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Buy wood screw assortment packs? (online USA)
What's your favorite online place to buy wood screw assortment packs? By the way. Are self tapping screw heads any good? Mainly curious. I'll probably buy some of those drill bits that make room for the screw head. Sorry, don't know the terminology. |
Buy wood screw assortment packs? (online USA)
John Doe wrote in news:1u1ii.8614$bP5.2943
@newssvr19.news.prodigy.net: What's your favorite online place to buy wood screw assortment packs? I usually buy screws at the hardware store. If I know I'll need a lot, I'll buy a lot. I rarely buy assortment packs, as I usually don't need 10-1/2" screws, 4-5/8", 20-3/4" screws, etc. By the way. Are self tapping screw heads any good? Mainly curious. I'll probably buy some of those drill bits that make room for the screw head. Sorry, don't know the terminology. Self-tapping screw heads usually work ok. If you're working anywhere near the edge of a piece of wood, though, you should predrill for the screw. With the cost of screw guns (and drills) it's worth buying a second one to dedicate to drilling. It's much easier to switch between drills than it is to switch between bits. The drill bits that make room for the screw head are called "countersinks" or "countersunk". You can get them alone, or at the end of a drill bit. (You can even use a drill bit to countersink a screw head, but it's not always easy to do accurately.) Puckdropper -- Wise is the man who attempts to answer his question before asking it. To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm |
Buy wood screw assortment packs? (online USA)
Puckdropper wrote:
.... With the cost of screw guns (and drills) it's worth buying a second one to dedicate to drilling. It's much easier to switch between drills than it is to switch between bits. Yup, got a Panasonic 12 V drill and impact driver during that outrageous deal on Amazon last month. The impact driver is noisy as expected, and it's a little unusual to use, but it drove ordinary slotted screws without stripping or slipping off of the head. (You can even use a drill bit to countersink a screw head, but it's not always easy to do accurately.) With me, it's better than nothing, but tedious and inconsistent. Enjoyed your writing about countersinks, thanks. Puckdropper |
Buy wood screw assortment packs? (online USA)
McFeeleys's - the DIY Dozen. If you have not "converted" to sqaure drive,
do it now. "John Doe" wrote in message t... What's your favorite online place to buy wood screw assortment packs? By the way. Are self tapping screw heads any good? Mainly curious. I'll probably buy some of those drill bits that make room for the screw head. Sorry, don't know the terminology. -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
Buy wood screw assortment packs? (online USA)
On Jul 2, 3:06 am, John Doe wrote:
What's your favorite online place to buy wood screw assortment packs? By the way. Are self tapping screw heads any good? Mainly curious. I'll probably buy some of those drill bits that make room for the screw head. Sorry, don't know the terminology. A friend of mine used to sell those screw assortment packs in the classifieds in the back of magazines. He said the markup was unbelievable. Probably better to buy screws by the hundred box as you need them. You can also get huge quantities of screws at tag and garage sales. Estate tag sales are the best as you're in the guy's basement and they're looking to clear out everything and the screws _never_ sell. The people running the tag sale would be thrilled for you to do the work getting them out of the house for them. The fasteners are often already in some homemade storage rack to simplify things on your end. R |
Buy wood screw assortment packs? (online USA)
RicodJour wrote:
Probably better to buy screws by the hundred box as you need them. You can also get huge quantities of screws at tag and garage sales. Estate tag sales are the best as you're in the guy's basement and they're looking to clear out everything and the screws _never_ sell. The people running the tag sale would be thrilled for you to do the work getting them out of the house for them. The fasteners are often already in some homemade storage rack to simplify things on your end. That's a terrific idea. |
Buy wood screw assortment packs? (online USA)
B A R R Y wrote:
RicodJour wrote: Probably better to buy screws by the hundred box as you need them. You can also get huge quantities of screws at tag and garage sales. Estate tag sales are the best as you're in the guy's basement and they're looking to clear out everything and the screws _never_ sell. The people running the tag sale would be thrilled for you to do the work getting them out of the house for them. The fasteners are often already in some homemade storage rack to simplify things on your end. That's a terrific idea. My luck has always been all that's there is the myriad of coffee cans full of miscellaneous stuff all throwed together--or, the organized set that sells for more than it would new... :( -- |
Buy wood screw assortment packs? (online USA)
I've found the assortment packs from Rockler to be very good quality
screws, and actually to be cheaper than buying the individual 100- packs. http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?sku=300&cs=1 These "Square-X" screws will drive with either a phillips (everyone has one) or a square drive (works much better) bit. This combo pack is only available online. Rockler are the only tapered head wood screws I use now - don't bother with wood screws from Home Depot - they're awful. One time I thought I'd save time by getting screws there, and I twisted several heads off #10 screws. Waste of time and money. And I haven't tried them, but McFeeley's wood screws are supposed to be top of the line. They have combo packs also. As far as countersinking, I have two suggestions: First, the Dewalt tapered countersink bits (DW2567, DW2568) are the best ones I've tried (better than Fuller or off-brands). These are available at Amazon and my local TrueValue. Sometimes they go on sale at Amazon for about $6. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...X0DER&v=glance Second, If you want a separate countersink bit, which is sometimes handy, I've found this type by Lee Valley to work very well. Easy to use, cuts cleanly. http://www.leevalley.com/hardware/pa...=3,41306,41328 I just got one of these a couple weeks ago, and it's already earned a permanent spot within easy reach by my bench. The Weldon brand version of these countersinks is supposed to be top notch. Hope this helps, Andy |
Buy wood screw assortment packs? (online USA)
"Andy" wrote in message
I've found the assortment packs from Rockler to be very good quality screws, and actually to be cheaper than buying the individual 100- packs. http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?sku=300&cs=1 These "Square-X" screws will drive with either a phillips (everyone has one) or a square drive (works much better) bit. This combo pack is only available online. Rockler are the only tapered head wood screws I use now - don't bother with wood screws from Home Depot - they're awful. One time I thought I'd save time by getting screws there, and I twisted several heads off #10 screws. Waste of time and money. And I haven't tried them, but McFeeley's wood screws are supposed to be top of the line. They have combo packs also. Voice of experience: Do NOT to trust Rockler screws for critical work, like screwing adjacent cabinet face frames together! Rockler screws are barely a cut above those you buy at the Borg's and, while OK for many shop tasks, they simply will not perform like a quality screw. It's pretty simple in this age of corporate greed ... if you need a wood screw you can rely on, McFeely's is a good way to go. -- www.e-woodshop.net Last update: 6/1/07 KarlC@ (the obvious) |
Buy wood screw assortment packs? (online USA)
John Doe wrote in news:1u1ii.8614$bP5.2943
@newssvr19.news.prodigy.net: What's your favorite online place to buy wood screw assortment packs? By the way. Are self tapping screw heads any good? Mainly curious. I'll probably buy some of those drill bits that make room for the screw head. Sorry, don't know the terminology. www.mcfeeleys.com great products, reasonable prices. Occasional wReck participant. no affiliation, etc. Patriarch |
Buy wood screw assortment packs? (online USA)
Swingman wrote:
.... It's pretty simple in this age of corporate greed ... I submit "corporate greed" is simply a reflection of the consumer choosing price over quality in the most part... -- |
Buy wood screw assortment packs? (online USA)
"dpb" wrote Swingman wrote: ... It's pretty simple in this age of corporate greed ... I submit "corporate greed" is simply a reflection of the consumer choosing price over quality in the most part... Yes, you could argue that. But I submit that quality is often not even available locally and in many venues. If corporate greed was not a factor, this would not be the case. However you look at it, a lot of scumbags make decisions that make it harder for the rest of us. And I don't want to hear the pure economic model crap either. If mega corps really gave a damn about us, quality products would be available right along the low priced consumer crap. You know the *******s are winning when you can't even buy good fasteners locally. |
Buy wood screw assortment packs? (online USA)
Voice of experience: Do NOT to trust Rockler screws for critical work, like
screwing adjacent cabinet face frames together! Rockler screws are barely a cut above those you buy at the Borg's and, while OK for many shop tasks, they simply will not perform like a quality screw. Wow - not my experience at all. Were all the ones you used from a single batch? I've used at least several hundred Rockler wood screws, bought at various times, different branches and online, so I didn't just get a "fluke" good batch. I've NEVER had one fail, either while driving or after assembly. Like I said, in my experience with Borg screws, at LEAST 25% of them failed as I was driving, and other batches have been equally unimpressive. I can't say how Rockler's screws compare to McFeeley's, as I haven't used McF's, but Rockler's have been 100% reliable for me, at a good price, and I'm happy with that. I have seen their heads develop surface rust on shop projects that were stored in damp basement corners, but they don't claim to be rustproof or for outdoor use. I haven't had any show rust in storage. If I wanted durable screws that would be used in damp conditions or outdoor projects, I wouldn't use Rockler's lube finished screws. I'm not affiliated with Rockler or anyone else, just sharing my positive experiences with reasonably-priced stuff. Andy |
Buy wood screw assortment packs? (online USA)
dpb wrote:
Swingman wrote: ... It's pretty simple in this age of corporate greed ... I submit "corporate greed" is simply a reflection of the consumer choosing price over quality in the most part... Yup, lulled by the misconception that his (or her) government wouldn't allow him to destroy his own society. To me, it's like voting with my money. Instead of voting for the same old Republican or Democrat, I use money to vote for either democracy or communism. If we vote for communism too much, then our government will be able to put the blame squarely on us, saying "you were free to do whatever you wanted, you could have chosen democracy but you chose otherwise". Wake up people. At the same time, don't believe the "globalism" garbage. Leaders of the free world have and could have us trade amongst ourselves, forever. Communist countries cannot compete, we've proved that already. Globalism is probably just a way for the bigger companies to beat up on the smaller companies. |
Buy wood screw assortment packs? (online USA)
Lee Michaels wrote:
"dpb" wrote Swingman wrote: ... It's pretty simple in this age of corporate greed ... I submit "corporate greed" is simply a reflection of the consumer choosing price over quality in the most part... Yes, you could argue that. But I submit that quality is often not even available locally and in many venues. If corporate greed was not a factor, this would not be the case. However you look at it, a lot of scumbags make decisions that make it harder for the rest of us. And I don't want to hear the pure economic model crap either. If mega corps really gave a damn about us, quality products would be available right along the low priced consumer crap. You know the *******s are winning when you can't even buy good fasteners locally. .... Supply follows demand whether you wish to hear it or not...insufficient demand will lead to not carrying a product (or at least not stocking it--non-moving inventory is expensive). -- |
Buy wood screw assortment packs? (online USA)
"dpb" wrote in message Swingman wrote: ... It's pretty simple in this age of corporate greed ... I submit "corporate greed" is simply a reflection of the consumer choosing price over quality in the most part... You're right. Allow me to rephrase that ... "It's pretty simple in the age of the dumb ass and corporate greed ... " Better? -- www.e-woodshop.net Last update: 6/1/07 KarlC@ (the obvious) |
Buy wood screw assortment packs? (online USA)
"Andy" wrote in message
Voice of experience: Do NOT to trust Rockler screws for critical work, like screwing adjacent cabinet face frames together! Rockler screws are barely a cut above those you buy at the Borg's and, while OK for many shop tasks, they simply will not perform like a quality screw. Wow - not my experience at all. Were all the ones you used from a single batch? Yeah ... one batch for the last five custom kitchens ... hardly likely. :) Re-read the first three words you quoted above. I can't say how Rockler's screws compare to McFeeley's, as I haven't used McF's, The more you get into woodworking the more you realize that, for the most part, Rockler branded items are mostly chinese/cheap and pretty much suck, particularly on what can be considered woodworking "supply" items. You admitted that you haven't tried McFeely's screws, a requirement in order to make objective judgments. Give them a try and your love affair with Rockler screws will evaporate, guaranteed. -- www.e-woodshop.net Last update: 6/1/07 KarlC@ (the obvious) |
Buy wood screw assortment packs? (online USA)
Swingman wrote:
.... ...for the most part, Rockler branded items are mostly chinese... That's the rub for me -- it's sorta' like the HF deal -- there's no telling what will get unloaded off the boat the next time. From one reorder to the next they're likely to have completely changed suppliers so there's no guarantee that what was satisfactory/good the last time will be the next... Leading to the possibility that both accounts are accurate from their own experience. (Altho I agree McF's is uniformly top-notch). -- |
Buy wood screw assortment packs? (online USA)
"dpb" wrote in message
Leading to the possibility that both accounts are accurate from their own experience. Nahh ... too wishy washy, IMO. :) Let me put it more "accurately": When you're building/installing $$,$$$.$$ custom kitchens, you will only attempt to do so with Rockler screws ONCE". (Well, maybe twice, cuz you thought you got a "bad batch" the first time ... but you didn't!) Now, that's "accurate", guaranteed! :) -- www.e-woodshop.net Last update: 6/1/07 KarlC@ (the obvious) |
Buy wood screw assortment packs? (online USA)
On Jul 2, 9:29 am, Andy wrote:
As far as countersinking, I have two suggestions: First, the Dewalt tapered countersink bits (DW2567, DW2568) are the best ones I've tried (better than Fuller or off-brands). These are available at Amazon and my local TrueValue. Sometimes they go on sale at Amazon for about $6.http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...V/ref=ord_cart... Second, If you want a separate countersink bit, which is sometimes handy, I've found this type by Lee Valley to work very well. Easy to use, cuts cleanly. http://www.leevalley.com/hardware/pa...&cat=3,41306,4... I just got one of these a couple weeks ago, and it's already earned a permanent spot within easy reach by my bench. The Weldon brand version of these countersinks is supposed to be top notch. Hope this helps, Andy Just to add my $.02 on countersinks: avoid using ones with a single cutting flute, unless it is the type that slides onto a drill bit. It will make countersinks that are off-center from the drilled hole. I've got a 5-flute countersink bit that works much better (forget where I got it, probably either Ace, Home Depot, or Lowe's) Mark |
Buy wood screw assortment packs? (online USA)
On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 09:14:47 -0500, dpb wrote:
Swingman wrote: ... It's pretty simple in this age of corporate greed ... I submit "corporate greed" is simply a reflection of the consumer choosing price over quality in the most part... I would respectfully disagree. In many, I would say most, cases corporate greed is the driver to decisions that will reduce the quality of the product when in fact there is perfectly good demand and profit in the higher quality product. It is not the goal of the corporation to reduce the quality, simply the outcome. The goal is to make ten more points of profit margin because, you the consumer, don't know any better anyway. In many cases, the consumer does not get a choice or the higher end choice becomes harder and harder to find. And the big retailers are partners in this effort. They tell the manufacturer's brand managers, hey you get it from China at a dirt cheap price or you will lose your shelf space, and we'll develop our own store brand and get it from China ourselves. Frank |
Buy wood screw assortment packs? (online USA)
Frank Boettcher wrote:
On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 09:14:47 -0500, dpb wrote: Swingman wrote: ... It's pretty simple in this age of corporate greed ... I submit "corporate greed" is simply a reflection of the consumer choosing price over quality in the most part... I would respectfully disagree. In many, I would say most, cases corporate greed is the driver to decisions that will reduce the quality of the product when in fact there is perfectly good demand and profit in the higher quality product. It is not the goal of the corporation to reduce the quality, simply the outcome. The goal is to make ten more points of profit margin because, you the consumer, don't know any better anyway. In many cases, the consumer does not get a choice or the higher end choice becomes harder and harder to find. And the big retailers are partners in this effort. They tell the manufacturer's brand managers, hey you get it from China at a dirt cheap price or you will lose your shelf space, and we'll develop our own store brand and get it from China ourselves. It's true corporations are motivated to improve profit margins -- that's their job. Unfortunately, the success of the mass retailers isn't owing to their profit margin, it's that the customer has gone there and selected price as their dominant factor in choice. Small numbers of consumers (relatively, and I consider myself one of them and can count on the fingers of one hand the numbers of time I have been in the Super-Center in the last year) will select on the basis of other reasons but, for the most part, there simply aren't enough of them (high-end consumers) to support them (merchandisers). Consider how often do you go to the Borg for a common item because it is 10 cents cheaper than the "real" lumber yard? Yet expect the yard to have all the "good stuff" that the Borg doesn't carry? Just can't work that way. (And that's not meant to be specifically "you personally", but as an "editorial you" because you can certainly recognize the trait as being widespread). -- |
Buy wood screw assortment packs? (online USA)
"Frank Boettcher" wrote And the big retailers are partners in this effort. They tell the manufacturer's brand managers, hey you get it from China at a dirt cheap price or you will lose your shelf space, and we'll develop our own store brand and get it from China ourselves. Home Depot goes one step further. They will take perfectly good products that can be purchased in the United States and get cheap knock offs made for a substantially lower price. This in turn is sold in their stores at the original price. We get screwed five ways. 1) We get cheap crap sold to us. (The quality gets lower and lower all the time.) 2) We often have to pay the same price as the higher quality product for the cheap knock off. 3) More jobs are lost overseas to the junk makers. 4) We are having many choices systematically removed from the marketplace. This in turn reduces employment in this country as well as flooding us with crap. 5) Our houses. projects and lives are negatively impacted because of all the crap products we must use. This is because quality products are driven from the retail markets. |
Buy wood screw assortment packs? (online USA)
"dpb" wrote in message ... Swingman wrote: ... It's pretty simple in this age of corporate greed ... I submit "corporate greed" is simply a reflection of the consumer choosing price over quality in the most part... -- In Swingman's case, he probably paid more for the Rockler screws that he would have from McFeeley's. Ironically I have found that most often the more expensive the screw the poorer the quality. This is mostly because you pay a lot for the convenience of getting the screw in a smaller quantity and today. |
Buy wood screw assortment packs? (online USA)
"dpb" wrote in message ... Swingman wrote: ... ...for the most part, Rockler branded items are mostly chinese... That's the rub for me -- it's sorta' like the HF deal -- there's no telling what will get unloaded off the boat the next time. From one reorder to the next they're likely to have completely changed suppliers so there's no guarantee that what was satisfactory/good the last time will be the next... Must have gone to the Sears-Roebuck school of made-by-the-lowest-bidder. We've been twisting these screws for the last ten years or so: http://www.grkfasteners.com/en/R4_1_2_information.htm and I can count on one hand the number of heads that have twisted off. And, they're not Chinese although they are Canadian. Here in Houston, Circle Saw is the only source I've ever been able to locate though, ironically, I find them at South Texas rural Do-It-Best hardware centers and, for about the same price which is usually around $6.00/lb. -- NuWave Dave in Houston |
Buy wood screw assortment packs? (online USA)
"Dave in Houston" wrote in message We've been twisting these screws for the last ten years or so: http://www.grkfasteners.com/en/R4_1_2_information.htm and I can count on one hand the number of heads that have twisted off. And, they're not Chinese although they are Canadian. Here in Houston, Circle Saw is the only source I've ever been able to locate though, ironically, I find them at South Texas rural Do-It-Best hardware centers and, for about the same price which is usually around $6.00/lb. Yep ... those are good fasteners. Bill at CS turned me on to them a few years ago, but I hardly every get by there, unless it's to get something repaired. I do better getting to Mid-America than I do CS, even though it is inside the loop (barely) so I don't even need to get my passport stamped. -- www.e-woodshop.net Last update: 6/1/07 KarlC@ (the obvious) |
Buy wood screw assortment packs? (online USA)
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Buy wood screw assortment packs? (online USA)
Peter Huebner wrote:
I use stainless with square drive almost exclusively these days. Price difference is negligible in bulk amounts. Same here. I also like the way McFeely's square drive screws don't have tapered threads. They hold better in a straight sided hole, and eliminate faffing around with tapered drills. |
Buy wood screw assortment packs? (online USA)
On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 12:24:27 -0500, dpb wrote:
Frank Boettcher wrote: On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 09:14:47 -0500, dpb wrote: Swingman wrote: ... It's pretty simple in this age of corporate greed ... I submit "corporate greed" is simply a reflection of the consumer choosing price over quality in the most part... I would respectfully disagree. In many, I would say most, cases corporate greed is the driver to decisions that will reduce the quality of the product when in fact there is perfectly good demand and profit in the higher quality product. It is not the goal of the corporation to reduce the quality, simply the outcome. The goal is to make ten more points of profit margin because, you the consumer, don't know any better anyway. In many cases, the consumer does not get a choice or the higher end choice becomes harder and harder to find. And the big retailers are partners in this effort. They tell the manufacturer's brand managers, hey you get it from China at a dirt cheap price or you will lose your shelf space, and we'll develop our own store brand and get it from China ourselves. It's true corporations are motivated to improve profit margins -- that's their job. Their job is to do the will of the owners. If the owners by weight are investors who are mostly interested in reasonable growth, dividend income, and long term continuity, then what they do by risking that for quick profits is a legal crime. It is done because their personal compensation is based stock appreciation in the short term. As one who lived through the transition of a company from a profitable, highly respected entity with products that were considered benchmark in their industry to one that put all that at risk in a mad dash to China, I can speak from experience. Did they do the will of the owners? The stock, at the end of this period, lost 50% of its value as a result of this strategy and the company had to be sold at a significant discount. Did the decision makers suffer from those decisions. Nope, they made their money before the stock dropped by collecting grants, bonuses, and exercising options that appreciated prior to the investing community figuring out where it was going. All but one are gone, but all left wealthy. Frank Unfortunately, the success of the mass retailers isn't owing to their profit margin, it's that the customer has gone there and selected price as their dominant factor in choice. Small numbers of consumers (relatively, and I consider myself one of them and can count on the fingers of one hand the numbers of time I have been in the Super-Center in the last year) will select on the basis of other reasons but, for the most part, there simply aren't enough of them (high-end consumers) to support them (merchandisers). Consider how often do you go to the Borg for a common item because it is 10 cents cheaper than the "real" lumber yard? Yet expect the yard to have all the "good stuff" that the Borg doesn't carry? Just can't work that way. (And that's not meant to be specifically "you personally", but as an "editorial you" because you can certainly recognize the trait as being widespread). |
Buy wood screw assortment packs? (online USA)
Frank Boettcher wrote:
On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 12:24:27 -0500, dpb wrote: Frank Boettcher wrote: On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 09:14:47 -0500, dpb wrote: Swingman wrote: ... It's pretty simple in this age of corporate greed ... I submit "corporate greed" is simply a reflection of the consumer choosing price over quality in the most part... I would respectfully disagree. In many, I would say most, cases corporate greed is the driver to decisions that will reduce the quality of the product when in fact there is perfectly good demand and profit in the higher quality product. It is not the goal of the corporation to reduce the quality, simply the outcome. The goal is to make ten more points of profit margin because, you the consumer, don't know any better anyway. In many cases, the consumer does not get a choice or the higher end choice becomes harder and harder to find. And the big retailers are partners in this effort. They tell the manufacturer's brand managers, hey you get it from China at a dirt cheap price or you will lose your shelf space, and we'll develop our own store brand and get it from China ourselves. It's true corporations are motivated to improve profit margins -- that's their job. Their job is to do the will of the owners. If the owners by weight are investors who are mostly interested in reasonable growth, dividend income, and long term continuity, then what they do by risking that for quick profits is a legal crime. It is done because their personal compensation is based stock appreciation in the short term. Whether management for short term stock price targets is a crime is surely debatable at best. Whether it is or isn't a wise management practice is a different question, of course. The problem tends to revolve around Boards of Directors who take too passive of a role in oversight imo, and I won't disagree about compensation plans that tend to reward poor behavior. But, overall, the problems are deeper-rooted and ultimately for retail most noticeably, driven by the competitive markets. -- |
Buy wood screw assortment packs? (online USA)
Lee Michaels wrote:
"dpb" wrote Swingman wrote: ... It's pretty simple in this age of corporate greed ... I submit "corporate greed" is simply a reflection of the consumer choosing price over quality in the most part... Yes, you could argue that. But I submit that quality is often not even available locally and in many venues. If corporate greed was not a factor, this would not be the case. However you look at it, a lot of scumbags make decisions that make it harder for the rest of us. And I don't want to hear the pure economic model crap either. If mega corps really gave a damn about us, quality products would be available right along the low priced consumer crap. You know the *******s are winning when you can't even buy good fasteners locally. Quality products are readily available. You just have to find them and be willing to pay the price. For fasteners, most cities of any size have several suppliers who deal in nothing but fasteners and the tools to install them, and those suppliers can get you just about anything that you want. But they are not "home centers" or mom-and-pop hardware stores. Now, how does "corporate greed" result in local businesses choosing not to stock what you consider to be "good fasteners"? Is it your contention that the decision is the result of lack of availability? If so, then planes should be falling out of the sky every day due to fastener failure. -- -- --John to email, dial "usenet" and validate (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) |
Buy wood screw assortment packs? (online USA)
On Tue, 03 Jul 2007 08:09:20 -0500, dpb wrote:
Frank Boettcher wrote: On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 12:24:27 -0500, dpb wrote: Frank Boettcher wrote: On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 09:14:47 -0500, dpb wrote: Swingman wrote: ... It's pretty simple in this age of corporate greed ... I submit "corporate greed" is simply a reflection of the consumer choosing price over quality in the most part... I would respectfully disagree. In many, I would say most, cases corporate greed is the driver to decisions that will reduce the quality of the product when in fact there is perfectly good demand and profit in the higher quality product. It is not the goal of the corporation to reduce the quality, simply the outcome. The goal is to make ten more points of profit margin because, you the consumer, don't know any better anyway. In many cases, the consumer does not get a choice or the higher end choice becomes harder and harder to find. And the big retailers are partners in this effort. They tell the manufacturer's brand managers, hey you get it from China at a dirt cheap price or you will lose your shelf space, and we'll develop our own store brand and get it from China ourselves. It's true corporations are motivated to improve profit margins -- that's their job. Their job is to do the will of the owners. If the owners by weight are investors who are mostly interested in reasonable growth, dividend income, and long term continuity, then what they do by risking that for quick profits is a legal crime. It is done because their personal compensation is based stock appreciation in the short term. Whether management for short term stock price targets is a crime is surely debatable at best. Whether it is or isn't a wise management practice is a different question, of course. The problem tends to revolve around Boards of Directors who take too passive of a role in oversight imo, and I won't disagree about compensation plans that tend to reward poor behavior. But, overall, the problems are deeper-rooted and ultimately for retail most noticeably, driven by the competitive markets. IF we have a point of contention it has to do with the "chicken and the egg" You seem to think this is consumer driven. My point is that consumers, particularly those that might follow a forum like this, many high end hobbiests or professional woodworkers, are not storming the board rooms screaming that they want to save five or ten percent on products that will make the corporation much more than that and that they are willing to take poor quality for that savings. It is the corporations that drive the reduction in quality, put it out there for you to buy, and make finding a high quality alternative difficult by, in collaboration with the large retailers, snapping up all the shelf space. At least that is my opinion. The "Corporate Greed" comes to bear when they are already profitable, have a loyal customer base that depends on the quality of the product that they supply, but feel they can squeese out a little more by taking it to a quality risky offshore source. They are not doing this to "survive". Frank |
Buy wood screw assortment packs? (online USA)
Frank Boettcher wrote:
.... You seem to think this is consumer driven. My point is that consumers, particularly those that might follow a forum like this, many high end hobbiests or professional woodworkers, are not storming the board rooms screaming that they want to save five or ten percent on products that will make the corporation much more than that and that they are willing to take poor quality for that savings. I don't "think" it is consumer driven, I observe that it is... The election is made by the choice at where the dollars are being spent. The surest way to get the box stores to go away is for the crowds that frequent them to go someplace else. Until they do, they won't. It is the corporations that drive the reduction in quality, put it out there for you to buy, and make finding a high quality alternative difficult by, in collaboration with the large retailers, snapping up all the shelf space. At least that is my opinion. The "Corporate Greed" comes to bear when they are already profitable, have a loyal customer base that depends on the quality of the product that they supply, but feel they can squeese out a little more by taking it to a quality risky offshore source. They are not doing this to "survive". Oh, but au contraire... :( Were it but true. In general, the "loyal customer base" is loyal until the next bid cycle goes out and a competitor comes in with a price a nickel lower. The few (if any) who really would be loyal simply are not enough except in very rare instances to even maintain a business what more grow it. It is definitely true in all consumer/retail goods (which is what I'd estimate at least 70-80+% of the participants here are familiar with) as opposed to "true" industrial supply. But, even in that environment, an example -- Have a very good friend who is an engineer whose expertise is in management of casting foundries. Have known him for almost 40 years now. In that time he has gone from the small, family-owned independent single-supplier/customer mills (brake castings, etc., for Ford, GM, Chrysler, etc.), to the Japanese-owned multi-facilities under consolidated ownership as the industry has changed. One of his former facilities makes high-precision castings for the electrical transmission field amongst other things. For almost 75 years, this particular company/mill had about 75% of the US market. Over the last 10 years this has dropped to less than 50% owing to--you guessed it! Chinese imports taking business from their "loyal" customers. Quality is as good as theirs, price is competitive, but the differential is something they can't match and produce in the US. So much for "loyalty". :( Their niche now is in fast turnaround but large bulk routine product is now coming from suppliers to them from overseas. Needless to say, this isn't a choice they have made on their own. Their revenues are roughly equivalent but margins are _way_ down. Revenues are helped significantly in the present market climate by the huge expansion in generation capabilities in China and India and the ensuing infrastructure expansion. When that slows as it eventually will, it's anybody's guess as to what their future holds. At present it certainly doesn't look rosy for the long term unless/until they find new markets/products. It IS a global economy for good or ill and wishing it weren't isn't going to make it so. In the long run it will probably work out for the better. In the short run, there's going to be yet more upheaval and restructuring. But, unless there is a _MAJOR_ shift in the US publics' buying habits, the days of the box stores and all seem ahead of them... IMO, ymmv, $0.02, etc., etc., etc., ... -- |
Buy wood screw assortment packs? (online USA)
On Tue, 03 Jul 2007 13:14:06 -0500, dpb wrote:
Frank Boettcher wrote: ... You seem to think this is consumer driven. My point is that consumers, particularly those that might follow a forum like this, many high end hobbiests or professional woodworkers, are not storming the board rooms screaming that they want to save five or ten percent on products that will make the corporation much more than that and that they are willing to take poor quality for that savings. I don't "think" it is consumer driven, I observe that it is... so those end users, and that's what we are talking about, are storming the boardrooms. Funny, I never noticed them. I do see them on the aisles, buying what is put out in front of them cuz that's all there is. The election is made by the choice at where the dollars are being spent. The surest way to get the box stores to go away is for the crowds that frequent them to go someplace else. Until they do, they won't. Key word, choice. In many cases there is none. It is the corporations that drive the reduction in quality, put it out there for you to buy, and make finding a high quality alternative difficult by, in collaboration with the large retailers, snapping up all the shelf space. At least that is my opinion. The "Corporate Greed" comes to bear when they are already profitable, have a loyal customer base that depends on the quality of the product that they supply, but feel they can squeese out a little more by taking it to a quality risky offshore source. They are not doing this to "survive". Oh, but au contraire... :( Were it but true. In general, the "loyal customer base" is loyal until the next bid cycle goes out and a competitor comes in with a price a nickel lower. The few (if any) who really would be loyal simply are not enough except in very rare instances to even maintain a business what more grow it. You seem to have shifted from the end user consumer to the wholesale or manufacturing buyer. There doing what their corporate "leaders" are telling them to do. That is not what we are discussing. You're making my point. The consumer is not driving it, just swept along in many cases. It is definitely true in all consumer/retail goods (which is what I'd estimate at least 70-80+% of the participants here are familiar with) as opposed to "true" industrial supply. But, even in that environment, an example -- Have a very good friend who is an engineer whose expertise is in management of casting foundries. Have known him for almost 40 years now. In that time he has gone from the small, family-owned independent single-supplier/customer mills (brake castings, etc., for Ford, GM, Chrysler, etc.), to the Japanese-owned multi-facilities under consolidated ownership as the industry has changed. One of his former facilities makes high-precision castings for the electrical transmission field amongst other things. For almost 75 years, this particular company/mill had about 75% of the US market. Over the last 10 years this has dropped to less than 50% owing to--you guessed it! Chinese imports taking business from their "loyal" customers. Quality is as good as theirs, price is competitive, but the differential is something they can't match and produce in the US. So much for "loyalty". :( I feel for your friend, and I don't know what kind of castings he makes. I have extensive experience in gray iron, machined. There is no doubt in my mind that the Chinese quality is significantly lower. I've had an opportunity to review extensive capability studies on Chinese foundries. When the same class 25 iron part that I was buying from domestic foundries with a Brinnell hardness range of 190-205 (just right for both machining and grinding) comes from China with a range of 140-240 (low end a disaster for strength and grinding, high end to brittle and a nightmare for machining) with chill spots, sand occlusions, parting line shifts, questionable chemistry, terrible mechanical properties, etc, etc....and unable to get to stastical capability on dimensions, I know it is so. But they get used, and the machines are not as good. But you continue to make my point. Not one of the end user customers said "give me that chinese iron and a 10% price break.. I can't wait for that. But I heard many times, "what are you doing to the product, you're screwing it up. It is the Corporate "leaders" that are saying, "hey our customers won't know any difference, let's use the junk. Their niche now is in fast turnaround but large bulk routine product is now coming from suppliers to them from overseas. Needless to say, this isn't a choice they have made on their own. Their revenues are roughly equivalent but margins are _way_ down. Revenues are helped significantly in the present market climate by the huge expansion in generation capabilities in China and India and the ensuing infrastructure expansion. When that slows as it eventually will, it's anybody's guess as to what their future holds. At present it certainly doesn't look rosy for the long term unless/until they find new markets/products. Once again, the customers your refer to are not end user consumers, but manufacturers (corporations) that are demanding that switch. It IS a global economy for good or ill and wishing it weren't isn't going to make it so. In the long run it will probably work out for the better. In the short run, there's going to be yet more upheaval and restructuring. But, unless there is a _MAJOR_ shift in the US publics' buying habits, the days of the box stores and all seem ahead of them... I agree. But I still feel it is corporate greed that is the driver, not the consumer out there saying that is what I want. Frank IMO, ymmv, $0.02, etc., etc., etc., .. |
Buy wood screw assortment packs? (online USA)
Frank Boettcher wrote:
Key word, choice. In many cases there is none. Rubbish, there is always a choice. Don't like the quality, don't buy. Don't like the price, don't buy. Keep your dick skinners wrapped tightly around you wallet and wait. He who has the gold is in control. I've yet to see something for sale I couldn't walk away from. Too many years dealing with some tough contractors I guess. Lew |
Buy wood screw assortment packs? (online USA)
"J. Clarke" jclarke.usenet cox.net wrote:
Lee Michaels wrote: "dpb" none non.net wrote Swingman wrote: ... It's pretty simple in this age of corporate greed ... I submit "corporate greed" is simply a reflection of the consumer choosing price over quality in the most part... Yes, you could argue that. But I submit that quality is often not even available locally and in many venues. If corporate greed was not a factor, this would not be the case. However you look at it, a lot of scumbags make decisions that make it harder for the rest of us. And I don't want to hear the pure economic model crap either. If mega corps really gave a damn about us, quality products would be available right along the low priced consumer crap. You know the *******s are winning when you can't even buy good fasteners locally. Now, how does "corporate greed" result in local businesses choosing not to stock what you consider to be "good fasteners"? Is it your contention that the decision is the result of lack of availability? That lack of availability driving the price sky high. If so, then planes should be falling out of the sky every day due to fastener failure. Nope. Big companies that make planes can get whatever they want. It's like Windows. Ordinary consumers are stuck under Microsoft's thumb, but Window's dominance was stopped before it reached the corporate server market level. -- -- --John to email, dial "usenet" and validate (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) Path: newssvr29.news.prodigy.net!newsdbm05.news.prodigy. net!newsdst01.news.prodigy.net!prodigy.com!newscon 04.news.prodigy.net!prodigy.net!newshub.sdsu.edu!s pln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news2 From: "J. Clarke" jclarke.usenet cox.net Newsgroups: rec.woodworking Subject: Buy wood screw assortment packs? (online USA) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 09:55:15 -0400 Organization: NewsGuy - Unlimited Usenet $19.95 Lines: 44 Message-ID: f6dkpm0289d news2.newsguy.com References: 1u1ii.8614$bP5.2943 newssvr19.news.prodigy.net 4688aecb$0$97216$892e7fe2 authen.yellow.readfreenews.net gX2ii.13423$vi5.11386 newssvr17.news.prodigy.net 1183382958.130041.92920 w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com U6mdnTxXD6uinxTbnZ2dnUVZ_g2dnZ2d giganews.com f6b1bb$2ir$1 aioe.org Ze6dnf2E2PlDlxTbnZ2dnUVZ_vWtnZ2d comcast.com NNTP-Posting-Host: p04d1bfbfff00000002d4cd74f48f755c4a8e4bafb83806e5. newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: Ze6dnf2E2PlDlxTbnZ2dnUVZ_vWtnZ2d comcast.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6000.16386 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6000.16386 User-Agent: Hamster-Pg/1.13 Xref: prodigy.net rec.woodworking:1365117 |
Buy wood screw assortment packs? (online USA)
On Jul 2, 7:42 pm, Peter Huebner wrote:
In article .com, says... Probably better to buy screws by the hundred box as you need them. What surprised me at first was, how a box of 1000 usually only costs as much as 2 or 3 100-packs. What surprised me even more was how quickly they're gone ;-) Those 'self-counter-sinking' screws are fine in plywood and softwood but I don't like using them with MDF since they often throw up a ridge around the head, so I use a countersink bit regardless. They don't work in hard wood. And they stink for screwing on metal hardware. Ironically, screws that don't have the ridges are harder to get in these parts now - I often have to put in a special order for them. I use stainless with square drive almost exclusively these days. Price difference is negligible in bulk amounts. -P. -- ========================================= firstname dot lastname at gmail fullstop com Since this thread is wandering a bit off the OP's topic I will add one more story. A good many years ago I started a small cabinet making business after a career as an engineer. I bought the new tools I needed from a small shop who carried professional quality tools, supplies and provided sharpening services. He eventually focused solely on sharpening and told me that the BORG was selling tools for less than he had to pay at wholesale. Joe G |
Buy wood screw assortment packs? (online USA)
John Doe wrote:
.... ... Ordinary consumers are stuck under Microsoft's thumb, .... How's that? There's Mac, multiple flavors of Unix and even free flavors of Linux, et al., ... -- |
Buy wood screw assortment packs? (online USA)
Frank Boettcher wrote:
On Tue, 03 Jul 2007 13:14:06 -0500, dpb wrote: Frank Boettcher wrote: ... You seem to think this is consumer driven. My point is that consumers, particularly those that might follow a forum like this, many high end hobbiests or professional woodworkers, are not storming the board rooms screaming that they want to save five or ten percent on products that will make the corporation much more than that and that they are willing to take poor quality for that savings. I don't "think" it is consumer driven, I observe that it is... so those end users, and that's what we are talking about, are storming the boardrooms. Funny, I never noticed them. I do see them on the aisles, buying what is put out in front of them cuz that's all there is. The election is made by the choice at where the dollars are being spent. The surest way to get the box stores to go away is for the crowds that frequent them to go someplace else. Until they do, they won't. Key word, choice. In many cases there is none. There is _always_ some. It may not be the most convenient, but that's part of the equation of choice. It is the corporations that drive the reduction in quality, put it out there for you to buy, and make finding a high quality alternative difficult by, in collaboration with the large retailers, snapping up all the shelf space. At least that is my opinion. The "Corporate Greed" comes to bear when they are already profitable, have a loyal customer base that depends on the quality of the product that they supply, but feel they can squeese out a little more by taking it to a quality risky offshore source. They are not doing this to "survive". Oh, but au contraire... :( Were it but true. In general, the "loyal customer base" is loyal until the next bid cycle goes out and a competitor comes in with a price a nickel lower. The few (if any) who really would be loyal simply are not enough except in very rare instances to even maintain a business what more grow it. You seem to have shifted from the end user consumer to the wholesale or manufacturing buyer. There doing what their corporate "leaders" are telling them to do. That is not what we are discussing. You're making my point. The consumer is not driving it, just swept along in many cases. But I was making a point that competition is keen and if they don't compete, sheer customer loyalty is a false hope. .... I feel for your friend, and I don't know what kind of castings he makes. I have extensive experience in gray iron, machined. There is no doubt in my mind that the Chinese quality is significantly lower. I've had an opportunity to review extensive capability studies on Chinese foundries. When the same class 25 iron part that I was buying from domestic foundries with a Brinnell hardness range of 190-205 (just right for both machining and grinding) comes from China with a range of 140-240 (low end a disaster for strength and grinding, high end to brittle and a nightmare for machining) with chill spots, sand occlusions, parting line shifts, questionable chemistry, terrible mechanical properties, etc, etc....and unable to get to stastical capability on dimensions, I know it is so. But they get used, and the machines are not as good. There's no point if feeling sorry for him and that wasn't the point. He has since moved on back to a smaller foundry. The particular product in that case were connections for large very high voltage distribution lines. The Chinese _can_ make very high quality product if you specify it and control it. In order to do so you'll probably have to invest your own time and expertise on site to gain it, but many are finding that profitable. But you continue to make my point. Not one of the end user customers said "give me that chinese iron and a 10% price break.. I can't wait for that. But I heard many times, "what are you doing to the product, you're screwing it up. It is the Corporate "leaders" that are saying, "hey our customers won't know any difference, let's use the junk. In your particular instance, maybe they have chosen to go after a lower market and left the high end behind. Or, maybe like you say, management has made a bad choice. If so, and their customers don't like it, they soon won't be customers and the company will either change its product, its target customer, or go away. That's competition. Ugly, but real. .... Once again, the customers your refer to are not end user consumers, But they _are_ the end user customers and they're simply being rational consumers. They found another supplier of equivalent (or at least adequate) quality/performance and chose them over their previous supplier on the basis of cost. .... I agree. But I still feel it is corporate greed that is the driver, not the consumer out there saying that is what I want. Then why is Walmart the bane of the local high end shop in Anytown, USA? -- |
Buy wood screw assortment packs? (online USA)
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