Lake Erie is considered freshwater. You can look on google maps to be sure.
Perhaps this is why they don't think they need foolish wire requirements.


"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
Well, someone failed geography.



On 8/31/2010 1:19 AM, Josepi wrote:
Maybe it's a sal****er corrosive environment there?...LOL


wrote in message
.168...

14 ga. 15 amp outlet circuits are allowed in the Buffalo, NY area.

Yes I have heard the NEC doesn't follow some of their basic constraints. Odd
rule.

The CEC would require a 20A receptical to be used with a 20A breaker. No
quantity of 15A recepticals would nullify the 20A circuit capacity but 20A
receptical didn't used to be used for normal residential applications
either. I am not sure when it became allowed. It seems to be related with
getting rid of the split kitchen recepticals due to lack of GFCI
availability on the split outlets in kitchens. A few other items , related
to kitchen outlets, changed last revision, also. Took a lesson from the
NEC??


"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
On 8/31/2010 1:25 AM, Josepi wrote:
15 ampere recepticals, or any 15A device, requires a 15A breaker to
protect
it in our code.

It would help if you stated what specific code you are referencing.

NEC allows 15A receptacles on 20A circuits as long as there are multiple
receptacles. See Table 210.23(B)(3).

If you are constrained by a local code which is not based on NEC then YMMV.

Why not run 14Ga wire on a 20A breaker then?

Because code does not allow it.

Now you plug in a #18 Ga lamp socket and cord wire into a 20A circuit?

Code ends at the receptacle. Whatever is plugged into that receptacle
may be subject to fire codes, construction codes, or other safety codes,
but it is not in general addressed by the National Electrical Code.

The
15A circuit was bad enough that they have to tell you not to conceal a
lamp
or extension cord so the heat can escape...LOL

The breaker is not there to protect portable appliances.

"Scott wrote in message
.. .
You are mistaken. The code requires a certain density of
receptacles in a bedroom. The ampacity of the branch circuit is
calculated based on the number of receptacles on a branch circuit and some
very conservatively (err on the side of safety) estimated expected loads.

The gauge of the branch circuit wiring is based on the rating of the
overcurrent
protection device with the required branch circuit ampacity. An
overcurrent protection device rated at 20 amperes, will require a mininum
of AWG 12 wire (possibly AWG 10 depending on the distance between the
overcurrent protection device and the set of protected devices to avoid
excessive
voltage drop).

The typical residential duplex NEMA 5-15R receptacle is rated to support
two
devices
which combined, must not consume more than 1.8KW. These receptacles
will accomodate only NEMA 5-15P plugs. NEMA 5-20R duplex receptacles
are available that will accomodate both 5-15P and 5-12P plug, but are very
uncommon in residential work.

Note again, the branch circuit wiring is always sized to the overcurrent
protection device, not the branch device, so a 20A breaker protecting four
or five NEMA-15R duplex receptacles would require miniumum AWG12 wiring
throughout the branch circuit.

scott

On Tue, 31 Aug 2010 21:56:48 -0400, "Josepi" wrote:

Lake Erie is considered freshwater. You can look on google maps to be sure.
Perhaps this is why they don't think they need foolish wire requirements.

Another example of your illiteracy (geographic and otherwise).


"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
Well, someone failed geography.



On 8/31/2010 1:19 AM, Josepi wrote:
Maybe it's a sal****er corrosive environment there?...LOL


wrote in message
.168...

14 ga. 15 amp outlet circuits are allowed in the Buffalo, NY area.

On 8/31/2010 10:02 PM, Josepi wrote:
Yes I have heard the NEC doesn't follow some of their basic constraints. Odd
rule.

The CEC would require a 20A receptical to be used with a 20A breaker. No
quantity of 15A recepticals would nullify the 20A circuit capacity but 20A
receptical didn't used to be used for normal residential applications
either. I am not sure when it became allowed. It seems to be related with
getting rid of the split kitchen recepticals due to lack of GFCI
availability on the split outlets in kitchens. A few other items , related
to kitchen outlets, changed last revision, also. Took a lesson from the
NEC??


"J. wrote in message
...
On 8/31/2010 1:25 AM, Josepi wrote:
15 ampere recepticals, or any 15A device, requires a 15A breaker to
protect
it in our code.

It would help if you stated what specific code you are referencing.

NEC allows 15A receptacles on 20A circuits as long as there are multiple
receptacles. See Table 210.23(B)(3).

If you are constrained by a local code which is not based on NEC then YMMV.

Why not run 14Ga wire on a 20A breaker then?

Because code does not allow it.

Now you plug in a #18 Ga lamp socket and cord wire into a 20A circuit?

Code ends at the receptacle. Whatever is plugged into that receptacle
may be subject to fire codes, construction codes, or other safety codes,
but it is not in general addressed by the National Electrical Code.

I see. So you are pontificating about what code does and does not allow
based on your experience in Canada. Perhaps you should learn to ask
what code applies before you start foaming at the mouth.

The
15A circuit was bad enough that they have to tell you not to conceal a
lamp
or extension cord so the heat can escape...LOL

The breaker is not there to protect portable appliances.

"Scott wrote in message
.. .
You are mistaken. The code requires a certain density of
receptacles in a bedroom. The ampacity of the branch circuit is
calculated based on the number of receptacles on a branch circuit and some
very conservatively (err on the side of safety) estimated expected loads.

The gauge of the branch circuit wiring is based on the rating of the
overcurrent
protection device with the required branch circuit ampacity. An
overcurrent protection device rated at 20 amperes, will require a mininum
of AWG 12 wire (possibly AWG 10 depending on the distance between the
overcurrent protection device and the set of protected devices to avoid
excessive
voltage drop).

The typical residential duplex NEMA 5-15R receptacle is rated to support
two
devices
which combined, must not consume more than 1.8KW. These receptacles
will accomodate only NEMA 5-15P plugs. NEMA 5-20R duplex receptacles
are available that will accomodate both 5-15P and 5-12P plug, but are very
uncommon in residential work.

Note again, the branch circuit wiring is always sized to the overcurrent
protection device, not the branch device, so a 20A breaker protecting four
or five NEMA-15R duplex receptacles would require miniumum AWG12 wiring
throughout the branch circuit.

scott

On 8/31/2010 9:54 PM, Josepi wrote:
I did quit my day job after 34 years of inspecting wiring.... just not
smplified residential stuff....LOL

Then maybe you shouldn't pontificate about matters you do not understand.

Using a 20 ampere circuit breaker on a residential circuit wired to devices
that are only rated to be on a 15 ampere circuit is not "exceeding code" but
rather not meeting "minimum code".

What devices are these?

Ridiculous logic and would get you
laughed out of any electrical crew.

Well then the people who wire most houses must have been laughed out of
any electrical crew. So I wonder who does do that wiring since by your
argument ti can't be an "electrical crew". And chapter and verse of the
code have been given to you.

Perhaps we should wire all our
residential circuits to the main breaker directly, without sub protection
because it "exceeds the code"? You must have some electrical code there.

Nope. That doesn't "exceed code", that violates code. But there is
nothing in the code that says that you can't use heavier wire than is
called for, which is your argument.

What does your electrical code say about connections between an #18Ga wire
with a #12Ga wire?

That one should use a wire nut or other approved connector.

Yup, I owned a house wire #12AL wire also and it definitely has it's
problems if not done with good techniques. It could return some day with
copper prices soaring lately. I had some "electrician" use the old "push in,
self grabbing" connections with aluminum and a few burned up. One devices
were redesigned with screws that could handle the #12AWG wire things
improved. Hope to avoid that junk in the future in my homes. Quite common on
larger conductors by utilities and higher current applications that make the
connection hassles worth the metal savings.


"J. wrote in message
...
On 8/31/2010 1:18 AM, Josepi wrote:
12 Ga wire is just a waste of time and money.

A 20 amp breaker would not be allowed to feed most of the lamp fixtures
anyway, with their #18Ga internal wiring,

If you have visions of becoming an electrician, don't quit your day job.
The "internal wiring" of a UL listed lamp fixture has no bearing on
breaker size. If it did then those fixtures would not be allowed on a
15 amp breaker either. The general rule is that the breaker is to
protect the circuit, not the device served by that circuit.

let alone get the #12 under a
screw head terminal that is not rated for the mechanics of it.

Would you be kind enough to identify a UL listed light fixture currently
on the market that has screw head terminals that will not take #12 wire?

The #14 wire is way over engineered already for the recommended max device
rules etc.. and now people come along and try to use a safety factor on
top
of all the safety factors built in?

Yep.

Usually, following recommendations and minimum requirements are the "best
practice" from a century of engineering design and field experience.

Nope. The code is a _minimum_ standard. No inspector is going to fault
an electrician for _exceeding_ code. I wish that code had been exceeded
in my house--they wired it all with 12 gage aluminum, barely meeting
code, which I'm slowly replacing with 12 gage copper.

Having said that, many long runs should have #12 used for voltage drop in
ling houses.

Whatever a "ling house" may be.

"J. wrote in message
...
On 8/29/2010 2:32 AM, Morgans wrote:
There is "code" and there is "best practice". Quite frankly if you are
the sort of contractor who does everything to barely pass inspection I
don't want you to work for me.

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
On 8/31/2010 10:02 PM, Josepi wrote:
Yes I have heard the NEC doesn't follow some of their basic constraints.
Odd
rule.

The CEC would require a 20A receptical to be used with a 20A breaker. No
quantity of 15A recepticals would nullify the 20A circuit capacity but
20A
receptical didn't used to be used for normal residential applications
either. I am not sure when it became allowed. It seems to be related with
getting rid of the split kitchen recepticals due to lack of GFCI
availability on the split outlets in kitchens. A few other items ,
related
to kitchen outlets, changed last revision, also. Took a lesson from the
NEC??


"J. wrote in message
...
On 8/31/2010 1:25 AM, Josepi wrote:
15 ampere recepticals, or any 15A device, requires a 15A breaker to
protect
it in our code.

It would help if you stated what specific code you are referencing.

NEC allows 15A receptacles on 20A circuits as long as there are multiple
receptacles. See Table 210.23(B)(3).

If you are constrained by a local code which is not based on NEC then
YMMV.

Why not run 14Ga wire on a 20A breaker then?

Because code does not allow it.

Now you plug in a #18 Ga lamp socket and cord wire into a 20A circuit?

Code ends at the receptacle. Whatever is plugged into that receptacle
may be subject to fire codes, construction codes, or other safety codes,
but it is not in general addressed by the National Electrical Code.

I see. So you are pontificating about what code does and does not allow
based on your experience in Canada. Perhaps you should learn to ask what
code applies before you start foaming at the mouth.

Perhaps you should state what code you are referencing. This is not a US
only group.

"J. Clarke" wrote

There is "code" and there is "best practice". Quite frankly if you are the
sort of contractor who does everything to barely pass inspection I don't
want you to work for me.

I fail to see why 15 amps for bedroom and other receptacle circuits is not
adequate. What are you trying to run off of these outlets, that 15 amps is
not enough to supply them?

Someone said in the Northeast, this 20 amp practice was the norm. Are you
trying to heat the fricking house with electric space heaters, or something.

Simply stated, you have told me what is common practice in your part of the
country. I have told you what is common practice in this part of the
country. It meets code. It is safe. It is adequate capacity for our
needs. If you have more need for higher amounts of power, you put in
another circuit, like for entertainment centers and such.

I have told you why we do what we do around here. I am not making this up.
EVERYONE that I have talked to, homeowners and electricians alike use 15
amps. I have observed every house, new and old, using 15 amp bedroom and
other living area branches. Of course, this does not include required areas
for 20 amps, such as kitchens and other places where heavy use of power
tools is likely to take place, such as garages and basements. How about you
tell me why it is standard practice to use 20 amp circuits in your region?

You made a crack about doing work to barely pass inspection. First, let me
say I resent the implication. I have always prided myself as doing way
above average work, at or well above many areas of code. It has been rare
that I have not passed inspections on the first attempt, and then it would
be a small overlooked detail that was fixed easily and quickly, while the
inspector was still there.

If you want to get snotty, I maintain that using 15 amp rated outlets on 20
amp circuits is unwise and potentially dangerous. Sure, it meets code, but
I would say the same thing to people that follow that practice as what was
said to me, above.

It is entirely possible that a device consuming 20 amps would be plugged
into one 15 amp outlet, on a 20 amp breaker. In this case, feed through
means squat. The outlet has been overloaded, and you are now a fire tester.
You could have an outlet melt down and start a fire. If you want to use 20
amp circuits, spend the extra money to buy 20 amp rated outlets and
switches. Any other practice would be unacceptable if you are working for
me.

From a practical philosophy, I would rather wire two 15 amp circuits in an
area than use a single 20 amp circuit. There is nothing dangerous about
this philosophy, and you get more capacity and more redundancy, if
consumption is an issue in an area.
--
Jim in NC

What "parts" are you around that does not allow 14 ga. 15 amp circuits?
What
country are you in?

And _you_ added the "... 15 amp circuits?" why?

I wish I could understand your gibberish. What are you asking? The
discussion all along has been about using 12 ga wire, and 20 amp circuits,
starting out while discussing bedrooms, I believe. I asked why anyone would
want to do that, and that all that is required to fully meet NEC is 14 ga 15
amp. Oh, that, and the relatively new arc fault detector breaker style. I
have my own opinion on that one, but I am willing to follow code, no matter
how stupid I think it is. So, what are you asking?

That addition on your part won't give you the wiggle room to crawfish on
your contention that "14 AWG is standard", sic.

http://www.westu.org/upload/images/L...2011-11-09.pdf

Sec. 26-35

If it is in the US, does your area have a different code than the N.E.C.
?

So you are saying this is local addendum to code. Ok. I still gotta wonder
what electrical supply company is paying off the officials that wrote that
little jem. Why does anyone think all that is needed? I can't ever
remember blowing a breaker in a bedroom in my house, which is powered (as
are all others I have seen) by 15 amps.

That Google attained knowledge blowing your skirt up and showing your ass?

I don't need to look in Google to attain knowledge in this department. Do
you? Who is blowing smoke, now?

Local jurisdictions _routinely_ amend/except portions of the NEC, IBC, and
IRC for their own use, as above.

Again, why? Add more circuits, if you feel the need. You get more
capacity, and more redundancy.

That stands for national electrical code for those that do not know.
Don't make me pull out a code book and quote it for you.

Yes, Please do ...

Really? I thought others (and you) already stipulated that while 15 amp is
all that is required, 20 amps is local code, per addendum. If you really
gotta have it, I can produce.
--
Jim in NC

"Swingman" wrote

Exactly ... like anything written, the NEC is subject to interpretation
that rivals "that depends upon the what the meaning of "is" is".

I really don't care what any iteration of the NEC says, the inspector
currently onsite is the FINAL arbiter of acceptable electrical practices
... until the next one shows up.


That's another whole line of discussion that could really get my blood
pressure pumping.

Seems to me, code should be interpreted the same, enforced the same - when
in the same enforcement area, be it state, or county, or city, or local.
But we know it isn't, be it electrical, building code, or whatever. ****es
me off, but I can deal with it.
--
Jim in NC

What "parts" are you around that does not allow 14 ga. 15 amp
circuits? What country are you in?

NY doesn't allow it.

snip


NY what?

14 ga. 15 amp circuits are allowed in the Buffalo, NY area.


--
Jack Novak

Thanks Jack, for the input. I will not argue the point if it is code in a
region. There usually good reasons for regional code amendments, but the
reason for this one (if it is one) escapes me.
--
Jim in NC

"Morgans" wrote

Also, he should realize that a staple holding the romex to the stud is
required within 6 inches of the box - for strain relief.

I give on this point. It is indeed 8 inches from the box, if it is not
fastened in the box.

Our electrical class teaches the students to shoot for 6 inches, so they
will easily be within code, in case some inspector wants to be ****y and
pull a tape on the distance.

Besides that, you know how easily some guys can eyeball a 6 inch distance
and swear it is 8 inches! g
--
Jim in NC

On 9/1/2010 2:40 AM, Morgans wrote:
"J. wrote

There is "code" and there is "best practice". Quite frankly if you are the
sort of contractor who does everything to barely pass inspection I don't
want you to work for me.

I fail to see why 15 amps for bedroom and other receptacle circuits is not
adequate. What are you trying to run off of these outlets, that 15 amps is
not enough to supply them?

Heaters, hair dryers, other small appliances. Then there's the matter
of voltage drop. Ever watch a power tool struggle to come up to speed
on a 15 amp circuit and spin right up on a 20?

Someone said in the Northeast, this 20 amp practice was the norm. Are you
trying to heat the fricking house with electric space heaters, or something.

Just supplement the heat in particular locations.

Simply stated, you have told me what is common practice in your part of the
country. I have told you what is common practice in this part of the
country. It meets code. It is safe. It is adequate capacity for our
needs. If you have more need for higher amounts of power, you put in
another circuit, like for entertainment centers and such.

It is cheap crappy workmanship.

I have told you why we do what we do around here.

Because you prefer cheap to good.

I am not making this up.
EVERYONE that I have talked to, homeowners and electricians alike use 15
amps. I have observed every house, new and old, using 15 amp bedroom and
other living area branches. Of course, this does not include required areas
for 20 amps, such as kitchens and other places where heavy use of power
tools is likely to take place, such as garages and basements.

So you're guessing how a room is going to be used and wiring
accordingly. How prescient of you. It's 2010--for all you know that
"bedroom" may become a "home theater" with a huge television, a high
powered audio system, theater popcorn machine, and other such
power-consuming toys. Or end up piled high with servers like one of my
"bedrooms".

But of course in that case you make extra profit because you have to
come back and rip out all of your crummy 15 amp wiring and replace it
with something that will actually carry the load, at much higher cost
and profit to you than doing it right in the first place.

How about you
tell me why it is standard practice to use 20 amp circuits in your region?

Because cheap as Yankees are, we have a heritage of being engineers
rather than beach bunnies or farmers or whatever and balk at shoddy
workmanship that barely passes code.

You made a crack about doing work to barely pass inspection. First, let me
say I resent the implication.

If you "resent the implication" that suggests that it hit close to home.

I have always prided myself as doing way
above average work, at or well above many areas of code.

The fact that you "pride yourself" doesn't mean that you deliver.

It has been rare
that I have not passed inspections on the first attempt, and then it would
be a small overlooked detail that was fixed easily and quickly, while the
inspector was still there.

Lemme guess--"Joseppi" was the inspector.

If you want to get snotty, I maintain that using 15 amp rated outlets on 20
amp circuits is unwise and potentially dangerous. Sure, it meets code, but
I would say the same thing to people that follow that practice as what was
said to me, above.

Then put 20 amp receptacles in if you think that it makes that much
difference. But bust them open and look at the parts and you'll find
that there is no difference in the size of the internal conductors
between a 15A and a 20A receptacle--the only real difference is that the
20A had the extra piece to feed a horizontal prong.

It is entirely possible that a device consuming 20 amps would be plugged
into one 15 amp outlet, on a 20 amp breaker.

It is entirely possible that a device needing 20,000 amps could be so
plugged in. What of it?

In this case, feed through
means squat. The outlet has been overloaded, and you are now a fire tester.

What makes you think that the outlet can't take 20 amps? It's 15 amp
because it's configured to only accept a 15A NEMA plug, not because it
can't carry more current.

You could have an outlet melt down and start a fire. If you want to use 20
amp circuits, spend the extra money to buy 20 amp rated outlets and
switches. Any other practice would be unacceptable if you are working for
me.

Fine. I have no objection to your doing it that way.

From a practical philosophy, I would rather wire two 15 amp circuits in an
area than use a single 20 amp circuit.

So why not wire two 20 amp circuits? You're like a little birdie--cheap
cheap cheap cheap cheap.

There is nothing dangerous about
this philosophy, and you get more capacity and more redundancy, if
consumption is an issue in an area.

Nobody said anything about "dangerous". Code is about "dangerous".
"Best practice" is about having things work _well_ rather than barely work.

On 9/1/2010 1:54 AM, Morgans wrote:

That stands for national electrical code for those that do not know.
Don't make me pull out a code book and quote it for you.

Yes, Please do ...

Really? I thought others (and you) already stipulated that while 15 amp is
all that is required, 20 amps is local code, per addendum. If you really
gotta have it, I can produce.

What's stopping you?

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Sep 1, 6:54*am, "J. Clarke" wrote:
On 9/1/2010 2:40 AM, Morgans wrote:

"J. *wrote

There is "code" and there is "best practice". Quite frankly if you are the
sort of contractor who does everything to barely pass inspection I don't
want you to work for me.

* I fail to see why 15 amps for bedroom and other receptacle circuits is not
adequate. *What are you trying to run off of these outlets, that 15 amps is
not enough to supply them?

Heaters, hair dryers, other small appliances. *Then there's the matter
of voltage drop. *Ever watch a power tool struggle to come up to speed
on a 15 amp circuit and spin right up on a 20?

Or a laser printer in the home office.

I think J.C. just got caught with his pants down. Now the trolling via
semantics is going to start.



"Morgans" wrote in message
...

"J. Clarke" wrote

There is "code" and there is "best practice". Quite frankly if you are the
sort of contractor who does everything to barely pass inspection I don't
want you to work for me.

I fail to see why 15 amps for bedroom and other receptacle circuits is not
adequate. What are you trying to run off of these outlets, that 15 amps is
not enough to supply them?

Someone said in the Northeast, this 20 amp practice was the norm. Are you
trying to heat the fricking house with electric space heaters, or something.

Simply stated, you have told me what is common practice in your part of the
country. I have told you what is common practice in this part of the
country. It meets code. It is safe. It is adequate capacity for our
needs. If you have more need for higher amounts of power, you put in
another circuit, like for entertainment centers and such.

I have told you why we do what we do around here. I am not making this up.
EVERYONE that I have talked to, homeowners and electricians alike use 15
amps. I have observed every house, new and old, using 15 amp bedroom and
other living area branches. Of course, this does not include required areas
for 20 amps, such as kitchens and other places where heavy use of power
tools is likely to take place, such as garages and basements. How about you
tell me why it is standard practice to use 20 amp circuits in your region?

You made a crack about doing work to barely pass inspection. First, let me
say I resent the implication. I have always prided myself as doing way
above average work, at or well above many areas of code. It has been rare
that I have not passed inspections on the first attempt, and then it would
be a small overlooked detail that was fixed easily and quickly, while the
inspector was still there.

If you want to get snotty, I maintain that using 15 amp rated outlets on 20
amp circuits is unwise and potentially dangerous. Sure, it meets code, but
I would say the same thing to people that follow that practice as what was
said to me, above.

It is entirely possible that a device consuming 20 amps would be plugged
into one 15 amp outlet, on a 20 amp breaker. In this case, feed through
means squat. The outlet has been overloaded, and you are now a fire tester.
You could have an outlet melt down and start a fire. If you want to use 20
amp circuits, spend the extra money to buy 20 amp rated outlets and
switches. Any other practice would be unacceptable if you are working for
me.

From a practical philosophy, I would rather wire two 15 amp circuits in an
area than use a single 20 amp circuit. There is nothing dangerous about
this philosophy, and you get more capacity and more redundancy, if
consumption is an issue in an area.
--
Jim in NC

Next they will tell you they put in GFCI / Arc fault 20 ampere breakers in
all their panels.

I think you are being trolled for sport.


"Morgans" wrote in message
news
What "parts" are you around that does not allow 14 ga. 15 amp circuits?
What
country are you in?

And _you_ added the "... 15 amp circuits?" why?

I wish I could understand your gibberish. What are you asking? The
discussion all along has been about using 12 ga wire, and 20 amp circuits,
starting out while discussing bedrooms, I believe. I asked why anyone would
want to do that, and that all that is required to fully meet NEC is 14 ga 15
amp. Oh, that, and the relatively new arc fault detector breaker style. I
have my own opinion on that one, but I am willing to follow code, no matter
how stupid I think it is. So, what are you asking?

That addition on your part won't give you the wiggle room to crawfish on
your contention that "14 AWG is standard", sic.

http://www.westu.org/upload/images/L...2011-11-09.pdf

Sec. 26-35

If it is in the US, does your area have a different code than the N.E.C.
?

So you are saying this is local addendum to code. Ok. I still gotta wonder
what electrical supply company is paying off the officials that wrote that
little jem. Why does anyone think all that is needed? I can't ever
remember blowing a breaker in a bedroom in my house, which is powered (as
are all others I have seen) by 15 amps.

That Google attained knowledge blowing your skirt up and showing your ass?

I don't need to look in Google to attain knowledge in this department. Do
you? Who is blowing smoke, now?

Local jurisdictions _routinely_ amend/except portions of the NEC, IBC, and
IRC for their own use, as above.

Again, why? Add more circuits, if you feel the need. You get more
capacity, and more redundancy.

That stands for national electrical code for those that do not know.
Don't make me pull out a code book and quote it for you.

Yes, Please do ...

Really? I thought others (and you) already stipulated that while 15 amp is
all that is required, 20 amps is local code, per addendum. If you really
gotta have it, I can produce.
--
Jim in NC

Morgans wrote:


Someone said in the Northeast, this 20 amp practice was the norm. Are you
trying to heat the fricking house with electric space
heaters, or something.

I am (at least...) one of the people who made this statement and it reflects
the geographic area in which I am fiamiliar with wiring.


Simply stated, you have told me what is common practice in your part
of the country. I have told you what is common practice in this part
of the country. It meets code. It is safe. It is adequate capacity
for our needs. If you have more need for higher amounts of power,
you put in another circuit, like for entertainment centers and such.

A perfecftly acceptable approach. If done as rework, it's a lot more work
than just running a heavier circuit in the first place though.


I have told you why we do what we do around here. I am not making
this up. EVERYONE that I have talked to, homeowners and electricians
alike use 15 amps. I have observed every house, new and old, using
15 amp bedroom and other living area branches. Of course, this does
not include required areas for 20 amps, such as kitchens and other
places where heavy use of power tools is likely to take place, such
as garages and basements. How about you tell me why it is standard
practice to use 20 amp circuits in your region?

Because commone uses resulted in blown fuses and tripped breakers too
frequently.


If you want to get snotty, I maintain that using 15 amp rated outlets
on 20 amp circuits is unwise and potentially dangerous. Sure, it
meets code, but I would say the same thing to people that follow that
practice as what was said to me, above.

I'm not sure that you could really support that claim with factual evidence
though.


It is entirely possible that a device consuming 20 amps would be
plugged into one 15 amp outlet, on a 20 amp breaker. In this case,
feed through means squat. The outlet has been overloaded, and you
are now a fire tester. You could have an outlet melt down and start a
fire. If you want to use 20 amp circuits, spend the extra money to
buy 20 amp rated outlets and switches. Any other practice would be
unacceptable if you are working for me.

It's not an unreasonable position to suggest the use of 20A outlets and
abandon the use of 15A outlets.


From a practical philosophy, I would rather wire two 15 amp circuits
in an area than use a single 20 amp circuit. There is nothing
dangerous about this philosophy, and you get more capacity and more
redundancy, if consumption is an issue in an area.

For new work - that would work. For rework, running an additional branch
circuit to a previously wired room is not so clean cut. Running 12 ga in
the first place typically avoids the problems found with running 14ga
branches in the first place.

--

-Mike-

On Sep 1, 1:40*am, "Morgans" wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote

snip

If you want to get snotty, I maintain that using 15 amp rated outlets on 20
amp circuits is unwise and potentially dangerous. *Sure, it meets code, but
I would say the same thing to people that follow that practice as what was
said to me, above.

It is entirely possible that a device consuming 20 amps would be plugged
into one 15 amp outlet, on a 20 amp breaker. *In this case, feed through
means squat. *The outlet has been overloaded, and you are now a fire tester.
You could have an outlet melt down and start a fire. *If you want to use 20
amp circuits, spend the extra money to buy 20 amp rated outlets and
switches. *Any other practice would be unacceptable if you are working for
me.

If an appliance draws more than 15A, what is it doing with a 15A
plug? If it has a 20A plug, how is it inserted into a 15A outlet?
Sledge hammer? No, I suppose you don't know that they're different.

From a practical philosophy, I would rather wire two 15 amp circuits in an
area than use a single 20 amp circuit. *There is nothing dangerous about
this philosophy, and you get more capacity and more redundancy, if
consumption is an issue in an area.

I thought your argument against 20A/12AWG was cost.

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in news:4c7e47e1$0$5074
:


Requirements change.

In the '60s, 15A circuits being supplied from 125A panels were state
of the art.

Today, 200A panels with 20A circuits are the norm along along with the
fact the bedroom has a good chance of being converted to a home office
with it added power needs sometime during it's life cycle..

Today, a 15A circuit ranks right up there with the buggy whip as
meeting current needs.

For a typical 2,000 sq ft house, the cost differential between 12AWG
and 14AWG wire is less than $700 at retail, IOW, well under 1% of the
building cost.

If you want to seriously reduce building cost, you need to look else
where.

Lew


The added cost of the heavier wire and better outlets is tiny compared to
the price of having an electrician come back in and upgrade the wiring
later. There's no good reason not to have them put in 20A outlets,
especially in this day and age where nothing (NOTHING!) seems to stop
using power any more.

If we were talking about lighting circuits, things would be different.
There's no reason to use heavier than 15A wiring, because we're actually
using less power to get the same amount (or more) of light.

Puckdropper
--
Never teach your apprentice everything you know.

On 9/2/2010 5:08 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
"Lew wrote in news:4c7e47e1$0$5074
:


Requirements change.

In the '60s, 15A circuits being supplied from 125A panels were state
of the art.

Today, 200A panels with 20A circuits are the norm along along with the
fact the bedroom has a good chance of being converted to a home office
with it added power needs sometime during it's life cycle..

Today, a 15A circuit ranks right up there with the buggy whip as
meeting current needs.

For a typical 2,000 sq ft house, the cost differential between 12AWG
and 14AWG wire is less than $700 at retail, IOW, well under 1% of the
building cost.

If you want to seriously reduce building cost, you need to look else
where.

Lew


The added cost of the heavier wire and better outlets is tiny compared to
the price of having an electrician come back in and upgrade the wiring
later. There's no good reason not to have them put in 20A outlets,
especially in this day and age where nothing (NOTHING!) seems to stop
using power any more.

If we were talking about lighting circuits, things would be different.
There's no reason to use heavier than 15A wiring, because we're actually
using less power to get the same amount (or more) of light.

Good point, on the other hand I dunno about you but I need more light as
I get older. When I moved in here the basement had two 40 watt bare
bulbs. Now it has 800 watts of fluorescent and I suspect that it's
going to get another 800 fairly soon.

"Lew Hodgett" wrote

BTW, what part of Ohio?

SW of Toledo about 30 miles.

Later, there was Ohio State, then Marietta area for a while.
--
Jim in NC

"Lew Hodgett" wrote

Today, 200A panels with 20A circuits are the norm along along with the
fact the bedroom has a good chance of being converted to a home office
with it added power needs sometime during it's life cycle..

Today, a 15A circuit ranks right up there with the buggy whip as meeting
current needs.

For a typical 2,000 sq ft house, the cost differential between 12AWG and
14AWG wire is less than $700 at retail, IOW, well under 1% of the building
cost.

If you want to seriously reduce building cost, you need to look else
where.

I'll leave you 20 ampers to your ways. We will have to agree to disagree.
I see no need for 20 amps in most of the house, and see no reason to spend
more (waste more) on something without a need. Live down South for a while,
and you will see that there is no need for 5 extra amps, either.
--
Jim in NC

I thought your argument against 20A/12AWG was cost.

Nope.


My argument is that there is no need for 20 amps in most of the house, in
the region that I live.
--
Jim in NC

Best idea is to wire house circuits with #10 AWG. circuits to the bedrooms.
This way you can expand the number of appliances you plug into it with the
30A breaker. The arc fault breakers required will be in stock in about 20
years.

What a stupid idea but... it worked for the the troll value.



"Morgans" wrote in message
...

My argument is that there is no need for 20 amps in most of the house, in
the region that I live.
--
Jim in NC

"Morgans" wrote:

SW of Toledo about 30 miles.

Lima?

Lew

On 9/2/2010 10:31 PM, Morgans wrote:
"Lew wrote

Today, 200A panels with 20A circuits are the norm along along with the
fact the bedroom has a good chance of being converted to a home office
with it added power needs sometime during it's life cycle..

Today, a 15A circuit ranks right up there with the buggy whip as meeting
current needs.

For a typical 2,000 sq ft house, the cost differential between 12AWG and
14AWG wire is less than $700 at retail, IOW, well under 1% of the building
cost.

If you want to seriously reduce building cost, you need to look else
where.

I'll leave you 20 ampers to your ways. We will have to agree to disagree.
I see no need for 20 amps in most of the house, and see no reason to spend
more (waste more) on something without a need. Live down South for a while,
and you will see that there is no need for 5 extra amps, either.

I grew up "down south". There's nothing about "down south" that makes
one need less current. Between air conditioning in the summer and
portable heaters in the winter to make up for the godawful lack of
insulation, there's _more_ need for current "down south".

On Thu, 2 Sep 2010 22:38:03 -0400, "Morgans" wrote:

I thought your argument against 20A/12AWG was cost.

Nope.

Ok, I thought you were on that side.

My argument is that there is no need for 20 amps in most of the house, in
the region that I live.

Certainly there is. You may not have reason but that doesn't mean there isn't
one. You've been given many.

On Thu, 02 Sep 2010 23:52:06 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

On 9/2/2010 10:31 PM, Morgans wrote:
"Lew wrote

Today, 200A panels with 20A circuits are the norm along along with the
fact the bedroom has a good chance of being converted to a home office
with it added power needs sometime during it's life cycle..

Today, a 15A circuit ranks right up there with the buggy whip as meeting
current needs.

For a typical 2,000 sq ft house, the cost differential between 12AWG and
14AWG wire is less than $700 at retail, IOW, well under 1% of the building
cost.

If you want to seriously reduce building cost, you need to look else
where.

I'll leave you 20 ampers to your ways. We will have to agree to disagree.
I see no need for 20 amps in most of the house, and see no reason to spend
more (waste more) on something without a need. Live down South for a while,
and you will see that there is no need for 5 extra amps, either.

I grew up "down south". There's nothing about "down south" that makes
one need less current. Between air conditioning in the summer and
portable heaters in the winter to make up for the godawful lack of
insulation, there's _more_ need for current "down south".

I live "down South" now. My laser printer didn't use any more current "up
North", either. Neither did my power tools.

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
...

"Morgans" wrote:

SW of Toledo about 30 miles.

Lima?

Lew




Napoleon

"Lobby Dosser" wrote:

Napoleon
------------------
Campbell's soup country.

Lew

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
...

"Lobby Dosser" wrote:

Napoleon
------------------
Campbell's soup country.

Lew




mmm mm good ...

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
...

"Morgans" wrote:

SW of Toledo about 30 miles.

Lima?

Whitehouse

"Lobby Dosser" wrote in message
...
"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
...

"Morgans" wrote:

SW of Toledo about 30 miles.

Lima?

Lew




Napoleon

gettong warm!

Whitehouse.
--
Jim in NC

"Morgans" writes:

"Lew Hodgett" wrote

Today, 200A panels with 20A circuits are the norm along along with the
fact the bedroom has a good chance of being converted to a home office
with it added power needs sometime during it's life cycle..

Today, a 15A circuit ranks right up there with the buggy whip as meeting
current needs.

For a typical 2,000 sq ft house, the cost differential between 12AWG and
14AWG wire is less than $700 at retail, IOW, well under 1% of the building
cost.

If you want to seriously reduce building cost, you need to look else
where.

I'll leave you 20 ampers to your ways. We will have to agree to disagree.
I see no need for 20 amps in most of the house, and see no reason to spend
more (waste more) on something without a need.

This is often referred to as "proof by lack of imagination".

Live down South for a while,
and you will see that there is no need for 5 extra amps, either.

An iron pulls 10A at 115. That doesn't leave much for the blow dryer or
space heater that might be used on the same bedroom circuit. I've seen
AV receivers that pull 12A under load, add an ampere or two for the TV, and
one more for the STB, and you've exceeded the safe rating of the receptacle. Add
an electric blanket or waterbed heater and you've blown the circuit. Then
add a window AC unit, or plug in the rug steamer...


scott

Scott Lurndal wrote:


An iron pulls 10A at 115. That doesn't leave much for the blow dryer
or
space heater that might be used on the same bedroom circuit. I've
seen
AV receivers that pull 12A under load, add an ampere or two for the
TV, and
one more for the STB, and you've exceeded the safe rating of the
receptacle.

Only if you're plugging everything into the same receptacle.


Add an electric blanket or waterbed heater and you've
blown the circuit. Then
add a window AC unit, or plug in the rug steamer...


Though to be fair - are you really going to be running all of those at the
same time?

--

-Mike-

"Morgans" wrote in message
...

"Lobby Dosser" wrote in message
...
"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
...

"Morgans" wrote:

SW of Toledo about 30 miles.

Lima?

Lew




Napoleon

gettong warm!

Whitehouse.
--
Jim in NC


Dad worked for Toledo Edison and sometimes did field inventory in the
summer. He'd pay me to ride along and take the notes for him. We covered all
of NW Ohio.

--
National Socialism showed what can happen when very ordinary people get
control of a state and the merely opportunistic are regarded as
intellectuals.

Anthony Burgess

So wire it with #8AWG so you only need to run one circuit for the whole
house.

You need a new electrician. The one that wired all your heavy loads on one
circuit needs to become a garbage man. Lousy imagination for circuit layout.
I hope you don't drop that iron in your bathtub plugged in.



"Scott Lurndal" wrote in message
...
An iron pulls 10A at 115. That doesn't leave much for the blow dryer or
space heater that might be used on the same bedroom circuit. I've seen
AV receivers that pull 12A under load, add an ampere or two for the TV, and
one more for the STB, and you've exceeded the safe rating of the receptacle.
Add
an electric blanket or waterbed heater and you've blown the circuit. Then
add a window AC unit, or plug in the rug steamer...


scott


"Morgans" writes:

"Lew Hodgett" wrote

Today, 200A panels with 20A circuits are the norm along along with the
fact the bedroom has a good chance of being converted to a home office
with it added power needs sometime during it's life cycle..

Today, a 15A circuit ranks right up there with the buggy whip as meeting
current needs.

For a typical 2,000 sq ft house, the cost differential between 12AWG and
14AWG wire is less than $700 at retail, IOW, well under 1% of the
building
cost.

If you want to seriously reduce building cost, you need to look else
where.

I'll leave you 20 ampers to your ways. We will have to agree to disagree.
I see no need for 20 amps in most of the house, and see no reason to spend
more (waste more) on something without a need.

This is often referred to as "proof by lack of imagination".

Live down South for a while,
and you will see that there is no need for 5 extra amps, either.

"Doug Miller" wrote

Remember that you're talking with a guy who claims he can see framing
nails in
the air at a range of five hundred meters.

Then consider the extent to which you think it's reasonable to believe his
other claims, such as "34 years of inspecting wiring".

It only took about a day to realize what this character is all about (not
you, Doug) and zap all of his posts before I ever even see them.

Consider the source, and take it for what it is worth. In this case,
absolutely nothing.
--
Jim in NC

"Scott Lurndal" wrote

An iron pulls 10A at 115. That doesn't leave much for the blow dryer or
space heater that might be used on the same bedroom circuit. I've seen
AV receivers that pull 12A under load, add an ampere or two for the TV,
and
one more for the STB, and you've exceeded the safe rating of the
receptacle. Add
an electric blanket or waterbed heater and you've blown the circuit. Then
add a window AC unit, or plug in the rug steamer...

Good Lord, man! Put all that crap on at the same time, and TWO 20 amp
circuits couldn't pull it without blowing.

You run rug steamers, while the electric blanket is running? Really? More
comments not added about ridiculous possibilities of using multiple stuff
all at one time.

I couldn't afford to run all of the crap you have listed.

We use blow dryers in the bathroom. Different circuit than the bedroom.
Most use an iron in the utility room, also.

I stand by my observation that I have never blown a breaker in this house
with only 15 amp bedroom circuits in the 22 years I have lived here, with my
wife and two kids. (now moved out) I would be considered an electrical and
electronic junkie, by those who know me. I run plenty of stuff at the same
time. A more likely observation by me would be that we should be wiring
bedrooms with double boxes, so we can have more space to plug stuff in.
That is more of a problem than using 15 amps for bedrooms and living rooms
have ever been.

I have to ask. If you have never tried to live in a house with 15 amp
circuits (since they are not allowed to be used under your codes) how do you
know that 15 amps is not enough? You couldn't. You have never tried that.

Oh, and down South, we have Central Air. No window AC units are needed,
except for perhaps the very poor or very old. Certainly not in any new
construction that these people could never afford.
--
Jim in NC

On 9/3/2010 11:03 PM, Morgans wrote:
"Scott wrote

An iron pulls 10A at 115. That doesn't leave much for the blow dryer or
space heater that might be used on the same bedroom circuit. I've seen
AV receivers that pull 12A under load, add an ampere or two for the TV,
and
one more for the STB, and you've exceeded the safe rating of the
receptacle. Add
an electric blanket or waterbed heater and you've blown the circuit. Then
add a window AC unit, or plug in the rug steamer...

Good Lord, man! Put all that crap on at the same time, and TWO 20 amp
circuits couldn't pull it without blowing.

You run rug steamers, while the electric blanket is running? Really? More
comments not added about ridiculous possibilities of using multiple stuff
all at one time.

I couldn't afford to run all of the crap you have listed.

We use blow dryers in the bathroom. Different circuit than the bedroom.
Most use an iron in the utility room, also.

I stand by my observation that I have never blown a breaker in this house
with only 15 amp bedroom circuits in the 22 years I have lived here, with my
wife and two kids. (now moved out) I would be considered an electrical and
electronic junkie, by those who know me. I run plenty of stuff at the same
time. A more likely observation by me would be that we should be wiring
bedrooms with double boxes, so we can have more space to plug stuff in.
That is more of a problem than using 15 amps for bedrooms and living rooms
have ever been.

I have to ask. If you have never tried to live in a house with 15 amp
circuits (since they are not allowed to be used under your codes) how do you
know that 15 amps is not enough? You couldn't. You have never tried that.

Oh, and down South, we have Central Air. No window AC units are needed,
except for perhaps the very poor or very old. Certainly not in any new
construction that these people could never afford.

New construction yes, older houses, not so much.