On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 21:41:12 -0500, Greg wrote:
Greg, your original post was heavily slanted to the negative and I
offered the truth in areas where your assumptions were wrong (cheap
chinese blade, table ground so far that the clearance was only .001",
UL/CSA which is a good thing, being the reason for design issues, true
measurement of the grind, etc.).

Your saw, with the exception of the WEG motor was manufactured in the
USA. The machining, sheet metal fabrication, welding, painting,
assembly were all done in America.

I am pro Delta, but I make it a point to not slam any competitor of
Delta. I have many friends in the industry, who are knowledgeable,
good people.

I will only post what I know to be the truth when a question is asked
or I see something posted that is not true.

It is usenet and it is unmoderated and total anarchy. You asked in an
earlier post why the company might not participate in this venue.
That is exactly the reason. While most on this group are serious
woodworkers ready to offer advice and opinions, it has its share of
trolls and sockpuppets. Companies have other venues to answer
questions and offer help without getting into that quagmire.

In your case, I might suggest that you purchase another brand if you
are so dissatisfied. And possibly move from the state of Georgia
since one of your posts cast dispersion on the people who live there.

However, If you wish to dissassemble and repair this saw or replace it
with another Delta Unisaw and you have issues with it, my offer to
help still stands.

Frank


Frank Boettcher said:

Since you took the time to do this I'll take the time to comment.

Same here.
Since I am a consumer, I don't have to pussyfoot around the facts.
I don't take advertising dollars or have stock in the company.
I am not insulting you personally or the heritage of Delta.

You seem like a pleasant, knowledgeable fellow, and as I commented on
in an earlier post, your anecdotes of life at the factory are music to
my ears. But you have to admit that you DO come off as just a wee bit
Pro-Delta.

But there are a lot of products in the market, and competition is what
drives innovation and improvement. Instead of mistaking observations
as personal attacks, you might consider improving the factors that
precipitated the complain and fixing them.

This not a Delta forum, and it is not moderated, so no one here has to
be concerned with offending ANY manufacturer with his opinion.
Heck, we talk about and bash Jet's, Powermatics, Harbor Freight, and
everything else under the sun.

Me thinks you may have some difficulty seeing the forest for the
trees, however. I understand you love Delta, you have spent a portion
of your life dedicated to producing the best products you could,
contingent on marketplace forces and board of director's whims.

None of my comments should be taken personally by you or anyone else.
With that said...

On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 04:03:53 -0500, Greg wrote:

Ahhh, the Delta Unisaw - there it is. The table saw many a young man
has dreamed of for well over 25 years. Biesemeyer, the fence that
everyone likes, is pretty long in the tooth, but solid and very heavy.
....
Saw proudly displays a sticker - Made in USA. But is it?

Yes,

Yes - from numerous foreign components.

To me, final assembly does not fully equate to "Made in USA."
I understand why components are imported, it's just a shame. I grew
up in a time when everything I bought was completely Made in the USA.
Switches, motors, hardware - EVERYTHING!

It's getting to the point that MFGs are considering putting an
imported Chinese item into a box - Made in USA.

And I swear, if I open up another box of deformed, crappy Chinese
nails, I'm gonna scream!

But I knew this going in...

Press on...
Can't get into the motor housing, they still have the screw installed.

Required by UL. Your choice to leave it on. Cover will stay on
without it with the spring clips.

Remember this is the store floor model I am discussing here, not my
saw. Mine didn't have a screw on it at all - they forgot to replace
it, or it fell out in shipping. And it's not in the bag, either. The
cover was just laying next to the saw when uncrated. The clips failed
to retain the motor cover during shipping.

Just sell the damned saw and let the user save a few bucks
and buy a real blade of his choice.

If you are talking about the blade you have pictured in your picture
of accessories, it is very high quality blade manufactured by Leitz
in Germany. you may have also gotten a stamped steel blade mounted on
the unit, and if so probably Vermont American. UL requires the
inclusion of a blade. Many of the competitors are NOT UL LISTED AND
THEREFORE DO NOT HAVE TO SUPPLY A BLADE AND MOST DON'T.

It's a 35-617 blade. If you can tell that from that crummy picture,
your eyes are better than mine - But I'll take your word for it, since
they didn't bother to print a country of origin on it.

I still prefer the WWII, however. Most of the other blades I have
gotten from Delta have been serviceable, but not great. They hold an
edge well, but splinter more than I care for. I don't expect
perfection from an OEM blade. I haven't actually USED the blade,
because the saw is not functional, so I didn't comment on the quality
of cut. But the printing sure looks Chinese to me - where did they
print the logo on the blade?

The extension table is nothing special, and has rough lumber
showing on the end. It's not flush to the saw table wing, but it's
close - could be assembly error and abuse. Oh, and the blade guard,
what a joke. It allegedly props up for blade changes, but don't count
on it staying there. It's no wonder so many of these things end up
sitting in a dusty shop corner.

Once again, UL issue. UL requires that the blade guard fall of its
own accord when the insert is back in and the saw is operational. If
you don't take the extra pains to be UL listed you don't have to
follow this rule. And all standard guards of of a similar design
except that the non UL listed units don't have to follow the auto drop
rule.

But nevertheless, it's a flaky, cost-cutting design. One display
model had a longer retaining tab, and it did work better, but this one
has had the tab reduced in height. It doesn't stay up if you breath
on it hard.

If this is the best manufacturers can come up with, then someone needs
to approach UL about revising it's requirements, because this design
leads to it being removed from the saw - not what they had in mind.

Redmon and sons perchance. If so very good dealer.

I'm not revealing the dealer until I have fully evaluated the
transaction. I'm not out to slam anyone needlessly.

Carefully rolled it into the garage - the tip sensor says
everything is OK - no red. Everything should be cool.

tilt watch is to indicate an uncontrolled tip over on someone's
shipping dock or warehouse. There was an earlier post where someone
was advised not to lay the saw over to change a sub base. It is not a
problem. you just cant let it free fall tilt. No saw could stand
that.

I fully understand that - and also understand the necessity of such a
device - as I commented to in one of your earlier posts.

So I inspect the reminder of the saw - what's this? Apparently the
saw has been damaged previously, and the front trunnion has been
replaced.

How can you tell?

I've been a mechanic and electronics tech for 40 years, you can tell
these things. Bolt heads, paint chips, damaged ends on shafts, etc.

It appears that a large monkey with a sledge hammer has
been recruited to repair this saw.

Arrogant, insulting and and innappropriate comment.

Perhaps, but I'm not personally attacking you. If a shaft is peened
over, and looks like it has been driven in with a hammer, then it
probably was.

But maybe you are right, perhaps I should instead insult Delta for not
providing this workman with the proper tools to do the job. Is it
standard procedure to hammer a shaft into place, thereby deforming the
end of the shaft? Not in any shop I've been at.

This brings to mind a guy laying on his back in a dark warehouse, with
a hammer in one hand, and cursing the weight of the unit under his
breath as he attempts to meet a production quota.

Is that better?

A quick scan of the net shows no outstanding motor problems, and WEG
motors are used in a number of applications - including huge 100 HP
industrial models. I guess it'll be OK.

I believe the largest motor manufacturer in the world although I'm not
sure that is relevant.

You can sell a lot of crap to a lot of people in this country, but
that doesn't mean it's quality. The motor does appear to be well made
and very heavy.

Then I notice the serial number has been cut from the unit.
How fracken tacky - makes it look like stolen merchandise. I don't
mind the refurb sticker, but in this age of computer tracking,
wouldn't it suffice to simply tag it in the computer as a refurb and
affix a label designating it as such? Is it necessary to totally
orphan the unit by slicing away it's birth certificate?
They don't do this with refurb electronic equipment.

Many dealers are small and not set up to access computer data base.
They would honor a warranty based on the original serial number. The
warranty for reconditioned equipment different. It is a simple system
to make sure that the appropriate warranty applies.

I understand the logistics of the situation, but I still feel that
removing the number is a bad idea. For instance, I will have
difficulty selling this saw if I ever decide to. Insurance companies
baulk at insuring an item that has no serial number, or worse, if it
is defaced. There are other reasons as well, but I think you get the
idea.

As for warrantee service, I have no intention of ever letting anyone
else work on my equipment. I repair my own cars, re-roof and re-side
my own house, write my own software, repair my own TVs and VCRs,
repair my own plumbing, electrical, HVAC, etc.

Of course, Delta has no way of knowing this beforehand...

finish on the table is rough - so rough you can file your fingernails
down on the grooves.

Did you put a profilometer on it? The grind is a rotary wheel,
reciprcating table grind with a wheel large enough to cover the whole
table. It leaves a different profile than a blanchard grind (rotary
wheel, rotary table) or an engine grind (horizontal shaft wheel over a
linear feed table). Light reflection and pattern are different. I
would be willing to bet that would measure as good as whatever you are
comparing it to and well within the specifications.

Don't happen to have on of those in my back pocket. ;-)
But I don't need a profilometer to know it is considerably worse than
the tables on display. It is flat, and even, but the grind is heavy.

The method of grinding used is irrelevant to the surface roughness,
only to the pattern it leaves behind - all other factors being the
same. The stone used to cut the table appears to have been rough, as
there are alternating deeper and shallower grooves repeated throughout
the cyclic mill pattern.

I didn't use the reflected light pattern to determine the roughness.
I used real-world things like my fingernail and a block of wood.

But I can put my hands on a laser photomicrometer that can discern
point source difference in height of around .00005". I doubt they'll
let me take it home, however.

However, the ultimate appearance of the saw table is the first thing
that a woodworker sees, and a rough surface - to the hand or to the
eye - is a definite turn-off to a prospective buyer of a new saw.

RMS measurement is the statistical diference between the peaks and
valleys of a surface. each method provides a different pattern and
different light reflection many times with the sam RMS measurement.
I've compared some blanchard or engine surfaces that were three times
worse that the rotary/recip and would have sworn they were the same.

Root Mean Square. A weighted algorithmic procedure for determining
the overall average value of things like AC waveforms, mechanical
aberrations, etc. It comes up a lot in the electronic work I do...

Again, appearance wasn't the criteria. Limitation of the medium...
I can't post a photo enabling you to feel physical roughness.

wood over the surface with slight pressure results in wood dust on the
table. The table has been ground so far that the miter bar is only
.001" below the surface of the table at points.

Outstanding. That is exactly what the factory trys to achieve. As
close to flush as possible without being above the table.

Not really a problem, just less clearance than I am used to. But a
tolerance of .001" is pretty tight, considering that, as you state,
the table may move over time. Cast iron is funny like that.

The edges of the
miter slot are sharp, and will have to be chamfered slightly, for fear
of physical injury. I checked the table with a machinist straightedge
and feeler gauges. The main table is flat within .003", averaging
slightly better.

Once again, outstanding. Well within the specifications in fact in
the top statistical quadrant depending on the direction measured.

Very Flat, yes - I am happy that the table is so true.
Sharp edges, a negative factor. Nothing that can't be fixed with a
few swipes of a file, but still they are sharp and a potential safety
factor. And I felt the need to relate this fact.

The side extensions are generally flat within .003",
but there is one dip that is out .006" They are milled the with the
same finish the table. I have not mounted the extensions, so I cannot
comment on the overall flatness and alignment of the top assembled.

Probably will be very good and well within specifications. However,
you seem to be very particular and if you want perfection you can
always use shim stock to achieve that.

Yes, I have no complaints about the flatness of the table, especially
considering what I have been using. And I have no doubt that the
extension table may need to be shimmed. I have plenty of brass and
Teflon stock of varying thicknesses.

Getting two (or three) individually milled cast iron slabs to line up
is an exercise in patience and finesse.

There is a curious bracket inside the saw, which from all appearances
will prevent a blade from being mounted. It's not mentioned in the
instructions, and since I didn't get a fricken parts manual, I don't
know what it is yet, or whether I am supposed to remove it.

Black U formed channel? Saw dust diverter. keeps the sawdust going
down instead of back up through the insert. However, from your
picture it may be installed improperly. Are the spacers on the inside
of the channel? I can't really tell, but if they are it is wrong.
Should be on the outside of the channel spaced off the front trunion.

That is what the display model looked like, a dust diverter.
And I even commented that, "Hey that's a good idea, a dust diverter."
But the one mounted on mine interferes with the blade - it's off
center with the arbor.

There are two hex head bolts holding it to the mech. There are
spacers between the bolt heads and the 'U-Channel", which is directly
in contact with the trunnion. But since it's not in the manual - or
in the non-existent parts breakout, I don't know for sure...

See comment above. If you are pitching that Leitz blade, I'll take
it.

Nah, I'll give it a shot. As I said, I don't expect perfection from
an OEM blade, and I can use it on lesser projects to protect my nice
WWII. I do, however have a few Dewalt blades you are welcome to.

I checked for interference with the motor and such, plugged it in, and
fired it up. It thumped like a cold nylon bias-ply tire for a several
seconds but smoothed out after a few more. The belts had been sitting
in the same spot for over a year according to the serial number - no
wait, THERE ISN'T ONE - according to the date on the refurb sticker.

Will stay smooth with regular use, will take a set if it sits. will
smooth back out with use.

Sure, I figured, and stated, as much. If I sat for a year in one
position, I would have trouble running smoothly as well. ;-)

I've only run the saw for 20 seconds or so - long enough to check out
the GPE switch for function and power fail shutoff and to insure that
the motor ran properly.

some Dewalt and Bosch tools, but Delta has been the mainstay.

Very good to see. Now for a larger shop............

Boy, you've got that part right! I have to clean up every time I do
anything, and it is an impediment to completing any project. Tripping
over things while surrounded by sharp, hard metal power tools is not
my way of working. Way too many doors as well.

Granted, I've been a bit harsh,

A touch.

Perhaps - but no malice implied. Just an objective overview.

I'll do a thorough test & alignment after I decide what to do with it.
The table, although certainly flat enough for woodworking, is in
serious need of some polishing. And it looks like I'll have to tear
down the mech and replace that blasted bent shaft, 'cause there's no
way I'm loading this thing back up to swap for another unit

I'll be glad to walk you through that shaft replacement if you need
help.

You might point out any caveats, but I'm pretty handy mechanically.

allowing another trained monkey

See comment above. Repeat here.

Sarcasm . Get used to it - Usenet is total anarchy.
Emily Post doesn't visit here to teach good manners...

Besides, you haven't seen some of the mechanics I've worked with over
the years - where 'trained monkey' was an insult to the monkey.
A bit colorful, but don't take it so personally. ;-)

There is no better way to understand the inner workings of a machine
than to tear it down and put it back together again. Then, when or if
something goes wrong, or you hear a funny sound, you know exactly what
it is and what to do about it - saving yourself time, energy, and
quite possibly, serious bodily injury.

If you are going to take it apart, I certainly hope you have the
proper instruments to set the blade alignment and distance from the
slot after the fact. It may seem right until you tilt the blade to
45. The dimensional zone is fairly small.

I understand. I know designers go to great lengths to come up with
designs that will maintain proper symmetry while tilting the blade AND
supporting 300 pounds of weight - over and over and over...

I assume Starrett micrometers, dial indicators, depth gauges and
various other machinist's measuring tools will suffice?

If not, tell me now and make the decision of accepting the dealer's
offer of another saw much easier. God only know how I'll get that
thing back onto the truck, however.

And does the original manual or parts list contain an overview of saw
alignment? If not, where do I get a copy that does? That is a
definite requirement of ownership for any machinery.

Thanks,


Greg G.