Well guys, lunacy got the better of me and I drove down to the local
Industrial Machinery dealer to look at REAL table saws. I've had
enough of the warped table, 30" fence, noisy motor, and crappy cuts on
my cheap old contractor saw.

Looked around the place to see what other possible options existed.

General 50-185 - nahh - yet another cheesy imported contractor saw.
Decent looking Bies clone fence, made in Canada, but without the
handle retaining magnet. Same old twin parallel-bar arbor supports
that twist ever so slightly every time you change blade angles.
Taiwanese motor that looked pretty decent. Good paint job, that odd
General color. Nicely detailed metal adjustment wheels, but the
effect is ruined by the cheap-ass pin locators that allow the handles
to flop around. Shoulda used a flat and setscrew, guys - it can't
cost THAT much. After all, this is one of the main connections a user
has with his machine. Table finish was pretty good - couldn't catch a
fingernail on the mill marks, but there was an odd pattern to them..

General 650-T50 - much better, and the price demonstrates that fact.
Won't break this one down, as it is way more expensive than I had in
mind. But it did seem like a fine saw, with a nicely polished table.

Delta 'Hybrid' - ugghh... there are no words to describe how I feel
about this abortion. Completely Chinese. Flimsy contractor saw mech,
motor in base, cheesy handwheels, promising on-off switch - but
probably has under-rated pot-metal contacts, as do most. Table finish
is fair, but I didn't bother to check for warpage. Not a contender.
And the price? Get serious! I vowed to never own a Sears product
again, even though I was a devout customer in the 70s and own about a
thousand pounds of Craftsman Mechanics tools, but this thing makes
their new hybrid look pretty good. There is something funky about the
arbor as well.

Powermatic PM66 - Fantastic saw, fantastic table finish, exceedingly
smooth mechanism, great wheels, Baldor motor, great mobile base that
moves this behemoth with a 52" fence and extension table effortlessly
with one finger. Interestingly, it uses only 2 2V belts, rather than
the three 3V belts generally seen in a saw of this caliber. I have no
doubt, however, that it will cut anything you throw at it. The price
reflects it's perfection - at $2200+. I'm not all that fond of
Powermatic Gold - but if I could afford it, I could learn to love it.
No Farm Store motors for this puppy, it doesn't appear to have a
standard mounting frame, but a very proprietary motor mount.
(As does the Delta Unisaw.)

Ahhh, the Delta Unisaw - there it is. The table saw many a young man
has dreamed of for well over 25 years. Biesemeyer, the fence that
everyone likes, is pretty long in the tooth, but solid and very heavy.
Very little deflection - locks down solid. But the faces are not
replaceable without major surgery should they become damaged.
And the adjustment screws are not very convenient to adjust.
Good thing you only have to do it once.
The fence rule is a thin metal affair that is glued to the fence rail.
The Delta Uni Fence. The Uni Fence is pretty cool. Lots of neat
looking fasteners and the adjustments seem easy to get to. Many novel
features. Scale is up and out of the way - I like the look and feel,
but it seems a bit complicated, and not straddle jig friendly at all.
Saw proudly displays a sticker - Made in USA. But is it? Press on...
Can't get into the motor housing, they still have the screw installed.
Handwheels are heavy, but the castings are a little rough. And those
shiny but rough T-shaped, winged locking knobs just look crappy - like
a glorified wing nut. I suppose they work, but a triangle shape with
the corners lobbed off and the in-betweens rounded inward would be
much more appropriate. Or just round. The mechanism is fairly smooth.
Clearly visible table milling marks, but nothing too bad. Blow molded
double layer motor cover - this should help quiet the saw's motor. 4"
dust port, chutes for dust collection. What appears to be a magnetic
switch, but they just HAVE to call it a GPE switch - or is it a LVC?
Damned acronyms. Switch looks rather dated. No paddle for quick
shutoff, but the GO button is recessed, and the STOP button is a
mushroom. Should be easy enough to hit in a hurry, and is located
just below the fence rail on the left of the saw. It's sure as hell
an improvement over the "Switch of Death" that came on my current saw.
Chinese saw blade. Cripes, why do they do that? Just sell the damned
saw and let the user save a few bucks and buy a real blade of his
choice. The extension table is nothing special, and has rough lumber
showing on the end. It's not flush to the saw table wing, but it's
close - could be assembly error and abuse. Oh, and the blade guard,
what a joke. It allegedly props up for blade changes, but don't count
on it staying there. It's no wonder so many of these things end up
sitting in a dusty shop corner.

Most of the saws on display are thrown together haphazardly or
incompletely. Not a good way to make a positive first impression.
Damned, has every one just given up? Where is the pride in
workmanship? For that matter, where is the greed that one assumes
would demand a good showing of your wares?

Oh, well. Welcome to the 21st century - where nobody gives a ****.

Here's the deal - they have a stack of refurbished 36-L31XBC50 saws
for $1249. Pretty good deal, even with a few warts. So I bought one.
I picked a salesman who actually looked me in the eye and said "Hello"
when I came in. Most of them wandered around and ignored me. A nice
old gentleman in a flannel shirt - named Ron. Don't get me wrong, I
don't want anyone hanging over my shoulder, pressuring me like a car
salesmen, but Jeeze... Look in my direction once or twice, act
interested, acknowledge my existence.

Got it loaded up fairly quickly. The forklift operator was careful.
Thanked the salesman, tied it down with ratcheting straps brought for
the job, and left. Man, is the road in this industrial park pathetic.
Holes and railroad tracks so deep you have to slow to 2 MPH to keep
from bottoming the suspension. Carefully, cautiously, I completed the
trek home. Watching for every cell-phone yakking idiot, every
red-light running moron - and there were a slew of them.
Man, I hate cities like this.
Fortunately, I don't have far to go - about 10 miles.

Arrived at the homestead and carefully backed into the drive. I don't
want anything untoward happening to this saw - it's got to last a
lifetime. (Which in my case, probably isn't that long...)

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw01.jpg

Unloaded all the accessories, and then came the moment that separates
mice from men. Pulled the tailgate and slid two 2x10s with metal
hooks over the bumper. Slid the saw to the edge and down the planks.
No problem, but man is this thing heavy! SWMBO helps push the monster
out of the bed, and helps stabilize it from tipping over. Great!
It's on the ground. Now for the hand truck. Wow, it's STILL heavy as
hell. Carefully rolled it into the garage - the tip sensor says
everything is OK - no red. Everything should be cool.

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw02.jpg

Stripped the straps and box. The pallet just falls off - the attaching
screws have been ripped off in some previous life, and all that was
holding it to the saw are the straps. Well, that's OK - I don't have
to find a wrench and crawl around on the floor looking for fasteners.
I pulled the extension wings off the table surface, and placed them on
the now empty box. These things are heavy as hell!

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw03.jpg

I stand back for a good look. Cabinet looks like new, base is not
bent, switch isn't broken. But wait, what's this? My heart implodes.
The tilt adjustment shaft looks wonkey. Maybe it's an illusion. So I
scramble towards the saw for a closer look.

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw05.jpg

Yea, something's funny here, the end of the shaft looks smashed. I
pull the motor cover and wrestle with the expanded foam bags and foam
blocks. These have apparently been foamed in place, 'cause its darn
near impossible to remove them - even with the motor lifted and tilted
to an optimum angle. Finally, I hold my mouth in just the right
position and they fly to freedom. I pull the blade and hardware box
from the base, and open it, frantically looking for the handwheel and
shaft key. What's this? A crummy, poorly stapled, one sided copy of
the owners manual, for a different model, and no parts list or
exploded diagrams. (Yes, I know you can download copies, it's just
not the same as an original.)

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw04.jpg

I slip the key in the slot and it doesn't fit properly. I finally
find a position that it accepts and slide the wheel over the shaft.
Uh-Oh.. it doesn't go on very far. But it's enough to rotate the
shaft. My worst fears are confirmed. The shaft is bent! About 2
inches into the cabinet, there is a severe bend. ARRGGHH!!!

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw06.jpg

So I inspect the reminder of the saw - what's this? Apparently the
saw has been damaged previously, and the front trunnion has been
replaced. It appears that a large monkey with a sledge hammer has
been recruited to repair this saw. The motor shaft has been driven in
with a hammer and the shaft is peened over from the blows. And a WEG
motor - made in Brazil of all places. No Baldor for MY Unisaw.
Well, at least it's not Chinese. Unlike the handwheels, accessory
castings, the miter gauge, and most of the hardware.

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw07.jpg

A quick scan of the net shows no outstanding motor problems, and WEG
motors are used in a number of applications - including huge 100 HP
industrial models. I guess it'll be OK.

Then I notice the serial number has been cut from the unit.
How fracken tacky - makes it look like stolen merchandise. I don't
mind the refurb sticker, but in this age of computer tracking,
wouldn't it suffice to simply tag it in the computer as a refurb and
affix a label designating it as such? Is it necessary to totally
orphan the unit by slicing away it's birth certificate?
They don't do this with refurb electronic equipment.

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw13.jpg

I rub away the cosmolene to reveal the table surface. The surface
finish on the table is rough - so rough you can file your fingernails
down on the grooves. This has me very concerned. Sliding a piece of
wood over the surface with slight pressure results in wood dust on the
table. The table has been ground so far that the miter bar is only
..001" below the surface of the table at points. The edges of the
miter slot are sharp, and will have to be chamfered slightly, for fear
of physical injury. I checked the table with a machinist straightedge
and feeler gauges. The main table is flat within .003", averaging
slightly better. The side extensions are generally flat within .003",
but there is one dip that is out .006" They are milled the with the
same finish the table. I have not mounted the extensions, so I cannot
comment on the overall flatness and alignment of the top assembled.

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw09.jpg

Certainly nothing like the Delta jointer I bought a couple years ago.

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw11.jpg

There is a curious bracket inside the saw, which from all appearances
will prevent a blade from being mounted. It's not mentioned in the
instructions, and since I didn't get a fricken parts manual, I don't
know what it is yet, or whether I am supposed to remove it. Probably
has to do with stiffening the carriage for shipping. Check out the
table finish, under the gooey stuff.

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw10.jpg

On the plus side, the fence, rails, extension table and legs are all
new items. As is the disposable Chinese blade - it should work fine
for cutting up 2x4's. The Forest Woodworker II is coming off the old
contractor saw tomorrow.

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw08.jpg

I checked for interference with the motor and such, plugged it in, and
fired it up. It thumped like a cold nylon bias-ply tire for a several
seconds but smoothed out after a few more. The belts had been sitting
in the same spot for over a year according to the serial number - no
wait, THERE ISN'T ONE - according to the date on the refurb sticker.

Haven't got time tonight to clean it up and REALLY go over it, but so
far, it's seems functional - but that table is damned rough.

The cabinet is clean, the accessories new, the price was considerably
cheaper than the NEW Unisaw. You can't blame Delta for the damage to
the shaft which was probably caused by the shipper slamming the unit
into the side of the truck cargo bay, thereby ripping the pallet
holdowns from the base and bending the shaft. I CAN blame Delta for
not providing a stack of captive cardboard or high density foam to
protect it. And lumpy belts are just the nature of rubber belts that
have sat for an extended period. I believe they will smooth out once
it is fully assembled and run in.
I'll perform the infamous dime test later on. (Inflation, ya know.)

My initial impression is that the Grizzly 1023SL table finish is
looking pretty good at this point, but I am still fearful of shipping
damage with these as well. And I was able to place my hands on the
Delta immediately. But the poor table finish leaves me somewhat
disappointed.

Lest you think I am a Delta basher, have a look at this. The
Taiwanese imports were excellent. And I've put up with some marginal
quality on some of their Chinese stuff, simply to support them, and
Norm, and PBS, and a US based company - in hopes that things would get
better. But my loyalty has been wavering. I have a Jet lathe and
some Dewalt and Bosch tools, but Delta has been the mainstay.

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw12.jpg

I'm not soliciting sympathy, or support, or even comments from the
wREC. This is an hour wasted simply as a public service - to save
others from any unexpected surprises should they decide to purchase
one of these saws.

And pardon me for being concerned, but I like to buy things that are
Made in America. Even if many of the parts are imported. It's nice
to see my neighbors working and able to afford food and overpriced
heating oil. Hell, I'll be eating rice and beans for the next year...

Granted, I've been a bit harsh, and the saw will probably run fine for
many years. But the fit and finish are not quite up to the standards
I expected from the grand old name of Unisaw.
But you get what you pay for - minus stock commissions.

I'll do a thorough test & alignment after I decide what to do with it.
The table, although certainly flat enough for woodworking, is in
serious need of some polishing. And it looks like I'll have to tear
down the mech and replace that blasted bent shaft, 'cause there's no
way I'm loading this thing back up to swap for another unit. And
allowing another trained monkey to hammer shafts into place is not
even a realistic consideration. It'll give me a chance to "bond".

There is no better way to understand the inner workings of a machine
than to tear it down and put it back together again. Then, when or if
something goes wrong, or you hear a funny sound, you know exactly what
it is and what to do about it - saving yourself time, energy, and
quite possibly, serious bodily injury.

I guess I've got to think up a name for her...

Was Halloween full of horror this year? You decide!


Greg G.

"Greg G." wrote in message
...

Well guys, lunacy got the better of me and I drove down to the local
Industrial Machinery dealer to look at REAL table saws. I've had
enough of the warped table, 30" fence, noisy motor, and crappy cuts on
my cheap old contractor saw.


Argh! Thanks for the experience Greg. What a shame to have to put up with
some of the workmanship issues that came packaged in that box. I don't care
what a saw sells for new, or that it's reconditioned - $1200 is still $1200,
no matter how you cut it. At that price I would expect quality. With that
name, I would expect quality. You're too forgiving with your willingness to
take on some of the issues yourself - bent shaft, sharp edges, etc. Or
maybe I'm not forgiving enough, but I would have expected better quality
than that for the money.

I'm sure it's far better than your "cheap old contractor saw", and it will
probably sit well in the middle of the floor when it's all done, but this
kind of stuff makes it a slower path to that satisfaction of going out there
just before bed time and turning on the lights just one more time for a
quick look.

All the same - congratulations on making one of those long awaited
purchases.

--

-Mike-

I think a valuable lesson here is to check out machines before taking them
home. I see new Uni's at the local WW shop for about $1400, so the savings
don't seem all that great on th erefurb??

I bought my big planer from an outfit in Charlotte, NC which has their
Taiwan stuff made to order, with personal involvement of the Leneave family.
It's great and looks just like many of the others, but was only about $800
for 15". They say they have a comparable cabinet saw, which was $1000 a
year or so ago. Of course fuel and iron prices have probably hit it by now.
It's Leneave Machinery&Supply, if anyone wants to do a GS and talk to them.
I like the family involvement and I think they are honest. Of course they
have all the other tools too. I think they serve mostly industrial
companies but they are very nice on the phone.

Wilson
"Greg G." wrote in message
...

Well guys, lunacy got the better of me and I drove down to the local
Industrial Machinery dealer to look at REAL table saws. I've had
enough of the warped table, 30" fence, noisy motor, and crappy cuts on
my cheap old contractor saw.

Looked around the place to see what other possible options existed.

General 50-185 - nahh - yet another cheesy imported contractor saw.
Decent looking Bies clone fence, made in Canada, but without the
handle retaining magnet. Same old twin parallel-bar arbor supports
that twist ever so slightly every time you change blade angles.
Taiwanese motor that looked pretty decent. Good paint job, that odd
General color. Nicely detailed metal adjustment wheels, but the
effect is ruined by the cheap-ass pin locators that allow the handles
to flop around. Shoulda used a flat and setscrew, guys - it can't
cost THAT much. After all, this is one of the main connections a user
has with his machine. Table finish was pretty good - couldn't catch a
fingernail on the mill marks, but there was an odd pattern to them..

General 650-T50 - much better, and the price demonstrates that fact.
Won't break this one down, as it is way more expensive than I had in
mind. But it did seem like a fine saw, with a nicely polished table.

Delta 'Hybrid' - ugghh... there are no words to describe how I feel
about this abortion. Completely Chinese. Flimsy contractor saw mech,
motor in base, cheesy handwheels, promising on-off switch - but
probably has under-rated pot-metal contacts, as do most. Table finish
is fair, but I didn't bother to check for warpage. Not a contender.
And the price? Get serious! I vowed to never own a Sears product
again, even though I was a devout customer in the 70s and own about a
thousand pounds of Craftsman Mechanics tools, but this thing makes
their new hybrid look pretty good. There is something funky about the
arbor as well.

Powermatic PM66 - Fantastic saw, fantastic table finish, exceedingly
smooth mechanism, great wheels, Baldor motor, great mobile base that
moves this behemoth with a 52" fence and extension table effortlessly
with one finger. Interestingly, it uses only 2 2V belts, rather than
the three 3V belts generally seen in a saw of this caliber. I have no
doubt, however, that it will cut anything you throw at it. The price
reflects it's perfection - at $2200+. I'm not all that fond of
Powermatic Gold - but if I could afford it, I could learn to love it.
No Farm Store motors for this puppy, it doesn't appear to have a
standard mounting frame, but a very proprietary motor mount.
(As does the Delta Unisaw.)

Ahhh, the Delta Unisaw - there it is. The table saw many a young man
has dreamed of for well over 25 years. Biesemeyer, the fence that
everyone likes, is pretty long in the tooth, but solid and very heavy.
Very little deflection - locks down solid. But the faces are not
replaceable without major surgery should they become damaged.
And the adjustment screws are not very convenient to adjust.
Good thing you only have to do it once.
The fence rule is a thin metal affair that is glued to the fence rail.
The Delta Uni Fence. The Uni Fence is pretty cool. Lots of neat
looking fasteners and the adjustments seem easy to get to. Many novel
features. Scale is up and out of the way - I like the look and feel,
but it seems a bit complicated, and not straddle jig friendly at all.
Saw proudly displays a sticker - Made in USA. But is it? Press on...
Can't get into the motor housing, they still have the screw installed.
Handwheels are heavy, but the castings are a little rough. And those
shiny but rough T-shaped, winged locking knobs just look crappy - like
a glorified wing nut. I suppose they work, but a triangle shape with
the corners lobbed off and the in-betweens rounded inward would be
much more appropriate. Or just round. The mechanism is fairly smooth.
Clearly visible table milling marks, but nothing too bad. Blow molded
double layer motor cover - this should help quiet the saw's motor. 4"
dust port, chutes for dust collection. What appears to be a magnetic
switch, but they just HAVE to call it a GPE switch - or is it a LVC?
Damned acronyms. Switch looks rather dated. No paddle for quick
shutoff, but the GO button is recessed, and the STOP button is a
mushroom. Should be easy enough to hit in a hurry, and is located
just below the fence rail on the left of the saw. It's sure as hell
an improvement over the "Switch of Death" that came on my current saw.
Chinese saw blade. Cripes, why do they do that? Just sell the damned
saw and let the user save a few bucks and buy a real blade of his
choice. The extension table is nothing special, and has rough lumber
showing on the end. It's not flush to the saw table wing, but it's
close - could be assembly error and abuse. Oh, and the blade guard,
what a joke. It allegedly props up for blade changes, but don't count
on it staying there. It's no wonder so many of these things end up
sitting in a dusty shop corner.

Most of the saws on display are thrown together haphazardly or
incompletely. Not a good way to make a positive first impression.
Damned, has every one just given up? Where is the pride in
workmanship? For that matter, where is the greed that one assumes
would demand a good showing of your wares?

Oh, well. Welcome to the 21st century - where nobody gives a ****.

Here's the deal - they have a stack of refurbished 36-L31XBC50 saws
for $1249. Pretty good deal, even with a few warts. So I bought one.
I picked a salesman who actually looked me in the eye and said "Hello"
when I came in. Most of them wandered around and ignored me. A nice
old gentleman in a flannel shirt - named Ron. Don't get me wrong, I
don't want anyone hanging over my shoulder, pressuring me like a car
salesmen, but Jeeze... Look in my direction once or twice, act
interested, acknowledge my existence.

Got it loaded up fairly quickly. The forklift operator was careful.
Thanked the salesman, tied it down with ratcheting straps brought for
the job, and left. Man, is the road in this industrial park pathetic.
Holes and railroad tracks so deep you have to slow to 2 MPH to keep
from bottoming the suspension. Carefully, cautiously, I completed the
trek home. Watching for every cell-phone yakking idiot, every
red-light running moron - and there were a slew of them.
Man, I hate cities like this.
Fortunately, I don't have far to go - about 10 miles.

Arrived at the homestead and carefully backed into the drive. I don't
want anything untoward happening to this saw - it's got to last a
lifetime. (Which in my case, probably isn't that long...)

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw01.jpg

Unloaded all the accessories, and then came the moment that separates
mice from men. Pulled the tailgate and slid two 2x10s with metal
hooks over the bumper. Slid the saw to the edge and down the planks.
No problem, but man is this thing heavy! SWMBO helps push the monster
out of the bed, and helps stabilize it from tipping over. Great!
It's on the ground. Now for the hand truck. Wow, it's STILL heavy as
hell. Carefully rolled it into the garage - the tip sensor says
everything is OK - no red. Everything should be cool.

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw02.jpg

Stripped the straps and box. The pallet just falls off - the attaching
screws have been ripped off in some previous life, and all that was
holding it to the saw are the straps. Well, that's OK - I don't have
to find a wrench and crawl around on the floor looking for fasteners.
I pulled the extension wings off the table surface, and placed them on
the now empty box. These things are heavy as hell!

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw03.jpg

I stand back for a good look. Cabinet looks like new, base is not
bent, switch isn't broken. But wait, what's this? My heart implodes.
The tilt adjustment shaft looks wonkey. Maybe it's an illusion. So I
scramble towards the saw for a closer look.

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw05.jpg

Yea, something's funny here, the end of the shaft looks smashed. I
pull the motor cover and wrestle with the expanded foam bags and foam
blocks. These have apparently been foamed in place, 'cause its darn
near impossible to remove them - even with the motor lifted and tilted
to an optimum angle. Finally, I hold my mouth in just the right
position and they fly to freedom. I pull the blade and hardware box
from the base, and open it, frantically looking for the handwheel and
shaft key. What's this? A crummy, poorly stapled, one sided copy of
the owners manual, for a different model, and no parts list or
exploded diagrams. (Yes, I know you can download copies, it's just
not the same as an original.)

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw04.jpg

I slip the key in the slot and it doesn't fit properly. I finally
find a position that it accepts and slide the wheel over the shaft.
Uh-Oh.. it doesn't go on very far. But it's enough to rotate the
shaft. My worst fears are confirmed. The shaft is bent! About 2
inches into the cabinet, there is a severe bend. ARRGGHH!!!

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw06.jpg

So I inspect the reminder of the saw - what's this? Apparently the
saw has been damaged previously, and the front trunnion has been
replaced. It appears that a large monkey with a sledge hammer has
been recruited to repair this saw. The motor shaft has been driven in
with a hammer and the shaft is peened over from the blows. And a WEG
motor - made in Brazil of all places. No Baldor for MY Unisaw.
Well, at least it's not Chinese. Unlike the handwheels, accessory
castings, the miter gauge, and most of the hardware.

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw07.jpg

A quick scan of the net shows no outstanding motor problems, and WEG
motors are used in a number of applications - including huge 100 HP
industrial models. I guess it'll be OK.

Then I notice the serial number has been cut from the unit.
How fracken tacky - makes it look like stolen merchandise. I don't
mind the refurb sticker, but in this age of computer tracking,
wouldn't it suffice to simply tag it in the computer as a refurb and
affix a label designating it as such? Is it necessary to totally
orphan the unit by slicing away it's birth certificate?
They don't do this with refurb electronic equipment.

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw13.jpg

I rub away the cosmolene to reveal the table surface. The surface
finish on the table is rough - so rough you can file your fingernails
down on the grooves. This has me very concerned. Sliding a piece of
wood over the surface with slight pressure results in wood dust on the
table. The table has been ground so far that the miter bar is only
.001" below the surface of the table at points. The edges of the
miter slot are sharp, and will have to be chamfered slightly, for fear
of physical injury. I checked the table with a machinist straightedge
and feeler gauges. The main table is flat within .003", averaging
slightly better. The side extensions are generally flat within .003",
but there is one dip that is out .006" They are milled the with the
same finish the table. I have not mounted the extensions, so I cannot
comment on the overall flatness and alignment of the top assembled.

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw09.jpg

Certainly nothing like the Delta jointer I bought a couple years ago.

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw11.jpg

There is a curious bracket inside the saw, which from all appearances
will prevent a blade from being mounted. It's not mentioned in the
instructions, and since I didn't get a fricken parts manual, I don't
know what it is yet, or whether I am supposed to remove it. Probably
has to do with stiffening the carriage for shipping. Check out the
table finish, under the gooey stuff.

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw10.jpg

On the plus side, the fence, rails, extension table and legs are all
new items. As is the disposable Chinese blade - it should work fine
for cutting up 2x4's. The Forest Woodworker II is coming off the old
contractor saw tomorrow.

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw08.jpg

I checked for interference with the motor and such, plugged it in, and
fired it up. It thumped like a cold nylon bias-ply tire for a several
seconds but smoothed out after a few more. The belts had been sitting
in the same spot for over a year according to the serial number - no
wait, THERE ISN'T ONE - according to the date on the refurb sticker.

Haven't got time tonight to clean it up and REALLY go over it, but so
far, it's seems functional - but that table is damned rough.

The cabinet is clean, the accessories new, the price was considerably
cheaper than the NEW Unisaw. You can't blame Delta for the damage to
the shaft which was probably caused by the shipper slamming the unit
into the side of the truck cargo bay, thereby ripping the pallet
holdowns from the base and bending the shaft. I CAN blame Delta for
not providing a stack of captive cardboard or high density foam to
protect it. And lumpy belts are just the nature of rubber belts that
have sat for an extended period. I believe they will smooth out once
it is fully assembled and run in.
I'll perform the infamous dime test later on. (Inflation, ya know.)

My initial impression is that the Grizzly 1023SL table finish is
looking pretty good at this point, but I am still fearful of shipping
damage with these as well. And I was able to place my hands on the
Delta immediately. But the poor table finish leaves me somewhat
disappointed.

Lest you think I am a Delta basher, have a look at this. The
Taiwanese imports were excellent. And I've put up with some marginal
quality on some of their Chinese stuff, simply to support them, and
Norm, and PBS, and a US based company - in hopes that things would get
better. But my loyalty has been wavering. I have a Jet lathe and
some Dewalt and Bosch tools, but Delta has been the mainstay.

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw12.jpg

I'm not soliciting sympathy, or support, or even comments from the
wREC. This is an hour wasted simply as a public service - to save
others from any unexpected surprises should they decide to purchase
one of these saws.

And pardon me for being concerned, but I like to buy things that are
Made in America. Even if many of the parts are imported. It's nice
to see my neighbors working and able to afford food and overpriced
heating oil. Hell, I'll be eating rice and beans for the next year...

Granted, I've been a bit harsh, and the saw will probably run fine for
many years. But the fit and finish are not quite up to the standards
I expected from the grand old name of Unisaw.
But you get what you pay for - minus stock commissions.

I'll do a thorough test & alignment after I decide what to do with it.
The table, although certainly flat enough for woodworking, is in
serious need of some polishing. And it looks like I'll have to tear
down the mech and replace that blasted bent shaft, 'cause there's no
way I'm loading this thing back up to swap for another unit. And
allowing another trained monkey to hammer shafts into place is not
even a realistic consideration. It'll give me a chance to "bond".

There is no better way to understand the inner workings of a machine
than to tear it down and put it back together again. Then, when or if
something goes wrong, or you hear a funny sound, you know exactly what
it is and what to do about it - saving yourself time, energy, and
quite possibly, serious bodily injury.

I guess I've got to think up a name for her...

Was Halloween full of horror this year? You decide!


Greg G.

Since you took the time to do this I'll take the time to comment.

On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 04:03:53 -0500, Greg wrote:


Well guys, lunacy got the better of me and I drove down to the local
Industrial Machinery dealer to look at REAL table saws. I've had
enough of the warped table, 30" fence, noisy motor, and crappy cuts on
my cheap old contractor saw.

Looked around the place to see what other possible options existed.

General 50-185 - nahh - yet another cheesy imported contractor saw.
Decent looking Bies clone fence, made in Canada, but without the
handle retaining magnet. Same old twin parallel-bar arbor supports
that twist ever so slightly every time you change blade angles.
Taiwanese motor that looked pretty decent. Good paint job, that odd
General color. Nicely detailed metal adjustment wheels, but the
effect is ruined by the cheap-ass pin locators that allow the handles
to flop around. Shoulda used a flat and setscrew, guys - it can't
cost THAT much. After all, this is one of the main connections a user
has with his machine. Table finish was pretty good - couldn't catch a
fingernail on the mill marks, but there was an odd pattern to them..

General 650-T50 - much better, and the price demonstrates that fact.
Won't break this one down, as it is way more expensive than I had in
mind. But it did seem like a fine saw, with a nicely polished table.

Delta 'Hybrid' - ugghh... there are no words to describe how I feel
about this abortion. Completely Chinese. Flimsy contractor saw mech,
motor in base, cheesy handwheels, promising on-off switch - but
probably has under-rated pot-metal contacts, as do most. Table finish
is fair, but I didn't bother to check for warpage. Not a contender.
And the price? Get serious! I vowed to never own a Sears product
again, even though I was a devout customer in the 70s and own about a
thousand pounds of Craftsman Mechanics tools, but this thing makes
their new hybrid look pretty good. There is something funky about the
arbor as well.

Powermatic PM66 - Fantastic saw, fantastic table finish, exceedingly
smooth mechanism, great wheels, Baldor motor, great mobile base that
moves this behemoth with a 52" fence and extension table effortlessly
with one finger. Interestingly, it uses only 2 2V belts, rather than
the three 3V belts generally seen in a saw of this caliber. I have no
doubt, however, that it will cut anything you throw at it. The price
reflects it's perfection - at $2200+. I'm not all that fond of
Powermatic Gold - but if I could afford it, I could learn to love it.
No Farm Store motors for this puppy, it doesn't appear to have a
standard mounting frame, but a very proprietary motor mount.
(As does the Delta Unisaw.)

Ahhh, the Delta Unisaw - there it is. The table saw many a young man
has dreamed of for well over 25 years. Biesemeyer, the fence that
everyone likes, is pretty long in the tooth, but solid and very heavy.
Very little deflection - locks down solid. But the faces are not
replaceable without major surgery should they become damaged.
And the adjustment screws are not very convenient to adjust.
Good thing you only have to do it once.
The fence rule is a thin metal affair that is glued to the fence rail.
The Delta Uni Fence. The Uni Fence is pretty cool. Lots of neat
looking fasteners and the adjustments seem easy to get to. Many novel
features. Scale is up and out of the way - I like the look and feel,
but it seems a bit complicated, and not straddle jig friendly at all.
Saw proudly displays a sticker - Made in USA. But is it?

Yes

Press on...
Can't get into the motor housing, they still have the screw installed.

Required by UL. Your choice to leave it on. Cover will stay on
without it with the spring clips.

Handwheels are heavy, but the castings are a little rough. And those
shiny but rough T-shaped, winged locking knobs just look crappy - like
a glorified wing nut. I suppose they work, but a triangle shape with
the corners lobbed off and the in-betweens rounded inward would be
much more appropriate. Or just round. The mechanism is fairly smooth.
Clearly visible table milling marks, but nothing too bad. Blow molded
double layer motor cover - this should help quiet the saw's motor. 4"
dust port, chutes for dust collection. What appears to be a magnetic
switch, but they just HAVE to call it a GPE switch - or is it a LVC?
Damned acronyms. Switch looks rather dated. No paddle for quick
shutoff, but the GO button is recessed, and the STOP button is a
mushroom. Should be easy enough to hit in a hurry, and is located
just below the fence rail on the left of the saw. It's sure as hell
an improvement over the "Switch of Death" that came on my current saw.
Chinese saw blade. Cripes, why do they do that? Just sell the damned
saw and let the user save a few bucks and buy a real blade of his
choice.

If you are talking about the blade you have pictured in your picture
of accessories, it is very high quality blade manufactured by Leitz
in Germany. you may have also gotten a stamped steel blade mounted on
the unit, and if so probably Vermont American. UL requires the
inclusion of a blade. Many of the competitors are NOT UL LISTED AND
THEREFORE DO NOT HAVE TO SUPPLY A BLADE AND MOST DON'T.

The extension table is nothing special, and has rough lumber
showing on the end. It's not flush to the saw table wing, but it's
close - could be assembly error and abuse. Oh, and the blade guard,
what a joke. It allegedly props up for blade changes, but don't count
on it staying there. It's no wonder so many of these things end up
sitting in a dusty shop corner.

Once again, UL issue. UL requires that the blade guard fall of its
own accord when the insert is back in and the saw is operational. If
you don't take the extra pains to be UL listed you don't have to
follow this rule. And all standard guards of of a similar design
except that the non UL listed units don't have to follow the auto drop
rule.

Most of the saws on display are thrown together haphazardly or
incompletely. Not a good way to make a positive first impression.
Damned, has every one just given up? Where is the pride in
workmanship? For that matter, where is the greed that one assumes
would demand a good showing of your wares?

Oh, well. Welcome to the 21st century - where nobody gives a ****.

Here's the deal - they have a stack of refurbished 36-L31XBC50 saws
for $1249. Pretty good deal, even with a few warts. So I bought one.
I picked a salesman who actually looked me in the eye and said "Hello"
when I came in. Most of them wandered around and ignored me. A nice
old gentleman in a flannel shirt - named Ron. Don't get me wrong, I
don't want anyone hanging over my shoulder, pressuring me like a car
salesmen, but Jeeze... Look in my direction once or twice, act
interested, acknowledge my existence.

Redmon and sons perchance. If so very good dealer.

Got it loaded up fairly quickly. The forklift operator was careful.
Thanked the salesman, tied it down with ratcheting straps brought for
the job, and left. Man, is the road in this industrial park pathetic.
Holes and railroad tracks so deep you have to slow to 2 MPH to keep
from bottoming the suspension. Carefully, cautiously, I completed the
trek home. Watching for every cell-phone yakking idiot, every
red-light running moron - and there were a slew of them.
Man, I hate cities like this.
Fortunately, I don't have far to go - about 10 miles.

Arrived at the homestead and carefully backed into the drive. I don't
want anything untoward happening to this saw - it's got to last a
lifetime. (Which in my case, probably isn't that long...)

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw01.jpg

Unloaded all the accessories, and then came the moment that separates
mice from men. Pulled the tailgate and slid two 2x10s with metal
hooks over the bumper. Slid the saw to the edge and down the planks.
No problem, but man is this thing heavy! SWMBO helps push the monster
out of the bed, and helps stabilize it from tipping over. Great!
It's on the ground. Now for the hand truck. Wow, it's STILL heavy as
hell. Carefully rolled it into the garage - the tip sensor says
everything is OK - no red. Everything should be cool.

tilt watch is to indicate an uncontrolled tip over on someone's
shipping dock or warehouse. There was an earlier post where someone
was advised not to lay the saw over to change a sub base. It is not a
problem. you just cant let it free fall tilt. No saw could stand
that.

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw02.jpg

Stripped the straps and box. The pallet just falls off - the attaching
screws have been ripped off in some previous life, and all that was
holding it to the saw are the straps. Well, that's OK - I don't have
to find a wrench and crawl around on the floor looking for fasteners.
I pulled the extension wings off the table surface, and placed them on
the now empty box. These things are heavy as hell!

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw03.jpg

I stand back for a good look. Cabinet looks like new, base is not
bent, switch isn't broken. But wait, what's this? My heart implodes.
The tilt adjustment shaft looks wonkey. Maybe it's an illusion. So I
scramble towards the saw for a closer look.

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw05.jpg

Yea, something's funny here, the end of the shaft looks smashed. I
pull the motor cover and wrestle with the expanded foam bags and foam
blocks. These have apparently been foamed in place, 'cause its darn
near impossible to remove them - even with the motor lifted and tilted
to an optimum angle. Finally, I hold my mouth in just the right
position and they fly to freedom. I pull the blade and hardware box
from the base, and open it, frantically looking for the handwheel and
shaft key. What's this? A crummy, poorly stapled, one sided copy of
the owners manual, for a different model, and no parts list or
exploded diagrams. (Yes, I know you can download copies, it's just
not the same as an original.)

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw04.jpg

I slip the key in the slot and it doesn't fit properly. I finally
find a position that it accepts and slide the wheel over the shaft.
Uh-Oh.. it doesn't go on very far. But it's enough to rotate the
shaft. My worst fears are confirmed. The shaft is bent! About 2
inches into the cabinet, there is a severe bend. ARRGGHH!!!

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw06.jpg

So I inspect the reminder of the saw - what's this? Apparently the
saw has been damaged previously, and the front trunnion has been
replaced.

How can you tell?

It appears that a large monkey with a sledge hammer has
been recruited to repair this saw.

Arrogant, insulting and and innappropriate comment.

The motor shaft has been driven in
with a hammer and the shaft is peened over from the blows. And a WEG
motor - made in Brazil of all places. No Baldor for MY Unisaw.
Well, at least it's not Chinese. Unlike the handwheels, accessory
castings, the miter gauge, and most of the hardware.

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw07.jpg

A quick scan of the net shows no outstanding motor problems, and WEG
motors are used in a number of applications - including huge 100 HP
industrial models. I guess it'll be OK.

I believe the largest motor manufacturer in the world although I'm not
sure that is relevant.

Then I notice the serial number has been cut from the unit.
How fracken tacky - makes it look like stolen merchandise. I don't
mind the refurb sticker, but in this age of computer tracking,
wouldn't it suffice to simply tag it in the computer as a refurb and
affix a label designating it as such? Is it necessary to totally
orphan the unit by slicing away it's birth certificate?
They don't do this with refurb electronic equipment.

Many dealers are small and not set up to access computer data base.
They would honor a warranty based on the original serial number. The
warranty for reconditioned equipment different. It is a simple system
to make sure that the appropriate warranty applies.

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw13.jpg

I rub away the cosmolene to reveal the table surface. The surface
finish on the table is rough - so rough you can file your fingernails
down on the grooves.

Did you put a profilometer on it? The grind is a rotary wheel,
reciprcating table grind with a wheel large enough to cover the whole
table. It leaves a different profile than a blanchard grind (rotary
wheel, rotary table) or an engine grind (horizontal shaft wheel over a
linear feed table). Light reflection and pattern are different. I
would be willing to bet that would measure as good as whatever you are
comparing it to and well within the specifications.

RMS measurement is the statistical diference between the peaks and
valleys of a surface. each method provides a different pattern and
different light reflection many times with the sam RMS measurement.
I've compared some blanchard or engine surfaces that were three times
worse that the rotary/recip and would have sworn they were the same.


wood over the surface with slight pressure results in wood dust on the
table. The table has been ground so far that the miter bar is only
.001" below the surface of the table at points.

Outstanding. That is exactly what the factory trys to achieve. As
close to flush as possible without being above the table.


The edges of the
miter slot are sharp, and will have to be chamfered slightly, for fear
of physical injury. I checked the table with a machinist straightedge
and feeler gauges. The main table is flat within .003", averaging
slightly better.

Once again, outstanding. Well within the specifications in fact in
the top statistical quadrant depending on the direction measured.

The side extensions are generally flat within .003",
but there is one dip that is out .006" They are milled the with the
same finish the table. I have not mounted the extensions, so I cannot
comment on the overall flatness and alignment of the top assembled.

Probably will be very good and well within specifications. However,
you seem to be very particular and if you want perfection you can
always use shim stock to achieve that.

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw09.jpg

Certainly nothing like the Delta jointer I bought a couple years ago.

See comment above talking about the different types of grind processes


http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw11.jpg

There is a curious bracket inside the saw, which from all appearances
will prevent a blade from being mounted. It's not mentioned in the
instructions, and since I didn't get a fricken parts manual, I don't
know what it is yet, or whether I am supposed to remove it. Probably
has to do with stiffening the carriage for shipping. Check out the
table finish, under the gooey stuff.

Black U formed channel? Saw dust diverter. keeps the sawdust going
down instead of back up through the insert. However, from your
picture it may be installed improperly. Are the spacers on the inside
of the channel? I can't really tell, but if they are it is wrong.
Should be on the outside of the channel spaced off the front trunion.

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw10.jpg

On the plus side, the fence, rails, extension table and legs are all
new items. As is the disposable Chinese blade

See comment above. If you are pitching that Leitz blade, I'll take
it.


- it should work fine
for cutting up 2x4's. The Forest Woodworker II is coming off the old
contractor saw tomorrow.

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw08.jpg

I checked for interference with the motor and such, plugged it in, and
fired it up. It thumped like a cold nylon bias-ply tire for a several
seconds but smoothed out after a few more. The belts had been sitting
in the same spot for over a year according to the serial number - no
wait, THERE ISN'T ONE - according to the date on the refurb sticker.

Will stay smooth with regular use, will take a set if it sits. will
smooth back out with use.

Haven't got time tonight to clean it up and REALLY go over it, but so
far, it's seems functional - but that table is damned rough.

The cabinet is clean, the accessories new, the price was considerably
cheaper than the NEW Unisaw. You can't blame Delta for the damage to
the shaft which was probably caused by the shipper slamming the unit
into the side of the truck cargo bay, thereby ripping the pallet
holdowns from the base and bending the shaft. I CAN blame Delta for
not providing a stack of captive cardboard or high density foam to
protect it. And lumpy belts are just the nature of rubber belts that
have sat for an extended period. I believe they will smooth out once
it is fully assembled and run in.
I'll perform the infamous dime test later on. (Inflation, ya know.)

My initial impression is that the Grizzly 1023SL table finish is
looking pretty good at this point, but I am still fearful of shipping
damage with these as well. And I was able to place my hands on the
Delta immediately. But the poor table finish leaves me somewhat
disappointed.

Lest you think I am a Delta basher, have a look at this. The
Taiwanese imports were excellent. And I've put up with some marginal
quality on some of their Chinese stuff, simply to support them, and
Norm, and PBS, and a US based company - in hopes that things would get
better. But my loyalty has been wavering. I have a Jet lathe and
some Dewalt and Bosch tools, but Delta has been the mainstay.

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw12.jpg


Very good to see. Now for a larger shop............

I'm not soliciting sympathy, or support, or even comments from the
wREC. This is an hour wasted simply as a public service - to save
others from any unexpected surprises should they decide to purchase
one of these saws.

And pardon me for being concerned, but I like to buy things that are
Made in America. Even if many of the parts are imported. It's nice
to see my neighbors working and able to afford food and overpriced
heating oil. Hell, I'll be eating rice and beans for the next year...

Granted, I've been a bit harsh,

A touch.

and the saw will probably run fine for
many years. But the fit and finish are not quite up to the standards
I expected from the grand old name of Unisaw.
But you get what you pay for - minus stock commissions.

I'll do a thorough test & alignment after I decide what to do with it.
The table, although certainly flat enough for woodworking, is in
serious need of some polishing. And it looks like I'll have to tear
down the mech and replace that blasted bent shaft, 'cause there's no
way I'm loading this thing back up to swap for another unit

I'll be glad to walk you through that shaft replacement if you need
help.

.. And
allowing another trained monkey

See comment above. Repeat here.

to hammer shafts into place is not
even a realistic consideration. It'll give me a chance to "bond".

There is no better way to understand the inner workings of a machine
than to tear it down and put it back together again. Then, when or if
something goes wrong, or you hear a funny sound, you know exactly what
it is and what to do about it - saving yourself time, energy, and
quite possibly, serious bodily injury.

If you are going to take it apart, I certainly hope you have the
proper instruments to set the blade alignment and distance from the
slot after the fact. It may seem right until you tilt the blade to
45. The dimensional zone is fairly small.

I guess I've got to think up a name for her...

Was Halloween full of horror this year? You decide!


Greg G.

Greg,

I'm assuming your quoting Canadian dollars which comes to about 1,000USD
which is certainly a good deal when you consider used Uni's fetch an easy
$800+ in Central NY - if you can find one.

As for that top don't worry about it. Once you get several coats of wax on
it you'll love it. You're well within specs for flatness and it will change
as the iron ages. To bad about the slight damage on the shaft but I
certainly would approach the dealer with "I'll fix the problem but whatcha
gonna do fer me?".

Good post,

Bob S.

"Greg G." wrote in message
...

Well guys, lunacy got the better of me and I drove down to the local
Industrial Machinery dealer to look at REAL table saws. I've had
enough of the warped table, 30" fence, noisy motor, and crappy cuts on
my cheap old contractor saw.

Looked around the place to see what other possible options existed.

General 50-185 - nahh - yet another cheesy imported contractor saw.
Decent looking Bies clone fence, made in Canada, but without the
handle retaining magnet. Same old twin parallel-bar arbor supports
that twist ever so slightly every time you change blade angles.
Taiwanese motor that looked pretty decent. Good paint job, that odd
General color. Nicely detailed metal adjustment wheels, but the
effect is ruined by the cheap-ass pin locators that allow the handles
to flop around. Shoulda used a flat and setscrew, guys - it can't
cost THAT much. After all, this is one of the main connections a user
has with his machine. Table finish was pretty good - couldn't catch a
fingernail on the mill marks, but there was an odd pattern to them..

General 650-T50 - much better, and the price demonstrates that fact.
Won't break this one down, as it is way more expensive than I had in
mind. But it did seem like a fine saw, with a nicely polished table.

Delta 'Hybrid' - ugghh... there are no words to describe how I feel
about this abortion. Completely Chinese. Flimsy contractor saw mech,
motor in base, cheesy handwheels, promising on-off switch - but
probably has under-rated pot-metal contacts, as do most. Table finish
is fair, but I didn't bother to check for warpage. Not a contender.
And the price? Get serious! I vowed to never own a Sears product
again, even though I was a devout customer in the 70s and own about a
thousand pounds of Craftsman Mechanics tools, but this thing makes
their new hybrid look pretty good. There is something funky about the
arbor as well.

Powermatic PM66 - Fantastic saw, fantastic table finish, exceedingly
smooth mechanism, great wheels, Baldor motor, great mobile base that
moves this behemoth with a 52" fence and extension table effortlessly
with one finger. Interestingly, it uses only 2 2V belts, rather than
the three 3V belts generally seen in a saw of this caliber. I have no
doubt, however, that it will cut anything you throw at it. The price
reflects it's perfection - at $2200+. I'm not all that fond of
Powermatic Gold - but if I could afford it, I could learn to love it.
No Farm Store motors for this puppy, it doesn't appear to have a
standard mounting frame, but a very proprietary motor mount.
(As does the Delta Unisaw.)

Ahhh, the Delta Unisaw - there it is. The table saw many a young man
has dreamed of for well over 25 years. Biesemeyer, the fence that
everyone likes, is pretty long in the tooth, but solid and very heavy.
Very little deflection - locks down solid. But the faces are not
replaceable without major surgery should they become damaged.
And the adjustment screws are not very convenient to adjust.
Good thing you only have to do it once.
The fence rule is a thin metal affair that is glued to the fence rail.
The Delta Uni Fence. The Uni Fence is pretty cool. Lots of neat
looking fasteners and the adjustments seem easy to get to. Many novel
features. Scale is up and out of the way - I like the look and feel,
but it seems a bit complicated, and not straddle jig friendly at all.
Saw proudly displays a sticker - Made in USA. But is it? Press on...
Can't get into the motor housing, they still have the screw installed.
Handwheels are heavy, but the castings are a little rough. And those
shiny but rough T-shaped, winged locking knobs just look crappy - like
a glorified wing nut. I suppose they work, but a triangle shape with
the corners lobbed off and the in-betweens rounded inward would be
much more appropriate. Or just round. The mechanism is fairly smooth.
Clearly visible table milling marks, but nothing too bad. Blow molded
double layer motor cover - this should help quiet the saw's motor. 4"
dust port, chutes for dust collection. What appears to be a magnetic
switch, but they just HAVE to call it a GPE switch - or is it a LVC?
Damned acronyms. Switch looks rather dated. No paddle for quick
shutoff, but the GO button is recessed, and the STOP button is a
mushroom. Should be easy enough to hit in a hurry, and is located
just below the fence rail on the left of the saw. It's sure as hell
an improvement over the "Switch of Death" that came on my current saw.
Chinese saw blade. Cripes, why do they do that? Just sell the damned
saw and let the user save a few bucks and buy a real blade of his
choice. The extension table is nothing special, and has rough lumber
showing on the end. It's not flush to the saw table wing, but it's
close - could be assembly error and abuse. Oh, and the blade guard,
what a joke. It allegedly props up for blade changes, but don't count
on it staying there. It's no wonder so many of these things end up
sitting in a dusty shop corner.

Most of the saws on display are thrown together haphazardly or
incompletely. Not a good way to make a positive first impression.
Damned, has every one just given up? Where is the pride in
workmanship? For that matter, where is the greed that one assumes
would demand a good showing of your wares?

Oh, well. Welcome to the 21st century - where nobody gives a ****.

Here's the deal - they have a stack of refurbished 36-L31XBC50 saws
for $1249. Pretty good deal, even with a few warts. So I bought one.
I picked a salesman who actually looked me in the eye and said "Hello"
when I came in. Most of them wandered around and ignored me. A nice
old gentleman in a flannel shirt - named Ron. Don't get me wrong, I
don't want anyone hanging over my shoulder, pressuring me like a car
salesmen, but Jeeze... Look in my direction once or twice, act
interested, acknowledge my existence.

Got it loaded up fairly quickly. The forklift operator was careful.
Thanked the salesman, tied it down with ratcheting straps brought for
the job, and left. Man, is the road in this industrial park pathetic.
Holes and railroad tracks so deep you have to slow to 2 MPH to keep
from bottoming the suspension. Carefully, cautiously, I completed the
trek home. Watching for every cell-phone yakking idiot, every
red-light running moron - and there were a slew of them.
Man, I hate cities like this.
Fortunately, I don't have far to go - about 10 miles.

Arrived at the homestead and carefully backed into the drive. I don't
want anything untoward happening to this saw - it's got to last a
lifetime. (Which in my case, probably isn't that long...)

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw01.jpg

Unloaded all the accessories, and then came the moment that separates
mice from men. Pulled the tailgate and slid two 2x10s with metal
hooks over the bumper. Slid the saw to the edge and down the planks.
No problem, but man is this thing heavy! SWMBO helps push the monster
out of the bed, and helps stabilize it from tipping over. Great!
It's on the ground. Now for the hand truck. Wow, it's STILL heavy as
hell. Carefully rolled it into the garage - the tip sensor says
everything is OK - no red. Everything should be cool.

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw02.jpg

Stripped the straps and box. The pallet just falls off - the attaching
screws have been ripped off in some previous life, and all that was
holding it to the saw are the straps. Well, that's OK - I don't have
to find a wrench and crawl around on the floor looking for fasteners.
I pulled the extension wings off the table surface, and placed them on
the now empty box. These things are heavy as hell!

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw03.jpg

I stand back for a good look. Cabinet looks like new, base is not
bent, switch isn't broken. But wait, what's this? My heart implodes.
The tilt adjustment shaft looks wonkey. Maybe it's an illusion. So I
scramble towards the saw for a closer look.

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw05.jpg

Yea, something's funny here, the end of the shaft looks smashed. I
pull the motor cover and wrestle with the expanded foam bags and foam
blocks. These have apparently been foamed in place, 'cause its darn
near impossible to remove them - even with the motor lifted and tilted
to an optimum angle. Finally, I hold my mouth in just the right
position and they fly to freedom. I pull the blade and hardware box
from the base, and open it, frantically looking for the handwheel and
shaft key. What's this? A crummy, poorly stapled, one sided copy of
the owners manual, for a different model, and no parts list or
exploded diagrams. (Yes, I know you can download copies, it's just
not the same as an original.)

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw04.jpg

I slip the key in the slot and it doesn't fit properly. I finally
find a position that it accepts and slide the wheel over the shaft.
Uh-Oh.. it doesn't go on very far. But it's enough to rotate the
shaft. My worst fears are confirmed. The shaft is bent! About 2
inches into the cabinet, there is a severe bend. ARRGGHH!!!

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw06.jpg

So I inspect the reminder of the saw - what's this? Apparently the
saw has been damaged previously, and the front trunnion has been
replaced. It appears that a large monkey with a sledge hammer has
been recruited to repair this saw. The motor shaft has been driven in
with a hammer and the shaft is peened over from the blows. And a WEG
motor - made in Brazil of all places. No Baldor for MY Unisaw.
Well, at least it's not Chinese. Unlike the handwheels, accessory
castings, the miter gauge, and most of the hardware.

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw07.jpg

A quick scan of the net shows no outstanding motor problems, and WEG
motors are used in a number of applications - including huge 100 HP
industrial models. I guess it'll be OK.

Then I notice the serial number has been cut from the unit.
How fracken tacky - makes it look like stolen merchandise. I don't
mind the refurb sticker, but in this age of computer tracking,
wouldn't it suffice to simply tag it in the computer as a refurb and
affix a label designating it as such? Is it necessary to totally
orphan the unit by slicing away it's birth certificate?
They don't do this with refurb electronic equipment.

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw13.jpg

I rub away the cosmolene to reveal the table surface. The surface
finish on the table is rough - so rough you can file your fingernails
down on the grooves. This has me very concerned. Sliding a piece of
wood over the surface with slight pressure results in wood dust on the
table. The table has been ground so far that the miter bar is only
.001" below the surface of the table at points. The edges of the
miter slot are sharp, and will have to be chamfered slightly, for fear
of physical injury. I checked the table with a machinist straightedge
and feeler gauges. The main table is flat within .003", averaging
slightly better. The side extensions are generally flat within .003",
but there is one dip that is out .006" They are milled the with the
same finish the table. I have not mounted the extensions, so I cannot
comment on the overall flatness and alignment of the top assembled.

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw09.jpg

Certainly nothing like the Delta jointer I bought a couple years ago.

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw11.jpg

There is a curious bracket inside the saw, which from all appearances
will prevent a blade from being mounted. It's not mentioned in the
instructions, and since I didn't get a fricken parts manual, I don't
know what it is yet, or whether I am supposed to remove it. Probably
has to do with stiffening the carriage for shipping. Check out the
table finish, under the gooey stuff.

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw10.jpg

On the plus side, the fence, rails, extension table and legs are all
new items. As is the disposable Chinese blade - it should work fine
for cutting up 2x4's. The Forest Woodworker II is coming off the old
contractor saw tomorrow.

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw08.jpg

I checked for interference with the motor and such, plugged it in, and
fired it up. It thumped like a cold nylon bias-ply tire for a several
seconds but smoothed out after a few more. The belts had been sitting
in the same spot for over a year according to the serial number - no
wait, THERE ISN'T ONE - according to the date on the refurb sticker.

Haven't got time tonight to clean it up and REALLY go over it, but so
far, it's seems functional - but that table is damned rough.

The cabinet is clean, the accessories new, the price was considerably
cheaper than the NEW Unisaw. You can't blame Delta for the damage to
the shaft which was probably caused by the shipper slamming the unit
into the side of the truck cargo bay, thereby ripping the pallet
holdowns from the base and bending the shaft. I CAN blame Delta for
not providing a stack of captive cardboard or high density foam to
protect it. And lumpy belts are just the nature of rubber belts that
have sat for an extended period. I believe they will smooth out once
it is fully assembled and run in.
I'll perform the infamous dime test later on. (Inflation, ya know.)

My initial impression is that the Grizzly 1023SL table finish is
looking pretty good at this point, but I am still fearful of shipping
damage with these as well. And I was able to place my hands on the
Delta immediately. But the poor table finish leaves me somewhat
disappointed.

Lest you think I am a Delta basher, have a look at this. The
Taiwanese imports were excellent. And I've put up with some marginal
quality on some of their Chinese stuff, simply to support them, and
Norm, and PBS, and a US based company - in hopes that things would get
better. But my loyalty has been wavering. I have a Jet lathe and
some Dewalt and Bosch tools, but Delta has been the mainstay.

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw12.jpg

I'm not soliciting sympathy, or support, or even comments from the
wREC. This is an hour wasted simply as a public service - to save
others from any unexpected surprises should they decide to purchase
one of these saws.

And pardon me for being concerned, but I like to buy things that are
Made in America. Even if many of the parts are imported. It's nice
to see my neighbors working and able to afford food and overpriced
heating oil. Hell, I'll be eating rice and beans for the next year...

Granted, I've been a bit harsh, and the saw will probably run fine for
many years. But the fit and finish are not quite up to the standards
I expected from the grand old name of Unisaw.
But you get what you pay for - minus stock commissions.

I'll do a thorough test & alignment after I decide what to do with it.
The table, although certainly flat enough for woodworking, is in
serious need of some polishing. And it looks like I'll have to tear
down the mech and replace that blasted bent shaft, 'cause there's no
way I'm loading this thing back up to swap for another unit. And
allowing another trained monkey to hammer shafts into place is not
even a realistic consideration. It'll give me a chance to "bond".

There is no better way to understand the inner workings of a machine
than to tear it down and put it back together again. Then, when or if
something goes wrong, or you hear a funny sound, you know exactly what
it is and what to do about it - saving yourself time, energy, and
quite possibly, serious bodily injury.

I guess I've got to think up a name for her...

Was Halloween full of horror this year? You decide!


Greg G.

Don’t know where you are located but if you are in California there is some good news. Didn’t look like it form your pics. California requires all manufactures that distribute electrical/electronic products in the state to provide either (a) on-site warranty service, or (b) arrange and pay for pick up and delivery, for any item that is large and/or heavy such that a single person cannot reasonable move it themselves. In California, Delta is responsible to come to your place and picking up the saw or repairing it were it sits, or Delta must buy it back at the full cost that you paid for it.

This is an opportunity to mention that every state has different laws regarding warranties. Everyone should know their state’s laws. Federal law prohibits any manufacture of goods from arbitrarily limiting the ‘fitness’ of a product they sell (including refurb’d), or from disclaiming liability for incidental damages, i.e. if a $300 piece of teak is ruined due to a defect with a warantied machine, the manufacture can be made to compensate you for that piece of wood. Everyone should also review the federal Magnuson Moss Act, the federal law regarding warranties, liability, etc, but it also varies by state.

Greg - so, was the $250 savings worth (a) a peen’d motor spindle, (b) a wonky tilt adjustment shaft, (c) no birth certificate (serial number), (d) your 10-mile drive, (e) you having to unload and move around that critter, (f) photocopy of a manual, and (g) no parts diagram? You were told in your other thread you could get the same saw, BRAND NEW, with the ext table and mobile base, delivered to your shop for only $250 more.

On the last page of your photocopied manual should be instructions to use WD-40 and a 3M Scotch Brite blending hand pad on the table surface before using. Obviously won’t take out the tooling marks but it goes a long way to smoothing the surface. Don’t know but I would guess it knocks down micro burrs. They also say to use Top Cote on the table, you decide.

In your pic #9 – I don’t have a clue what that weird-assed bracket is. I have the same saw, just checked, nothing similar to it anywhere in mine.

Don't know what blade you got but the std Delta blade is part # 34-105. It's printed on the blade.

Btw, very nice shop you've put together.

On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 04:03:53 -0500, Greg wrote:

What appears to be a magnetic switch, but they just HAVE to call it
a GPE switch - or is it a LVC? Damned acronyms. Switch looks
rather dated. No paddle for quick shutoff, but the GO button is
recessed, and the STOP button is a mushroom. Should be easy
enough to hit in a hurry, and is located just below the fence rail on
the left of the saw. It's sure as hell an improvement over the "Switch
of Death" that came on my current saw.

Gary Parks Enterprises. He was the OEM supplier for a while for Delta.
He also makes the Furnas type, Off-On switches such as on the bandsaw
and jointer (DJ20).

He had some seconds for sale on ebay a couple of months ago and I
bought one identical to the one on my Uni. I'm not sure of all the
lingo regarding switches, but he needed to know the FLA of my motor
(that I was buying the switch for) to put the correct overload relay
in. Does that make it magnetic? If so, then it is.

We had a couple of very nice email exchanges. You might check ebay to
see if he still has the Furnas type switches--they're perfect for
router tables or to replace any cheesy switches on other cheap gear.

You will like the switch on the Uni. Just as you suggest, it is easy
to hit with your knee, in fact that is how I always turn it off.
Should be a good practice for the eventuality that might require an
automatic response on my part.


--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

Wilson wrote:
I bought my big planer from an outfit in Charlotte, NC which has their
Taiwan stuff made to order, with personal involvement of the Leneave family.
It's great and looks just like many of the others, but was only about $800
for 15". They say they have a comparable cabinet saw, which was $1000 a
year or so ago. Of course fuel and iron prices have probably hit it by now.
It's Leneave Machinery&Supply, if anyone wants to do a GS and talk to them.
I like the family involvement and I think they are honest. Of course they
have all the other tools too. I think they serve mostly industrial
companies but they are very nice on the phone.


We may have had this conversation before (I'm not sure) but I bought a 8" North
State jointer from them last year. It's a kind of hole in the wall place but
the man definitely knows his business and he's personable. I'd second your
recommendation.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

VE

joe2 said:

Don’t know where you are located but if you are in California there is
some good news. Didn’t look like it form your pics. California

No, don't live in California - about as far from it as you can get.
Although we do visit there several times a year.
We live in a backwards Southern US red state.
You know, the one that has that idiot, Newt Gingrich, in it.
Not many consumer laws to speak of at all.
The plutocrats pretty much run things around here.

And haven't had time to talk to the dealer, scrub it off, or much of
anything else, other that open it up.
Work and trick-or-treaters ya know.

And I REALLY would prefer to fix it myself. I enjoy that sort of
thing. I don't want a Delta rep or anyone else doing it.
I simply don't trust them. Mechanics are animals in this part of the
world. Too many people worried more about slap it out, not quality.
Would you want someone else to service your old lady?

I believe that if I can overhaul an 8 cylinder, dual overhead cam,
Mercedes engines, Ford 4 speed auto transmissions, or repair
Tektronics 100mhz 4 ch. military oscilloscopes, I think I can handle
some silly ass table saw.

Greg - so, was the $250 savings worth (a) a peen’d motor spindle, (b) a
wonky tilt adjustment shaft, (c) no birth certificate (serial number),
(d) your 10-mile drive, (e) you having to unload and move around that
critter, (f) photocopy of a manual, and (g) no parts diagram? You were
told in your other thread you could get the same saw, BRAND NEW, with
the ext table and mobile base, delivered to your shop for only $250
more.

There are many reasons I chose to buy locally. I prefer to buy
locally, for the same reasons I prefer to not to buy Chinese stuff.

AND, I can't get a UPS package delivered 50% of the time without the
box being crushed. I wasn't EVEN going to take the chance of having a
500lb saw delivered in one piece by some third rate freight company.

Hey, look at the trouble a dealer has in getting a truck full of them
delivered one piece - what chance do you think I stand.

So, to answer you're question. I don't know yet. The fat lady hasn't
sung.

In your pic #9 – I don’t have a clue what that weird-assed bracket is.
I have the same saw, just checked, nothing similar to it anywhere in
mine.

In the store, it looked like a dust deflector.
On mine, it may have been assembled improperly, it interferes with the
blade.

Btw, very nice shop you've put together.

Thanks. It sort of works for me, but there are too many darned doors.


Greg G.

The bent shaft is appalling, but was probably an accident. The bashed
mounting rods I see in one photo are outrageous! I can't imagine how this
was let out of the shop.

joe2 said:

Greg - so, was the $250 savings worth (a) a peen’d motor spindle, (b) a
wonky tilt adjustment shaft, (c) no birth certificate (serial number),
(d) your 10-mile drive, (e) you having to unload and move around that
critter, (f) photocopy of a manual, and (g) no parts diagram? You were
told in your other thread you could get the same saw, BRAND NEW, with
the ext table and mobile base, delivered to your shop for only $250
more.

Well, to begin with, the price difference more like $300. There is no
mobile base included with either saw, I don't believe the saw they are
selling is the same saw, they are the older 36-830A, and your quote
doesn't include a portion of the packing/delivery charges (They are
giving you the heavy freight surcharge) or the time and aggravation of
shipping problems. (Although it now appears I didn't come out too well
on that aspect either.)

And after searching their site for 5 minutes or so, I never found a
physical address for this company - which leads me to believe they are
a drop shipper. Which means that the product could come from any one
of dozens of vendors anywhere in the US. - with the associated
problems of varying dealer competence. I'd order a measuring tape or
something to check out their service before I would blindly order a
product of this size from an unfamiliar web site.

And as I stated before, I tend to prefer doing business with local
vendors - I like my neighbors to eat. Not some unknown halfway across
the country. Perhaps that comes off as old-school, but I grew up in a
different era - when people gave a **** about their neighbors, rather
than the Chinese or Koreans.

So, was it worth it?
Probably - they have alread called and offer a new saw.
Hauling it around? That part sucks no matter what the consequences.

As for the self-righteous tone - it sucks as well. :-)


Greg G.

Frank Boettcher said:

Since you took the time to do this I'll take the time to comment.

Same here.
Since I am a consumer, I don't have to pussyfoot around the facts.
I don't take advertising dollars or have stock in the company.
I am not insulting you personally or the heritage of Delta.

You seem like a pleasant, knowledgeable fellow, and as I commented on
in an earlier post, your anecdotes of life at the factory are music to
my ears. But you have to admit that you DO come off as just a wee bit
Pro-Delta.

But there are a lot of products in the market, and competition is what
drives innovation and improvement. Instead of mistaking observations
as personal attacks, you might consider improving the factors that
precipitated the complain and fixing them.

This not a Delta forum, and it is not moderated, so no one here has to
be concerned with offending ANY manufacturer with his opinion.
Heck, we talk about and bash Jet's, Powermatics, Harbor Freight, and
everything else under the sun.

Me thinks you may have some difficulty seeing the forest for the
trees, however. I understand you love Delta, you have spent a portion
of your life dedicated to producing the best products you could,
contingent on marketplace forces and board of director's whims.

None of my comments should be taken personally by you or anyone else.
With that said...

On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 04:03:53 -0500, Greg wrote:

Ahhh, the Delta Unisaw - there it is. The table saw many a young man
has dreamed of for well over 25 years. Biesemeyer, the fence that
everyone likes, is pretty long in the tooth, but solid and very heavy.
....
Saw proudly displays a sticker - Made in USA. But is it?

Yes,

Yes - from numerous foreign components.

To me, final assembly does not fully equate to "Made in USA."
I understand why components are imported, it's just a shame. I grew
up in a time when everything I bought was completely Made in the USA.
Switches, motors, hardware - EVERYTHING!

It's getting to the point that MFGs are considering putting an
imported Chinese item into a box - Made in USA.

And I swear, if I open up another box of deformed, crappy Chinese
nails, I'm gonna scream!

But I knew this going in...

Press on...
Can't get into the motor housing, they still have the screw installed.

Required by UL. Your choice to leave it on. Cover will stay on
without it with the spring clips.

Remember this is the store floor model I am discussing here, not my
saw. Mine didn't have a screw on it at all - they forgot to replace
it, or it fell out in shipping. And it's not in the bag, either. The
cover was just laying next to the saw when uncrated. The clips failed
to retain the motor cover during shipping.

Just sell the damned saw and let the user save a few bucks
and buy a real blade of his choice.

If you are talking about the blade you have pictured in your picture
of accessories, it is very high quality blade manufactured by Leitz
in Germany. you may have also gotten a stamped steel blade mounted on
the unit, and if so probably Vermont American. UL requires the
inclusion of a blade. Many of the competitors are NOT UL LISTED AND
THEREFORE DO NOT HAVE TO SUPPLY A BLADE AND MOST DON'T.

It's a 35-617 blade. If you can tell that from that crummy picture,
your eyes are better than mine - But I'll take your word for it, since
they didn't bother to print a country of origin on it.

I still prefer the WWII, however. Most of the other blades I have
gotten from Delta have been serviceable, but not great. They hold an
edge well, but splinter more than I care for. I don't expect
perfection from an OEM blade. I haven't actually USED the blade,
because the saw is not functional, so I didn't comment on the quality
of cut. But the printing sure looks Chinese to me - where did they
print the logo on the blade?

The extension table is nothing special, and has rough lumber
showing on the end. It's not flush to the saw table wing, but it's
close - could be assembly error and abuse. Oh, and the blade guard,
what a joke. It allegedly props up for blade changes, but don't count
on it staying there. It's no wonder so many of these things end up
sitting in a dusty shop corner.

Once again, UL issue. UL requires that the blade guard fall of its
own accord when the insert is back in and the saw is operational. If
you don't take the extra pains to be UL listed you don't have to
follow this rule. And all standard guards of of a similar design
except that the non UL listed units don't have to follow the auto drop
rule.

But nevertheless, it's a flaky, cost-cutting design. One display
model had a longer retaining tab, and it did work better, but this one
has had the tab reduced in height. It doesn't stay up if you breath
on it hard.

If this is the best manufacturers can come up with, then someone needs
to approach UL about revising it's requirements, because this design
leads to it being removed from the saw - not what they had in mind.

Redmon and sons perchance. If so very good dealer.

I'm not revealing the dealer until I have fully evaluated the
transaction. I'm not out to slam anyone needlessly.

Carefully rolled it into the garage - the tip sensor says
everything is OK - no red. Everything should be cool.

tilt watch is to indicate an uncontrolled tip over on someone's
shipping dock or warehouse. There was an earlier post where someone
was advised not to lay the saw over to change a sub base. It is not a
problem. you just cant let it free fall tilt. No saw could stand
that.

I fully understand that - and also understand the necessity of such a
device - as I commented to in one of your earlier posts.

So I inspect the reminder of the saw - what's this? Apparently the
saw has been damaged previously, and the front trunnion has been
replaced.

How can you tell?

I've been a mechanic and electronics tech for 40 years, you can tell
these things. Bolt heads, paint chips, damaged ends on shafts, etc.

It appears that a large monkey with a sledge hammer has
been recruited to repair this saw.

Arrogant, insulting and and innappropriate comment.

Perhaps, but I'm not personally attacking you. If a shaft is peened
over, and looks like it has been driven in with a hammer, then it
probably was.

But maybe you are right, perhaps I should instead insult Delta for not
providing this workman with the proper tools to do the job. Is it
standard procedure to hammer a shaft into place, thereby deforming the
end of the shaft? Not in any shop I've been at.

This brings to mind a guy laying on his back in a dark warehouse, with
a hammer in one hand, and cursing the weight of the unit under his
breath as he attempts to meet a production quota.

Is that better?

A quick scan of the net shows no outstanding motor problems, and WEG
motors are used in a number of applications - including huge 100 HP
industrial models. I guess it'll be OK.

I believe the largest motor manufacturer in the world although I'm not
sure that is relevant.

You can sell a lot of crap to a lot of people in this country, but
that doesn't mean it's quality. The motor does appear to be well made
and very heavy.

Then I notice the serial number has been cut from the unit.
How fracken tacky - makes it look like stolen merchandise. I don't
mind the refurb sticker, but in this age of computer tracking,
wouldn't it suffice to simply tag it in the computer as a refurb and
affix a label designating it as such? Is it necessary to totally
orphan the unit by slicing away it's birth certificate?
They don't do this with refurb electronic equipment.

Many dealers are small and not set up to access computer data base.
They would honor a warranty based on the original serial number. The
warranty for reconditioned equipment different. It is a simple system
to make sure that the appropriate warranty applies.

I understand the logistics of the situation, but I still feel that
removing the number is a bad idea. For instance, I will have
difficulty selling this saw if I ever decide to. Insurance companies
baulk at insuring an item that has no serial number, or worse, if it
is defaced. There are other reasons as well, but I think you get the
idea.

As for warrantee service, I have no intention of ever letting anyone
else work on my equipment. I repair my own cars, re-roof and re-side
my own house, write my own software, repair my own TVs and VCRs,
repair my own plumbing, electrical, HVAC, etc.

Of course, Delta has no way of knowing this beforehand...

finish on the table is rough - so rough you can file your fingernails
down on the grooves.

Did you put a profilometer on it? The grind is a rotary wheel,
reciprcating table grind with a wheel large enough to cover the whole
table. It leaves a different profile than a blanchard grind (rotary
wheel, rotary table) or an engine grind (horizontal shaft wheel over a
linear feed table). Light reflection and pattern are different. I
would be willing to bet that would measure as good as whatever you are
comparing it to and well within the specifications.

Don't happen to have on of those in my back pocket. ;-)
But I don't need a profilometer to know it is considerably worse than
the tables on display. It is flat, and even, but the grind is heavy.

The method of grinding used is irrelevant to the surface roughness,
only to the pattern it leaves behind - all other factors being the
same. The stone used to cut the table appears to have been rough, as
there are alternating deeper and shallower grooves repeated throughout
the cyclic mill pattern.

I didn't use the reflected light pattern to determine the roughness.
I used real-world things like my fingernail and a block of wood.

But I can put my hands on a laser photomicrometer that can discern
point source difference in height of around .00005". I doubt they'll
let me take it home, however.

However, the ultimate appearance of the saw table is the first thing
that a woodworker sees, and a rough surface - to the hand or to the
eye - is a definite turn-off to a prospective buyer of a new saw.

RMS measurement is the statistical diference between the peaks and
valleys of a surface. each method provides a different pattern and
different light reflection many times with the sam RMS measurement.
I've compared some blanchard or engine surfaces that were three times
worse that the rotary/recip and would have sworn they were the same.

Root Mean Square. A weighted algorithmic procedure for determining
the overall average value of things like AC waveforms, mechanical
aberrations, etc. It comes up a lot in the electronic work I do...

Again, appearance wasn't the criteria. Limitation of the medium...
I can't post a photo enabling you to feel physical roughness.

wood over the surface with slight pressure results in wood dust on the
table. The table has been ground so far that the miter bar is only
.001" below the surface of the table at points.

Outstanding. That is exactly what the factory trys to achieve. As
close to flush as possible without being above the table.

Not really a problem, just less clearance than I am used to. But a
tolerance of .001" is pretty tight, considering that, as you state,
the table may move over time. Cast iron is funny like that.

The edges of the
miter slot are sharp, and will have to be chamfered slightly, for fear
of physical injury. I checked the table with a machinist straightedge
and feeler gauges. The main table is flat within .003", averaging
slightly better.

Once again, outstanding. Well within the specifications in fact in
the top statistical quadrant depending on the direction measured.

Very Flat, yes - I am happy that the table is so true.
Sharp edges, a negative factor. Nothing that can't be fixed with a
few swipes of a file, but still they are sharp and a potential safety
factor. And I felt the need to relate this fact.

The side extensions are generally flat within .003",
but there is one dip that is out .006" They are milled the with the
same finish the table. I have not mounted the extensions, so I cannot
comment on the overall flatness and alignment of the top assembled.

Probably will be very good and well within specifications. However,
you seem to be very particular and if you want perfection you can
always use shim stock to achieve that.

Yes, I have no complaints about the flatness of the table, especially
considering what I have been using. And I have no doubt that the
extension table may need to be shimmed. I have plenty of brass and
Teflon stock of varying thicknesses.

Getting two (or three) individually milled cast iron slabs to line up
is an exercise in patience and finesse.

There is a curious bracket inside the saw, which from all appearances
will prevent a blade from being mounted. It's not mentioned in the
instructions, and since I didn't get a fricken parts manual, I don't
know what it is yet, or whether I am supposed to remove it.

Black U formed channel? Saw dust diverter. keeps the sawdust going
down instead of back up through the insert. However, from your
picture it may be installed improperly. Are the spacers on the inside
of the channel? I can't really tell, but if they are it is wrong.
Should be on the outside of the channel spaced off the front trunion.

That is what the display model looked like, a dust diverter.
And I even commented that, "Hey that's a good idea, a dust diverter."
But the one mounted on mine interferes with the blade - it's off
center with the arbor.

There are two hex head bolts holding it to the mech. There are
spacers between the bolt heads and the 'U-Channel", which is directly
in contact with the trunnion. But since it's not in the manual - or
in the non-existent parts breakout, I don't know for sure...

See comment above. If you are pitching that Leitz blade, I'll take
it.

Nah, I'll give it a shot. As I said, I don't expect perfection from
an OEM blade, and I can use it on lesser projects to protect my nice
WWII. I do, however have a few Dewalt blades you are welcome to.

I checked for interference with the motor and such, plugged it in, and
fired it up. It thumped like a cold nylon bias-ply tire for a several
seconds but smoothed out after a few more. The belts had been sitting
in the same spot for over a year according to the serial number - no
wait, THERE ISN'T ONE - according to the date on the refurb sticker.

Will stay smooth with regular use, will take a set if it sits. will
smooth back out with use.

Sure, I figured, and stated, as much. If I sat for a year in one
position, I would have trouble running smoothly as well. ;-)

I've only run the saw for 20 seconds or so - long enough to check out
the GPE switch for function and power fail shutoff and to insure that
the motor ran properly.

some Dewalt and Bosch tools, but Delta has been the mainstay.

Very good to see. Now for a larger shop............

Boy, you've got that part right! I have to clean up every time I do
anything, and it is an impediment to completing any project. Tripping
over things while surrounded by sharp, hard metal power tools is not
my way of working. Way too many doors as well.

Granted, I've been a bit harsh,

A touch.

Perhaps - but no malice implied. Just an objective overview.

I'll do a thorough test & alignment after I decide what to do with it.
The table, although certainly flat enough for woodworking, is in
serious need of some polishing. And it looks like I'll have to tear
down the mech and replace that blasted bent shaft, 'cause there's no
way I'm loading this thing back up to swap for another unit

I'll be glad to walk you through that shaft replacement if you need
help.

You might point out any caveats, but I'm pretty handy mechanically.

allowing another trained monkey

See comment above. Repeat here.

Sarcasm . Get used to it - Usenet is total anarchy.
Emily Post doesn't visit here to teach good manners...

Besides, you haven't seen some of the mechanics I've worked with over
the years - where 'trained monkey' was an insult to the monkey.
A bit colorful, but don't take it so personally. ;-)

There is no better way to understand the inner workings of a machine
than to tear it down and put it back together again. Then, when or if
something goes wrong, or you hear a funny sound, you know exactly what
it is and what to do about it - saving yourself time, energy, and
quite possibly, serious bodily injury.

If you are going to take it apart, I certainly hope you have the
proper instruments to set the blade alignment and distance from the
slot after the fact. It may seem right until you tilt the blade to
45. The dimensional zone is fairly small.

I understand. I know designers go to great lengths to come up with
designs that will maintain proper symmetry while tilting the blade AND
supporting 300 pounds of weight - over and over and over...

I assume Starrett micrometers, dial indicators, depth gauges and
various other machinist's measuring tools will suffice?

If not, tell me now and make the decision of accepting the dealer's
offer of another saw much easier. God only know how I'll get that
thing back onto the truck, however.

And does the original manual or parts list contain an overview of saw
alignment? If not, where do I get a copy that does? That is a
definite requirement of ownership for any machinery.

Thanks,


Greg G.

Mike Marlow said:

Argh! Thanks for the experience Greg. What a shame to have to put up with
some of the workmanship issues that came packaged in that box. I don't care
what a saw sells for new, or that it's reconditioned - $1200 is still $1200,
no matter how you cut it. At that price I would expect quality. With that
name, I would expect quality. You're too forgiving with your willingness to
take on some of the issues yourself - bent shaft, sharp edges, etc. Or
maybe I'm not forgiving enough, but I would have expected better quality
than that for the money.

Well, some of my criticisms are pretty well know - like the blade
guard and splitter. Otherwise an aftermarket industry would not exist
to address these weak points. They DO have to built a product to hit
a certain price point, but I still feel that guards are an overlooked
and underdeveloped item - in ALL brands.

The only real complaints I had were the bent blade angle shaft, which
is not the vendor or Delta's fault - but the shipper's, the somewhat
rough table surface - even though it is very flat, and that beat-up
metal rod. Apparently, the internal dust deflector was improperly
installed as well - no biggy, but a bit disconcerting.

I'm sure it's far better than your "cheap old contractor saw", and it will
probably sit well in the middle of the floor when it's all done, but this
kind of stuff makes it a slower path to that satisfaction of going out there
just before bed time and turning on the lights just one more time for a
quick look.

Yea, it was disappointing to see that bent worm screw shaft.
Kinda precludes setting it up and using it until it is dealt with.

But I can't quite see myself "tucking it in" before bedtime. ;-)
Then again, I've not got it set up and actually USED the darned thing.
It might just change my perspective. ;-)
It IS kinda pretty just sitting there and all...

All the same - congratulations on making one of those long awaited
purchases.

Thanks,
(even though my projects will be built with twobafours for a while)

Woodlessly Yours,

Greg G.

Battleax said:

The bent shaft is appalling, but was probably an accident. The bashed
mounting rods I see in one photo are outrageous! I can't imagine how this
was let out of the shop.

Shipper's can be like that sometimes. There was nothing protecting the
shaft, it was bound to happen - after all, it's the one I bought. :-\
A block of foam probably would have prohibited this damage.

But the rod makes me a little nervous - makes one wonder what else is
wrong. That's why I'm headed out there right now to check it out more
thoroughly.

Thanks,


Greg G.

Wilson said:

I think a valuable lesson here is to check out machines before taking them
home. I see new Uni's at the local WW shop for about $1400, so the savings
don't seem all that great on th erefurb??

Left tilt, 52" Bies fence, outboard table, two iron extension wings?
For $1400? There isn't that much competition down here...

As for checking it out, I asked to, but they were in a hurry to go.
They quit at 5:00pm and it was 4:00pm. Complained about having to
unstack units with a fork lift, yadda, yadda...

Actually, the lesson (for me) is to ignore their whining and do it
anyway.

I bought my big planer from an outfit in Charlotte, NC which has their
Taiwan stuff made to order, with personal involvement of the Leneave family.

I wanted to buy an American product. Even if only parts of it are.

Thanks,

Greg G.

BobS said:

Greg,

I'm assuming your quoting Canadian dollars which comes to about 1,000USD
which is certainly a good deal when you consider used Uni's fetch an easy
$800+ in Central NY - if you can find one.

Don't know where on earth you would get the idea that I am in Canada.
I'm WAYYY South of there...
Looked for 2 years for a gnused one - couldn't find one.
This was the only deal in town that didn't involve long distance
shipping.

To bad about the slight damage on the shaft but I
certainly would approach the dealer with "I'll fix the problem but whatcha
gonna do fer me?".

'Slight damage' doesn't cover the blade angle shaft. It's bent. The
rim of the hand wheel wobbles almost an inch when rotated.

Good post,

Thanks,

Greg G.

LRod said:

On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 04:03:53 -0500, Greg wrote:

What appears to be a magnetic switch, but they just HAVE to call it
a GPE switch - or is it a LVC? Darned acronyms.

Gary Parks Enterprises. He was the OEM supplier for a while for Delta.
He also makes the Furnas type, Off-On switches such as on the bandsaw
and jointer (DJ20).

Well, that is interesting. It tried to figure out what the heck GPE
stood for, but there was no way I could get magnetic, or shutoff, or
power fail, or relay out of GPE.

He had some seconds for sale on ebay a couple of months ago and I
bought one identical to the one on my Uni. I'm not sure of all the
lingo regarding switches, but he needed to know the FLA of my motor
(that I was buying the switch for) to put the correct overload relay
in. Does that make it magnetic? If so, then it is.

I believe it is, it's a fancy name for a latching relay in a box. Some
of the better units sense current draw and shut off in case of
overload. I've not dissected this one to determine it's features.

We had a couple of very nice email exchanges. You might check ebay to
see if he still has the Furnas type switches--they're perfect for
router tables or to replace any cheesy switches on other cheap gear.

I have a really cheesy, failed Chinese switch on a Delta Drill Press.
I'll check it out.

You will like the switch on the Uni. Just as you suggest, it is easy
to hit with your knee, in fact that is how I always turn it off.
Should be a good practice for the eventuality that might require an
automatic response on my part.

Cutting large sheet goods often demands alternate means of shutoff.
I built a foot pedal for my other saw, but decided it was not such a
good idea and removed it - even though there was an alternate shutoff
as well - for blade changes and end of day power down. Hip shutdown
should work fine, I'm not certain my knee would reach it.

Thanks,

Greg G.

Frank Boettcher said:

I rub away the cosmolene to reveal the table surface. The surface
finish on the table is rough - so rough you can file your fingernails
down on the grooves.

Did you put a profilometer on it? The grind is a rotary wheel,
reciprcating table grind with a wheel large enough to cover the whole
table. It leaves a different profile than a blanchard grind (rotary
wheel, rotary table) or an engine grind (horizontal shaft wheel over a
linear feed table). Light reflection and pattern are different. I
would be willing to bet that would measure as good as whatever you are
comparing it to and well within the specifications.

After the summary on grinding methods, I though I would present a more
practical demonstration of the surface grind. Since a saw table
performs one primary purpose - to hold the wood level to the blade, at
whatever angle is set, and to allow one to slide the wood along it's
length to complete the saw cut - what better way to demonstrate the
relative smoothness of the finish than the sound of wood being slid
across it's surface. Besides, it's something I can present within the
boundaries of the Internet to defend my contention.

I scrubbed one table clean with WD-40 and a gray Scotch-Brite pad till
my arm went numb. I waxed it with Johnson's Paste Wax, left it to sit
for 10 minutes, and buffed it off. Then I took one piece of oak and
rubbed it along the tables of three different machines. The amount of
effort required was directly proportional to the intensity of the
sound.

The first is the infeed bed of a 2 year old 1HP Delta 6" Jointer.

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Media/JointerSnd1.wav

The second is the bed of my Jet Mini-Lathe.
(Yes, I know, it's not a sliding surface for wood, but it IS milled
cast iron.)

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Media/LatheSnd1.wav

The last is the table of the Unisaw.

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Media/UnisawSnd1.wav

Same settings, same recorder, same volume level.
No alterations were performed on the resulting recordings.

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Media/SetupSnd1.wav

What is your conclusion concerning the roughness of the table?

I'm really not trying to pick a fight, just point out what I consider
to be a genuine concern.

Thanks,

Greg G.

Hey Greg... no matter what your opinion is or what your practical,
personal experience is, posting your opinion or experiences here will
certainly **** someone off. Absolutely no doubt.

I thought your essay was well thought out, much nicer than I would have
written, and kudos to you for not mentioning the distributor/reseller
that sold you the sub par saw without giving them a chance to make it
right.

I don't believe I would have your patience. I am one of those
overbearing jerks that wants my major purchases to be at least in the
90% range of acceptability. Regardless of your words, I am sensing
some real disappointment in the product.

I hope that (especially for someone as nice as yourself) that you are
treated fairly by the sellers and manufacturers.

Robert

said:

Hey Greg... no matter what your opinion is or what your practical,
personal experience is, posting your opinion or experiences here will
certainly **** someone off. Absolutely no doubt.

I've developed pretty thick skin in my old age. I'm not worried about
****ing anyone off anymore - I just don't give a d*#ned.
Dress it up however you like, but Facts are Facts.

The only thing I worry about is disseminating erred information.

I thought your essay was well thought out, much nicer than I would have
written, and kudos to you for not mentioning the distributor/reseller
that sold you the sub par saw without giving them a chance to make it
right.

Thank you.
Glad to know I haven't ****ed off the entire woodworking community.
For although I know it is inevitable that some may take offense, many
will not - and these will be my peers. I'll just have the others
hunted down... ;-)

I don't believe I would have your patience. I am one of those
overbearing jerks that wants my major purchases to be at least in the
90% range of acceptability. Regardless of your words, I am sensing
some real disappointment in the product.

I've done service all my life. I know people have a bad day now and
then. They are due the benefit of doubt - as I would want for myself.
Only machines can perform a task unendingly and not FUBAR something
occasionally. And even machines occasionally break down.

But if I detect malice, or insincerity - watch out, I'm an animal. ;-)

I hope that (especially for someone as nice as yourself) that you are
treated fairly by the sellers and manufacturers.

I have high hopes... And thanks again.

Greg G.

wrote:

I thought your essay was well thought out, much nicer than I would have
written, and kudos to you for not mentioning the distributor/reseller
that sold you the sub par saw without giving them a chance to make it
right.

Same here. I've been following this and Greg's writings are informative
and seem very fair.


I don't believe I would have your patience. I am one of those
overbearing jerks that wants my major purchases to be at least in the
90% range of acceptability. Regardless of your words, I am sensing
some real disappointment in the product.

I went through the same feelings when both my DJ-20 and X5 bands saw
were missing major show-stopping parts from factory sealed packages.
Neither of my tools were refurbs, either.


To Greg:

In my case, after the tool is finally made right, and eventually it
will, this will fade and you will most likely have a quality tool for a
long time. Hang in there, but don't hesitate to keep pushing until
you're happy. In both of my cases, I started out nice, but ended up
having to really push Delta to make me square. Things did NOT move
quickly until I became a pain in the side.

Good luck,
Barry

On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 23:14:44 -0500, Greg wrote:

in. Does that make it magnetic? If so, then it is.

I believe it is, it's a fancy name for a latching relay in a box. Some
of the better units sense current draw and shut off in case of
overload. I've not dissected this one to determine it's features.

I went back to the original auction where I bought it and it plainly
says magnetic control. That answers that.

We had a couple of very nice email exchanges. You might check ebay to
see if he still has the Furnas type switches--they're perfect for
router tables or to replace any cheesy switches on other cheap gear.

I have a really cheesy, failed Chinese switch on a Delta Drill Press.
I'll check it out.

Look at my reply to the "table saw switches" elsewhere for a URL to
his current auction (for the mag switch above). You can post a query
through that to him directly about the drill press switch.

--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 23:14:44 -0500, Greg wrote:


We had a couple of very nice email exchanges. You might check ebay to
see if he still has the Furnas type switches--they're perfect for
router tables or to replace any cheesy switches on other cheap gear.

I have a really cheesy, failed Chinese switch on a Delta Drill Press.
I'll check it out.

Eureka! I found the auction # (expired) for the one I bought:
7539744293 Again, from it you can post a query if he has any more.

--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 21:41:12 -0500, Greg wrote:
Greg, your original post was heavily slanted to the negative and I
offered the truth in areas where your assumptions were wrong (cheap
chinese blade, table ground so far that the clearance was only .001",
UL/CSA which is a good thing, being the reason for design issues, true
measurement of the grind, etc.).

Your saw, with the exception of the WEG motor was manufactured in the
USA. The machining, sheet metal fabrication, welding, painting,
assembly were all done in America.

I am pro Delta, but I make it a point to not slam any competitor of
Delta. I have many friends in the industry, who are knowledgeable,
good people.

I will only post what I know to be the truth when a question is asked
or I see something posted that is not true.

It is usenet and it is unmoderated and total anarchy. You asked in an
earlier post why the company might not participate in this venue.
That is exactly the reason. While most on this group are serious
woodworkers ready to offer advice and opinions, it has its share of
trolls and sockpuppets. Companies have other venues to answer
questions and offer help without getting into that quagmire.

In your case, I might suggest that you purchase another brand if you
are so dissatisfied. And possibly move from the state of Georgia
since one of your posts cast dispersion on the people who live there.

However, If you wish to dissassemble and repair this saw or replace it
with another Delta Unisaw and you have issues with it, my offer to
help still stands.

Frank


Frank Boettcher said:

Since you took the time to do this I'll take the time to comment.

Same here.
Since I am a consumer, I don't have to pussyfoot around the facts.
I don't take advertising dollars or have stock in the company.
I am not insulting you personally or the heritage of Delta.

You seem like a pleasant, knowledgeable fellow, and as I commented on
in an earlier post, your anecdotes of life at the factory are music to
my ears. But you have to admit that you DO come off as just a wee bit
Pro-Delta.

But there are a lot of products in the market, and competition is what
drives innovation and improvement. Instead of mistaking observations
as personal attacks, you might consider improving the factors that
precipitated the complain and fixing them.

This not a Delta forum, and it is not moderated, so no one here has to
be concerned with offending ANY manufacturer with his opinion.
Heck, we talk about and bash Jet's, Powermatics, Harbor Freight, and
everything else under the sun.

Me thinks you may have some difficulty seeing the forest for the
trees, however. I understand you love Delta, you have spent a portion
of your life dedicated to producing the best products you could,
contingent on marketplace forces and board of director's whims.

None of my comments should be taken personally by you or anyone else.
With that said...

On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 04:03:53 -0500, Greg wrote:

Ahhh, the Delta Unisaw - there it is. The table saw many a young man
has dreamed of for well over 25 years. Biesemeyer, the fence that
everyone likes, is pretty long in the tooth, but solid and very heavy.
....
Saw proudly displays a sticker - Made in USA. But is it?

Yes,

Yes - from numerous foreign components.

To me, final assembly does not fully equate to "Made in USA."
I understand why components are imported, it's just a shame. I grew
up in a time when everything I bought was completely Made in the USA.
Switches, motors, hardware - EVERYTHING!

It's getting to the point that MFGs are considering putting an
imported Chinese item into a box - Made in USA.

And I swear, if I open up another box of deformed, crappy Chinese
nails, I'm gonna scream!

But I knew this going in...

Press on...
Can't get into the motor housing, they still have the screw installed.

Required by UL. Your choice to leave it on. Cover will stay on
without it with the spring clips.

Remember this is the store floor model I am discussing here, not my
saw. Mine didn't have a screw on it at all - they forgot to replace
it, or it fell out in shipping. And it's not in the bag, either. The
cover was just laying next to the saw when uncrated. The clips failed
to retain the motor cover during shipping.

Just sell the damned saw and let the user save a few bucks
and buy a real blade of his choice.

If you are talking about the blade you have pictured in your picture
of accessories, it is very high quality blade manufactured by Leitz
in Germany. you may have also gotten a stamped steel blade mounted on
the unit, and if so probably Vermont American. UL requires the
inclusion of a blade. Many of the competitors are NOT UL LISTED AND
THEREFORE DO NOT HAVE TO SUPPLY A BLADE AND MOST DON'T.

It's a 35-617 blade. If you can tell that from that crummy picture,
your eyes are better than mine - But I'll take your word for it, since
they didn't bother to print a country of origin on it.

I still prefer the WWII, however. Most of the other blades I have
gotten from Delta have been serviceable, but not great. They hold an
edge well, but splinter more than I care for. I don't expect
perfection from an OEM blade. I haven't actually USED the blade,
because the saw is not functional, so I didn't comment on the quality
of cut. But the printing sure looks Chinese to me - where did they
print the logo on the blade?

The extension table is nothing special, and has rough lumber
showing on the end. It's not flush to the saw table wing, but it's
close - could be assembly error and abuse. Oh, and the blade guard,
what a joke. It allegedly props up for blade changes, but don't count
on it staying there. It's no wonder so many of these things end up
sitting in a dusty shop corner.

Once again, UL issue. UL requires that the blade guard fall of its
own accord when the insert is back in and the saw is operational. If
you don't take the extra pains to be UL listed you don't have to
follow this rule. And all standard guards of of a similar design
except that the non UL listed units don't have to follow the auto drop
rule.

But nevertheless, it's a flaky, cost-cutting design. One display
model had a longer retaining tab, and it did work better, but this one
has had the tab reduced in height. It doesn't stay up if you breath
on it hard.

If this is the best manufacturers can come up with, then someone needs
to approach UL about revising it's requirements, because this design
leads to it being removed from the saw - not what they had in mind.

Redmon and sons perchance. If so very good dealer.

I'm not revealing the dealer until I have fully evaluated the
transaction. I'm not out to slam anyone needlessly.

Carefully rolled it into the garage - the tip sensor says
everything is OK - no red. Everything should be cool.

tilt watch is to indicate an uncontrolled tip over on someone's
shipping dock or warehouse. There was an earlier post where someone
was advised not to lay the saw over to change a sub base. It is not a
problem. you just cant let it free fall tilt. No saw could stand
that.

I fully understand that - and also understand the necessity of such a
device - as I commented to in one of your earlier posts.

So I inspect the reminder of the saw - what's this? Apparently the
saw has been damaged previously, and the front trunnion has been
replaced.

How can you tell?

I've been a mechanic and electronics tech for 40 years, you can tell
these things. Bolt heads, paint chips, damaged ends on shafts, etc.

It appears that a large monkey with a sledge hammer has
been recruited to repair this saw.

Arrogant, insulting and and innappropriate comment.

Perhaps, but I'm not personally attacking you. If a shaft is peened
over, and looks like it has been driven in with a hammer, then it
probably was.

But maybe you are right, perhaps I should instead insult Delta for not
providing this workman with the proper tools to do the job. Is it
standard procedure to hammer a shaft into place, thereby deforming the
end of the shaft? Not in any shop I've been at.

This brings to mind a guy laying on his back in a dark warehouse, with
a hammer in one hand, and cursing the weight of the unit under his
breath as he attempts to meet a production quota.

Is that better?

A quick scan of the net shows no outstanding motor problems, and WEG
motors are used in a number of applications - including huge 100 HP
industrial models. I guess it'll be OK.

I believe the largest motor manufacturer in the world although I'm not
sure that is relevant.

You can sell a lot of crap to a lot of people in this country, but
that doesn't mean it's quality. The motor does appear to be well made
and very heavy.

Then I notice the serial number has been cut from the unit.
How fracken tacky - makes it look like stolen merchandise. I don't
mind the refurb sticker, but in this age of computer tracking,
wouldn't it suffice to simply tag it in the computer as a refurb and
affix a label designating it as such? Is it necessary to totally
orphan the unit by slicing away it's birth certificate?
They don't do this with refurb electronic equipment.

Many dealers are small and not set up to access computer data base.
They would honor a warranty based on the original serial number. The
warranty for reconditioned equipment different. It is a simple system
to make sure that the appropriate warranty applies.

I understand the logistics of the situation, but I still feel that
removing the number is a bad idea. For instance, I will have
difficulty selling this saw if I ever decide to. Insurance companies
baulk at insuring an item that has no serial number, or worse, if it
is defaced. There are other reasons as well, but I think you get the
idea.

As for warrantee service, I have no intention of ever letting anyone
else work on my equipment. I repair my own cars, re-roof and re-side
my own house, write my own software, repair my own TVs and VCRs,
repair my own plumbing, electrical, HVAC, etc.

Of course, Delta has no way of knowing this beforehand...

finish on the table is rough - so rough you can file your fingernails
down on the grooves.

Did you put a profilometer on it? The grind is a rotary wheel,
reciprcating table grind with a wheel large enough to cover the whole
table. It leaves a different profile than a blanchard grind (rotary
wheel, rotary table) or an engine grind (horizontal shaft wheel over a
linear feed table). Light reflection and pattern are different. I
would be willing to bet that would measure as good as whatever you are
comparing it to and well within the specifications.

Don't happen to have on of those in my back pocket. ;-)
But I don't need a profilometer to know it is considerably worse than
the tables on display. It is flat, and even, but the grind is heavy.

The method of grinding used is irrelevant to the surface roughness,
only to the pattern it leaves behind - all other factors being the
same. The stone used to cut the table appears to have been rough, as
there are alternating deeper and shallower grooves repeated throughout
the cyclic mill pattern.

I didn't use the reflected light pattern to determine the roughness.
I used real-world things like my fingernail and a block of wood.

But I can put my hands on a laser photomicrometer that can discern
point source difference in height of around .00005". I doubt they'll
let me take it home, however.

However, the ultimate appearance of the saw table is the first thing
that a woodworker sees, and a rough surface - to the hand or to the
eye - is a definite turn-off to a prospective buyer of a new saw.

RMS measurement is the statistical diference between the peaks and
valleys of a surface. each method provides a different pattern and
different light reflection many times with the sam RMS measurement.
I've compared some blanchard or engine surfaces that were three times
worse that the rotary/recip and would have sworn they were the same.

Root Mean Square. A weighted algorithmic procedure for determining
the overall average value of things like AC waveforms, mechanical
aberrations, etc. It comes up a lot in the electronic work I do...

Again, appearance wasn't the criteria. Limitation of the medium...
I can't post a photo enabling you to feel physical roughness.

wood over the surface with slight pressure results in wood dust on the
table. The table has been ground so far that the miter bar is only
.001" below the surface of the table at points.

Outstanding. That is exactly what the factory trys to achieve. As
close to flush as possible without being above the table.

Not really a problem, just less clearance than I am used to. But a
tolerance of .001" is pretty tight, considering that, as you state,
the table may move over time. Cast iron is funny like that.

The edges of the
miter slot are sharp, and will have to be chamfered slightly, for fear
of physical injury. I checked the table with a machinist straightedge
and feeler gauges. The main table is flat within .003", averaging
slightly better.

Once again, outstanding. Well within the specifications in fact in
the top statistical quadrant depending on the direction measured.

Very Flat, yes - I am happy that the table is so true.
Sharp edges, a negative factor. Nothing that can't be fixed with a
few swipes of a file, but still they are sharp and a potential safety
factor. And I felt the need to relate this fact.

The side extensions are generally flat within .003",
but there is one dip that is out .006" They are milled the with the
same finish the table. I have not mounted the extensions, so I cannot
comment on the overall flatness and alignment of the top assembled.

Probably will be very good and well within specifications. However,
you seem to be very particular and if you want perfection you can
always use shim stock to achieve that.

Yes, I have no complaints about the flatness of the table, especially
considering what I have been using. And I have no doubt that the
extension table may need to be shimmed. I have plenty of brass and
Teflon stock of varying thicknesses.

Getting two (or three) individually milled cast iron slabs to line up
is an exercise in patience and finesse.

There is a curious bracket inside the saw, which from all appearances
will prevent a blade from being mounted. It's not mentioned in the
instructions, and since I didn't get a fricken parts manual, I don't
know what it is yet, or whether I am supposed to remove it.

Black U formed channel? Saw dust diverter. keeps the sawdust going
down instead of back up through the insert. However, from your
picture it may be installed improperly. Are the spacers on the inside
of the channel? I can't really tell, but if they are it is wrong.
Should be on the outside of the channel spaced off the front trunion.

That is what the display model looked like, a dust diverter.
And I even commented that, "Hey that's a good idea, a dust diverter."
But the one mounted on mine interferes with the blade - it's off
center with the arbor.

There are two hex head bolts holding it to the mech. There are
spacers between the bolt heads and the 'U-Channel", which is directly
in contact with the trunnion. But since it's not in the manual - or
in the non-existent parts breakout, I don't know for sure...

See comment above. If you are pitching that Leitz blade, I'll take
it.

Nah, I'll give it a shot. As I said, I don't expect perfection from
an OEM blade, and I can use it on lesser projects to protect my nice
WWII. I do, however have a few Dewalt blades you are welcome to.

I checked for interference with the motor and such, plugged it in, and
fired it up. It thumped like a cold nylon bias-ply tire for a several
seconds but smoothed out after a few more. The belts had been sitting
in the same spot for over a year according to the serial number - no
wait, THERE ISN'T ONE - according to the date on the refurb sticker.

Will stay smooth with regular use, will take a set if it sits. will
smooth back out with use.

Sure, I figured, and stated, as much. If I sat for a year in one
position, I would have trouble running smoothly as well. ;-)

I've only run the saw for 20 seconds or so - long enough to check out
the GPE switch for function and power fail shutoff and to insure that
the motor ran properly.

some Dewalt and Bosch tools, but Delta has been the mainstay.

Very good to see. Now for a larger shop............

Boy, you've got that part right! I have to clean up every time I do
anything, and it is an impediment to completing any project. Tripping
over things while surrounded by sharp, hard metal power tools is not
my way of working. Way too many doors as well.

Granted, I've been a bit harsh,

A touch.

Perhaps - but no malice implied. Just an objective overview.

I'll do a thorough test & alignment after I decide what to do with it.
The table, although certainly flat enough for woodworking, is in
serious need of some polishing. And it looks like I'll have to tear
down the mech and replace that blasted bent shaft, 'cause there's no
way I'm loading this thing back up to swap for another unit

I'll be glad to walk you through that shaft replacement if you need
help.

You might point out any caveats, but I'm pretty handy mechanically.

allowing another trained monkey

See comment above. Repeat here.

Sarcasm . Get used to it - Usenet is total anarchy.
Emily Post doesn't visit here to teach good manners...

Besides, you haven't seen some of the mechanics I've worked with over
the years - where 'trained monkey' was an insult to the monkey.
A bit colorful, but don't take it so personally. ;-)

There is no better way to understand the inner workings of a machine
than to tear it down and put it back together again. Then, when or if
something goes wrong, or you hear a funny sound, you know exactly what
it is and what to do about it - saving yourself time, energy, and
quite possibly, serious bodily injury.

If you are going to take it apart, I certainly hope you have the
proper instruments to set the blade alignment and distance from the
slot after the fact. It may seem right until you tilt the blade to
45. The dimensional zone is fairly small.

I understand. I know designers go to great lengths to come up with
designs that will maintain proper symmetry while tilting the blade AND
supporting 300 pounds of weight - over and over and over...

I assume Starrett micrometers, dial indicators, depth gauges and
various other machinist's measuring tools will suffice?

If not, tell me now and make the decision of accepting the dealer's
offer of another saw much easier. God only know how I'll get that
thing back onto the truck, however.

And does the original manual or parts list contain an overview of saw
alignment? If not, where do I get a copy that does? That is a
definite requirement of ownership for any machinery.

Thanks,


Greg G.

On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 07:44:01 -0600, Frank Boettcher
wrote:

[snip]

In your case, I might suggest that you purchase another brand if you
are so dissatisfied.

Whenever I've gotten this recommedation, I always take them up on it.

BTW, 14 months ago I posted the following:

I used to own a 15-year old Craftsman contractor's saw. With a little
adjustment, the blade was parallel with the miter gauge slots, the two
open rib cast iron extension wings were perfectly flush with the table
top and the arbor run-out, measured at the base of the blade gullets
was 0.003". The fence sucked but I learned to compensate and live
with it. With only one hp, rip cuts on hardwood were---excuse the
pun---hard, but doable. Being completely open, dust was a big
annoyance. Nevertheless, using the saw I built a 1200 sq ft addition
to my house, a few cabinets and all the other little things a home
handyman does.

Recently I've become more interested in doing some simple furniture
building and some kitchen and bath remodeling so I figured I could
factor the cost of new tooling into the *alleged* cost saving of DIY.

Thus I succumbed to the siren call of the CABINET SAW and decided to
buy one. But which one? Using comments in this forum, product
reviews, etc. etc, I decided for various reasons to buy American and
get me one of them Unisars.

In other threads I railed against what I perceived as lousy quality
control and the fact (in my mind) that manufactures didn't sell saws,
they sold saw kits; a bunch of parts that needed to be finished by the
sucker-err---buyer, to complete the construction. I gotta a lot of
flack over that one so without further ado or editorial comment
follows the ongoing story of the Delta Unisaw...

1. Decided to buy locally (glad I did) from Woodcraft during
their March 10% off sale. Went with a 30" Biesemeyer fence and Delta
mobile base. Paid all of $15 extra for home delivery.

2. Week later, saw arrives. Two Woodcraft guys deliver in PU
truck with no lift gate. Call next-door neighbor over and four of us
skid it down a couple of 4x4s without incident. Tilt indicator was
bright red before unloading and big hole in box but no apparent
damage. Sell Craftsman saw to neighbor for hundred bucks.

3. Manage to single-handedly get saw off pallet onto mobile base.
Work stops here during three-week trip.

4. Back home, back to assembly. Options a open all boxes and
do inventory and then lose parts before they are needed; or, wait
until parts are needed to open boxes. Choose second option.

5. Assemble left-hand cast iron extension wing. Doesn't line up.
Make it flush with the table front and rear and it sags 8 thou midway
along the joint line although one inch back from the front, the
extension is proud 4 thou. Left front outside edge of extension
droops 20 thou.

6. Call Wendy at Woodcraft. She says Delta will drop ship
replacement to me. Work stops for a week.

7. UPS man brings new extension wing. This one is worse than the
original! The finish is horrible. On both wings, it appears than
when the grinding wheel was introduced to the iron there was a lot of
chatter. The first couple of inches bear witness to this by being
very rough and showing the wheel marks. If I eat enough Wheaties, I
can turn this thing upside down and use it as a wood rasp. Say to
hell with it and reinstall original extension wing. Determine that
part of the misalignment is an artifact of the main table having a
high spot at the left front edge. Aligning the wing to this spot
creates misalignment along the rest of the interface. Use flat
grinding stone to hone this high spot down and fiddle fart around
until I figure it's good enough.

8. Install front and rear angle supports. Instructions say that
front support that holds rip fence rail must be installed to exact
dimension of 2 27/32" below table top. No way in hell will this
happen without enlarging mounting holes in table top. Start
elongating holes with rat-tail file. Slow going. Decide that since
angle surface is too low, another option would be to add shims between
angle and fence rail. Bolt on fence rail using ¼" flat washers as
shims. Works dandy.

9. Time to mount the laminate extension table. Manual says, and
photos show, mounting of "Z-bracket". No Z-bracket to be found in
boxes. Call Woodcraft. They say they will call Delta and call back.
Next day after not hearing from Woodcraft, I call Delta. Guy says,
"Oh, the Z-bracket isn't used with Beisemeyer fence, the manual is
wrong." While I have him on the phone I mention misalignment of fence
rail. He says, 'Be glad that it's too low, that way you can use shims
for alignment, some of them are too high then you have a real
problem." Lucky me! I also mention extension wing problem. He says
he will send another.

10. Ten days later, UPS man comes with extension wing. The box is
completely shredded and it is obvious that somewhere along the line,
the extension has exited the box and landed on a corner against a hard
object. Besides the bent corner, the finish is as rough as the
others. Unless Delta sends somebody out to retrieve this one, I now
have a heavy-duty surface plate of questionable accuracy.

End quote. Non-editorial mode -off-.

It appears to me that Greg has been fair and balanced.

Greg wrote in
:

The last is the table of the Unisaw.

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Media/UnisawSnd1.wav

OMG... That's a *rasp* not a Unisaw table...

Maybe their blanchard grinder was broken that day and they decided to ship
it without grinding.

"Patrick Conroy" wrote in message
...
Greg wrote in
:

The last is the table of the Unisaw.

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Media/UnisawSnd1.wav

OMG... That's a *rasp* not a Unisaw table...

Wes Stewart said:

In your case, I might suggest that you purchase another brand if you
are so dissatisfied.

Whenever I've gotten this recommedation, I always take them up on it.

I have already done so.

Even though he is not a representative of Delta at this time, I did
take him at his word that they were repaired with quality in mind.

It was, however, refurbished on his watch, according to the September
28, 2004 refurb date. So... there you have it - lip service.

Heck, for all I know, he is a 19 year old troll who isn't really who
he claims to be - this IS Usenet. But I don't believe so.

Don't get me wrong, aside from one emotional off-color comment, I
still think he is OK, and has something to contribute to the group.
To be honest, I had never seen one of his posts due to a hiatus from
the group, and have only recently returned.
(It's fall now, it's just too darned hot-n-humid out there in the
middle of a southern summer. Too many other things to do.)

BTW, 14 months ago I posted the following:
..........snip of agony...
End quote. Non-editorial mode -off-.

It appears to me that Greg has been fair and balanced.

Ugghh.... Please, don't use that PARTICULAR expression... ;-)


Greg G.

Patrick Conroy said:

Greg wrote in
:

The last is the table of the Unisaw.

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Media/UnisawSnd1.wav

OMG... That's a *rasp* not a Unisaw table...

Yea, I didn't expect perfection, but this was a bit much for MY $1300.


Greg G.

AL said:

Maybe their blanchard grinder was broken that day and they decided to ship
it without grinding.

Or installing and tightening all of the hardware properly...

But according the local Delta expert, (and I'm NOT being sarcastic),

/QUOTE ON
"The grind is a rotary wheel, reciprcating table grind with a wheel
large enough to cover the whole table. It leaves a different profile
than a blanchard grind (rotary wheel, rotary table) or an engine
grind (horizontal shaft wheel over a linear feed table). "
/QUOTE OFF

And he is absolutely right. The mill pattern supports his contention.

But apparently the wheel wasn't dressed properly, or someone threw a
handful of metal chips on the table when they ground this one. Maybe
the equipment malfunctioned.

For all I know this thing was built by an angry drunkard who was
serving out his last 2 days of notice. Who the heck knows what
happened - but if it's gonna happen, it'll happen to me. :-\



Greg G.

On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 01:36:36 -0500, Greg wrote:


Missed this one first time around but it deserves comment

Wes Stewart said:

In your case, I might suggest that you purchase another brand if you
are so dissatisfied.

Whenever I've gotten this recommedation, I always take them up on it.

I have already done so.

Even though he is not a representative of Delta at this time, I did
take him at his word that they were repaired with quality in mind.

It was, however, refurbished on his watch, according to the September
28, 2004 refurb date. So... there you have it - lip service.

The last Unisaw was manufactured in the Tupelo factory (Under my watch
so to speak) was in May of 2004. I own the saw. It was signed by
each person who worked on it. Unfortunately it was submerged by
Hurricane Katrina and is slowly being recovered. If you want
verification you can go to yahoo groups, deltawoodworking, pictures,
last unisaw and see for yourself. There are no 19 year old trolls, or
trained monkeys in the picture, only a dedicated group of people who
averaged 30+ years of service.

The last refurb on Unisaws was done in Tupelo (under my watch) in the
same month.

From that point the refurb was transferred to Jackson, TN, not under
my watch. My assmumption was that they were similarly re

From May until the plant was finally closed in March of 2005 the
Tupelo facility was only manufacturing castings for the U.S. made
product.

I could immediately tell that it was not refurbed under my watch
because it was reboxed. We did not do that. We put the saw
completely together, aligned it, tested it under power then strapped
it to an oversize pallet and waited for the distributor to pick it up.
We refused to ship our refurb LTL. The dealer you bought your saw
from will verify this and the level of quality that came from my
refurb operation. He wanted to hired my refurb leadman. His name is
Jerry.

And, following up on one of your comments in an earlier post, I do not
own stock in Delta (would be Black & Decker now) and am not paid by
them in any way shape or form.

I am terribly sorry that your saw was problematic and you feel that
you were not treated fairly by your dealer and by Delta. I hope you
find what you want.

Frank
\

Heck, for all I know, he is a 19 year old

One can only wish

troll who isn't really who
he claims to be - this IS Usenet. But I don't believe so.

Don't get me wrong, aside from one emotional off-color comment,

?????
I
still think he is OK, and has something to contribute to the group.

I'm so relieved.

To be honest, I had never seen one of his posts due to a hiatus from
the group, and have only recently returned.
(It's fall now, it's just too darned hot-n-humid out there in the
middle of a southern summer. Too many other things to do.)

BTW, 14 months ago I posted the following:
.........snip of agony...
End quote. Non-editorial mode -off-.

It appears to me that Greg has been fair and balanced.

Ugghh.... Please, don't use that PARTICULAR expression... ;-)


Greg G.

On Sat, 05 Nov 2005 01:15:48 GMT, Ba r r y
wrote:

On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 16:20:25 -0600, Frank Boettcher
wrote:

The last Unisaw was manufactured in the Tupelo factory (Under my watch
so to speak) was in May of 2004.

So you were there when my DJ-20 and X5 Bandsaw were made? Both were
missing large, heavy, metal parts.

Tell me, how can a radio control car kit manufacturer, like Team Losi
http://www.teamlosi.com/ or Team Associated
http://www.teamassociated.com/, weigh a box and tell if a (2) 3mm
screws are missing from a 10 pound box (hint, they can...), but Delta
can't tell if a box is missing 10 or 25 pound from a 100 pound box?

It seems that every box should weigh very nearly the same. Perhaps
Delta needs to weigh boxes before shipment. G

Unfortunately it was submerged by
Hurricane Katrina and is slowly being recovered.

I wish you luck cleaning up after the hurricane. What a mess...

Barry


Well Barry, the DJ-20 was never made in the Tupelo plant. A very good
machine with a unique design, however, originally manufactured at
Invicta in Brazil and then moved to Taiwan.

As for the X5 band saw a serial number and details about the missing
items, would be handy to determine where and when it was manufactured
and what might have happened.

Frank

Frank Boettcher said:

Missed this one first time around but it deserves comment

O.K. First of all, I have tried to distance myself somewhat from this
thread and move on to better things - but this thread has a life all
it's own. But in an ironic twist of fate, I find that I'm the guy
that is really on _your side_. But here you are, again, giving me a
hard time. If you'll settle down a bit and listen carefully, you will
see that I am not the enemy. Turn up the comprehension knob a little.

If you are spoiling for a fight, let me introduce you to Bay Area Dave
and his 14" Delta Bandsaw - you two can have at it. Otherwise, let's
get this over with and return to woodorking.

And the rest of you, please lay off Frank for a bit about the saw.
I have truly appreciated your support during this depressing period,
but life goes on. I'm over it. C'est la Vie.

I have been an on-and-off participant of rec.woodworking for well over
3 1/2 years - and a lurker longer than that. But each summer, due to
the horrific heat and humidity here, I generally fade away in the
summer. But come fall season, I'm back again. I have never seen a
post by you until I asked my first Unisaw question. I didn't know who
or what you were - as your activity began in March of 2005, while I
was on a roof laying shingles.

A public forum is probably not the best place to clear the air on this
topic, but since it's flapping out there in the wind, I'm going to
proceed. Read this carefully, and try to put aside animosity and
emotion - none of this is an attack on you or the employees of the
plant that you worked at. If anything, it is an attack on Delta
Management and their decision to close the plant and move both the
plant overseas, and the refurbishing operations to Tennessee.

When I originally asked about a refurb Unisaw, you stated that the
saws were as good as ever - that, in your opinion, they were better
saws than the Grizzly 1023SL. You implied that refurbishing was done
in your plant, and that you were the manager of that plant. You
implied that the refurb work done was of a professional caliber. You
have also stated that you worked there until March of 2005.

What could I assume, then, but that the saw had been worked "under
your watch". I responded in this fashion due to your defensive
posture, and vague assertions that I was either too picky or a moron.
You never told me that refurb operations had been moved elsewhere,
even though a picture of the box was clearly posted.

But then you post this:

The last refurb on Unisaws was done in Tupelo (under my watch) in the
same month.

From that point the refurb was transferred to Jackson, TN, not under
my watch. My assmumption was that they were similarly re

From May until the plant was finally closed in March of 2005 the
Tupelo facility was only manufacturing castings for the U.S. made
product.

You became offended because I alleged that "a monkey with a
sledgehammer was apparently recruited to repair this saw". By the
timetable that you now present - and the admissions you now make - you
have no idea whether a trained monkey _actually_ repaired it or not.
You have argued facts you have no first hand knowledge of - and facts
not in evidence. I can appreciate your desire to defend your hard
working ex-employees - that is an admirable thing. But my sarcastic
comments concerning the skill of the repair person are not even
relevant to your crew. You don't know him, and you don't know if he
is qualified for the task or not. Why, then, do you take offense?
You assumed something that was not so - and I took you at your word.

As you have no doubt seen by this point, I made a post detailing the
defects contained IN THIS ONE SAW - if your would like photographs, I
can provide them to you, as I have to Delta.

You cannot argue that this was a permissible number of mistakes, and
why would you? Your plant and your employees didn't repair it. This
is exactly the sort of thing I rant about all too frequently - the
closing and transfer of a USA facility from a competent crew to a
cost-cutting one that isn't - or worse, a total move overseas.

The last Unisaw was manufactured in the Tupelo factory (Under my watch
so to speak) was in May of 2004. I own the saw. It was signed by
each person who worked on it. Unfortunately it was submerged by
Hurricane Katrina and is slowly being recovered. If you want
verification you can go to yahoo groups, deltawoodworking, pictures,

I have and I did. And I am truly sorry about the saw - it is a
substantial loss. I have lost many 'near and dear' things due to fire
and flood, so I'm no stranger to the loss you feel - not only over the
very last American Unisaw, but your plant, your employees, the Delta
tradition, and your way of life.

And then you post these comments in response to my review:

It appears that a large monkey with a sledge hammer has
been recruited to repair this saw.

Arrogant, insulting and and innappropriate comment.

last unisaw and see for yourself. There are no 19 year old trolls, or
trained monkeys in the picture, only a dedicated group of people who
averaged 30+ years of service.

See? You're still at it. Again, I never stated that anyone at the
Tupelo plant was a trained monkey. I claimed that whoever repaired
this saw was akin to a monkey with sledgehammer. Other than the slim
possibility that calling _anyone_ a monkey is in bad taste, you have
no reason to be so obsessed about it. From what I have garnered from
the ex-employees of your plant, they went out of the loop in December,
and were eventually terminated in March - their employment packages
held over their heads like carrots on a stick to keep them working
until doomsday - and eventually being cast to the four winds after a
lifetime of service.

Again, this is the sort of avaricious, short sited business management
that I abhor - and rant about all to often. Just ask the wRECers...

Or look here - a page from my web site that was put up in 2000,
WAAYY before I EVER heard of you:

http://www.thevideodoc.com/popin1.htm

I can even imagine the resentment that the aforementioned corporate
behavior could elicit in an employee, resulting in a half-ass repair
like the one performed on that evil, possessed saw.

I could immediately tell that it was not refurbed under my watch
because it was reboxed. We did not do that. We put the saw
completely together, aligned it, tested it under power then strapped
it to an oversize pallet and waited for the distributor to pick it up.
We refused to ship our refurb LTL. The dealer you bought your saw
from will verify this and the level of quality that came from my
refurb operation. He wanted to hired my refurb leadman. His name is
Jerry.

But you never said this - until now.

And, following up on one of your comments in an earlier post, I do not
own stock in Delta (would be Black & Decker now) and am not paid by
them in any way shape or form.

I never asserted that you did/were.
Again, turn up the comprehension level slightly. ;-)

What I said was:

Since I am a consumer, I don't have to pussyfoot around the facts.
I don't take advertising dollars or have stock in the company.
I am not insulting you personally or the heritage of Delta.

My implications were that, unlike magazines and sock puppet reviewers,
I had no interest in the finances of Delta, and therefore had no
reservations in calling a spade a spade.

I am terribly sorry that your saw was problematic and you feel that
you were not treated fairly by your dealer and by Delta. I hope you
find what you want.

Thank You for the concern.
My problem is with Delta and apparently their new refurb operation.
I never claimed to have a problem with the dealer. They have been,
while not _overly_ accommodating, at least civil, and have picked up
the saw for inspection. I have been credited a refund, although I
really wanted to wait until I was contacted by Delta to get their side
of the story. I haven't heard anything yet, but a guy did call today,
by the name of Keith Hopkins. He said he was playing golf(!?) and
would call back at 4:30pm - but alas, he never did.

And as for what I want?
I dearly wanted an American Made Delta Unisaw that worked properly.
Not one that had been hammered up and left with missing/lose hardware
and improperly installed parts. Not one with built in safety defects.
Not one from a plant that could even produce such an abortion.

That is all I wanted - fair dinkum.

But the condition of the saw I received, and Delta's non-reaction to
it left me with a bitter taste in my mouth as to the quality, support,
and reliability of their products.

But here is some food for thought:
(Are you listening Delta/B&D?)

This experience has been an absolute PITA.
And I am also certain that there are more than a few other people in
this group who wouldn't suffer a similar fate at the hands of that
freaking saw from hell. And Delta should realize that many, many of
it's customers are going to face the same situation should they
purchase and receive a piece of machinery such as this.

I haven't slept right since I drug it home and hauled that heavy ass
$1300 thing into the garage. Can't do woodworking - it doesn't run.
Heck I couldn't even get INTO my garage for 4 days because this busted
up thing was sitting in the middle of the floor - along with my old
saw, that will be leaving soon because I thought I had a NEW saw.
SWMBO asks: "I thought you researched this?" and what can I reply?
I told her that the Delta Factory Guy on the wREC tells me these are
quality saws & a good bargain. Now, I look like a freaking idiot!

The 7yr old Guy inside of me has ranted and ended up in the kill files
of half the wREC because his new toy is broken - so they turn me off.
The Manager Guy wonders about all the time he has spent dorking around
with this affair.
The Q.C. Guy in me is outraged that something of this caliber has been
allowed out of the factory with so many mistakes.
The Worker Guy in me wonders how could anyone not care enough to do a
better job.
And the Patriot Guy in me wonders how his country is going to survive
producing products like this - while closing down factories and
putting lifelong employees out of work.

This has been so aggravating that I have considered selling ALL my
tools and just getting out of woodworking completely. I have looked
for a used saw for years, and I cannot justify the cost of a NEW saw.
I hoped that this would be a "good thing".

Not a good way to keep a customer happy, IMHO.

Heck, for all I know, he is a 19 year old

One can only wish

Same here.

troll who isn't really who
he claims to be - this IS Usenet. But I don't believe so.

See my statement above, where I point out that I've never seen you
post a message in the wREC before.


Don't get me wrong, aside from one emotional off-color comment,

?????

This one:

In your case, I might suggest that you purchase another brand if you
are so dissatisfied. And possibly move from the state of Georgia
since one of your posts cast dispersion on the people who live there.

Personal assaults concerning how and where I live and the inclusion of
other conversations not related to this Q.C. issue have no place in
this discussion with you - and is your basic Usenet ad hominem attack
for relating an experience which I found to be quite disappointing.
No, scratch that - downright shocking.

Stating that I live in a backwards red state with no consumer
protection laws that is now run by Plutocrats certainly doesn't cast
aspersion on the general population of Georgia, just a select and
corrupt clan of a powerful few I call the Dixie Mafia. And it is my
sincere opinion that Newt Gingrich is a borderline psychotic that has
no business involved with the government of this country.

All of this, however, is irrelevant to Delta and their QC issues, and
is only my considered opinion.

I still think he is OK, and has something to contribute to the group.

I'm so relieved.

Sarcasm duly noted...
So, can we get over this and move on?
Or shall I send B.A.D. over here and add you to my KillFile?

Sincerely,

Greg G.

"Greg G." wrote in message

O.K. First of all, I have tried to distance myself somewhat from this
thread and move on to better things - but this thread has a life all
it's own.

Sorry to disappoint you Greg, but you are over 95% of the life of this
thread. The amount of messages you've placed solely dedicated to the problem
you've experienced with this saw exceed by far, the amount of replies anyone
else has made.

You're well entitled to gripe about the difficulties you've encountered, but
there comes a time where you just have to ease up or it's going to eat you
alive. Take my word for it, there's far worse things that could have
happened to you than having difficulties with Delta.

This is not an attack, just an observation. If you want to castigate me for
it, then feel free.

"Greg G." wrote in message

That is all I wanted - fair dinkum.

Second time recently that I've seen you use an Australian term ... did you
ever live there?

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/05

I’m very new to woodworking, started with a Delta Unisaw, very pleased with my decision, have called Delta’s tech support a couple of times with very satisfactory results. During one of the calls I asked if the Unisaw was still made in the US, the answer was that some parts are and some aren’t. The person I was speaking with has worked for Delta for a little less than 20-years, used to work on a line making parts for the Unisaw, but those parts are now made overseas. I didn’t ask what the parts were. From what I was told I presume there is more of a Unisaw than just a motor that is imported. Fwiw, nowhere in any of the Unisaw literature that I have seen does it say “Made in America”. The cardboard box that covered my brand new Unisaw (it was bolted to a pallet) is printed with “Made in America of foreign and domestic parts.”

Upscale said:

This is not an attack, just an observation. If you want to castigate me for
it, then feel free.

No attack - I agree with you. Most of the posts were made the first
few days. It is now gone from here, and I've moved on. I respond to
others because it is polite to answer others - well... sometimes...

But just when I think all is calm, like gum stuck to my shoe, here is
a another one.... ;-)


Greg G.

(a) the diff is closer to $300, was $250 diff a month ago, (b) there is/was a mobile base included, 50-273 for the saw and 50-284 mobile extension base for the extension table, (c) don’t know exactly what model Unisaw I got. Printed on the cardboard cover is “for the 36-830L and 36-831L” and below that in big letters is “36-953”. The accompanying documentation all says 36-953. My saw’s serial number is 05G107xxx. Perhaps someone on the forum knows how to extrapolate the manf date from the serial number?!?, (d) there are NO PACKING AND DELIVER CHARGES. All over that web site is/was text indicating free shipping and delivery of any Unisaw. Don't know if it is still the same. However, as I noted in a previous post, there was something like a $13 booking fee I had to pay. So I guess you could say s&h was $13 TOTAL, (e) there are no shipping problems. You order your Unisaw, sit back, and a week later it shows up at your door. The shipper uses one of those pallet jacks to move it wherever you want it put, (f) I don’t believe WWS is a drop shipper, they have 3 retail store. They certainly aren't a drop shipper for Delta products. When I talked to them they specifically said they have regular delivery trucks running from Delta to one of three distribution points in the US. They told me they would prefer to drop ship the Unisaws because they sell so many of them, but Delta will not drop ship any products.

In business for three decades, Woodworker's Supply provides top quality woodworking tools, machinery, abrasives, adhesives, hardware, accessories and wood specialty products to customers, worldwide, from stores and distribution centers in Casper, Wyoming, Albuquerque, New Mexico, and Graham, North Carolina.

I don't have any particular like or dislike for WWS. It just happens they have/had the best price on a new Unisaw when I was buying, shipping cost considered. But that may change at any time. I did check locally and the same Unisaw was a few hundred bucks more, and state sales tax applies on top of that, and I would have to pay extra for someone to move it. I don’t mind paying a little extra to buy locally, but I won’t play the fool. I can’t see putting someone's kid thru college while trying to justify 'feeding my neighbors'. If they want to eat steak and lobster, the ‘neighbors’ need to consider a more competitive business model.

Ironically, the problems you had with your Unisaw purchase impress me as unjustified. That saw should never have been allowed to be sold, but it was … by the very neighbors you are trying to feed.

Upscale said:

"Greg G." wrote in message

Sorry to disappoint you Greg, but you are over 95% of the life of this
thread. The amount of messages you've placed solely dedicated to the problem
you've experienced with this saw exceed by far, the amount of replies anyone
else has made.

BTW, I counted the messages. My contribution has been about 48% -
many of which were simply short answers to other's posts and comments.

But I hear what you are saying... I know I'm sick of it!


Greg G.

Swingman said:

"Greg G." wrote in message

That is all I wanted - fair dinkum.

Second time recently that I've seen you use an Australian term ... did you
ever live there?

I seriously considered moving there a few (15?!) years ago.
Put a fair amount of study into it. I also know a few people there,
and we talked a lot on ICQ - before it was "acquired" by AOH.

But then I became involved in a pointless, drawn out, law suit with
members of the Dixie Mafia, and never made it. In retrospect, and in
light of the slimy judges and the current political climate here,
perhaps I shoulda gone after all...

I know you spent time there, busting those brumbies - you told me
about it years ago. (Dr. Know) The roar of this group pales in
comparison to most of Usenet, and I felt more comfortable in using my
real name. Ah, for the good old days, before the first 'Longest Day
in September'...

Sorry about the additional posts - I popped in here to check messages
lst night, and found two more from .. well....never mind... I should
have blacklisted the whole da#%ed thread. I was just trying to make a
point to Delta about their current product, and how some poor guy with
a nagging wife and bulging debt might end up feeling. I have a
feeling I'm not the only one that will unbox one of that caliber -
hey, it might save a life. (Not). Too much time on my hands... :-o


Greg G.