On Tue, 03 Jul 2007 13:14:06 -0500, dpb wrote:

Frank Boettcher wrote:
...

You seem to think this is consumer driven. My point is that
consumers, particularly those that might follow a forum like this,
many high end hobbiests or professional woodworkers, are not storming
the board rooms screaming that they want to save five or ten percent
on products that will make the corporation much more than that and
that they are willing to take poor quality for that savings.

I don't "think" it is consumer driven, I observe that it is...

so those end users, and that's what we are talking about, are storming
the boardrooms. Funny, I never noticed them. I do see them on the
aisles, buying what is put out in front of them cuz that's all there
is.


The election is made by the choice at where the dollars are being spent.
The surest way to get the box stores to go away is for the crowds that
frequent them to go someplace else. Until they do, they won't.

Key word, choice. In many cases there is none.

It is the corporations that drive the reduction in quality, put it out
there for you to buy, and make finding a high quality alternative
difficult by, in collaboration with the large retailers, snapping up
all the shelf space. At least that is my opinion.

The "Corporate Greed" comes to bear when they are already profitable,
have a loyal customer base that depends on the quality of the product
that they supply, but feel they can squeese out a little more by
taking it to a quality risky offshore source. They are not doing this
to "survive".

Oh, but au contraire... Were it but true. In general, the "loyal
customer base" is loyal until the next bid cycle goes out and a
competitor comes in with a price a nickel lower. The few (if any) who
really would be loyal simply are not enough except in very rare
instances to even maintain a business what more grow it.

You seem to have shifted from the end user consumer to the wholesale
or manufacturing buyer. There doing what their corporate "leaders" are
telling them to do. That is not what we are discussing. You're
making my point. The consumer is not driving it, just swept along in
many cases.


It is definitely true in all consumer/retail goods (which is what I'd
estimate at least 70-80+% of the participants here are familiar with) as
opposed to "true" industrial supply.

But, even in that environment, an example -- Have a very good friend who
is an engineer whose expertise is in management of casting foundries.
Have known him for almost 40 years now. In that time he has gone from
the small, family-owned independent single-supplier/customer mills
(brake castings, etc., for Ford, GM, Chrysler, etc.), to the
Japanese-owned multi-facilities under consolidated ownership as the
industry has changed. One of his former facilities makes high-precision
castings for the electrical transmission field amongst other things.
For almost 75 years, this particular company/mill had about 75% of the
US market. Over the last 10 years this has dropped to less than 50%
owing to--you guessed it! Chinese imports taking business from their
"loyal" customers. Quality is as good as theirs, price is competitive,
but the differential is something they can't match and produce in the
US. So much for "loyalty".

I feel for your friend, and I don't know what kind of castings he
makes. I have extensive experience in gray iron, machined. There is
no doubt in my mind that the Chinese quality is significantly lower.
I've had an opportunity to review extensive capability studies on
Chinese foundries. When the same class 25 iron part that I was buying
from domestic foundries with a Brinnell hardness range of 190-205
(just right for both machining and grinding) comes from China with a
range of 140-240 (low end a disaster for strength and grinding, high
end to brittle and a nightmare for machining) with chill spots, sand
occlusions, parting line shifts, questionable chemistry, terrible
mechanical properties, etc, etc....and unable to get to stastical
capability on dimensions, I know it is so.

But they get used, and the machines are not as good.

But you continue to make my point. Not one of the end user customers
said "give me that chinese iron and a 10% price break.. I can't wait
for that. But I heard many times, "what are you doing to the product,
you're screwing it up. It is the Corporate "leaders" that are
saying, "hey our customers won't know any difference, let's use the
junk.


Their niche now is in fast turnaround but large bulk routine product is
now coming from suppliers to them from overseas. Needless to say, this
isn't a choice they have made on their own. Their revenues are roughly
equivalent but margins are _way_ down. Revenues are helped
significantly in the present market climate by the huge expansion in
generation capabilities in China and India and the ensuing
infrastructure expansion. When that slows as it eventually will, it's
anybody's guess as to what their future holds. At present it certainly
doesn't look rosy for the long term unless/until they find new
markets/products.

Once again, the customers your refer to are not end user consumers,
but manufacturers (corporations) that are demanding that switch.

It IS a global economy for good or ill and wishing it weren't isn't
going to make it so. In the long run it will probably work out for the
better. In the short run, there's going to be yet more upheaval and
restructuring.

But, unless there is a _MAJOR_ shift in the US publics' buying habits,
the days of the box stores and all seem ahead of them...

I agree. But I still feel it is corporate greed that is the driver,
not the consumer out there saying that is what I want.

Frank

IMO, ymmv, $0.02, etc., etc., etc., ..