What's your favorite online place to buy wood screw assortment packs?

By the way. Are self tapping screw heads any good? Mainly curious.
I'll probably buy some of those drill bits that make room for the
screw head. Sorry, don't know the terminology.

John Doe wrote in news:1u1ii.8614$bP5.2943
@newssvr19.news.prodigy.net:


What's your favorite online place to buy wood screw assortment packs?

I usually buy screws at the hardware store. If I know I'll need a lot,
I'll buy a lot. I rarely buy assortment packs, as I usually don't need
10-1/2" screws, 4-5/8", 20-3/4" screws, etc.

By the way. Are self tapping screw heads any good? Mainly curious.
I'll probably buy some of those drill bits that make room for the
screw head. Sorry, don't know the terminology.


Self-tapping screw heads usually work ok. If you're working anywhere
near the edge of a piece of wood, though, you should predrill for the
screw. With the cost of screw guns (and drills) it's worth buying a
second one to dedicate to drilling. It's much easier to switch between
drills than it is to switch between bits.

The drill bits that make room for the screw head are called
"countersinks" or "countersunk". You can get them alone, or at the end
of a drill bit. (You can even use a drill bit to countersink a screw
head, but it's not always easy to do accurately.)

Puckdropper
--
Wise is the man who attempts to answer his question before asking it.

To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm

Puckdropper wrote:

....

With the cost of screw guns (and drills) it's worth buying a second
one to dedicate to drilling. It's much easier to switch between
drills than it is to switch between bits.

Yup, got a Panasonic 12 V drill and impact driver during that
outrageous deal on Amazon last month.

The impact driver is noisy as expected, and it's a little unusual to
use, but it drove ordinary slotted screws without stripping or
slipping off of the head.

(You can even use a drill bit to countersink a screw head, but it's
not always easy to do accurately.)

With me, it's better than nothing, but tedious and inconsistent.

Enjoyed your writing about countersinks, thanks.







Puckdropper

McFeeleys's - the DIY Dozen. If you have not "converted" to sqaure drive,
do it now.


"John Doe" wrote in message
t...

What's your favorite online place to buy wood screw assortment packs?

By the way. Are self tapping screw heads any good? Mainly curious.
I'll probably buy some of those drill bits that make room for the
screw head. Sorry, don't know the terminology.









--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

On Jul 2, 3:06 am, John Doe wrote:
What's your favorite online place to buy wood screw assortment packs?

By the way. Are self tapping screw heads any good? Mainly curious.
I'll probably buy some of those drill bits that make room for the
screw head. Sorry, don't know the terminology.

A friend of mine used to sell those screw assortment packs in the
classifieds in the back of magazines. He said the markup was
unbelievable.

Probably better to buy screws by the hundred box as you need them.
You can also get huge quantities of screws at tag and garage sales.
Estate tag sales are the best as you're in the guy's basement and
they're looking to clear out everything and the screws _never_ sell.
The people running the tag sale would be thrilled for you to do the
work getting them out of the house for them. The fasteners are often
already in some homemade storage rack to simplify things on your end.

R

RicodJour wrote:
Probably better to buy screws by the hundred box as you need them.
You can also get huge quantities of screws at tag and garage sales.
Estate tag sales are the best as you're in the guy's basement and
they're looking to clear out everything and the screws _never_ sell.
The people running the tag sale would be thrilled for you to do the
work getting them out of the house for them. The fasteners are often
already in some homemade storage rack to simplify things on your end.


That's a terrific idea.

B A R R Y wrote:
RicodJour wrote:
Probably better to buy screws by the hundred box as you need them.
You can also get huge quantities of screws at tag and garage sales.
Estate tag sales are the best as you're in the guy's basement and
they're looking to clear out everything and the screws _never_ sell.
The people running the tag sale would be thrilled for you to do the
work getting them out of the house for them. The fasteners are often
already in some homemade storage rack to simplify things on your end.


That's a terrific idea.

My luck has always been all that's there is the myriad of coffee cans
full of miscellaneous stuff all throwed together--or, the organized set
that sells for more than it would new...

--

I've found the assortment packs from Rockler to be very good quality
screws, and actually to be cheaper than buying the individual 100-
packs.
http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?sku=300&cs=1
These "Square-X" screws will drive with either a phillips (everyone
has one) or a square drive (works much better) bit. This combo pack
is only available online. Rockler are the only tapered head wood
screws I use now - don't bother with wood screws from Home Depot -
they're awful. One time I thought I'd save time by getting screws
there, and I twisted several heads off #10 screws. Waste of time and
money. And I haven't tried them, but McFeeley's wood screws are
supposed to be top of the line. They have combo packs also.

As far as countersinking, I have two suggestions: First, the Dewalt
tapered countersink bits (DW2567, DW2568) are the best ones I've tried
(better than Fuller or off-brands). These are available at Amazon and
my local TrueValue. Sometimes they go on sale at Amazon for about
$6.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...X0DER&v=glance
Second, If you want a separate countersink bit, which is sometimes
handy, I've found this type by Lee Valley to work very well. Easy to
use, cuts cleanly. http://www.leevalley.com/hardware/pa...=3,41306,41328
I just got one of these a couple weeks ago, and it's already earned a
permanent spot within easy reach by my bench. The Weldon brand
version of these countersinks is supposed to be top notch.

Hope this helps,
Andy

"Andy" wrote in message

I've found the assortment packs from Rockler to be very good quality
screws, and actually to be cheaper than buying the individual 100-
packs.
http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?sku=300&cs=1
These "Square-X" screws will drive with either a phillips (everyone
has one) or a square drive (works much better) bit. This combo pack
is only available online. Rockler are the only tapered head wood
screws I use now - don't bother with wood screws from Home Depot -
they're awful. One time I thought I'd save time by getting screws
there, and I twisted several heads off #10 screws. Waste of time and
money. And I haven't tried them, but McFeeley's wood screws are
supposed to be top of the line. They have combo packs also.

Voice of experience: Do NOT to trust Rockler screws for critical work, like
screwing adjacent cabinet face frames together!

Rockler screws are barely a cut above those you buy at the Borg's and, while
OK for many shop tasks, they simply will not perform like a quality screw.

It's pretty simple in this age of corporate greed ... if you need a wood
screw you can rely on, McFeely's is a good way to go.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 6/1/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

John Doe wrote in news:1u1ii.8614$bP5.2943
@newssvr19.news.prodigy.net:


What's your favorite online place to buy wood screw assortment packs?

By the way. Are self tapping screw heads any good? Mainly curious.
I'll probably buy some of those drill bits that make room for the
screw head. Sorry, don't know the terminology.

www.mcfeeleys.com

great products, reasonable prices. Occasional wReck participant.

no affiliation, etc.

Patriarch

Swingman wrote:
....

It's pretty simple in this age of corporate greed ...

I submit "corporate greed" is simply a reflection of the consumer
choosing price over quality in the most part...

--

"dpb" wrote

Swingman wrote:
...

It's pretty simple in this age of corporate greed ...

I submit "corporate greed" is simply a reflection of the consumer choosing
price over quality in the most part...

Yes, you could argue that.

But I submit that quality is often not even available locally and in many
venues. If corporate greed was not a factor, this would not be the case.
However you look at it, a lot of scumbags make decisions that make it harder
for the rest of us.

And I don't want to hear the pure economic model crap either. If mega corps
really gave a damn about us, quality products would be available right along
the low priced consumer crap. You know the *******s are winning when you
can't even buy good fasteners locally.

Voice of experience: Do NOT to trust Rockler screws for critical work, like
screwing adjacent cabinet face frames together!

Rockler screws are barely a cut above those you buy at the Borg's and, while
OK for many shop tasks, they simply will not perform like a quality screw.


Wow - not my experience at all. Were all the ones you used from a
single batch? I've used at least several hundred Rockler wood screws,
bought at various times, different branches and online, so I didn't
just get a "fluke" good batch. I've NEVER had one fail, either while
driving or after assembly. Like I said, in my experience with Borg
screws, at LEAST 25% of them failed as I was driving, and other
batches have been equally unimpressive.
I can't say how Rockler's screws compare to McFeeley's, as I haven't
used McF's, but Rockler's have been 100% reliable for me, at a good
price, and I'm happy with that. I have seen their heads develop
surface rust on shop projects that were stored in damp basement
corners, but they don't claim to be rustproof or for outdoor use. I
haven't had any show rust in storage. If I wanted durable screws that
would be used in damp conditions or outdoor projects, I wouldn't use
Rockler's lube finished screws.
I'm not affiliated with Rockler or anyone else, just sharing my
positive experiences with reasonably-priced stuff.
Andy

dpb wrote:

Swingman wrote:
...

It's pretty simple in this age of corporate greed ...

I submit "corporate greed" is simply a reflection of the consumer
choosing price over quality in the most part...

Yup, lulled by the misconception that his (or her) government wouldn't
allow him to destroy his own society. To me, it's like voting with my
money. Instead of voting for the same old Republican or Democrat, I
use money to vote for either democracy or communism. If we vote for
communism too much, then our government will be able to put the blame
squarely on us, saying "you were free to do whatever you wanted, you
could have chosen democracy but you chose otherwise".

Wake up people.

At the same time, don't believe the "globalism" garbage. Leaders of
the free world have and could have us trade amongst ourselves,
forever. Communist countries cannot compete, we've proved that
already. Globalism is probably just a way for the bigger companies to
beat up on the smaller companies.

Lee Michaels wrote:
"dpb" wrote

Swingman wrote:
...

It's pretty simple in this age of corporate greed ...
I submit "corporate greed" is simply a reflection of the consumer choosing
price over quality in the most part...

Yes, you could argue that.

But I submit that quality is often not even available locally and in many
venues. If corporate greed was not a factor, this would not be the case.
However you look at it, a lot of scumbags make decisions that make it harder
for the rest of us.

And I don't want to hear the pure economic model crap either. If mega corps
really gave a damn about us, quality products would be available right along
the low priced consumer crap. You know the *******s are winning when you
can't even buy good fasteners locally.
....

Supply follows demand whether you wish to hear it or not...insufficient
demand will lead to not carrying a product (or at least not stocking
it--non-moving inventory is expensive).

--

"dpb" wrote in message
Swingman wrote:
...

It's pretty simple in this age of corporate greed ...

I submit "corporate greed" is simply a reflection of the consumer
choosing price over quality in the most part...

You're right. Allow me to rephrase that ... "It's pretty simple in the age
of the dumb ass and corporate greed ... "

Better?

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 6/1/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Andy" wrote in message
Voice of experience: Do NOT to trust Rockler screws for critical work,
like
screwing adjacent cabinet face frames together!

Rockler screws are barely a cut above those you buy at the Borg's and,
while
OK for many shop tasks, they simply will not perform like a quality
screw.


Wow - not my experience at all. Were all the ones you used from a
single batch?

Yeah ... one batch for the last five custom kitchens ... hardly likely.

Re-read the first three words you quoted above.

I can't say how Rockler's screws compare to McFeeley's, as I haven't
used McF's,

The more you get into woodworking the more you realize that, for the most
part, Rockler branded items are mostly chinese/cheap and pretty much suck,
particularly on what can be considered woodworking "supply" items.

You admitted that you haven't tried McFeely's screws, a requirement in order
to make objective judgments. Give them a try and your love affair with
Rockler screws will evaporate, guaranteed.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 6/1/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Swingman wrote:
....

...for the most part, Rockler branded items are mostly chinese...

That's the rub for me -- it's sorta' like the HF deal -- there's no
telling what will get unloaded off the boat the next time. From one
reorder to the next they're likely to have completely changed suppliers
so there's no guarantee that what was satisfactory/good the last time
will be the next...

Leading to the possibility that both accounts are accurate from their
own experience. (Altho I agree McF's is uniformly top-notch).

--

"dpb" wrote in message

Leading to the possibility that both accounts are accurate from their
own experience.

Nahh ... too wishy washy, IMO.

Let me put it more "accurately": When you're building/installing $$,$$$.$$
custom kitchens, you will only attempt to do so with Rockler screws ONCE".

(Well, maybe twice, cuz you thought you got a "bad batch" the first time ...
but you didn't!)

Now, that's "accurate", guaranteed!

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 6/1/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Jul 2, 9:29 am, Andy wrote:

As far as countersinking, I have two suggestions: First, the Dewalt
tapered countersink bits (DW2567, DW2568) are the best ones I've tried
(better than Fuller or off-brands). These are available at Amazon and
my local TrueValue. Sometimes they go on sale at Amazon for about
$6.http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...V/ref=ord_cart...
Second, If you want a separate countersink bit, which is sometimes
handy, I've found this type by Lee Valley to work very well. Easy to
use, cuts cleanly. http://www.leevalley.com/hardware/pa...&cat=3,41306,4...
I just got one of these a couple weeks ago, and it's already earned a
permanent spot within easy reach by my bench. The Weldon brand
version of these countersinks is supposed to be top notch.

Hope this helps,
Andy

Just to add my $.02 on countersinks: avoid using ones with a single
cutting flute, unless it is the type that slides onto a drill bit. It
will make countersinks that are off-center from the drilled hole.
I've got a 5-flute countersink bit that works much better (forget
where I got it, probably either Ace, Home Depot, or Lowe's)

Mark

On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 09:14:47 -0500, dpb wrote:

Swingman wrote:
...

It's pretty simple in this age of corporate greed ...

I submit "corporate greed" is simply a reflection of the consumer
choosing price over quality in the most part...


I would respectfully disagree. In many, I would say most, cases
corporate greed is the driver to decisions that will reduce the
quality of the product when in fact there is perfectly good demand and
profit in the higher quality product. It is not the goal of the
corporation to reduce the quality, simply the outcome. The goal is to
make ten more points of profit margin because, you the consumer, don't
know any better anyway. In many cases, the consumer does not get a
choice or the higher end choice becomes harder and harder to find.

And the big retailers are partners in this effort. They tell the
manufacturer's brand managers, hey you get it from China at a dirt
cheap price or you will lose your shelf space, and we'll develop our
own store brand and get it from China ourselves.


Frank

Frank Boettcher wrote:
On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 09:14:47 -0500, dpb wrote:

Swingman wrote:
...

It's pretty simple in this age of corporate greed ...
I submit "corporate greed" is simply a reflection of the consumer
choosing price over quality in the most part...


I would respectfully disagree. In many, I would say most, cases
corporate greed is the driver to decisions that will reduce the
quality of the product when in fact there is perfectly good demand and
profit in the higher quality product. It is not the goal of the
corporation to reduce the quality, simply the outcome. The goal is to
make ten more points of profit margin because, you the consumer, don't
know any better anyway. In many cases, the consumer does not get a
choice or the higher end choice becomes harder and harder to find.

And the big retailers are partners in this effort. They tell the
manufacturer's brand managers, hey you get it from China at a dirt
cheap price or you will lose your shelf space, and we'll develop our
own store brand and get it from China ourselves.

It's true corporations are motivated to improve profit margins -- that's
their job.

Unfortunately, the success of the mass retailers isn't owing to their
profit margin, it's that the customer has gone there and selected price
as their dominant factor in choice.

Small numbers of consumers (relatively, and I consider myself one of
them and can count on the fingers of one hand the numbers of time I have
been in the Super-Center in the last year) will select on the basis of
other reasons but, for the most part, there simply aren't enough of them
(high-end consumers) to support them (merchandisers).

Consider how often do you go to the Borg for a common item because it is
10 cents cheaper than the "real" lumber yard? Yet expect the yard to
have all the "good stuff" that the Borg doesn't carry? Just can't work
that way. (And that's not meant to be specifically "you personally",
but as an "editorial you" because you can certainly recognize the trait
as being widespread).

--

"Frank Boettcher" wrote

And the big retailers are partners in this effort. They tell the
manufacturer's brand managers, hey you get it from China at a dirt
cheap price or you will lose your shelf space, and we'll develop our
own store brand and get it from China ourselves.



Home Depot goes one step further. They will take perfectly good products
that can be purchased in the United States and get cheap knock offs made for
a substantially lower price. This in turn is sold in their stores at the
original price.

We get screwed five ways.

1) We get cheap crap sold to us. (The quality gets lower and lower all the
time.)

2) We often have to pay the same price as the higher quality product for the
cheap knock off.

3) More jobs are lost overseas to the junk makers.

4) We are having many choices systematically removed from the marketplace.
This in turn reduces employment in this country as well as flooding us with
crap.

5) Our houses. projects and lives are negatively impacted because of all the
crap products we must use. This is because quality products are driven from
the retail markets.

"dpb" wrote in message ...
Swingman wrote:
...

It's pretty simple in this age of corporate greed ...

I submit "corporate greed" is simply a reflection of the consumer choosing
price over quality in the most part...

--

In Swingman's case, he probably paid more for the Rockler screws that he
would have from McFeeley's. Ironically I have found that most often the
more expensive the screw the poorer the quality. This is mostly because you
pay a lot for the convenience of getting the screw in a smaller quantity and
today.

"dpb" wrote in message ...
Swingman wrote:
...

...for the most part, Rockler branded items are mostly chinese...

That's the rub for me -- it's sorta' like the HF deal -- there's no
telling what will get unloaded off the boat the next time. From one
reorder to the next they're likely to have completely changed suppliers so
there's no guarantee that what was satisfactory/good the last time will be
the next...

Must have gone to the Sears-Roebuck school of made-by-the-lowest-bidder.

We've been twisting these screws for the last ten years or so:
http://www.grkfasteners.com/en/R4_1_2_information.htm and I can count on one
hand the number of heads that have twisted off. And, they're not Chinese
although they are Canadian. Here in Houston, Circle Saw is the only source
I've ever been able to locate though, ironically, I find them at South Texas
rural Do-It-Best hardware centers and, for about the same price which is
usually around $6.00/lb.
--
NuWave Dave in Houston

"Dave in Houston" wrote in message

We've been twisting these screws for the last ten years or so:
http://www.grkfasteners.com/en/R4_1_2_information.htm and I can count on
one
hand the number of heads that have twisted off. And, they're not Chinese
although they are Canadian. Here in Houston, Circle Saw is the only
source
I've ever been able to locate though, ironically, I find them at South
Texas
rural Do-It-Best hardware centers and, for about the same price which is
usually around $6.00/lb.

Yep ... those are good fasteners. Bill at CS turned me on to them a few
years ago, but I hardly every get by there, unless it's to get something
repaired.

I do better getting to Mid-America than I do CS, even though it is inside
the loop (barely) so I don't even need to get my passport stamped.


--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 6/1/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

In article .com,
says...
Probably better to buy screws by the hundred box as you need them.


What surprised me at first was, how a box of 1000 usually only costs as much as
2 or 3 100-packs. What surprised me even more was how quickly they're gone ;-)

Those 'self-counter-sinking' screws are fine in plywood and softwood but I
don't like using them with MDF since they often throw up a ridge around the
head, so I use a countersink bit regardless. They don't work in hard wood. And
they stink for screwing on metal hardware. Ironically, screws that don't have
the ridges are harder to get in these parts now - I often have to put in a
special order for them.

I use stainless with square drive almost exclusively these days. Price
difference is negligible in bulk amounts.

-P.

--
=========================================
firstname dot lastname at gmail fullstop com

Peter Huebner wrote:

I use stainless with square drive almost exclusively these days. Price
difference is negligible in bulk amounts.

Same here.

I also like the way McFeely's square drive screws don't have tapered
threads. They hold better in a straight sided hole, and eliminate
faffing around with tapered drills.

On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 12:24:27 -0500, dpb wrote:

Frank Boettcher wrote:
On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 09:14:47 -0500, dpb wrote:

Swingman wrote:
...

It's pretty simple in this age of corporate greed ...
I submit "corporate greed" is simply a reflection of the consumer
choosing price over quality in the most part...


I would respectfully disagree. In many, I would say most, cases
corporate greed is the driver to decisions that will reduce the
quality of the product when in fact there is perfectly good demand and
profit in the higher quality product. It is not the goal of the
corporation to reduce the quality, simply the outcome. The goal is to
make ten more points of profit margin because, you the consumer, don't
know any better anyway. In many cases, the consumer does not get a
choice or the higher end choice becomes harder and harder to find.

And the big retailers are partners in this effort. They tell the
manufacturer's brand managers, hey you get it from China at a dirt
cheap price or you will lose your shelf space, and we'll develop our
own store brand and get it from China ourselves.

It's true corporations are motivated to improve profit margins -- that's
their job.

Their job is to do the will of the owners. If the owners by weight
are investors who are mostly interested in reasonable growth, dividend
income, and long term continuity, then what they do by risking that
for quick profits is a legal crime. It is done because their personal
compensation is based stock appreciation in the short term.

As one who lived through the transition of a company from a
profitable, highly respected entity with products that were
considered benchmark in their industry to one that put all that at
risk in a mad dash to China, I can speak from experience.

Did they do the will of the owners? The stock, at the end of this
period, lost 50% of its value as a result of this strategy and the
company had to be sold at a significant discount.

Did the decision makers suffer from those decisions. Nope, they made
their money before the stock dropped by collecting grants, bonuses,
and exercising options that appreciated prior to the investing
community figuring out where it was going. All but one are gone, but
all left wealthy.

Frank




Unfortunately, the success of the mass retailers isn't owing to their
profit margin, it's that the customer has gone there and selected price
as their dominant factor in choice.

Small numbers of consumers (relatively, and I consider myself one of
them and can count on the fingers of one hand the numbers of time I have
been in the Super-Center in the last year) will select on the basis of
other reasons but, for the most part, there simply aren't enough of them
(high-end consumers) to support them (merchandisers).

Consider how often do you go to the Borg for a common item because it is
10 cents cheaper than the "real" lumber yard? Yet expect the yard to
have all the "good stuff" that the Borg doesn't carry? Just can't work
that way. (And that's not meant to be specifically "you personally",
but as an "editorial you" because you can certainly recognize the trait
as being widespread).

Frank Boettcher wrote:
On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 12:24:27 -0500, dpb wrote:

Frank Boettcher wrote:
On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 09:14:47 -0500, dpb wrote:

Swingman wrote:
...

It's pretty simple in this age of corporate greed ...
I submit "corporate greed" is simply a reflection of the consumer
choosing price over quality in the most part...

I would respectfully disagree. In many, I would say most, cases
corporate greed is the driver to decisions that will reduce the
quality of the product when in fact there is perfectly good demand and
profit in the higher quality product. It is not the goal of the
corporation to reduce the quality, simply the outcome. The goal is to
make ten more points of profit margin because, you the consumer, don't
know any better anyway. In many cases, the consumer does not get a
choice or the higher end choice becomes harder and harder to find.

And the big retailers are partners in this effort. They tell the
manufacturer's brand managers, hey you get it from China at a dirt
cheap price or you will lose your shelf space, and we'll develop our
own store brand and get it from China ourselves.
It's true corporations are motivated to improve profit margins -- that's
their job.

Their job is to do the will of the owners. If the owners by weight
are investors who are mostly interested in reasonable growth, dividend
income, and long term continuity, then what they do by risking that
for quick profits is a legal crime. It is done because their personal
compensation is based stock appreciation in the short term.

Whether management for short term stock price targets is a crime is
surely debatable at best. Whether it is or isn't a wise management
practice is a different question, of course. The problem tends to
revolve around Boards of Directors who take too passive of a role in
oversight imo, and I won't disagree about compensation plans that tend
to reward poor behavior.

But, overall, the problems are deeper-rooted and ultimately for retail
most noticeably, driven by the competitive markets.

--

Lee Michaels wrote:
"dpb" wrote

Swingman wrote:
...

It's pretty simple in this age of corporate greed ...

I submit "corporate greed" is simply a reflection of the consumer
choosing price over quality in the most part...

Yes, you could argue that.

But I submit that quality is often not even available locally and in
many venues. If corporate greed was not a factor, this would not be
the case. However you look at it, a lot of scumbags make decisions
that make it harder for the rest of us.

And I don't want to hear the pure economic model crap either. If
mega corps really gave a damn about us, quality products would be
available right along the low priced consumer crap. You know the
*******s are winning when you can't even buy good fasteners locally.

Quality products are readily available. You just have to find them and
be willing to pay the price.

For fasteners, most cities of any size have several suppliers who deal
in nothing but fasteners and the tools to install them, and those
suppliers can get you just about anything that you want. But they are
not "home centers" or mom-and-pop hardware stores.

Now, how does "corporate greed" result in local businesses choosing not
to stock what you consider to be "good fasteners"? Is it your
contention that the decision is the result of lack of availability? If
so, then planes should be falling out of the sky every day due to
fastener failure.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

On Tue, 03 Jul 2007 08:09:20 -0500, dpb wrote:

Frank Boettcher wrote:
On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 12:24:27 -0500, dpb wrote:

Frank Boettcher wrote:
On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 09:14:47 -0500, dpb wrote:

Swingman wrote:
...

It's pretty simple in this age of corporate greed ...
I submit "corporate greed" is simply a reflection of the consumer
choosing price over quality in the most part...

I would respectfully disagree. In many, I would say most, cases
corporate greed is the driver to decisions that will reduce the
quality of the product when in fact there is perfectly good demand and
profit in the higher quality product. It is not the goal of the
corporation to reduce the quality, simply the outcome. The goal is to
make ten more points of profit margin because, you the consumer, don't
know any better anyway. In many cases, the consumer does not get a
choice or the higher end choice becomes harder and harder to find.

And the big retailers are partners in this effort. They tell the
manufacturer's brand managers, hey you get it from China at a dirt
cheap price or you will lose your shelf space, and we'll develop our
own store brand and get it from China ourselves.
It's true corporations are motivated to improve profit margins -- that's
their job.

Their job is to do the will of the owners. If the owners by weight
are investors who are mostly interested in reasonable growth, dividend
income, and long term continuity, then what they do by risking that
for quick profits is a legal crime. It is done because their personal
compensation is based stock appreciation in the short term.

Whether management for short term stock price targets is a crime is
surely debatable at best. Whether it is or isn't a wise management
practice is a different question, of course. The problem tends to
revolve around Boards of Directors who take too passive of a role in
oversight imo, and I won't disagree about compensation plans that tend
to reward poor behavior.

But, overall, the problems are deeper-rooted and ultimately for retail
most noticeably, driven by the competitive markets.


IF we have a point of contention it has to do with the "chicken and
the egg"

You seem to think this is consumer driven. My point is that
consumers, particularly those that might follow a forum like this,
many high end hobbiests or professional woodworkers, are not storming
the board rooms screaming that they want to save five or ten percent
on products that will make the corporation much more than that and
that they are willing to take poor quality for that savings.

It is the corporations that drive the reduction in quality, put it out
there for you to buy, and make finding a high quality alternative
difficult by, in collaboration with the large retailers, snapping up
all the shelf space. At least that is my opinion.

The "Corporate Greed" comes to bear when they are already profitable,
have a loyal customer base that depends on the quality of the product
that they supply, but feel they can squeese out a little more by
taking it to a quality risky offshore source. They are not doing this
to "survive".

Frank

Frank Boettcher wrote:
....

You seem to think this is consumer driven. My point is that
consumers, particularly those that might follow a forum like this,
many high end hobbiests or professional woodworkers, are not storming
the board rooms screaming that they want to save five or ten percent
on products that will make the corporation much more than that and
that they are willing to take poor quality for that savings.

I don't "think" it is consumer driven, I observe that it is...

The election is made by the choice at where the dollars are being spent.
The surest way to get the box stores to go away is for the crowds that
frequent them to go someplace else. Until they do, they won't.

It is the corporations that drive the reduction in quality, put it out
there for you to buy, and make finding a high quality alternative
difficult by, in collaboration with the large retailers, snapping up
all the shelf space. At least that is my opinion.

The "Corporate Greed" comes to bear when they are already profitable,
have a loyal customer base that depends on the quality of the product
that they supply, but feel they can squeese out a little more by
taking it to a quality risky offshore source. They are not doing this
to "survive".

Oh, but au contraire... Were it but true. In general, the "loyal
customer base" is loyal until the next bid cycle goes out and a
competitor comes in with a price a nickel lower. The few (if any) who
really would be loyal simply are not enough except in very rare
instances to even maintain a business what more grow it.

It is definitely true in all consumer/retail goods (which is what I'd
estimate at least 70-80+% of the participants here are familiar with) as
opposed to "true" industrial supply.

But, even in that environment, an example -- Have a very good friend who
is an engineer whose expertise is in management of casting foundries.
Have known him for almost 40 years now. In that time he has gone from
the small, family-owned independent single-supplier/customer mills
(brake castings, etc., for Ford, GM, Chrysler, etc.), to the
Japanese-owned multi-facilities under consolidated ownership as the
industry has changed. One of his former facilities makes high-precision
castings for the electrical transmission field amongst other things.
For almost 75 years, this particular company/mill had about 75% of the
US market. Over the last 10 years this has dropped to less than 50%
owing to--you guessed it! Chinese imports taking business from their
"loyal" customers. Quality is as good as theirs, price is competitive,
but the differential is something they can't match and produce in the
US. So much for "loyalty".

Their niche now is in fast turnaround but large bulk routine product is
now coming from suppliers to them from overseas. Needless to say, this
isn't a choice they have made on their own. Their revenues are roughly
equivalent but margins are _way_ down. Revenues are helped
significantly in the present market climate by the huge expansion in
generation capabilities in China and India and the ensuing
infrastructure expansion. When that slows as it eventually will, it's
anybody's guess as to what their future holds. At present it certainly
doesn't look rosy for the long term unless/until they find new
markets/products.

It IS a global economy for good or ill and wishing it weren't isn't
going to make it so. In the long run it will probably work out for the
better. In the short run, there's going to be yet more upheaval and
restructuring.

But, unless there is a _MAJOR_ shift in the US publics' buying habits,
the days of the box stores and all seem ahead of them...

IMO, ymmv, $0.02, etc., etc., etc., ...

--

On Tue, 03 Jul 2007 13:14:06 -0500, dpb wrote:

Frank Boettcher wrote:
...

You seem to think this is consumer driven. My point is that
consumers, particularly those that might follow a forum like this,
many high end hobbiests or professional woodworkers, are not storming
the board rooms screaming that they want to save five or ten percent
on products that will make the corporation much more than that and
that they are willing to take poor quality for that savings.

I don't "think" it is consumer driven, I observe that it is...

so those end users, and that's what we are talking about, are storming
the boardrooms. Funny, I never noticed them. I do see them on the
aisles, buying what is put out in front of them cuz that's all there
is.


The election is made by the choice at where the dollars are being spent.
The surest way to get the box stores to go away is for the crowds that
frequent them to go someplace else. Until they do, they won't.

Key word, choice. In many cases there is none.

It is the corporations that drive the reduction in quality, put it out
there for you to buy, and make finding a high quality alternative
difficult by, in collaboration with the large retailers, snapping up
all the shelf space. At least that is my opinion.

The "Corporate Greed" comes to bear when they are already profitable,
have a loyal customer base that depends on the quality of the product
that they supply, but feel they can squeese out a little more by
taking it to a quality risky offshore source. They are not doing this
to "survive".

Oh, but au contraire... Were it but true. In general, the "loyal
customer base" is loyal until the next bid cycle goes out and a
competitor comes in with a price a nickel lower. The few (if any) who
really would be loyal simply are not enough except in very rare
instances to even maintain a business what more grow it.

You seem to have shifted from the end user consumer to the wholesale
or manufacturing buyer. There doing what their corporate "leaders" are
telling them to do. That is not what we are discussing. You're
making my point. The consumer is not driving it, just swept along in
many cases.


It is definitely true in all consumer/retail goods (which is what I'd
estimate at least 70-80+% of the participants here are familiar with) as
opposed to "true" industrial supply.

But, even in that environment, an example -- Have a very good friend who
is an engineer whose expertise is in management of casting foundries.
Have known him for almost 40 years now. In that time he has gone from
the small, family-owned independent single-supplier/customer mills
(brake castings, etc., for Ford, GM, Chrysler, etc.), to the
Japanese-owned multi-facilities under consolidated ownership as the
industry has changed. One of his former facilities makes high-precision
castings for the electrical transmission field amongst other things.
For almost 75 years, this particular company/mill had about 75% of the
US market. Over the last 10 years this has dropped to less than 50%
owing to--you guessed it! Chinese imports taking business from their
"loyal" customers. Quality is as good as theirs, price is competitive,
but the differential is something they can't match and produce in the
US. So much for "loyalty".

I feel for your friend, and I don't know what kind of castings he
makes. I have extensive experience in gray iron, machined. There is
no doubt in my mind that the Chinese quality is significantly lower.
I've had an opportunity to review extensive capability studies on
Chinese foundries. When the same class 25 iron part that I was buying
from domestic foundries with a Brinnell hardness range of 190-205
(just right for both machining and grinding) comes from China with a
range of 140-240 (low end a disaster for strength and grinding, high
end to brittle and a nightmare for machining) with chill spots, sand
occlusions, parting line shifts, questionable chemistry, terrible
mechanical properties, etc, etc....and unable to get to stastical
capability on dimensions, I know it is so.

But they get used, and the machines are not as good.

But you continue to make my point. Not one of the end user customers
said "give me that chinese iron and a 10% price break.. I can't wait
for that. But I heard many times, "what are you doing to the product,
you're screwing it up. It is the Corporate "leaders" that are
saying, "hey our customers won't know any difference, let's use the
junk.


Their niche now is in fast turnaround but large bulk routine product is
now coming from suppliers to them from overseas. Needless to say, this
isn't a choice they have made on their own. Their revenues are roughly
equivalent but margins are _way_ down. Revenues are helped
significantly in the present market climate by the huge expansion in
generation capabilities in China and India and the ensuing
infrastructure expansion. When that slows as it eventually will, it's
anybody's guess as to what their future holds. At present it certainly
doesn't look rosy for the long term unless/until they find new
markets/products.

Once again, the customers your refer to are not end user consumers,
but manufacturers (corporations) that are demanding that switch.

It IS a global economy for good or ill and wishing it weren't isn't
going to make it so. In the long run it will probably work out for the
better. In the short run, there's going to be yet more upheaval and
restructuring.

But, unless there is a _MAJOR_ shift in the US publics' buying habits,
the days of the box stores and all seem ahead of them...

I agree. But I still feel it is corporate greed that is the driver,
not the consumer out there saying that is what I want.

Frank

IMO, ymmv, $0.02, etc., etc., etc., ..

Frank Boettcher wrote:

Key word, choice. In many cases there is none.

Rubbish, there is always a choice.

Don't like the quality, don't buy.

Don't like the price, don't buy.

Keep your dick skinners wrapped tightly around you wallet and wait.

He who has the gold is in control.

I've yet to see something for sale I couldn't walk away from.

Too many years dealing with some tough contractors I guess.

Lew

"J. Clarke" jclarke.usenet cox.net wrote:

Lee Michaels wrote:
"dpb" none non.net wrote

Swingman wrote:
...

It's pretty simple in this age of corporate greed ...

I submit "corporate greed" is simply a reflection of the consumer
choosing price over quality in the most part...

Yes, you could argue that.

But I submit that quality is often not even available locally and
in many venues. If corporate greed was not a factor, this would
not be the case. However you look at it, a lot of scumbags make
decisions that make it harder for the rest of us.

And I don't want to hear the pure economic model crap either. If
mega corps really gave a damn about us, quality products would be
available right along the low priced consumer crap. You know the
*******s are winning when you can't even buy good fasteners
locally.

Now, how does "corporate greed" result in local businesses choosing
not to stock what you consider to be "good fasteners"? Is it your
contention that the decision is the result of lack of availability?

That lack of availability driving the price sky high.

If so, then planes should be falling out of the sky every day due to
fastener failure.

Nope. Big companies that make planes can get whatever they want. It's
like Windows. Ordinary consumers are stuck under Microsoft's thumb,
but Window's dominance was stopped before it reached the corporate
server market level.












--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)




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From: "J. Clarke" jclarke.usenet cox.net
Newsgroups: rec.woodworking
Subject: Buy wood screw assortment packs? (online USA)
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On Jul 2, 7:42 pm, Peter Huebner wrote:
In article .com,
says...

Probably better to buy screws by the hundred box as you need them.

What surprised me at first was, how a box of 1000 usually only costs as much as
2 or 3 100-packs. What surprised me even more was how quickly they're gone ;-)

Those 'self-counter-sinking' screws are fine in plywood and softwood but I
don't like using them with MDF since they often throw up a ridge around the
head, so I use a countersink bit regardless. They don't work in hard wood. And
they stink for screwing on metal hardware. Ironically, screws that don't have
the ridges are harder to get in these parts now - I often have to put in a
special order for them.

I use stainless with square drive almost exclusively these days. Price
difference is negligible in bulk amounts.

-P.

--
=========================================
firstname dot lastname at gmail fullstop com

Since this thread is wandering a bit off the OP's topic I will add one
more story. A good many years ago I started a small cabinet making
business after a career as an engineer. I bought the new tools I
needed from a small shop who carried professional quality tools,
supplies and provided sharpening services. He eventually focused
solely on sharpening and told me that the BORG was selling tools for
less than he had to pay at wholesale.
Joe G

John Doe wrote:
....

... Ordinary consumers are stuck under Microsoft's thumb,
....

How's that? There's Mac, multiple flavors of Unix and even free flavors
of Linux, et al., ...

--

Frank Boettcher wrote:
On Tue, 03 Jul 2007 13:14:06 -0500, dpb wrote:

Frank Boettcher wrote:
...

You seem to think this is consumer driven. My point is that
consumers, particularly those that might follow a forum like this,
many high end hobbiests or professional woodworkers, are not storming
the board rooms screaming that they want to save five or ten percent
on products that will make the corporation much more than that and
that they are willing to take poor quality for that savings.
I don't "think" it is consumer driven, I observe that it is...

so those end users, and that's what we are talking about, are storming
the boardrooms. Funny, I never noticed them. I do see them on the
aisles, buying what is put out in front of them cuz that's all there
is.


The election is made by the choice at where the dollars are being spent.
The surest way to get the box stores to go away is for the crowds that
frequent them to go someplace else. Until they do, they won't.

Key word, choice. In many cases there is none.

There is _always_ some. It may not be the most convenient, but that's
part of the equation of choice.

It is the corporations that drive the reduction in quality, put it out
there for you to buy, and make finding a high quality alternative
difficult by, in collaboration with the large retailers, snapping up
all the shelf space. At least that is my opinion.

The "Corporate Greed" comes to bear when they are already profitable,
have a loyal customer base that depends on the quality of the product
that they supply, but feel they can squeese out a little more by
taking it to a quality risky offshore source. They are not doing this
to "survive".
Oh, but au contraire... Were it but true. In general, the "loyal
customer base" is loyal until the next bid cycle goes out and a
competitor comes in with a price a nickel lower. The few (if any) who
really would be loyal simply are not enough except in very rare
instances to even maintain a business what more grow it.

You seem to have shifted from the end user consumer to the wholesale
or manufacturing buyer. There doing what their corporate "leaders" are
telling them to do. That is not what we are discussing. You're
making my point. The consumer is not driving it, just swept along in
many cases.

But I was making a point that competition is keen and if they don't
compete, sheer customer loyalty is a false hope.

....

I feel for your friend, and I don't know what kind of castings he
makes. I have extensive experience in gray iron, machined. There is
no doubt in my mind that the Chinese quality is significantly lower.
I've had an opportunity to review extensive capability studies on
Chinese foundries. When the same class 25 iron part that I was buying
from domestic foundries with a Brinnell hardness range of 190-205
(just right for both machining and grinding) comes from China with a
range of 140-240 (low end a disaster for strength and grinding, high
end to brittle and a nightmare for machining) with chill spots, sand
occlusions, parting line shifts, questionable chemistry, terrible
mechanical properties, etc, etc....and unable to get to stastical
capability on dimensions, I know it is so.

But they get used, and the machines are not as good.

There's no point if feeling sorry for him and that wasn't the point. He
has since moved on back to a smaller foundry. The particular product in
that case were connections for large very high voltage distribution lines.

The Chinese _can_ make very high quality product if you specify it and
control it. In order to do so you'll probably have to invest your own
time and expertise on site to gain it, but many are finding that profitable.

But you continue to make my point. Not one of the end user customers
said "give me that chinese iron and a 10% price break.. I can't wait
for that. But I heard many times, "what are you doing to the product,
you're screwing it up. It is the Corporate "leaders" that are
saying, "hey our customers won't know any difference, let's use the
junk.

In your particular instance, maybe they have chosen to go after a lower
market and left the high end behind. Or, maybe like you say, management
has made a bad choice. If so, and their customers don't like it, they
soon won't be customers and the company will either change its product,
its target customer, or go away. That's competition. Ugly, but real.

....

Once again, the customers your refer to are not end user consumers,

But they _are_ the end user customers and they're simply being rational
consumers. They found another supplier of equivalent (or at least
adequate) quality/performance and chose them over their previous
supplier on the basis of cost.

....

I agree. But I still feel it is corporate greed that is the driver,
not the consumer out there saying that is what I want.

Then why is Walmart the bane of the local high end shop in Anytown, USA?

--

In article .com,
says...

Since this thread is wandering a bit off the OP's topic I will add one
more story. A good many years ago I started a small cabinet making
business after a career as an engineer. I bought the new tools I
needed from a small shop who carried professional quality tools,
supplies and provided sharpening services. He eventually focused
solely on sharpening and told me that the BORG was selling tools for
less than he had to pay at wholesale.
Joe G

Yupp. Friend of mine had a small computer business once. The wholesale
prices he got were more than some of the retail I paid (elsewhere).

The dice are loaded.

-P.

--
=========================================
firstname dot lastname at gmail fullstop com