"Bill" wrote in
:


"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
...
Bill wrote:


Lew, I printed out your detailed directions. Thank you. I also picked
up the 125A, MLO, 12/24 Load Center today.
It looked good, met the description, and was only $29.99 (at Menards),
and before I knew it I said "I'll take it!".
I'll look at it more carefully and I'll check that everything about it
is truly suitable. I also picked up two 3/4" NM clamp connectors
which I believe is appropriate for #6 or #8 wiring between the main
and subpanel and--a wiring book. Also spent a while looking at indoor
wiring and absorbing info about all sorts of related things with the
awe of someone really seeing them for the first time. Maybe that's
part of new-homeowner syndrome, or maybe it's because I had an
"Erector Set" when I grew up (anyone remember those?).

When I got home I looked at the Menards circular and kicked myself for
not picking up "Ugly's Electrical References" on the NEC, on sale for
$7.99.

It is amazing how many home projects that I can consider now with much
less "fear and trepidation" than I would have had a little over a week
ago! Electrical plug not on the right side of the room--no problem! :
)

Best,
Bill



Bill,

If you get a chance I would definately recommend the "Ugly's Electrical
References" book. I have one at my desk and far and away the most usefull
reference book that I have. I do low voltage designs for a living and it
covers that as well.

Good Luck,
Steve

"Steve" wrote in message
. 153.163...


Bill,

If you get a chance I would definately recommend the "Ugly's Electrical
References" book. I have one at my desk and far and away the most usefull
reference book that I have. I do low voltage designs for a living and it
covers that as well.

Good Luck,
Steve


Thank you, everyone, for your suggestions. I read all of them at least 3
times.
I picked up Stanley's "Complete Wiring" yesterday. And went back to Menards
to
get "Ugly's Electrical References", but they were out. Also picked up a
14-terminal
ground bar (14 terminals + 2/0 Lug). I asked enough questions to make me
more
comfortable with what is required to installing my subpanel.
Spent a lot of time looking at all of the fixtures I'll need (including the
pricier GFCI ones).
They definitely did Not push those at me. As least I have some confirmation
that
what I am doing is consistent with local standards. I'll go the GCFI route
because
I think it's smart in my environment.

I'll take care to try to work smart. Somebody broke the lock off on what I
think may be my
main shut off (and as noted, this is important!). I may call the power
company.
Let me describe my electric:

Back of house has meter. Another meter is on the pole away from the house
and just below
is is a box with a 15A circuit breaker (which should probably have a lock on
its box)! I was
thinking this may be my main shutoff (and this is something I would really
like to know).
4 feet above this meter is a 3' by 2' by 2' metal box
(transformer/distributer?) which
makes quite a lot of noise, and 20 feet or more above that is a 5 or 6 foot
cylindrical thing (transformer?)
near which power lines flow to other poles with cylindrical things 3 or 4
houses away. What would be really nice to know
is whether the 15A circuit breaker might be my "main shutoff"--but any
relavant info would
be useful to me, I'm sure.

I promise to strive to keep learning on my own. Thank you for your
indulgence. I bought a pair
of linesman's pliers--almost time to learn to use them!

Bill

"Swingman" wrote in message
...
On 3/21/2010 4:36 AM, Bill wrote:
"Mike wrote in message
...
Bill wrote:


Another tip I learned while reading was to shut off all of the circuit
breakers, before shutting off the main one, before adding a new one.
Like Swingman says, this stuff makes sense, you just need someone to
tell you what makes sense.

Don't know where you learned that one Bill, but it's not right. There
is
no need to shut off all of the branch breakers before shutting of the
main
and there is no need to shut off the main before inserting a new
breaker.


Thanks Mike. I read it at a do-it-yourself website. Thank you for
pointing
out
that the web sites suggestion lacked integrity. FWIW, the justification
at
the
web site was that it would result in less of a jolt to the system to turn
off all the
breakers before turning off the main one. Anything to that?

Bill ... there are two things that you need to keep in mind before messing
with electricity as a DIY'er, and that WILL protect you:

1. Protect yourself, from yourself, and from the wiring mistakes of those
who came before you by turning off the electricity to the entire structure
AT THE SOURCE.

2. No one has ever been electrocuted by a completely, and verifiably
_dead_, un-powered, un-electrified system ... IOW, and as Lew indicated
... go to the actual SOURCE, turn it off, lock it up, and put the key in
your pocket until you're done.

Another thing I've noted about your posts ... you keep talking about the
damned NEC.

Forget it! Reading the NEC is nothing but a confusing waste of your time
and you will learn nothing of a practical nature from reading it ...
guaranteed!

Leave the NEC to the inspectors and kibitzers.

Instead, buy yourself a couple of BASIC books on home wiring, starting
with something that covers the basics with lots of illustrations like
these:

http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Guide...sip_rech_dp_10

http://www.amazon.com/Orthos-About-W.../dp/0897214404

You will learn more about the practical things you need to know to
actually wire your shop then you'll ever learn by reading the NEC, or even
hanging around the wRec asking scatter gun questions that are so
uninformed that they are difficult to answer, thus running a real risk of
receiving advice, or misinterpreting that advice, that may hurt you.

What you needed here you basically already have, good practical advice on
what to buy and what you need in order to design a good shop wiring
scheme.

At this point, your next step is to go learn how to do it ... and you're
simply not going to do that here.

Yep. Thanks, Bill


--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Bill" wrote in message
...

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...

Just a tiny, little, FWIW.

One time, a long time ago in a past life, old Nonny stuck in a
breaker for some little load in his shop. The panel was a 36
circuit 200a one. Somewhere, along the way, one of the wires from
a 30a circuit to a water heater snuck over into a corner of the
box and came up alongside the tabs where the front screwed to the
box.

Poor old Nonny was sticking the front cover back in place when the
sheet metal screw he was using (note: ALL flat ended screws
furnished with panels disappear/get lost/are taken/break etc.)
drove straight into the 10g. wire on the 30a breaker. The bang
and fireball were worth note, and from that moment on, old Nonny
made damned sure that no wires snuck up under panel face mounting
tabs ever again.

--
Nonny
When we talk to God, we're praying,
but when God talks to us,
we're schizophrenic.
What's the deal?

"Nonny" wrote in message
...

"Bill" wrote in message
...

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...

Just a tiny, little, FWIW.

One time, a long time ago in a past life, old Nonny stuck in a breaker for
some little load in his shop. The panel was a 36 circuit 200a one.
Somewhere, along the way, one of the wires from a 30a circuit to a water
heater snuck over into a corner of the box and came up alongside the tabs
where the front screwed to the box.

Poor old Nonny was sticking the front cover back in place when the sheet
metal screw he was using (note: ALL flat ended screws furnished with
panels disappear/get lost/are taken/break etc.) drove straight into the
10g. wire on the 30a breaker. The bang and fireball were worth note, and
from that moment on, old Nonny made damned sure that no wires snuck up
under panel face mounting tabs ever again.


Good story. My wife asked me why I spend so much time as I do mentioning
all of the types of accidents that can occur in a shop. I explained that
I'm trying to teach myself to avoid them. I think the main key strategy
is not to be in a rush.

Bill




--
Nonny
When we talk to God, we're praying,
but when God talks to us,
we're schizophrenic.
What's the deal?

J. Clarke wrote:


While there is no _need_, turning them all off is a good idea in that
when you turn the main back on you don't get every electrical device
in the house starting up at once. Usually a nonissue but if you have
a bunch of inductive loads you may not be able to reset the main
breaker without turning off the others or turning off the loads.


It's the "usually" part of the above that is operative. I'll be none of us,
and certainly no one in Bill's category will ever have to worry about this.
True point, but not really relevant to Bill's world.

And turning the main off before adding a breaker may not be strictly
necessary, but if you're a butterfingers like me it's a damned good
idea.

Oh you chicken...


Both are common sense. They do no harm and may do some good.

They do no harm, for sure. But, they really don't do any good either.
Unless...

--

-Mike-

Swingman wrote:


AAMOF, and from my observation, it's starting to verge on getting
dangerous.

Damn - I was going to say this earlier. I was getting concerned about Bill
reading a bunch of stuff (some good and some not so much...), from various
web sites, etc. and was going to suggest that after reading about him
starting to "probe" into panels based on what he was reading, was becoming
of concern.

Bill - I'd really suggest you hook up with an electrician and get some real
hands-on time. I'm a bit concerned that you might not really understand the
stuff that's behind the grey panel cover. That could be very dangerous.

--

-Mike-

Bill wrote:


Good story. My wife asked me why I spend so much time as I do
mentioning all of the types of accidents that can occur in a shop. I
explained that I'm trying to teach myself to avoid them. I think
the main key strategy is not to be in a rush.


Not to be in a rush is a component of a good strategy. As is, learning from
someone who can show you what to do. The internet has a limited usefulness
in that area, when it comes to learning from scratch. A good strategy is to
go to someone who knows, and will tell you what you need to learn, and not
to rely on your own two cents to make that determination.

--

-Mike-

Bill wrote:


I'll take care to try to work smart. Somebody broke the lock off on
what I think may be my
main shut off (and as noted, this is important!). I may call the
power company.

Bill - I am not trying to be insulting, but I am getting increasingly
concerned. I have to ask you (and I hope you will think about this
question...), how can you possibly work smart when you don't even know what
"may be" your electrical shut off? You really need more knowledge before
you move forward. Spend the money - bring in an electrician, and learn from
him while he works.

Let me describe my electric:

Back of house has meter. Another meter is on the pole away from the
house and just below
is is a box with a 15A circuit breaker (which should probably have a
lock on its box)! I was
thinking this may be my main shutoff (and this is something I would
really like to know).

Stop here Bill. You really need someone who knows this stuff to walk you
through this. Do yourself a favor and go that route.

4 feet above this meter is a 3' by 2' by 2' metal box
(transformer/distributer?) which
makes quite a lot of noise, and 20 feet or more above that is a 5 or
6 foot cylindrical thing (transformer?)

See above comment.

near which power lines flow to other poles with cylindrical things 3
or 4 houses away. What would be really nice to know
is whether the 15A circuit breaker might be my "main shutoff"--but any
relavant info would
be useful to me, I'm sure.

No - it is not and I'll repeat my recommendation that you have not learned
enough from you diligent research to enable you to safely embark on your
mission. You have a great deal to learn, but it is information you could
learn quickly enough if you're willing to invest the time. Bring in that
electrician.


I promise to strive to keep learning on my own.

That might possibly be your riskiest move...


Thank you for your
indulgence. I bought a pair
of linesman's pliers--almost time to learn to use them!


You're scaring me Bill...

--

-Mike-

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...

I promise to strive to keep learning on my own.

That might possibly be your riskiest move...

I know what you mean. I'm undecided whether wiring or running a TS is
riskier.


Thank you for your
indulgence. I bought a pair
of linesman's pliers--almost time to learn to use them!


You're scaring me Bill...

Linesman's pliers not an appropriate tool? I bought a wire stripper too.

I got scared last night, but I overcame it--and it took gumption! : )
I will proceed safely as Swingman suggested. I will turn off the electricity
in my work
area before I tear down my wall. I will see if my local "electric
cooperative" (corporation) can explain
a few things.

No one answered my question--what the 15A c'breaker below the meter on the
pole below the transformers(?) might be for--maybe a protector for the meter
on the pole? The lock rusted off of it and apparently the electric company
isn't concerned.

I will remember to proceed only with caution. I will learn where my main
shutoff is. I can't do very much until May anyway.
I will learn how to tear down a wall properly (without screwing up the
ceiling)! : )

Respectfully,
Bill



--

-Mike-

On 3/22/2010 12:02 AM, Bill wrote:

No one answered my question--what the 15A c'breaker below the meter on the
pole below the transformers(?) might be for--maybe a protector for the meter
on the pole? The lock rusted off of it and apparently the electric company
isn't concerned.

On your side of the meter that meters your electrical usage?

If it's on your side of the meter the electric company may not want to
even be involved, their involvement stops at either their side of the
meter, or in many places at the service head.

Do you have an outdoor light? A 15A exterior circuit sounds like it
would be for exterior lighting, or perhaps feeding an exterior
receptacle for garden use.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Bill wrote:


I'm equivalently excited about the electrical as I would be a new
woodworking project.
I came home with my subpanel feeling like it was Christmas--for only
$29.99)! I told my
wife I would not have been as excited about a $250 Solid-State-Drive
(for the computer).
So, with all due respect, there's something deeper than the greenback
at stake here.
It's more about control. Learning the skill to install switches,
lights and and plugs everywhere and anywhere
in the house I want. It feels good! Similarly, I bought a bunch of
drywall tools--so I can practice in the garage and do
nice paint and drywall work throughout my home. I think a lot is
about the accomplishment that comes from doing something myself.
Similarly, I'm interested in
landscaping my yard--it's a canvas. The idea of paying someone else
to do "my art" is completely unthinkable. When I mount several
outlets and light panels on my shop ceiling it will be done in a
more perfect than I could pay anyone to do, as no one cares about it
more than I do. Maybe I do all this out of love. I'm Vawey
passionate! : )

That's the perfect reason for learning to do things for yourself. I agree
with your motivation completely Bill. That said, somethings require more
knowledge, going into them than other things. Electrical work is one of
those. It's not black magic and it's not something you couldn't learn, but
it does bring more serious consequences when you do something wrong than a
bad cut in a piece of wood does.

--

-Mike-

Swingman wrote:
On 3/22/2010 12:02 AM, Bill wrote:

No one answered my question--what the 15A c'breaker below the meter on
the
pole below the transformers(?) might be for--maybe a protector for the
meter
on the pole? The lock rusted off of it and apparently the electric
company
isn't concerned.

On your side of the meter that meters your electrical usage?

If it's on your side of the meter the electric company may not want to
even be involved, their involvement stops at either their side of the
meter, or in many places at the service head.

As a board member (Dad was one of founding members/50-yr served on
board) I can GARONTEE that if you call and ask the kinds of questions
you're now asking they're going to tell you to keep your mitts off'en
any and every-thing even resembling more than a wall switch...


Do you have an outdoor light? A 15A exterior circuit sounds like it
would be for exterior lighting, or perhaps feeding an exterior
receptacle for garden use.

Certainly a far more reasonable hypothesis than a 15A breaker is going
to have anything whatsoever to do w/ the main feed...

Bill, again as others have said, this isn't to insult but...

Your level of experience here is too low to be trying this from scratch.
Those here w/ advice either grew up watching folks who already knew
how to do this and learned that way or have had other ways to get
training/knowledge. Clearly, your background is not "hands-on" --
nothing wrong w/ that, but it doesn't equip you to have the basics that
let you know what's what here.

If you won't accede and hire the work done, _at_the_very_least_ find a
neighbor or coworker or somebody who does have this practical bent and
get some tutoring. I strongly recommend continuing down this path alone
given what your present state of knowledge/experience is.

--

Swingman wrote:
On 3/22/2010 12:02 AM, Bill wrote:

No one answered my question--what the 15A c'breaker below the meter on
the
pole below the transformers(?) might be for--maybe a protector for the
meter
on the pole? The lock rusted off of it and apparently the electric
company
isn't concerned.

On your side of the meter that meters your electrical usage?

If it's on your side of the meter the electric company may not want to
even be involved, their involvement stops at either their side of the
meter, or in many places at the service head.


There's a meter on the back of the house (behind the main panel) and
another one on a pole 40 ft from the house. Below the meter on the pole
is a small box (15A), attached by conduit, to the bottom of the meter.
No exterior lighting in the neighborhood--it's dark. Maybe there's an
outlet I'm not aware of. But it doesn't make sense that if there were,
that it would be on the back pole (unless it were cheaper and easier
than running a 40' line underground). I've investigate further. My
neighbor may be a source of info too--it's his pole too.

Best,
Bill




Do you have an outdoor light? A 15A exterior circuit sounds like it
would be for exterior lighting, or perhaps feeding an exterior
receptacle for garden use.

Mike Marlow wrote:
Bill wrote:

I'm equivalently excited about the electrical as I would be a new
woodworking project.
I came home with my subpanel feeling like it was Christmas--for only
$29.99)! I told my
wife I would not have been as excited about a $250 Solid-State-Drive
(for the computer).
So, with all due respect, there's something deeper than the greenback
at stake here.
It's more about control. Learning the skill to install switches,
lights and and plugs everywhere and anywhere
in the house I want. It feels good! Similarly, I bought a bunch of
drywall tools--so I can practice in the garage and do
nice paint and drywall work throughout my home. I think a lot is
about the accomplishment that comes from doing something myself.
Similarly, I'm interested in
landscaping my yard--it's a canvas. The idea of paying someone else
to do "my art" is completely unthinkable. When I mount several
outlets and light panels on my shop ceiling it will be done in a
more perfect than I could pay anyone to do, as no one cares about it
more than I do. Maybe I do all this out of love. I'm Vawey
passionate! : )

That's the perfect reason for learning to do things for yourself. I agree
with your motivation completely Bill. That said, somethings require more
knowledge, going into them than other things. Electrical work is one of
those. It's not black magic and it's not something you couldn't learn, but
it does bring more serious consequences when you do something wrong than a
bad cut in a piece of wood does.


To try to ease anyone's mind, I will share with you that I called a
relative with 30 years electrical experience yesterday. I never actually
saw him do any of the work (a shame), but I KNOW he did it! He agreed
to drive three hundred miles each way and do the hookup to the main
panel and check all of my work once I've wired the subpanel and
everything that draws power from it. Feel a little better? : )

Best,
Bill

Bill wrote:
....

There's a meter on the back of the house (behind the main panel) and
another one on a pole 40 ft from the house. Below the meter on the pole
is a small box (15A), attached by conduit, to the bottom of the meter.
No exterior lighting in the neighborhood--it's dark. Maybe there's an
outlet I'm not aware of. But it doesn't make sense that if there were,
that it would be on the back pole (unless it were cheaper and easier
than running a 40' line underground). I've investigate further. My
neighbor may be a source of info too--it's his pole too.
....

Are you sure both of these meters are even active? If they were, you're
billing information should show readings from each.

If, as this now appears may be, this is a rural development, it's
possible one meter is the well/former outbuildings of a former farm
place or somesuch.

OTOH, it could also be simply remnants of a former installation that has
been abandoned in place or a service to a no-longer-existing barn or
other outbuildings, etc.

I reiterate that w/ such a lack of ability to even discern what you're
looking at you need somebody more knowledgeable to serve as a mentor
before you proceed as a barest possible minimum.

It is simply beyond the ability of usenet and/or the internet to provide
the education needed.

--

Bill wrote:

There's a meter on the back of the house (behind the main panel) and
another one on a pole 40 ft from the house. Below the meter on the
pole is a small box (15A), attached by conduit, to the bottom of the
meter. No exterior lighting in the neighborhood--it's dark. Maybe
there's an outlet I'm not aware of. But it doesn't make sense that
if there were, that it would be on the back pole (unless it were
cheaper and easier than running a 40' line underground). I've
investigate further. My neighbor may be a source of info too--it's
his pole too.

I cannot for the life of me imagine why there would be two meters on the
same service. I'd suggest you're seeing this incorrectly.

--

-Mike-

Bill wrote:


To try to ease anyone's mind, I will share with you that I called a
relative with 30 years electrical experience yesterday. I never
actually saw him do any of the work (a shame), but I KNOW he did it! He
agreed to drive three hundred miles each way and do the hookup to
the main panel and check all of my work once I've wired the subpanel
and everything that draws power from it. Feel a little better? : )


Much. Now - to satisfy that nobel curiosity of yours, make sure to let all
the air out of his tires so that he can't just hook it up and leave, so that
you'll have time to have him teach you things beyond just the work at hand.
Great opportunity to learn and gain some new skills.

--

-Mike-

On 3/22/10 1:04 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Bill wrote:

There's a meter on the back of the house (behind the main panel) and
another one on a pole 40 ft from the house. Below the meter on the
pole is a small box (15A), attached by conduit, to the bottom of the
meter. No exterior lighting in the neighborhood--it's dark. Maybe
there's an outlet I'm not aware of. But it doesn't make sense that
if there were, that it would be on the back pole (unless it were
cheaper and easier than running a 40' line underground). I've
investigate further. My neighbor may be a source of info too--it's
his pole too.

I cannot for the life of me imagine why there would be two meters on the
same service. I'd suggest you're seeing this incorrectly.

Agreed, the two meters would never agree anyways, as the meters themself
will have some loss.

--
Froz...


The system will be down for 10 days for preventive maintenance.

FrozenNorth wrote:
On 3/22/10 1:04 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Bill wrote:

There's a meter on the back of the house (behind the main panel) and
another one on a pole 40 ft from the house. Below the meter on the
pole is a small box (15A), attached by conduit, to the bottom of the
meter. No exterior lighting in the neighborhood--it's dark. Maybe
there's an outlet I'm not aware of. But it doesn't make sense that
if there were, that it would be on the back pole (unless it were
cheaper and easier than running a 40' line underground). I've
investigate further. My neighbor may be a source of info too--it's
his pole too.

I cannot for the life of me imagine why there would be two meters on the
same service. I'd suggest you're seeing this incorrectly.

Agreed, the two meters would never agree anyways, as the meters themself
will have some loss.

Rural areas may well have had more than one service drop at the same
farmstead -- we have two here; one for the well/farm buildings, the
other serves the house.

They're not the "same" service and I'm not suggesting that for Bill's
case either. I'm simply suggesting it's possible one of those is
possibly abandoned in place (specifically mentioned) and/or owing to
being on an old farmstead he does still have two drops. In the later,
they both should, indeed, show on the statements and they'll not have
anything to do w/ each other.

--

dpb wrote:


Rural areas may well have had more than one service drop at the same
farmstead -- we have two here; one for the well/farm buildings, the
other serves the house.


Yeah - I had not thought about that. Somehow I got it into my head that
Bill was saying he had two meters on his house service and did not think
beyond that.

--

-Mike-

Mike Marlow wrote:
Bill wrote:

To try to ease anyone's mind, I will share with you that I called a
relative with 30 years electrical experience yesterday. I never
actually saw him do any of the work (a shame), but I KNOW he did it! He
agreed to drive three hundred miles each way and do the hookup to
the main panel and check all of my work once I've wired the subpanel
and everything that draws power from it. Feel a little better? : )


Much. Now - to satisfy that nobel curiosity of yours,


: ) FWIW, I've built a career founded on my curiosity and eagerness to
pursue answers (as have lots of other folks that have enjoyed some
affinity for computers, engineering, fine woodworking, et. al.)!



make sure to let all
the air out of his tires so that he can't just hook it up and leave, so that
you'll have time to have him teach you things beyond just the work at hand.
Great opportunity to learn and gain some new skills.

Mike Marlow wrote:
dpb wrote:

Rural areas may well have had more than one service drop at the same
farmstead -- we have two here; one for the well/farm buildings, the
other serves the house.


Yeah - I had not thought about that. Somehow I got it into my head that
Bill was saying he had two meters on his house service and did not think
beyond that.

Or, it's possible in his case there's a shared well w/ a neighbor, maybe
and one is associated with that...it's impossible to tell and Bill
clearly doesn't know what he has for sure.

(And again, that's nothing personal; simply clearly so from the
statements made and questions asked. And, while it's good to ask, as
noted he needs more than a forum or some web sites are going to provide
so it's good a more experienced person is going to play that role.
Hopefully this individual's experience is adequate and knowledge/skill
set and work habits are all good...)

--

dpb wrote:
Mike Marlow wrote:
dpb wrote:

Rural areas may well have had more than one service drop at the same
farmstead -- we have two here; one for the well/farm buildings, the
other serves the house.

It's not rural at all! I'm in a suburb of Indianapolis established in
the 70s. I promise, I will get to the bottom of the "Two-Meter Problem"!

My horse--I mean house, came with a 16' barn (a tan "urban" barn) which
sits in front of the pole--virtually blocking line-of-sight noise made
by the 2'x2'x2.5' steel transformer/distributer. Anything that can be
done to subdue the noise those things make? I can conceive of some sort
of muffler and I'm willing to pay for it. That's actually a question
I've been saving for my power company.

Bill

Bill wrote:
dpb wrote:
Mike Marlow wrote:
dpb wrote:

Rural areas may well have had more than one service drop at the same
farmstead -- we have two here; one for the well/farm buildings, the
other serves the house.

It's not rural at all! I'm in a suburb of Indianapolis established in
the 70s. I promise, I will get to the bottom of the "Two-Meter Problem"!
....
It probably was then...

--

On Mon, 22 Mar 2010 15:57:33 -0400, Bill
wrote:

dpb wrote:
Mike Marlow wrote:
dpb wrote:

Rural areas may well have had more than one service drop at the same
farmstead -- we have two here; one for the well/farm buildings, the
other serves the house.

It's not rural at all! I'm in a suburb of Indianapolis established in
the 70s. I promise, I will get to the bottom of the "Two-Meter Problem"!

My horse--I mean house, came with a 16' barn (a tan "urban" barn) which
sits in front of the pole--virtually blocking line-of-sight noise made
by the 2'x2'x2.5' steel transformer/distributer. Anything that can be
done to subdue the noise those things make? I can conceive of some sort
of muffler and I'm willing to pay for it. That's actually a question
I've been saving for my power company.

Bill

You shouldn't normally hear much more then a hum from the transformer.
If its really loud you should have your utility check it. If its loud
enough they will likely change it out. The second meter is unusual
unless it was for something that predated your knowledge of what
happened at the property.

Mike M

"Bill" wrote in message
...


FWIW, the last two contractors I've hired (non-electrical) acted
like I was in the way ("are you
going to do it, or am I going to do it?"). I'm naturally drawn
towards people who have something
to teach me (and, conversely, I teach as part of my profession).

I'm equivalently excited about the electrical as I would be a
new woodworking project.
I came home with my subpanel feeling like it was Christmas--for
only $29.99)! I told my
wife I would not have been as excited about a $250
Solid-State-Drive (for the computer).
So, with all due respect, there's something deeper than the
greenback at stake here.
It's more about control. Learning the skill to install
switches, lights and and plugs everywhere and anywhere
in the house I want. It feels good! Similarly, I bought a bunch
of drywall tools--so I can practice in the garage and do
nice paint and drywall work throughout my home. I think a lot
is about
the accomplishment that comes from doing something myself.
Similarly, I'm interested in
landscaping my yard--it's a canvas. The idea of paying someone
else to do "my art" is completely unthinkable. When I mount
several outlets and light panels on my shop ceiling it will be
done in a more perfect than I could pay anyone to do, as no one
cares about it more than I do. Maybe I do all this out of love.
I'm Vawey passionate! : )

amateur---a person who engages in a study, sport, or other
activity for pleasure rather than for financial benefit or
professional reasons


Bill, I sure agree with what you say. I'm like you in a way, and
want to see and participate if reasonably possible in things done
for me. I've never been embarrassed to look over the shoulder of
a mechanic adjusting a carb or timing the distributor, have not
hesitated to "join in and watch" when they're doing my brakes etc.
It isn't for money and sure as heck isn't intended to "impress
them with all that I know." Instead, it's a bit like going to
school and watching a prof. working in the lab.

FWIW, I've also hired things done that I was perfectly capable of
doing myself, but just didn't want to do. About 15 years back, we
were having a big shindig at the house and I wanted my deck
pressure washed and restained. The guy kept promising to show up
and do it, but then would miss the appointment. Finally, I said,
"To heck with him," (or something like that), and got out my
pressure washer, cleared the stuff off the deck and from beneath
it, and washed it thoroughly. The following AM, I masked off the
house, got out my airless sprayer, bought 15 gallons of stain and
easily did most of the deck. The only glitch was having to send
the bride to the store for more stain. I did the deck inside and
out, of course, but also underneath as well.

Soon after finishing and replacing the furniture, grill fountains,
foliage etc., the guy showed up with his pressure washer in the
back of the truck. His eyes got big when he saw the deck and
wondered who I'd hired to do it. I told him, "Brad, there's a
difference between not being able or having the equipment to do
something, and just not wanting to do it myself."

--
Nonny

Our Congress and White House are like an
overflowing, fetid toilet. It’s time to flush it, though
knowing it will soon refill with the same filth. We need
a radical change where the productive people again rule.

I have 1000' or more of 2-phase High voltage onto and dead-end into my back
wood lot. I use two transformers. I have two meters.
One mailing address. Often - nasty as it sounds - they put the house on the
shop. And call the house not paid for 30 days...

So if you have two meters at the same address - pay attention and watch out!
Fee happy types - like the banks - are invading utilities.

Martin

dpb wrote:
FrozenNorth wrote:
On 3/22/10 1:04 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Bill wrote:

There's a meter on the back of the house (behind the main panel) and
another one on a pole 40 ft from the house. Below the meter on the
pole is a small box (15A), attached by conduit, to the bottom of the
meter. No exterior lighting in the neighborhood--it's dark. Maybe
there's an outlet I'm not aware of. But it doesn't make sense that
if there were, that it would be on the back pole (unless it were
cheaper and easier than running a 40' line underground). I've
investigate further. My neighbor may be a source of info too--it's
his pole too.

I cannot for the life of me imagine why there would be two meters on the
same service. I'd suggest you're seeing this incorrectly.

Agreed, the two meters would never agree anyways, as the meters
themself will have some loss.

Rural areas may well have had more than one service drop at the same
farmstead -- we have two here; one for the well/farm buildings, the
other serves the house.

They're not the "same" service and I'm not suggesting that for Bill's
case either. I'm simply suggesting it's possible one of those is
possibly abandoned in place (specifically mentioned) and/or owing to
being on an old farmstead he does still have two drops. In the later,
they both should, indeed, show on the statements and they'll not have
anything to do w/ each other.

--

"Bill" wrote in message
...

I'm updatiing my description. It's dark outside and drizzling. Both meters
are moving.


There's a meter on the back of the house (behind the main panel) and
another one on a pole 40 ft from the house. Below the meter on the pole
is a small box (15A), attached by conduit, to the bottom of the meter--no
more than a 3/8" gap betweeen them.
A much longer piece of conduit (3/4"-1") comes out of the bottom of the side
of the box and goes up into the back of the "transformer".

It's concievable that the meter is my neighbors as we both have power lines
from the same pole, in which case maybe it's his box (but it still doesn't
make sense that the conduit goes back up into back of the transformer).

My wife, who is pretty clever, and suggested turning it off to find out what
its for! : )

I think it's possible that my shut off in inside that 2'x2'x2.5' box I
mentioned earlier, it's unlocked and would be easily reachable with a
ladder. Another conceivable place is inside my meter's box--which has a
special clip on it. I'm not going tampering with either, so I have no needs
for any warnings! : ) Maybe I'll turn the small box off sometime though,
just to see what happens....

Bill

"Bill" wrote in message
...

"Bill" wrote in message
...

I'm updatiing my description. It's dark outside and drizzling. Both
meters are moving.


There's a meter on the back of the house (behind the main panel) and
another one on a pole 40 ft from the house. Below the meter on the pole
is a small box (15A), attached by conduit, to the bottom of the meter--no
more than a 3/8" gap betweeen them.
A much longer piece of conduit (3/4"-1") comes out of the bottom of the
side of the box and goes up into the back of the "transformer".

A meter pole would often have a disconnect connected to the meter, at the
pole. This was/is common in trailer hookups. I'm not sure about the (15A)
statement you make. What do you mean by (15A)? It strkes me as odd that
that there would be a 15 Amp disconnect directly off a meter. The conduit
going back to the transformer could just have a ground running in it.


I think it's possible that my shut off in inside that 2'x2'x2.5' box I
mentioned earlier, it's unlocked and would be easily reachable with a
ladder. Another conceivable place is inside my meter's box--which has a
special clip on it.

Unless you have a disconnect installed after your meter, you have no
disconnect. Disconnects are common for meter poles, and but they are not
necessary for a standard residential hookup. Your disconnect (in normal
circumstances) is the main breaker in your panel. The meter head serves as
the disconnect for most home wiring.

--

-Mike-

Mike Marlow wrote:

There's a meter on the back of the house (behind the main panel) and
another one on a pole 40 ft from the house. Below the meter on the pole
is a small box (15A), attached by conduit, to the bottom of the meter--no
more than a 3/8" gap betweeen them.
A much longer piece of conduit (3/4"-1" in diameter) comes out of the bottom of the
side of the box and goes up into the back of the "transformer".

A meter pole would often have a disconnect connected to the meter, at the
pole. This was/is common in trailer hookups. I'm not sure about the (15A)
statement you make. What do you mean by (15A)?

Sorry, all I mean by 15A is that the small (6"x6") box attached directly
below the meter on the pole has a single C'breaker inside marked 15A.
I've been describing it so much, I got sloppy.


It strkes me as odd that
that there would be a 15 Amp disconnect directly off a meter. The conduit
going back to the transformer could just have a ground running in it.

I think it's possible that my shut off in inside that 2'x2'x2.5' box I
mentioned earlier, it's unlocked and would be easily reachable with a
ladder. Another conceivable place is inside my meter's box--which has a
special clip on it.

Unless you have a disconnect installed after your meter, you have no
disconnect. Disconnects are common for meter poles, and but they are not
necessary for a standard residential hookup. Your disconnect (in normal
circumstances) is the main breaker in your panel. The meter head serves as
the disconnect for most home wiring.

Thank you for this information. Just curious, would I be likely to see a
C'breaker inside the 2'x2'x2.5' humming steel box with a number
coinciding with the "service number" on my meter? Although this box
wouldn't be reachable without a short ladder, it's latch is not locked.


Those of you who have been following this thread may find another true
story amusing: About 2 dozen years back when I worked on Fort Sill, OK
(home of the "Field Artillery School"), I was walking between buildings
as I did everyday and I picked up a small thing on the ground that
looked like a condenser (from a lawnmower), and it had 2 metal wires
coming from it. I gave it a close exam realized it wasn't a condenser
and untwisted the two wires (for saftety) and put it in my pocket and
went about my work for the morning. When I got back to my office, I
called the ordinant office and they came to visit me with "shields",
facemasks, gloves, a great big can...geeze...I told them I carried it
around it my pocket all morning--I wasn't skeered! It was sitting on my
desk and I told them I wold be happy to pick it up for them! It was a
"practice blast" used for simulating real blasts in the field, for
training. They told me not to pick up anything else I found! ; )

Bill

On 3/23/2010 10:04 AM, Bill wrote:

Those of you who have been following this thread may find another true
story amusing: About 2 dozen years back when I worked on Fort Sill, OK
(home of the "Field Artillery School"),

Small world ... I'm a graduate of "Comanche County Canon Cockers
College" myself. Took AIT there, and graduated from Field Artillery
Officer Candidate School after that.

I liked OK ... except for the 3.2 beer, and the cowgirls who could whip
your butt in a game of 8 ball and holler "next!".



--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Swingman wrote:
On 3/23/2010 10:04 AM, Bill wrote:

Those of you who have been following this thread may find another true
story amusing: About 2 dozen years back when I worked on Fort Sill, OK
(home of the "Field Artillery School"),

Small world ... I'm a graduate of "Comanche County Canon Cockers
College" myself. Took AIT there, and graduated from Field Artillery
Officer Candidate School after that.

I liked OK ... except for the 3.2 beer, and the cowgirls who could whip
your butt in a game of 8 ball and holler "next!".



I didn't mind the 3.2 beer. I used to practice my 8-ball at the "Little
Brown Jug" on Fort Sill Blvd. sometimes on the weekend. That was one of
the "classier" little bars in that area. I learned that I liked Korean
food at the little cafe about 4 doors down from there. I maintained my
enthusiasm for Korean food for quite a while. It made me sweat a lot
when I ate it, but I ate it anyway. Unfortunately, I've since had to go
with a kinder, gentler diet. I enjoyed the wildlife refuge at Fort Sill
alot--hiking, climbing, fishing... That was a nice amenity. Fond
memories...

Bill

On Mon, 22 Mar 2010 23:56:03 -0400, "Bill"
wrote:


"Bill" wrote in message
...

I'm updatiing my description. It's dark outside and drizzling. Both meters
are moving.


There's a meter on the back of the house (behind the main panel) and
another one on a pole 40 ft from the house. Below the meter on the pole
is a small box (15A), attached by conduit, to the bottom of the meter--no
more than a 3/8" gap betweeen them.
A much longer piece of conduit (3/4"-1") comes out of the bottom of the side
of the box and goes up into the back of the "transformer".

It's concievable that the meter is my neighbors as we both have power lines
from the same pole, in which case maybe it's his box (but it still doesn't
make sense that the conduit goes back up into back of the transformer).

My wife, who is pretty clever, and suggested turning it off to find out what
its for! : )

I think it's possible that my shut off in inside that 2'x2'x2.5' box I
mentioned earlier, it's unlocked and would be easily reachable with a
ladder. Another conceivable place is inside my meter's box--which has a
special clip on it. I'm not going tampering with either, so I have no needs
for any warnings! : ) Maybe I'll turn the small box off sometime though,
just to see what happens....

Bill

It sounds like if its your neighbors meter they might be using a
current transformer for the meter instead of running the load thru it.
I'm in a different local so not familiar with utilities where you are.
Normal practice would be to locate it where it enters the premise but
it would explain the 3;/4" pipe. Only other thing I could think of
would be street lights.

Mike M

On Tue, 23 Mar 2010 11:04:30 -0400, Bill
wrote:

Mike Marlow wrote:

There's a meter on the back of the house (behind the main panel) and
another one on a pole 40 ft from the house. Below the meter on the pole
is a small box (15A), attached by conduit, to the bottom of the meter--no
more than a 3/8" gap betweeen them.
A much longer piece of conduit (3/4"-1" in diameter) comes out of the bottom of the
side of the box and goes up into the back of the "transformer".

A meter pole would often have a disconnect connected to the meter, at the
pole. This was/is common in trailer hookups. I'm not sure about the (15A)
statement you make. What do you mean by (15A)?

Sorry, all I mean by 15A is that the small (6"x6") box attached directly
below the meter on the pole has a single C'breaker inside marked 15A.
I've been describing it so much, I got sloppy.


It strkes me as odd that
that there would be a 15 Amp disconnect directly off a meter. The conduit
going back to the transformer could just have a ground running in it.

I think it's possible that my shut off in inside that 2'x2'x2.5' box I
mentioned earlier, it's unlocked and would be easily reachable with a
ladder. Another conceivable place is inside my meter's box--which has a
special clip on it.

Unless you have a disconnect installed after your meter, you have no
disconnect. Disconnects are common for meter poles, and but they are not
necessary for a standard residential hookup. Your disconnect (in normal
circumstances) is the main breaker in your panel. The meter head serves as
the disconnect for most home wiring.

Thank you for this information. Just curious, would I be likely to see a
C'breaker inside the 2'x2'x2.5' humming steel box with a number
coinciding with the "service number" on my meter? Although this box
wouldn't be reachable without a short ladder, it's latch is not locked.


Those of you who have been following this thread may find another true
story amusing: About 2 dozen years back when I worked on Fort Sill, OK
(home of the "Field Artillery School"), I was walking between buildings
as I did everyday and I picked up a small thing on the ground that
looked like a condenser (from a lawnmower), and it had 2 metal wires
coming from it. I gave it a close exam realized it wasn't a condenser
and untwisted the two wires (for saftety) and put it in my pocket and
went about my work for the morning. When I got back to my office, I
called the ordinant office and they came to visit me with "shields",
facemasks, gloves, a great big can...geeze...I told them I carried it
around it my pocket all morning--I wasn't skeered! It was sitting on my
desk and I told them I wold be happy to pick it up for them! It was a
"practice blast" used for simulating real blasts in the field, for
training. They told me not to pick up anything else I found! ; )

Bill

If its the transformer enclosure you probably shouldn't be opening it.
You could have some exposure to high voltages. Can you post a
picture, I have a hard time envioning what you describe in comparison
to what I'm used to seeing.

Mike M

Mike M wrote:
On Mon, 22 Mar 2010 23:56:03 -0400, "Bill"
wrote:

"Bill" wrote in message
...

I'm updatiing my description. It's dark outside and drizzling. Both meters
are moving.


There's a meter on the back of the house (behind the main panel) and
another one on a pole 40 ft from the house. Below the meter on the pole
is a small box (15A), attached by conduit, to the bottom of the meter--no
more than a 3/8" gap betweeen them.
A much longer piece of conduit (3/4"-1") comes out of the bottom of the side
of the box and goes up into the back of the "transformer".

It's concievable that the meter is my neighbors as we both have power lines
from the same pole, in which case maybe it's his box (but it still doesn't
make sense that the conduit goes back up into back of the transformer).

My wife, who is pretty clever, and suggested turning it off to find out what
its for! : )

I think it's possible that my shut off in inside that 2'x2'x2.5' box I
mentioned earlier, it's unlocked and would be easily reachable with a
ladder. Another conceivable place is inside my meter's box--which has a
special clip on it. I'm not going tampering with either, so I have no needs
for any warnings! : ) Maybe I'll turn the small box off sometime though,
just to see what happens....

Bill

It sounds like if its your neighbors meter they might be using a
current transformer for the meter instead of running the load thru it.
I'm in a different local so not familiar with utilities where you are.
Normal practice would be to locate it where it enters the premise but
it would explain the 3;/4" pipe. Only other thing I could think of
would be street lights.

Thanks for your reply. The explanation you provided in your first
sentence above seems the most believable. It seems strange that it
would have a 15A breaker though, huh.

Thanks,
Bill


Mike M

On 3/23/2010 11:40 AM, Bill wrote:
Swingman wrote:
On 3/23/2010 10:04 AM, Bill wrote:

Those of you who have been following this thread may find another true
story amusing: About 2 dozen years back when I worked on Fort Sill, OK
(home of the "Field Artillery School"),

Small world ... I'm a graduate of "Comanche County Canon Cockers
College" myself. Took AIT there, and graduated from Field Artillery
Officer Candidate School after that.

I liked OK ... except for the 3.2 beer, and the cowgirls who could
whip your butt in a game of 8 ball and holler "next!".



I didn't mind the 3.2 beer. I used to practice my 8-ball at the "Little
Brown Jug" on Fort Sill Blvd. sometimes on the weekend. That was one of
the "classier" little bars in that area. I learned that I liked Korean
food at the little cafe about 4 doors down from there. I maintained my
enthusiasm for Korean food for quite a while. It made me sweat a lot
when I ate it, but I ate it anyway. Unfortunately, I've since had to go
with a kinder, gentler diet. I enjoyed the wildlife refuge at Fort Sill
alot--hiking, climbing, fishing... That was a nice amenity. Fond
memories...

Was a great place for Western Swing too.

There was an old fashioned beer joint/dance hall/roadhouse down the road
from Lawton, in Cache, OK, ... a place where I got to see many of my
musical heroes, like Hank Thompson, and many musicians who had been with
Bob Wills in the 30's and 40's, playing in bands who came through the
area ... I've actually had the pleasure of playing with many of them
since I first saw them there in the sixties.

Years later, and just for grins, I went back to OK and took the farrier
course at Bud Beaston's Oklahoma Farriers College in Sperry, to once
again get my butt whipped by Oklahoman, female pool players.

You're right, fond memories ...

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Swingman wrote:
On 3/23/2010 11:40 AM, Bill wrote:
Swingman wrote:
On 3/23/2010 10:04 AM, Bill wrote:

Those of you who have been following this thread may find another true
story amusing: About 2 dozen years back when I worked on Fort Sill, OK
(home of the "Field Artillery School"),

Small world ... I'm a graduate of "Comanche County Canon Cockers
College" myself. Took AIT there, and graduated from Field Artillery
Officer Candidate School after that.

I liked OK ... except for the 3.2 beer, and the cowgirls who could
whip your butt in a game of 8 ball and holler "next!".



I didn't mind the 3.2 beer. I used to practice my 8-ball at the "Little
Brown Jug" on Fort Sill Blvd. sometimes on the weekend. That was one of
the "classier" little bars in that area. I learned that I liked Korean
food at the little cafe about 4 doors down from there. I maintained my
enthusiasm for Korean food for quite a while. It made me sweat a lot
when I ate it, but I ate it anyway. Unfortunately, I've since had to go
with a kinder, gentler diet. I enjoyed the wildlife refuge at Fort Sill
alot--hiking, climbing, fishing... That was a nice amenity. Fond
memories...

Was a great place for Western Swing too.

There was an old fashioned beer joint/dance hall/roadhouse down the road
from Lawton, in Cache, OK, ... a place where I got to see many of my
musical heroes, like Hank Thompson, and many musicians who had been with
Bob Wills in the 30's and 40's, playing in bands who came through the
area ... I've actually had the pleasure of playing with many of them
since I first saw them there in the sixties.

Years later, and just for grins, I went back to OK and took the farrier
course at Bud Beaston's Oklahoma Farriers College in Sperry, to once
again get my butt whipped by Oklahoman, female pool players.


Very Cool (except the part about getting beat by the Oklahoman female
pool players--you probably subconsciously let them win)!

Bill

Mike M wrote:
On Tue, 23 Mar 2010 11:04:30 -0400, Bill
wrote:

Mike Marlow wrote:

There's a meter on the back of the house (behind the main panel) and
another one on a pole 40 ft from the house. Below the meter on the pole
is a small box (15A), attached by conduit, to the bottom of the meter--no
more than a 3/8" gap betweeen them.
A much longer piece of conduit (3/4"-1" in diameter) comes out of the bottom of the
side of the box and goes up into the back of the "transformer".
A meter pole would often have a disconnect connected to the meter, at the
pole. This was/is common in trailer hookups. I'm not sure about the (15A)
statement you make. What do you mean by (15A)?
Sorry, all I mean by 15A is that the small (6"x6") box attached directly
below the meter on the pole has a single C'breaker inside marked 15A.
I've been describing it so much, I got sloppy.


It strkes me as odd that
that there would be a 15 Amp disconnect directly off a meter. The conduit
going back to the transformer could just have a ground running in it.

I think it's possible that my shut off in inside that 2'x2'x2.5' box I
mentioned earlier, it's unlocked and would be easily reachable with a
ladder. Another conceivable place is inside my meter's box--which has a
special clip on it.
Unless you have a disconnect installed after your meter, you have no
disconnect. Disconnects are common for meter poles, and but they are not
necessary for a standard residential hookup. Your disconnect (in normal
circumstances) is the main breaker in your panel. The meter head serves as
the disconnect for most home wiring.
Thank you for this information. Just curious, would I be likely to see a
C'breaker inside the 2'x2'x2.5' humming steel box with a number
coinciding with the "service number" on my meter? Although this box
wouldn't be reachable without a short ladder, it's latch is not locked.


Those of you who have been following this thread may find another true
story amusing: About 2 dozen years back when I worked on Fort Sill, OK
(home of the "Field Artillery School"), I was walking between buildings
as I did everyday and I picked up a small thing on the ground that
looked like a condenser (from a lawnmower), and it had 2 metal wires
coming from it. I gave it a close exam realized it wasn't a condenser
and untwisted the two wires (for saftety) and put it in my pocket and
went about my work for the morning. When I got back to my office, I
called the ordinant office and they came to visit me with "shields",
facemasks, gloves, a great big can...geeze...I told them I carried it
around it my pocket all morning--I wasn't skeered! It was sitting on my
desk and I told them I wold be happy to pick it up for them! It was a
"practice blast" used for simulating real blasts in the field, for
training. They told me not to pick up anything else I found! ; )

Bill

If its the transformer enclosure you probably shouldn't be opening it.
You could have some exposure to high voltages. Can you post a
picture, I have a hard time envioning what you describe in comparison
to what I'm used to seeing.

Mike M., I will post a picture. I'll try to do it tomorrow.



Mike M

Bill wrote:
....

Thanks for your reply. The explanation you provided in your first
sentence above seems the most believable. It seems strange that it
would have a 15A breaker though, huh.
....

If it really is a 15A breaker it is _NOT_ a service (nor is it if it's
in 3/4 or 1" conduit).

BTW, post any pictures to a hosting site and the link to them
here--usenet is a text-only format (even if you're using a web interface
that makes it seem otherwise--I didn't look to see what your headers
indicate).

--