be vague.

Doug -- Wouldn't this be considered an extension of the branch
circuit/outlet since it is an outlet itself? Maybe it's gets omitted for
being temporary. This same mechanism seems like the best way to add
outlets underneath the table of a workbench. Do you think that this is this
just as permissable?

I had a question concerning the ground wires in wiring a quad box in a
branch circuit (both outlets to be run in series from the same hot).
Resources I have found have been vague. My understanding includes that a
wire attached to the ground terminal of the first duplex outlet would be
pigtailed with the upstream ground wire and a wire which is screwed to the
box, and that the wire attached to the ground terminal of the second duplex
outlet would be pigtailed with the downstream ground wire and a wire which
is screwed to the (metal) box. So the box would contain exactly 2
connectors and two wires would be screwed to the box, possibly at the same
place. Does this seem like the best way to you? I can think of equivalent
configurations, but this one seems good. Another possibility seems to be to
use a 3rd pigtail connecting the first two pigtail connections and connect
them to the box that way instead. Which way seems preferable to you?

BTW, using 12-3 cable for my run, every wire I mentioned connecting in the
paragraph above would be bare (right?).

Thank you!
Bill

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
...


Buy a 12-3 (black, white, green), 25 ft molded cord set, chop off
receptacle, wire in a 2-gang, extra deep box with a double duplex cover
plate and a couple of receptacles.

Time for a beer.



It's only a silly extension cord.


Perhaps so, but surely it's an extension cord that merits much more care.
Thank you for your patience.

Bill

In article , "Bill" wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , "Bill"
wrote:

"Josepi" wrote in message
...
Top of what?

I apologize for not wording my question more effectively. Here's another
try:


A few months ago, the idea of a "quad in a box" as a go-anywhere power
source
was brought up.

Can one power this configuration by plugging it into a wall outlet without
violating the NEC?

Yes, of course. The NEC is concerned with services, feeders, and branch
circuits -- basically, everything between the service drop and the outlet.
What's on *your* side of the outlet is of no concern to the NEC.

Josephi - You read my mind. A pair of duplex outlets was what I had in mind
by "quad in a box". I honestly did not intend to be vague.

Doug -- Wouldn't this be considered an extension of the branch
circuit/outlet since it is an outlet itself?

No -- because it's *not* an outlet. It's an extension cord.

Maybe it's gets omitted for
being temporary.

It's not covered by the Code because it's not part of the premises wiring
system.

This same mechanism seems like the best way to add
outlets underneath the table of a workbench. Do you think that this is this
just as permissable?

Certainly. As I said before, it's just an extension cord.

I had a question concerning the ground wires in wiring a quad box in a
branch circuit (both outlets to be run in series from the same hot).

Parallel, actually, not series.

Resources I have found have been vague. My understanding includes that a
wire attached to the ground terminal of the first duplex outlet would be
pigtailed with the upstream ground wire and a wire which is screwed to the
box, and that the wire attached to the ground terminal of the second duplex
outlet would be pigtailed with the downstream ground wire and a wire which
is screwed to the (metal) box.

That's one way to do it, but certainly not the only way. The Code requires
that both grounding wires, and the grounding terminals of each outlet, and the
metal box, are all electrically connected. How you achieve that is up to you.
A more common installation would be to wire-nut together pigtails from each
outlet, both grounding conductors, and a pigtail fastened to the box.

So the box would contain exactly 2
connectors and two wires would be screwed to the box,

Yes

possibly at the same place.

NO. At different places. One wire per screw terminal.

Does this seem like the best way to you? I can think of equivalent
configurations, but this one seems good. Another possibility seems to be to
use a 3rd pigtail connecting the first two pigtail connections and connect
them to the box that way instead. Which way seems preferable to you?

Not the second one you mention here. Why use an extra pigtail if you don't
need to?

BTW, using 12-3 cable for my run, every wire I mentioned connecting in the
paragraph above would be bare (right?).

Every wire you mentioned *must* be bare, regardless of what type of cable
you're using -- but why are you using 12-3 cable? (12-3 has *four* conductors:
black, red, white, and bare.)

The NEC mandates that the grounding conductor be either:
a) uninsulated, or
b) covered with insulation which is green, or green with a yellow stripe.
NM cable is manufactured *only* with bare grounding conductors.

On Tue, 8 Jun 2010 01:46:21 -0400, "Bill"
wrote the following:


"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
.. .


Buy a 12-3 (black, white, green), 25 ft molded cord set, chop off
receptacle, wire in a 2-gang, extra deep box with a double duplex cover
plate and a couple of receptacles.

It's only a silly extension cord.

Perhaps so, but surely it's an extension cord that merits much more care.
Thank you for your patience.

Um, why would one extension cord require/merit more care than another
extension cord, Bill? Am I missing something from the original
thread?

--
Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what
to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity.
-- George S. Patton

On 6/7/10 11:17 PM, Bill wrote:
"Doug wrote in message
...
In , "Bill"
wrote:

wrote in message
...
Top of what?

I apologize for not wording my question more effectively. Here's another
try:


A few months ago, the idea of a "quad in a box" as a go-anywhere power
source
was brought up.

Can one power this configuration by plugging it into a wall outlet without
violating the NEC?

Yes, of course. The NEC is concerned with services, feeders, and branch
circuits -- basically, everything between the service drop and the outlet.
What's on *your* side of the outlet is of no concern to the NEC.



Josephi - You read my mind. A pair of duplex outlets was what I had in mind
by "quad in a box". I honestly did not intend to be vague.


I see these all the time and have built many.
I also hear that phrase all the time... it may be a regional thing.

All you're talking about is a homemade extension cord with 4 outlets.
Couldn't you just buy a power strip with a long cord? Those thing are
already UL listed and many of them have a built-in GFCI on the plug.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 6/7/10 11:44 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:

Time for a beer.

It's only a silly extension cord.

Lew



Beat me to it. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

"Bill" writes:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , "Bill"
wrote:

"Josepi" wrote in message
...
Top of what?

I apologize for not wording my question more effectively. Here's another
try:


A few months ago, the idea of a "quad in a box" as a go-anywhere power
source
was brought up.

Doug -- Wouldn't this be considered an extension of the branch
circuit/outlet since it is an outlet itself? Maybe it's gets omitted for
being temporary. This same mechanism seems like the best way to add
outlets underneath the table of a workbench. Do you think that this is this
just as permissable?


It's no different than any extension cord. Use type SJ 12-3 with ground
and a 4" deep box; make sure you use the appropriate fitting to hold
the SJ to the box. If you use a metal box, make sure you ground the box.

scott

On Tue, 08 Jun 2010 11:26:16 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , "Bill" wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , "Bill"
wrote:

"Josepi" wrote in message
...
Top of what?

I apologize for not wording my question more effectively. Here's another
try:


A few months ago, the idea of a "quad in a box" as a go-anywhere power
source
was brought up.

Can one power this configuration by plugging it into a wall outlet without
violating the NEC?

Yes, of course. The NEC is concerned with services, feeders, and branch
circuits -- basically, everything between the service drop and the outlet.
What's on *your* side of the outlet is of no concern to the NEC.

Josephi - You read my mind. A pair of duplex outlets was what I had in mind
by "quad in a box". I honestly did not intend to be vague.

Doug -- Wouldn't this be considered an extension of the branch
circuit/outlet since it is an outlet itself?

No -- because it's *not* an outlet. It's an extension cord.

Maybe it's gets omitted for
being temporary.

It's not covered by the Code because it's not part of the premises wiring
system.

This same mechanism seems like the best way to add
outlets underneath the table of a workbench. Do you think that this is this
just as permissable?

Certainly. As I said before, it's just an extension cord.

I had a question concerning the ground wires in wiring a quad box in a
branch circuit (both outlets to be run in series from the same hot).

Parallel, actually, not series.

Resources I have found have been vague. My understanding includes that a
wire attached to the ground terminal of the first duplex outlet would be
pigtailed with the upstream ground wire and a wire which is screwed to the
box, and that the wire attached to the ground terminal of the second duplex
outlet would be pigtailed with the downstream ground wire and a wire which
is screwed to the (metal) box.

That's one way to do it, but certainly not the only way. The Code requires
that both grounding wires, and the grounding terminals of each outlet, and the
metal box, are all electrically connected. How you achieve that is up to you.
A more common installation would be to wire-nut together pigtails from each
outlet, both grounding conductors, and a pigtail fastened to the box.

So the box would contain exactly 2
connectors and two wires would be screwed to the box,

Yes

possibly at the same place.

NO. At different places. One wire per screw terminal.

Does this seem like the best way to you? I can think of equivalent
configurations, but this one seems good. Another possibility seems to be to
use a 3rd pigtail connecting the first two pigtail connections and connect
them to the box that way instead. Which way seems preferable to you?

Not the second one you mention here. Why use an extra pigtail if you don't
need to?

BTW, using 12-3 cable for my run, every wire I mentioned connecting in the
paragraph above would be bare (right?).

Every wire you mentioned *must* be bare, regardless of what type of cable
you're using -- but why are you using 12-3 cable? (12-3 has *four* conductors:
black, red, white, and bare.)

The NEC mandates that the grounding conductor be either:
a) uninsulated, or
b) covered with insulation which is green, or green with a yellow stripe.
NM cable is manufactured *only* with bare grounding conductors.


Only requirement for the use of it as Doug describes is that
everything be UL(or equal) listed. Even when we've hard wired them
into ceiling boxes in commercial installations the only requirement
was the use of heavy duty cord and strain relief connectors at both
ends.

Mike M

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
-- but why are you using 12-3 cable? (12-3 has *four* conductors:
black, red, white, and bare.)

For this particular wire run, I'm going to power 8 duplex outlets with one
hot and 4 more with the other hot.
I'm also going to run wire to dedicated 240v outlets. I'm also going to use
it for my lighting (different circuits
of course).

I have already used SU to estimate my wire requirements, and one 250' roll
of 12-3 will meet adequately meet ALL of my current (cough, cough) wiring
needs. Wiring to my outlets will range from 23'-44' and
I think this decision will make managing my wire inventory very simple, now
and with whatever is leftover.
I'm always willing to be corrected, but I thought this was a good decision
on my part.


I was tempted to go with pigtailing 5 wires to connect to ground, but that
seems to slightly complicate
the future replacement of a duplex outlet (since to my understanding,
properly done, the end of the wires
should be recut). I think I'm on safer ground (cough), or at least more
confident, twisting/connecting 3 wires
rather than 5. I surely don't want one coming loose.

Thank you very much for your valuable assistance! And also to other folks
who have helped me
along my road to self-actualization.

My next step is to remove all of the wallboard on two walls. Then I can
better-understand and
remove/modify the existing wiring before I put up the new. I have to admit
that I overlooked the
removal/modification step in my planning! And this does not include the
30Amp RV-outlet on the
outside of my shop that I am not using. I think I will dismantle it at the
panel for now. The NEC doesn't
preclude leaving it in this state/condition, does it?

Bill

In article , "Bill" wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
-- but why are you using 12-3 cable? (12-3 has *four* conductors:
black, red, white, and bare.)

For this particular wire run, I'm going to power 8 duplex outlets with one
hot and 4 more with the other hot.

Why not 6 and 6?

I'm also going to run wire to dedicated 240v outlets.

There's no need to run 12-3 or 10-3 for pure 240V outlets. A 240V circuit does
not use, and hence does not need, a neutral conductor, so 12-2 or 10-2 will
work just fine.

I'm also going to use
it for my lighting (different circuits
of course).

It makes more sense to use 14-2 for your lighting circuits. Why 12-3?

I have already used SU to estimate my wire requirements, and one 250' roll
of 12-3 will meet adequately meet ALL of my current (cough, cough) wiring
needs. Wiring to my outlets will range from 23'-44' and
I think this decision will make managing my wire inventory very simple, now
and with whatever is leftover.
I'm always willing to be corrected, but I thought this was a good decision
on my part.

I don't agree. I think it's a poor decision. Based on the plans you posted a
week or so back, you don't need 12-3 for *anything*. All of your 120V outlets
can be wired with 12-2, and the lighting with 14-2.

And you should be using 10-2, not 12-3, for the 240V circuits. The dust
collector can manage on 12-2, I'd imagine.

[...]
My next step is to remove all of the wallboard on two walls. Then I can
better-understand and
remove/modify the existing wiring before I put up the new. I have to admit
that I overlooked the
removal/modification step in my planning! And this does not include the
30Amp RV-outlet on the
outside of my shop that I am not using. I think I will dismantle it at the
panel for now. The NEC doesn't
preclude leaving it in this state/condition, does it?

It didn't used to, but the Code does now require that abandoned wire be
removed as much as practical. There was a discussion of that over at
alt.home.repair about 5-6 months ago, I think -- I'm pretty sure somebody
posted the exact requirements, and you should be able to find the thread with
a Google Groups search.

Bill

Typically in residential wiring cables the ground wire is not included in
the conductor count. If you bought other type cable, for almost any other
application, the total number of conductors would be included in the count.
So yes, 12/3 NMD, NMW, would include a black, red, white plus a bare
conductor. If you bought a 12/3 cable in cab tire (the black rubber type
flexible stuff) it would include a black, white and green, or three other
colours depending on the application it was desigend for and the company
making it.

For ground wiring, I like to keep them as continuous as possible. I would
probably bring my incoming ground wire, very long from the cable, wrap it
around the box screw and then to each receptical in turn with one long,
uncut run, all from the cable. In lieu of that, to the box screw, then to a
wire nut (connector / Marrette) with two pigtails... one to each receptical
ground. If the wire is stranded you may want to crimp a lug on the end,
depending on how well the connector is made for that style of conductor.

I am not sure what the point of the four banger receptical would be. I have
installed this config in walls a few times and it is a mistake for most
applications. Most wall wart AC adapters cover too many recepticals, the six
banger receptical splitters cover the other two recepticals and you only get
use of two of the wired in ones, the current capacity is still only 15 amps
between the four and that limits what you can accidentally use at one time
and a few other reasons I can't think of right now. They do work well for
light draw test equipment (say electronics).

The number 12 wire may be a good idea if the extension cord has some length
to elimate voltage drop and be easier on higher powered equipment (saws,
routers etc..) but then you probably wouldn't want to share a bunch of
equipment like that on that quad box. Individual circuits are still the best
bet for when your grandson comes in and cuts that piece of wood or blows off
his dirty pants while you are jointing that piece of briar you just bought.

If you O/C protect the 12/3 cable with a 20 amp circuit then you need 20 amp
recepticals (have a T slot in the neutral side) and you are over fusing any
portable power tools you use. You may lose some of the human protection
afforded by the recommended max circuit capacity for the equipment.

In short, if you are going to open up your walls, spend the time and money
to put a few outlets around the room on individual circuits. Possibly one on
the ceiling for who-knows-what later. You don't have to use them. I wired
mine with one receptical per breaker..kept them high for over workbenches.
Any 240v circuits will have to be crawling through the attic or kept close
to the breaker panel or piped across the ceiling after.


BTW: There are defined standards for every current and voltage rating of
receptical so they can't be used in the wrong application. It is a good idea
to stick to these standards. I believe I have found charts on GE or Hubbel
websites with pics to identify each type.

Personally, If I were you, I would pay for a wiring inspection. You run all
your cables to the boxes and call them to come and then again after the
recepticals are installed and closed up. I would run the wire, install the
boxes and wire the recepticals and leave hanging for the rough in
inspection. (the wall finisher will not like the receptical wired in bu they
can be turned sideways and pushed through the holes before mounting the
drywall etc... Inform the inspector you are not too sure and have a close
look, He will advise some requirements, some tips, and some hints of how to
make it right or better, usually. After the first wave of inspection, hook
up your breakers in the panel. If nervous about that get some help, friend,
passing electrician etc... With inspection, you'll feel better, your home
insurance will feel better after a fire, and you just bought yourself some
protection against insurance, weasel out.




"Bill" wrote in message
...


Josephi - You read my mind. A pair of duplex outlets was what I had in mind
by "quad in a box". I honestly did not intend to be vague.

I had a question concerning the ground wires in wiring a quad box in a
branch circuit (both outlets to be run in series from the same hot).
Resources I have found have been vague. My understanding includes that a
wire attached to the ground terminal of the first duplex outlet would be
pigtailed with the upstream ground wire and a wire which is screwed to the
box, and that the wire attached to the ground terminal of the second duplex
outlet would be pigtailed with the downstream ground wire and a wire which
is screwed to the (metal) box. So the box would contain exactly 2
connectors and two wires would be screwed to the box, possibly at the same
place. Does this seem like the best way to you? I can think of equivalent
configurations, but this one seems good. Another possibility seems to be to
use a 3rd pigtail connecting the first two pigtail connections and connect
them to the box that way instead. Which way seems preferable to you?

BTW, using 12-3 cable for my run, every wire I mentioned connecting in the
paragraph above would be bare (right?).

Thank you!
Bill

"Josepi" wrote in message
...

Personally, If I were you, I would pay for a wiring inspection. You run
all
your cables to the boxes and call them to come and then again after the
recepticals are installed and closed up. I would run the wire, install the
boxes and wire the recepticals and leave hanging for the rough in
inspection. (the wall finisher will not like the receptical wired in bu
they
can be turned sideways and pushed through the holes before mounting the
drywall etc... Inform the inspector you are not too sure and have a close
look, He will advise some requirements, some tips, and some hints of how
to
make it right or better, usually. After the first wave of inspection, hook
up your breakers in the panel. If nervous about that get some help,
friend,
passing electrician etc... With inspection, you'll feel better, your home
insurance will feel better after a fire, and you just bought yourself some
protection against insurance, weasel out.



I recently read somewhere, perhaps in the NEC, about a requirement of
submission
of desogn drawings (prepared by somoneone who knows how to) that are not
less than 30" etc.
Is this part of the wiring inspection process? You are talking about
working
through the city/municipality right? The insurance issue is one I have been
concerned about. I am a little afraid to let an inspector see what I
"inherited" when
I bought my house (although the house inspector didn't note any problems in
this area).
Someone with a trained eye wouldn't have trouble finding existing things to
object to...
BTW, my project includes the installation of a subpanel adjacent to the main
panel.

Bill

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , "Bill"
wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
-- but why are you using 12-3 cable? (12-3 has *four* conductors:
black, red, white, and bare.)

For this particular wire run, I'm going to power 8 duplex outlets with one
hot and 4 more with the other hot.

Why not 6 and 6?

Well, it's really 4, 4 and 4. I thought the 120 quad above the 220v for the
TS could share, and
the other quad would run from a circuit dedicated to it. Having the two
duplex halves of a quad
running off of totally separate circuits seems downright dangerous (because
its confusing)!


There's no need to run 12-3 or 10-3 for pure 240V outlets. A 240V circuit
does
not use, and hence does not need, a neutral conductor, so 12-2 or 10-2
will
work just fine.

I could run my two 120v branch circuits from one 12-3 cable and a tandem
breaker. Is there much
advantage to two cables and two breakers?

As a non-professional, I suspect the price structure favors one 250' spool
of cable.
Others have suggested 12-3 (partially, for the unforeseeable future, I
think), in addition
to the fact that you get two 120v branch circuits from one cable).
I intended to install only 20 Amp circuits everywhere--however
Joseph brought up some new issues concerning this to my attention. My TS
wants to
be on a 20 Amp circuilt. I understand 12 gauge wire is suitable for that
(10 being
required only on 30 Amp circuits, from my understanding).

I need to assimilate some of this. I'll keep thinking!

It might be helpful to discuss concerns relating to putting lighting on 20
Amp circuits, as
I think there is some inconsistency present. One advantage I see is that
you
can occasionally demand a little more from one of the circuits. I already
have a separate
lighting fixture/circuit, from the main panel, so a total loss of lighting
is only a possibility
with a total power outtage.

Bill

"Bill" wrote in
:

*snip*


I could run my two 120v branch circuits from one 12-3 cable and a
tandem breaker. Is there much
advantage to two cables and two breakers?


*snip*

If you're running 2 120V circuits from a 12-3 cable, consider that the
neutral would have to carry twice as much current as it would in most
situations.

Two single breakers gives you the capability to move or replace just one,
should the need arise.

Puckdropper
--
Never teach your apprentice everything you know.

"Puckdropper" puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote in message
...
"Bill" wrote in
:

*snip*


I could run my two 120v branch circuits from one 12-3 cable and a
tandem breaker. Is there much
advantage to two cables and two breakers?


*snip*

If you're running 2 120V circuits from a 12-3 cable, consider that the
neutral would have to carry twice as much current as it would in most
situations.


So, if I understand you correctly, 12-3 cable isn't really intended for
running
two 120v circuits, despite the fact that it's possible to do so. I did not
understand this.

Looks like I can get a 250 ft roll of Romex 12-2 for about $70 or so. I'll
be careful
to avoid "burn-thru" (I searched for at least 15 minutes last night until I
figured out
what mytical quality being "burn-thru resistent" referred to). No need to
explain, I already know!!! : )

Lew, Swingman, Mike, What do you think, 12-2 all around (you could talk me
into some 10-2)?
All 20 Amp circuits. Will inspectors like it?

Bill

"Bill" wrote in message
...

"Josepi" wrote in message
...

Personally, If I were you, I would pay for a wiring inspection. You run
all
your cables to the boxes and call them to come and then again after the
recepticals are installed and closed up.

What do you mean by "and closed up"?

Most of the application for a "(Garage) Building Building" permit consists
of
"Maps, Sketches, and Other Exhibits: Applicant must attach appropriate
sufficient maps, sketches, and other exhibits, including a signed Homeowner’s
Association Affirmation of Notification.

I have 2 questions:

1) Are before and after SU documents, along with written summaries likely
to suffice for this?
2) Is my Homeowners Association likely to raise their head (for fear of all
the the outlets)? --Maybe I'll layout a SU document with buffers, fans,
and other quiet amenities. : )

3) I can see why some people might not go this route. It surely gets in
the way of changing your mind. It sounds sort of silly, but "how much
"vaguness" is allowed? Is a phrase such as "add fluorescent lighting to the
ceiling" unacceptable?

The application fee for the building permit the maximum of .05/sq^2 or $25.
Is that likely to cover both the "rough-in" and "final inspection", or are
their typically further fees?

Bill

In article , "Bill" wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , "Bill"
wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
-- but why are you using 12-3 cable? (12-3 has *four* conductors:
black, red, white, and bare.)

For this particular wire run, I'm going to power 8 duplex outlets with one
hot and 4 more with the other hot.

Why not 6 and 6?

Well, it's really 4, 4 and 4. I thought the 120 quad above the 220v for the
TS could share, and the other quad would run from a circuit dedicated to it. Having the two
duplex halves of a quad running off of totally separate circuits seems downright dangerous (because
its confusing)!

Right, that's not a good idea.


There's no need to run 12-3 or 10-3 for pure 240V outlets. A 240V circuit does
not use, and hence does not need, a neutral conductor, so 12-2 or 10-2 will
work just fine.

I could run my two 120v branch circuits from one 12-3 cable and a tandem
breaker. Is there much advantage to two cables and two breakers?

It depends mostly on the locations of the recepticals -- if you can run one
continuous cable from the breaker panel to the first one to the last one, it
may make more sense to use 12-3. If you have to split it in two different
directions, use two separate runs of 12-2.

As a non-professional, I suspect the price structure favors one 250' spool
of cable.

No, it doesn't. You "suspect". But apparently you haven't actually checked.
Prices this morning at Lowes.com show $118 for 250' of 12-3 and $70 for 250'
of 12-2.

Plus, 12ga wire is inappropriate for about half of your wiring job. It's
unnecessary for your lighting circuit(s) -- those can use 14ga easily. And you
_really should not_ use 12ga wire for your 240V circuits. I assure you, you
will come to regret that decision. I *strongly* recommend using 10ga _at
minimum_ on the circuits for your table saw and air compressor.

Others have suggested 12-3 (partially, for the unforeseeable future, I
think), in addition to the fact that you get two 120v branch circuits from one cable).

That's really not as big an advantage as it seems. Especially when you can run
168 feet of 12-2 for the same price as 100 feet of 12-3.

I intended to install only 20 Amp circuits everywhere--however
Joseph brought up some new issues concerning this to my attention. My TS
wants to be on a 20 Amp circuilt. I understand 12 gauge wire is suitable for that
(10 being required only on 30 Amp circuits, from my understanding).

That's correct... but what if you decide to buy a larger, more powerful table
saw at some time in the future? I cannot emphasize this too strongly: don't
make decisions now that will constrain your decisions in the future. Run 10ga
wire to your 240V outlets.

I need to assimilate some of this. I'll keep thinking!

It might be helpful to discuss concerns relating to putting lighting on 20
Amp circuits, as I think there is some inconsistency present. One advantage I see is that
you can occasionally demand a little more from one of the circuits.

What does that mean? Lighting is pretty much a fixed load. A 15-amp circuit is
sufficient to power 1440 watts of lighting. That's thirty-six 48" fluorescent
tubes. There's _no reason_ to use 12ga wire for a lighting circuit.

In article , Puckdropper puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote:
If you're running 2 120V circuits from a 12-3 cable, consider that the
neutral would have to carry twice as much current as it would in most
situations.

No, it doesn't, unless it's installed improperly. Properly installed (with
the two hot conductors on opposite legs of the service), the current in the
neutral conductor is the *difference* of the currents in the two hots, not
their sum. For example, with 11 amps on one leg, and 7 amps on the other, the
current in the neutral is 4 amps, not 18.

In article , "Bill" wrote:

"Puckdropper" puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote in message
.. .
"Bill" wrote in
:

*snip*


I could run my two 120v branch circuits from one 12-3 cable and a
tandem breaker. Is there much
advantage to two cables and two breakers?


*snip*

If you're running 2 120V circuits from a 12-3 cable, consider that the
neutral would have to carry twice as much current as it would in most
situations.

(This is not true. See my other post.)

So, if I understand you correctly, 12-3 cable isn't really intended for running
two 120v circuits, despite the fact that it's possible to do so. I did not
understand this.

Yes, it is. He's mistaken.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...

Doug, Thank you for your thoughtful and detailed reply! I printed it
ut. -Bill

I do not know about your rules and regualtions of your communnal type
residential association or the politics of your state or governing body
responsible for building / electrical inspections.

Where I am, the electrical rules and inspections are governed by the
Province, although the national electrical code is the basis for the
provincial Code.
The building Inspector is a local guy enforcing local municipal Code based
on the Provincial building Code...LOL

When the electrical Inspector comes in he will inspect the wiring asked to
inspect. He doesn't care about structural building items or wiring that may
be existing, non-conforming. It's really not his business unless things get
politically dirty...maybe? He may make recommendations but unless he sees
something really, immediately, dangerous, he won't get involved. Just paying
the fee and calling him in they figure you are the consciencious type,
usually.

As far as map, sketches and plans, these things are really only for the
Building Inspector and Building Dept. of the Municipality. They would
involve structural soundness and asthetic issues for the neighbourhood look
and feel. Wiring is not usually wanted on the drawings nor is it used by
most electricians on the job. Industrial is usually the exception. I have
seen many people spend a lot of time making drawing for the electrician only
to have the guys on the job totally ignore it and do it "their way". This
usually works out better anyway after seeing room formation and determining
"Ergo" layout flow of the usage. Specific weird wiring quirks are the
exception for clarity.

"and closed up" means after the fictures are all closed up. This looks to me
like "childproofed". No open wiring or electrical contact points that
anybody could touch by accident.

When I "pushed" my third inspector to inspect my solar PV system he ran to
his vehicle, saying I hadn't paid for the inspection, to look at his
database. "Yeah, you have paid, it will he fine". He was more woriied they
got paid for it than looking at it. I had definite no-nos that he should
have jumped on me for. They look for knowledge and general attitude in your
work the they run to try to keep up with the clock, here.

YMMV
https://www.hubbellnet.com/max_htm/t...EMA/front.html




"Bill" wrote in message
...
What do you mean by "and closed up"?

Most of the application for a "(Garage) Building Building" permit consists
of
"Maps, Sketches, and Other Exhibits: Applicant must attach appropriate
sufficient maps, sketches, and other exhibits, including a signed Homeowner’s
Association Affirmation of Notification.

I have 2 questions:

1) Are before and after SU documents, along with written summaries likely
to suffice for this?
2) Is my Homeowners Association likely to raise their head (for fear of all
the the outlets)? --Maybe I'll layout a SU document with buffers, fans,
and other quiet amenities. : )

3) I can see why some people might not go this route. It surely gets in
the way of changing your mind. It sounds sort of silly, but "how much
"vaguness" is allowed? Is a phrase such as "add fluorescent lighting to the
ceiling" unacceptable?

The application fee for the building permit the maximum of .05/sq^2 or $25.
Is that likely to cover both the "rough-in" and "final inspection", or are
their typically further fees?

Bill

"Josepi" wrote in message
...
Personally, If I were you, I would pay for a wiring inspection. You run
all
your cables to the boxes and call them to come and then again after the
recepticals are installed and closed up.

(Doug Miller) wrote in
:

In article , Puckdropper
puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote:
If you're running 2 120V circuits from a 12-3 cable, consider that the
neutral would have to carry twice as much current as it would in most
situations.

No, it doesn't, unless it's installed improperly. Properly installed
(with the two hot conductors on opposite legs of the service), the
current in the neutral conductor is the *difference* of the currents
in the two hots, not their sum. For example, with 11 amps on one leg,
and 7 amps on the other, the current in the neutral is 4 amps, not 18.

Bill, I'm sorry for the incorrect information. After much thought, I
think I can explain why Doug's right. (On opposite legs, the current
draws are going two different directions (on a plot). That's why they
subtract and not add.)

Doug, thanks for the correction.

Puckdropper
--
Never teach your apprentice everything you know.

In article , Puckdropper puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote:
(Doug Miller) wrote in
:

In article , Puckdropper
puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote:
If you're running 2 120V circuits from a 12-3 cable, consider that the
neutral would have to carry twice as much current as it would in most
situations.

No, it doesn't, unless it's installed improperly. Properly installed
(with the two hot conductors on opposite legs of the service), the
current in the neutral conductor is the *difference* of the currents
in the two hots, not their sum. For example, with 11 amps on one leg,
and 7 amps on the other, the current in the neutral is 4 amps, not 18.

Bill, I'm sorry for the incorrect information. After much thought, I
think I can explain why Doug's right. (On opposite legs, the current
draws are going two different directions (on a plot). That's why they
subtract and not add.)

Doug, thanks for the correction.

No problem, Puck, it's a common misconception, and I wish everyone were as
graceful as you at having the misconception corrected.

"Puckdropper" puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote in message
...
(Doug Miller) wrote in
:

In article , Puckdropper
puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote:
If you're running 2 120V circuits from a 12-3 cable, consider that the
neutral would have to carry twice as much current as it would in most
situations.

No, it doesn't, unless it's installed improperly. Properly installed
(with the two hot conductors on opposite legs of the service), the
current in the neutral conductor is the *difference* of the currents
in the two hots, not their sum. For example, with 11 amps on one leg,
and 7 amps on the other, the current in the neutral is 4 amps, not 18.

Bill, I'm sorry for the incorrect information.

Hey, no problem, thank you for offering your help! This 'lectricy is
interesting stuff, huh?



After much thought, I
think I can explain why Doug's right. (On opposite legs, the current
draws are going two different directions (on a plot). That's why they
subtract and not add.)


That is a helpful explanation. Thank you!

Bill



Doug, thanks for the correction.

Puckdropper
--
Never teach your apprentice everything you know.

On Jun 7, 9:59*pm, "Bill" wrote:
"Josepi" wrote in message

... Top of what?

I apologize for not wording my question more effectively. Here's another
try:

A few months ago, the idea of a "quad in a box" as a go-anywhere power
source
was brought up.

Can one power this configuration by plugging it into a wall outlet without
violating the NEC?

Bill

Year's ago, before GFCI were common/required, and before GFCI
extension cords were available, I made a 4 foot cord with a GFCI
receptacle in a exterior receptacle box.

I'd plug it into an outlet and then plug extension cords into it.

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
news:f21f27d9-a45a-4451-850f-
Year's ago, before GFCI were common/required, and before GFCI
extension cords were available, I made a 4 foot cord with a GFCI
receptacle in a exterior receptacle box.

I'd plug it into an outlet and then plug extension cords into it.


Nice idea. i think that half of the fun of this craft is the ingenuity it
spawns.

Bill

Actually, the currents are added. The effect is subtraction.

One leg has a -1 vector tagged to it so when adding it becomes subtraction.

Remember in the US and many other places the two voltages are 180 degrees
out of phase with the other.

Martin

Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
"Our Republic and the Press will Rise or Fall Together": Joseph Pulitzer
TSRA: Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member. http://lufkinced.com/

On 6/9/2010 8:38 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
(Doug Miller) wrote in
:

In , Puckdropper
puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote:
If you're running 2 120V circuits from a 12-3 cable, consider that the
neutral would have to carry twice as much current as it would in most
situations.

No, it doesn't, unless it's installed improperly. Properly installed
(with the two hot conductors on opposite legs of the service), the
current in the neutral conductor is the *difference* of the currents
in the two hots, not their sum. For example, with 11 amps on one leg,
and 7 amps on the other, the current in the neutral is 4 amps, not 18.

Bill, I'm sorry for the incorrect information. After much thought, I
think I can explain why Doug's right. (On opposite legs, the current
draws are going two different directions (on a plot). That's why they
subtract and not add.)

Doug, thanks for the correction.

Puckdropper

Or 120 degrees out of phase if fed off a network three phase system. Ths can
be common in apartment buildings or large residental blocks. Now you get
the vector sum of two loads and have to consider the power factor also.

The end result is a low current, in the neutral, anyway, unless you have pf
correction on one and not the other. Not likely in a residence.


"Martin H. Eastburn" wrote in message
...
Actually, the currents are added. The effect is subtraction.

One leg has a -1 vector tagged to it so when adding it becomes subtraction.

Remember in the US and many other places the two voltages are 180 degrees
out of phase with the other.

Martin

Bill wrote:
"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
...


Buy a 12-3 (black, white, green), 25 ft molded cord set, chop off
receptacle, wire in a 2-gang, extra deep box with a double duplex
cover plate and a couple of receptacles.

Time for a beer.



It's only a silly extension cord.


Perhaps so, but surely it's an extension cord that merits much more
care. Thank you for your patience.


Why?

--

-Mike-

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...
Bill wrote:
"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
...


Buy a 12-3 (black, white, green), 25 ft molded cord set, chop off
receptacle, wire in a 2-gang, extra deep box with a double duplex
cover plate and a couple of receptacles.

Time for a beer.



It's only a silly extension cord.


Perhaps so, but surely it's an extension cord that merits much more
care. Thank you for your patience.


Why?

Because if you fling it around or drop it, it may become a fire hazard.



--

-Mike-

Bill wrote:


Because if you fling it around or drop it, it may become a fire
hazard.

Bill - you think about things too much. Nix the fire hazard idea.

--

-Mike-

The phase angle determines what you get.

Anyway - most 3-phase apartment house services are in fact 180 split windings.
e.g. delta with centers of the delta sides are grounded. You don't get
multiple phases for normal home use.

Martin

Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
"Our Republic and the Press will Rise or Fall Together": Joseph Pulitzer
TSRA: Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member. http://lufkinced.com/

On 6/9/2010 11:27 PM, Josepi wrote:
Or 120 degrees out of phase if fed off a network three phase system. Ths can
be common in apartment buildings or large residental blocks. Now you get
the vector sum of two loads and have to consider the power factor also.

The end result is a low current, in the neutral, anyway, unless you have pf
correction on one and not the other. Not likely in a residence.


"Martin H. wrote in message
...
Actually, the currents are added. The effect is subtraction.

One leg has a -1 vector tagged to it so when adding it becomes subtraction.

Remember in the US and many other places the two voltages are 180 degrees
out of phase with the other.

Martin

That would depend where your located. This 120 degree system is quite common
in some areas.

The voltages aimed at are 125 / 216 vac so that the 120v loads get a little
high voltage and the 240 loads get a slightly low voltage, all within legal
acceptable standards.

The energy metering takes a full two element Whr meter instead of a 1.5
element meter used for regular 120/240 vac. Costs a bit more so it it
typically only used in high rises and other large residential blocks.


In apartment or condo blocks, usually each floor will be fed off two out of
three phases, in the construction I have been involved with. One neutral
conductor and three phase conductors can feed the whole building up the
electrical service shaft. This can save some copper and use one big 3ph 4W
transformer for the building. 6 phase star can be used in a similar method
but power theft is easier to accomplish by customers and it takes more
copper.

With a delta configuration only **one** centre tapped phase can be grounded.
This was called 3 ph 4 wire delta and the metering was too complicated for
many EE people and abandoned. This was common with a 120/240 vac residential
service where the customer wanted to run a small 3 phase meat slicer or saw.
A second transformer could be added at 60 degrees for open delta, quite
economically and get three phase and single phase.



"Martin H. Eastburn" wrote in message
...
The phase angle determines what you get.

Anyway - most 3-phase apartment house services are in fact 180 split
windings.
e.g. delta with centers of the delta sides are grounded. You don't get
multiple phases for normal home use.

Martin

Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
"Our Republic and the Press will Rise or Fall Together": Joseph Pulitzer
TSRA: Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member. http://lufkinced.com/

On 6/9/2010 11:27 PM, Josepi wrote:
Or 120 degrees out of phase if fed off a network three phase system. Ths
can
be common in apartment buildings or large residental blocks. Now you get
the vector sum of two loads and have to consider the power factor also.

The end result is a low current, in the neutral, anyway, unless you have
pf
correction on one and not the other. Not likely in a residence.


"Martin H. wrote in message
...
Actually, the currents are added. The effect is subtraction.

One leg has a -1 vector tagged to it so when adding it becomes
subtraction.

Remember in the US and many other places the two voltages are 180 degrees
out of phase with the other.

Martin

Bill wrote:


Yes, I understand. If your breakers work the way they should, then
they would protect you, your family and your property. But don't
they fail on occasion?
I think of them as a backup.


If you keep trying to find potential problems this way, you will never wire
your garage. After all - what is the difference between and extension cord
and a wired outlet? If that breaker failure occurs, the impact is the same
at the outlet as it is at the extension cord. How do you think it is going
to be any safer by not using the extension cord?

Surely you don't really mean I think too much. By sharing my
thoughts here I often receive feedback, as you well know, and have a
chance to learn something
from some of the knowledgable folks here including you. A great deal,
perhaps most,
of the time, I learn things I would not have been informed enough to
ask about.
No thinking ~~ no learning. IMO, the percentage of people in the US
who think too much
is miniscule. I would not include myself in that group. My thinking
and my profession
revolves around the idea that it is better to enourage learning. Surely
you subscribe
to that too, or you would not bother to teach! : ) Now enough with
that.

Well, there is a difference between seeking knowledge on matters not well
understood, and dwelling too long or too deep armed with only very basic
understandings. One can easily draw inappropriate conclusions based on too
little understanding and a well intended interest in safety (for example).
This can lead to minor inconveniences (a decision not to use extension cords
due to a faulty conclusion safety), or it can lead to more critical
errors (a misplaced trust in a "safer" method that really is not).

--

-Mike-

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...
Bill wrote:


Yes, I understand. If your breakers work the way they should, then
they would protect you, your family and your property. But don't
they fail on occasion?
I think of them as a backup.


If you keep trying to find potential problems this way, you will never
wire your garage. After all - what is the difference between and
extension cord and a wired outlet? If that breaker failure occurs, the
impact is the same at the outlet as it is at the extension cord. How do
you think it is going to be any safer by not using the extension cord?


My point was that a regular extension cord was less likely to incur an issue
in the first place rather an multi-pound box containing 2 duplex outlets.
It would be quite easy,
for instance, for someone to spill a liquid into or kick the latter compared
to
a regular extension cord or a wall outlet. My neighbor's dog might even pee
on it. ; )

I AM eager to get the garage wired. I may have been half done by now, but
I was persuaded to "pull a permit" after I determined it wouldn't be too
difficult to apply. I'll submit my application on Monday and they should
reply in 3-5 days, so it was written. Possible loss of my homeowner's
insurance protection
was the most convincing factor. Hopefully this will be just a minor set
back.
I am chomping at the bit! Saw-shopping at the auction used up a few days
this week.
To be honest, facing a level of bureaucracy slowed me from having already
submitted
my application. This is my fault. This goes back to "The hardest part about
getting something done
is starting (or something else)"--especially when it something you haven't
done before.

As far as the details concerning the job, the main concern I have is "how
well" I need
to get the cable from one side of the attic to an adjacent corner.
Currently virtually all of
the cables of the house are lying unprotected in the attic. I would like to
do something in between
pulling up the attic floor boards and drilling holes in the joists, and just
laying 4 new cables
next to the ones already there. How about stapling the new cabkes to the
base of the ceiling
joists (using the appropriate staples)? Is that likely to pass an
inspection based on the situation
I've described? Obviously staping them to the floor boards is a horrible
concept, because, for instance,
I will need to get under those to install my lighting boxes.

Bill