Please excuse my top-posting here. I just wanted to mention that I went
back and reread all of the responses I recieved to my post to the current
thread a month ago and I am actively trying to incorporate some of the
suggestions that were made into my shop design. I'm even learning a bit
about electricity...who would have guessed that a 240v line is powered by
two 120v lines! : )

I've got a 240v line on the outside of the brick garage (previously used by
an RV owner). I'd like to flip the line around for use on the inside and
put 120v instead on the outside. I'm confident about the former, the
latter I'll do if the outlet fixture sizes are compatible enough. Haven't
done my homework on that yet as the idea just occurred to me a few days ago.

I will surely need to take down the wallboard on the uninsulated wall on one
side of the garage for the sake of the electrical improvements. The side
which has our kitchen on the other side surely has insulation, other
electric, plumbing?,etc., behind it. I am less enthused about "messing"
with that wall. I'll have to give that more thought.

My current interior 220v outlet is currently pretty close to the floor.
Does the electrical "code" cite a minimum for that?

BTW, I currently have 3 36" neon lamps..I think I'm going to have 6. Plugs
in the ceiling would be convenient..

Thanks for listening,
Bill


Bill wrote:
At my site linked to below is a almost-to-scale model (pdf and
SketchUp) of the 20' by 20' garage
shop I am trying to assemble, as viewed from the omitted garage door.

Ignore the water purification system in the corner ; )
The workbench design and tools are mostly accurate only to size.
The BS has a mobile base (not shown), the TS will get one too.

Besides for the 240V outlet on the one wall, there is 120V outlet on
each wall (I think
I should check and see whether they are wired on one circuit).


You need more outlets. The more the better but at least 3 per wall IMO - I
hate cords strung everywhere. At least two circuits, more better.

The TS in the center is good but you need power for it. As I said, I hate
cords strung everywhere so the outlet for my TS is in the ceiling. There
are both 240v and 120v. Yes, a cord hangs down but at least it isn't always
getting stepped on.

Be sure you have at least eight feet in front of and behind the TS.

You'll undoubtedly be adding bench top tools which implies more benches.
When I build same I incorporate electrical outlets into them so that other
tools or adjacent benches will have conveniently placed outlets.

You need an area to store stuff...sheet goods, lumber, work in progress,
etc.

--

dadiOH

Not having seen your shop, I don't see why you would have any problems.
You are right about the 240v being, essentially, two 120v lines. Unlike
120V, which has a Hot, Common and Ground, the 240 has (or can run on) 2
Hot and a Ground/Common. ( But then so can/does 120V. If you are old
enough, you remember when all plugs only had two prongs.) While your
"could" split a 120V line off your 240V, I would not do it. You
mentioned you had 120V inside the shop, just run it to your current 240V
box (having run the 240v line, of course). You can do this by merely
tying another length of Romex cable to your existing outlet and running
it to the outside box, replacing the 240v socket, which you have already
moved inside, and weatherproof cover plate with ones for a 120v socket
and "bingo!"

As for your lighting - the more the better, I would definitely upgrade to
6, or maybe even 8 4' fixtures.

You mentioned "Code." That depends on where your live. Here in Alabama,
such mods are very common WITHOUT an inspection. However, for those of
you who live in more governmentally restrictive and union influenced
states, check with your local woodworkers for their advice. (Going to
the local government will invariably give you a "YES" answer, whereas
your woodworking buddies will tell you the truth. ;-) )

For what its worth.

Deb



On Sun, 14 Mar 2010 03:21:15 -0400, Bill wrote:

Please excuse my top-posting here. I just wanted to mention that I went
back and reread all of the responses I recieved to my post to the
current thread a month ago and I am actively trying to incorporate some
of the suggestions that were made into my shop design. I'm even
learning a bit about electricity...who would have guessed that a 240v
line is powered by two 120v lines! : )

I've got a 240v line on the outside of the brick garage (previously used
by an RV owner). I'd like to flip the line around for use on the inside
and put 120v instead on the outside. I'm confident about the former,
the latter I'll do if the outlet fixture sizes are compatible enough.
Haven't done my homework on that yet as the idea just occurred to me a
few days ago.

I will surely need to take down the wallboard on the uninsulated wall on
one side of the garage for the sake of the electrical improvements. The
side which has our kitchen on the other side surely has insulation,
other electric, plumbing?,etc., behind it. I am less enthused about
"messing" with that wall. I'll have to give that more thought.

My current interior 220v outlet is currently pretty close to the floor.
Does the electrical "code" cite a minimum for that?

BTW, I currently have 3 36" neon lamps..I think I'm going to have 6.
Plugs in the ceiling would be convenient..

Thanks for listening,
Bill


Bill wrote:
At my site linked to below is a almost-to-scale model (pdf and
SketchUp) of the 20' by 20' garage
shop I am trying to assemble, as viewed from the omitted garage door.

Ignore the water purification system in the corner ; ) The workbench
design and tools are mostly accurate only to size. The BS has a mobile
base (not shown), the TS will get one too.

Besides for the 240V outlet on the one wall, there is 120V outlet on
each wall (I think
I should check and see whether they are wired on one circuit).


You need more outlets. The more the better but at least 3 per wall IMO
- I hate cords strung everywhere. At least two circuits, more better.

The TS in the center is good but you need power for it. As I said, I
hate cords strung everywhere so the outlet for my TS is in the ceiling.
There are both 240v and 120v. Yes, a cord hangs down but at least it
isn't always getting stepped on.

Be sure you have at least eight feet in front of and behind the TS.

You'll undoubtedly be adding bench top tools which implies more benches.
When I build same I incorporate electrical outlets into them so that
other tools or adjacent benches will have conveniently placed outlets.

You need an area to store stuff...sheet goods, lumber, work in progress,
etc.

Delbert Freeman wrote:
....

You are right about the 240v being, essentially, two 120v lines. Unlike
120V, which has a Hot, Common and Ground, the 240 has (or can run on) 2
Hot and a Ground/Common. ...

To clarify for OP what could be misinterpreted given it appears little
or no familiarity exists...240V has _only_ two 120V 'hots' and an
associated ground, _no_ neutral.

Three wire appliance outlets (no longer NEC Code-compliant, now need
four) utilized the ground conductor as the 120V neutral as well for the
120V (components like motor, light, etc.) but the 240V heater coil is
tied directly across the two hot and isn't anywhere connected to a
"neutral". Ditto for 240V motors; there's a third wire but it's ground,
not neutral and the motor doesn't care whether it's there or not.

To go on for OP who seemed surprised to learn what 240V comprises, the
240V is generated by tapping from a transformer at such points that one
leg is 180-deg out of phase (in time) w/ the other so when one leg is at
the positive sine peak the other is at it's negative max. The RMS
difference between these is then the 240V your voltmeter sees while each
(being AC) measures 120V to a neutral. While these are commonly called
"phases", the phase there is the time shift within a single one of the
three phase generation phases from the powerco. It's still single-phase
power.

--

Thank you for the lessons in electricity! I take it I should be installing
"4-wire" outlets if I'm
planning to purchase new 220v tools from Delta or Grizzly, correct?

I've done a bit of reading, so I'm not as naive as I was a week ago, but I
was surprised to learn:

"240V is generated by tapping from a transformer at such points that one
leg is 180-deg out of phase (in time) w/ the other so when one leg is at
the positive sine peak the other is at it's negative max. The RMS
difference between these is then the 240V your voltmeter sees while each
(being AC) measures 120V to a neutral.

I have also learned about 3-phase power and the correspondance to induction
motors so this makes sense to
me in that context--expecially in that the hot lines to coils in the motor
will be hooked up in parallel rather than in series as in 120v
(that is the most sophisticated statement I can make about this matter at
this point and I offer it only as an indication of my level of preparedness
which is weak due to limited experience. I expect I can do this project if
I proceed cautiously).

I probably should examine a book (on setting up/modifying new existing
lines). Any suggestions regarding a book? I recall seeing a few books on
wiring at the BORGs.

Thank you,
Bill





"dpb" wrote in message
...
Delbert Freeman wrote:
...

You are right about the 240v being, essentially, two 120v lines. Unlike
120V, which has a Hot, Common and Ground, the 240 has (or can run on) 2
Hot and a Ground/Common. ...

To clarify for OP what could be misinterpreted given it appears little or
no familiarity exists...240V has _only_ two 120V 'hots' and an associated
ground, _no_ neutral.

Three wire appliance outlets (no longer NEC Code-compliant, now need four)
utilized the ground conductor as the 120V neutral as well for the 120V
(components like motor, light, etc.) but the 240V heater coil is tied
directly across the two hot and isn't anywhere connected to a "neutral".
Ditto for 240V motors; there's a third wire but it's ground, not neutral
and the motor doesn't care whether it's there or not.

To go on for OP who seemed surprised to learn what 240V comprises, the
240V is generated by tapping from a transformer at such points that one
leg is 180-deg out of phase (in time) w/ the other so when one leg is at
the positive sine peak the other is at it's negative max. The RMS
difference between these is then the 240V your voltmeter sees while each
(being AC) measures 120V to a neutral. While these are commonly called
"phases", the phase there is the time shift within a single one of the
three phase generation phases from the powerco. It's still single-phase
power.

--

Bill wrote:
Thank you for the lessons in electricity! I take it I should be
installing
"4-wire" outlets if I'm planning to purchase new 220v tools from
Delta or Grizzly, correct?

Not for "ordinary" 240V outlets, no. The four-wire connection is for
things like appliances that have both 240V and 120V loads that _used_ to
share the grounding conductor for the 120V neutral. A power saw, etc.,
that is just a 240V motor load doesn't have any use for the 120V and so
doesn't need anything other than the usual 3-wire 240V.

Used to be stuff like drill presses, etc., had a 120V accessory light
that was powered by one side of the 240V in a similar fashion but it
seems based on some other postings here that they've quit doing that in
one of two ways -- either no more courtesy light or it requires a 240V bulb.

OBTW, this is for US 120V/240V obviously, the UK and others run 240V as
does the US 120V w/ a single hot/neutral and don't have 120V routinely
(which is why ordinary US appliances are of essentially no value over
there, of course... ).

....

I probably should examine a book (on setting up/modifying new existing
lines). Any suggestions regarding a book? I recall seeing a few books on
wiring at the BORGs.
....

I better let somebody else recommend recent books rather than guess --
I'm so much an old fogey the most recent thing I have dates to the 80s
maybe at the latest and may well be 20 yrs older than that, even, I'm
not sure...

I know most of the biggest new restrictions in the NEC simply by word of
mouth; I also tend to ignore most of them here on the farm and in the
shop figuring if it's been good enough for 50 years or so it couldn't
have been _too_ bad... That, of course, isn't to be taken as a
recommendation against following Code in new work...

--

On 3/14/2010 2:34 PM, Bill wrote:
Thank you for the lessons in electricity! I take it I should be installing
"4-wire" outlets if I'm
planning to purchase new 220v tools from Delta or Grizzly, correct?

Nope ... most 220/240v woodworking tools in North America only need a
total of 3 wires to both work properly and comply with code.

The three wires needed for 220/240v operation a Two hot wires (one
from each hot leg of the service/sub panel), and one ground wire. The
ground wire, while not necessary to power the equipment, is necessary
for safety and code compliance.

The "four wire" cables/installations you mentioned are used for 220/240v
appliances (like stoves and dryers) that are also equipped with timers,
lights, etc, and that operate on 120v.

That said, there might be the ocassional woodworking tool that requires
120v also for lights and/or speed control circuits, etc ... so do your
homework before attempting to wire.

If you have one of these 4 wire circuits and don't need the extra wire,
then simply use the two hots wires, usually black and red (which
can/should be verified at the c'bkr) and the ground wire; and put a wire
nut/tape on the end of the neutral/white wire in the receptacle.

NOTE: some 220/240v circuits use "2 wire w/ground".

In this case the white, neutral, wire can be used as one of the two
necessary hot wires but it must be clearly marked on both ends, at the
c'bkr and the receptacle (generally with a wrap of black tape), so that
those coming after you know it is indeed being used as as a "hot" wire.

I probably should examine a book (on setting up/modifying new existing
lines). Any suggestions regarding a book? I recall seeing a few books on
wiring at the BORGs.

Most of those are well worth the price paid for a DIY'er. Don't confuse
yourself with learning about 3 phase power unless you have a need; take
your time, understand and think about what you're doing and don't do it
until you do ... it is not a bad idea for a home/shop owner to turn off
the power to the ENTIRE structure when doing electrical work (and if you
can lock up the service panel so that only you have access while doing
the work, so much the better).

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Swingman" wrote in message
...
On 3/14/2010 2:34 PM, Bill wrote:
Thank you for the lessons in electricity! I take it I should be
installing
"4-wire" outlets if I'm
planning to purchase new 220v tools from Delta or Grizzly, correct?

Nope ... most 220/240v woodworking tools in North America only need a
total of 3 wires to both work properly and comply with code.



The three wires needed for 220/240v operation a Two hot wires (one from
each hot leg of the service/sub panel), and one ground wire. The ground
wire, while not necessary to power the equipment, is necessary for safety
and code compliance.

Isn't the ground, then, "completing the circuit" in this case?


BTW, I noticed that my outlet on the outside has a single 30 Amp breaker
and that the interior one has a double 50-Amp breaker (s). The 30 Amp one
on the outside
was used by the previously owner for his RV and the interior one for
welding.

My biggest tool will be a 3HP TS which Grizzly suggests a 20 Amp circuit
for. My thought was to
put a Delta 1.5 HP DC on the 30 Amp line and a series of outlets along a
wall that would support
other 220v machinery (including the TS). It seems like the 50-Amp circuit
would support several machines, one-at-a-time,
with the possible future attachment of things like a heater, for example,
later if desired.
Additionally, I'd add another 120v line for the same wall (outlets about 4
feet apart) and provide another
120v line for use by the workbench (tools).

Currently, my garage lights and outlets share a line with with the kitchen
outlets, and it is nice that a pair of
garage lights come on with the flip of a switch from the kitchen. I may add
another line for the
ceiling which would support 4 florescent lights and for whatever tool might
be convenient to plug in there.

So, that would proivde me with a total of 3 120v lines and 2 240v lines for
tools and would leave me with 3 empty slots in my junction box. Some person
dedicated two 120v lines to power 2 separate bedroom ceiling fans (seems
like a waste). Powering them from other existing circuits is probably not
worth the bother since I don't know how to easily do it. Powering them
together with one circuit may be worth considering, if necessary! If
nothing else, it would give me something to do in my free time after I
finish grinding and epoxying the floor. ; )

SWMBO is ready to see furniture being made! ; ) She doesn't see this as
all being part of the process.

Every time I come back here I think this through a little further..I'm going
to print this out so I don't forget! ; )

Thanks,
Bill

You are right about the 240v being, essentially, two 120v lines. �Unlike
120V, which has a Hot, Common and Ground, the 240 has (or can run on) 2
Hot and a Ground/Common. ...

To clarify for OP what could be misinterpreted given it appears little or
no familiarity exists...240V has _only_ two 120V 'hots' and an associated
ground, _no_ neutral.
Bill

Too much in your message(s) to really make meaningful/rational
comments.

So please get some more learning.

Also be aware that the RV power you mention is probably 30 or 50 amp
power. Sure it is 240 volt? And too small for the shop enviorment you
mention.

Where and how 240 volts is sourced to the consumer, has been mentioned
here, but the details that transform the high voltage on the power
pole or in the power vault that is near you property line is more
complex than what has been mentioned here.

If you add a power (sub)panel that is sourced from your service panel
remember that are limitations in the code. The neutral and the ground
need to be separate and not connected circuits.

Bob AZ

"Bob AZ" wrote in message
...


You are right about the 240v being, essentially, two 120v lines.
?Unlike
120V, which has a Hot, Common and Ground, the 240 has (or can run on) 2
Hot and a Ground/Common. ...

To clarify for OP what could be misinterpreted given it appears little
or
no familiarity exists...240V has _only_ two 120V 'hots' and an
associated
ground, _no_ neutral.

I'm sorry MS-Outlook6 does such a poor job of formatting my reply. I typed
after
the dashes.




Too much in your message(s) to really make meaningful/rational
comments.

So please get some more learning.

Also be aware that the RV power you mention is probably 30 or 50 amp
power. Sure it is 240 volt? And too small for the shop enviorment you
mention.

-------------
I just went and looked at it with a flashlight--125v, 30-Amps, "for
Travel-trailer
use only". The plug shape made me think it was 220...
Maybe the line would be suitable for a dedicated DC. I need to learn more
about that outlet.



Where and how 240 volts is sourced to the consumer, has been mentioned
here, but the details that transform the high voltage on the power
pole or in the power vault that is near you property line is more
complex than what has been mentioned here.

----
Yes, I know little more than that I have a 3 year old (due to hail damage)
200 amp service
and a 220 with 50 amp breakers, which was used for welding (which I assume
suggests
a certain level of integrity).



If you add a power (sub)panel that is sourced from your service panel
remember that are limitations in the code. The neutral and the ground
need to be separate and not connected circuits.

---
Bob, I had not thought of adding a subpanel. I will need to learn more
about the implications of that.
Thank you for your reply. -Bil.





Bob AZ

....
Where and how 240 volts is sourced to the consumer, has been mentioned
here, but the details that transform the high voltage on the power
pole or in the power vault that is near you property line is more
complex than what has been mentioned here.
....
But those details are of absolutely no concern for the subject. The
level of detail that explains what he has at his panel is more than
adequate for now...

--

On Sun, 14 Mar 2010 03:21:15 -0400, "Bill" wrote:


Please excuse my top-posting here. I just wanted to mention that I went
back and reread all of the responses I recieved to my post to the current
thread a month ago and I am actively trying to incorporate some of the
suggestions that were made into my shop design. I'm even learning a bit
about electricity...who would have guessed that a 240v line is powered by
two 120v lines! : )

It isn't. A 120V line is half of a 240V line. ;-)

I've got a 240v line on the outside of the brick garage (previously used by
an RV owner). I'd like to flip the line around for use on the inside and
put 120v instead on the outside. I'm confident about the former, the
latter I'll do if the outlet fixture sizes are compatible enough. Haven't
done my homework on that yet as the idea just occurred to me a few days ago.

If there are four wires here, you can simply put a subpanel in its place and
wire 120 or 240 circuits out of it. You will be limited to the current
supported by the wire size.

I will surely need to take down the wallboard on the uninsulated wall on one
side of the garage for the sake of the electrical improvements. The side
which has our kitchen on the other side surely has insulation, other
electric, plumbing?,etc., behind it. I am less enthused about "messing"
with that wall. I'll have to give that more thought.

My current interior 220v outlet is currently pretty close to the floor.
Does the electrical "code" cite a minimum for that?

If it's there, leave it. Does it get wet?

BTW, I currently have 3 36" neon lamps..I think I'm going to have 6. Plugs
in the ceiling would be convenient..

Fluorescent?

My current interior 220v outlet is currently pretty close to the floor.
Does the electrical "code" cite a minimum for that?

If it's there, leave it. Does it get wet?

It's just 6" off of the ground. It doesn't get wet.



BTW, I currently have 3 36" neon lamps..I think I'm going to have 6.
Plugs
in the ceiling would be convenient..

Fluorescent?

Yes, What a strangely spelled word (I checked)!

--Bill

On Sun, 14 Mar 2010 23:26:29 -0400, "Bill" wrote:


My current interior 220v outlet is currently pretty close to the floor.
Does the electrical "code" cite a minimum for that?

If it's there, leave it. Does it get wet?

It's just 6" off of the ground. It doesn't get wet.

That is pretty low, but I wouldn't mess with it unless you have to move/rewire
it for some other reason.

BTW, I currently have 3 36" neon lamps..I think I'm going to have 6.
Plugs
in the ceiling would be convenient..

Fluorescent?

Yes, What a strangely spelled word (I checked)!

:-)

1. Never enough outlets.

a) Try running 12/3 or to all you outlets, isolating the top from
the bottom and adding a switch to the bottom outlets if not to top and
bottom. This will allow you to leave those wall transformers plugged
in 24/7, but turn off power to them when you leave the shop.

b) Duplex outlets in the ceiling can serve ideally for the four
foot fluorescent "shop lamps" sold at Lowes, HD, etc for about $9. And
you can do the switched approach on these as well in case you have a
need for a DROP CORD approach to a tool - assuming your shop would not
be usable with the lights off e.g. nto enough window area to let in
sufficient daylight for working.

2. The wall on the house side might prove a treasure trove of points
to secure power, telephone line, cable TV, water, sewer access. Is the
floor of the shop even with that of the house/kitchen? Hey, how about
a shop sink/eyewash station replete with drain?

I copied & pasted below from:
http://www.handymanclub.com/Projects....aspx?id=20483
(We've given The HandyMan Club a bad rap here--but they had a decent
article).

I quote:
"When determining where to install a subpanel, be sure to follow the
National Electrical Code (NEC) requirements. In front of the subpanel, you’ll
need free working space that’s 36 in. deep and at least as wide as the
subpanel (or 30 in. wide — whichever is greater). The space above the panel
must be completely open to the structural ceiling (no shelving, etc.), and
the space below must be open to the floor (no lawnmowers, trash cans,
workbenches, etc.)."


Am I to understand from this that if a subpanel is mounted flush on a wall,
that nothing is to be place in FRONT of it (ever)? It comes down to where
it is written: "the space below must be open to the floor"---does that refer
to the space directly below the subpanel or include the 36" in front of it
mentioned earlier. Otherwise, I'd have what--a fire violation?

This may conflict with one of our "valuable space axioms" that Roy, IIRC,
mentioned before.

Just Curious,
Bill

On 3/17/2010 1:20 AM, Bill wrote:
I copied& pasted below from:
http://www.handymanclub.com/Projects....aspx?id=20483
(We've given The HandyMan Club a bad rap here--but they had a decent
article).

I quote:
"When determining where to install a subpanel, be sure to follow the
National Electrical Code (NEC) requirements. In front of the subpanel, you’ll
need free working space that’s 36 in. deep and at least as wide as the
subpanel (or 30 in. wide — whichever is greater). The space above the panel
must be completely open to the structural ceiling (no shelving, etc.), and
the space below must be open to the floor (no lawnmowers, trash cans,
workbenches, etc.)."


Am I to understand from this that if a subpanel is mounted flush on a wall,
that nothing is to be place in FRONT of it (ever)? It comes down to where
it is written: "the space below must be open to the floor"---does that refer
to the space directly below the subpanel or include the 36" in front of it
mentioned earlier. Otherwise, I'd have what--a fire violation?


It's a 10-4 that you would have an "electrical code violation",

That said, when the inspector leaves most home owners go ahead and make
a clothes closet out of that "machine room" .... if you now what I mean.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)