Prompted by suggestions that a shop needs convenient power, I created a
(pdf) SU view of my proposed outlet configuration (for one wall), and also a
corresponding wiring model:

http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/

Comments or suggestions welcome. In fact, all I seek is a simple nod.
Thank you again to those of you who helped me to reach this point (of
understanding)!

Bill

BTW, I think I will feel better if I use 120v duplex outlets that are **GFCI
protected** in addition to GFCI CB's.

Bill wrote:

Prompted by suggestions that a shop needs convenient power, I
created a (pdf) SU view of my proposed outlet configuration (for one
wall), and also a corresponding wiring model:

http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/

Comments or suggestions welcome. In fact, all I seek is a simple nod.
Thank you again to those of you who helped me to reach this point (of
understanding)!

Are you suggesting that you are going to take 120v off of a 240V home run
for the outlets labeled BW and RW, and pass those runs down to the TS, DC,
and compressor? If so, I would do things differently.

1) I'd just run the dedicated 240v circuits directly to the devices
2) I'd use 10/3 for the 240v circuits. You may not need it now, but the
extra current capacity is there. The DC will probably never need that kind
of capacity, but at some point, you may put something else there.
3) I'd run 2 120v branch circuits to the wall outlets.



Bill

BTW, I think I will feel better if I use 120v duplex outlets that are
**GFCI protected** in addition to GFCI CB's.

I think you should not feel better about that. Pick one technique and don't
rely on what makes you feel better.

--

-Mike-

In article , "Bill" wrote:
Prompted by suggestions that a shop needs convenient power, I created a
(pdf) SU view of my proposed outlet configuration (for one wall), and also a
corresponding wiring model:

http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/

Comments or suggestions welcome. In fact, all I seek is a simple nod.

Sorry, you won't get that "simple nod" from me.

Keep it simple. Rather than wiring your 120V outlets to opposite sides of the
240V circuits, keep them separate: run 120V circuits for your 120V outlets,
and 240V circuits for your 240V outlets. It's easier to wire, gives you more
flexibility in the placement of your 120V outlets, and -- most important --
doesn't limit your 240V circuits to the same 20A as your 120V circuits.

Note that you need only two-conductor cable, not three, for the 240V circuits
once you've put the 120V outlets on 120V circuits.

You should install _at least_ twice as many 120V outlets as you think you
need. I'm kicking myself for having installed only three 240V outlets in my
16x20 shop, but I do have enough 120V outlets (fourteen duplex receptacles).

I have found it particularly useful to have a ceiling-mounted 120V outlet with
a drop cord on a retractor. It worked so well in the shop that I put another
one in the garage, plugged into the other half of the duplex receptacle that
powers the garage door opener.

The air compressor could be on the same circuit as either the table saw or the
dust collector, since it's unlikely that you'd ever be using it at the same
time as either of the others.

Run a minimum of 10ga wire, maybe even 8ga, to your 240V outlets. Using 12ga
wire unnecessarily constrains you to a future of small air compressors and
table saws. If you ever upgrade to a more powerful compressor or saw, you'll
have to rewire. Easier to just put in heavier wire at the outset.

Thank you again to those of you who helped me to reach this point (of
understanding)!

Bill

BTW, I think I will feel better if I use 120v duplex outlets that are **GFCI
protected** in addition to GFCI CB's.

Why? There's no point at all in having both.

On Tue, 1 Jun 2010 05:44:49 -0400, "Bill"
wrote:

Prompted by suggestions that a shop needs convenient power, I created a
(pdf) SU view of my proposed outlet configuration (for one wall), and also a
corresponding wiring model:

http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/

Comments or suggestions welcome. In fact, all I seek is a simple nod.
Thank you again to those of you who helped me to reach this point (of
understanding)!

Bill

BTW, I think I will feel better if I use 120v duplex outlets that are **GFCI
protected** in addition to GFCI CB's.

I'm going to agree with Doug and Mike both. Motor loads have some
high start up currents and your asking for nuisance trips. Don't be
stingy with the breakers and circuits. The retractable drop from the
ceiling as recommended I've found really useful.

Mike M

On Jun 1, 5:44*am, "Bill" wrote:
Prompted by suggestions that a shop needs convenient power, *I created a
(pdf) SU view of my proposed outlet configuration (for one wall), and also a
corresponding wiring model:

http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/

Comments or suggestions welcome. *In fact, all I seek is a simple nod.
Thank you again to those of you who helped me to reach this point (of
understanding)!

Bill

BTW, I think I will feel better if I use 120v duplex outlets that are **GFCI
protected** *in addition to GFCI CB's.

The top of my workbench overhangs the support frame by about 5 inches.
I put a 120V duplex every 2.5 feet or so along the frame under the
overhang, facing out into the shop.

This keeps the top of the workbench clear of cords running from the
back wall (as pictured in your "garage" sketch) when using sanders,
heat guns, etc.

I'm sure you already know that the lights should be on their own
circuit so that no tools can take them out and plunge you into
darkness.

Bill wrote:
Prompted by suggestions that a shop needs convenient power, I created a
(pdf) SU view of my proposed outlet configuration (for one wall), and also a
corresponding wiring model:

http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/

Comments or suggestions welcome. In fact, all I seek is a simple nod.
Thank you again to those of you who helped me to reach this point (of
understanding)!

Bill

BTW, I think I will feel better if I use 120v duplex outlets that are **GFCI
protected** in addition to GFCI CB's.

The last is just silly...

I'd (more or less) agree w/ the other posters...

Agree on separating the 120V on own circuits and moving up to 30A/10ga
over 20A/12ga for at least a couple of the circuits (and if do any,
might as well do all).

Slight disagreement w/ at least one suggestion...30A @240V is enough for
any reasonably efficient 5-horse single-phase motor and given that going
to 30A outlets raises compatibility and cost significantly, I don't see
any need/justification for more than that for anything other than a
dedicated welder circuit or somesuch. Presuming, of course, that the
distances are reasonable so that voltage drops are 5% or less and this
is a typical home shop, not commercial or a behemoth thing...

Agree that the "never enough" for 120V and the overhead are certainly
also truisms as well as the admonition for lights to not be on work outlets.

--

Never combine two motor loads on one circuit. The simultaneous starting
current will typically take out the breaker when you least want it to.

Two motors on any breaker / circuit is a big no-no and will also not protect
your equipment from any locked-rotor current. This is when the equipment
jams or shorts out and the circuit breaker is sized wrong for that piece of
equipment (big enough to carry the two motors), does not trip and your motor
windings go up in smoke. Bigger repair bill and possible fire hazard.

Proper motor protection circuits found in industry typically have two levels
of protection, one for the large starting current and one for the typical
loaded running current. Anything lasting longer than the two situations, at
that current level, will trip out the breaker / circuit interupter.

In home usage only one level of current protection is typically afforded
with a simple breaker. Don't defeat it by combining two motor devices. The
Electrical Inspector would advise against you doing this, if he catches it
or you ask.



"dpb" wrote in message
...
Bill wrote:
The last is just silly...

I'd (more or less) agree w/ the other posters...

Agree on separating the 120V on own circuits and moving up to 30A/10ga
over 20A/12ga for at least a couple of the circuits (and if do any,
might as well do all).

Slight disagreement w/ at least one suggestion...30A @240V is enough for
any reasonably efficient 5-horse single-phase motor and given that going
to 30A outlets raises compatibility and cost significantly, I don't see
any need/justification for more than that for anything other than a
dedicated welder circuit or somesuch. Presuming, of course, that the
distances are reasonable so that voltage drops are 5% or less and this
is a typical home shop, not commercial or a behemoth thing...

Agree that the "never enough" for 120V and the overhead are certainly
also truisms as well as the admonition for lights to not be on work outlets.

--





--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

All my 120v shop outlets are quad boxes, with the left outlets on a
separate breaker than the right ones. I run 12/3 to them and use a
ganged breaker so you never have a half-live box.

I've found a ceiling mounted 240v outlet to be *very* handy. It's not a
locking outlet; if you trip over the cord you want it to just pull out.

I have two sets of lights - the regular basement lights, and extra shop
lights. One tripped breaker is not enough to plunge the shop into darkness.

All my shop-specific circuits are off a shop-specific panel, which I can
disconnect at the main panel for safety if needed.

In article , "Josepi" X-Complaints-to: . wrote:
Never combine two motor loads on one circuit.

Nonsense.

The simultaneous starting
current will typically take out the breaker when you least want it to.

Only if you turn both of them on at the same moment -- a rather rare
occurrence in a one-man home workshop, I'd say.

Two motors on any breaker / circuit is a big no-no

More nonsense.

and will also not protect
your equipment from any locked-rotor current. This is when the equipment
jams or shorts out and the circuit breaker is sized wrong for that piece of
equipment (big enough to carry the two motors), does not trip and your motor
windings go up in smoke. Bigger repair bill and possible fire hazard.

You have a serious misunderstanding of the purpose of overcurrent protective
devices. Circuit breakers are there to protect the branch circuit wiring,
*not* the loads that are plugged into the receptacles on that circuit. If a
particular load needs some specific level of overcurrent protection, that is
achieved by fusing that load.

Proper motor protection circuits found in industry

We're talking about a one-man home workshop here, not an industrial
installation.

typically have two levels
of protection, one for the large starting current and one for the typical
loaded running current. Anything lasting longer than the two situations, at
that current level, will trip out the breaker / circuit interupter.

One-man home workshop, remember? How often will two tools be operated
simultaneously?

In home usage only one level of current protection is typically afforded
with a simple breaker. Don't defeat it by combining two motor devices. The
Electrical Inspector would advise against you doing this, if he catches it
or you ask.

Nonsense. How often do you turn two motors on at the same time? How often do
you *use* two motors at the same time (unless one of them is the dust
collector)?

There is _absolutely nothing wrong_ with the OP putting his table saw and air
compressor on the same circuit, or his drill press and jointer. They will
*never* be in use at the same time -- and even if they are, it's not likely to
be a problem unless they're switched on simultaneously. Now you tell me how
often that's going to happen. One-man home workshop, remember?

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , "Josepi" X-Complaints-to: . wrote:
Never combine two motor loads on one circuit.

Nonsense.
....

What he said...

--

From your nonsense comments I see you must operate your compressor with a
manual on/off switch. Imagine you recommending a person operating a table
saw to have it stall in the middle of a cut because they forgot to turn off
the air compressor. You give dangerous advice here.

I don't now what you kind of air compressor you operate but real compressors
have a pressure sensor on the tank to keep the pressure within a range set
by the operator.

As far as overcurrent protection, you have no idea. Don't even try to
convince me of anything in that regard.

I was trying to display some common sense and adherance to most electrical
safety codes. You could try reading yours.


"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , "Josepi" X-Complaints-to:
. wrote:
Never combine two motor loads on one circuit.

Nonsense.

The simultaneous starting
current will typically take out the breaker when you least want it to.

Only if you turn both of them on at the same moment -- a rather rare
occurrence in a one-man home workshop, I'd say.

Two motors on any breaker / circuit is a big no-no

More nonsense.

and will also not protect
your equipment from any locked-rotor current. This is when the equipment
jams or shorts out and the circuit breaker is sized wrong for that piece of
equipment (big enough to carry the two motors), does not trip and your
motor
windings go up in smoke. Bigger repair bill and possible fire hazard.

You have a serious misunderstanding of the purpose of overcurrent protective
devices. Circuit breakers are there to protect the branch circuit wiring,
*not* the loads that are plugged into the receptacles on that circuit. If a
particular load needs some specific level of overcurrent protection, that is
achieved by fusing that load.

Proper motor protection circuits found in industry

We're talking about a one-man home workshop here, not an industrial
installation.

typically have two levels
of protection, one for the large starting current and one for the typical
loaded running current. Anything lasting longer than the two situations, at
that current level, will trip out the breaker / circuit interupter.

One-man home workshop, remember? How often will two tools be operated
simultaneously?

In home usage only one level of current protection is typically afforded
with a simple breaker. Don't defeat it by combining two motor devices. The
Electrical Inspector would advise against you doing this, if he catches it
or you ask.

Nonsense. How often do you turn two motors on at the same time? How often do
you *use* two motors at the same time (unless one of them is the dust
collector)?

There is _absolutely nothing wrong_ with the OP putting his table saw and
air
compressor on the same circuit, or his drill press and jointer. They will
*never* be in use at the same time -- and even if they are, it's not likely
to
be a problem unless they're switched on simultaneously. Now you tell me how
often that's going to happen. One-man home workshop, remember?



--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

(Doug Miller) writes:


Nonsense. How often do you turn two motors on at the same time? How often do
you *use* two motors at the same time (unless one of them is the dust
collector)?

While I agree with you, just to play devil's advocate, I usually run my
2HP dust collector (240v) simultaneously with a 3HP tables saw,
planer or bandsaw. That said, all my 240v tools are on dedicated circuits.

I do have the 240V shop heater (Dayton, ceiling mount) on the same 240
circuit as the shaper, simply because I don't use the shaper that often
(and I ran out of slots in the subpanel).

Compressors are a strange beast, since they may start at anytime the pressure
switch hits some threshold (yet again, I've got mine on a dedicated 120v/20A
breaker).

scott

In article , "Josepi" X-Complaints-to: . wrote:
From your nonsense comments I see you must operate your compressor with a
manual on/off switch. Imagine you recommending a person operating a table
saw to have it stall in the middle of a cut because they forgot to turn off
the air compressor. You give dangerous advice here.

OK, I'll give you that one. The rest of your post was complete nonsense.

As far as overcurrent protection, you have no idea. Don't even try to
convince me of anything in that regard.

Point out exactly what errors you imagine I made in that regard. Hint: you
are completely clueless if you think that branch circuit overcurrent
protection has anything to do with protecting the loads that are plugged into
that circuit.

I was trying to display some common sense

Had you actually managed to do so, it would have been its initial appearance
in your posts.

and adherance to most electrical
safety codes. You could try reading yours.

I'm quite familiar with mine; much more so, apparently, than you are with
yours or any others. Here's a link to mine; perhaps you'd be good enough to
point out where it prohibits putting two motors on the same circuit.

http://nfpaweb3.gvpi.net/rrserver/br...NFPASTD/7008SB

Perhaps you'd also be good enough to explain why the US NEC requires only two
small-appliance circuits in a kitchen -- which, according to you, is enough
for only two motors. Gosh, I must be in big trouble: blender, two mixers,
coffee grinder, can opener... all that on only two circuits...

Don't presume to lecture me on residential electrical installations. You have
no idea.



"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , "Josepi" X-Complaints-to:
. wrote:
Never combine two motor loads on one circuit.

Nonsense.

The simultaneous starting
current will typically take out the breaker when you least want it to.

Only if you turn both of them on at the same moment -- a rather rare
occurrence in a one-man home workshop, I'd say.

Two motors on any breaker / circuit is a big no-no

More nonsense.

and will also not protect
your equipment from any locked-rotor current. This is when the equipment
jams or shorts out and the circuit breaker is sized wrong for that piece of
equipment (big enough to carry the two motors), does not trip and your
motor
windings go up in smoke. Bigger repair bill and possible fire hazard.

You have a serious misunderstanding of the purpose of overcurrent protective
devices. Circuit breakers are there to protect the branch circuit wiring,
*not* the loads that are plugged into the receptacles on that circuit. If a
particular load needs some specific level of overcurrent protection, that is
achieved by fusing that load.

Proper motor protection circuits found in industry

We're talking about a one-man home workshop here, not an industrial
installation.

typically have two levels
of protection, one for the large starting current and one for the typical
loaded running current. Anything lasting longer than the two situations, at
that current level, will trip out the breaker / circuit interupter.

One-man home workshop, remember? How often will two tools be operated
simultaneously?

In home usage only one level of current protection is typically afforded
with a simple breaker. Don't defeat it by combining two motor devices. The
Electrical Inspector would advise against you doing this, if he catches it
or you ask.

Nonsense. How often do you turn two motors on at the same time? How often do
you *use* two motors at the same time (unless one of them is the dust
collector)?

There is _absolutely nothing wrong_ with the OP putting his table saw and
air
compressor on the same circuit, or his drill press and jointer. They will
*never* be in use at the same time -- and even if they are, it's not likely
to
be a problem unless they're switched on simultaneously. Now you tell me how
often that's going to happen. One-man home workshop, remember?



--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

On 6/1/2010 5:05 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
In , "Josepi"X-Complaints-to: . wrote:
From your nonsense comments I see you must operate your compressor with a
manual on/off switch. Imagine you recommending a person operating a table
saw to have it stall in the middle of a cut because they forgot to turn off
the air compressor. You give dangerous advice here.

OK, I'll give you that one. The rest of your post was complete nonsense.

Ayup ...

As far as overcurrent protection, you have no idea. Don't even try to
convince me of anything in that regard.

Point out exactly what errors you imagine I made in that regard. Hint: you
are completely clueless if you think that branch circuit overcurrent
protection has anything to do with protecting the loads that are plugged into
that circuit.

Ayup ...

Don't presume to lecture me on residential electrical installations. You have
no idea.

Ayup!!

BTW, you're getting mellow in your old age, Doug!

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On 6/1/2010 4:34 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:

While I agree with you, just to play devil's advocate, I usually run my
2HP dust collector (240v) simultaneously with a 3HP tables saw,
planer or bandsaw. That said, all my 240v tools are on dedicated circuits.

As are mine.

I do have the 240V shop heater (Dayton, ceiling mount) on the same 240
circuit as the shaper, simply because I don't use the shaper that often
(and I ran out of slots in the subpanel).

Compressors are a strange beast, since they may start at anytime the pressure
switch hits some threshold (yet again, I've got mine on a dedicated 120v/20A
breaker).

I run mine on a 120v non-dedicated circuit that, being in a garage
"shop" on residential property, is required by local code to be GFCI
protected, but I've never had any trouble with the setup at all. The 20A
circuit is shared with a small fan, some undercounter fluorescent
lighting, battery charger, and the occasional shop vac.

One of the good things about a dedicated circuit is that it's exempt
from GFCI protection requirements in most locales where they are
required in "garages" (which is most of them in the US).

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

In article , Swingman wrote:
On 6/1/2010 5:05 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
[...]
Don't presume to lecture me on residential electrical installations. You have
no idea.

Ayup!!

BTW, you're getting mellow in your old age, Doug!

Thanks, Swing, I've been working on that actually...

Swingman writes:
On 6/1/2010 4:34 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:

Compressors are a strange beast, since they may start at anytime the pressure
switch hits some threshold (yet again, I've got mine on a dedicated 120v/20A
breaker).

I run mine on a 120v non-dedicated circuit that, being in a garage
"shop" on residential property, is required by local code to be GFCI
protected, but I've never had any trouble with the setup at all.

IIRC if you use a NEMA L5-20P on that circuit, the GFCI isn't required. That
was the approach I took (since I'm also in the garage).

scott

(Doug Miller) writes:
In article , "Josepi" X-Complaints-to: . wrote:
From your nonsense comments I see you must operate your compressor with a
manual on/off switch. Imagine you recommending a person operating a table
saw to have it stall in the middle of a cut because they forgot to turn off
the air compressor. You give dangerous advice here.

OK, I'll give you that one. The rest of your post was complete nonsense.

As far as overcurrent protection, you have no idea. Don't even try to
convince me of anything in that regard.

Point out exactly what errors you imagine I made in that regard. Hint: you
are completely clueless if you think that branch circuit overcurrent
protection has anything to do with protecting the loads that are plugged into
that circuit.

Do keep in mind that Josepi is posting from the UK, where the code may differ.

scott

"DJ Delorie" wrote in message
...

All my shop-specific circuits are off a shop-specific panel, which I can
disconnect at the main panel for safety if needed.


I bought a "shop specific" panel already. I've already considered that the
lighting should be on
separate circuits. I'm glad I bought a bigger panel than I thought I needed
at the time (I bought
the 24 pole one Lew advised).

Thank all of you for helping me to learn more about these matters!

I am surely not an expert and don't pretend to be one here. I have a couple
of follow-up questions.

1. If having GFCI at the outlet and at the C'Breaker is redundant, then how
come they now required GFCI at the outlet in bathrooms? Someone, I think a
maintenance person, explained to me that having it at the outlet is more
effective because it is closer to the source--and trips significantly
faster/easier. Is this nonsense?


2. Consider running 30 Amps to the 240v outlets as has been suggested. A
Grizzly G0690 TS is 15 Amps (240v) and Grizzly suggests that it should be on
a 20 Amp circuilt. Does this imply it would be prudent to use a 20 Amp fuse
near the connection to help protect the equiptment. Lew always said that
the CBs are there to protect the lines and Not the equiptment.


3. It was suggested to run 2 120v branch circuits. Fine to run these off
of one 14-3 cable?

4. Any problem with ripping down all of the drywall around the main panel
for a while so I can "see everything"? I'm intending to install the
subpanel adjacent to the main panel. I will of course turn off the
main-breaker in the main panel before I do anything and I will keep in mind
that the lines going into the main panel are still live.

I think that the "worst" part of this whole operation may be drilling
vertically up into the attic where there are already so many wires coming
out of the main panel--and it's neer impossible to view from the attic
because it is so close to the eave. I suspect I'll be "fishing" with a
coathanger, stapling 8 feet along the attic framing and then going down into
the wall. I think that my own standards are higher than those who have
worked in the attic before...I've started wrapping plastic conduit around
some of the small wires passing through.

I hope I'm not the only one who has learning something from this thread.
Thanks!

Bill

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...

2) I'd use 10/3 for the 240v circuits. You may not need it now, but
the extra current capacity is there. The DC will probably never need that
kind of capacity, but at some point, you may put something else there.


Ah, I get it now. Use 10/3 NM cable, but still use a 20 Amp C-B (duh).
No fuse necessary (to protect the equiptment).

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...

The air compressor could be on the same circuit as either the table saw or
the
dust collector, since it's unlikely that you'd ever be using it at the
same
time as either of the others.


Your point is well-taken. Unfortunatey, I'm not fully comitted on where the
tools are going to be (I may decide I want the DC
closer to the door to improve the sound-level). Dedicated 240v lines seems
to maximize flexability, which
seems appropriate. Thanks for making me think!

Bill

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
news:be4235af-adbc-4050-8fbe-

The top of my workbench overhangs the support frame by about 5 inches.
I put a 120V duplex every 2.5 feet or so along the frame under the
overhang, facing out into the shop.

This keeps the top of the workbench clear of cords running from the
back wall (as pictured in your "garage" sketch) when using sanders,
heat guns, etc.


DD,

This is a nice idea. Is the workbench powered using a male-male extension
cord to the wall?
Sorry if the answer is obvious.

Bill

On 6/1/2010 5:41 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
In , wrote:
On 6/1/2010 5:05 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
[...]
Don't presume to lecture me on residential electrical installations. You have
no idea.

Ayup!!

BTW, you're getting mellow in your old age, Doug!

Thanks, Swing, I've been working on that actually...

Me too ... but age based cynicism creeps into everything, if you let it.

How's your Eagle Scout doing these days? Strangely enough, it is the
thought of folks like your son, and Leon's, that give us old cynics hope
for the future.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

In article , wrote:
(Doug Miller) writes:
In article , "Josepi" X-Complaints-to:
. wrote:
From your nonsense comments I see you must operate your compressor with a
manual on/off switch. Imagine you recommending a person operating a table
saw to have it stall in the middle of a cut because they forgot to turn off
the air compressor. You give dangerous advice here.

OK, I'll give you that one. The rest of your post was complete nonsense.

As far as overcurrent protection, you have no idea. Don't even try to
convince me of anything in that regard.

Point out exactly what errors you imagine I made in that regard. Hint: you
are completely clueless if you think that branch circuit overcurrent
protection has anything to do with protecting the loads that are plugged into
that circuit.

Do keep in mind that Josepi is posting from the UK, where the code may differ.


That doesn't make any difference: branch circuit overcurrent protection is
there to protect the branch circuit wiring, not the loads. If you want to
protect a load, put a fuse on the load -- which, as I understand it, is pretty
common practice in the UK, which makes his ignorance of the purpose of branch
circuit overcurrent protection even less excusable.

In article , "Bill" wrote:

Thank all of you for helping me to learn more about these matters!

I am surely not an expert and don't pretend to be one here. I have a couple
of follow-up questions.

1. If having GFCI at the outlet and at the C'Breaker is redundant, then how
come they now required GFCI at the outlet in bathrooms?

That's *not* required. At least not by the NEC. All the NEC requires is that
the outlets "shall have ground-fault circuit interrupter protection". It does
not specify where that protection is located.

Someone, I think a
maintenance person, explained to me that having it at the outlet is more
effective because it is closer to the source--and trips significantly
faster/easier. Is this nonsense?

Yes, it is. Be careful taking wiring advice from this person. Even if the
outlet is 100 meters from the breaker, the difference in trip speed due to the
distance is on the order of half a microsecond.

There is one legitimate reason for putting the protection at the outlet: it's
easier to reset if it trips -- mostly because it's easier to find.


2. Consider running 30 Amps to the 240v outlets as has been suggested. A
Grizzly G0690 TS is 15 Amps (240v) and Grizzly suggests that it should be on
a 20 Amp circuilt. Does this imply it would be prudent to use a 20 Amp fuse
near the connection to help protect the equiptment. Lew always said that
the CBs are there to protect the lines and Not the equiptment.

Lew is right. But what do you think you might need to protect the equipment
from? Consider this: you use 0.5A light bulbs on a 15A circuit all the time
and never worry about it.

3. It was suggested to run 2 120v branch circuits. Fine to run these off
of one 14-3 cable?

NO. You definitely want 12-3 with a 20A breaker for shop use.

4. Any problem with ripping down all of the drywall around the main panel
for a while so I can "see everything"?

Yes: you create a lot of unnecessary drywall repair work for yourself. All of
the really important stuff to see is inside the main panel; what do you expect
you might see behind the drywall besides a bunch of cables?

I'm intending to install the
subpanel adjacent to the main panel. I will of course turn off the
main-breaker in the main panel before I do anything

If the feed to the subpanel is coming from lugs in the main panel, then yes,
you need to power off the main. If it's coming from a circuit breaker in the
main panel -- which is a much better idea -- then there's really no need to
power off the main as long as you don't put your fingers in places they don't
belong. Make sure that the circuit breaker feeding the subpanel is off before
you connect the feed to it, otherwise the shaft of your screwdriver becomes
live, which could lead to unpleasant surprises. And let's be clear he I am
NOT talking about the disconnect breaker in the subpanel; I'm talking about
the breaker that you put in the main panel to connect the subpanel feed from.

and I will keep in mind
that the lines going into the main panel are still live.

Always a good thing to remember. :-)

In article , "Bill" wrote:

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...

2) I'd use 10/3 for the 240v circuits. You may not need it now, but
the extra current capacity is there. The DC will probably never need that
kind of capacity, but at some point, you may put something else there.


Ah, I get it now. Use 10/3 NM cable, but still use a 20 Amp C-B (duh).

Or use a 30A breaker.

No fuse necessary (to protect the equiptment).

No fuse necessary anyway (to protect it from what?)

In article , "Bill" wrote:

Your point is well-taken. Unfortunatey, I'm not fully comitted on where the
tools are going to be (I may decide I want the DC
closer to the door to improve the sound-level). Dedicated 240v lines seems
to maximize flexability, which
seems appropriate. Thanks for making me think!

If you have the option of locating the dust collector outside the shop and
having only the ducts inside, that's something to consider.

There are pluses and minuses either way. Having the DC outside the shop means
less noise and dust inside the shop -- but more noise and dust outside. If
you live in sufficiently rural area where the noise won't bother neighbors,
think about putting the DC outdoors (protected from the weather, of course).

In article , Swingman wrote:
On 6/1/2010 5:41 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
In ,
wrote:
On 6/1/2010 5:05 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
[...]
Don't presume to lecture me on residential electrical installations. You
have
no idea.

Ayup!!

BTW, you're getting mellow in your old age, Doug!

Thanks, Swing, I've been working on that actually...

Me too ... but age based cynicism creeps into everything, if you let it.

How's your Eagle Scout doing these days? Strangely enough, it is the
thought of folks like your son, and Leon's, that give us old cynics hope
for the future.

Thanks for asking. He's doing pretty well, has one year of college under his
belt now, and is working two jobs this summer to earn money for the fall
semester. He's also about half-way through a fairly ambitious project on his
car ('96 Firebird, 3600 V6): swapping out the automatic transmission for a
five-speed stick. Car's up on jackstands in the garage now. I'll be helping
him put the manual transmission in there tomorrow evening after he gets home
from work.

In article , (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , "Bill"
wrote:

Thank all of you for helping me to learn more about these matters!

I am surely not an expert and don't pretend to be one here. I have a couple
of follow-up questions.

1. If having GFCI at the outlet and at the C'Breaker is redundant, then how
come they now required GFCI at the outlet in bathrooms?

That's *not* required. At least not by the NEC. All the NEC requires is that
the outlets "shall have ground-fault circuit interrupter protection". It does
not specify where that protection is located.

Meant to add this, too: Although that's not required by the NEC, it could be a
requirement of your _local_ codes. Chicago, for example, has some requirements
that go waaaay beyond what the NEC demands. Something about a bad fire a while
back, I think... Don't know for sure if this is correct, but I seem to
remember hearing a few years ago that Baltimore and Philadelphia have codes
that are more restrictive than the NEC as well.

Yes, some of this is nonsense. Having the GFCI at the receptical is more
convenience to reset and easier to see what happened if it trips.

Breaker panel GFCIs have been brutally expensive in years past compared to
receptical types. They are getting cheaper. Many bubble tubs are wired with
a receptical type GFCI at the panel, labelled and then a circuit taken to
the tub due to price differences.

Tripping faster is nonsense. The GFCI senses differential current. OTOW it
compares the hot leg current with the neutral current to see if they are the
same. If there is a difference then there is current leaking to ground and a
fault in the equipment. It does not protect the equipment from stalled
currents or internal shorts unless it goes to the case. Mostly it protects
the human by tripping out fast so the time the fault travels through your
body is limited. Contrary to what some say they do not limit the actual
current level amount. This does not matter where it is done.

I am not in the UK despite what the OCD boy thinks.


"Bill" wrote in message
...
1. If having GFCI at the outlet and at the C'Breaker is redundant, then how
come they now required GFCI at the outlet in bathrooms? Someone, I think a
maintenance person, explained to me that having it at the outlet is more
effective because it is closer to the source--and trips significantly
faster/easier. Is this nonsense?

Bill




--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

"Doug Miller" wrote

Thanks for asking. He's doing pretty well, has one year of college under
his
belt now, and is working two jobs this summer to earn money for the fall
semester. He's also about half-way through a fairly ambitious project on
his
car ('96 Firebird, 3600 V6): swapping out the automatic transmission for a
five-speed stick. Car's up on jackstands in the garage now. I'll be
helping
him put the manual transmission in there tomorrow evening after he gets
home
from work.

A pontiac firebird, eh? A classic muscle car. And since pontiacs are now an
endabgered species, it will probably be worth some money someday.

Tell him to take care of it and it will turn into an investment of sorts one
of these days.

And he is one of the good ones. He is gonna make you proud of him, again and
again.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...

Doug Miller, Thank you for your reply. It is very informative and helpful!


4. Any problem with ripping down all of the drywall around the main panel
for a while so I can "see everything"?

Yes: you create a lot of unnecessary drywall repair work for yourself.


Well, the drywall there is probably almost 40 years old and on it's second
main panel.
As long as I am replacing 3/4 of the drywall on 2 walls, maybe 3 before I'm
finished, I may
as well make the drywall near the main panel look Nice! : )


If the feed to the subpanel is coming from lugs in the main panel, then
yes,
you need to power off the main. If it's coming from a circuit breaker in
the
main panel -- which is a much better idea -- then there's really no need
to
power off the main as long as you don't put your fingers in places they
don't
belong. Make sure that the circuit breaker feeding the subpanel is off
before
you connect the feed to it, otherwise the shaft of your screwdriver
becomes
live, which could lead to unpleasant surprises. And let's be clear he I
am
NOT talking about the disconnect breaker in the subpanel; I'm talking
about
the breaker that you put in the main panel to connect the subpanel feed
from.


I'll tell ya Mr. Miller. There are folks here who don't believe I should be
doing anything
to any walls that have any live wires in them! I appreciate the precision
with which
you have described the operation above. It reminds me of an anecdote which
I have found humorous since I heard it:

There was a old blues singer, "Big Joe Williams" who frequented the
barrelhouses
and who I believe, besides for his music, was known for his temper,
fighting, drinking and
just being a "rough character". One day he decided he wanted to buy a gun.
His friends escorted him to an purveyor of firearms (i.e. a gun store).
They said to
the store owner, "Mr. Williams here would like to buy a gun", meanwhile
standing
behind Joe Williams emphatically shaking their heads and mouthing "No, No,
No!"

I suspect that what you wrote may have caused a similar reaction from some
readers.
Maybe they'll speak up if I am correct. : ) I doubt that I'll be adding
any CBs to
any live panels anytime soon...

Thank you again for your assistance. I'm hope to make meaningful progress
during the
next week.

Bill

On Jun 1, 2:44*am, "Bill" wrote:
Prompted by suggestions that a shop needs convenient power, *I created a
(pdf) SU view of my proposed outlet configuration (for one wall), and also a
corresponding wiring model:

http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/

Comments or suggestions welcome. *In fact, all I seek is a simple nod.
Thank you again to those of you who helped me to reach this point (of
understanding)!

Bill, here is something from the Antifaq I hope it helps:

5.1 HOW DO I WIRE MY SHOP?

As my friend Doug, the journeyman cabinetmaker, says: there's only
four things you gotta know about being an electrician:

S--- flows downhill, Payday is on Friday, It may be s--- to you but
its bread and butter to them, and Every asshole is a potential
customer.

Oops! That was about plumbers. Forget it. Anyway, Doug is just jealous
of plumbers 'cause they make more money than cabinetmakers, just like
Tom.

Actually, all the regulars and most of the newbies on the wreck are
electrical experts. That's why any thread on wiring and electricity
gets so many responses. Most of us work with electricity all the time.
After all computers and power tools are electrical, and so's the TV we
watch Norm on. If you want to change the plug on your tablesaw, you
still need to know everything about wiring and amps and volts and
watts and volt-amps and wire gauges and phases and power factors and
impedance and resistance and plug configurations and panel sizes and
capacitors and motors and switches and electrical codes.

But that's OK, don't be afraid. You can trust any wiring and
electrical advice from anybody on the wreck, apply it and be
absolutely sure that it will meet code and be perfectly safe. No point
in getting ripped off by electricians or consulting an inspector. Just
ask away on the group and you can be sure of getting a whole lot of
accurate and consistent responses, just like when you ask any math
question of all the rocket scientists on the wreck.

HTH

Luigi

1. If having GFCI at the outlet and at the C'Breaker is redundant,

No, a panel GFCI and an outlet GFCI are redundant. You need *one* GFCI
per circuit, extras won't help. You need *one* breaker per circuit.
Breakers and GFCIs serve two different purposes.

2. Consider running 30 Amps to the 240v outlets as has been suggested. A
Grizzly G0690 TS is 15 Amps (240v) and Grizzly suggests that it should be on
a 20 Amp circuilt. Does this imply it would be prudent to use a 20 Amp fuse
near the connection to help protect the equiptment. Lew always said that
the CBs are there to protect the lines and Not the equiptment.

If you use a 30 amp breaker, you have to have everything permanent on
that circuit rated for 30 amps - wiring and outlet. That means your TS
needs a 30 amp plug, although code does not require the TS to have
wiring rated for 30 amps. If you *do* put a 20 amp rated tool on a 30
amp circuit, it would be prudent (but not required by code) to put
additional protection on that's sized for the tool.

3. It was suggested to run 2 120v branch circuits. Fine to run these off
of one 14-3 cable?

I wouldn't use 14 gauge wire at all in a shop - that's limited to 15
amps, and many of my tools need 20 amp anyway, which means 12 gauge.

As for putting two 120v outlets on a single 240v wire - check with your
local code and find out what the rules are. Most likely, you'll at
least need to use a ganged breaker to protect the branch properly.

"Luigi Zanasi" wrote in message
news:9ca52b6c-e329-4a93-bc9a-

Just ask away on the group and you can be sure of getting a whole lot of
accurate and consistent responses, just like when you ask any math
question of all the rocket scientists on the wreck.


Luigi,

Your concerns are well-taken. But I do not require a lot of consistent
responses.
I think if 3 different contractors showed up at my door, they would not be
consistent.
I do not even think they would try to understand my needs as well as the
folks here do. I have earned a PhD in mathematics so I can field at least
some of your math questions with some authority, just as some of the
folks here have been able to field my questions about electricity with the
same sort of authority. I think you are under-estimating the amount of
intellect
which is here. Why you choose to take this point of view I am uncertain.
I think it is not so difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff. It is
more
difficult to navigate my attic--but I am working on that! : ) I wonder
how many
people learned something useful about GFCI today? I know I did--or at
least, I think I did!

Best,
Bill

GFI pricing

There are two ways to a GFI device, a C'bkr that gets mounted in a
panel or a receptacle that goes into a wall box.

Both have the same "smarts".

The C'bkr GFI is manufactured by the Circuit Protective Device
industry.

The receptacle GFI is manufactured by the Wiring Device industry.

The two are totally different businesses.

Different cost structures, different marketing methods, etc, etc.

There is significantly more price pressure on wiring device products
than on circuit protective products.

Lew

"DJ Delorie" wrote in message
...
1. If having GFCI at the outlet and at the C'Breaker is redundant,

No, a panel GFCI and an outlet GFCI are redundant. You need *one* GFCI
per circuit, extras won't help. You need *one* breaker per circuit.
Breakers and GFCIs serve two different purposes.

Yes. By panel GFCI, I meant a C-B with a built-in GFCI. I apologize for not
being more careful in my writing. It is nice to know that having a GFCI at
the panel suffices!



2. Consider running 30 Amps to the 240v outlets as has been suggested.
A
Grizzly G0690 TS is 15 Amps (240v) and Grizzly suggests that it should be
on
a 20 Amp circuilt. Does this imply it would be prudent to use a 20 Amp
fuse
near the connection to help protect the equiptment. Lew always said that
the CBs are there to protect the lines and Not the equiptment.

If you use a 30 amp breaker, you have to have everything permanent on that
circuit rated for 30 amps - wiring and outlet. That means your TS needs a
30 amp plug, although code does not require the TS to have wiring rated
for 30 amps. If you *do* put a 20 amp rated tool on a 30 amp circuit, it
would be prudent (but not required by code) to put additional protection
on that's sized for the tool.

Thank you. I had been thinking about this ever since it came up.
In my situation, I was thinking that the prudent thing to do, is to stick
with the 20 Amp
CBs, and consider installing heavier wire where I think I might like to have
it someday.
I learned "plenty" about 20, 30 and 50 amp 240v plugs and outlets a few
months ago!



3. It was suggested to run 2 120v branch circuits. Fine to run these
off
of one 14-3 cable?

I wouldn't use 14 gauge wire at all in a shop - that's limited to 15 amps,
and many of my tools need 20 amp anyway, which means 12 gauge.

As for putting two 120v outlets on a single 240v wire - check with your
local code and find out what the rules are. Most likely, you'll at least
need to use a ganged breaker to protect the branch properly.

That's what I had in mind (ganged breaker). The reference to 14-3 was a
momentary slip-up on my part.
As I see it, and as someone else surely brought to my attention, is that the
problem with such
a circuit configuration is that it can be half-live and half-dead.
Potentially confusing!

Thank you for your help!
Bill

My understanding of the NEC is that one cannot have a duplex outlet within
30 inches to the left of right of a main panel or subpanel.
This is correct, is it not? I'm laying out wall #2 now. SU is
"heaven-sent" ! : )

Bill

"Luigi Zanasi" wrote in message
news:9ca52b6c-e329-4a93-bc9a-

Bill, here is something from the Antifaq I hope it helps:

5.1 HOW DO I WIRE MY SHOP?

As my friend Doug, the journeyman cabinetmaker, says...



Luigi Zanasi, I see you pasted from something called "rec.woodworking's
Antifaq". I never saw it referenced here before.
Since you didn't post any of your own words, unless you wrote the Antifaq,
what point were you trying to make? Sorry, if your post was intended as a
joke--sometime humor passes by me unnoticed as such.

Best,
Bill

"Bill" wrote in message
...
Prompted by suggestions that a shop needs convenient power, I created a
(pdf) SU view of my proposed outlet configuration (for one wall), and also
a corresponding wiring model:

http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/


I updated my wiring diagram and posted the new one in the same place in case
it might be of interest to anyone.

BTW, the "doubly-ganged C-B" is evidently referred to as "Tandem" if you
haven't already seen them
on your grocer's shelf! : )

Bill