Frank Boettcher wrote:
On Tue, 03 Jul 2007 13:14:06 -0500, dpb wrote:

Frank Boettcher wrote:
...

You seem to think this is consumer driven. My point is that
consumers, particularly those that might follow a forum like this,
many high end hobbiests or professional woodworkers, are not storming
the board rooms screaming that they want to save five or ten percent
on products that will make the corporation much more than that and
that they are willing to take poor quality for that savings.
I don't "think" it is consumer driven, I observe that it is...

so those end users, and that's what we are talking about, are storming
the boardrooms. Funny, I never noticed them. I do see them on the
aisles, buying what is put out in front of them cuz that's all there
is.


The election is made by the choice at where the dollars are being spent.
The surest way to get the box stores to go away is for the crowds that
frequent them to go someplace else. Until they do, they won't.

Key word, choice. In many cases there is none.

There is _always_ some. It may not be the most convenient, but that's
part of the equation of choice.

It is the corporations that drive the reduction in quality, put it out
there for you to buy, and make finding a high quality alternative
difficult by, in collaboration with the large retailers, snapping up
all the shelf space. At least that is my opinion.

The "Corporate Greed" comes to bear when they are already profitable,
have a loyal customer base that depends on the quality of the product
that they supply, but feel they can squeese out a little more by
taking it to a quality risky offshore source. They are not doing this
to "survive".
Oh, but au contraire... Were it but true. In general, the "loyal
customer base" is loyal until the next bid cycle goes out and a
competitor comes in with a price a nickel lower. The few (if any) who
really would be loyal simply are not enough except in very rare
instances to even maintain a business what more grow it.

You seem to have shifted from the end user consumer to the wholesale
or manufacturing buyer. There doing what their corporate "leaders" are
telling them to do. That is not what we are discussing. You're
making my point. The consumer is not driving it, just swept along in
many cases.

But I was making a point that competition is keen and if they don't
compete, sheer customer loyalty is a false hope.

....

I feel for your friend, and I don't know what kind of castings he
makes. I have extensive experience in gray iron, machined. There is
no doubt in my mind that the Chinese quality is significantly lower.
I've had an opportunity to review extensive capability studies on
Chinese foundries. When the same class 25 iron part that I was buying
from domestic foundries with a Brinnell hardness range of 190-205
(just right for both machining and grinding) comes from China with a
range of 140-240 (low end a disaster for strength and grinding, high
end to brittle and a nightmare for machining) with chill spots, sand
occlusions, parting line shifts, questionable chemistry, terrible
mechanical properties, etc, etc....and unable to get to stastical
capability on dimensions, I know it is so.

But they get used, and the machines are not as good.

There's no point if feeling sorry for him and that wasn't the point. He
has since moved on back to a smaller foundry. The particular product in
that case were connections for large very high voltage distribution lines.

The Chinese _can_ make very high quality product if you specify it and
control it. In order to do so you'll probably have to invest your own
time and expertise on site to gain it, but many are finding that profitable.

But you continue to make my point. Not one of the end user customers
said "give me that chinese iron and a 10% price break.. I can't wait
for that. But I heard many times, "what are you doing to the product,
you're screwing it up. It is the Corporate "leaders" that are
saying, "hey our customers won't know any difference, let's use the
junk.

In your particular instance, maybe they have chosen to go after a lower
market and left the high end behind. Or, maybe like you say, management
has made a bad choice. If so, and their customers don't like it, they
soon won't be customers and the company will either change its product,
its target customer, or go away. That's competition. Ugly, but real.

....

Once again, the customers your refer to are not end user consumers,

But they _are_ the end user customers and they're simply being rational
consumers. They found another supplier of equivalent (or at least
adequate) quality/performance and chose them over their previous
supplier on the basis of cost.

....

I agree. But I still feel it is corporate greed that is the driver,
not the consumer out there saying that is what I want.

Then why is Walmart the bane of the local high end shop in Anytown, USA?

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