On 1/15/2016 2:10 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 1/15/2016 10:47 AM, Susan Bugher wrote:
On 1/15/2016 10:15 AM, rbowman wrote:

The SONY Digital Paper DPT-S1 is A4 size with 1600 x 1200 resolution.
It's also around $800 and I don't know if it does anything other than
pdf's.

Nope - PDF only. Thanks for mentioning the Sony. You inspired me to
do a bit
of browsing - found a nice web site that lists supported formats for e
ink
ereaders (but not for color ereaders).

http://www.the-ebook-reader.com/
http://www.the-ebook-reader.com/ebook-reader-comparison.html
http://www.the-ebook-reader.com/large-ebook-readers.html

Lots of other info too - reviews, recommendations. . .

Thanks, Susan, I'll chase down the links and see if it helps me
sort out the "mess". I suspect SWMBO won't be happy with *any*
of these options ("Why can't I just have a BOOK??!")

Hey, that might be the best and least expensive solution. Order used
books online, delivered to your doorstep a few days later. .

for example:
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?sts=t&tn=snow+crash
Snow Crash by Stephenson, Neal - starting at $3.95 total

A lot of recent paperbacks in good condition cost about $3.00 total.
example:
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=Suzanne+Collins&sts=t&tn=Hunger+g ames

Susan
--

On 1/15/2016 8:27 PM, Susan Bugher wrote:

Thanks, Susan, I'll chase down the links and see if it helps me
sort out the "mess". I suspect SWMBO won't be happy with *any*
of these options ("Why can't I just have a BOOK??!")

Hey, that might be the best and least expensive solution. Order used books
online, delivered to your doorstep a few days later. .

for example:
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?sts=t&tn=snow+crash
Snow Crash by Stephenson, Neal - starting at $3.95 total

A lot of recent paperbacks in good condition cost about $3.00 total.
example:
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=Suzanne+Collins&sts=t&tn=Hunger+g ames

The problem is you can't find *new releases* in the used book market.

On 01/15/2016 10:11 AM, Don Y wrote:

Sheesh! I think I have 10-15 year old PDAs with screens bigger than that!

I've never noticed a limitation. My tablet's screen is and inch longer
and 1/8 narrower for 7" diagonal. The problem you get into is the
overall size. Back when we started to develop a tablet product I spec'ed
out a couple of Acer 10" tablets for the programmers on the project. The
selling point was the charger was a separate connection so you could
leave it on the wall wart and use the USB port for the debugging interface.

After working with them, I walked across the street to BestBuy and
bought an almost identical tablet but in the 7" form factor. I realize
that if I was going to hump around a 10" tablet I might as well bring
the 13" Win7 notebook with the real keyboard. I can slip a 7" tablet, or
the almost identically sized Kindle into a cargo pocket.

Phones have been through the same thing. The postage stamp sized display
is awkward, so they started to grow up to the phablet class with 5 to 7"
screens.

It's all about being mobile and if you can't reasonably stick it in a
pocket or purse it's a problem.

On 01/15/2016 10:47 AM, Susan Bugher wrote:
Nope - PDF only. Thanks for mentioning the Sony. You inspired me to do
a bit of browsing - found a nice web site that lists supported formats
for e ink ereaders (but not for color ereaders).

http://www.the-ebook-reader.com/
http://www.the-ebook-reader.com/ebook-reader-comparison.html
http://www.the-ebook-reader.com/large-ebook-readers.html

Lots of other info too - reviews, recommendations. . .

Thanks. If my current keyboard dies I'll probably move to the
Paperwhite. I'll admit to being firmly embedded in the Amazon ecosystem
these days

When Amazon first started up they tended to promise items they couldn't
deliver, especially with less popular books and European CDs, so I
ordered more from Barnes & Noble. Amazon got it together. There's a
brick & mortar B&N across from where I work and I walked over last week
to but a 50% off calendar. I think that's the only thing I've bought
there in about a year. Leaning towards Amazon is why I went with the
Kindle rather than the Nook. In retrospect it was the better choice.

On 01/15/2016 12:10 PM, Don Y wrote:
Thanks, Susan, I'll chase down the links and see if it helps me
sort out the "mess". I suspect SWMBO won't be happy with *any*
of these options ("Why can't I just have a BOOK??!")

300 books in a Kindle are very easy to dust... And she'll have enough
room on the shelves for knick knacks rather than trying to stuff books
in two deep and make structural improvements when the shelves start to
sag too badly.

On 1/15/2016 9:05 PM, rbowman wrote:
On 01/15/2016 10:11 AM, Don Y wrote:

Sheesh! I think I have 10-15 year old PDAs with screens bigger than that!

I've never noticed a limitation. My tablet's screen is and inch longer and 1/8
narrower for 7" diagonal. The problem you get into is the overall size. Back
when we started to develop a tablet product I spec'ed out a couple of Acer 10"
tablets for the programmers on the project. The selling point was the charger
was a separate connection so you could leave it on the wall wart and use the
USB port for the debugging interface.

After working with them, I walked across the street to BestBuy and bought an
almost identical tablet but in the 7" form factor. I realize that if I was
going to hump around a 10" tablet I might as well bring the 13" Win7 notebook
with the real keyboard. I can slip a 7" tablet, or the almost identically sized
Kindle into a cargo pocket.

Phones have been through the same thing. The postage stamp sized display is
awkward, so they started to grow up to the phablet class with 5 to 7" screens.

It's all about being mobile and if you can't reasonably stick it in a pocket or
purse it's a problem.

Neither of us is looking for "portable" more than "living room, bedroom,
or office". We don't travel anymore. In the past, if I traveled, I'd
pack a large "aircraft carrier" laptop (small displays and small
keyboards are irritating). SWMBO would pack a *tiny* laptop in
her travels to economize on space in her luggage (she would only use
it to stay connected to her email).

When I reference stuff in my archive, the tablet PC just frees me from
sitting at a "PC" (even laptops create the "desktop" style interface).
Standardizing on PDF's means I can also reference those same documents
when "working" at a desktop/laptop -- without having to deal with an
assortment of formats.

When she's reading (leisure), the BOOK is in her lap on the couch,
in bed, etc. When not actively reading, the "novel du jour" sits
in a basket by the bed. She could conceivably store an ereader in
that same space when not in use. Charging would require some other
arrangement.

But, she's likely to get frustrated, at some point, with the
experience. She was using a PDA (kept in her secretary) for
addresses and calendar. But, grew frustrated with ActiveSync's
flakey performance and opted to go back to paper and pencil.

On 1/15/2016 9:19 PM, rbowman wrote:
On 01/15/2016 12:10 PM, Don Y wrote:
Thanks, Susan, I'll chase down the links and see if it helps me
sort out the "mess". I suspect SWMBO won't be happy with *any*
of these options ("Why can't I just have a BOOK??!")

300 books in a Kindle are very easy to dust... And she'll have enough room on
the shelves for knick knacks rather than trying to stuff books in two deep and
make structural improvements when the shelves start to sag too badly.

I repeat, she's only looking for this to read LIBRARY BOOKS.
You don't have to store -- or DUST -- books that are only
in your house for a couple of weeks! :

On 1/15/2016 9:16 PM, rbowman wrote:
When Amazon first started up they tended to promise items they couldn't
deliver, especially with less popular books and European CDs, so I ordered more
from Barnes & Noble. Amazon got it together. There's a brick & mortar B&N
across from where I work and I walked over last week to but a 50% off calendar.
I think that's the only thing I've bought there in about a year. Leaning
towards Amazon is why I went with the Kindle rather than the Nook. In
retrospect it was the better choice.

We deal with Amazon very little. Our two most recent transactions
were net losses -- for Amazon *and* us (items returned for full
refund -- Amazon lost two shipping charges; we lost two "buying
events")

The second package is sitting on the kitchen counter waiting to
be dropped off at the UPS office tomorrow.

The BIG advantage to brick and mortars is you can actually *see*
what you are buying and don't have to rely on some dweeb to put
the *right* item in the box!

On 1/16/2016 1:03 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 1/15/2016 9:19 PM, rbowman wrote:
On 01/15/2016 12:10 PM, Don Y wrote:
Thanks, Susan, I'll chase down the links and see if it helps me
sort out the "mess". I suspect SWMBO won't be happy with *any*
of these options ("Why can't I just have a BOOK??!")

300 books in a Kindle are very easy to dust... And she'll have enough
room on
the shelves for knick knacks rather than trying to stuff books in two
deep and
make structural improvements when the shelves start to sag too badly.

I repeat, she's only looking for this to read LIBRARY BOOKS.
You don't have to store -- or DUST -- books that are only
in your house for a couple of weeks! :


Sounds like you should stick with real books then. No sense spending
money for the reader and then buying books if she is only going to read
books from the local library. Both Nook and Amazon prime have freebies,
but mostly older books. If she is reading two books a month from the
local free library that could translate to $20 a month to buy them.

In your case, I'd borrow a reader from a friend for a couple of hours to
see if she would like to handle it at all. Or stop at a Barnes & Noble
store to handle one. It has to be her choice if she is going to like
it. From things I've read and heard over the past couple of years, the
split is maybe 80-20 on the like/dislike.

On 01/16/2016 01:06 AM, Don Y wrote:
We deal with Amazon very little. Our two most recent transactions
were net losses -- for Amazon *and* us (items returned for full
refund -- Amazon lost two shipping charges; we lost two "buying
events")

The second package is sitting on the kitchen counter waiting to
be dropped off at the UPS office tomorrow.

The BIG advantage to brick and mortars is you can actually *see*
what you are buying and don't have to rely on some dweeb to put
the *right* item in the box!

Amazon is my goto store for virtually everything.

Shirts and pants are the only products that are troublesome since
the idiot clothing manufacturers can't seem to standardize on sizes.

On 1/15/2016 10:41 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 1/15/2016 8:27 PM, Susan Bugher wrote:

Thanks, Susan, I'll chase down the links and see if it helps me
sort out the "mess". I suspect SWMBO won't be happy with *any*
of these options ("Why can't I just have a BOOK??!")

Hey, that might be the best and least expensive solution. Order used
books
online, delivered to your doorstep a few days later. .

for example:
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?sts=t&tn=snow+crash
Snow Crash by Stephenson, Neal - starting at $3.95 total

A lot of recent paperbacks in good condition cost about $3.00 total.
example:
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=Suzanne+Collins&sts=t&tn=Hunger+g ames

The problem is you can't find *new releases* in the used book market.

I believe they show up pretty fast - but maybe not real cheap at first.
Just threw that out as one more option to consider. Good luck with your
quest for the best solution.

Susan
--

On 1/16/2016 10:14 AM, Juan Doe wrote:
On 01/16/2016 01:06 AM, Don Y wrote:
We deal with Amazon very little. Our two most recent transactions
were net losses -- for Amazon *and* us (items returned for full
refund -- Amazon lost two shipping charges; we lost two "buying
events")

The second package is sitting on the kitchen counter waiting to
be dropped off at the UPS office tomorrow.

The BIG advantage to brick and mortars is you can actually *see*
what you are buying and don't have to rely on some dweeb to put
the *right* item in the box!

Amazon is my goto store for virtually everything.

Shirts and pants are the only products that are troublesome since
the idiot clothing manufacturers can't seem to standardize on sizes.

SWMBO bought two (identical) pair of pants. They were different sizes
(though marked identically). Additionally, the cuffs were frayed.
In a brick and mortar store, she'd notice they were different sizes before
bringing them home -- without even having to resort to the "dressing room".

I bought a "22cm, up angle, USB A male to USB A female cable". What
arrived was an 18cm, DOWN angle, USB A male to USB A female cable"
despite the fact that I had deliberately NOT ordered that variation.
I was able to characterize the cable within seconds of handling
the PACKAGE.

She bought a "cleaning kit" -- 8 oz variety (three 8 oz bottles).
The *2 oz* variety arrived. It was a no-brainer to realize those
tiny bottles couldn't possibly contain "a cup" of liquid, each.

In each case, we've invested as much time as if we'd driven to
a local store, HANDLED the items ourselves to verify they are
exactly what we want, then driven home.

On 1/16/2016 9:07 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 1/16/2016 1:03 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 1/15/2016 9:19 PM, rbowman wrote:
On 01/15/2016 12:10 PM, Don Y wrote:
Thanks, Susan, I'll chase down the links and see if it helps me
sort out the "mess". I suspect SWMBO won't be happy with *any*
of these options ("Why can't I just have a BOOK??!")

300 books in a Kindle are very easy to dust... And she'll have enough
room on
the shelves for knick knacks rather than trying to stuff books in two
deep and
make structural improvements when the shelves start to sag too badly.

I repeat, she's only looking for this to read LIBRARY BOOKS.
You don't have to store -- or DUST -- books that are only
in your house for a couple of weeks! :

Sounds like you should stick with real books then. No sense spending money for
the reader and then buying books if she is only going to read books from the
local library. Both Nook and Amazon prime have freebies, but mostly older
books. If she is reading two books a month from the local free library that
could translate to $20 a month to buy them.

If they are new releases, they tend not to be inexpensive. Then she's got
two books she'll have to donate?

In your case, I'd borrow a reader from a friend for a couple of hours to see if
she would like to handle it at all. Or stop at a Barnes & Noble store to
handle one. It has to be her choice if she is going to like it. From things
I've read and heard over the past couple of years, the split is maybe 80-20 on
the like/dislike.

We don't know anyone who uses an eReader. We can try B&N to see if the
*concept* is something she can accept. But, would still need to
see what the relative differences are between different products
and manufacturers. E.g., the little nook that my friend had would
be VERY disappointing (poor contrast, flimsy, etc).

[She's moved away in the years since then]

On 1/16/2016 10:31 AM, Susan Bugher wrote:
The problem is you can't find *new releases* in the used book market.

I believe they show up pretty fast - but maybe not real cheap at first. Just

And you have to go *looking* for them. The big appeal of the library
is you submit a request for an item (even before they have considered
buying it) and they inform you when it's arrived.

threw that out as one more option to consider. Good luck with your quest for
the best solution.

Thanks! I think we'll try Ed's suggestion of actually putting
some devices *in* her hands and see what she thinks. I'm sure the
demo units will have *some* sort of "reading material" preinstalled.

A neighbor has an iPad so I can ask her if she has any "reading"
software that she could demo for us. (doubtful, not the "reading type"!)

After seeing those, I can show her what *I* use, just so she has a
recent reference against which to compare...

And, if she opts for "none of the above", shrug

On 1/16/2016 1:41 PM, Don Y wrote:

SWMBO bought two (identical) pair of pants. They were different sizes
(though marked identically). Additionally, the cuffs were frayed.
In a brick and mortar store, she'd notice they were different sizes before
bringing them home -- without even having to resort to the "dressing room".

I bought a "22cm, up angle, USB A male to USB A female cable". What
arrived was an 18cm, DOWN angle, USB A male to USB A female cable"
despite the fact that I had deliberately NOT ordered that variation.
I was able to characterize the cable within seconds of handling
the PACKAGE.

She bought a "cleaning kit" -- 8 oz variety (three 8 oz bottles).
The *2 oz* variety arrived. It was a no-brainer to realize those
tiny bottles couldn't possibly contain "a cup" of liquid, each.

In each case, we've invested as much time as if we'd driven to
a local store, HANDLED the items ourselves to verify they are
exactly what we want, then driven home.

In the past 6 or 8 years of using Amazon I've never had a problem, never
had a return. I can see why you are disappointed given the failure rate
of 100% but for most of us it is 0%.

We've bought a variety of merchandise from home goods, electronics,
medical supplies. but not much clothing. I just checked and I've placed
140 orders with 1 to 8 items, every one perfect.

On 1/16/2016 2:08 PM, Don Y wrote:

Thanks! I think we'll try Ed's suggestion of actually putting
some devices *in* her hands and see what she thinks. I'm sure the
demo units will have *some* sort of "reading material" preinstalled.

A neighbor has an iPad so I can ask her if she has any "reading"
software that she could demo for us. (doubtful, not the "reading type"!)

After seeing those, I can show her what *I* use, just so she has a
recent reference against which to compare...

Don't recall what you use. You might take a look at these: :

FBReader is a free (and ad-free) multi-platform ebook reader.
https://fbreader.org/

Cool Reader A cross-platform XML/CSS based eBook reader
http://sourceforge.net/projects/crengine/

And, if she opts for "none of the above", shrug

grin

Susan
--

On 1/16/2016 12:23 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

In each case, we've invested as much time as if we'd driven to
a local store, HANDLED the items ourselves to verify they are
exactly what we want, then driven home.

In the past 6 or 8 years of using Amazon I've never had a problem, never had a
return. I can see why you are disappointed given the failure rate of 100% but
for most of us it is 0%.

We've bought a variety of merchandise from home goods, electronics, medical
supplies. but not much clothing. I just checked and I've placed 140 orders
with 1 to 8 items, every one perfect.

I've never had an issue with an *eBay* purchase -- and those are
"average joes", not businesses!

I've never had a problem with a DX purchase (and they have umpteen
different varieties of some of their products).

We tend to have very *specific* "wants". E.g., the USB cable *had*
to bend UP -- not down or off to the left or right like the other
amazon offerings that I skipped over. It had to be 22cm long -- not
the 18cm or 20cm that some of the others claimed. Someone else
may just have *picked* this particular "right angle" cable without
regard for those details. And, if the "wrong" part arrived, might
never have noticed that it plugs in upside down... or is a few inches
too short, etc.

E.g., if I order a hamburger, I *don't* want a cheeseburger. Nor
a Reuben (I don't like cheese or corned beef!). If you don't want
to sell hamburgers, then don't put them on the menu. If you HAVE
them on the menu, then be able to deliver one when it is ordered!

On 1/16/2016 12:53 PM, Susan Bugher wrote:
On 1/16/2016 2:08 PM, Don Y wrote:

Thanks! I think we'll try Ed's suggestion of actually putting
some devices *in* her hands and see what she thinks. I'm sure the
demo units will have *some* sort of "reading material" preinstalled.

A neighbor has an iPad so I can ask her if she has any "reading"
software that she could demo for us. (doubtful, not the "reading type"!)

After seeing those, I can show her what *I* use, just so she has a
recent reference against which to compare...

Don't recall what you use. You might take a look at these: :

My documents are all being standardized as PDF's. This lets me
access them with one reader (software) regardless of from which
computer I opt to access them. It also lets me put things
other than text/illustration into the file.

FBReader is a free (and ad-free) multi-platform ebook reader.
https://fbreader.org/

Cool Reader A cross-platform XML/CSS based eBook reader
http://sourceforge.net/projects/crengine/

And, if she opts for "none of the above", shrug

grin

You grin, I frown! :

(sigh) I can truly sympathize with IT folks given the sort of
crap they have to address...

On 01/15/2016 08:27 PM, Susan Bugher wrote:
Hey, that might be the best and least expensive solution. Order used
books online, delivered to your doorstep a few days later. .

http://www.hamiltonbook.com/

Edward Hamilton specializes in remaindered books. You can pick up a few
tons of yesterday's coffee table books inexpensively. I don't know if
he's changed his shipping charges but a couple of times I think the
postage cost him more than what he got from the books.

On 01/15/2016 08:41 PM, Don Y wrote:

The problem is you can't find *new releases* in the used book market.

Patience... I use Netflix and watch some of the cable TV programs on
DVD so for current shows I'm a year behind. One has to be careful to
avoid spoilers.

On Saturday, January 16, 2016 at 12:41:03 PM UTC-6, Don Y wrote:
On 1/16/2016 10:14 AM, Juan Doe wrote:
On 01/16/2016 01:06 AM, Don Y wrote:
We deal with Amazon very little. Our two most recent transactions
were net losses -- for Amazon *and* us (items returned for full
refund -- Amazon lost two shipping charges; we lost two "buying
events")

The second package is sitting on the kitchen counter waiting to
be dropped off at the UPS office tomorrow.

The BIG advantage to brick and mortars is you can actually *see*
what you are buying and don't have to rely on some dweeb to put
the *right* item in the box!

Amazon is my goto store for virtually everything.

Shirts and pants are the only products that are troublesome since
the idiot clothing manufacturers can't seem to standardize on sizes.

SWMBO bought two (identical) pair of pants. They were different sizes
(though marked identically). Additionally, the cuffs were frayed.
In a brick and mortar store, she'd notice they were different sizes before
bringing them home -- without even having to resort to the "dressing room".

I bought a "22cm, up angle, USB A male to USB A female cable". What
arrived was an 18cm, DOWN angle, USB A male to USB A female cable"
despite the fact that I had deliberately NOT ordered that variation.
I was able to characterize the cable within seconds of handling
the PACKAGE.

She bought a "cleaning kit" -- 8 oz variety (three 8 oz bottles).
The *2 oz* variety arrived. It was a no-brainer to realize those
tiny bottles couldn't possibly contain "a cup" of liquid, each.

In each case, we've invested as much time as if we'd driven to
a local store, HANDLED the items ourselves to verify they are
exactly what we want, then driven home.

It's odd, I've had good luck with Amazon. I wonder if it has something to do with the personnel working at the regional warehouse that serves your area? I would go to a different post office here in town because the people working there were completely different in the way they treated customers. I've seen it in other business that had more than one location. O_o

[8~{} Uncle PO Monster

On 01/15/2016 11:01 PM, Don Y wrote:
When she's reading (leisure), the BOOK is in her lap on the couch,
in bed, etc. When not actively reading, the "novel du jour" sits
in a basket by the bed. She could conceivably store an ereader in
that same space when not in use. Charging would require some other
arrangement.

The pile by my bed includes the Kindle along with paper books, both
from the library and one's I've purchased.

But, she's likely to get frustrated, at some point, with the
experience. She was using a PDA (kept in her secretary) for
addresses and calendar. But, grew frustrated with ActiveSync's
flakey performance and opted to go back to paper and pencil.

My PDA is and always has been a spiral ring notebook small enough to
slip in a shirt pocket. I don't have that many addresses to keep track
of, or anything that passes for a calendar. At work I use the
Thunderbird calendar which gives me an alert so I can disappear before
tedious meetings.

On Saturday, January 16, 2016 at 1:56:35 PM UTC-6, Don Y wrote:
On 1/16/2016 12:23 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

In each case, we've invested as much time as if we'd driven to
a local store, HANDLED the items ourselves to verify they are
exactly what we want, then driven home.

In the past 6 or 8 years of using Amazon I've never had a problem, never had a
return. I can see why you are disappointed given the failure rate of 100% but
for most of us it is 0%.

We've bought a variety of merchandise from home goods, electronics, medical
supplies. but not much clothing. I just checked and I've placed 140 orders
with 1 to 8 items, every one perfect.

I've never had an issue with an *eBay* purchase -- and those are
"average joes", not businesses!

I've never had a problem with a DX purchase (and they have umpteen
different varieties of some of their products).

We tend to have very *specific* "wants". E.g., the USB cable *had*
to bend UP -- not down or off to the left or right like the other
amazon offerings that I skipped over. It had to be 22cm long -- not
the 18cm or 20cm that some of the others claimed. Someone else
may just have *picked* this particular "right angle" cable without
regard for those details. And, if the "wrong" part arrived, might
never have noticed that it plugs in upside down... or is a few inches
too short, etc.

E.g., if I order a hamburger, I *don't* want a cheeseburger. Nor
a Reuben (I don't like cheese or corned beef!). If you don't want
to sell hamburgers, then don't put them on the menu. If you HAVE
them on the menu, then be able to deliver one when it is ordered!

Many of the cables I order from Amazon arrive in the snail mail from China, not their U.S. distribution warehouse. I've had good luck so far. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Cable Monster

On 01/15/2016 11:06 PM, Don Y wrote:
The BIG advantage to brick and mortars is you can actually *see*
what you are buying and don't have to rely on some dweeb to put
the *right* item in the box!

Perhaps where you live. In a town of 50,000 finding something to see is
a chore or the price is ridiculous. I bought an Omron strapless HRM late
last year. The only one I could find in town was $50 at Walmart. The
same item was $25 from Amazon.

My worst experience was after I bought a car without a radio. It was a
new model so the dash kit was also a new design. I went to the leading
car stereo store in town and selected a radio. The salesman said they
didn't have the kit and would give me a call. Okay. A couple of days
later, he calls to say there isn't a kit but they might be able to
modify one. Meanwhile, I'd been on a Toyota forum and gave him the
manufacturer and part number. It was a Metra kit, one of the major
providers. He said he'd order it from the his supplier and it should be
delivered in three days. Okay. Three days later, I called. The shipment
had arrived with no kit. He would try to order it from Spokane. Okay.
Two days later, the Spokane delivery arrived, no kit.

I thanked him for his trouble through clenched teeth, went home, and
ordered the radio, dash kit, and harness from Amazon. Two days later
there was a pile of boxes on my deck when I got home from work and I
installed the radio.

That's how it runs for most things around here and it isn't only Amazon.
I went to a local archery shop looking for glue on target points.
They're mostly into compound bows, not traditional archery. The guy said
he could order them for me, but I could find them on the internet as
easily as he could.

Back to books: I went into the B&N store looking for a title and she
said she could order it and it would be a week or two at the full list
price. I ordered it from B&N online for 10% less and free delivery to my
door.

I really, really try to support the local brick and mortar stores but
I'm starting to think they all have a death wish.

On 1/16/2016 1:06 PM, rbowman wrote:
On 01/15/2016 08:41 PM, Don Y wrote:

The problem is you can't find *new releases* in the used book market.

Patience... I use Netflix and watch some of the cable TV programs on DVD so
for current shows I'm a year behind. One has to be careful to avoid spoilers.

She hears of titles that she will want to read -- from friends,
"the media", or referenced in other things she's reading.
Then, goes to the library's website to see if they have the
title. If so, places a hold and waits her turn -- never having
to remember she's done so (they remember *for* her!)

If they don't have it, she will try ILL (again through the
website) if it is an "old" title (ILL won't process "new"
titles). Again, the onus is again on the library to
remember this for her.

If too new for ILL (or, unobtainable), she'll "suggest a title
for purchase" which typically places her on the waiting list
for that title as a consequence of her suggestion.

So, for *print* material, the library proves to be an excellent
resource! Not only do they have (or get!) the materials, but
they also keep track of what they *should* be getting for you
thereby freeing you from remembering that you were looking/waiting
for a particular title.

For technical literature (article/journal reprints, etc.),
it provides the same sort of service for me (invariably, they
produce a paper document -- even if it had been transmitted
via facsimile). It's rare that they *can't* find something
but that I *could*; relatively common for them to find things
that I *can't* (cuz I don't have borrowing privileges at
the Las Vegas Public Library, etc.)

OTOH, when they exhaust their capabilities, I can still
dig deeper (e.g., writing directly to authors).

[I have to submit some FOIA requests for some other documents
I want/need -- no way the library would undertake that for me!]

On 01/16/2016 11:41 AM, Don Y wrote:
In each case, we've invested as much time as if we'd driven to
a local store, HANDLED the items ourselves to verify they are
exactly what we want, then driven home.

You've had a much different experience than I. I ordered three Photon
Microlights. Two were genuine but the third was a Chinese knockoff. It
worked but the LED color was bluer. I emailed Amazon and they refunded
the price, told me to keep the light. There was something that I
returned but I can't remember what it was. It was painless though. Get
the RGA online, print the label, slap it on the box, and throw it into
the FedEx bin on my way to work.

That's two instances I remember out of many orders. The UPS driver knows
me very well. This week I got 4 separate deliveries. LR44 batteries,
2016 batteries, a Silky Gomboy pruning saw, and 12 Clif Mojo bars. The
batteries were Everready and much cheaper than available locally, as
were the bars. The Silky would have been a special order.

On 1/16/2016 1:13 PM, rbowman wrote:
On 01/15/2016 11:01 PM, Don Y wrote:
When she's reading (leisure), the BOOK is in her lap on the couch,
in bed, etc. When not actively reading, the "novel du jour" sits
in a basket by the bed. She could conceivably store an ereader in
that same space when not in use. Charging would require some other
arrangement.

The pile by my bed includes the Kindle along with paper books, both from the
library and one's I've purchased.

Mine is lined with bookshelves (technical/reference literature).
I don't borrow "books" from the library (just DVD's).

But, she's likely to get frustrated, at some point, with the
experience. She was using a PDA (kept in her secretary) for
addresses and calendar. But, grew frustrated with ActiveSync's
flakey performance and opted to go back to paper and pencil.

My PDA is and always has been a spiral ring notebook small enough to slip in a
shirt pocket. I don't have that many addresses to keep track of, or anything
that passes for a calendar. At work I use the Thunderbird calendar which gives
me an alert so I can disappear before tedious meetings.

She liked the PDA when it worked reliably. But, when ActiveSync
started throwing fits and she could no longer keep a backup on
her laptop, she decided it wasn't worth the effort/risk.

I used to keep my address book on a PDA (not trusting an email
client as email is, by definition, on an "accessible" machine!).
But, as I moved away from snail mail and telephone contacts,
the utility dwindled. Now, I have a backup of the PDA on one
of my NetBSD boxes but, for the most part, don't fret the
street addresses, birthdates, driving directions, etc. that
are stored therein.

I've saved the PDA's, though, as they will eventually be used as
little BT "terminals" (small touch screen, convenient to keep
on a coffee table to interact with the automation system!).
Silly to try to *build* something in that form factor, cost, etc.

I have one TINY cell phone (WiFi/BT) that I will carry, from time
to time, to use as a portable terminal when interacting with diagnostic
services on certain devices. Tiny display is more convenient than
carrying a laptop for that purpose. (and, the diagnostic services
aren't written expecting bountiful display resources! :)

On 01/16/2016 12:23 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
We've bought a variety of merchandise from home goods, electronics,
medical supplies. but not much clothing. I just checked and I've placed
140 orders with 1 to 8 items, every one perfect.

That's my experience but I have had a couple of problems, all of which
were resolved immediately. I don't order much clothing. One of my
returns was a pair of motorcycle gloves. I ordered XXXL iirc but XXXL in
Pakistan means suitable for Minnie Mouse. However I'd had the same
problem at the brick and mortar bike stores in town before ordering from
Amazon. I finally found a pair of leather gloves I could get my paws
into at the hardware store. Not very stylish but they work.

On 1/16/2016 1:39 PM, rbowman wrote:
On 01/16/2016 11:41 AM, Don Y wrote:
In each case, we've invested as much time as if we'd driven to
a local store, HANDLED the items ourselves to verify they are
exactly what we want, then driven home.

You've had a much different experience than I. I ordered three Photon
Microlights. Two were genuine but the third was a Chinese knockoff. It worked
but the LED color was bluer. I emailed Amazon and they refunded the price, told
me to keep the light. There was something that I returned but I can't remember
what it was. It was painless though. Get the RGA online, print the label, slap
it on the box, and throw it into the FedEx bin on my way to work.

I'm not claiming they were reluctant to accept the returns! But,
rather, that I *had* to make returns! I've now invested in a "shopping
experience" (finding the devices, ordering them, WAITING for delivery;
then having to UNDO all of these actions) -- with nothing to show for it!

I've just wasted my time and calendar time THINKING that I had "found"
the item that I wanted.

At a brick and mortar, I can see *THE* item that I will be taking home
with me. If it is incorrect or obviously defective, I can pick up
another. If I notice lots of defective items in that lot, I can
suspect that I might be UNHAPPY with this purchase, down the road.

If I walk into a HF, I can hold the utility knife I'm thinking of buying in
my hand and decide if I like the "feel". I can examine the fabrication
to decide if its shoddy or quality workmanship. I can test the edge of
the blade to see if it is nominally sharp or TRULY sharp (can't test its
hardness without damaging it). Then, evaluate the price and my expected
usage of *this* utility knife to decide if I want to complete the
transaction and live with the consequences.

Buy the same/cimilar knife online and the process starts *after*
it arrives at my doorstep. I've made *a* selection (don't order 5 different
styles to "try in the comfort of your own home") and now waited. With
no guarantee that the purchase will be over when it arrives. Indeed,
the return process may just be starting! :

That's two instances I remember out of many orders. The UPS driver knows me
very well. This week I got 4 separate deliveries. LR44 batteries, 2016
batteries, a Silky Gomboy pruning saw, and 12 Clif Mojo bars. The batteries
were Everready and much cheaper than available locally, as were the bars. The
Silky would have been a special order.

From your past comments, you probably don't have a lot of LOCAL options
to buy those things? In a city of half a million -- in a metro area
of a million -- we have a fair bit more "local choices", I suspect.

[This is what I miss about Chitown and New England; even with the
1M here, its nothing compared to either of those areas! Heck, I could
visit the manufacturers, there!]

On 1/16/2016 1:30 PM, rbowman wrote:
On 01/15/2016 11:06 PM, Don Y wrote:
The BIG advantage to brick and mortars is you can actually *see*
what you are buying and don't have to rely on some dweeb to put
the *right* item in the box!

Perhaps where you live. In a town of 50,000 finding something to see is a
chore or the price is ridiculous. I bought an Omron strapless HRM late last
year. The only one I could find in town was $50 at Walmart. The same item was
$25 from Amazon.

"A town of" is misleading. I grew up in a town of 20,000 -- the high school
sat in the middle of a corn field. But, in a metro area of some several
MILLION! In the time it took me to drive to high school, I could have headed
off for any of the surrounding "cities".

My worst experience was after I bought a car without a radio. It was a new
model so the dash kit was also a new design. I went to the leading car stereo
store in town and selected a radio. The salesman said they didn't have the kit
and would give me a call. Okay. A couple of days later, he calls to say there
isn't a kit but they might be able to modify one. Meanwhile, I'd been on a
Toyota forum and gave him the manufacturer and part number. It was a Metra kit,
one of the major providers. He said he'd order it from the his supplier and it
should be delivered in three days. Okay. Three days later, I called. The
shipment had arrived with no kit. He would try to order it from Spokane. Okay.
Two days later, the Spokane delivery arrived, no kit.

I thanked him for his trouble through clenched teeth, went home, and ordered
the radio, dash kit, and harness from Amazon. Two days later there was a pile
of boxes on my deck when I got home from work and I installed the radio.

That's how it runs for most things around here and it isn't only Amazon. I went
to a local archery shop looking for glue on target points. They're mostly into
compound bows, not traditional archery. The guy said he could order them for
me, but I could find them on the internet as easily as he could.

Back to books: I went into the B&N store looking for a title and she said she
could order it and it would be a week or two at the full list price. I ordered
it from B&N online for 10% less and free delivery to my door.

I really, really try to support the local brick and mortar stores but I'm
starting to think they all have a death wish.

I feel sorry for them. Many folks use them as "showrooms" and do their
purchases online (clearly not fair to the B&M as they've had to maintain
showroom floor space, not WAREHOUSE floorspace). OTOH, what they *should*
be touting is service and the immediacy of acquiring *the* product
sought (not the *hoped for* product ORDERED).

The pants I mentioned that SWMBO received from Amazon, upthread, were
originally purchased at a local B&M. I buy my jeans there (certain
sizes aren't easy to find elsewhere) and was always impressed with the
service and knowledge of their sales staff.

Sure as hell, SWMBO was *tickled* when thy pointed her at *exactly*
what she was looking for and worked to find the best fit, etc.

"Great! I'll take them! Can I get two more pairs? And, maybe
another pair in this other color, same size?"

"We'll have to order them in from one of our other stores."

"No problem! I can only wear one pair at a time! When will
they be in?"

"Thursday" (that day being saturday) "we'll call when they arrive"

Thursday comes. No call -- yay or nay. Call THEM on friday.
"Oh, the manager is out of the store, today. I'll leave a message
and have her get back to you tomorrow."

You can see where this eventually ended up with NOTHING after two
weeks of waiting!

"OK, we know which make/model/color you want; let's just order
from Amazon!"

Wait a week for Amazon to deliver them. Then notice they are
two different sizes and look as if they'd been worn for weeks
(lots of wear at the cuffs).

Go through the effort of packaging them up, getting the UPS shipping
label printed, dropping off at the UPS office by the library
(so we don't have to worry about when the UPS guy will show up at
our door for them), wait (and remember to check for!) for the credit
on the charge card...

Then, go to Target and buy the same pants off the shelf -- after
trying on BOTH pairs!

On 01/16/2016 11:49 AM, Don Y wrote:
We don't know anyone who uses an eReader. We can try B&N to see if the
*concept* is something she can accept. But, would still need to
see what the relative differences are between different products
and manufacturers. E.g., the little nook that my friend had would
be VERY disappointing (poor contrast, flimsy, etc).

afaik, BestBuy and Staples both carry the Kindle line. BestBuy may have
carried the Nook but I think they dropped it. B&N dropped the ball on
that one.

I don't know about the current generation but one thing that put me off
initially was the flash as the electrophoretic display refreshes. Flash
isn't quite the word since the display goes black. It's 500 msec, if
that long but it is noticeable when you first use an ereader. Like new
shoes, you get used to it. After all turning a physical page takes time
but we're used to that.

On 1/16/2016 2:13 PM, rbowman wrote:
On 01/16/2016 11:49 AM, Don Y wrote:
We don't know anyone who uses an eReader. We can try B&N to see if the
*concept* is something she can accept. But, would still need to
see what the relative differences are between different products
and manufacturers. E.g., the little nook that my friend had would
be VERY disappointing (poor contrast, flimsy, etc).

afaik, BestBuy and Staples both carry the Kindle line. BestBuy may have carried
the Nook but I think they dropped it. B&N dropped the ball on that one.

We sometimes visit OfficeMax (staples) so that's what I had in mind.
I tend to buy my thumb drives and toner carts there -- when I can
find a sale.

I don't know about the current generation but one thing that put me off
initially was the flash as the electrophoretic display refreshes. Flash isn't
quite the word since the display goes black. It's 500 msec, if that long but it
is noticeable when you first use an ereader. Like new shoes, you get used to
it. After all turning a physical page takes time but we're used to that.

Yes, I noticed that on my friend's nook. "Disturbing". Whether or not
it becomes *annoying* is a personal issue.

I've noticed some similar reaction with many of the new LED traffic
lights, here. Not sure if it is a deliberate feature (to draw
attention to the "change") or a visual artifact of the implementation.

(sigh) I guess I'd best get dressed for this "memorial service"...

On 01/16/2016 01:41 PM, Don Y wrote:
Mine is lined with bookshelves (technical/reference literature).
I don't borrow "books" from the library (just DVD's).


So are mine, but most of them could be tossed. otoh, you never know when
you might need a 1989 National Semiconductor TTL reference book. The
manual lasted longer than the company.

rbowman wrote:
On 01/16/2016 01:41 PM, Don Y wrote:
Mine is lined with bookshelves (technical/reference literature).
I don't borrow "books" from the library (just DVD's).


So are mine, but most of them could be tossed. otoh, you never know when
you might need a 1989 National Semiconductor TTL reference book. The
manual lasted longer than the company.

Those reference is on the 'net these days. We don't like lending books
we have. Some of them returned with some missing pages. Some of them
were never returned.

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 1/16/2016 1:03 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 1/15/2016 9:19 PM, rbowman wrote:
On 01/15/2016 12:10 PM, Don Y wrote:
Thanks, Susan, I'll chase down the links and see if it helps me
sort out the "mess". I suspect SWMBO won't be happy with *any*
of these options ("Why can't I just have a BOOK??!")

300 books in a Kindle are very easy to dust... And she'll have enough
room on
the shelves for knick knacks rather than trying to stuff books in two
deep and
make structural improvements when the shelves start to sag too badly.

I repeat, she's only looking for this to read LIBRARY BOOKS.
You don't have to store -- or DUST -- books that are only
in your house for a couple of weeks! :


Sounds like you should stick with real books then. No sense spending
money for the reader and then buying books if she is only going to read
books from the local library. Both Nook and Amazon prime have freebies,
but mostly older books. If she is reading two books a month from the
local free library that could translate to $20 a month to buy them.

In your case, I'd borrow a reader from a friend for a couple of hours to
see if she would like to handle it at all. Or stop at a Barnes & Noble
store to handle one. It has to be her choice if she is going to like
it. From things I've read and heard over the past couple of years, the
split is maybe 80-20 on the like/dislike.

eReader is for portability. Tablets, iPADs can read as well. ePUB
library can be at home in the desk top or NAS

On 01/16/2016 02:04 PM, Don Y wrote:
"A town of" is misleading. I grew up in a town of 20,000 -- the high
school
sat in the middle of a corn field. But, in a metro area of some several
MILLION! In the time it took me to drive to high school, I could have
headed
off for any of the surrounding "cities".

Technically Missoula is a first class city. The only larger city in
Montana is Billings, 340 miles to the east. Then there's Spokane, 200
miles to the west, or Boise, 370 miles south.

If you can't find it 'in town' you're not likely to drive to a nearby
city. 25 years ago I would go over to Spokane but in the last two
decades the big box stores have come to town, for better or worse. Now a
trip to REI is a short walk from work, not a 400 mile trek. Even at that
the selection is limited compared to the big city stores.

On 01/16/2016 01:52 PM, Don Y wrote:
From your past comments, you probably don't have a lot of LOCAL options
to buy those things? In a city of half a million -- in a metro area
of a million -- we have a fair bit more "local choices", I suspect.

Well, we do have a Harbor Freight What more could you want? And HF
definitely is a place where I want to hold and interview the merchandise.

The basics are here; just don't get off the beaten track. Or bring your
own tube of vaseline if you're looking for a HDMI cable or such.

Large metros have both better selections and better prices. I don't care
that much for the company but even for something like the new Cabelas in
town, my gut impression from a quick walk through was it wasn't as well
stocked as the one in Glendale.

Even that is a case in point. I bought a Kershaw knife that was labeled
as 'reversible' for $70. Of course with the blister pack you can't tell
much but when I got home I found 'reversible' meant changing the clip
for point up or point down carry in your right hand pocket. So I hit the
internet to see if there was a left handed model. Turns out there isn't
but I saw it on Amazon for $38.13. So it meant a trip back to Cabelas,
on the wrong side of town, to get my $70 back.

I don't know if it would be cheaper in Glendale. I've never found
Cabelas to be very competitive.

On 1/16/2016 7:15 PM, rbowman wrote:
On 01/16/2016 01:41 PM, Don Y wrote:
Mine is lined with bookshelves (technical/reference literature).
I don't borrow "books" from the library (just DVD's).

So are mine, but most of them could be tossed. otoh, you never know when you
might need a 1989 National Semiconductor TTL reference book. The manual lasted
longer than the company.

No, I don't keep paper copies of databooks. I've been chasing down
PDF versions of anything like that which may be needed for legacy
support and archiving them.

But, I *do* keep references like the TeX books, various language manuals,
The Unicode Standard, CRC, Graphics algorithms, Knuth, Stevens, Comer, etc.
Things that I'll want to pick up and thumb to find a particular reference
or take off to a quiet corner to refresh my memory.

There are a select few of my school textbooks (mostly the Math ones).
I have the "notes" for most of the other classes stored in a box in
the garage (many of the courses didn't have books -- yet. E.g.,
my freshman AI course was a bunch of photocopied sheets in a paper
binder that later became Winston's _Artificial Intelligence_ text).

On 01/16/2016 08:33 PM, Don Y wrote:
But, I *do* keep references like the TeX books, various language manuals,
The Unicode Standard, CRC, Graphics algorithms, Knuth, Stevens, Comer, etc.
Things that I'll want to pick up and thumb to find a particular reference
or take off to a quiet corner to refresh my memory.

Even some of those could use some pruning. I've got a good collection of
Perl books but the question is if I'm ever going to use Perl again. Then
there is the J++ book, if you want to talk about dead and gone.

On 1/13/2016 11:17 AM, Don Y wrote:
SWMBO is complaining that the library is turning more and more to
ebooks (do away with the brick&mortar facilities and let amazon
act as the "library" -- some sort of contract they've hammered out).

She's not keen on giving up look/feel of paper. But, figures there's
no other option for some of these titles (if library has it in *any*
form, they will not process a request to find a "paper copy" at some
OTHER library in the next town, etc.)

I've moved much of my technical library to electronic form (simply
can't afford to keep all that paper on shelves, here!) and do so with
a "tablet PC". It gives me a decent screen size (~12") so that I can
view typical 8.5x11 pages/sheets in full size (assuming there is a half
inch margin on the page -- which the display doesn't need to reproduce!).

Also gives me color, the ability to make annotations with the pen,
support for external media, non-proprietary file formats AND other
utilities -- things that aren't usually present in an eReader (which
tries to be smaller, lighter and run for long periods off battery).

I offered to build her an identical machine but she's not keen on
the size (she's used to reading paperbacks or hard-bound editions
which typically don't have/need the larger page size that the materials
I read require). And, the things she reads tend not to have illustrations,
charts, "color", etc.

So, anyone with a fair bit of first-hand experience willing to share
observations as to what they like/dislike about *their* eReader
(make/model)? ISTR at least one unit only allowed you to put
materials onto it via a wireless link -- to a *vendor*! I'm not
sure how that will work with the library's offerings. Nor how
you can later "backup" those acquisitions onto some other media
(lest your eReader *fail*).

[These are all issues that my "solution" avoided...]


You want a tablet with a fairly high-resolution screen for an e-book
reader.

I've been using a 1280 x 800 8" tablet and it's adequate for e-books
(189 PPI) but I'd prefer a 300 ppi or greater. It was $160. LG Gpad 8.0
II. I like the fact that it has a full size USB and a Micro USB port.