Please excuse my top-posting here. I just wanted to mention that I went
back and reread all of the responses I recieved to my post to the current
thread a month ago and I am actively trying to incorporate some of the
suggestions that were made into my shop design. I'm even learning a bit
about electricity...who would have guessed that a 240v line is powered by
two 120v lines! : )

I've got a 240v line on the outside of the brick garage (previously used by
an RV owner). I'd like to flip the line around for use on the inside and
put 120v instead on the outside. I'm confident about the former, the
latter I'll do if the outlet fixture sizes are compatible enough. Haven't
done my homework on that yet as the idea just occurred to me a few days ago.

I will surely need to take down the wallboard on the uninsulated wall on one
side of the garage for the sake of the electrical improvements. The side
which has our kitchen on the other side surely has insulation, other
electric, plumbing?,etc., behind it. I am less enthused about "messing"
with that wall. I'll have to give that more thought.

My current interior 220v outlet is currently pretty close to the floor.
Does the electrical "code" cite a minimum for that?

BTW, I currently have 3 36" neon lamps..I think I'm going to have 6. Plugs
in the ceiling would be convenient..

Thanks for listening,
Bill


Bill wrote:
At my site linked to below is a almost-to-scale model (pdf and
SketchUp) of the 20' by 20' garage
shop I am trying to assemble, as viewed from the omitted garage door.

Ignore the water purification system in the corner ; )
The workbench design and tools are mostly accurate only to size.
The BS has a mobile base (not shown), the TS will get one too.

Besides for the 240V outlet on the one wall, there is 120V outlet on
each wall (I think
I should check and see whether they are wired on one circuit).


You need more outlets. The more the better but at least 3 per wall IMO - I
hate cords strung everywhere. At least two circuits, more better.

The TS in the center is good but you need power for it. As I said, I hate
cords strung everywhere so the outlet for my TS is in the ceiling. There
are both 240v and 120v. Yes, a cord hangs down but at least it isn't always
getting stepped on.

Be sure you have at least eight feet in front of and behind the TS.

You'll undoubtedly be adding bench top tools which implies more benches.
When I build same I incorporate electrical outlets into them so that other
tools or adjacent benches will have conveniently placed outlets.

You need an area to store stuff...sheet goods, lumber, work in progress,
etc.

--

dadiOH

Not having seen your shop, I don't see why you would have any problems.
You are right about the 240v being, essentially, two 120v lines. Unlike
120V, which has a Hot, Common and Ground, the 240 has (or can run on) 2
Hot and a Ground/Common. ( But then so can/does 120V. If you are old
enough, you remember when all plugs only had two prongs.) While your
"could" split a 120V line off your 240V, I would not do it. You
mentioned you had 120V inside the shop, just run it to your current 240V
box (having run the 240v line, of course). You can do this by merely
tying another length of Romex cable to your existing outlet and running
it to the outside box, replacing the 240v socket, which you have already
moved inside, and weatherproof cover plate with ones for a 120v socket
and "bingo!"

As for your lighting - the more the better, I would definitely upgrade to
6, or maybe even 8 4' fixtures.

You mentioned "Code." That depends on where your live. Here in Alabama,
such mods are very common WITHOUT an inspection. However, for those of
you who live in more governmentally restrictive and union influenced
states, check with your local woodworkers for their advice. (Going to
the local government will invariably give you a "YES" answer, whereas
your woodworking buddies will tell you the truth. ;-) )

For what its worth.

Deb



On Sun, 14 Mar 2010 03:21:15 -0400, Bill wrote:

Please excuse my top-posting here. I just wanted to mention that I went
back and reread all of the responses I recieved to my post to the
current thread a month ago and I am actively trying to incorporate some
of the suggestions that were made into my shop design. I'm even
learning a bit about electricity...who would have guessed that a 240v
line is powered by two 120v lines! : )

I've got a 240v line on the outside of the brick garage (previously used
by an RV owner). I'd like to flip the line around for use on the inside
and put 120v instead on the outside. I'm confident about the former,
the latter I'll do if the outlet fixture sizes are compatible enough.
Haven't done my homework on that yet as the idea just occurred to me a
few days ago.

I will surely need to take down the wallboard on the uninsulated wall on
one side of the garage for the sake of the electrical improvements. The
side which has our kitchen on the other side surely has insulation,
other electric, plumbing?,etc., behind it. I am less enthused about
"messing" with that wall. I'll have to give that more thought.

My current interior 220v outlet is currently pretty close to the floor.
Does the electrical "code" cite a minimum for that?

BTW, I currently have 3 36" neon lamps..I think I'm going to have 6.
Plugs in the ceiling would be convenient..

Thanks for listening,
Bill


Bill wrote:
At my site linked to below is a almost-to-scale model (pdf and
SketchUp) of the 20' by 20' garage
shop I am trying to assemble, as viewed from the omitted garage door.

Ignore the water purification system in the corner ; ) The workbench
design and tools are mostly accurate only to size. The BS has a mobile
base (not shown), the TS will get one too.

Besides for the 240V outlet on the one wall, there is 120V outlet on
each wall (I think
I should check and see whether they are wired on one circuit).


You need more outlets. The more the better but at least 3 per wall IMO
- I hate cords strung everywhere. At least two circuits, more better.

The TS in the center is good but you need power for it. As I said, I
hate cords strung everywhere so the outlet for my TS is in the ceiling.
There are both 240v and 120v. Yes, a cord hangs down but at least it
isn't always getting stepped on.

Be sure you have at least eight feet in front of and behind the TS.

You'll undoubtedly be adding bench top tools which implies more benches.
When I build same I incorporate electrical outlets into them so that
other tools or adjacent benches will have conveniently placed outlets.

You need an area to store stuff...sheet goods, lumber, work in progress,
etc.

Delbert Freeman wrote:
....

You are right about the 240v being, essentially, two 120v lines. Unlike
120V, which has a Hot, Common and Ground, the 240 has (or can run on) 2
Hot and a Ground/Common. ...

To clarify for OP what could be misinterpreted given it appears little
or no familiarity exists...240V has _only_ two 120V 'hots' and an
associated ground, _no_ neutral.

Three wire appliance outlets (no longer NEC Code-compliant, now need
four) utilized the ground conductor as the 120V neutral as well for the
120V (components like motor, light, etc.) but the 240V heater coil is
tied directly across the two hot and isn't anywhere connected to a
"neutral". Ditto for 240V motors; there's a third wire but it's ground,
not neutral and the motor doesn't care whether it's there or not.

To go on for OP who seemed surprised to learn what 240V comprises, the
240V is generated by tapping from a transformer at such points that one
leg is 180-deg out of phase (in time) w/ the other so when one leg is at
the positive sine peak the other is at it's negative max. The RMS
difference between these is then the 240V your voltmeter sees while each
(being AC) measures 120V to a neutral. While these are commonly called
"phases", the phase there is the time shift within a single one of the
three phase generation phases from the powerco. It's still single-phase
power.

--

Thank you for the lessons in electricity! I take it I should be installing
"4-wire" outlets if I'm
planning to purchase new 220v tools from Delta or Grizzly, correct?

I've done a bit of reading, so I'm not as naive as I was a week ago, but I
was surprised to learn:

"240V is generated by tapping from a transformer at such points that one
leg is 180-deg out of phase (in time) w/ the other so when one leg is at
the positive sine peak the other is at it's negative max. The RMS
difference between these is then the 240V your voltmeter sees while each
(being AC) measures 120V to a neutral.

I have also learned about 3-phase power and the correspondance to induction
motors so this makes sense to
me in that context--expecially in that the hot lines to coils in the motor
will be hooked up in parallel rather than in series as in 120v
(that is the most sophisticated statement I can make about this matter at
this point and I offer it only as an indication of my level of preparedness
which is weak due to limited experience. I expect I can do this project if
I proceed cautiously).

I probably should examine a book (on setting up/modifying new existing
lines). Any suggestions regarding a book? I recall seeing a few books on
wiring at the BORGs.

Thank you,
Bill





"dpb" wrote in message
...
Delbert Freeman wrote:
...

You are right about the 240v being, essentially, two 120v lines. Unlike
120V, which has a Hot, Common and Ground, the 240 has (or can run on) 2
Hot and a Ground/Common. ...

To clarify for OP what could be misinterpreted given it appears little or
no familiarity exists...240V has _only_ two 120V 'hots' and an associated
ground, _no_ neutral.

Three wire appliance outlets (no longer NEC Code-compliant, now need four)
utilized the ground conductor as the 120V neutral as well for the 120V
(components like motor, light, etc.) but the 240V heater coil is tied
directly across the two hot and isn't anywhere connected to a "neutral".
Ditto for 240V motors; there's a third wire but it's ground, not neutral
and the motor doesn't care whether it's there or not.

To go on for OP who seemed surprised to learn what 240V comprises, the
240V is generated by tapping from a transformer at such points that one
leg is 180-deg out of phase (in time) w/ the other so when one leg is at
the positive sine peak the other is at it's negative max. The RMS
difference between these is then the 240V your voltmeter sees while each
(being AC) measures 120V to a neutral. While these are commonly called
"phases", the phase there is the time shift within a single one of the
three phase generation phases from the powerco. It's still single-phase
power.

--

Bill wrote:
Thank you for the lessons in electricity! I take it I should be
installing
"4-wire" outlets if I'm planning to purchase new 220v tools from
Delta or Grizzly, correct?

Not for "ordinary" 240V outlets, no. The four-wire connection is for
things like appliances that have both 240V and 120V loads that _used_ to
share the grounding conductor for the 120V neutral. A power saw, etc.,
that is just a 240V motor load doesn't have any use for the 120V and so
doesn't need anything other than the usual 3-wire 240V.

Used to be stuff like drill presses, etc., had a 120V accessory light
that was powered by one side of the 240V in a similar fashion but it
seems based on some other postings here that they've quit doing that in
one of two ways -- either no more courtesy light or it requires a 240V bulb.

OBTW, this is for US 120V/240V obviously, the UK and others run 240V as
does the US 120V w/ a single hot/neutral and don't have 120V routinely
(which is why ordinary US appliances are of essentially no value over
there, of course... ).

....

I probably should examine a book (on setting up/modifying new existing
lines). Any suggestions regarding a book? I recall seeing a few books on
wiring at the BORGs.
....

I better let somebody else recommend recent books rather than guess --
I'm so much an old fogey the most recent thing I have dates to the 80s
maybe at the latest and may well be 20 yrs older than that, even, I'm
not sure...

I know most of the biggest new restrictions in the NEC simply by word of
mouth; I also tend to ignore most of them here on the farm and in the
shop figuring if it's been good enough for 50 years or so it couldn't
have been _too_ bad... That, of course, isn't to be taken as a
recommendation against following Code in new work...

--

On 3/14/2010 2:34 PM, Bill wrote:
Thank you for the lessons in electricity! I take it I should be installing
"4-wire" outlets if I'm
planning to purchase new 220v tools from Delta or Grizzly, correct?

Nope ... most 220/240v woodworking tools in North America only need a
total of 3 wires to both work properly and comply with code.

The three wires needed for 220/240v operation a Two hot wires (one
from each hot leg of the service/sub panel), and one ground wire. The
ground wire, while not necessary to power the equipment, is necessary
for safety and code compliance.

The "four wire" cables/installations you mentioned are used for 220/240v
appliances (like stoves and dryers) that are also equipped with timers,
lights, etc, and that operate on 120v.

That said, there might be the ocassional woodworking tool that requires
120v also for lights and/or speed control circuits, etc ... so do your
homework before attempting to wire.

If you have one of these 4 wire circuits and don't need the extra wire,
then simply use the two hots wires, usually black and red (which
can/should be verified at the c'bkr) and the ground wire; and put a wire
nut/tape on the end of the neutral/white wire in the receptacle.

NOTE: some 220/240v circuits use "2 wire w/ground".

In this case the white, neutral, wire can be used as one of the two
necessary hot wires but it must be clearly marked on both ends, at the
c'bkr and the receptacle (generally with a wrap of black tape), so that
those coming after you know it is indeed being used as as a "hot" wire.

I probably should examine a book (on setting up/modifying new existing
lines). Any suggestions regarding a book? I recall seeing a few books on
wiring at the BORGs.

Most of those are well worth the price paid for a DIY'er. Don't confuse
yourself with learning about 3 phase power unless you have a need; take
your time, understand and think about what you're doing and don't do it
until you do ... it is not a bad idea for a home/shop owner to turn off
the power to the ENTIRE structure when doing electrical work (and if you
can lock up the service panel so that only you have access while doing
the work, so much the better).

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Sun, 14 Mar 2010 03:21:15 -0400, "Bill" wrote:


Please excuse my top-posting here. I just wanted to mention that I went
back and reread all of the responses I recieved to my post to the current
thread a month ago and I am actively trying to incorporate some of the
suggestions that were made into my shop design. I'm even learning a bit
about electricity...who would have guessed that a 240v line is powered by
two 120v lines! : )

It isn't. A 120V line is half of a 240V line. ;-)

I've got a 240v line on the outside of the brick garage (previously used by
an RV owner). I'd like to flip the line around for use on the inside and
put 120v instead on the outside. I'm confident about the former, the
latter I'll do if the outlet fixture sizes are compatible enough. Haven't
done my homework on that yet as the idea just occurred to me a few days ago.

If there are four wires here, you can simply put a subpanel in its place and
wire 120 or 240 circuits out of it. You will be limited to the current
supported by the wire size.

I will surely need to take down the wallboard on the uninsulated wall on one
side of the garage for the sake of the electrical improvements. The side
which has our kitchen on the other side surely has insulation, other
electric, plumbing?,etc., behind it. I am less enthused about "messing"
with that wall. I'll have to give that more thought.

My current interior 220v outlet is currently pretty close to the floor.
Does the electrical "code" cite a minimum for that?

If it's there, leave it. Does it get wet?

BTW, I currently have 3 36" neon lamps..I think I'm going to have 6. Plugs
in the ceiling would be convenient..

Fluorescent?

"Swingman" wrote in message
...
On 3/14/2010 2:34 PM, Bill wrote:
Thank you for the lessons in electricity! I take it I should be
installing
"4-wire" outlets if I'm
planning to purchase new 220v tools from Delta or Grizzly, correct?

Nope ... most 220/240v woodworking tools in North America only need a
total of 3 wires to both work properly and comply with code.



The three wires needed for 220/240v operation a Two hot wires (one from
each hot leg of the service/sub panel), and one ground wire. The ground
wire, while not necessary to power the equipment, is necessary for safety
and code compliance.

Isn't the ground, then, "completing the circuit" in this case?


BTW, I noticed that my outlet on the outside has a single 30 Amp breaker
and that the interior one has a double 50-Amp breaker (s). The 30 Amp one
on the outside
was used by the previously owner for his RV and the interior one for
welding.

My biggest tool will be a 3HP TS which Grizzly suggests a 20 Amp circuit
for. My thought was to
put a Delta 1.5 HP DC on the 30 Amp line and a series of outlets along a
wall that would support
other 220v machinery (including the TS). It seems like the 50-Amp circuit
would support several machines, one-at-a-time,
with the possible future attachment of things like a heater, for example,
later if desired.
Additionally, I'd add another 120v line for the same wall (outlets about 4
feet apart) and provide another
120v line for use by the workbench (tools).

Currently, my garage lights and outlets share a line with with the kitchen
outlets, and it is nice that a pair of
garage lights come on with the flip of a switch from the kitchen. I may add
another line for the
ceiling which would support 4 florescent lights and for whatever tool might
be convenient to plug in there.

So, that would proivde me with a total of 3 120v lines and 2 240v lines for
tools and would leave me with 3 empty slots in my junction box. Some person
dedicated two 120v lines to power 2 separate bedroom ceiling fans (seems
like a waste). Powering them from other existing circuits is probably not
worth the bother since I don't know how to easily do it. Powering them
together with one circuit may be worth considering, if necessary! If
nothing else, it would give me something to do in my free time after I
finish grinding and epoxying the floor. ; )

SWMBO is ready to see furniture being made! ; ) She doesn't see this as
all being part of the process.

Every time I come back here I think this through a little further..I'm going
to print this out so I don't forget! ; )

Thanks,
Bill

You are right about the 240v being, essentially, two 120v lines. �Unlike
120V, which has a Hot, Common and Ground, the 240 has (or can run on) 2
Hot and a Ground/Common. ...

To clarify for OP what could be misinterpreted given it appears little or
no familiarity exists...240V has _only_ two 120V 'hots' and an associated
ground, _no_ neutral.
Bill

Too much in your message(s) to really make meaningful/rational
comments.

So please get some more learning.

Also be aware that the RV power you mention is probably 30 or 50 amp
power. Sure it is 240 volt? And too small for the shop enviorment you
mention.

Where and how 240 volts is sourced to the consumer, has been mentioned
here, but the details that transform the high voltage on the power
pole or in the power vault that is near you property line is more
complex than what has been mentioned here.

If you add a power (sub)panel that is sourced from your service panel
remember that are limitations in the code. The neutral and the ground
need to be separate and not connected circuits.

Bob AZ

"Bob AZ" wrote in message
...


You are right about the 240v being, essentially, two 120v lines.
?Unlike
120V, which has a Hot, Common and Ground, the 240 has (or can run on) 2
Hot and a Ground/Common. ...

To clarify for OP what could be misinterpreted given it appears little
or
no familiarity exists...240V has _only_ two 120V 'hots' and an
associated
ground, _no_ neutral.

I'm sorry MS-Outlook6 does such a poor job of formatting my reply. I typed
after
the dashes.




Too much in your message(s) to really make meaningful/rational
comments.

So please get some more learning.

Also be aware that the RV power you mention is probably 30 or 50 amp
power. Sure it is 240 volt? And too small for the shop enviorment you
mention.

-------------
I just went and looked at it with a flashlight--125v, 30-Amps, "for
Travel-trailer
use only". The plug shape made me think it was 220...
Maybe the line would be suitable for a dedicated DC. I need to learn more
about that outlet.



Where and how 240 volts is sourced to the consumer, has been mentioned
here, but the details that transform the high voltage on the power
pole or in the power vault that is near you property line is more
complex than what has been mentioned here.

----
Yes, I know little more than that I have a 3 year old (due to hail damage)
200 amp service
and a 220 with 50 amp breakers, which was used for welding (which I assume
suggests
a certain level of integrity).



If you add a power (sub)panel that is sourced from your service panel
remember that are limitations in the code. The neutral and the ground
need to be separate and not connected circuits.

---
Bob, I had not thought of adding a subpanel. I will need to learn more
about the implications of that.
Thank you for your reply. -Bil.





Bob AZ

Bill wrote:
"Swingman" wrote in message
...
....

Nope ... most 220/240v woodworking tools in North America only need a
total of 3 wires to both work properly and comply with code.



The three wires needed for 220/240v operation a Two hot wires (one from
each hot leg of the service/sub panel), and one ground wire. The ground
wire, while not necessary to power the equipment, is necessary for safety
and code compliance.

Isn't the ground, then, "completing the circuit" in this case?


_NO!!!_

That's what I said earlier and Swing just reiterated -- the ground for a
240V-only motor/appliance/heater/whatever is _purely_ a safety ground.
Remove it and the operation of the device will be totally unaffected.
The only purpose it serves is to ground the case in the event of a fault
that would somehow otherwise energize it.

The circuit is completed between the two legs -- remember, this is AC
and my description of the way in which the voltages are generated as
being tapped from different points on the transformer so one leg is
positive while the other is negative (at the peaks, since the driving
voltage is a sine wave they're both varying continuously but always with
this same 180-degree lag of one relative to the other). Owing to that,
one is always positive with respect to the other (except at the instant
of crossing, of course, and w/ a varying amplitude that is in RMS terms
the 240V) and the current flows from the higher to the lower thru the
device, the direction and magnitude at any time depending on that
varying potential and the load characteristics. Hence the ground in the
240V-only case never sees any current flow at all and can be dispensed
with except for the safety reasons.

The difference is in the split-voltage 120/240V case where there's a
device of both voltages on three-wire service. Then, since the 120V
device _does_ have to have a return, the ground conductor also serves
that role. As noted earlier, that is what the NEC has now outlawed
requiring 4-conductor service to keep the 120V neutral and the safety
ground separate to serve their individual functions.



BTW, I noticed that my outlet on the outside has a single 30 Amp breaker
and that the interior one has a double 50-Amp breaker (s). The 30 Amp one
on the outside
was used by the previously owner for his RV and the interior one for
welding.

My biggest tool will be a 3HP TS which Grizzly suggests a 20 Amp circuit
for. My thought was to
put a Delta 1.5 HP DC on the 30 Amp line and a series of outlets along a
wall that would support
other 220v machinery (including the TS). It seems like the 50-Amp circuit
would support several machines, one-at-a-time,
with the possible future attachment of things like a heater, for example,
later if desired.
....

The 50A service is more than adequate for everything you'll likely ever
have in the shop (other than perhaps if you add a bunch of electric
heat). The rub is, Code won't allow putting a 20A or 30A outlet on a
circuit protected for more than the rating of the outlet (for obvious
reasons if you think about it (and this is one that I _wouldn't_ break
despite my previous comments ) ).

I don't know if you could find 50A standard configuration 240V outlets;
would doubt it. OTOMH, the options I'd see would be

a) Swap the 50A breaker for the rating of outlet(s) you want to use
(Code is happy if conductors are larger than allowed minimums for any
given size breaker),

b) Put in a small subpanel to feed the convenience outlets and wire them
w/ 10g or whatever is appropriate for the chosen feeder breaker for the
subcircuit

--

....
Where and how 240 volts is sourced to the consumer, has been mentioned
here, but the details that transform the high voltage on the power
pole or in the power vault that is near you property line is more
complex than what has been mentioned here.
....
But those details are of absolutely no concern for the subject. The
level of detail that explains what he has at his panel is more than
adequate for now...

--

"dpb" wrote in message
...
Bill wrote:
"Swingman" wrote in message
...
...

Nope ... most 220/240v woodworking tools in North America only need a
total of 3 wires to both work properly and comply with code.



The three wires needed for 220/240v operation a Two hot wires (one
from each hot leg of the service/sub panel), and one ground wire. The
ground wire, while not necessary to power the equipment, is necessary
for safety and code compliance.

Isn't the ground, then, "completing the circuit" in this case?


_NO!!!_


Okay, I got it now! I think we only studied DC circuits in electronics
class in H.S. ; )
I didn't realize the elevated-sophistication of 240v power compared to
120v...


The 50A service is more than adequate for everything you'll likely ever
have in the shop (other than perhaps if you add a bunch of electric heat).
The rub is, Code won't allow putting a 20A or 30A outlet on a circuit
protected for more than the rating of the outlet (for obvious reasons if
you think about it (and this is one that I _wouldn't_ break despite my
previous comments ) ).

I don't know if you could find 50A standard configuration 240V outlets;
would doubt it. OTOMH, the options I'd see would be

a) Swap the 50A breaker for the rating of outlet(s) you want to use (Code
is happy if conductors are larger than allowed minimums for any given size
breaker),

b) Put in a small subpanel to feed the convenience outlets and wire them
w/ 10g or whatever is appropriate for the chosen feeder breaker for the
subcircuit


I like option (b) if I can power the subpanel with the 50 amp line. Thank
you for pointing
out the issue beween the 240V outlets and the 50A power line. I'll take a
really close
look at what type of outlet is on it now (and I'm not sure if welders use a
special 50A outlet or not).

Thank you for your help!
Bill

My current interior 220v outlet is currently pretty close to the floor.
Does the electrical "code" cite a minimum for that?

If it's there, leave it. Does it get wet?

It's just 6" off of the ground. It doesn't get wet.



BTW, I currently have 3 36" neon lamps..I think I'm going to have 6.
Plugs
in the ceiling would be convenient..

Fluorescent?

Yes, What a strangely spelled word (I checked)!

--Bill

"dpb" wrote in message
...
The 50A service is more than adequate for everything you'll likely ever
have in the shop (other than perhaps if you add a bunch of electric heat).
The rub is, Code won't allow putting a 20A or 30A outlet on a circuit
protected for more than the rating of the outlet (for obvious reasons if
you think about it (and this is one that I _wouldn't_ break despite my
previous comments ) ).

I don't know if you could find 50A standard configuration 240V outlets;
would doubt it. OTOMH, the options I'd see would be

a) Swap the 50A breaker for the rating of outlet(s) you want to use (Code
is happy if conductors are larger than allowed minimums for any given size
breaker),

b) Put in a small subpanel to feed the convenience outlets and wire them
w/ 10g or whatever is appropriate for the chosen feeder breaker for the
subcircuit


dbp,

Following up on your hints, I came to learn that a service outlet offering
240v
50A service is different than one offering 20A or even 15A service (although
the 20A outlet, 6-20 is compatible with 6-15). The Grizzly G-0690 TS I am
considering has a 6-20 plug (NEMA 6-20P). ; )

What a day.

Is there a rule that says a subpanel has to be a very short distance from
the main panel? I would position it about 10 feet away if I could.

Is anything (code) likely to prevent me from doing what I want with 15A and
20A
120v and 240v circuits from a subpanel (like having 10 of them)? As you
mentioned earlier,
I'm likely to stay far below the 50A threshold in terms of actual usage.

Thank you for the lesson!
Bill

On Sun, 14 Mar 2010 23:26:29 -0400, "Bill" wrote:


My current interior 220v outlet is currently pretty close to the floor.
Does the electrical "code" cite a minimum for that?

If it's there, leave it. Does it get wet?

It's just 6" off of the ground. It doesn't get wet.

That is pretty low, but I wouldn't mess with it unless you have to move/rewire
it for some other reason.

BTW, I currently have 3 36" neon lamps..I think I'm going to have 6.
Plugs
in the ceiling would be convenient..

Fluorescent?

Yes, What a strangely spelled word (I checked)!

:-)

Just as a FWIW, let me admit to a minor boondoggle I did long ago.
Let's just say that I have a bit of experience as an electrician
wiring homes in the 60's, as a builder and as a woodworker.
However, I can also screw up and am not ashamed to admit it.

When I wired my own shop, I pulled in a 60a line to a load center
in my shop from my main household breaker box. I then got a
6-circuit little load center box and connected it up without much
thought. The box had 3 breakouts on the left and 3 breakouts on
the right. It was only when I began installing some tools that it
hit me like a ton of rocks: that's just 2 normal DP breakers and
2 SP breakers. In my own case, it was a simple task to pull out
the little box and substitute in a 12 circuit box with 6 knockouts
on each side. The little box became a load center on one of the
attics.

--
Nonny
When we talk to God, we're praying,
but when God talks to us,
we're schizophrenic.
What's the deal?

"Nonny" wrote in message
...
Just as a FWIW, let me admit to a minor boondoggle I did long ago. Let's
just say that I have a bit of experience as an electrician wiring homes in
the 60's, as a builder and as a woodworker. However, I can also screw up
and am not ashamed to admit it.

When I wired my own shop, I pulled in a 60a line to a load center in my
shop from my main household breaker box. I then got a 6-circuit little
load center box and connected it up without much thought. The box had 3
breakouts on the left and 3 breakouts on the right. It was only when I
began installing some tools that it hit me like a ton of rocks: that's
just 2 normal DP bakersre and 2 SP breakers. In my own case, it was a
simple task to pull out the little box and substitute in a 12 circuit box
with 6 knockouts on each side. The little box became a load center on one
of the attics.

--
Nonny
When we talk to God, we're praying,
but when God talks to us,
we're schizophrenic.
What's the deal?


Nonny, Thank you for saving me from learning that lesson the hard way!

Here is a relavant DIY-type link I found, in case anyone else is interested:

http://www.hammerzone.com/archives/e...nel/01/new.htm

Bill

Bill

Bill wrote:
....

Is there a rule that says a subpanel has to be a very short distance from
the main panel? I would position it about 10 feet away if I could.

That's cool...

Is anything (code) likely to prevent me from doing what I want with 15A and
20A 120v and 240v circuits from a subpanel (like having 10 of them)? As you
mentioned earlier, I'm likely to stay far below the 50A threshold
in terms of actual usage.

No, that's what subpanels are for -- just size it for the number of
circuits of the type you want/need and make it's service breaker the
same or smaller than the feed. If it's close enough, you can (I think)
get by w/o the local breaker/disconnect but it's certainly more
convenient and I'd likely not scrimp...

Good luck, it ain't rocket science; most of the Code is simply
formalizing what is common sense; it just takes somebody to point out
what that commonsense is for the first time and NEC is the standard.
The self-help books are pretty good in general at separating the code
legalese and turning that into what actually needs doing...

--

On Mar 15, 9:30*am, dpb wrote:
Bill wrote:

...

Is there a rule that says a subpanel has to be a very short distance from
the main panel? *I would position it about 10 feet away if I could.

That's cool...

Is anything (code) likely to prevent me from doing what I want with 15A and
20A 120v and 240v circuits from a subpanel (like having 10 of them)? *As you
mentioned earlier, I'm likely to stay far below the 50A threshold
in terms of actual usage.

No, that's what subpanels are for -- just size it for the number of
circuits of the type you want/need and make it's service breaker the
same or smaller than the feed. *If it's close enough, you can (I think)
get by w/o the local breaker/disconnect but it's certainly more
convenient and I'd likely not scrimp...

If they're in different locations I believe you're required to have a
local disconnect. This can easily be accomplished by inserting a
breaker, rated for the wire between the sub and main panels, into the
panel and feeding it "backwards" (the electrons don't know the
difference). This breaker should be marked clearly as the disconnect.

Good luck, it ain't rocket science; most of the Code is simply
formalizing what is common sense; it just takes somebody to point out
what that commonsense is for the first time and NEC is the standard.
The self-help books are pretty good in general at separating the code
legalese and turning that into what actually needs doing...

Yup.

On 3/15/2010 12:57 AM, Bill wrote:

Here is a relavant DIY-type link I found, in case anyone else is interested:

http://www.hammerzone.com/archives/e...nel/01/new.htm

Do what Lew said ...

I REPEAT: Do what Lew said!!

If you do what Lew said you will have no problems installing a sub-panel
of the right kind that will be flexible and codeworthy (you haven't got
into the issue of "grounding" a sub-panel yet, and, depending upon the
location, you will most likely need to address grounding with an
"insulated ground bar" which generally has to be purchased separately
from the breaker box and installed therein).

Save yourself some time, money, and redoing, by paying particular
attention to what Lew said!

Got the point yet?

If not, get it ... by doing what Lew said!

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Mar 15, 11:25*am, Swingman wrote:
On 3/15/2010 12:57 AM, Bill wrote:

Here is a relavant DIY-type link I found, in case anyone else is interested:

http://www.hammerzone.com/archives/e...nel/01/new.htm

Do what Lew said ...

I REPEAT: Do what Lew said!!

If you do what Lew said you will have no problems installing a sub-panel
of the right kind that will be flexible and codeworthy (you haven't got
into the issue of "grounding" a sub-panel yet, and, depending upon the
location, you will most likely need to address grounding with an
"insulated ground bar" which generally has to be purchased separately
from the breaker box and installed therein).

Save yourself some time, money, and redoing, by paying particular
attention to what Lew said!

Got the point yet?

If not, get it ... by doing what Lew said! *

--www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

I think he should do what Lew said to do.

"Robatoy" wrote
On Mar 15, 11:25 am, Swingman wrote:
On 3/15/2010 12:57 AM, Bill wrote:

Here is a relavant DIY-type link I found, in case anyone else is
interested:

http://www.hammerzone.com/archives/e...nel/01/new.htm

Do what Lew said ...

I REPEAT: Do what Lew said!!

If you do what Lew said you will have no problems installing a sub-panel
of the right kind that will be flexible and codeworthy (you haven't got
into the issue of "grounding" a sub-panel yet, and, depending upon the
location, you will most likely need to address grounding with an
"insulated ground bar" which generally has to be purchased separately
from the breaker box and installed therein).

Save yourself some time, money, and redoing, by paying particular
attention to what Lew said!

Got the point yet?

If not, get it ... by doing what Lew said!

--www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

I think he should do what Lew said to do.
==================

Does that include the installation of the epoxy workstation?

On Mar 15, 12:04*pm, "Lee Michaels"
wrote:
"Robatoy" wrote
On Mar 15, 11:25 am, Swingman wrote:





On 3/15/2010 12:57 AM, Bill wrote:

Here is a relavant DIY-type link I found, in case anyone else is
interested:

http://www.hammerzone.com/archives/e...nel/01/new.htm

Do what Lew said ...

I REPEAT: Do what Lew said!!

If you do what Lew said you will have no problems installing a sub-panel
of the right kind that will be flexible and codeworthy (you haven't got
into the issue of "grounding" a sub-panel yet, and, depending upon the
location, you will most likely need to address grounding with an
"insulated ground bar" which generally has to be purchased separately
from the breaker box and installed therein).

Save yourself some time, money, and redoing, by paying particular
attention to what Lew said!

Got the point yet?

If not, get it ... by doing what Lew said!

--www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

I think he should do what Lew said to do.
==================

Does that include the installation of the epoxy workstation?
..
..
..
..
..
..
..

you are mean......*smirk*

On 3/15/2010 11:00 AM, Robatoy wrote:

I think he should do what Lew said to do.

Y'all go ahead and laugh, now!

I don't think it is apparent to the average person just how much
experience and knowledge is behind that information, particularly with
regard to the sub panel choice/type.

Trial and error on this issue can cost the neophyte beaucoup $$ ...

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

1. Never enough outlets.

a) Try running 12/3 or to all you outlets, isolating the top from
the bottom and adding a switch to the bottom outlets if not to top and
bottom. This will allow you to leave those wall transformers plugged
in 24/7, but turn off power to them when you leave the shop.

b) Duplex outlets in the ceiling can serve ideally for the four
foot fluorescent "shop lamps" sold at Lowes, HD, etc for about $9. And
you can do the switched approach on these as well in case you have a
need for a DROP CORD approach to a tool - assuming your shop would not
be usable with the lights off e.g. nto enough window area to let in
sufficient daylight for working.

2. The wall on the house side might prove a treasure trove of points
to secure power, telephone line, cable TV, water, sewer access. Is the
floor of the shop even with that of the house/kitchen? Hey, how about
a shop sink/eyewash station replete with drain?

Swingman wrote:
On 3/15/2010 11:00 AM, Robatoy wrote:

I think he should do what Lew said to do.

Y'all go ahead and laugh, now!

I don't think it is apparent to the average person just how much
experience and knowledge is behind that information, particularly with
regard to the sub panel choice/type.

Trial and error on this issue can cost the neophyte beaucoup $$ ...




Okay, Okay, I WILL DO as Lew suggested--and gladly too! : ) : )

He wrote:

Install 2P-30A branch c'bkr for each 240V stationary tool along with
a 2P-30A, non fused disconnect at (within 10ft) the tool.


Question: So this redundancy is a good idea for 240v tools, but is not
as important for ones powered at 120v (which are even more likely to be
powered by conventional outlets wired in a series)?

Thank you,
Bill

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
...

Lowest cost, highest flexibility as follows:

125A MLO (Main Lug Only) 12/24 (12-1" poles/24;1/2" poles)
Load Center equipped with a 2P-60A Main c'bkr kit, neutral bar,
and insulated ground bar.

The above has enough capacity for almost any shop including
a fairly good sized commercial shop.

Install 2P-30A branch c'bkr for each 240V stationary tool along with
a 2P-30A, non fused disconnect at (within 10ft) the tool.

If you are going to work on a tool, padlock the disconnect switch
in the OFF position with a padlock that has only ONE KEY,
which is in your pocket.

The above is a standard industrial safety practice.

Simple, neat, and low cost.

Lew


Some of what I've learned since I read Lew's post the first time:

Evidentally, a load center is "Main Lug Only" when it doesn't have
it's own main breaker like the primary load center would probably have.

Load Units, such as made by Eator Cutler-Hammer use descriptions such as "12
spaces, 24 circuits".
If I learned part of my lesson yesterday, the only way you'd get 24 circuits
would be to use 1 Hot
and a 1 Common for every circuit. Is it typical for someone put two such
circuits under a single breaker--probably
not in a shop environment, huh? Even "lighting" seem too important to mess
around with.

So you use 2 spaces for a 2P-30A branch For Each 240v stationary tool in the
load center. So with four 240v tools
one is basically left with room for 4 or 8 120v lines. This raises the
question: Which is better--two circuits with 1 outlet each from 1 breaker or
one circuit with 2 outlets on one breaker? I think the former--for the
same reason Lew only wants one 240v tool on each line. This creates a new
question for me: in what sense does a 15A breaker support two different
circuits? Specifically, does
it only support the sum of the amperages of the two circuits?

I try to learn Something New everyday. Today was certainly no exception!
: )
Got to hit the hay for tomorrow's another day!

Bill

Bill wrote:


Some of what I've learned since I read Lew's post the first time:

Evidentally, a load center is "Main Lug Only" when it doesn't have
it's own main breaker like the primary load center would probably
have.
Load Units, such as made by Eator Cutler-Hammer use descriptions such
as "12 spaces, 24 circuits".
If I learned part of my lesson yesterday, the only way you'd get 24
circuits would be to use 1 Hot
and a 1 Common for every circuit.

In 120v circuits you would always use one Hot and one Neutral, plus a ground
for every circuit, so if what you are trying to say is that you can only get
24 circuits by wiring only for 120v, then you would be correct. You get 24
branch circuits by using mini breakers instead of full size breakers.
Mini's will give you two breakers in the space of one. Each half of a mini
gets wired the same way as a full sized breaker - a hot wire to the breaker
and the neutral and ground to the respective buss bar(s).

Is it typical for someone put two
such circuits under a single breaker--probably
not in a shop environment, huh? Even "lighting" seem too important
to mess around with.

A branch circuit is the outlets/devices that are controlled by a breaker.
That circuit can run to multiple outlets, multiple devices, or it can be
dedicated to just one outlet or device. With that in mind, you don't want
to run multiple branch circuits off of one breaker. You calculate the load
that a given circuit will potentially exhibit to the breaker, and determine
how many outlets/devices to string off that breaker. Lighting is fairly
straight forward since you pretty much know the load of every light - you
know the wattage of the lights you'll be using. Outlets are less straight
forward because the many types of things one may plug into an outlet make
for an undefined load. People generally stick with some common techniques
such as 8 outlets (or less depending on preference) per branch circuit in a
shop type environment. There's no real science behind that though.


So you use 2 spaces for a 2P-30A branch For Each 240v stationary tool
in the load center. So with four 240v tools
one is basically left with room for 4 or 8 120v lines.

Correct.

This
raises the question: Which is better--two circuits with 1 outlet each
from 1 breaker or one circuit with 2 outlets on one breaker?

It is best to think about how you will be using the area. It really serves
no purpose to install dedicated outlets all around your shop. It's not
likely that you will be using tools simultaneously such that you need 20A at
each outlet. You'd be better off wiring branch circuits of 4-8 outlets per
circuit. However - you cannot run multiple branch circuits from one
breaker. So - think about your expected usage and then wire in branch
circuits accordingly. My guess is you'll find that wiring 4-8 outlets per
branch circuit works out just fine.

I
think the former--for the same reason Lew only wants one 240v tool on
each line. This creates a new question for me: in what sense does a
15A breaker support two different circuits? Specifically, does
it only support the sum of the amperages of the two circuits?

It does not.


--

-Mike-

On 3/15/2010 3:04 PM, Bill wrote:

Install 2P-30A branch c'bkr for each 240V stationary tool along with
a 2P-30A, non fused disconnect at (within 10ft) the tool.


Question: So this redundancy is a good idea for 240v tools, but is not
as important for ones powered at 120v (which are even more likely to be
powered by conventional outlets wired in a series)?

You really don't need to install a disconnect for a dedicated circuit to
each machine in your home shop.

Is your shop in a garage?

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Swingman wrote:
On 3/15/2010 3:04 PM, Bill wrote:

Install 2P-30A branch c'bkr for each 240V stationary tool along with
a 2P-30A, non fused disconnect at (within 10ft) the tool.


Question: So this redundancy is a good idea for 240v tools, but is not
as important for ones powered at 120v (which are even more likely to be
powered by conventional outlets wired in a series)?

You really don't need to install a disconnect for a dedicated circuit to
each machine in your home shop.
....

And a separate circuit for every stationary tool unless you're a
production shop w/ an employee at every workstation continuously through
a shift is _WAY_ over the top overkill...

For a home, casual-use workshop as I gather this is, one or perhaps two
30A 240V circuits will be enough w/ outlets judiciously placed for the
major equipment you now have and some consideration given to what you
think you may want to add in the foreseeable future. You, as an
individual can never be using more than one at a time so, other than the
one tool, the only other loads active simultaneously will be the
potential DC and maybe a compressor.

Circuits for electric heat, etc., should, of course, be separate.

The "non fused disconnect" at each tool is, in ordinary terms, the plug
on the end of the power cord.

--

On 3/16/2010 7:12 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Bill wrote:


Some of what I've learned since I read Lew's post the first time:

Evidentally, a load center is "Main Lug Only" when it doesn't have
it's own main breaker like the primary load center would probably
have.
Load Units, such as made by Eator Cutler-Hammer use descriptions such
as "12 spaces, 24 circuits".
If I learned part of my lesson yesterday, the only way you'd get 24
circuits would be to use 1 Hot
and a 1 Common for every circuit.

In 120v circuits you would always use one Hot and one Neutral, plus a ground
for every circuit, so if what you are trying to say is that you can only get
24 circuits by wiring only for 120v, then you would be correct. You get 24
branch circuits by using mini breakers instead of full size breakers.
Mini's will give you two breakers in the space of one. Each half of a mini
gets wired the same way as a full sized breaker - a hot wire to the breaker
and the neutral and ground to the respective buss bar(s).

Mike is spot on as usual.

There is one gotcha to watch for when using a 220 c'bkr in a load center
which, by design, can be used with both full size and mini breakers:

When using these load centers it is possible to insert the full size
220/240v c'bkr into two adjacent slots that are both fed by one hot leg
.... the result being that you will get no voltage to the tool whatsoever.

Nothing dangerous will result, but you'll be left scratching your head.

Basically, just be careful when you install a 220/240v c'bkr that you
put it in two adjacent slots where each draws from a different bus. You
can do this visually.

On new houses I've even had licensed electricians do this (hopefully
accidentally) on more than one occasion. It is a PITA to be called on a
Thanksgiving morning when everything but the oven on a dual fuel stove
works. DAMHIKT

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Swingman" wrote in message
...

You really don't need to install a disconnect for a dedicated circuit to
each machine in your home shop.

When I wired my garshop I did two separate 240v circuits; one runs the
dust collector and the other the table saw and a 5hp compressor (neither of
which ever runs congruently). How often do you run more than one device at
a time?
Additionally, I ran four 120v circuits, two for power tools with
each wall having a mix of both circuits and a single circuit each for the
freezer and a "beer box."

Dave in Houston

On 3/16/2010 9:12 AM, dpb wrote:

And a separate circuit for every stationary tool unless you're a
production shop w/ an employee at every workstation continuously through
a shift is _WAY_ over the top overkill...

There may be one advantage (albeit slight) to wiring a "dedicated
circuit" for a stationary tool, particularly in shops in "garages" ... a
"dedicated circuit" is exempt from being GFCI protected in many locales.

At one time in the early days of GFCI, it was worth doing so as to not
have to deal with nuisance trips, which are no longer the problem they
once were.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Mar 16, 10:30*am, "Dave In Texas" wrote:
"Swingman" wrote in message

...

You really don't need to install a disconnect for a dedicated circuit to
each machine in your home shop.

* * When I wired my garshop I did two separate 240v circuits; one runs the
dust collector and the other the table saw and a 5hp compressor (neither of
which ever runs congruently). * How often do you run more than one device at
a time?
* * * * Additionally, I ran four 120v circuits, two for power tools with
each wall having a mix of both circuits and a single circuit each for the
freezer and a "beer box."

Dave in Houston

Proper beer boxes are 550-V 3-phase, no?

"Swingman" wrote in message
...

There is one gotcha to watch for when using a 220 c'bkr in a load center
which, by design, can be used with both full size and mini breakers:

When using these load centers it is possible to insert the full size
220/240v c'bkr into two adjacent slots that are both fed by one hot leg
... the result being that you will get no voltage to the tool whatsoever.

Nothing dangerous will result, but you'll be left scratching your head.

Basically, just be careful when you install a 220/240v c'bkr that you put
it in two adjacent slots where each draws from a different bus. You can do
this visually.

And, I've got three-phase! Which I've never been able to utilize . . .
except once - by stupidity.
12 or 15 years ago I finally got around to putting in a dedicated
circuit for my kitchen refrigerator. Only I plugged that 20 amp single pole
into one leg of the three phase. WOW! You can't believe how bright a 15
watt appliance bulb can get. The freezer fan was the only casualty.
Fortunately I had an appliance repair man that made Sunday house calls.
And, that side-by-side Kenmore lasted 20+ years.

Dave in Houston

Swingman wrote:
On 3/16/2010 9:12 AM, dpb wrote:

And a separate circuit for every stationary tool unless you're a
production shop w/ an employee at every workstation continuously through
a shift is _WAY_ over the top overkill...

There may be one advantage (albeit slight) to wiring a "dedicated
circuit" for a stationary tool, particularly in shops in "garages" ... a
"dedicated circuit" is exempt from being GFCI protected in many locales.

At one time in the early days of GFCI, it was worth doing so as to not
have to deal with nuisance trips, which are no longer the problem they
once were.

That _is_ one of the later NEC items I do tend to ignore in
non-wet/indoor locations like a shop...probably the most common one , in
fact.

Bill should, of course, follow local Code requirements (disclaimer )

--

Dave In Texas wrote:

12 or 15 years ago I finally got around to putting in a dedicated
circuit for my kitchen refrigerator. Only I plugged that 20 amp single
pole into one leg of the three phase. WOW! You can't believe how
bright a 15 watt appliance bulb can get. The freezer fan was the only
casualty. Fortunately I had an appliance repair man that made Sunday
house calls. And, that side-by-side Kenmore lasted 20+ years.

Dave in Houston

That reminds me of when, in my wee years, I made a "single-bulb x-mas
light bulb tester". 110v is just too much for one of those little
guys... Of course, it worked. ; )

Bill

Bill wrote:
Dave In Texas wrote:

12 or 15 years ago I finally got around to putting in a dedicated
circuit for my kitchen refrigerator. Only I plugged that 20 amp
single pole into one leg of the three phase. WOW! You can't believe
how bright a 15 watt appliance bulb can get. The freezer fan was the
only casualty. Fortunately I had an appliance repair man that made
Sunday house calls. And, that side-by-side Kenmore lasted 20+ years.

Dave in Houston

That reminds me of when, in my wee years, I made a "single-bulb x-mas
light bulb tester". 110v is just too much for one of those little
guys... Of course, it worked. ; )


In case I was too subtle, the bulbs that don't blow up in your face are
bad! : )



Bill

dpb wrote:
Swingman wrote:
On 3/16/2010 9:12 AM, dpb wrote:

And a separate circuit for every stationary tool unless you're a
production shop w/ an employee at every workstation continuously through
a shift is _WAY_ over the top overkill...

There may be one advantage (albeit slight) to wiring a "dedicated
circuit" for a stationary tool, particularly in shops in "garages" ...
a "dedicated circuit" is exempt from being GFCI protected in many
locales.

At one time in the early days of GFCI, it was worth doing so as to not
have to deal with nuisance trips, which are no longer the problem they
once were.

That _is_ one of the later NEC items I do tend to ignore in
non-wet/indoor locations like a shop...probably the most common one , in
fact.

Bill should, of course, follow local Code requirements (disclaimer )


Having recently purchased my home, I think it is the case that our local
code (central IN) requires GFCI on outlets within a short distance of a
sink/bath except older homes may be grandfathered out of this
requirement. However, needless to say, I am not an expert.

Bill