Since you took the time to do this I'll take the time to comment.
On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 04:03:53 -0500, Greg wrote:
Well guys, lunacy got the better of me and I drove down to the local
Industrial Machinery dealer to look at REAL table saws. I've had
enough of the warped table, 30" fence, noisy motor, and crappy cuts on
my cheap old contractor saw.
Looked around the place to see what other possible options existed.
General 50-185 - nahh - yet another cheesy imported contractor saw.
Decent looking Bies clone fence, made in Canada, but without the
handle retaining magnet. Same old twin parallel-bar arbor supports
that twist ever so slightly every time you change blade angles.
Taiwanese motor that looked pretty decent. Good paint job, that odd
General color. Nicely detailed metal adjustment wheels, but the
effect is ruined by the cheap-ass pin locators that allow the handles
to flop around. Shoulda used a flat and setscrew, guys - it can't
cost THAT much. After all, this is one of the main connections a user
has with his machine. Table finish was pretty good - couldn't catch a
fingernail on the mill marks, but there was an odd pattern to them..
General 650-T50 - much better, and the price demonstrates that fact.
Won't break this one down, as it is way more expensive than I had in
mind. But it did seem like a fine saw, with a nicely polished table.
Delta 'Hybrid' - ugghh... there are no words to describe how I feel
about this abortion. Completely Chinese. Flimsy contractor saw mech,
motor in base, cheesy handwheels, promising on-off switch - but
probably has under-rated pot-metal contacts, as do most. Table finish
is fair, but I didn't bother to check for warpage. Not a contender.
And the price? Get serious! I vowed to never own a Sears product
again, even though I was a devout customer in the 70s and own about a
thousand pounds of Craftsman Mechanics tools, but this thing makes
their new hybrid look pretty good. There is something funky about the
arbor as well.
Powermatic PM66 - Fantastic saw, fantastic table finish, exceedingly
smooth mechanism, great wheels, Baldor motor, great mobile base that
moves this behemoth with a 52" fence and extension table effortlessly
with one finger. Interestingly, it uses only 2 2V belts, rather than
the three 3V belts generally seen in a saw of this caliber. I have no
doubt, however, that it will cut anything you throw at it. The price
reflects it's perfection - at $2200+. I'm not all that fond of
Powermatic Gold - but if I could afford it, I could learn to love it.
No Farm Store motors for this puppy, it doesn't appear to have a
standard mounting frame, but a very proprietary motor mount.
(As does the Delta Unisaw.)
Ahhh, the Delta Unisaw - there it is. The table saw many a young man
has dreamed of for well over 25 years. Biesemeyer, the fence that
everyone likes, is pretty long in the tooth, but solid and very heavy.
Very little deflection - locks down solid. But the faces are not
replaceable without major surgery should they become damaged.
And the adjustment screws are not very convenient to adjust.
Good thing you only have to do it once.
The fence rule is a thin metal affair that is glued to the fence rail.
The Delta Uni Fence. The Uni Fence is pretty cool. Lots of neat
looking fasteners and the adjustments seem easy to get to. Many novel
features. Scale is up and out of the way - I like the look and feel,
but it seems a bit complicated, and not straddle jig friendly at all.
Saw proudly displays a sticker - Made in USA. But is it?
Yes
Press on...
Can't get into the motor housing, they still have the screw installed.
Required by UL. Your choice to leave it on. Cover will stay on
without it with the spring clips.
Handwheels are heavy, but the castings are a little rough. And those
shiny but rough T-shaped, winged locking knobs just look crappy - like
a glorified wing nut. I suppose they work, but a triangle shape with
the corners lobbed off and the in-betweens rounded inward would be
much more appropriate. Or just round. The mechanism is fairly smooth.
Clearly visible table milling marks, but nothing too bad. Blow molded
double layer motor cover - this should help quiet the saw's motor. 4"
dust port, chutes for dust collection. What appears to be a magnetic
switch, but they just HAVE to call it a GPE switch - or is it a LVC?
Damned acronyms. Switch looks rather dated. No paddle for quick
shutoff, but the GO button is recessed, and the STOP button is a
mushroom. Should be easy enough to hit in a hurry, and is located
just below the fence rail on the left of the saw. It's sure as hell
an improvement over the "Switch of Death" that came on my current saw.
Chinese saw blade. Cripes, why do they do that? Just sell the damned
saw and let the user save a few bucks and buy a real blade of his
choice.
If you are talking about the blade you have pictured in your picture
of accessories, it is very high quality blade manufactured by Leitz
in Germany. you may have also gotten a stamped steel blade mounted on
the unit, and if so probably Vermont American. UL requires the
inclusion of a blade. Many of the competitors are NOT UL LISTED AND
THEREFORE DO NOT HAVE TO SUPPLY A BLADE AND MOST DON'T.
The extension table is nothing special, and has rough lumber
showing on the end. It's not flush to the saw table wing, but it's
close - could be assembly error and abuse. Oh, and the blade guard,
what a joke. It allegedly props up for blade changes, but don't count
on it staying there. It's no wonder so many of these things end up
sitting in a dusty shop corner.
Once again, UL issue. UL requires that the blade guard fall of its
own accord when the insert is back in and the saw is operational. If
you don't take the extra pains to be UL listed you don't have to
follow this rule. And all standard guards of of a similar design
except that the non UL listed units don't have to follow the auto drop
rule.
Most of the saws on display are thrown together haphazardly or
incompletely. Not a good way to make a positive first impression.
Damned, has every one just given up? Where is the pride in
workmanship? For that matter, where is the greed that one assumes
would demand a good showing of your wares?
Oh, well. Welcome to the 21st century - where nobody gives a ****.
Here's the deal - they have a stack of refurbished 36-L31XBC50 saws
for $1249. Pretty good deal, even with a few warts. So I bought one.
I picked a salesman who actually looked me in the eye and said "Hello"
when I came in. Most of them wandered around and ignored me. A nice
old gentleman in a flannel shirt - named Ron. Don't get me wrong, I
don't want anyone hanging over my shoulder, pressuring me like a car
salesmen, but Jeeze... Look in my direction once or twice, act
interested, acknowledge my existence.
Redmon and sons perchance. If so very good dealer.
Got it loaded up fairly quickly. The forklift operator was careful.
Thanked the salesman, tied it down with ratcheting straps brought for
the job, and left. Man, is the road in this industrial park pathetic.
Holes and railroad tracks so deep you have to slow to 2 MPH to keep
from bottoming the suspension. Carefully, cautiously, I completed the
trek home. Watching for every cell-phone yakking idiot, every
red-light running moron - and there were a slew of them.
Man, I hate cities like this.
Fortunately, I don't have far to go - about 10 miles.
Arrived at the homestead and carefully backed into the drive. I don't
want anything untoward happening to this saw - it's got to last a
lifetime. (Which in my case, probably isn't that long...)
http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw01.jpg
Unloaded all the accessories, and then came the moment that separates
mice from men. Pulled the tailgate and slid two 2x10s with metal
hooks over the bumper. Slid the saw to the edge and down the planks.
No problem, but man is this thing heavy! SWMBO helps push the monster
out of the bed, and helps stabilize it from tipping over. Great!
It's on the ground. Now for the hand truck. Wow, it's STILL heavy as
hell. Carefully rolled it into the garage - the tip sensor says
everything is OK - no red. Everything should be cool.
tilt watch is to indicate an uncontrolled tip over on someone's
shipping dock or warehouse. There was an earlier post where someone
was advised not to lay the saw over to change a sub base. It is not a
problem. you just cant let it free fall tilt. No saw could stand
that.
http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw02.jpg
Stripped the straps and box. The pallet just falls off - the attaching
screws have been ripped off in some previous life, and all that was
holding it to the saw are the straps. Well, that's OK - I don't have
to find a wrench and crawl around on the floor looking for fasteners.
I pulled the extension wings off the table surface, and placed them on
the now empty box. These things are heavy as hell!
http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw03.jpg
I stand back for a good look. Cabinet looks like new, base is not
bent, switch isn't broken. But wait, what's this? My heart implodes.
The tilt adjustment shaft looks wonkey. Maybe it's an illusion. So I
scramble towards the saw for a closer look.
http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw05.jpg
Yea, something's funny here, the end of the shaft looks smashed. I
pull the motor cover and wrestle with the expanded foam bags and foam
blocks. These have apparently been foamed in place, 'cause its darn
near impossible to remove them - even with the motor lifted and tilted
to an optimum angle. Finally, I hold my mouth in just the right
position and they fly to freedom. I pull the blade and hardware box
from the base, and open it, frantically looking for the handwheel and
shaft key. What's this? A crummy, poorly stapled, one sided copy of
the owners manual, for a different model, and no parts list or
exploded diagrams. (Yes, I know you can download copies, it's just
not the same as an original.)
http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw04.jpg
I slip the key in the slot and it doesn't fit properly. I finally
find a position that it accepts and slide the wheel over the shaft.
Uh-Oh.. it doesn't go on very far. But it's enough to rotate the
shaft. My worst fears are confirmed. The shaft is bent! About 2
inches into the cabinet, there is a severe bend. ARRGGHH!!!
http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw06.jpg
So I inspect the reminder of the saw - what's this? Apparently the
saw has been damaged previously, and the front trunnion has been
replaced.
How can you tell?
It appears that a large monkey with a sledge hammer has
been recruited to repair this saw.
Arrogant, insulting and and innappropriate comment.
The motor shaft has been driven in
with a hammer and the shaft is peened over from the blows. And a WEG
motor - made in Brazil of all places. No Baldor for MY Unisaw.
Well, at least it's not Chinese. Unlike the handwheels, accessory
castings, the miter gauge, and most of the hardware.
http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw07.jpg
A quick scan of the net shows no outstanding motor problems, and WEG
motors are used in a number of applications - including huge 100 HP
industrial models. I guess it'll be OK.
I believe the largest motor manufacturer in the world although I'm not
sure that is relevant.
Then I notice the serial number has been cut from the unit.
How fracken tacky - makes it look like stolen merchandise. I don't
mind the refurb sticker, but in this age of computer tracking,
wouldn't it suffice to simply tag it in the computer as a refurb and
affix a label designating it as such? Is it necessary to totally
orphan the unit by slicing away it's birth certificate?
They don't do this with refurb electronic equipment.
Many dealers are small and not set up to access computer data base.
They would honor a warranty based on the original serial number. The
warranty for reconditioned equipment different. It is a simple system
to make sure that the appropriate warranty applies.
http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw13.jpg
I rub away the cosmolene to reveal the table surface. The surface
finish on the table is rough - so rough you can file your fingernails
down on the grooves.
Did you put a profilometer on it? The grind is a rotary wheel,
reciprcating table grind with a wheel large enough to cover the whole
table. It leaves a different profile than a blanchard grind (rotary
wheel, rotary table) or an engine grind (horizontal shaft wheel over a
linear feed table). Light reflection and pattern are different. I
would be willing to bet that would measure as good as whatever you are
comparing it to and well within the specifications.
RMS measurement is the statistical diference between the peaks and
valleys of a surface. each method provides a different pattern and
different light reflection many times with the sam RMS measurement.
I've compared some blanchard or engine surfaces that were three times
worse that the rotary/recip and would have sworn they were the same.
wood over the surface with slight pressure results in wood dust on the
table. The table has been ground so far that the miter bar is only
.001" below the surface of the table at points.
Outstanding. That is exactly what the factory trys to achieve. As
close to flush as possible without being above the table.
The edges of the
miter slot are sharp, and will have to be chamfered slightly, for fear
of physical injury. I checked the table with a machinist straightedge
and feeler gauges. The main table is flat within .003", averaging
slightly better.
Once again, outstanding. Well within the specifications in fact in
the top statistical quadrant depending on the direction measured.
The side extensions are generally flat within .003",
but there is one dip that is out .006" They are milled the with the
same finish the table. I have not mounted the extensions, so I cannot
comment on the overall flatness and alignment of the top assembled.
Probably will be very good and well within specifications. However,
you seem to be very particular and if you want perfection you can
always use shim stock to achieve that.
http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw09.jpg
Certainly nothing like the Delta jointer I bought a couple years ago.
See comment above talking about the different types of grind processes
http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw11.jpg
There is a curious bracket inside the saw, which from all appearances
will prevent a blade from being mounted. It's not mentioned in the
instructions, and since I didn't get a fricken parts manual, I don't
know what it is yet, or whether I am supposed to remove it. Probably
has to do with stiffening the carriage for shipping. Check out the
table finish, under the gooey stuff.
Black U formed channel? Saw dust diverter. keeps the sawdust going
down instead of back up through the insert. However, from your
picture it may be installed improperly. Are the spacers on the inside
of the channel? I can't really tell, but if they are it is wrong.
Should be on the outside of the channel spaced off the front trunion.
http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw10.jpg
On the plus side, the fence, rails, extension table and legs are all
new items. As is the disposable Chinese blade
See comment above. If you are pitching that Leitz blade, I'll take
it.
- it should work fine
for cutting up 2x4's. The Forest Woodworker II is coming off the old
contractor saw tomorrow.
http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw08.jpg
I checked for interference with the motor and such, plugged it in, and
fired it up. It thumped like a cold nylon bias-ply tire for a several
seconds but smoothed out after a few more. The belts had been sitting
in the same spot for over a year according to the serial number - no
wait, THERE ISN'T ONE - according to the date on the refurb sticker.
Will stay smooth with regular use, will take a set if it sits. will
smooth back out with use.
Haven't got time tonight to clean it up and REALLY go over it, but so
far, it's seems functional - but that table is damned rough.
The cabinet is clean, the accessories new, the price was considerably
cheaper than the NEW Unisaw. You can't blame Delta for the damage to
the shaft which was probably caused by the shipper slamming the unit
into the side of the truck cargo bay, thereby ripping the pallet
holdowns from the base and bending the shaft. I CAN blame Delta for
not providing a stack of captive cardboard or high density foam to
protect it. And lumpy belts are just the nature of rubber belts that
have sat for an extended period. I believe they will smooth out once
it is fully assembled and run in.
I'll perform the infamous dime test later on. (Inflation, ya know.)
My initial impression is that the Grizzly 1023SL table finish is
looking pretty good at this point, but I am still fearful of shipping
damage with these as well. And I was able to place my hands on the
Delta immediately. But the poor table finish leaves me somewhat
disappointed.
Lest you think I am a Delta basher, have a look at this. The
Taiwanese imports were excellent. And I've put up with some marginal
quality on some of their Chinese stuff, simply to support them, and
Norm, and PBS, and a US based company - in hopes that things would get
better. But my loyalty has been wavering. I have a Jet lathe and
some Dewalt and Bosch tools, but Delta has been the mainstay.
http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw12.jpg
Very good to see. Now for a larger shop............
I'm not soliciting sympathy, or support, or even comments from the
wREC. This is an hour wasted simply as a public service - to save
others from any unexpected surprises should they decide to purchase
one of these saws.
And pardon me for being concerned, but I like to buy things that are
Made in America. Even if many of the parts are imported. It's nice
to see my neighbors working and able to afford food and overpriced
heating oil. Hell, I'll be eating rice and beans for the next year...
Granted, I've been a bit harsh,
A touch.
and the saw will probably run fine for
many years. But the fit and finish are not quite up to the standards
I expected from the grand old name of Unisaw.
But you get what you pay for - minus stock commissions.
I'll do a thorough test & alignment after I decide what to do with it.
The table, although certainly flat enough for woodworking, is in
serious need of some polishing. And it looks like I'll have to tear
down the mech and replace that blasted bent shaft, 'cause there's no
way I'm loading this thing back up to swap for another unit
I'll be glad to walk you through that shaft replacement if you need
help.
.. And
allowing another trained monkey
See comment above. Repeat here.
to hammer shafts into place is not
even a realistic consideration. It'll give me a chance to "bond".
There is no better way to understand the inner workings of a machine
than to tear it down and put it back together again. Then, when or if
something goes wrong, or you hear a funny sound, you know exactly what
it is and what to do about it - saving yourself time, energy, and
quite possibly, serious bodily injury.
If you are going to take it apart, I certainly hope you have the
proper instruments to set the blade alignment and distance from the
slot after the fact. It may seem right until you tilt the blade to
45. The dimensional zone is fairly small.
I guess I've got to think up a name for her...
Was Halloween full of horror this year? You decide!
Greg G.