OK, Its been awhile but after read some recent post about the high quality
of HF tools I think we need to re-visit this from a different point of view.
Do you just try to buy the cheapest tools you can find? Does this mean your
work is solely based on how cheap you can make it? Are the two correlative?
Personally, I find nothing more frustrating than fussing with a tool that
won't hold up to the rigors of life in my hands. Underpowered, noisy pieces
of cheap junk that fail to do the job asked of them.

Yes, I am a tool snob. But not from arrogance but from experience. Twenty
years + as a mechanic and 40 + years as a (hobbiest) funiture builder have
taught me a very important lesson. You can't make money or enjoy using
cheap tools. Yes, the Snap-On tools I have cost too much, however, I still
have all of them and they still work as advertised.

My father, grandfather, great grandfather were all cabinet and furniture
makers or lumber men. The tools they passed down to me along the way are
all surprisingly high quality or hand made. I hope one day that I can pass
to my son and grandson's tools I'm proud of. Somehow I don't think anything
HF makes will make the list.

Just ranting after a long visit to Lie-Nielsen to buy their new socket
chisel set. I don't really need them but as I said, I love a quality
tool(s)!

Dave


--
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Teamcasa wrote:
Just ranting after a long visit to Lie-Nielsen to buy their new socket
chisel set. I don't really need them but as I said, I love a quality
tool(s)!


Dave,

Tell us about them socket chisels!!

After searching high and low for a decent imperial-measure registered
mortise chisel, I bit the bullet and waited out the 8-week backlog on
the Lie-Nielsens.

They were worth every penny (at $50 a pop) and every hour/minute/second
I had to wait to get them. Absolutely magnificent. I looked at a
sh!tty Robert Sorby "mortise" chisel I had next to the L-Ns, and
chuckled quietly. Then laughed out loud.

Then returned it to Lee Valley. (Unused.)

What are the socket chisels like? Would you say they make a good
paring set, or are the blades too stout?

"Teamcasa" wrote in message
...
OK, Its been awhile but after read some recent post about the high quality
of HF tools I think we need to re-visit this from a different point of
view.
Do you just try to buy the cheapest tools you can find? Does this mean
your
work is solely based on how cheap you can make it? Are the two
correlative?
Personally, I find nothing more frustrating than fussing with a tool that
won't hold up to the rigors of life in my hands. Underpowered, noisy
pieces
of cheap junk that fail to do the job asked of them.

Did you read a post here that referred to Harbor Freight as "high quality"
tools? I sure never saw such a thing. What I've seen universally have been
statements that there are some good values there and you have to watch out
for some stuff. The general rule of thumb (perhaps a bit tongue in cheek)
is that if it has a motor, don't buy it. That still leaves a good amount of
stuff that is well worth buying.

I've bought some stuff with a motor as well - not much, but some. I've
posted here before that in a moment of need I bought a $19 grinder there.
I've put it through all sorts of abuses and it's still running strong. I
imagine it will break at some point but so did the $120 Snap On grinder that
preceeded it. Right when I needed it the most.


Yes, I am a tool snob. But not from arrogance but from experience.
Twenty
years + as a mechanic and 40 + years as a (hobbiest) funiture builder have
taught me a very important lesson. You can't make money or enjoy using
cheap tools. Yes, the Snap-On tools I have cost too much, however, I
still
have all of them and they still work as advertised.

A lot of us have equal or more experience with a lot of tools as well and
some of us even hold as honorable that thing called a tool snob. I do. I'm
not one, but I sure don't think ill of a guy who is one. I've got a mixed
bag of tools. Most are good to very good quality. There's a ton of stuff
out there that is very good. It sure does not have to say Snap On to be
very good. I won't pay the money for Snap On tools. Don't need to.


My father, grandfather, great grandfather were all cabinet and furniture
makers or lumber men. The tools they passed down to me along the way are
all surprisingly high quality or hand made. I hope one day that I can
pass
to my son and grandson's tools I'm proud of. Somehow I don't think
anything
HF makes will make the list.

I buy my tools to use them and to use them reliably. If my kids end up
getting them, then fine. Right now I'm happier that they get use out of
them. I don't care what happens to them later on. In reality though - I
have no reason to doubt that my non-Snap On tools will pass down just
nicely. My Snap On grinder won't - it's in the landfill.


Just ranting after a long visit to Lie-Nielsen to buy their new socket
chisel set. I don't really need them but as I said, I love a quality
tool(s)!


Cool. A good rant goes right along with the right and privilege to be a
tool snob. Just be careful what you suggest about those who don't buy what
you choose to buy. Remember - there's a lot of very good tools out there.
They come from a lot of places.

--

-Mike-

"Teamcasa" wrote in message
...
OK, Its been awhile but after read some recent post about the high quality
of HF tools I think we need to re-visit this from a different point of
view.
Do you just try to buy the cheapest tools you can find? Does this mean
your work is solely based on how cheap you can make it? Are the two
correlative?
Personally, I find nothing more frustrating than fussing with a tool that
won't hold up to the rigors of life in my hands. Underpowered, noisy
pieces of cheap junk that fail to do the job asked of them.

I tend to agree with you, but there are certain tools that I use once every
two years for 5 minutes. If the HF tool will do the job for half the price,
then it is a good buy.
I wouldn't consider buying a HF tool that I was going to used constantly.
It will either wear out early, or perform poorly; either is a bad buy. But
for something that is rarely used, they are fine.

I made no characterization of its quality but in the last day or so I
referred to a $16.00 dial indicator I picked up at Harbor Freight.
While it neither as accurate nor as rugged as a $75.00 tool available
elsewhere, it is more than adequate for its purpose...that is, setting
up my woodworking tools. With it, I can get much more accuracy than a
brass screw and a feeler gauge. For that reason, I consider it good
value for the money.

I'd love to be a tool snob but I don't have the money. However, I can
do fine work -- .affordably -- with careful restoration of old, used
machines and the addition of some good aftermarket accessories.

wrote in message
ups.com...

Teamcasa wrote:
Just ranting after a long visit to Lie-Nielsen to buy their new socket
chisel set. I don't really need them but as I said, I love a quality
tool(s)!


Dave,

Tell us about them socket chisels!!

After searching high and low for a decent imperial-measure registered
mortise chisel, I bit the bullet and waited out the 8-week backlog on
the Lie-Nielsens.

They were worth every penny (at $50 a pop) and every hour/minute/second
I had to wait to get them. Absolutely magnificent. I looked at a
sh!tty Robert Sorby "mortise" chisel I had next to the L-Ns, and
chuckled quietly. Then laughed out loud.

Then returned it to Lee Valley. (Unused.)

What are the socket chisels like? Would you say they make a good
paring set, or are the blades too stout?

I'll let you know in 7 or so weeks!
Dave



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I have many HF tools, geeze where should I start, Lets see, the air tools
the angle die grinder is nice. The air drill-horrible. The wrenches -A JOKE,
measure them with a caliper they are no where near the measurment they
should be! The migwire, well I have no complaints there. Sometimes there are
good deals on the tools at HF, but I rely on my Craftsman hand tools, I have
yet to break a Craftsman ratchet or socket. I have no motor tools from HF.
And I sure as I'm standing here not going to spend my hard earned money on
SNAP_ON just so the snap on man can go to Cancun on my dime. You think your
paying high dollar for them tools, not hardly. I have a friend who makes 70%
on those tools. Hmmmm, makes me wonder, If I break a Craftsman ratchet and a
Snap on ratchet. I can take my sears brand run to sears and have a new one
in about 20 min, the snap on well I have to wait until the next time he
comes around. I think not. BTW, the friend that has a SO business, yeah he
owns 25 acres 3 boats 3 vehicles a plethera of hunting/fishing equipment and
4wheelers 5 of them! He has one truck that he runs and one that he leases
out. THATS IT BOYS! we're in the wrong business. We need to drive around and
sell screwdrivers for 30 bucks a shot.
Boy I can feel the heat from this post already!

Searcher

"Teamcasa" wrote in message
...
OK, Its been awhile but after read some recent post about the high quality
of HF tools I think we need to re-visit this from a different point of
view.
Do you just try to buy the cheapest tools you can find? Does this mean
your work is solely based on how cheap you can make it? Are the two
correlative?
Personally, I find nothing more frustrating than fussing with a tool that
won't hold up to the rigors of life in my hands. Underpowered, noisy
pieces of cheap junk that fail to do the job asked of them.

Yes, I am a tool snob. But not from arrogance but from experience.
Twenty years + as a mechanic and 40 + years as a (hobbiest) funiture
builder have taught me a very important lesson. You can't make money or
enjoy using cheap tools. Yes, the Snap-On tools I have cost too much,
however, I still have all of them and they still work as advertised.

Hummmm might be why I stepped up to a Laguna band saw.

On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 14:14:52 -0700, "Teamcasa"
wrote:

Do you just try to buy the cheapest tools you can find? Does this mean your
work is solely based on how cheap you can make it? Are the two correlative?

Is the only factor in the quality of what you make how much you spent
on the tools? You can somewhat make up for a lack of skill, but not
craftsmanship or originality or anything else with expensive tools.
You CAN compensate for lower quality tools most of the time.

Personally, I find nothing more frustrating than fussing with a tool that
won't hold up to the rigors of life in my hands. Underpowered, noisy pieces
of cheap junk that fail to do the job asked of them.

That is a perfectly valid opinion.

You can't make money or enjoy using cheap tools.

That is bull****. Maybe YOU can't, but I have and do. Some of my
cheap tools have paid for my expensive tools. I have a Ryobi 9" band
saw that's made me more than 10 times what it cost, and it's still in
the shop in the shadow of its new bigger brother, which would still be
considered a cheap tool by many even though it cost 5 times as much.

My father, grandfather, great grandfather were all cabinet and furniture
makers or lumber men. The tools they passed down to me along the way are
all surprisingly high quality or hand made.

And guess what. They had a bunch of crappy tools that served them
well enough at the time too. They just didn't get passed down.
Everything isn't an heirloom.

Should everyone learn how to sharpen on a $50 chisel? Should I reach
for that chisel when I need to get some dried glue off my bench?

I know a lot of people feel like they wasted money on cheap tools, and
they try to keep newbies from what they feel like was a mistake they
made. But there is a lot to learn, and postponing the beginning of
that learning while they save up for the unisaw and the aircraft
carrier of a jointer and the stationary planer and the $2000 band saw
doesn't do you any good. The best tool is the one in the shop being
used, not sitting at the store. There's plenty of time to buy better
tools, there's limited time to learn a lifetime's worth of things that
go into making great work. The months or years of extra experience is
worth a lot more in the long run than a couple hundred bucks we
'wasted'.


-Leuf

I've only got one thing to say now, AMEN BROTHER!

Searcher

I keep two of their $20.00 18 gauge nailers in my van for tacking on base
and trim. One of them is over a year old and the other is there as a
back-up. They do a great job. If my van is broken into or a helper steals
one there will be no tears shed. I'll just spend another $20.00. I have
bought other tools because it was cheaper to buy one at HF than to rent one.
I rarely use these tools but I have them if needed.

I do have good quality guns in my workshop for my personal use.


Craig


"Teamcasa" wrote in message
...
OK, Its been awhile but after read some recent post about the high quality
of HF tools I think we need to re-visit this from a different point of
view.
Do you just try to buy the cheapest tools you can find? Does this mean
your work is solely based on how cheap you can make it? Are the two
correlative?
Personally, I find nothing more frustrating than fussing with a tool that
won't hold up to the rigors of life in my hands. Underpowered, noisy
pieces of cheap junk that fail to do the job asked of them.

Yes, I am a tool snob. But not from arrogance but from experience.
Twenty years + as a mechanic and 40 + years as a (hobbiest) funiture
builder have taught me a very important lesson. You can't make money or
enjoy using cheap tools. Yes, the Snap-On tools I have cost too much,
however, I still have all of them and they still work as advertised.

My father, grandfather, great grandfather were all cabinet and furniture
makers or lumber men. The tools they passed down to me along the way are
all surprisingly high quality or hand made. I hope one day that I can
pass to my son and grandson's tools I'm proud of. Somehow I don't think
anything HF makes will make the list.

Just ranting after a long visit to Lie-Nielsen to buy their new socket
chisel set. I don't really need them but as I said, I love a quality
tool(s)!

Dave


--
Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.


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Leuf wrote:
On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 14:14:52 -0700, "Teamcasa"
wrote:
((Snipped))

You can't make money or enjoy using cheap tools.


That is bull****. Maybe YOU can't, but I have and do. Some of my
cheap tools have paid for my expensive tools. I have a Ryobi 9" band
saw that's made me more than 10 times what it cost, and it's still in
the shop in the shadow of its new bigger brother, which would still be
considered a cheap tool by many even though it cost 5 times as much.

Absolutely agree. Bought a $3 digital VOM when
most places sold them for not less than $20.
Still use it nearly every day after 3? years.
Bought a 12 V drill and wonder why I didn't buy
one a long time ago. Bought a $40 drill press and
greatly appreciate it when I need to drill a
precise hole. I really enjoy using them. Got
some older fine quality hand tools and I enjoy
them too.


((snipped))

-Leuf

When I see a beautiful piece of antique furniture I know the tools that
went into creating it were crude and far from perfect. It doesn't make
the beauty or quality any less in my eyes, actually I'm quite envious.
The beauty isn't in the tools, it's in the final product...and always
will be. I have a few chest-thumping SNAP-ON apes for friends and their
rants get old fast. They're basically knuckle dragging neanderthals
with an inflated opinion of their true disposable income and alot of
grease under their fingernails. I'd rather get the job done with a tool
I can afford and that can perform the task it is meant for. Whether it
be Craftsman, PC, DeWalt or HF. Being a 'snob' and brow beating others
because you spent 4x more than what a tool is worth is really stupid.

"Leuf" wrote in message
...

That is bull****. Maybe YOU can't, but I have and do. Some of my
cheap tools have paid for my expensive tools. I have a Ryobi 9" band
saw that's made me more than 10 times what it cost, and it's still in
the shop in the shadow of its new bigger brother, which would still be
considered a cheap tool by many even though it cost 5 times as much.

On the flip side of that coin, a 9" Ryobi band saw is really over kill
considering that you certainly can use a coping saw or Craftsman Jig Saw to
do the same thing.

I think that the need of better tools is all relative to the quantity you
produce. With few exceptions better tools will speed production.

Grandfather Richard Newell would say "its a poor workman that blames his
tools."

RIP


"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...

"Teamcasa" wrote in message
...
OK, Its been awhile but after read some recent post about the high
quality
of HF tools I think we need to re-visit this from a different point of
view.
Do you just try to buy the cheapest tools you can find? Does this mean
your
work is solely based on how cheap you can make it? Are the two
correlative?
Personally, I find nothing more frustrating than fussing with a tool that
won't hold up to the rigors of life in my hands. Underpowered, noisy
pieces
of cheap junk that fail to do the job asked of them.

Did you read a post here that referred to Harbor Freight as "high quality"
tools? I sure never saw such a thing. What I've seen universally have
been
statements that there are some good values there and you have to watch out
for some stuff. The general rule of thumb (perhaps a bit tongue in cheek)
is that if it has a motor, don't buy it. That still leaves a good amount
of
stuff that is well worth buying.

I've bought some stuff with a motor as well - not much, but some. I've
posted here before that in a moment of need I bought a $19 grinder there.
I've put it through all sorts of abuses and it's still running strong. I
imagine it will break at some point but so did the $120 Snap On grinder
that
preceeded it. Right when I needed it the most.


Yes, I am a tool snob. But not from arrogance but from experience.
Twenty
years + as a mechanic and 40 + years as a (hobbiest) funiture builder
have
taught me a very important lesson. You can't make money or enjoy using
cheap tools. Yes, the Snap-On tools I have cost too much, however, I
still
have all of them and they still work as advertised.

A lot of us have equal or more experience with a lot of tools as well and
some of us even hold as honorable that thing called a tool snob. I do.
I'm
not one, but I sure don't think ill of a guy who is one. I've got a mixed
bag of tools. Most are good to very good quality. There's a ton of stuff
out there that is very good. It sure does not have to say Snap On to be
very good. I won't pay the money for Snap On tools. Don't need to.


My father, grandfather, great grandfather were all cabinet and furniture
makers or lumber men. The tools they passed down to me along the way are
all surprisingly high quality or hand made. I hope one day that I can
pass
to my son and grandson's tools I'm proud of. Somehow I don't think
anything
HF makes will make the list.

I buy my tools to use them and to use them reliably. If my kids end up
getting them, then fine. Right now I'm happier that they get use out of
them. I don't care what happens to them later on. In reality though - I
have no reason to doubt that my non-Snap On tools will pass down just
nicely. My Snap On grinder won't - it's in the landfill.


Just ranting after a long visit to Lie-Nielsen to buy their new socket
chisel set. I don't really need them but as I said, I love a quality
tool(s)!


Cool. A good rant goes right along with the right and privilege to be a
tool snob. Just be careful what you suggest about those who don't buy
what
you choose to buy. Remember - there's a lot of very good tools out there.
They come from a lot of places.

--

-Mike-

I agree with you. As they say "You get what you Pay for". I have bought
"cheaper Router Bits" In order to make myself more familiar with how
they work. I bought a cheap Rail & stile bit, spent a couple of hours
fine tuningg them with a shim washer kit. I did make a very decent
hutch and the doors worked perfect. I am sure that if had purchased a
higher end rail & stile set, I would not had to spend so much time fine
tuning them. When I feel better at using these type of bits, I will be
purchasing a very high end product.
Teamcasa wrote:
OK, Its been awhile but after read some recent post about the high quality
of HF tools I think we need to re-visit this from a different point of view.
Do you just try to buy the cheapest tools you can find? Does this mean your
work is solely based on how cheap you can make it? Are the two correlative?
Personally, I find nothing more frustrating than fussing with a tool that
won't hold up to the rigors of life in my hands. Underpowered, noisy pieces
of cheap junk that fail to do the job asked of them.

Yes, I am a tool snob. But not from arrogance but from experience. Twenty
years + as a mechanic and 40 + years as a (hobbiest) funiture builder have
taught me a very important lesson. You can't make money or enjoy using
cheap tools. Yes, the Snap-On tools I have cost too much, however, I still
have all of them and they still work as advertised.

My father, grandfather, great grandfather were all cabinet and furniture
makers or lumber men. The tools they passed down to me along the way are
all surprisingly high quality or hand made. I hope one day that I can pass
to my son and grandson's tools I'm proud of. Somehow I don't think anything
HF makes will make the list.

Just ranting after a long visit to Lie-Nielsen to buy their new socket
chisel set. I don't really need them but as I said, I love a quality
tool(s)!

Dave


--
Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.



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In article ,
Teamcasa wrote:
...snipped...
Yes, I am a tool snob.


And a pretty good troll too!


--

Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland

In article ,
"Teamcasa" wrote:

[snipped for brevity]

Hello, my name is Rob. I'm a tool snob.

To me, there are four classifications of tools:

1) The 'I hope it will last till the end of the job' tool.
I have a few like that.

2) I need this tool for this job, but I can see that once I have this
tool, I will be using it more often so I better get a good one.
Most of my tools fit this category.

3) I have NO idea what I will do with this tool, I have no way to
rationalize its cost, but it sure is cool and I want it.
A few tools start here and then get moved to the category 2 column.

4) Small hammers. I have a thing for small hammers. I don't want to talk
about it.


r

Robatoy wrote:
Hello, my name is Rob. I'm a tool snob.


As am I. I've learned the hard way over the years that the only day I'm happy
with a really cheap tool is the day I pay for it. Every other day is filled
with accomodation and regret. Regret that I didn't buy enough tool for the job.
Accomodation to make up for the tool's shortcomings.

I bought a 4" Craftsman jointer when I was young and stupid because it was
cheap. I later found that it was incapable of jointing anything much bigger
than a pencil. I traded up to a 6" table top Delta. That still lacked
capacity. I ended up with an 8" North State that I wish I had bought when I got
the first one.

I've had to deal with two POS jointers for all these years. Why? Because I was
too cheap to lay out the cash required for a decent tool.

Are there better jointers? Sure. But what I look for these days is the most
bang for the buck. I generally are attracted to what the magazine ratings refer
to as "Best-Buys".

I finally put my money where my mouth was when I went looking for my first band
saw. I bought an 18" Rikon and am completely satisfied with it. Fine
Woodworking declared it a "best buy" about three years ago and so I bought one
when Woodcrafter first started carrying them.

I don't want any more crappy tools. Harbor Freight is suitable for buying
magnets and clamps...



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

VE

"Shopdog" wrote in message
news:BYA_f.2386$wH1.1960@trnddc03...
I have many HF tools, geeze where should I start, Lets see, the air tools
the angle die grinder is nice. The air drill-horrible. The wrenches -A
JOKE, measure them with a caliper they are no where near the measurment
they should be! The migwire, well I have no complaints there. Sometimes
there are good deals on the tools at HF, but I rely on my Craftsman hand
tools, I have yet to break a Craftsman ratchet or socket. I have no motor
tools from HF. And I sure as I'm standing here not going to spend my hard
earned money on SNAP_ON just so the snap on man can go to Cancun on my
dime. You think your paying high dollar for them tools, not hardly. I have
a friend who makes 70% on those tools. Hmmmm, makes me wonder, If I break a
Craftsman ratchet and a Snap on ratchet. I can take my sears brand run to
sears and have a new one in about 20 min, the snap on well I have to wait
until the next time he comes around. I think not. BTW, the friend that has
a SO business, yeah he owns 25 acres 3 boats 3 vehicles a plethera of
hunting/fishing equipment and 4wheelers 5 of them! He has one truck that he
runs and one that he leases out. THATS IT BOYS! we're in the wrong
business. We need to drive around and sell screwdrivers for 30 bucks a
shot.
Boy I can feel the heat from this post already!

Searcher


I used Craftsman tools when I started out as a mechanic in the 60's. But
after I started making weekly trips to Sears to have broken and worn out
tools replaced, I started buying Snap-On and MAC tools. Eventually, all but
a scant few tools were replaced.

One final straw was a Craftsman 1/2" breaker bar. While pulling hard on it,
the drive end twisted off and I fell backwards against the corner of a
workbench hitting me square in the middle of my back! Ouch! I borrowed a
Proto bar from a co-worker and it too twisted off.
The Snap-On guy came in, I bought a 1/2" bar from him, slipped a 4' pipe
over the end for more leverage and CRACK, the nut was loose and the Snap-On
bar was not phased.

Upon returning it to Sears, I was told that Craftsman tools were not under
warranty when used by the professional mechanic. I don't know if that true
today but it cured me. I do however, recommend them for the home mechanic.
For the limited use they receive in a hobbyist environment, they are fine.

In addtion, I could care less if my Snap-On (or other tool seller) makes a
fine profit from me. If I'm getting what I want, good for him.

Dave




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snip
Dave
You can't make money or enjoy using cheap tools.
"Leuf"
That is bull****. Maybe YOU can't, but I have and do. Some of my
cheap tools have paid for my expensive tools. I have a Ryobi 9" band
saw that's made me more than 10 times what it cost, and it's still in
the shop in the shadow of its new bigger brother, which would still be
considered a cheap tool by many even though it cost 5 times as much.
snip
Should everyone learn how to sharpen on a $50 chisel? Should I reach
for that chisel when I need to get some dried glue off my bench?

I'm not talking about the tools I consider consumable. The cheap putty
knifes, glue removers, saw blades for cutting nail imbedded wood,
screwdrivers used for everything except driving screws, etc. We all have
these and will continue to buy them as needed.

I'm talking about tools you love to use. Tools that make a difference when
used. Just try to plane a piece of curly maple with the $25 Chinese plane,
then grab the Lie-Nielson or the Knight smother. The whole point will all
become quite clear.

Dave




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Robatoy wrote:
Hello, my name is Rob. I'm a tool snob.

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
As am I. I've learned the hard way over the years that the only day I'm
happy with a really cheap tool is the day I pay for it. Every other day
is filled with accomodation and regret. Regret that I didn't buy enough
tool for the job. Accomodation to make up for the tool's shortcomings.
snip
I don't want any more crappy tools. Harbor Freight is suitable for buying
magnets and clamps...

Well said.
Dave



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Teamcasa wrote:
OK, Its been awhile but after read some recent post about the high quality
of HF tools I think we need to re-visit this from a different point of view.
Do you just try to buy the cheapest tools you can find? Does this mean your
work is solely based on how cheap you can make it? Are the two correlative?
Personally, I find nothing more frustrating than fussing with a tool that
won't hold up to the rigors of life in my hands. Underpowered, noisy pieces
of cheap junk that fail to do the job asked of them.

Yes, I am a tool snob. But not from arrogance but from experience. Twenty
years + as a mechanic and 40 + years as a (hobbiest) funiture builder have
taught me a very important lesson. You can't make money or enjoy using
cheap tools. Yes, the Snap-On tools I have cost too much, however, I still
have all of them and they still work as advertised.

My father, grandfather, great grandfather were all cabinet and furniture
makers or lumber men. The tools they passed down to me along the way are
all surprisingly high quality or hand made. I hope one day that I can pass
to my son and grandson's tools I'm proud of. Somehow I don't think anything
HF makes will make the list.

Just ranting after a long visit to Lie-Nielsen to buy their new socket
chisel set. I don't really need them but as I said, I love a quality
tool(s)!

I don't think I'm the person to ask this question. It made me realize,
I'm to good for an L-N dovetail saw.

8-o

er
--
email not valid

Robatoy wrote:
In article ,
"Teamcasa" wrote:

[snipped for brevity]

Hello, my name is Rob. I'm a tool snob.

To me, there are four classifications of tools:

1) The 'I hope it will last till the end of the job' tool.
I have a few like that.

2) I need this tool for this job, but I can see that once I have this
tool, I will be using it more often so I better get a good one.
Most of my tools fit this category.

3) I have NO idea what I will do with this tool, I have no way to
rationalize its cost, but it sure is cool and I want it.
A few tools start here and then get moved to the category 2 column.

4) Small hammers. I have a thing for small hammers. I don't want to talk
about it.


r


you sound like me, right down to the small hammers bit....

Teamcasa wrote:
Robatoy wrote:
Hello, my name is Rob. I'm a tool snob.
"Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
As am I. I've learned the hard way over the years that the only day I'm
happy with a really cheap tool is the day I pay for it. Every other day
is filled with accomodation and regret. Regret that I didn't buy enough
tool for the job. Accomodation to make up for the tool's shortcomings.
snip
I don't want any more crappy tools. Harbor Freight is suitable for buying
magnets and clamps...

Well said.
Dave



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disposable paint brushes and bench bruches(foxtail brushes to the ex-
navy). And their 2# brass/copper hammers make nice carving mallets with
the handle cut off.
Joe

On Tue, 11 Apr 2006 02:56:04 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:


"Leuf" wrote in message
.. .

That is bull****. Maybe YOU can't, but I have and do. Some of my
cheap tools have paid for my expensive tools. I have a Ryobi 9" band
saw that's made me more than 10 times what it cost, and it's still in
the shop in the shadow of its new bigger brother, which would still be
considered a cheap tool by many even though it cost 5 times as much.

On the flip side of that coin, a 9" Ryobi band saw is really over kill
considering that you certainly can use a coping saw or Craftsman Jig Saw to
do the same thing.

I have my grandfather's coping saw, but I wouldn't exactly call it an
heirloom I wonder does anyone even make a super deluxe coping saw?
It's gotta have nickel plating and a quick blade tension lever.

I think that the need of better tools is all relative to the quantity you
produce. With few exceptions better tools will speed production.

Yep. And if you feel like you are being held back by the tool by all
means go for the super deluxe version if you can afford it. But that
doesn't mean the previous tool wasn't worth having just because you
outgrew it. Until it breaks or I run out of space, that old Ryobi is
going to stay in the shop and reduce the number of times I have to
change blades on the new one, and use less electricity for the small
jobs. When you've got yer Laguna all set up for resawing and you need
to make one curved cut I bet you wish your old one was still around


-Leuf

I wish I had something better to say then why are you so hard on your tools?
I have yet to break a craftsman tool, and it can't be because I work any
less than you. There is a proper tool for each and every job. If you use a
3/8 ratchet on something that should get a 1/2 then you are asking for
breakage.

Searcher

On Tue, 11 Apr 2006 10:01:40 -0700, "Teamcasa"
wrote:

I'm talking about tools you love to use. Tools that make a difference when
used. Just try to plane a piece of curly maple with the $25 Chinese plane,
then grab the Lie-Nielson or the Knight smother. The whole point will all
become quite clear.

When you ask a tool to do a job it wasn't intended to do, guess what,
it doesn't perform well. If you take a cheap a tool to an expensive
piece of wood and wreck it you're an idiot, not for buying the tool
but for having happen exactly what you'd expect to happen and then
blaming the tool. If you feel like your tools are holding you back
then by all means get a better tool for the task at hand. But don't
insinuate that anyone who doesn't spend as much on tools as you
doesn't care about the quality of their work as much as you do.


-Leuf

On 10 Apr 2006 19:37:29 -0700, "CyBrShRk" wrote:

When I see a beautiful piece of antique furniture I know the tools that
went into creating it were crude and far from perfect. It doesn't make
the beauty or quality any less in my eyes, actually I'm quite envious.
The beauty isn't in the tools, it's in the final product...and always
will be. I have a few chest-thumping SNAP-ON apes for friends and their
rants get old fast. They're basically knuckle dragging neanderthals
with an inflated opinion of their true disposable income and alot of
grease under their fingernails. I'd rather get the job done with a tool
I can afford and that can perform the task it is meant for. Whether it
be Craftsman, PC, DeWalt or HF. Being a 'snob' and brow beating others
because you spent 4x more than what a tool is worth is really stupid.


My brother has a decent collection of Snap-On tools. He bought them
from the mentally challenged semi-minimum wage "mechanics" at the car
dealership he used to work for. These folks would regularly go
bankrupt and, just before doing so, sell the Snap-On's for pennies on
the dollar, as long as it was cash. The Snap-On truck would start
selling to these folks shortly after they came out of bankruptcy.
"Hey, buy this $30 screwdriver and just pay $2 per week for the next 2
years". The truck was always there on pay day to collect - and sell
more tools.

Dave Hall

"Leuf" wrote in message
news better tools will speed production.


When you've got yer Laguna all set up for resawing and you need
to make one curved cut I bet you wish your old one was still around


Actually my old one was such a hassle to use that I pulled out the Milwaukee
jig saw as the tool of preference if it could do the job. I'll probably not
leave the Laguna in resaw mode and probably leave a 1/2" blade on it most of
the time. With that in mind, a strong reason for upgrading was to be able
to enjoy faster blade changes. The Laguna now uses thumb screws for the side
and thrust ceramic adjustments. No long reaches in to cramped areas with
hex wrenches any more.

1/2" breaker bar. 4 foot pipe. Tells me loads about him.

"Shopdog" wrote in message
news:ZoV_f.7688$8g3.431@trnddc02...
I wish I had something better to say then why are you so hard on your
tools?
I have yet to break a craftsman tool, and it can't be because I work any
less than you. There is a proper tool for each and every job. If you use a
3/8 ratchet on something that should get a 1/2 then you are asking for
breakage.

Searcher

"Teamcasa" wrote in
:


wrote in message
ups.com...

Teamcasa wrote:
Just ranting after a long visit to Lie-Nielsen to buy their new
socket chisel set. I don't really need them but as I said, I love a
quality tool(s)!


Dave,

Tell us about them socket chisels!!

After searching high and low for a decent imperial-measure registered
mortise chisel, I bit the bullet and waited out the 8-week backlog on
the Lie-Nielsens.

They were worth every penny (at $50 a pop) and every
hour/minute/second I had to wait to get them. Absolutely
magnificent. I looked at a sh!tty Robert Sorby "mortise" chisel I
had next to the L-Ns, and chuckled quietly. Then laughed out loud.

What are the socket chisels like? Would you say they make a good
paring set, or are the blades too stout?

I'll let you know in 7 or so weeks!
Dave


The ones I got were/are just fine. Paring/sash chisels, plus a mortise
chisel.

The only thing I bought at the woodworking show last weekend was another
LN handplane...

Patriarch

I doubt if I can add much to this marathon. You get what you pay for.

However, I have had a couple of fairly good experinces with HF. In a weak
moment I paid $99 for one of their mortising machines about five years ago.
Know what? It cuts square holes. The hold-down hardware sucks but that is
true of some of the much more expensive machines. It probably is not my
last mortiser but it works fine for what I do.

Some of their $12 to $25 nailers are amazingly durable. I know a finish
carpenter who is almost ashamed of them but can't wear them out.

RonB

To me HF is great for those wierd 1 off tools that you may only use once and
cant justify spending big coin on. When you need that 7th fetser valve
changer - that you know you will only use 1 time - it doesnt make sense to
spend big bux on a quality tool.

Ie - Their 12" metal cutoff saw - I picked it up a while back for 39 bux - I
had to cut some flat metal stock for something I was building - I rarely
work w/ metal and it was better than using a hacksaw and for 39 bux - It was
worth my time to buy it.
Since its initial use (about 3 hours worth) Ive used it a hand full of times
and its been great.

To me - for those things - I dont mind buying HF - 39 vs 199 for the PC
metal cut off.
Now the tools I make my living with - I have no problem at all going top of
the line or very close to it.

Just my .02


"Teamcasa" wrote in message
...
OK, Its been awhile but after read some recent post about the high quality
of HF tools I think we need to re-visit this from a different point of
view.
Do you just try to buy the cheapest tools you can find? Does this mean
your work is solely based on how cheap you can make it? Are the two
correlative?
Personally, I find nothing more frustrating than fussing with a tool that
won't hold up to the rigors of life in my hands. Underpowered, noisy
pieces of cheap junk that fail to do the job asked of them.

Yes, I am a tool snob. But not from arrogance but from experience.
Twenty years + as a mechanic and 40 + years as a (hobbiest) funiture
builder have taught me a very important lesson. You can't make money or
enjoy using cheap tools. Yes, the Snap-On tools I have cost too much,
however, I still have all of them and they still work as advertised.

My father, grandfather, great grandfather were all cabinet and furniture
makers or lumber men. The tools they passed down to me along the way are
all surprisingly high quality or hand made. I hope one day that I can
pass to my son and grandson's tools I'm proud of. Somehow I don't think
anything HF makes will make the list.

Just ranting after a long visit to Lie-Nielsen to buy their new socket
chisel set. I don't really need them but as I said, I love a quality
tool(s)!

Dave


--
Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.


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On Tue, 11 Apr 2006 13:30:43 +0000, Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:

Robatoy wrote:
Hello, my name is Rob. I'm a tool snob.


As am I. I've learned the hard way over the years that the only day I'm
happy with a really cheap tool is the day I pay for it. Every other day
is filled with accomodation and regret. Regret that I didn't buy enough
tool for the job. Accomodation to make up for the tool's shortcomings.

I bought a 4" Craftsman jointer when I was young and stupid because it was
cheap. I later found that it was incapable of jointing anything much
bigger than a pencil. I traded up to a 6" table top Delta. That still
lacked capacity. I ended up with an 8" North State that I wish I had
bought when I got the first one.

I've had to deal with two POS jointers for all these years. Why? Because
I was too cheap to lay out the cash required for a decent tool.

Are there better jointers? Sure. But what I look for these days is the
most bang for the buck. I generally are attracted to what the magazine
ratings refer to as "Best-Buys".

I finally put my money where my mouth was when I went looking for my first
band saw. I bought an 18" Rikon and am completely satisfied with it.
Fine Woodworking declared it a "best buy" about three years ago and so I
bought one when Woodcrafter first started carrying them.

I don't want any more crappy tools. Harbor Freight is suitable for buying
magnets and clamps...

My personal rules of thumb for HF:

1) Never buy anything whose failure could cause injury.
2) Never buy anything whose failure could ruin a project.

That doesn't leave much.

--
-Joe Wells

"Here stands baseball's perfect warrior. Here stands baseball's perfect knight."
-Ford Frick upon Stan Musial's retirement

"RonB" wrote in message
news:auX_f.543$9c6.304@dukeread11...
I doubt if I can add much to this marathon. You get what you pay for.


Nope. You pay for what you get. Matching it to the task and the wallet
used to be your job. Now, it would seem, it's the job of those "greedy big
industrialists" to look out for your interests and provide whatever you want
for the price you're willing. Or else you call your lawyer.

Should be a sign over the door - "lower your expectations, all ye who enter
here." That way you'd remember that it was price and availability that
brought you.

"RonB"
I doubt if I can add much to this marathon. You get what you pay for.

"George"
Nope. You pay for what you get. Matching it to the task and the wallet
used to be your job. Now, it would seem, it's the job of those "greedy
big industrialists" to look out for your interests and provide whatever
you want for the price you're willing. Or else you call your lawyer.

Should be a sign over the door - "lower your expectations, all ye who
enter here." That way you'd remember that it was price and availability
that brought you.
How true that is!
Dave



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"CW"
1/2" breaker bar. 4 foot pipe. Tells me loads about him.

Yeah, like you've never had to do that!

Dave





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On Tue, 11 Apr 2006 10:01:40 -0700, "Teamcasa"
wrote:


I'm talking about tools you love to use. Tools that make a
difference when
used. Just try to plane a piece of curly maple with the $25 Chinese
plane,
then grab the Lie-Nielson or the Knight smother. The whole point
will all
become quite clear.

Leuf wrote:
When you ask a tool to do a job it wasn't intended to do, guess what,
it doesn't perform well. If you take a cheap a tool to an expensive
piece of wood and wreck it you're an idiot, not for buying the tool
but for having happen exactly what you'd expect to happen and then
blaming the tool. If you feel like your tools are holding you back
then by all means get a better tool for the task at hand. But don't
insinuate that anyone who doesn't spend as much on tools as you
doesn't care about the quality of their work as much as you do.


-Leuf

When I was a kid my father and one of my uncles as amateur woodworkers
made some of the most beautiful and durable furniture pieces using what
I would consider Harbor Freight quality tools. They did buy what *they*
considered at the time the *Cadillac* of power tools - Craftsman (table
saw, band saw, drill press, etc.). I still have and use some of those
old tools and they work just fine. In fact, I would pit my Craftsman
tablesaw against most other table saws I've seen until you get up into
spending thousands. It cuts as well with its 3/4 rated horsepower as any
2 to 3 HP saw I've seen, and is just as accurate after I finally got it
all tuned up. The old Craftsman hand plane works well after tuning, and
even the old Stanley Block plane with the big open crack down the side
works really well. And that plane was not one of the better Stanley's.
My father's chisels and plane irons were always sharpened with a file.
So I guess for *most* hand tools and power tools, if you take care to
tune it and use it properly, it will usually work just fine. Hell, I've
got a toolbox full of metal tools I've made by hand, frequently with a
file and hacksaw that work just fine, so you don't always need high-cost
store bought tools to do high quality work. In fact when I buy tools,
whether hand or power tools, I *expect* to spend some time to tune it
before use. But then, *many* expensive tools are not much better, as
evidenced by the responses here.
Just one case in point - When I purchased one of the ubiquitous 14"
Chiwanese bandsaws, I wanted to tune it, so off came the top wheel to
shim it. That's when I noticed 2 things - a. the mounting shaft was a
shouldered shaft (the nut runs up onto the shoulder of the bolt rather
than the bearing), and b. the bearings did not have a compression sleeve
between them. This of course is not good for the bearings, and is a
design flaw. So out comes the bearing and whip up a small metal
compression sleeve, back in goes the bearings and sleeve and bolt
together with the shims. (BTW, if anyone here has shimmed their top
wheel and has not checked this, they may be putting significant side
load on the bearings which may result in premature wearout)

BTW, forty to fifty years after those pieces of furniture were built,
most are still in daily use in the homes of my siblings and cousins (and
some were handed down to their kids) and are as beautiful and as strong
as when they were new.

"Shopdog" There is a proper tool for each and every job.
Searcher

That's true, but somewhat naive. You can't carry every "proper tool for
each and every job" with you everywhere you go. Try reparing a bent lower
control arm on a one ton truck 150 miles into Mexico.

Dave




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