On 3/16/2010 10:12 AM, dpb wrote:
Swingman wrote:

And a separate circuit for every stationary tool unless you're a
production shop w/ an employee at every workstation continuously through
a shift is _WAY_ over the top overkill...

For a home, casual-use workshop as I gather this is, one or perhaps two
30A 240V circuits will be enough w/ outlets judiciously placed for the
major equipment you now have and some consideration given to what you
think you may want to add in the foreseeable future. You, as an
individual can never be using more than one at a time

just a small caveat to this statement, as I had to consider this in my
shop. Both a given power tool, perhaps the table saw, and the dust
collection system will probably be on the same time. Be sure to add both
loads together to make sure a circuit is large enough. Oh, and don't
forget that your air compressor will more than likely kick on at this
inopportune time as well.

Harvey

Dave In Texas wrote:
"Swingman" wrote in message
...

You really don't need to install a disconnect for a dedicated
circuit to each machine in your home shop.

When I wired my garshop I did two separate 240v circuits; one runs
the dust collector and the other the table saw and a 5hp compressor
(neither of which ever runs congruently). How often do you run more
than one device at a time?

The compressor is the one I'd consider being hardwired by itself. There are
a lot of times when I'm using another tool while the compressor is running.

--

-Mike-

eclipsme wrote:
On 3/16/2010 10:12 AM, dpb wrote:
Swingman wrote:

And a separate circuit for every stationary tool unless you're a
production shop w/ an employee at every workstation continuously through
a shift is _WAY_ over the top overkill...

For a home, casual-use workshop as I gather this is, one or perhaps two
30A 240V circuits will be enough w/ outlets judiciously placed for the
major equipment you now have and some consideration given to what you
think you may want to add in the foreseeable future. You, as an
individual can never be using more than one at a time

just a small caveat to this statement, as I had to consider this in my
shop. Both a given power tool, perhaps the table saw, and the dust
collection system will probably be on the same time. Be sure to add both
loads together to make sure a circuit is large enough. Oh, and don't
forget that your air compressor will more than likely kick on at this
inopportune time as well.

Uhhh, _excuse_ me??? The part you so judiciously snipped continued...

"so, other than the one tool, the only other loads active simultaneously
will be the potential DC and maybe a compressor."

For 30A/240V, 10A each will be in the neighborhood of 3hp FLA motors. I
submit for the home shop dude just getting going as is OP he'll have far
more than enough...

If'en he's going w/ 5hp PM and an Oneida central DC, well ok but I don't
get that feeling here, do you???

--

On 3/16/2010 11:53 AM, Bill wrote:
dpb wrote:
Swingman wrote:
On 3/16/2010 9:12 AM, dpb wrote:

And a separate circuit for every stationary tool unless you're a
production shop w/ an employee at every workstation continuously
through
a shift is _WAY_ over the top overkill...

There may be one advantage (albeit slight) to wiring a "dedicated
circuit" for a stationary tool, particularly in shops in "garages"
... a "dedicated circuit" is exempt from being GFCI protected in many
locales.

At one time in the early days of GFCI, it was worth doing so as to
not have to deal with nuisance trips, which are no longer the problem
they once were.

That _is_ one of the later NEC items I do tend to ignore in
non-wet/indoor locations like a shop...probably the most common one ,
in fact.

Bill should, of course, follow local Code requirements (disclaimer )


Having recently purchased my home, I think it is the case that our local
code (central IN) requires GFCI on outlets within a short distance of a
sink/bath except older homes may be grandfathered out of this
requirement. However, needless to say, I am not an expert.

Besides kitchens and bathroom, most locales require GFCI protected
circuits in "garages" also ... a place where you, strangely enough, find
most woodworking "shops" these days.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Lew Hodgett wrote:
snip


I'm not going to get into a ****ing contest over a c'bkr that costs
less than $10, but dedicating a 2P-30 c'bkr for each 240V load not
only simplifies the installation but also allows you to isolate a
problem load without affecting other loads.

....
Lew



When the idea of adding an additional (flip) switch to each 240v circuit
was suggested that was one of my concerns--that it was something else to
go wrong, which would in turn would make it harder to isolate a problem.

I've got an inexpensive voltimeter which has worked fine for working
with 12v in the car, but I'm not sure whether it would be prudent to
plug it into a 240v outlet. I won't say I'm skeered, but I was thinking
about using it with gloves! : ) I sure believe I should test any
outlet before I plug a new $1000 tool into it.

Bill

On 3/16/2010 3:35 PM, Bill wrote:
Lew Hodgett wrote:

I'm not going to get into a ****ing contest over a c'bkr that costs
less than $10, but dedicating a 2P-30 c'bkr for each 240V load not
only simplifies the installation but also allows you to isolate a
problem load without affecting other loads.

...
Lew



When the idea of adding an additional (flip) switch to each 240v circuit
was suggested that was one of my concerns--that it was something else to
go wrong, which would in turn would make it harder to isolate a problem.

This is a different issue than Lew's quote above.

I could have read his replied to post wrong, but it looks like Lew
"assumed" that I was talking about using two single poles c'bkrs in
place of a single two pole circuit breaker; and likewise when he was
assuming that you can't insert a 2 pole circuit breaker into any two
slots in any panel designed for using half height c'bkrs.

... if it is what it reads like, he is wrong in both assumptions. If
not, then I apologize in advance for reading it wrong.

I've got an inexpensive voltimeter which has worked fine for working
with 12v in the car, but I'm not sure whether it would be prudent to
plug it into a 240v outlet. I won't say I'm skeered, but I was thinking
about using it with gloves! : ) I sure believe I should test any
outlet before I plug a new $1000 tool into it.

Don't know about your voltmeter, but ones that can be used for testing
all voltages are very inexpensive and handy to have it you're going to
be doing your own electrical work.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Mar 16, 3:35*pm, Bill wrote:
Lew Hodgett wrote:

snip



I'm not going to get into a ****ing contest over a c'bkr that costs
less than $10, but dedicating a 2P-30 c'bkr for each 240V load not
only simplifies the installation but also allows you to isolate a
problem load without affecting other loads.

...
Lew

When the idea of adding an additional (flip) switch to each 240v circuit
was suggested that was one of my concerns--that it was something else to
go wrong, which would in turn would make it harder to isolate a problem.

I've got an inexpensive voltimeter which has worked fine for working
with 12v in the car, but I'm not sure whether it would be prudent to
plug it into a 240v outlet. *I won't say I'm skeered, but I was thinking
about using it with gloves! : ) *I sure believe I should test any
outlet before I plug a new $1000 tool into it.

A 240V circuit is simply two 120V circuits on opposite sides of the
transformer. Nothing is further than 120V from ground.

On 3/16/2010 3:50 PM, Bill wrote:
Swingman wrote:

Besides kitchens and bathroom, most locales require GFCI protected
circuits in "garages" also ... a place where you, strangely enough,
find most woodworking "shops" these days.


iwires post from "mike_holts" forum, copied and pasted below
(it makes interesting reading...). --Bill



I will post the code rule for GFCIs in basements below but the short
version is 15 and 20 amp 120 volt receptacles must have GFCI protection.

I trust you are not interpreting that to mean that ALL 15 and 20 amp 120
volt receptacles must have GFCI protection?

BTW, what's a "basement"?

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Swingman wrote:
On 3/16/2010 3:35 PM, Bill wrote:
Lew Hodgett wrote:

I'm not going to get into a ****ing contest over a c'bkr that costs
less than $10, but dedicating a 2P-30 c'bkr for each 240V load not
only simplifies the installation but also allows you to isolate a
problem load without affecting other loads.

...
Lew



When the idea of adding an additional (flip) switch to each 240v circuit
was suggested that was one of my concerns--that it was something else to
go wrong, which would in turn would make it harder to isolate a problem.


This is a different issue than Lew's quote above.

yes, I know, but I thought it was related and I was curious about the
value of additional switches.


Don't know about your voltmeter, but ones that can be used for testing
all voltages are very inexpensive and handy to have it you're going to
be doing your own electrical work.

Thanks, that's what I wanted to hear. I'm going to have to learn to use
mine "better" before I plug it into high voltage...

Bill

On 3/16/2010 4:19 PM, Bill wrote:
Swingman wrote:

Don't know about your voltmeter, but ones that can be used for testing
all voltages are very inexpensive and handy to have it you're going to
be doing your own electrical work.

Thanks, that's what I wanted to hear. I'm going to have to learn to use
mine "better" before I plug it into high voltage...

Only 120v use, but I carry one of these in the toolkit in my truck at
all times ... and in my pocket during electrical inspections in houses
I'm building. Mostly to insure that circuits are live and wired
correctly, but also to verify to an inspector that a circuit is indeed
GFCI protected (you don't always know where the GFCI receptacle upstream
is located)

http://www.tripplite.com/EN/products...xtmodelID=3941

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Bill" wrote

When the idea of adding an additional (flip) switch to each 240v circuit
was suggested that was one of my concerns--that it was something else to
go wrong, which would in turn would make it harder to isolate a problem.

If you understand the layout and how to use a a multimeter, finding the
problem is pretty straightforward.

I've got an inexpensive voltimeter which has worked fine for working with
12v in the car, but I'm not sure whether it would be prudent to plug it
into a 240v outlet. I won't say I'm skeered, but I was thinking about
using it with gloves! : ) I sure believe I should test any
outlet before I plug a new $1000 tool into it.

Again, get an inexpensive multimeter. They are worth their weight in gold.
They have settings for 110 and 220 volts.

When I moved into my present house, an idiot friend of the previous owner
assured me the dryer outlet was OK. It wasn't wired up when we first looked
at it. I told my wife I was going to check it out, but she did not think it
was important. She started the dryer and quickly became alarmed. I don't
really recall exactly what happened but my honey assured me that the bad
outlet was doing something mean to her dryer and she wanted it fixed RIGHT
NOW!

I checked it out with my multimeter and referenced an electrical book I had.
Sure enough, it was wired incorrectly. They just stuck the wires in there
in a random order. I corrected that problem by measuring across the various
wires until I found the right combination. Then I wired the outlet
appropriately. The dryer worked fine.

But it didn't stop there. The facuets to the washer leaked. So I had to
replace them. I found the best quality faucets out there and put them in.
They have worked fine since. I don't know where they found those junk
faucets that was on there before.

Cuz when you move into a new house, the missus wants her things fixed first.

"Swingman" wrote in message
...
On 3/16/2010 4:19 PM, Bill wrote:
Swingman wrote:

Don't know about your voltmeter, but ones that can be used for testing
all voltages are very inexpensive and handy to have it you're going to
be doing your own electrical work.

Thanks, that's what I wanted to hear. I'm going to have to learn to use
mine "better" before I plug it into high voltage...

Only 120v use, but I carry one of these in the toolkit in my truck at all
times ... and in my pocket during electrical inspections in houses I'm
building. Mostly to insure that circuits are live and wired correctly, but
also to verify to an inspector that a circuit is indeed GFCI protected
(you don't always know where the GFCI receptacle upstream is located)

http://www.tripplite.com/EN/products...xtmodelID=3941



Hmm...I have one of those too. The fine print at the link says "not for use
with Ground Fault Interrupt -GFI outlets".
So you show an outlet is GFCI protected by checking another outlet
downstream (I've read that a GFCI breaker
is often put on the first outlet off a line)? So, I take it that of the
device an outlet properly grounded, and it's not directly grounded, then it
must have been done upstream with GFCI? GFCI is one of those things I need
to read up on...

Thank you,
Bill


--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Lee Michaels" wrote in message
...

"Bill" wrote

When the idea of adding an additional (flip) switch to each 240v circuit
was suggested that was one of my concerns--that it was something else to
go wrong, which would in turn would make it harder to isolate a problem.

If you understand the layout and how to use a a multimeter, finding the
problem is pretty straightforward.

I've got an inexpensive voltimeter which has worked fine for working with
12v in the car, but I'm not sure whether it would be prudent to plug it
into a 240v outlet. I won't say I'm skeered, but I was thinking about
using it with gloves! : ) I sure believe I should test any
outlet before I plug a new $1000 tool into it.

Again, get an inexpensive multimeter. They are worth their weight in
gold. They have settings for 110 and 220 volts.

I have a Radio Shack "8-Range Multitester " (bought new in 1979) : AC/DC
Voltage .... 15V, 150V, 1000V
This is the same thing you are talking about, right?

Bill

"Bill" wrote

I have a Radio Shack "8-Range Multitester " (bought new in 1979) : AC/DC
Voltage .... 15V, 150V, 1000V
This is the same thing you are talking about, right?

There are better ones out there, but for home handyman use, that will do
just fine. I went to electronics school long time ago and used the old
vacuum tube models. Those things were heavy and hot. But digital
electronics have made these things available to everybody for a modest cost.

On 3/16/2010 8:49 PM, Bill wrote:
wrote in message
...
On 3/16/2010 4:19 PM, Bill wrote:
Swingman wrote:

Don't know about your voltmeter, but ones that can be used for testing
all voltages are very inexpensive and handy to have it you're going to
be doing your own electrical work.

Thanks, that's what I wanted to hear. I'm going to have to learn to use
mine "better" before I plug it into high voltage...

Only 120v use, but I carry one of these in the toolkit in my truck at all
times ... and in my pocket during electrical inspections in houses I'm
building. Mostly to insure that circuits are live and wired correctly, but
also to verify to an inspector that a circuit is indeed GFCI protected
(you don't always know where the GFCI receptacle upstream is located)

http://www.tripplite.com/EN/products...xtmodelID=3941



Hmm...I have one of those too. The fine print at the link says "not for use
with Ground Fault Interrupt -GFI outlets".

Sorry, I grabbed the wrong link. This is the one I have:

http://www.mcmelectronics.com/produc...LAID=220252111

And a cheaper one that does the same thing:

http://inspectusa.com/receptaclegfci...ors-p-123.html

The GFCI outlet/receptacle itself (it has its own, built-in test circuit).

The other one is used to test that same built-in test circuit in the
GFCI receptacle, but FROM those receptacles which are on the
"downstream" side (those coming off the "load" terminals on the GFCI
receptacle).

So you show an outlet is GFCI protected by checking another outlet
downstream (I've read that a GFCI breaker
is often put on the first outlet off a line)? So, I take it that of the
device an outlet properly grounded, and it's not directly grounded, then it
must have been done upstream with GFCI? GFCI is one of those things I need
to read up on...

You can use a GFCI receptacle in an outlet by itself, or use it as the
first one inline in a circuit (power in connected to the "line"
terminals; power out connected to the "Load" terminals) to protect the
other receptacles "downstream" of it.

Read up on it ....

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On 3/16/2010 9:15 PM, Bill wrote:
"Lee wrote in message
...

"Bill" wrote

When the idea of adding an additional (flip) switch to each 240v
circuit
was suggested that was one of my concerns--that it was something
else to
go wrong, which would in turn would make it harder to isolate a
problem.

If you understand the layout and how to use a a multimeter, finding the
problem is pretty straightforward.

I've got an inexpensive voltimeter which has worked fine for
working with
12v in the car, but I'm not sure whether it would be prudent to plug it
into a 240v outlet. I won't say I'm skeered, but I was thinking about
using it with gloves! : ) I sure believe I should test any
outlet before I plug a new $1000 tool into it.

Again, get an inexpensive multimeter. They are worth their weight in
gold. They have settings for 110 and 220 volts.

I have a Radio Shack "8-Range Multitester " (bought new in 1979) : AC/DC
Voltage .... 15V, 150V, 1000V
This is the same thing you are talking about, right?

That'll work ... just make sure you set it higher than the expected
voltage your are attempting to test.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Bill wrote:


Hmm...I have one of those too. The fine print at the link says "not
for use with Ground Fault Interrupt -GFI outlets".
So you show an outlet is GFCI protected by checking another outlet
downstream (I've read that a GFCI breaker
is often put on the first outlet off a line)? So, I take it that of
the device an outlet properly grounded, and it's not directly
grounded, then it must have been done upstream with GFCI? GFCI is
one of those things I need to read up on...


You need to run that question past again Bill - it makes no sense as
written. I'll take a stab at what I think you might be asking. Your
outlets (devices) are always "directly" grounded - even if ground fault
protected. GFCI's simply separate the neutral from the ground at the device
so they can monitor leakage. The device is however, still very much
grounded, and all downstream outlets are grounded in the usual manner, which
is to say that they are installed just like any other outlet which is not
ground fault protected.

--

-Mike-

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...


You need to run that question past again Bill - it makes no sense as
written.

Sorry about that.


I'll take a stab at what I think you might be asking. Your
outlets (devices) are always "directly" grounded - even if ground fault
protected. GFCI's simply separate the neutral from the ground at the
device so they can monitor leakage. The device is however, still very
much grounded, and all downstream outlets are grounded in the usual
manner, which is to say that they are installed just like any other outlet
which is not ground fault protected.


Thank you! Between you and Swingman, you helped me understand
that a lot better. So the GFCI at one outlet is able to monitor the
"leakage" downstream...


Meter question: Understanding this will ease my concerns about my tester.
How come one can hook it up to two hot 120 lines (240v) and NOT generate
a meltdown in the unit? Big resisters? BTW, I have read some of the "one
hand
in the back pocket" sort of safety suggestions.

Bill




--

-Mike-

"Bill" wrote in message
...
Meter question: Understanding this will ease my concerns about my tester.
How come one can hook it up to two hot 120 lines (240v) and NOT generate
a meltdown in the unit? Big resisters? BTW, I have read some of the
"one hand
in the back pocket" sort of safety suggestions.

Bill


I just took the back of the meter off and check and the meter has an 850k
resister behind the 1000v input socket.

Wikipedia say P (watts) = V^2 / R where V is the voltage and R is the
resistance (in Ohms). BTW, Wikipedia seems
like a great place to do additonal reading on the matter....

Does that mean that for 240v, my meter is absorbing 240^2 / 850k = .0678
Watts (of "heat"), or
is this even close (in an RMS sense)?

Bill

"Bill" wrote

Meter question: Understanding this will ease my concerns about my tester.
How come one can hook it up to two hot 120 lines (240v) and NOT generate
a meltdown in the unit? Big resisters? BTW, I have read some of the
"one hand
in the back pocket" sort of safety suggestions.

You apparently have a 1000 volt tester. It has the internal circuitry to
handle the load as long as it is set for the proper voltage. The important
thing is to just touch what you need tested with the test leads. You don't
use your fingers or other parts of your anatomy. You use the test device in
exactly the way it was intended to be used.

One old techie trick is to place one lead on one wire (or whatever) and
slowly move the other lead in very deliberately. This is to make sure you
don't touch anything other than the lead to the wires. Remember, people
don't get zapped from using the equipment properly. It usually happens when
they brush up against something while being a little too casual with how
they move their hands.

It is not that different from what can happen with a table saw. You never
take your eyes off of it and be very safety conscious. I should also point
out that getting zapped with the 220 voltage is a much bigger shock and more
serious than the regular 110 volts. DAMHIKT. So do exercise due caution when
working with the higher voltages.

But you are not going to get shocked by using the test equipment peoperly.
It is when you subsitute body parts for the test leads is when you get into
trouble. And have some kind of reference material handy so you know what the
voltage needs to be from one point to another. It it all tests out OK, your
machines will be happy.

"Lee Michaels" wrote in message
...

"Bill" wrote

Meter question: Understanding this will ease my concerns about my
tester.
How come one can hook it up to two hot 120 lines (240v) and NOT generate
a meltdown in the unit? Big resisters? BTW, I have read some of the
"one hand
in the back pocket" sort of safety suggestions.

You apparently have a 1000 volt tester. It has the internal circuitry to
handle the load as long as it is set for the proper voltage. The important
thing is to just touch what you need tested with the test leads. You don't
use your fingers or other parts of your anatomy. You use the test device
in exactly the way it was intended to be used.

Thank you for the safety reminders--I take them seriously.
I can't believe that they sell this equiptment to just anyone that walks in
off
the street---doesn't SawStop make a voltimeter??? ; )

Bill

"Lee Michaels" wrote in message
...
It is not that different from what can happen with a table saw. You never
take your eyes off of it and be very safety conscious. I should also point
out that getting zapped with the 220 voltage is a much bigger shock and
more serious than the regular 110 volts. DAMHIKT. So do exercise due
caution when working with the higher voltages.


No wonder I'm a GALOOT... : )

Bill

I copied & pasted below from:
http://www.handymanclub.com/Projects....aspx?id=20483
(We've given The HandyMan Club a bad rap here--but they had a decent
article).

I quote:
"When determining where to install a subpanel, be sure to follow the
National Electrical Code (NEC) requirements. In front of the subpanel, you’ll
need free working space that’s 36 in. deep and at least as wide as the
subpanel (or 30 in. wide — whichever is greater). The space above the panel
must be completely open to the structural ceiling (no shelving, etc.), and
the space below must be open to the floor (no lawnmowers, trash cans,
workbenches, etc.)."


Am I to understand from this that if a subpanel is mounted flush on a wall,
that nothing is to be place in FRONT of it (ever)? It comes down to where
it is written: "the space below must be open to the floor"---does that refer
to the space directly below the subpanel or include the 36" in front of it
mentioned earlier. Otherwise, I'd have what--a fire violation?

This may conflict with one of our "valuable space axioms" that Roy, IIRC,
mentioned before.

Just Curious,
Bill

On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 11:30:30 -0500, "Dave In Texas"
wrote:



"Swingman" wrote in message
m...

There is one gotcha to watch for when using a 220 c'bkr in a load center
which, by design, can be used with both full size and mini breakers:

When using these load centers it is possible to insert the full size
220/240v c'bkr into two adjacent slots that are both fed by one hot leg
... the result being that you will get no voltage to the tool whatsoever.

Nothing dangerous will result, but you'll be left scratching your head.

Basically, just be careful when you install a 220/240v c'bkr that you put
it in two adjacent slots where each draws from a different bus. You can do
this visually.

And, I've got three-phase! Which I've never been able to utilize . . .
except once - by stupidity.
12 or 15 years ago I finally got around to putting in a dedicated
circuit for my kitchen refrigerator. Only I plugged that 20 amp single pole
into one leg of the three phase. WOW! You can't believe how bright a 15
watt appliance bulb can get. The freezer fan was the only casualty.
Fortunately I had an appliance repair man that made Sunday house calls.
And, that side-by-side Kenmore lasted 20+ years.

Dave in Houston

TThis sounds like you have a high leg service where one leg is 208
volt to ground.

Mike M

On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 09:36:47 -0500, Swingman wrote:

On 3/16/2010 9:12 AM, dpb wrote:

And a separate circuit for every stationary tool unless you're a
production shop w/ an employee at every workstation continuously through
a shift is _WAY_ over the top overkill...

There may be one advantage (albeit slight) to wiring a "dedicated
circuit" for a stationary tool, particularly in shops in "garages" ... a
"dedicated circuit" is exempt from being GFCI protected in many locales.

At one time in the early days of GFCI, it was worth doing so as to not
have to deal with nuisance trips, which are no longer the problem they
once were.

You may be spot on this. I only do commercial industrial so I'm not
right up on residential but I believe all garage circuits require gfi.
There are exceptions for appliances and dedicated circuits. May be a
drawback garage shops, but I think most repair shops are now required
to have gfi circuits.
Mike M

On 3/16/2010 11:25 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
"Swingman" wrote:

Just for grins, if you get a chance, open up your shop panel and see
if you can move a 2P device ONE space up or down and see if you can
install it.

Of course you can, Lew ... that's what I've been saying the whole time.

Took less than 10 seconds to find this "trouble shooting" tale for the
EXACT problem I was warning Bill to watch out for with some panels that
take half height c'brks:

http://tinyurl.com/ykq5vz6

Things have changed in 18 years ... not all for the good.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On 3/17/2010 1:20 AM, Bill wrote:
I copied& pasted below from:
http://www.handymanclub.com/Projects....aspx?id=20483
(We've given The HandyMan Club a bad rap here--but they had a decent
article).

I quote:
"When determining where to install a subpanel, be sure to follow the
National Electrical Code (NEC) requirements. In front of the subpanel, you’ll
need free working space that’s 36 in. deep and at least as wide as the
subpanel (or 30 in. wide — whichever is greater). The space above the panel
must be completely open to the structural ceiling (no shelving, etc.), and
the space below must be open to the floor (no lawnmowers, trash cans,
workbenches, etc.)."


Am I to understand from this that if a subpanel is mounted flush on a wall,
that nothing is to be place in FRONT of it (ever)? It comes down to where
it is written: "the space below must be open to the floor"---does that refer
to the space directly below the subpanel or include the 36" in front of it
mentioned earlier. Otherwise, I'd have what--a fire violation?


It's a 10-4 that you would have an "electrical code violation",

That said, when the inspector leaves most home owners go ahead and make
a clothes closet out of that "machine room" .... if you now what I mean.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On 3/17/2010 3:32 AM, Mike M wrote:
On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 09:36:47 -0500, wrote:

There may be one advantage (albeit slight) to wiring a "dedicated
circuit" for a stationary tool, particularly in shops in "garages" ... a
"dedicated circuit" is exempt from being GFCI protected in many locales.

At one time in the early days of GFCI, it was worth doing so as to not
have to deal with nuisance trips, which are no longer the problem they
once were.

You may be spot on this. I only do commercial industrial so I'm not
right up on residential but I believe all garage circuits require gfi.
There are exceptions for appliances and dedicated circuits. May be a
drawback garage shops, but I think most repair shops are now required
to have gfi circuits.

We are required in most municipalities where I build to have GFI
protection on all "wet area" receptacles ... this includes bathroom,
utility rooms with sinks, kitchens, garages, sun rooms with drains, and
all exterior receptacles.

We are also required to have AFCI protection on all dwelling bedroom
circuits.

On the latter, I've had homeowners who are selling a home I built when
AFCI wasn't required, or even available, and during the sale process
failed a buyer's third party inspection because lack of AFCI protection,
I've gone back and had the electrical contractor install them at our
cost ... seems like good business, and a prudent thing to do in this
litigious society.

--
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Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Mar 16, 5:42*pm, "Lee Michaels"
wrote:
"Bill" wrote

When the idea of adding an additional (flip) switch to each 240v circuit
was suggested that was one of my concerns--that it was something else to
go wrong, which would in turn would make it harder to isolate a problem..

If you understand the layout and how to use a a multimeter, finding the
problem is pretty straightforward.

I've got an inexpensive voltimeter which has worked fine for working with
12v in the car, but I'm not sure whether it would be prudent to plug it
into a 240v outlet. *I won't say I'm skeered, but I was thinking about
using it with gloves! : ) *I sure believe I should test any
outlet before I plug a new $1000 tool into it.

Again, get an inexpensive multimeter. *They are worth their weight in gold.
They have settings for 110 *and 220 volts.

When I moved into my present house, an idiot friend of the previous owner
assured me the dryer outlet was OK. It wasn't wired up when we first looked
at it. I told my wife I was going to check it out, but she did not think it
was important. She started the dryer and quickly became alarmed. I don't
really recall exactly what happened but my honey assured me that the bad
outlet was doing something mean to her dryer and she wanted it fixed RIGHT
NOW!

I checked it out with my multimeter and referenced an electrical book I had.
Sure enough, it was wired incorrectly. *They just stuck the wires in there
in a random order. I corrected that problem by measuring across the various
wires until I found the right combination. Then I wired the outlet
appropriately. The dryer worked fine.

Many years ago, my MIL was complaining about getting zapped off the
dryer. Thinking I was smart (an EE student, at the time) I grounded
the case of the dryer to the cold water pipe. That took out a 60A
fuse. Oh, my! I took the dryer apart, then the wall outlet. All was
fine there, but the entrance panel had the red and white wires
swapped. They had been living in the house for six months with the
case of the dryer sitting at 120V! The dryer was running off the
other 120V leg. After, she said that things were drying a *lot*
faster.

But it didn't stop there. *The facuets to the washer leaked. So I had to
replace them. *I found the best quality faucets out there and put them in.
They have worked fine since. I don't know where they found those junk
faucets that was on there before.

Contractor specials, no doubt. The same place they found the $.39
outlets.

Cuz when you move into a new house, the missus wants her things fixed first.

Yup. We bought a new house. I don't know why I thought things would
be different.

On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 00:06:36 -0400, the infamous "Bill"
scrawled the following:


"Lee Michaels" wrote in message
.. .
It is not that different from what can happen with a table saw. You never
take your eyes off of it and be very safety conscious. I should also point
out that getting zapped with the 220 voltage is a much bigger shock and
more serious than the regular 110 volts. DAMHIKT. So do exercise due
caution when working with the higher voltages.

No wonder I'm a GALOOT... : )

I don't have the energy for that any more. I've become a
Normanderthal, but I won't give up my ryoba or azebiki or my
Satanleys.

the subject, I -prefer- getting zapped or zinged by 240. It has
enough voltage to throw you off it if need be. When you touch 240, you
KNOW you've been zapped, bygolly. BTW, none of my zaps has been more
than a few milliseconds, and usually through nitrile gloves when
working on a hot circuit. I haven't done any 240V arc welding since
that little power sypply testing incident in Engineering, when I blew
the 50A circuit with my screwdriver. That's one blinding flash, lemme
tell ya. No, I wasn't blushing, it was sunburn. That's my story and
I'm stickin' to it.

--
No matter how cynical you are, it is impossible to keep up.
--Lily Tomlin

On Mar 17, 8:03*am, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 00:06:36 -0400, the infamous "Bill"
scrawled the following:



"Lee Michaels" wrote in message
.. .
It is not that different from what can happen with a table saw. You never
take your eyes off of it and be very safety conscious. I should also point
out that getting zapped with the 220 voltage is a much bigger shock and
more serious than the regular 110 volts. DAMHIKT. So do exercise due
caution when working with the higher voltages.

No wonder I'm a GALOOT... *: )

I don't have the energy for that any more. *I've become a
Normanderthal, but I won't give up my ryoba or azebiki or my
Satanleys.

the subject, I -prefer- getting zapped or zinged by 240. It has
enough voltage to throw you off it if need be. When you touch 240, you
KNOW you've been zapped, bygolly. *BTW, none of my zaps has been more
than a few milliseconds, and usually through nitrile gloves when
working on a hot circuit. I haven't done any 240V arc welding since
that little power sypply testing incident in Engineering, when I blew
the 50A circuit with my screwdriver. That's one blinding flash, lemme
tell ya. No, I wasn't blushing, it was sunburn. That's my story and
I'm stickin' to it.

--
No matter how cynical you are, it is impossible to keep up.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * --Lily Tomlin

Unless you're *really* clever, there is no difference between a zap
off 240V and 120V (in the US). It takes work to get across both
"hots" in a 240V circuit. Don't do that!

On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 06:14:18 -0700 (PDT), the infamous
" scrawled the following:

On Mar 17, 8:03*am, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 00:06:36 -0400, the infamous "Bill"
scrawled the following:



"Lee Michaels" wrote in message
.. .
It is not that different from what can happen with a table saw. You never
take your eyes off of it and be very safety conscious. I should also point
out that getting zapped with the 220 voltage is a much bigger shock and
more serious than the regular 110 volts. DAMHIKT. So do exercise due
caution when working with the higher voltages.

No wonder I'm a GALOOT... *: )

I don't have the energy for that any more. *I've become a
Normanderthal, but I won't give up my ryoba or azebiki or my
Satanleys.

the subject, I -prefer- getting zapped or zinged by 240. It has
enough voltage to throw you off it if need be. When you touch 240, you
KNOW you've been zapped, bygolly. *BTW, none of my zaps has been more
than a few milliseconds, and usually through nitrile gloves when
working on a hot circuit. I haven't done any 240V arc welding since
that little power sypply testing incident in Engineering, when I blew
the 50A circuit with my screwdriver. That's one blinding flash, lemme
tell ya. No, I wasn't blushing, it was sunburn. That's my story and
I'm stickin' to it.

--
No matter how cynical you are, it is impossible to keep up.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * --Lily Tomlin

Unless you're *really* clever, there is no difference between a zap
off 240V and 120V (in the US). It takes work to get across both
"hots" in a 240V circuit. Don't do that!

Y'mean I should quit testing for 240 voltage with my tongue? Oh.
OK.

--
No matter how cynical you are, it is impossible to keep up.
--Lily Tomlin

On Mar 17, 10:31*am, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 06:14:18 -0700 (PDT), the infamous
" scrawled the following:



On Mar 17, 8:03 am, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 00:06:36 -0400, the infamous "Bill"
scrawled the following:

"Lee Michaels" wrote in message
.. .
It is not that different from what can happen with a table saw. You never
take your eyes off of it and be very safety conscious. I should also point
out that getting zapped with the 220 voltage is a much bigger shock and
more serious than the regular 110 volts. DAMHIKT. So do exercise due
caution when working with the higher voltages.

No wonder I'm a GALOOT... : )

I don't have the energy for that any more. I've become a
Normanderthal, but I won't give up my ryoba or azebiki or my
Satanleys.

the subject, I -prefer- getting zapped or zinged by 240. It has
enough voltage to throw you off it if need be. When you touch 240, you
KNOW you've been zapped, bygolly. BTW, none of my zaps has been more
than a few milliseconds, and usually through nitrile gloves when
working on a hot circuit. I haven't done any 240V arc welding since
that little power sypply testing incident in Engineering, when I blew
the 50A circuit with my screwdriver. That's one blinding flash, lemme
tell ya. No, I wasn't blushing, it was sunburn. That's my story and
I'm stickin' to it.

--
No matter how cynical you are, it is impossible to keep up.
--Lily Tomlin

Unless you're *really* clever, there is no difference between a zap
off 240V and 120V (in the US). *It takes work to get across both
"hots" in a 240V circuit. *Don't do that!

Y'mean I should quit testing for 240 voltage with my tongue? *Oh.
* OK.

Yes, that would certainly be a good idea, though I doubt you'd be able
to tell the difference. ;-)

I can see where thats good business. The more people that have
something good to say about how you do business is good for repeat and
referal customers. A good reputation leads to a lot more negotiated
business and being able to sell on quality and fair price instead of
just cheap.

Mike M


On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 07:50:36 -0500, Swingman wrote:

On 3/17/2010 3:32 AM, Mike M wrote:
On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 09:36:47 -0500, wrote:

There may be one advantage (albeit slight) to wiring a "dedicated
circuit" for a stationary tool, particularly in shops in "garages" ... a
"dedicated circuit" is exempt from being GFCI protected in many locales.

At one time in the early days of GFCI, it was worth doing so as to not
have to deal with nuisance trips, which are no longer the problem they
once were.

You may be spot on this. I only do commercial industrial so I'm not
right up on residential but I believe all garage circuits require gfi.
There are exceptions for appliances and dedicated circuits. May be a
drawback garage shops, but I think most repair shops are now required
to have gfi circuits.

We are required in most municipalities where I build to have GFI
protection on all "wet area" receptacles ... this includes bathroom,
utility rooms with sinks, kitchens, garages, sun rooms with drains, and
all exterior receptacles.

We are also required to have AFCI protection on all dwelling bedroom
circuits.

On the latter, I've had homeowners who are selling a home I built when
AFCI wasn't required, or even available, and during the sale process
failed a buyer's third party inspection because lack of AFCI protection,
I've gone back and had the electrical contractor install them at our
cost ... seems like good business, and a prudent thing to do in this
litigious society.

On 3/18/2010 1:03 AM, Lew Hodgett wrote:

A 2P c'bkr has a built in key that prohibits installing the c'bkr in
an improper location.

I basically don't have a problem with what is basically anecdotal the
evidence stated in the article; however, none of it applies to the GE
product line.

You've gone from a blanket statement that it can't be done, to a blanket
statement that it can't be done with a specific brand.

Like I said before, Lew - I have nothing but respect for your knowledge
and experience with electrical matters, but I've personally experienced,
firsthand, that neither of your contentions are entirely correct.

Looks like we'll have to leave it at that ...

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On 3/17/2010 11:17 PM, Swingman wrote:

Sorry you wasted your time by arbitrarily deciding to settle on a
dubious experiment with _one_ panel on a shelf at Lowes to prove your
point.

Lew ... I want to apologize to you for the "tone" in this post and the
direction it's been taking. I regretted the escalation the second I hit
the send button.

Though I have to disagree on this particular issue, I've nothing but the
utmost respect for your knowledge and experience.

mea culpa ...

BTW, this does NOT apply to politics! g,d & r

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Lew Hodgett wrote:

Install 2P-30A branch c'bkr for each 240V stationary tool along with
a 2P-30A, non fused disconnect at (within 10ft) the tool.

I just wished to double-check that this was supposed to be
"Install 2P-30A branch c'bkr for each 240V stationary tool along with
non fused disconnect at (within 10ft) the tool."

This is correct, right? Is is fair to assume that most 15A tools also
have a fuse or internal shut-off system of their own?

I really feel I am close to knowing everything I will need to wire a
subpanel, some minor but important details concerning wire size, etc., I
can easily look up (I will err on the side of safety).

Meeting all code requirements raises the bar higher. For instance, I
haven't investigated whether one's conduit is expected to covered by
wallboard. Someone suggested that panels and subpanels are supposed to
have a front/backing board for instance (to cover/protect some of the
wiring).

I wish to note that I appreciate the kind, thoughtful and useful help
that I have received here. Learning how to do new things (or even old
things, like constructing a wooden plane) seems to raise my
happiness-quotient. : )

Bill

On 3/18/2010 11:57 AM, Bill wrote:
Lew Hodgett wrote:

Install 2P-30A branch c'bkr for each 240V stationary tool along with
a 2P-30A, non fused disconnect at (within 10ft) the tool.

I just wished to double-check that this was supposed to be
"Install 2P-30A branch c'bkr for each 240V stationary tool along with
non fused disconnect at (within 10ft) the tool."

This is correct, right? Is is fair to assume that most 15A tools also
have a fuse or internal shut-off system of their own?

IME, don't even bother with 15 amp circuits, except maybe for lights.

In many locales today at least 12 ga wire is required throughout, and it
is simply too easy to use 12 ga and go with 20 amp c'brks for your 120v
tools.

Not really enough of a cost savings for the ultimate flexibility benefit.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Swingman wrote:
On 3/18/2010 11:57 AM, Bill wrote:
Lew Hodgett wrote:

Install 2P-30A branch c'bkr for each 240V stationary tool along with
a 2P-30A, non fused disconnect at (within 10ft) the tool.

I just wished to double-check that this was supposed to be
"Install 2P-30A branch c'bkr for each 240V stationary tool along with
non fused disconnect at (within 10ft) the tool."

This is correct, right? Is is fair to assume that most 15A tools also
have a fuse or internal shut-off system of their own?

IME, don't even bother with 15 amp circuits, except maybe for lights.

In many locales today at least 12 ga wire is required throughout, and it
is simply too easy to use 12 ga and go with 20 amp c'brks for your 120v
tools.

That's exactly what I was planning to do--I'm prudently choosing safety
over (false!) economy. I expect that such decisions will nullify such
factors such as a temperature of 10 degrees in the winter and 95
degrees in the summer... But, by all means, please stop me if I expect
something wrongly!

BTW, the IM for the 15A saw I was looking at suggests putting the saw on
a 20A circuit.

Bill

On 3/18/2010 1:04 PM, Bill wrote:

BTW, the IM for the 15A saw I was looking at suggests putting the saw on
a 20A circuit.

That'll work.

--
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Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)