"Lobby Dosser" wrote

Dad worked for Toledo Edison and sometimes did field inventory in the
summer. He'd pay me to ride along and take the notes for him. We covered
all of NW Ohio.

And to put the orange cone out whenever the car or truck was stopped, as was
required by T.E.? I always got a kick out of seeing orange cones in places
where they were totally unnecessary. g

Yep, I have only been back to the area a small handful of times in the last
25 or so years. It was a pretty good place to grow up, though.
--
Jim in NC

"J. Clarke" wrote

New construction yes, older houses, not so much.

MOST older construction in the South has now been fitted with Central Air,
too. Still, a few do not have it.

The conversation was mainly about new construction wiring practices. If an
older home needed more capacity, and had 15 amp branches, they would not be
putting in new wires and new breakers to replace all of the old. They would
be adding more outlets, and most likely would not use heavy wires and
breakers, but just add some more 15 amp circuits.
--
Jim in NC

On 9/4/2010 10:49 AM, Morgans wrote:
"J. wrote

New construction yes, older houses, not so much.

MOST older construction in the South has now been fitted with Central Air,
too. Still, a few do not have it.

The conversation was mainly about new construction wiring practices. If an
older home needed more capacity, and had 15 amp branches, they would not be
putting in new wires and new breakers to replace all of the old. They would
be adding more outlets, and most likely would not use heavy wires and
breakers, but just add some more 15 amp circuits.

So I'm doing it wrong when I use a piece of 12 gage aluminum as a pull
string for 12 gage copper?

"J. Clarke" wrote

So I'm doing it wrong when I use a piece of 12 gage aluminum as a pull
string for 12 gage copper?

Why not use a proper electricians fish line?

Not necessarily wrong, but do you really need to have a 15 amp and 20 amp in
the same area? It would follow that two 15 amp branches would be plenty of
capacity; more than even a single 20 amp.

If you want to mess with the 20 amp added circuit, go ahead. You will
anyway, right?
--
Jim in NC

Why not make it a 30 ampere circuit then? The same logic would apply with
the wimpy 20A circuits.

Perhaps an iron, toaster amd waffle iron are all wanted to be used in the
bathroom, at the same time.



"Morgans" wrote in message
...
Why not use a proper electricians fish line?

Not necessarily wrong, but do you really need to have a 15 amp and 20 amp in
the same area? It would follow that two 15 amp branches would be plenty of
capacity; more than even a single 20 amp.

If you want to mess with the 20 amp added circuit, go ahead. You will
anyway, right?
--
Jim in NC

On 9/4/2010 12:48 PM, Morgans wrote:
"J. wrote

So I'm doing it wrong when I use a piece of 12 gage aluminum as a pull
string for 12 gage copper?

Why not use a proper electricians fish line?

So what, I use the aluminum to pull the fish tape and then use the fish
tape to pull the copper? Why do the extra step?

Not necessarily wrong, but do you really need to have a 15 amp and 20 amp in
the same area?

Nope, just the 20 amp.

It would follow that two 15 amp branches would be plenty of
capacity; more than even a single 20 amp.

And two 20 amp branches would be even better.

If you want to mess with the 20 amp added circuit, go ahead.

Who said anything about an "added circuit"?

You will
anyway, right?

On 9/4/2010 1:08 PM, Josepi wrote:
Why not make it a 30 ampere circuit then? The same logic would apply with
the wimpy 20A circuits.

What section of code would allow that, Mr. Heap Big Electrical Inspector?

Perhaps an iron, toaster amd waffle iron are all wanted to be used in the
bathroom, at the same time.



wrote in message
...
Why not use a proper electricians fish line?

Not necessarily wrong, but do you really need to have a 15 amp and 20 amp in
the same area? It would follow that two 15 amp branches would be plenty of
capacity; more than even a single 20 amp.

If you want to mess with the 20 amp added circuit, go ahead. You will
anyway, right?

In article , "J. Clarke" wrote:
On 9/4/2010 1:08 PM, Josepi wrote:
Why not make it a 30 ampere circuit then? The same logic would apply with
the wimpy 20A circuits.

What section of code would allow that, Mr. Heap Big Electrical Inspector?

PDFTFT.

PDFTFT ???

"Morgans" wrote in message
...

"Lobby Dosser" wrote

Dad worked for Toledo Edison and sometimes did field inventory in the
summer. He'd pay me to ride along and take the notes for him. We covered
all of NW Ohio.

And to put the orange cone out whenever the car or truck was stopped, as
was required by T.E.? I always got a kick out of seeing orange cones in
places where they were totally unnecessary. g

Yep, I have only been back to the area a small handful of times in the
last 25 or so years. It was a pretty good place to grow up, though.

But humid as all get out. Cold winters. Tornados. Mosquitoes. I do kind of
miss crickets and cicadas ...

On 9/4/2010 6:32 PM, Morgans wrote:
PDFTFT ???

Please Don't Feed The Foolish Troll. Or some variation thereof... :-)

--
See Nad. See Nad go. Go Nad!
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

"Steve Turner" wrote in message
...
On 9/4/2010 6:32 PM, Morgans wrote:
PDFTFT ???

Please Don't Feed The Foolish Troll. Or some variation thereof... :-)

Gottcha. Or some variation, huh? g

Thanks!
--
Jim in NC

"Mike Marlow" writes:
Scott Lurndal wrote:


An iron pulls 10A at 115. That doesn't leave much for the blow dryer
or
space heater that might be used on the same bedroom circuit. I've
seen
AV receivers that pull 12A under load, add an ampere or two for the
TV, and
one more for the STB, and you've exceeded the safe rating of the
receptacle.

Only if you're plugging everything into the same receptacle.

That's why I said the 'safe rating of the receptacle'.

Consider a plug strip used with a home theater setup.



Add an electric blanket or waterbed heater and you've
blown the circuit. Then
add a window AC unit, or plug in the rug steamer...


Though to be fair - are you really going to be running all of those at the
same time?

How many homeowners know what circuits each receptacle is part of? I assume
the worst case, most uninformed homeowner, who does plug the iron into the
same branch circuit his/her A/C window unit is using.

Given that a (not perhaps typical) home theater setup can easily
draw 12A+, I think 20A circuit should be used for all living space receptacles.

scott
(Who has one computer system that draws 7.2kw).

"Morgans" writes:

"Scott Lurndal" wrote

An iron pulls 10A at 115. That doesn't leave much for the blow dryer or
space heater that might be used on the same bedroom circuit. I've seen
AV receivers that pull 12A under load, add an ampere or two for the TV,
and
one more for the STB, and you've exceeded the safe rating of the
receptacle. Add
an electric blanket or waterbed heater and you've blown the circuit. Then
add a window AC unit, or plug in the rug steamer...

Good Lord, man! Put all that crap on at the same time, and TWO 20 amp
circuits couldn't pull it without blowing.

You run rug steamers, while the electric blanket is running? Really? More
comments not added about ridiculous possibilities of using multiple stuff
all at one time.

The electric waterbed heater is thermostatically controlled. It starts and
stops when it needs to. SWMBO uses the electric blanket when she naps.

You obviously live alone, without kids. Things get plugged in all time
time and kids seldom do load calculations prior to plugging it.


I couldn't afford to run all of the crap you have listed.

worlds smallest violin.


We use blow dryers in the bathroom. Different circuit than the bedroom.
Most use an iron in the utility room, also.

And of course, you are typical of everyone else, right? Everyone has a
utility room? Everyone has enough bathrooms that everyone can get
ready at the same time? You never have guests?

The point of all this is that an electrician, or homebuilder, cannot make
the assumption that all people live like you do, since they don't. Therefore,
they're going to put in 20A circuits (either due to code, or common sense).



I have to ask. If you have never tried to live in a house with 15 amp
circuits (since they are not allowed to be used under your codes) how do you
know that 15 amps is not enough? You couldn't. You have never tried that.

I've several loads that alone, will exceed 15A.


Oh, and down South, we have Central Air. No window AC units are needed,

Window A/C can be significantly more efficient than central, when only cooling
part of the home.

And of course not all houses, by a longshot, in the "down south" have central A/C.


scott

On 9/5/2010 3:22 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
How many homeowners know what circuits each receptacle is part of?

Speaking of that, why in the hell don't the codes call for some sort of
standard labeling scheme so that a person could read a number off the front of
the switch or outlet and trace it straight back to the very breaker in the
panel to which it's connected?

--
Free bad advice available here.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

That would be an excellent idea. I have labelled many of my circuit
recepticals inside the box but that only helps the electricain to identify
things. I could never figure out a nice way of labelling them.

Good panel circuit descriptions help somewhat but the "Receptical over
there" comment is confusing...LOL



"Steve Turner" wrote in message
...
Speaking of that, why in the hell don't the codes call for some sort of
standard labeling scheme so that a person could read a number off the front
of
the switch or outlet and trace it straight back to the very breaker in the
panel to which it's connected?

--
Free bad advice available here.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee


On 9/5/2010 3:22 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
How many homeowners know what circuits each receptacle is part of?

On Mon, 06 Sep 2010 08:46:07 -0500, Steve Turner
wrote:

On 9/5/2010 3:22 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
How many homeowners know what circuits each receptacle is part of?

Speaking of that, why in the hell don't the codes call for some sort of
standard labeling scheme so that a person could read a number off the front of
the switch or outlet and trace it straight back to the very breaker in the
panel to which it's connected?

How would that prevent a fire or electrocution?

On 9/6/2010 12:09 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Mon, 06 Sep 2010 08:46:07 -0500, Steve Turner
wrote:

On 9/5/2010 3:22 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
How many homeowners know what circuits each receptacle is part of?

Speaking of that, why in the hell don't the codes call for some sort of
standard labeling scheme so that a person could read a number off the front of
the switch or outlet and trace it straight back to the very breaker in the
panel to which it's connected?

How would that prevent a fire or electrocution?

If you could tear yourself away from the endless and pointless thread leading
up to my minor diversion (which is what I tried to do by snipping away all the
other context), try picturing the situation where the homeowner is able to TELL
(quickly and easily) exactly which breaker cuts the power to the outlet he
wants to fiddle with (without manually tripping every other friggin breaker in
the box and hitting the outlet with a meter just to find out what SHOULD have
been documented at installation) so that when he sticks the screwdriver in
there he doesn't get zapped? I can't tell you many times I've deferred the
reworking of an outlet because I didn't want to accidentally power down the
internet gateway or reset all the damn clocks in the house...

--
"Our beer goes through thousands of quality Czechs every day."
(From a Shiner Bock billboard I saw in Austin some years ago)
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

On 9/6/10 12:58 PM, Steve Turner wrote:
On 9/6/2010 12:09 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Mon, 06 Sep 2010 08:46:07 -0500, Steve Turner
wrote:

On 9/5/2010 3:22 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
How many homeowners know what circuits each receptacle is part of?

Speaking of that, why in the hell don't the codes call for some sort of
standard labeling scheme so that a person could read a number off the
front of
the switch or outlet and trace it straight back to the very breaker
in the
panel to which it's connected?

How would that prevent a fire or electrocution?

If you could tear yourself away from the endless and pointless thread
leading up to my minor diversion (which is what I tried to do by
snipping away all the other context), try picturing the situation where
the homeowner is able to TELL (quickly and easily) exactly which breaker
cuts the power to the outlet he wants to fiddle with (without manually
tripping every other friggin breaker in the box and hitting the outlet
with a meter just to find out what SHOULD have been documented at
installation) so that when he sticks the screwdriver in there he doesn't
get zapped? I can't tell you many times I've deferred the reworking of
an outlet because I didn't want to accidentally power down the internet
gateway or reset all the damn clocks in the house...


Every time I work on an outlet or ceiling fan or get in a junction box
anywhere in the house, I try to remember to mark the number of the
breaker on the inside on the cover with a sharpie.

Of course, I also have one of those radio jobbies that plug into the
outlet and beep when you place the receiver over the correct breaker...
but that number on the inside barrows it down much quicker. :-)
In the shop, every outlet, quad, light, junction box) has the breaker
number written in sharpie on the outside, clear as day. In fact, I have
little symbols I write on the romex running overhead, indicating what
it's running to or from: hot, switch, 3-way, etc.

I've rearranged my shop so many times-- after getting better tools or
doing a major reorganization, overhauling the lighting-- all that
labeling *really* sped up any rewiring I had to do.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Steve Turner wrote:



If you could tear yourself away from the endless and pointless thread
leading up to my minor diversion (which is what I tried to do by
snipping away all the other context), try picturing the situation where
the homeowner is able to TELL (quickly and easily) exactly which breaker
cuts the power to the outlet he wants to fiddle with (without manually
tripping every other friggin breaker in the box and hitting the outlet
with a meter just to find out what SHOULD have been documented at
installation) so that when he sticks the screwdriver in there he doesn't
get zapped? I can't tell you many times I've deferred the reworking of
an outlet because I didn't want to accidentally power down the internet
gateway or reset all the damn clocks in the house...


That's why I use a magic marker to write the circuit breaker number on
the wall under the switch/outlet cover plate.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

Steve Turner wrote in
:

On 9/5/2010 3:22 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
How many homeowners know what circuits each receptacle is part of?

Speaking of that, why in the hell don't the codes call for some sort
of standard labeling scheme so that a person could read a number off
the front of the switch or outlet and trace it straight back to the
very breaker in the panel to which it's connected?


I've been tempted to short something out intentionally to see which
breaker pops. Seems like it would be a lot easier than tracing breakers
in a box a supposedly professional electrician didn't label.

Are there devices that plug into the power source and produce a specific
signal that's tracable back at the panel?

Puckdropper
--
Never teach your apprentice everything you know.

On 9/6/2010 3:43 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
Steve wrote in
:

On 9/5/2010 3:22 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
How many homeowners know what circuits each receptacle is part of?

Speaking of that, why in the hell don't the codes call for some sort
of standard labeling scheme so that a person could read a number off
the front of the switch or outlet and trace it straight back to the
very breaker in the panel to which it's connected?


I've been tempted to short something out intentionally to see which
breaker pops. Seems like it would be a lot easier than tracing breakers
in a box a supposedly professional electrician didn't label.

Are there devices that plug into the power source and produce a specific
signal that's tracable back at the panel?

Puckdropper

-MIKE- mentioned something like that; I've never seen one, but it sounds cool.
I don't know how such a device would help you track which circuit a light
switch is on though.

--
"Our beer goes through thousands of quality Czechs every day."
(From a Shiner Bock billboard I saw in Austin some years ago)
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

On 9/06/10 4:59 PM, Steve Turner wrote:
On 9/6/2010 3:43 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
Steve wrote in
:

On 9/5/2010 3:22 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
How many homeowners know what circuits each receptacle is part of?

Speaking of that, why in the hell don't the codes call for some sort
of standard labeling scheme so that a person could read a number off
the front of the switch or outlet and trace it straight back to the
very breaker in the panel to which it's connected?


I've been tempted to short something out intentionally to see which
breaker pops. Seems like it would be a lot easier than tracing breakers
in a box a supposedly professional electrician didn't label.

Are there devices that plug into the power source and produce a specific
signal that's tracable back at the panel?

Puckdropper

-MIKE- mentioned something like that; I've never seen one, but it sounds
cool. I don't know how such a device would help you track which circuit
a light switch is on though.

There are screw in adaptors that will let you temporarily use a light
socket as an outlet.....

These signal tracers do work, but sometimes, maybe depending on the
panel or how heavily loaded the panel is, the results are not such that
you get a lot of confidence in them. At least that is my experience
with them.

--
Froz...


The system will be down for 10 days for preventive maintenance.

On Sep 6, 5:11*pm, FrozenNorth
wrote:
On 9/06/10 4:59 PM, Steve Turner wrote:



On 9/6/2010 3:43 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
Steve wrote in
:

On 9/5/2010 3:22 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
How many homeowners know what circuits each receptacle is part of?

Speaking of that, why in the hell don't the codes call for some sort
of standard labeling scheme so that a person could read a number off
the front of the switch or outlet and trace it straight back to the
very breaker in the panel to which it's connected?

I've been tempted to short something out intentionally to see which
breaker pops. Seems like it would be a lot easier than tracing breakers
in a box a supposedly professional electrician didn't label.

Are there devices that plug into the power source and produce a specific
signal that's tracable back at the panel?

Puckdropper

-MIKE- mentioned something like that; I've never seen one, but it sounds
cool. I don't know how such a device would help you track which circuit
a light switch is on though.

There are screw in adaptors that will let you temporarily use a light
socket as an outlet.....

These signal tracers do work, but sometimes, maybe depending on the
panel or how heavily loaded the panel is, the results are not such that
you get a lot of confidence in them. *At least that is my experience
with them.

--
Froz...
The system will be down for 10 days for preventive maintenance.

Indeed. I have a tracing unit and when there are two long lines
running close to each other, the induction can set up just enough
phantom voltage to trick the thing. Handy as hell, but hardly
foolproof.

I have seen lots of guys deliberately shorting an outlet with a piece
of wire, in order to trip the breaker, saving a looooong walk to the
breaker panel. "Supposed to be THE ultimate test anyway, right?"

On 9/6/10 3:43 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
Steve wrote in
:

On 9/5/2010 3:22 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
How many homeowners know what circuits each receptacle is part of?

Speaking of that, why in the hell don't the codes call for some sort
of standard labeling scheme so that a person could read a number off
the front of the switch or outlet and trace it straight back to the
very breaker in the panel to which it's connected?


I've been tempted to short something out intentionally to see which
breaker pops. Seems like it would be a lot easier than tracing breakers
in a box a supposedly professional electrician didn't label.

Are there devices that plug into the power source and produce a specific
signal that's tracable back at the panel?

Puckdropper

Mine is from Radio Shack and is a clone of this...
http://hitechhub.com/hi-techhtp-6-circuitdetective.aspx

Google Digital Circuit Breaker Finder and you'll find many.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Mon, 6 Sep 2010 14:27:27 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
wrote:

On Sep 6, 5:11*pm, FrozenNorth
wrote:
On 9/06/10 4:59 PM, Steve Turner wrote:

These signal tracers do work, but sometimes, maybe depending on the
panel or how heavily loaded the panel is, the results are not such that
you get a lot of confidence in them. *At least that is my experience
with them.

Indeed. I have a tracing unit and when there are two long lines
running close to each other, the induction can set up just enough
phantom voltage to trick the thing. Handy as hell, but hardly
foolproof.

Wiring in my panel is so close that it defeats the tracer,
unfortunately. I was disappinted in my shiny new used unit.


I have seen lots of guys deliberately shorting an outlet with a piece
of wire, in order to trip the breaker, saving a looooong walk to the
breaker panel. "Supposed to be THE ultimate test anyway, right?"

Purist (read: anal) Sparkies everywhere change a breaker out if it has
been tripped even once. In any case, shorting out live breakers is
iffy at best, a fire at worst.

--
Happiness comes of the capacity to feel deeply, to enjoy
simply, to think freely, to risk life, to be needed.
-- Storm Jameson

On 9/6/2010 5:22 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Mon, 06 Sep 2010 12:58:20 -0500, Steve Turner
wrote:

On 9/6/2010 12:09 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Mon, 06 Sep 2010 08:46:07 -0500, Steve Turner
wrote:

On 9/5/2010 3:22 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
How many homeowners know what circuits each receptacle is part of?

Speaking of that, why in the hell don't the codes call for some sort of
standard labeling scheme so that a person could read a number off the front of
the switch or outlet and trace it straight back to the very breaker in the
panel to which it's connected?

How would that prevent a fire or electrocution?

If you could tear yourself away from the endless and pointless thread leading
up to my minor diversion (which is what I tried to do by snipping away all the
other context),

I did. I asked you a question pertaining *only* to what you wrote.

Your response to my original post has nothing whatsoever to do with what I
wrote. NOTHING. Forget the rest of this thread. Read what Scott wrote above,
then read what I wrote. Your response speaks to a completely different
conversation.

try picturing the situation where the homeowner is able to TELL
(quickly and easily) exactly which breaker cuts the power to the outlet he
wants to fiddle with (without manually tripping every other friggin breaker in
the box and hitting the outlet with a meter just to find out what SHOULD have
been documented at installation) so that when he sticks the screwdriver in
there he doesn't get zapped?

Only an idiot would do that. Are you worried about doing it?

Oh really, so a screwdriver isn't the correct tool for removing and connecting
wires to a switch or outlet? Wires that connect with SCREWS?

I can't tell you many times I've deferred the
reworking of an outlet because I didn't want to accidentally power down the
internet gateway or reset all the damn clocks in the house...

...and why would the NFPA be concerned with your inconvenience? If you're
that inconvenienced why don't you label your circuits?

Why don't you go **** yourself? The rest of the participants in my little leg
of the thread have had no trouble reading and understanding what I wrote, and
most even seem to agree with me. You've had a hard-on for me ever since we
butted heads back in the T/S Inertia thread. Why don't you get over it already?

--
See Nad. See Nad go. Go Nad!
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

On Mon, 06 Sep 2010 18:33:58 -0500, Steve Turner
wrote:

On 9/6/2010 5:22 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Mon, 06 Sep 2010 12:58:20 -0500, Steve Turner
wrote:

On 9/6/2010 12:09 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Mon, 06 Sep 2010 08:46:07 -0500, Steve Turner
wrote:

On 9/5/2010 3:22 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
How many homeowners know what circuits each receptacle is part of?

Speaking of that, why in the hell don't the codes call for some sort of
standard labeling scheme so that a person could read a number off the front of
the switch or outlet and trace it straight back to the very breaker in the
panel to which it's connected?

How would that prevent a fire or electrocution?

If you could tear yourself away from the endless and pointless thread leading
up to my minor diversion (which is what I tried to do by snipping away all the
other context),

I did. I asked you a question pertaining *only* to what you wrote.

Your response to my original post has nothing whatsoever to do with what I
wrote. NOTHING. Forget the rest of this thread. Read what Scott wrote above,
then read what I wrote. Your response speaks to a completely different
conversation.

Wrong again, dumb****. You insisted that "codes call for some sort of
standard labeling scheme...". I answered by asking why would do such a stupid
thing, considering that your convenience has nothing to do their goals (saving
life). The NFPA's only concern is protecting life and property by learning
from other's deaths. Labels on outlets aren't going to save one life or one
building. IOW, they're not interested in how lazy you are, unless you're a
danger to others (hmm).

try picturing the situation where the homeowner is able to TELL
(quickly and easily) exactly which breaker cuts the power to the outlet he
wants to fiddle with (without manually tripping every other friggin breaker in
the box and hitting the outlet with a meter just to find out what SHOULD have
been documented at installation) so that when he sticks the screwdriver in
there he doesn't get zapped?

Only an idiot would do that. Are you worried about doing it?

Oh really, so a screwdriver isn't the correct tool for removing and connecting
wires to a switch or outlet? Wires that connect with SCREWS?

Not with power on, idiot. Turn the damned power off. If you can't tell which
outlet is controlled by which breaker, spend *your* time to map your house. I
certainly don't want to have to pay a licensed electrician to flip switches
and watch lights. Apparently you are dumb enough to work on energized
circuits, though.

I can't tell you many times I've deferred the
reworking of an outlet because I didn't want to accidentally power down the
internet gateway or reset all the damn clocks in the house...

...and why would the NFPA be concerned with your inconvenience? If you're
that inconvenienced why don't you label your circuits?

Why don't you go **** yourself? The rest of the participants in my little leg
of the thread have had no trouble reading and understanding what I wrote, and
most even seem to agree with me. You've had a hard-on for me ever since we
butted heads back in the T/S Inertia thread. Why don't you get over it already?

Perhaps they're as stupid as you are? Perhaps they haven't thought through
this either. Perhaps they have a plan to label their own circuits (some have
some good ideas - learn from them). Demanding that others do this for you is
stupid as it comes.

LOL. yes real world for sure.

Hydro One used to build a system called IPACS (integrated system protection
and control) that would telemeter and protect a HV Hydro station, all based
on a few CPU algorithms. In Peru (?) they wanted to see this "short it out"
done. Put the grounds on the 3000A bus and turn on the 28kV feed and let it
do it's job.....scary!!


"Robatoy" wrote in message
...
On Sep 6, 5:46 pm, "Josepi" wrote:
I have seen guys do that and run for the panel to stop the smoke coming
out
of other recepticals too. When a crappy breaker becomes stuborn the wire
loop can be too hot to grab again.

Dangerous idea.

You think?

But it is a 'real world test' nonetheless.

Electricians have heavy duty sticks that plug into a socket and
it draws high current and vibrates in the hand. It gives a wag for certain.

It might be enough. An electric toaster or toaster oven would draw it -
using the elements as loads.

Most of us have tools at hand, it is a matter of application.

Martin

Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
"Our Republic and the Press will Rise or Fall Together": Joseph Pulitzer
TSRA: Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Originator & Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member. http://lufkinced.com/

On 9/6/2010 3:59 PM, Steve Turner wrote:
On 9/6/2010 3:43 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
Steve wrote in
:

On 9/5/2010 3:22 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
How many homeowners know what circuits each receptacle is part of?

Speaking of that, why in the hell don't the codes call for some sort
of standard labeling scheme so that a person could read a number off
the front of the switch or outlet and trace it straight back to the
very breaker in the panel to which it's connected?


I've been tempted to short something out intentionally to see which
breaker pops. Seems like it would be a lot easier than tracing breakers
in a box a supposedly professional electrician didn't label.

Are there devices that plug into the power source and produce a specific
signal that's tracable back at the panel?

Puckdropper

-MIKE- mentioned something like that; I've never seen one, but it sounds cool. I
don't know how such a device would help you track which circuit a light switch
is on though.

"Lew Hodgett" wrote

By design specification, a molded case thermal/magetic c'bkr only has to
clear a fault ONCE.

Most manufacturers must design to well over specs, then. I have never
experienced a breaker that would not trip many multiple times from an
overload, and continue to do so.
--
Jim in NC

Larry Jaques wrote:

Larry, I thought I'd let you know I ended up buying the drywall book by
Myron Ferguson that you recommended a while back. It was staring me
right in the face today in the book section at Menards. I figured it's
not too late to learn something and it looks like a good book (more
helpful than Stanley's).

Pulling out and retaping about 40 feet of tape slowed my progress a
little but I still try to get something done after work everyday. I feel
like I'm racing to beat the fall "cool-down".

Bill

On Tue, 14 Sep 2010 22:28:24 -0400, Bill wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:

Larry, I thought I'd let you know I ended up buying the drywall book by
Myron Ferguson that you recommended a while back. It was staring me
right in the face today in the book section at Menards. I figured it's
not too late to learn something and it looks like a good book (more
helpful than Stanley's).

Pulling out and retaping about 40 feet of tape slowed my progress a
little but I still try to get something done after work everyday. I feel
like I'm racing to beat the fall "cool-down".

Funny, I'm waiting for it. ;-) Last weekend I finally got to do some work. I
even got to play with one of my FesteringTools. I like!

On Tue, 14 Sep 2010 22:28:24 -0400, Bill wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:

Larry, I thought I'd let you know I ended up buying the drywall book by
Myron Ferguson that you recommended a while back. It was staring me
right in the face today in the book section at Menards.

Lucky it warn't no snake, eh? Woulda _bit_ ya!


I figured it's
not too late to learn something and it looks like a good book (more
helpful than Stanley's).

Good man! So, did you end up putting in crown moulding?


Pulling out and retaping about 40 feet of tape slowed my progress a

Did you already say "Oops!" Ouch, that hurts.


little but I still try to get something done after work everyday. I feel
like I'm racing to beat the fall "cool-down".

I'm in that race, too. I removed my back porch cover which slanted
down to the roof. I decided to undo some idiot's choice and replace it
with metal roofing. But now I have to get it done before the fall
rainy season, which is already starting this week. Luckily, it's only
12 wide by 8' long, so it'll only take a day to rebuild.

--
Not merely an absence of noise, Real Silence begins
when a reasonable being withdraws from the noise in
order to find peace and order in his inner sanctuary.
-- Peter Minard

On 9/16/2010 10:16 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
So, did you end up putting in crown moulding?

I may be trying to pretty up some crown molding in the living room in
the future. Stay tuned.



Pulling out and retaping about 40 feet of tape slowed my progress a

Did you already say "Oops!" Ouch, that hurts.

I try to save that for the occasional hammer blow to my index finger.
Instead I say "man, that's pretty heavy" as I load and unload another 5
gallon bucket of all-purpose from the trunk of my car! I should probably
graduate to the powdered stuff.

I also picked up a 6' 500w/1000w tripod work light currently on sale for
$25 at Menards. I'll try it out tonight.


little but I still try to get something done after work everyday. I feel
like I'm racing to beat the fall "cool-down".

I'm in that race, too. I removed my back porch cover which slanted
down to the roof. I decided to undo some idiot's choice and replace it
with metal roofing. But now I have to get it done before the fall
rainy season, which is already starting this week. Luckily, it's only
12 wide by 8' long, so it'll only take a day to rebuild.

Sounds like a pretty involved project. Good luck with it!

Bill

On Thu, 16 Sep 2010 11:01:46 -0400, Bill
wrote:

On 9/16/2010 10:16 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
So, did you end up putting in crown moulding?

I may be trying to pretty up some crown molding in the living room in
the future. Stay tuned.



Pulling out and retaping about 40 feet of tape slowed my progress a

Did you already say "Oops!" Ouch, that hurts.

I try to save that for the occasional hammer blow to my index finger.
Instead I say "man, that's pretty heavy" as I load and unload another 5
gallon bucket of all-purpose from the trunk of my car! I should probably
graduate to the powdered stuff.

I also picked up a 6' 500w/1000w tripod work light currently on sale for
$25 at Menards. I'll try it out tonight.

Too bad. I would have suggested a multiple fluor worklight instead.
None of the heat, danger, or massive electrical costs associated with
the halogen crap. Daylight fluor CFLs are $2 each and use 13w each.
They're the equivalent of a 100w incandescent bulb. You can buy up to
70w CFLs, too.

Something like this. I got an umbrella style for $24 a few years back,
but either works well. http://fwd4.me/ePe


little but I still try to get something done after work everyday. I feel
like I'm racing to beat the fall "cool-down".

I'm in that race, too. I removed my back porch cover which slanted
down to the roof. I decided to undo some idiot's choice and replace it
with metal roofing. But now I have to get it done before the fall
rainy season, which is already starting this week. Luckily, it's only
12 wide by 8' long, so it'll only take a day to rebuild.

Sounds like a pretty involved project. Good luck with it!

Nah, just your basic lean-to roofing structure. The uprights are
already in the concrete patio so I'm just putting the wing on top.
Thanks for the good wishes, though.

--
"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country
against his government." --Edward Abbey

I bought my first microwave oven just after getting married in 1972
We had people point o it and ask if it cleaned the dishes very well or we
had to rinse them first.

I used microwave ovens at work in 1968. They were a few years old then.

Things sure change.

And yeah, my microwave knocks my cordless phone for aloop now. All these
years and I have never noticed it before until we built a home with a huge
great room and we are all together for RFI living...LOL

All these years they have been trying to get us to put in split recepticals
support 120/240 circuits and now we step back with the GFCI ones at 20 amps.
This junk is all supplier driven, not logic driven. The craziest thing was
the split recepticals had to be leap frogged on the circuit ie. 1,3 & 5
recepticals could be on the same circuit and 2,4&6 on your counter could be
the same circuit. Hoping you would plug the kettle in beside the toaster and
never blow a breaker.

We just need a phone system on our recepticals that reads out "line in use"



"Martin H. Eastburn" wrote in message
...
1. assume the local inspectors know what the heck is going on...
2. assume the local / state supports the CEC on that...
3. assume the user is placing the microwave on the same spot the
non-cook drew up the outlets in the kitchen or the builder in a kit-bash
design.

I bought a house built in 1970 - our first - and we didn't have microwaves
then from what I know. In 1980 we bought a house and bought a large
microwave.
No issue. We bought a house in 1986 that was 10 years old - e.g. 76 - and
it
broke breakers. The house in 1987 was brand new and it broke breakers.

Those last two were young enough, but were both in California! Wonder....

We finally lost that microwave two years ago and got a switcher model.

That sucker is nice - it has bells and whistles but drives us batty.

When we start it up, users of wireless internet are knocked off the air.

I have to get my scope in here, but it appears to be the switcher noise
is excessive.

Martin

I suspect two things - have to get my scope in the house.

1. The case - SS - isn't grounded. So it radiates. What - I hope the switcher.
The switcher that generates the power needed from high voltage to low current.

2. If it is microwave radiation that is killing the wireless internet - that is a
serious quality issue and can blind someone...or more.

I don't expect it is the power line - the laptop has filters and if not -

Martin

Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
"Our Republic and the Press will Rise or Fall Together": Joseph Pulitzer
TSRA: Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Originator & Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member. http://lufkinced.com/

On 9/19/2010 9:25 PM, Josepi wrote:
I bought my first microwave oven just after getting married in 1972
We had people point o it and ask if it cleaned the dishes very well or we
had to rinse them first.

I used microwave ovens at work in 1968. They were a few years old then.

Things sure change.

And yeah, my microwave knocks my cordless phone for aloop now. All these
years and I have never noticed it before until we built a home with a huge
great room and we are all together for RFI living...LOL

All these years they have been trying to get us to put in split recepticals
support 120/240 circuits and now we step back with the GFCI ones at 20 amps.
This junk is all supplier driven, not logic driven. The craziest thing was
the split recepticals had to be leap frogged on the circuit ie. 1,3& 5
recepticals could be on the same circuit and 2,4&6 on your counter could be
the same circuit. Hoping you would plug the kettle in beside the toaster and
never blow a breaker.

We just need a phone system on our recepticals that reads out "line in use"



"Martin H. wrote in message
...
1. assume the local inspectors know what the heck is going on...
2. assume the local / state supports the CEC on that...
3. assume the user is placing the microwave on the same spot the
non-cook drew up the outlets in the kitchen or the builder in a kit-bash
design.

I bought a house built in 1970 - our first - and we didn't have microwaves
then from what I know. In 1980 we bought a house and bought a large
microwave.
No issue. We bought a house in 1986 that was 10 years old - e.g. 76 - and
it
broke breakers. The house in 1987 was brand new and it broke breakers.

Those last two were young enough, but were both in California! Wonder....

We finally lost that microwave two years ago and got a switcher model.

That sucker is nice - it has bells and whistles but drives us batty.

When we start it up, users of wireless internet are knocked off the air.

I have to get my scope in here, but it appears to be the switcher noise
is excessive.

Martin

If that was the case you would be blind from your cell phone, wireless
phones, satellite dish remote(not iR), neighbour's RC car on the street and
many other things. Test it. Hold a fluorescent bulb by the microwave door.
If it glows, you got a problem.

I got one of those "inverter microwaves = no magnitron" a few years back.
Nice and light and obviously no big step-up transformer in it. Still can't
figure out what makes the 2.4GHz after repairing a few years ago and
replacing the magnotron in one..


"Martin H. Eastburn" wrote in message
...
I suspect two things - have to get my scope in the house.

1. The case - SS - isn't grounded. So it radiates. What - I hope the
switcher.
The switcher that generates the power needed from high voltage to low
current.

2. If it is microwave radiation that is killing the wireless internet - that
is a
serious quality issue and can blind someone...or more.

I don't expect it is the power line - the laptop has filters and if not -

Martin

Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
"Our Republic and the Press will Rise or Fall Together": Joseph Pulitzer
TSRA: Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Originator & Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member. http://lufkinced.com/

On 9/19/2010 9:25 PM, Josepi wrote:
I bought my first microwave oven just after getting married in 1972
We had people point o it and ask if it cleaned the dishes very well or we
had to rinse them first.

I used microwave ovens at work in 1968. They were a few years old then.

Things sure change.

And yeah, my microwave knocks my cordless phone for aloop now. All these
years and I have never noticed it before until we built a home with a huge
great room and we are all together for RFI living...LOL

All these years they have been trying to get us to put in split
recepticals
support 120/240 circuits and now we step back with the GFCI ones at 20
amps.
This junk is all supplier driven, not logic driven. The craziest thing was
the split recepticals had to be leap frogged on the circuit ie. 1,3& 5
recepticals could be on the same circuit and 2,4&6 on your counter could
be
the same circuit. Hoping you would plug the kettle in beside the toaster
and
never blow a breaker.

We just need a phone system on our recepticals that reads out "line in
use"



"Martin H. wrote in message
...
1. assume the local inspectors know what the heck is going on...
2. assume the local / state supports the CEC on that...
3. assume the user is placing the microwave on the same spot the
non-cook drew up the outlets in the kitchen or the builder in a
kit-bash
design.

I bought a house built in 1970 - our first - and we didn't have microwaves
then from what I know. In 1980 we bought a house and bought a large
microwave.
No issue. We bought a house in 1986 that was 10 years old - e.g. 76 - and
it
broke breakers. The house in 1987 was brand new and it broke breakers.

Those last two were young enough, but were both in California! Wonder....

We finally lost that microwave two years ago and got a switcher model.

That sucker is nice - it has bells and whistles but drives us batty.

When we start it up, users of wireless internet are knocked off the air.

I have to get my scope in here, but it appears to be the switcher noise
is excessive.

Martin

The magnetron is the oscillator. It has a cavity. Vary the cavity
and the frequency changes. Modulate the mechanical cavity and you are
transmitting the modulation. That technology changes Radar on-the-fly
thereby moving around a probing or sensing in the detection mode.

The RF the magnetron if leaking in a crack of a door can cause cataracts
and can whiten the cornea.

The various phones are lightweight to that of an oven. We are talking
sub 5 watts in a phone and IIRC from IEEE notes - it is 3 watts at the head,
up to 5 watts on speaker phone. The oven is a thousand or 600 watts.

The inverter replaces the heavy high voltage and filament winding and
keyboard/processor power. It is a high frequency oscillator that
'rings' or oscillates on an RF core. The high voltage it generates drives
the Magnetron. So there is a HF and a UHF source in the micro(u)wave.

The UHF magnetron can if leaking cause fluorescent bulbs to flicker or glow.
A common Neon bulb will as well. Testing will occur.

If you had a Inverter unit without a Magnetron it would have a Microwave diode.

The fact it does not disturb our Plasma TV a few feet away tends to tell me
it is an oscillator leak, but not in the microwave band.

Martin

Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
"Our Republic and the Press will Rise or Fall Together": Joseph Pulitzer
TSRA: Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Originator & Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member. http://lufkinced.com/

On 9/21/2010 3:39 PM, Josepi wrote:
If that was the case you would be blind from your cell phone, wireless
phones, satellite dish remote(not iR), neighbour's RC car on the street and
many other things. Test it. Hold a fluorescent bulb by the microwave door.
If it glows, you got a problem.

I got one of those "inverter microwaves = no magnitron" a few years back.
Nice and light and obviously no big step-up transformer in it. Still can't
figure out what makes the 2.4GHz after repairing a few years ago and
replacing the magnotron in one..


"Martin H. wrote in message
...
I suspect two things - have to get my scope in the house.

1. The case - SS - isn't grounded. So it radiates. What - I hope the
switcher.
The switcher that generates the power needed from high voltage to low
current.

2. If it is microwave radiation that is killing the wireless internet - that
is a
serious quality issue and can blind someone...or more.

I don't expect it is the power line - the laptop has filters and if not -

Martin

Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
"Our Republic and the Press will Rise or Fall Together": Joseph Pulitzer
TSRA: Endowed; NRA LOH& Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Originator& Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker& member. http://lufkinced.com/

On 9/19/2010 9:25 PM, Josepi wrote:
I bought my first microwave oven just after getting married in 1972
We had people point o it and ask if it cleaned the dishes very well or we
had to rinse them first.

I used microwave ovens at work in 1968. They were a few years old then.

Things sure change.

And yeah, my microwave knocks my cordless phone for aloop now. All these
years and I have never noticed it before until we built a home with a huge
great room and we are all together for RFI living...LOL

All these years they have been trying to get us to put in split
recepticals
support 120/240 circuits and now we step back with the GFCI ones at 20
amps.
This junk is all supplier driven, not logic driven. The craziest thing was
the split recepticals had to be leap frogged on the circuit ie. 1,3& 5
recepticals could be on the same circuit and 2,4&6 on your counter could
be
the same circuit. Hoping you would plug the kettle in beside the toaster
and
never blow a breaker.

We just need a phone system on our recepticals that reads out "line in
use"



"Martin H. wrote in message
...
1. assume the local inspectors know what the heck is going on...
2. assume the local / state supports the CEC on that...
3. assume the user is placing the microwave on the same spot the
non-cook drew up the outlets in the kitchen or the builder in a
kit-bash
design.

I bought a house built in 1970 - our first - and we didn't have microwaves
then from what I know. In 1980 we bought a house and bought a large
microwave.
No issue. We bought a house in 1986 that was 10 years old - e.g. 76 - and
it
broke breakers. The house in 1987 was brand new and it broke breakers.

Those last two were young enough, but were both in California! Wonder....

We finally lost that microwave two years ago and got a switcher model.

That sucker is nice - it has bells and whistles but drives us batty.

When we start it up, users of wireless internet are knocked off the air.

I have to get my scope in here, but it appears to be the switcher noise
is excessive.

Martin