Morgans wrote:
"Mike Marlow" wrote

Cannot understand why you would say that. Odds are it is 12 ga.

Why? Code only calls for 15 amp, 14 ga. in bedrooms.

If someone used 12, they were just being over-zealous.

Because the overwhelming norm in the areas where I've wired is a 12ga/20A
circuit for all outlets. Over zealous? Perhaps, but with the increased
loads people put on branch circuits these days the extra capacity is not a
bad thing. For me - I wire only with 12ga (no 14ga), simply because it's
most likely that the homeowner will at some point tap into a branch
(generally in the worst possible way...), for some need down the road.
Extra capacity has proven itself to be worth the effort.

I can't tell you how many times I've pulled new wire for living rooms,
dining rooms and bedrooms because the 15A circuit was not sufficient for
fish tanks, and the myriad of electrical/electronic devices common to living
today. You find the 14ga more prevelent in the manufactured homes where
shaving every nickle is the prime consideration, and it does not take a
horribly unusual lifestyle to overwhelm the circuit. Sure - could have
split the circuit and run a new 15A home run and served the purpose, but I
have simplified my life by not even using the stuff.

For those that bitch about working with 12ga, I just never understood that.
It's not hard to work with. Yeah, 14ga is easier, but so is just staying in
bed in the morning.

--

-Mike-

Swingman wrote:
On 8/28/2010 7:43 AM, Morgans wrote:
Standardization.

So what is standard about using heavier wire than is called for? 15
amp and 14 ga. is what is standard. 20 amp feeds are only required
in a few areas of a house. They are what is not standard.

Not necessarily, and certainly not "standard" where I build ... 12ga
is the minimum allowed in residential construction around these parts
and you rarely see a 15A branch circuit, even for lighting in the most
inexpensively built home. AAMOF, I can't recall the last time I saw a
15A c'bkr in a 200A service panel.

So no, 14ga/15A is pretty much a thing of the past as "standard" IME.

Echo that. 14ga is by no means standard in the Northeast these days. You
can still find 15A lighting circuits, but that's about it. Even lighting is
commonly fed by a 20A circuit these days. 14ga would certainly not be
called the standard.

--

-Mike-

"Morgans" writes:

"Mike Marlow" wrote

Cannot understand why you would say that. Odds are it is 12 ga.

Why? Code only calls for 15 amp, 14 ga. in bedrooms.


You are mistaken. The code requires a certain density of
receptacles in a bedroom. The ampacity of the branch circuit is
calculated based on the number of receptacles on a branch circuit and some
very conservatively (err on the side of safety) estimated expected loads.

The gauge of the branch circuit wiring is based on the rating of the overcurrent
protection device with the required branch circuit ampacity. An
overcurrent protection device rated at 20 amperes, will require a mininum
of AWG 12 wire (possibly AWG 10 depending on the distance between the
overcurrent protection device and the set of protected devices to avoid excessive
voltage drop).

The typical residential duplex NEMA 5-15R receptacle is rated to support two devices
which combined, must not consume more than 1.8KW. These receptacles
will accomodate only NEMA 5-15P plugs. NEMA 5-20R duplex receptacles
are available that will accomodate both 5-15P and 5-12P plug, but are very
uncommon in residential work.

Note again, the branch circuit wiring is always sized to the overcurrent
protection device, not the branch device, so a 20A breaker protecting four
or five NEMA-15R duplex receptacles would require miniumum AWG12 wiring
throughout the branch circuit.

scott

On Sat, 28 Aug 2010 09:54:32 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

Swingman wrote:
On 8/28/2010 7:43 AM, Morgans wrote:
Standardization.

So what is standard about using heavier wire than is called for? 15
amp and 14 ga. is what is standard. 20 amp feeds are only required
in a few areas of a house. They are what is not standard.

Not necessarily, and certainly not "standard" where I build ... 12ga
is the minimum allowed in residential construction around these parts
and you rarely see a 15A branch circuit, even for lighting in the most
inexpensively built home. AAMOF, I can't recall the last time I saw a
15A c'bkr in a 200A service panel.

So no, 14ga/15A is pretty much a thing of the past as "standard" IME.

Echo that. 14ga is by no means standard in the Northeast these days. You
can still find 15A lighting circuits, but that's about it. Even lighting is
commonly fed by a 20A circuit these days. 14ga would certainly not be
called the standard.

It was code in NY, when I did some home wiring, um, almost 30 years ago.
15A/14AWG was allowed for lighting circuits but not outlets. Here in the
South, apparently they haven't gotten the word. This house, two years old,
has several 15A circuits. :-(

On Sat, 28 Aug 2010 08:49:30 -0400, "Morgans"
wrote:


wrote

Like all outlets, even those with contacts rated for 15A, GFCIs are rated
for
20A feed-through so can be put on 20A circuits without problems.

Look again. Not all outlets are rated for 20 amps.

You're *wrong*. The outlets rated for 15A are rated for 20A feed-through.
Their contacts may be rated for 15A (all vertical-contact-only outlets are
15A), but they will be 20A feed-through so they *can* be used on a 20A
circuit.

On Sat, 28 Aug 2010 13:18:21 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article , "Morgans" wrote:

"Mike Marlow" wrote

Good point - thanks for the correction on that Bill. So - it's just a
lesson to stick in your arsenal of information - every electrical
connection needs some sort of clamp for strain relief. From now on it's
almost a sure bet you will notice such things in existing wiring and it's
not likely you'll make this same mistake again.

Also, he should realize that a staple holding the romex to the stud is
required within 6 inches of the box - for strain relief.

No, it's not.

12"?

zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 28 Aug 2010 09:54:32 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

Swingman wrote:
On 8/28/2010 7:43 AM, Morgans wrote:
Standardization.

So what is standard about using heavier wire than is called for? 15
amp and 14 ga. is what is standard. 20 amp feeds are only required
in a few areas of a house. They are what is not standard.

Not necessarily, and certainly not "standard" where I build ... 12ga
is the minimum allowed in residential construction around these parts
and you rarely see a 15A branch circuit, even for lighting in the most
inexpensively built home. AAMOF, I can't recall the last time I saw a
15A c'bkr in a 200A service panel.

There's not a single 15A c'bkr in my 200A service panel. But it appears
I need to put one in for my garbage disposal since it has a 14 gauge
wire leading to it from a duplex receptacle. BTW, the garbage disposal
is 8.1 Amps, so running it with a toaster will probably trip a 15A
breaker... I don't think this will become serious issue.

Bill

On 8/28/2010 12:40 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 28 Aug 2010 13:18:21 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In , wrote:

"Mike wrote

Good point - thanks for the correction on that Bill. So - it's just a
lesson to stick in your arsenal of information - every electrical
connection needs some sort of clamp for strain relief. From now on it's
almost a sure bet you will notice such things in existing wiring and it's
not likely you'll make this same mistake again.

Also, he should realize that a staple holding the romex to the stud is
required within 6 inches of the box - for strain relief.

No, it's not.

12"?

Code here is within 8" ...

Your local code may vary, but

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Sat, 28 Aug 2010 15:30:55 -0400, Bill wrote:

wrote:
On Sat, 28 Aug 2010 09:54:32 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

Swingman wrote:
On 8/28/2010 7:43 AM, Morgans wrote:
Standardization.

So what is standard about using heavier wire than is called for? 15
amp and 14 ga. is what is standard. 20 amp feeds are only required
in a few areas of a house. They are what is not standard.

Not necessarily, and certainly not "standard" where I build ... 12ga
is the minimum allowed in residential construction around these parts
and you rarely see a 15A branch circuit, even for lighting in the most
inexpensively built home. AAMOF, I can't recall the last time I saw a
15A c'bkr in a 200A service panel.

There's not a single 15A c'bkr in my 200A service panel. But it appears
I need to put one in for my garbage disposal since it has a 14 gauge
wire leading to it from a duplex receptacle. BTW, the garbage disposal
is 8.1 Amps, so running it with a toaster will probably trip a 15A
breaker... I don't think this will become serious issue.

No, as long as there isn't another load on that circuit it shouldn't be a big
deal. Swap the breakers and you're good.

Is the receptacle wired with 12AWG? Was the disposer an addition or is the
house wired with 14AWG? It's probably worth a look.

"Swingman" wrote in message
...
On 8/28/2010 7:43 AM, Morgans wrote:
Standardization.

So what is standard about using heavier wire than is called for? 15 amp
and 14 ga. is what is standard. 20 amp feeds are only required in a few
areas of a house. They are what is not standard.

Not necessarily, and certainly not "standard" where I build ... 12ga is
the minimum allowed in residential construction around these parts and you
rarely see a 15A branch circuit, even for lighting in the most
inexpensively built home. AAMOF, I can't recall the last time I saw a 15A
c'bkr in a 200A service panel.

So no, 14ga/15A is pretty much a thing of the past as "standard" IME.

What "parts" are you around that does not allow 14 ga. 15 amp circuits? What
country are you in?

If it is in the US, does your area have a different code than the N.E.C. ?

That stands for national electrical code for those that do not know.

Don't make me pull out a code book and quote it for you.
--
Jim in NC

On 8/29/2010 2:32 AM, Morgans wrote:
wrote in message
...
On 8/28/2010 7:43 AM, Morgans wrote:
Standardization.

So what is standard about using heavier wire than is called for? 15 amp
and 14 ga. is what is standard. 20 amp feeds are only required in a few
areas of a house. They are what is not standard.

Not necessarily, and certainly not "standard" where I build ... 12ga is
the minimum allowed in residential construction around these parts and you
rarely see a 15A branch circuit, even for lighting in the most
inexpensively built home. AAMOF, I can't recall the last time I saw a 15A
c'bkr in a 200A service panel.

So no, 14ga/15A is pretty much a thing of the past as "standard" IME.

What "parts" are you around that does not allow 14 ga. 15 amp circuits? What
country are you in?

If it is in the US, does your area have a different code than the N.E.C. ?

That stands for national electrical code for those that do not know.

Don't make me pull out a code book and quote it for you.

There is "code" and there is "best practice". Quite frankly if you are
the sort of contractor who does everything to barely pass inspection I
don't want you to work for me.

On 8/29/2010 1:32 AM, Morgans wrote:

What "parts" are you around that does not allow 14 ga. 15 amp circuits? What
country are you in?

And _you_ added the "... 15 amp circuits?" why?

That addition on your part won't give you the wiggle room to crawfish on
your contention that "14 AWG is standard", sic.

http://www.westu.org/upload/images/L...2011-11-09.pdf

Sec. 26-35

If it is in the US, does your area have a different code than the N.E.C. ?

That Google attained knowledge blowing your skirt up and showing your ass?

Local jurisdictions _routinely_ amend/except portions of the NEC, IBC,
and IRC for their own use, as above.

That stands for national electrical code for those that do not know.
Don't make me pull out a code book and quote it for you.

Yes, Please do ...

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Aug 29, 11:26*am, Swingman wrote:
On 8/29/2010 1:32 AM, Morgans wrote:

What "parts" are you around that does not allow 14 ga. 15 amp circuits? What
country are you in?

And _you_ added the "... 15 amp circuits?" why?

That addition on your part won't give you the wiggle room to crawfish on
your contention that "14 AWG is standard", sic.

http://www.westu.org/upload/images/L...0for%20the%202...

Sec. 26-35



If it is in the US, does your area have a different code than the N.E.C.. ?

That Google attained knowledge blowing your skirt up and showing your ass?

For****sakes, Karl, I was drinking coffee.....

On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 02:32:41 -0400, "Morgans"
wrote:


"Swingman" wrote in message
m...
On 8/28/2010 7:43 AM, Morgans wrote:
Standardization.

So what is standard about using heavier wire than is called for? 15 amp
and 14 ga. is what is standard. 20 amp feeds are only required in a few
areas of a house. They are what is not standard.

Not necessarily, and certainly not "standard" where I build ... 12ga is
the minimum allowed in residential construction around these parts and you
rarely see a 15A branch circuit, even for lighting in the most
inexpensively built home. AAMOF, I can't recall the last time I saw a 15A
c'bkr in a 200A service panel.

So no, 14ga/15A is pretty much a thing of the past as "standard" IME.

What "parts" are you around that does not allow 14 ga. 15 amp circuits? What
country are you in?

NY doesn't allow it.

If it is in the US, does your area have a different code than the N.E.C. ?

Many, if not most, do.

That stands for national electrical code for those that do not know.

You do know that "national" "US law". It's a suggestion, nothing more.

Don't make me pull out a code book and quote it for you.

Doesn't matter what your book says. It matters what the code enforcement
people in your jurisdiction say.

Bill writes:
wrote:
On Sat, 28 Aug 2010 09:54:32 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

Swingman wrote:
On 8/28/2010 7:43 AM, Morgans wrote:
Standardization.

So what is standard about using heavier wire than is called for? 15
amp and 14 ga. is what is standard. 20 amp feeds are only required
in a few areas of a house. They are what is not standard.

Not necessarily, and certainly not "standard" where I build ... 12ga
is the minimum allowed in residential construction around these parts
and you rarely see a 15A branch circuit, even for lighting in the most
inexpensively built home. AAMOF, I can't recall the last time I saw a
15A c'bkr in a 200A service panel.

There's not a single 15A c'bkr in my 200A service panel. But it appears
I need to put one in for my garbage disposal since it has a 14 gauge
wire leading to it from a duplex receptacle.

If by "leading to it from a duplex receptacle", you're referring to the
disposal cord with a molded NEMA 5-15P plug, it is ok for that to be AWG14;
the disposer has a circuit breaker/thermal disconnect that will protect
the wiring from the outlet to the disposal.

scott

On 29 Aug 2010 16:24:26 GMT, (Scott Lurndal) wrote:

Bill writes:
wrote:
On Sat, 28 Aug 2010 09:54:32 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

Swingman wrote:
On 8/28/2010 7:43 AM, Morgans wrote:
Standardization.

So what is standard about using heavier wire than is called for? 15
amp and 14 ga. is what is standard. 20 amp feeds are only required
in a few areas of a house. They are what is not standard.

Not necessarily, and certainly not "standard" where I build ... 12ga
is the minimum allowed in residential construction around these parts
and you rarely see a 15A branch circuit, even for lighting in the most
inexpensively built home. AAMOF, I can't recall the last time I saw a
15A c'bkr in a 200A service panel.

There's not a single 15A c'bkr in my 200A service panel. But it appears
I need to put one in for my garbage disposal since it has a 14 gauge
wire leading to it from a duplex receptacle.

If by "leading to it from a duplex receptacle", you're referring to the
disposal cord with a molded NEMA 5-15P plug, it is ok for that to be AWG14;
the disposer has a circuit breaker/thermal disconnect that will protect
the wiring from the outlet to the disposal.

If it's a line cord, as opposed to being NM wired directly into the circuit,
yes, you are correct (it likely doesn't even need to be 14AWG). I read it as
being directly (permanently) wired in with NM.

zzzzzzzzzz wrote:

If by "leading to it from a duplex receptacle", you're referring to the
disposal cord with a molded NEMA 5-15P plug, it is ok for that to be AWG14;
the disposer has a circuit breaker/thermal disconnect that will protect
the wiring from the outlet to the disposal.

If it's a line cord, as opposed to being NM wired directly into the circuit,
yes, you are correct (it likely doesn't even need to be 14AWG). I read it as
being directly (permanently) wired in with NM.

Yes, it's directly wired with NM.

Bill

In article , Swingman wrote:
On 8/28/2010 12:40 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 28 Aug 2010 13:18:21 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In ,
wrote:

"Mike wrote

Good point - thanks for the correction on that Bill. So - it's just a
lesson to stick in your arsenal of information - every electrical
connection needs some sort of clamp for strain relief. From now on it's
almost a sure bet you will notice such things in existing wiring and it's
not likely you'll make this same mistake again.

Also, he should realize that a staple holding the romex to the stud is
required within 6 inches of the box - for strain relief.

No, it's not.

12"?

Code here is within 8" ...

The 8" rule in the NEC states that when using a non-metallic box, NM cable is
not required to be secured to the *box* if it's secured to framing within 8"
of the box. Nowhere that I'm aware of does the NEC require NM cable to be
secured to framing within any particular distance of a box as a general rule;
in fact, the Code explicitly permits NM to be fished inside walls in existing
construction without being supported by or secured to the framing _at all_; of
course, if you do that, you're required to secure it to the box.

In article , wrote:

You are mistaken. The code requires a certain density of
receptacles in a bedroom. The ampacity of the branch circuit is
calculated based on the number of receptacles on a branch circuit

Please cite the article of the Code which contains that provision.

On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 15:24:30 -0400, Bill wrote:

wrote:

If by "leading to it from a duplex receptacle", you're referring to the
disposal cord with a molded NEMA 5-15P plug, it is ok for that to be AWG14;
the disposer has a circuit breaker/thermal disconnect that will protect
the wiring from the outlet to the disposal.

If it's a line cord, as opposed to being NM wired directly into the circuit,
yes, you are correct (it likely doesn't even need to be 14AWG). I read it as
being directly (permanently) wired in with NM.

Yes, it's directly wired with NM.

Then replace the breaker. If there is nothing else on that circuit, no harm,
no foul.

On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 19:36:21 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article , Swingman wrote:
On 8/28/2010 12:40 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 28 Aug 2010 13:18:21 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In ,
wrote:

"Mike wrote

Good point - thanks for the correction on that Bill. So - it's just a
lesson to stick in your arsenal of information - every electrical
connection needs some sort of clamp for strain relief. From now on it's
almost a sure bet you will notice such things in existing wiring and it's
not likely you'll make this same mistake again.

Also, he should realize that a staple holding the romex to the stud is
required within 6 inches of the box - for strain relief.

No, it's not.

12"?

Code here is within 8" ...

The 8" rule in the NEC states that when using a non-metallic box, NM cable is
not required to be secured to the *box* if it's secured to framing within 8"
of the box. Nowhere that I'm aware of does the NEC require NM cable to be
secured to framing within any particular distance of a box as a general rule;
in fact, the Code explicitly permits NM to be fished inside walls in existing
construction without being supported by or secured to the framing _at all_; of
course, if you do that, you're required to secure it to the box.

I thought NM had to be secured to the framing on new wiring. Certainly that's
not possible with old wiring.

On 8/29/2010 2:36 PM, Doug Miller wrote:

The 8" rule in the NEC states that when using a non-metallic box, NM cable is
not required to be secured to the *box* if it's secured to framing within 8"
of the box. Nowhere that I'm aware of does the NEC require NM cable to be
secured to framing within any particular distance of a box as a general rule;

Our 2008 NEC local interpretation specifically dictates/states within 8"
of any "unclamped" box.

For all practical purposes hereabouts that is basically a "general rule"
since anything other than an "unclamped" box in new construction is
rare, service/sub panels excepted.

in fact, the Code explicitly permits NM to be fished inside walls in
existing construction without being supported by or secured to the
framing _at all_; of course, if you do that, you're required to
secure it to the box.

Here also ... except that local requirement is that NM must be secured
every 4 1/2' before it penetrates the sill plate and enters an existing
wall.

YMMV ...

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On 8/29/2010 10:57 AM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:

Doesn't matter what your book says. It matters what the code enforcement
people in your jurisdiction say.

Exactly ... like anything written, the NEC is subject to interpretation
that rivals "that depends upon the what the meaning of "is" is".

I really don't care what any iteration of the NEC says, the inspector
currently onsite is the FINAL arbiter of acceptable electrical practices
.... until the next one shows up.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

In article , " wrote:
On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 19:36:21 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article , Swingman
wrote:
On 8/28/2010 12:40 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 28 Aug 2010 13:18:21 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In ,
wrote:

"Mike wrote

Good point - thanks for the correction on that Bill. So - it's just a
lesson to stick in your arsenal of information - every electrical
connection needs some sort of clamp for strain relief. From now on it's
almost a sure bet you will notice such things in existing wiring and
it's
not likely you'll make this same mistake again.

Also, he should realize that a staple holding the romex to the stud is
required within 6 inches of the box - for strain relief.

No, it's not.

12"?

Code here is within 8" ...

The 8" rule in the NEC states that when using a non-metallic box, NM cable is
not required to be secured to the *box* if it's secured to framing within 8"
of the box. Nowhere that I'm aware of does the NEC require NM cable to be
secured to framing within any particular distance of a box as a general rule;
in fact, the Code explicitly permits NM to be fished inside walls in existing
construction without being supported by or secured to the framing _at all_; of

course, if you do that, you're required to secure it to the box.

I thought NM had to be secured to the framing on new wiring. Certainly that's
not possible with old wiring.

It does. But there's not a general requirement -- not one that I'm aware of,
anyway -- to secure it within any particular distance of the box, provided
that it's secured to the box.

In article , Swingman wrote:
On 8/29/2010 2:36 PM, Doug Miller wrote:

The 8" rule in the NEC states that when using a non-metallic box, NM cable is
not required to be secured to the *box* if it's secured to framing within 8"
of the box. Nowhere that I'm aware of does the NEC require NM cable to be
secured to framing within any particular distance of a box as a general rule;

Our 2008 NEC local interpretation specifically dictates/states within 8"
of any "unclamped" box.

And that is the final word; per the NEC, the Code means what the AHJ
(authority having jurisdiction) says it means.

For all practical purposes hereabouts that is basically a "general rule"
since anything other than an "unclamped" box in new construction is
rare, service/sub panels excepted.

in fact, the Code explicitly permits NM to be fished inside walls in
existing construction without being supported by or secured to the
framing _at all_; of course, if you do that, you're required to
secure it to the box.

Here also ... except that local requirement is that NM must be secured
every 4 1/2' before it penetrates the sill plate and enters an existing
wall.

That's not merely a local requirement. That is explicit in the NEC.

On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 23:19:17 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article , " wrote:
On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 19:36:21 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article , Swingman
wrote:
On 8/28/2010 12:40 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 28 Aug 2010 13:18:21 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In ,
wrote:

"Mike wrote

Good point - thanks for the correction on that Bill. So - it's just a
lesson to stick in your arsenal of information - every electrical
connection needs some sort of clamp for strain relief. From now on it's
almost a sure bet you will notice such things in existing wiring and
it's
not likely you'll make this same mistake again.

Also, he should realize that a staple holding the romex to the stud is
required within 6 inches of the box - for strain relief.

No, it's not.

12"?

Code here is within 8" ...

The 8" rule in the NEC states that when using a non-metallic box, NM cable is
not required to be secured to the *box* if it's secured to framing within 8"
of the box. Nowhere that I'm aware of does the NEC require NM cable to be
secured to framing within any particular distance of a box as a general rule;
in fact, the Code explicitly permits NM to be fished inside walls in existing
construction without being supported by or secured to the framing _at all_; of

course, if you do that, you're required to secure it to the box.

I thought NM had to be secured to the framing on new wiring. Certainly that's
not possible with old wiring.

It does. But there's not a general requirement -- not one that I'm aware of,
anyway -- to secure it within any particular distance of the box, provided
that it's secured to the box.

Certainly the 4-1/2' rule applies. Your last four lines implied that it need
not be secured at all. That's why I answered as I did.

In article , " wrote:
On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 23:19:17 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article ,
" wrote:
On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 19:36:21 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article , Swingman
wrote:
On 8/28/2010 12:40 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 28 Aug 2010 13:18:21 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In ,
wrote:

"Mike wrote

Good point - thanks for the correction on that Bill. So - it's just a
lesson to stick in your arsenal of information - every electrical
connection needs some sort of clamp for strain relief. From now on
it's
almost a sure bet you will notice such things in existing wiring and
it's
not likely you'll make this same mistake again.

Also, he should realize that a staple holding the romex to the stud is
required within 6 inches of the box - for strain relief.

No, it's not.

12"?

Code here is within 8" ...

The 8" rule in the NEC states that when using a non-metallic box, NM cable
is
not required to be secured to the *box* if it's secured to framing within 8"

of the box. Nowhere that I'm aware of does the NEC require NM cable to be
secured to framing within any particular distance of a box as a general
rule;
in fact, the Code explicitly permits NM to be fished inside walls in
existing
construction without being supported by or secured to the framing _at all_;
of

course, if you do that, you're required to secure it to the box.

I thought NM had to be secured to the framing on new wiring. Certainly
that's
not possible with old wiring.

It does. But there's not a general requirement -- not one that I'm aware of,
anyway -- to secure it within any particular distance of the box, provided
that it's secured to the box.

Certainly the 4-1/2' rule applies. Your last four lines implied that it need
not be secured at all. That's why I answered as I did.

Sorry, I didn't mean to leave that implication. Just to clarify: if NM is
installed concealed by fishing it through existing construction, it is not
required to be supported or secured in the concealed, fished portion of the
installation. NM installed exposed whether in old or new construction, or
inside walls during new construction when the walls are open, is required to
be supported and secured.

" wrote in
:

On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 02:32:41 -0400, "Morgans"
wrote:


"Swingman" wrote in message
om...
On 8/28/2010 7:43 AM, Morgans wrote:
Standardization.

So what is standard about using heavier wire than is called for?
15 amp and 14 ga. is what is standard. 20 amp feeds are only
required in a few areas of a house. They are what is not standard.

Not necessarily, and certainly not "standard" where I build ... 12ga
is the minimum allowed in residential construction around these
parts and you rarely see a 15A branch circuit, even for lighting in

What "parts" are you around that does not allow 14 ga. 15 amp
circuits? What country are you in?

NY doesn't allow it.

snip


NY what?

14 ga. 15 amp circuits are allowed in the Buffalo, NY area.


--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

On 30 Aug 2010 01:43:34 GMT, Nova wrote:

" wrote in
:

On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 02:32:41 -0400, "Morgans"
wrote:


"Swingman" wrote in message
news:BLadnU7EPOuMjuTRnZ2dnUVZ_radnZ2d@giganews. com...
On 8/28/2010 7:43 AM, Morgans wrote:
Standardization.

So what is standard about using heavier wire than is called for?
15 amp and 14 ga. is what is standard. 20 amp feeds are only
required in a few areas of a house. They are what is not standard.

Not necessarily, and certainly not "standard" where I build ... 12ga
is the minimum allowed in residential construction around these
parts and you rarely see a 15A branch circuit, even for lighting in

What "parts" are you around that does not allow 14 ga. 15 amp
circuits? What country are you in?

NY doesn't allow it.

snip


NY what?

14 ga. 15 amp circuits are allowed in the Buffalo, NY area.

Not 15A/14AWG to outlets. They were allowed for lighting circuits. This was
in Hyde Park (Dutchess County), twenty years ago.

" wrote in
:

On 30 Aug 2010 01:43:34 GMT, Nova wrote:

" wrote in
m:

On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 02:32:41 -0400, "Morgans"
wrote:


"Swingman" wrote in message
On 8/28/2010 7:43 AM, Morgans wrote:
Standardization.

So what is standard about using heavier wire than is called for?
15 amp and 14 ga. is what is standard. 20 amp feeds are only
required in a few areas of a house. They are what is not
standard.

Not necessarily, and certainly not "standard" where I build ...
12ga is the minimum allowed in residential construction around
these parts and you rarely see a 15A branch circuit, even for
lighting in

What "parts" are you around that does not allow 14 ga. 15 amp
circuits? What country are you in?

NY doesn't allow it.

snip


NY what?

14 ga. 15 amp circuits are allowed in the Buffalo, NY area.

Not 15A/14AWG to outlets. They were allowed for lighting circuits.
This was in Hyde Park (Dutchess County), twenty years ago.


14 ga. 15 amp outlet circuits are allowed in the Buffalo, NY area.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

(Doug Miller) writes:
In article , wrote:

You are mistaken. The code requires a certain density of
receptacles in a bedroom. The ampacity of the branch circuit is
calculated based on the number of receptacles on a branch circuit

Please cite the article of the Code which contains that provision.


The density requirements are described in 210-52 (Dwelling Unit Receptacle Outlets).

The ampacity requirements are enumerated in section 210-23 (Permissable Loads);
while 210-23 doesn't explicitly reference the number of receptacles (other
than limiting a 20A branch circuit to 14 taps), common practice is to
account for the number of devices on a branch circuit when determining
the required ampacity.

scott

In article , wrote:
(Doug Miller) writes:
In article ,
wrote:

You are mistaken. The code requires a certain density of
receptacles in a bedroom. The ampacity of the branch circuit is
calculated based on the number of receptacles on a branch circuit

Please cite the article of the Code which contains that provision.


The density requirements are described in 210-52 (Dwelling Unit Receptacle
Outlets).

Which of course has nothing at all to do with the number of receptacles on a
circuit.

The ampacity requirements are enumerated in section 210-23 (Permissable Loads);
while 210-23 doesn't explicitly reference the number of receptacles (other
than limiting a 20A branch circuit to 14 taps),

It does nothing of the kind. Table 210.24 lists the permissible *conductor
sizes* -- IOW, it says you can use 14ga taps on a 20A circuit. It does *not*
"limit a 20A branch circuit to 14 taps".

common practice is to
account for the number of devices on a branch circuit when determining
the required ampacity.

Never mind "common practice" -- where does the Code place any limits on the
number of receptacles on a circuit, or in any way base the ampacity of that
circuit on the number of receptacles?

Answer: nowhere.

12 Ga wire is just a waste of time and money.

A 20 amp breaker would not be allowed to feed most of the lamp fixtures
anyway, with their #18Ga internal wiring, let alone get the #12 under a
screw head terminal that is not rated for the mechanics of it.

The #14 wire is way over engineered already for the recommended max device
rules etc.. and now people come along and try to use a safety factor on top
of all the safety factors built in?

Usually, following recommendations and minimum requirements are the "best
practice" from a century of engineering design and field experience.

Having said that, many long runs should have #12 used for voltage drop in
ling houses.


"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
On 8/29/2010 2:32 AM, Morgans wrote:
There is "code" and there is "best practice". Quite frankly if you are
the sort of contractor who does everything to barely pass inspection I
don't want you to work for me.

Maybe it's a sal****er corrosive environment there?...LOL


"Nova" wrote in message
.168...

14 ga. 15 amp outlet circuits are allowed in the Buffalo, NY area.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

15 ampere recepticals, or any 15A device, requires a 15A breaker to protect
it in our code.

Why not run 14Ga wire on a 20A breaker then?

Now you plug in a #18 Ga lamp socket and cord wire into a 20A circuit? The
15A circuit was bad enough that they have to tell you not to conceal a lamp
or extension cord so the heat can escape...LOL


"Scott Lurndal" wrote in message
.. .
You are mistaken. The code requires a certain density of
receptacles in a bedroom. The ampacity of the branch circuit is
calculated based on the number of receptacles on a branch circuit and some
very conservatively (err on the side of safety) estimated expected loads.

The gauge of the branch circuit wiring is based on the rating of the
overcurrent
protection device with the required branch circuit ampacity. An
overcurrent protection device rated at 20 amperes, will require a mininum
of AWG 12 wire (possibly AWG 10 depending on the distance between the
overcurrent protection device and the set of protected devices to avoid
excessive
voltage drop).

The typical residential duplex NEMA 5-15R receptacle is rated to support two
devices
which combined, must not consume more than 1.8KW. These receptacles
will accomodate only NEMA 5-15P plugs. NEMA 5-20R duplex receptacles
are available that will accomodate both 5-15P and 5-12P plug, but are very
uncommon in residential work.

Note again, the branch circuit wiring is always sized to the overcurrent
protection device, not the branch device, so a 20A breaker protecting four
or five NEMA-15R duplex receptacles would require miniumum AWG12 wiring
throughout the branch circuit.

scott

On 8/31/2010 1:18 AM, Josepi wrote:
12 Ga wire is just a waste of time and money.

A 20 amp breaker would not be allowed to feed most of the lamp fixtures
anyway, with their #18Ga internal wiring,

If you have visions of becoming an electrician, don't quit your day job.
The "internal wiring" of a UL listed lamp fixture has no bearing on
breaker size. If it did then those fixtures would not be allowed on a
15 amp breaker either. The general rule is that the breaker is to
protect the circuit, not the device served by that circuit.

let alone get the #12 under a
screw head terminal that is not rated for the mechanics of it.

Would you be kind enough to identify a UL listed light fixture currently
on the market that has screw head terminals that will not take #12 wire?

The #14 wire is way over engineered already for the recommended max device
rules etc.. and now people come along and try to use a safety factor on top
of all the safety factors built in?

Yep.

Usually, following recommendations and minimum requirements are the "best
practice" from a century of engineering design and field experience.

Nope. The code is a _minimum_ standard. No inspector is going to fault
an electrician for _exceeding_ code. I wish that code had been exceeded
in my house--they wired it all with 12 gage aluminum, barely meeting
code, which I'm slowly replacing with 12 gage copper.

Having said that, many long runs should have #12 used for voltage drop in
ling houses.

Whatever a "ling house" may be.

"J. wrote in message
...
On 8/29/2010 2:32 AM, Morgans wrote:
There is "code" and there is "best practice". Quite frankly if you are
the sort of contractor who does everything to barely pass inspection I
don't want you to work for me.

On 8/31/2010 1:25 AM, Josepi wrote:
15 ampere recepticals, or any 15A device, requires a 15A breaker to protect
it in our code.

It would help if you stated what specific code you are referencing.

NEC allows 15A receptacles on 20A circuits as long as there are multiple
receptacles. See Table 210.23(B)(3).

If you are constrained by a local code which is not based on NEC then YMMV.

Why not run 14Ga wire on a 20A breaker then?

Because code does not allow it.

Now you plug in a #18 Ga lamp socket and cord wire into a 20A circuit?

Code ends at the receptacle. Whatever is plugged into that receptacle
may be subject to fire codes, construction codes, or other safety codes,
but it is not in general addressed by the National Electrical Code.

The
15A circuit was bad enough that they have to tell you not to conceal a lamp
or extension cord so the heat can escape...LOL

The breaker is not there to protect portable appliances.

"Scott wrote in message
.. .
You are mistaken. The code requires a certain density of
receptacles in a bedroom. The ampacity of the branch circuit is
calculated based on the number of receptacles on a branch circuit and some
very conservatively (err on the side of safety) estimated expected loads.

The gauge of the branch circuit wiring is based on the rating of the
overcurrent
protection device with the required branch circuit ampacity. An
overcurrent protection device rated at 20 amperes, will require a mininum
of AWG 12 wire (possibly AWG 10 depending on the distance between the
overcurrent protection device and the set of protected devices to avoid
excessive
voltage drop).

The typical residential duplex NEMA 5-15R receptacle is rated to support two
devices
which combined, must not consume more than 1.8KW. These receptacles
will accomodate only NEMA 5-15P plugs. NEMA 5-20R duplex receptacles
are available that will accomodate both 5-15P and 5-12P plug, but are very
uncommon in residential work.

Note again, the branch circuit wiring is always sized to the overcurrent
protection device, not the branch device, so a 20A breaker protecting four
or five NEMA-15R duplex receptacles would require miniumum AWG12 wiring
throughout the branch circuit.

scott

On 8/31/2010 1:19 AM, Josepi wrote:
Maybe it's a sal****er corrosive environment there?...LOL

Well, someone failed geography.

wrote in message
.168...

14 ga. 15 amp outlet circuits are allowed in the Buffalo, NY area.

In article , "J. Clarke" wrote:
On 8/31/2010 1:19 AM, Josepi wrote:
Maybe it's a sal****er corrosive environment there?...LOL

Well, someone failed geography.

Please. Just. Stop. Feeding. This. Troll.

I did quit my day job after 34 years of inspecting wiring.... just not
smplified residential stuff....LOL

Using a 20 ampere circuit breaker on a residential circuit wired to devices
that are only rated to be on a 15 ampere circuit is not "exceeding code" but
rather not meeting "minimum code". Ridiculous logic and would get you
laughed out of any electrical crew. Perhaps we should wire all our
residential circuits to the main breaker directly, without sub protection
because it "exceeds the code"? You must have some electrical code there.

What does your electrical code say about connections between an #18Ga wire
with a #12Ga wire?


Yup, I owned a house wire #12AL wire also and it definitely has it's
problems if not done with good techniques. It could return some day with
copper prices soaring lately. I had some "electrician" use the old "push in,
self grabbing" connections with aluminum and a few burned up. One devices
were redesigned with screws that could handle the #12AWG wire things
improved. Hope to avoid that junk in the future in my homes. Quite common on
larger conductors by utilities and higher current applications that make the
connection hassles worth the metal savings.


"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
On 8/31/2010 1:18 AM, Josepi wrote:
12 Ga wire is just a waste of time and money.

A 20 amp breaker would not be allowed to feed most of the lamp fixtures
anyway, with their #18Ga internal wiring,

If you have visions of becoming an electrician, don't quit your day job.
The "internal wiring" of a UL listed lamp fixture has no bearing on
breaker size. If it did then those fixtures would not be allowed on a
15 amp breaker either. The general rule is that the breaker is to
protect the circuit, not the device served by that circuit.

let alone get the #12 under a
screw head terminal that is not rated for the mechanics of it.

Would you be kind enough to identify a UL listed light fixture currently
on the market that has screw head terminals that will not take #12 wire?

The #14 wire is way over engineered already for the recommended max device
rules etc.. and now people come along and try to use a safety factor on
top
of all the safety factors built in?

Yep.

Usually, following recommendations and minimum requirements are the "best
practice" from a century of engineering design and field experience.

Nope. The code is a _minimum_ standard. No inspector is going to fault
an electrician for _exceeding_ code. I wish that code had been exceeded
in my house--they wired it all with 12 gage aluminum, barely meeting
code, which I'm slowly replacing with 12 gage copper.

Having said that, many long runs should have #12 used for voltage drop in
ling houses.

Whatever a "ling house" may be.

"J. wrote in message
...
On 8/29/2010 2:32 AM, Morgans wrote:
There is "code" and there is "best practice". Quite frankly if you are
the sort of contractor who does everything to barely pass inspection I
don't want you to work for me.