GROVER wrote:

....

Since this thread is wandering a bit off the OP's topic

This is where Ignore Subthread really shines, especially if the
particular branch has gone completely off topic and you're the
original poster looking for enlightenment.

I guess some people can remember without opening the next post in a
particular thread branch, but not me.

Thanks, and have fun.











I will add one more story. A good many years ago I started a small
cabinet making business after a career as an engineer. I bought the
new tools I needed from a small shop who carried professional
quality tools, supplies and provided sharpening services. He
eventually focused solely on sharpening and told me that the BORG
was selling tools for less than he had to pay at wholesale. Joe G

On Tue, 03 Jul 2007 16:16:13 -0500, dpb wrote:

Frank Boettcher wrote:
On Tue, 03 Jul 2007 13:14:06 -0500, dpb wrote:

Frank Boettcher wrote:
...

You seem to think this is consumer driven. My point is that
consumers, particularly those that might follow a forum like this,
many high end hobbiests or professional woodworkers, are not storming
the board rooms screaming that they want to save five or ten percent
on products that will make the corporation much more than that and
that they are willing to take poor quality for that savings.
I don't "think" it is consumer driven, I observe that it is...

so those end users, and that's what we are talking about, are storming
the boardrooms. Funny, I never noticed them. I do see them on the
aisles, buying what is put out in front of them cuz that's all there
is.


The election is made by the choice at where the dollars are being spent.
The surest way to get the box stores to go away is for the crowds that
frequent them to go someplace else. Until they do, they won't.

Key word, choice. In many cases there is none.

There is _always_ some. It may not be the most convenient, but that's
part of the equation of choice.

It is the corporations that drive the reduction in quality, put it out
there for you to buy, and make finding a high quality alternative
difficult by, in collaboration with the large retailers, snapping up
all the shelf space. At least that is my opinion.

The "Corporate Greed" comes to bear when they are already profitable,
have a loyal customer base that depends on the quality of the product
that they supply, but feel they can squeese out a little more by
taking it to a quality risky offshore source. They are not doing this
to "survive".
Oh, but au contraire... Were it but true. In general, the "loyal
customer base" is loyal until the next bid cycle goes out and a
competitor comes in with a price a nickel lower. The few (if any) who
really would be loyal simply are not enough except in very rare
instances to even maintain a business what more grow it.

You seem to have shifted from the end user consumer to the wholesale
or manufacturing buyer. There doing what their corporate "leaders" are
telling them to do. That is not what we are discussing. You're
making my point. The consumer is not driving it, just swept along in
many cases.

But I was making a point that competition is keen and if they don't
compete, sheer customer loyalty is a false hope.

...

I feel for your friend, and I don't know what kind of castings he
makes. I have extensive experience in gray iron, machined. There is
no doubt in my mind that the Chinese quality is significantly lower.
I've had an opportunity to review extensive capability studies on
Chinese foundries. When the same class 25 iron part that I was buying
from domestic foundries with a Brinnell hardness range of 190-205
(just right for both machining and grinding) comes from China with a
range of 140-240 (low end a disaster for strength and grinding, high
end to brittle and a nightmare for machining) with chill spots, sand
occlusions, parting line shifts, questionable chemistry, terrible
mechanical properties, etc, etc....and unable to get to stastical
capability on dimensions, I know it is so.

But they get used, and the machines are not as good.

There's no point if feeling sorry for him and that wasn't the point. He
has since moved on back to a smaller foundry. The particular product in
that case were connections for large very high voltage distribution lines.

The Chinese _can_ make very high quality product if you specify it and
control it. In order to do so you'll probably have to invest your own
time and expertise on site to gain it, but many are finding that profitable.

You make a statement like that like you have been there and done that.
Have you? If so please elaborate on your personal experience or are
you just going by what you google. I always like to know with whom
I'm debating a point. Often establishes credibility.

And by the way, I understand there are good prices on tires coming
from China you might want to put your family on if you have that type
of confidence. I can hardly hear from the uproar of end user
consumers that are clamoring for those tires to put on their cars.
They may save ten bucks or so and they can hardly wait.

Either way, I rest my case. My point is that the END USER CONSUMER is
not driving the headlong rush to lower quality products that would be
used by people who would be on this forum or their peers. that was
the original premise that you disagreed with.

Those that have not fallen asleep from this thread may decide for
themselves.

Have a nice fourth.

Frank



But you continue to make my point. Not one of the end user customers
said "give me that chinese iron and a 10% price break.. I can't wait
for that. But I heard many times, "what are you doing to the product,
you're screwing it up. It is the Corporate "leaders" that are
saying, "hey our customers won't know any difference, let's use the
junk.

In your particular instance, maybe they have chosen to go after a lower
market and left the high end behind. Or, maybe like you say, management
has made a bad choice. If so, and their customers don't like it, they
soon won't be customers and the company will either change its product,
its target customer, or go away. That's competition. Ugly, but real.

...

Once again, the customers your refer to are not end user consumers,

But they _are_ the end user customers and they're simply being rational
consumers. They found another supplier of equivalent (or at least
adequate) quality/performance and chose them over their previous
supplier on the basis of cost.

...

I agree. But I still feel it is corporate greed that is the driver,
not the consumer out there saying that is what I want.

Then why is Walmart the bane of the local high end shop in Anytown, USA?

Frank Boettcher wrote:
On Tue, 03 Jul 2007 16:16:13 -0500, dpb wrote:
....

The Chinese _can_ make very high quality product if you specify it and
control it. In order to do so you'll probably have to invest your own
time and expertise on site to gain it, but many are finding that profitable.

You make a statement like that like you have been there and done that.
Have you? If so please elaborate on your personal experience or are
you just going by what you google. I always like to know with whom
I'm debating a point. Often establishes credibility.

I am not metallurgical, I'm nuclear and have been there for power
generation reasons. The knowledge of their foundry capabilities is from
the aforementioned friend who has been (and continues to be) a manager
and chief engineer at various foundries on his experience and the (also
aforementioned) company's experience in shift much of the production to
China. He spent months there every year for about six or seven working
out the transition, etc. The extensive travel was a major factor in
leaving them for his present position. It wasn't easy, but it did
succeed (eventually).

And by the way, I understand there are good prices on tires coming
from China you might want to put your family on if you have that type
of confidence. I can hardly hear from the uproar of end user
consumers that are clamoring for those tires to put on their cars.
They may save ten bucks or so and they can hardly wait.

Actually, they are (clamoring for $10 savings, that is). A warehouse
opened up here just the other day and some of their initial stock was,
am I told, some of these imports.

As noted previously, there seems to be no end to the demand for "cheap"
amongst the bulk of the buying public.

What you and I choose as individuals has little overall effect -- now if
you could convince two of your buddies, and each of them two of theirs,
and so on...


Either way, I rest my case. My point is that the END USER CONSUMER is
not driving the headlong rush to lower quality products that would be
used by people who would be on this forum or their peers. that was
the original premise that you disagreed with.

I still disagree in that I think the bulk of the readership of r.w is
just casual joe's, not much different in habits than the overall
population...

--

Patriarch wrote:

....

www.mcfeeleys.com

I like their simple/clear illustrations.
Bought a zinc plated #8 assortment (that includes a required
squarehead screw bit and screwdriver) and a 1/8" x 3/8" countersink
thingy. Shipping was only $7.50 (US) so I passed on the unplated screw
assortment pack. Yada yada yada.

I've noticed square drill bits at the hardware store lately.

Mostly off-topic, and for what it's worth. I like the point choices of
their "security" screw bit assortment pack, but looks like the screw
bits fit into a magnetic holder. Seems to me most of the problem
fasteners are recessed in a narrow hole. Currently, I have a set of
thin torx screwdrivers. Would like some of those two point type screw
bits too, but on the end of narrow shafts. And then maybe an
assortment of star drive stuff. Maybe some day. At least square
bits/tips are easy to understand

Have fun... see you later.











Patriarch

dpb wrote in :

John Doe wrote:
...

... Ordinary consumers are stuck under Microsoft's thumb,
...

How's that? There's Mac, multiple flavors of Unix and even free flavors
of Linux, et al., ...

--

There is now. For a while, it was touch and go and grumble. The court
fight was something to behold, but there were certainly those who lost
heavily in the battles.

Patriarch

Patriarch wrote:
dpb wrote in :

John Doe wrote:
...

... Ordinary consumers are stuck under Microsoft's thumb,
...

How's that? There's Mac, multiple flavors of Unix and even free flavors
of Linux, et al., ...

--

There is now. For a while, it was touch and go and grumble. The court
fight was something to behold, but there were certainly those who lost
heavily in the battles.

There were always alternatives and I personally don't think it was ever
in doubt there would be...

imo, etc., ...

--

John Doe wrote:
"J. Clarke" jclarke.usenet cox.net wrote:

Lee Michaels wrote:
"dpb" none non.net wrote

Swingman wrote:
...

It's pretty simple in this age of corporate greed ...

I submit "corporate greed" is simply a reflection of the consumer
choosing price over quality in the most part...

Yes, you could argue that.

But I submit that quality is often not even available locally and
in many venues. If corporate greed was not a factor, this would
not be the case. However you look at it, a lot of scumbags make
decisions that make it harder for the rest of us.

And I don't want to hear the pure economic model crap either. If
mega corps really gave a damn about us, quality products would be
available right along the low priced consumer crap. You know the
*******s are winning when you can't even buy good fasteners
locally.

Now, how does "corporate greed" result in local businesses choosing
not to stock what you consider to be "good fasteners"? Is it your
contention that the decision is the result of lack of availability?

That lack of availability driving the price sky high.

Or maybe the cost of producing fasteners at the quality level you demand
is what drives the price?

If so, then planes should be falling out of the sky every day due to
fastener failure.

Nope. Big companies that make planes can get whatever they want.

Which means that the fasteners _are_ available. Or are you now claiming
some global conspiracy in which the aircraft manufacturers are in
cahoots with the fastener manufacturers to prevent anybody but aircraft
manufacturers from obtaining the fasteners that the aircraft
manufacturers use?

It's
like Windows. Ordinary consumers are stuck under Microsoft's thumb,
but Window's dominance was stopped before it reached the corporate
server market level.

You mean that Linux ceased to exist? I must have missed another memo.
I'm sorry, but nobody is forcing you to use Windows. If you can't find
an alternative, it's because you aren't looking very hard, same as for
fasteners.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)




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From: "J. Clarke" jclarke.usenet cox.net
Newsgroups: rec.woodworking
Subject: Buy wood screw assortment packs? (online USA)
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--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Patriarch wrote:
dpb wrote in :

John Doe wrote:
...

... Ordinary consumers are stuck under Microsoft's thumb,
...

How's that? There's Mac, multiple flavors of Unix and even free
flavors of Linux, et al., ...

--

There is now. For a while, it was touch and go and grumble. The
court fight was something to behold, but there were certainly those
who lost heavily in the battles.

I don't recall this "court fight" over Linux.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

dpb wrote in :

Patriarch wrote:
dpb wrote in :

John Doe wrote:
...

... Ordinary consumers are stuck under Microsoft's thumb,
...

How's that? There's Mac, multiple flavors of Unix and even free
flavors of Linux, et al., ...

--

There is now. For a while, it was touch and go and grumble. The
court fight was something to behold, but there were certainly those
who lost heavily in the battles.

There were always alternatives and I personally don't think it was
ever in doubt there would be...

imo, etc., ...

--


Yes, there were alternatives. But some of the ways that the pricing was
set, buyers, even of just main boards, still ended up paying for a copy of
Windows...

Many things have changed. But not all.

Patriarch

Patriarch wrote:
dpb wrote in :

Patriarch wrote:
dpb wrote in :

John Doe wrote:
...

... Ordinary consumers are stuck under Microsoft's thumb,
...

How's that? There's Mac, multiple flavors of Unix and even free
flavors of Linux, et al., ...

--

There is now. For a while, it was touch and go and grumble. The
court fight was something to behold, but there were certainly those
who lost heavily in the battles.

There were always alternatives and I personally don't think it was
ever in doubt there would be...

imo, etc., ...

--


Yes, there were alternatives. But some of the ways that the pricing
was set, buyers, even of just main boards, still ended up paying for
a copy of Windows...

Which doesn't mean that you're obligated to use it.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

In article et,
says...
Frank Boettcher wrote:

Key word, choice. In many cases there is none.

Rubbish, there is always a choice.


Not really, the entire ideal free market model is predicated on
willing buyers and sellers with perfect knowledge of price and
quality.

Don't like the quality, don't buy.

Consumers don't *know* the quality until after they buy. They
might not buy from that store in the future after they've been
burned a few times, but how many screws does the average person
buy in a lifetime? A company that is using thousands of them
every day can afford to hire a professional screw-buyer and subject
the screws to quality tests, etc. Joe Weekendwoodworker doesn't
have the time or resources, and the BORGs know this and take
advantage.

Don't like the price, don't buy.

I'm not going to drive 30 miles and check prices in 5 different
stores before buying a couple dozen screws.



Keep your dick skinners wrapped tightly around you wallet and wait.

He who has the gold is in control.

I've yet to see something for sale I couldn't walk away from.


So it's Saturday morning, I've got a project to complete, I don't
to blow the day chasing after some needed supplies, so I'm going to
the nearest hardware store, hope they have the right size and they
aren't complete crap, and buy them. Maybe I could have got better
quality online, but they won't get here until Thursday. Maybe they
would be 4 cents cheaper, but I have to pay $8 shipping for $5 worth
of screws. Multiply by a few hundred million and that's why there
is a payoff for corporations to reduce quality. Nobody gets ripped
off for their entire life savings (unless you buy stock in the
company), everybody gets to pay 10% less for 25% lower quality, and
it's almost never worth fighting back. (Are you going to return the
stripped screws and try to get a refund? No, at most you'll just try
to remember which store and which brand, and get different ones next
time, if you can find better, and you aren't in a rush, and they don't
all come from the same factory in some 3rd world country no matter
where you get them and be happy that you bought a box of 50 when you
only needed 25 because you only have 5 left.

Too many years dealing with some tough contractors I guess.


If you're dealing with contractors, you're probably doing this for
a living, not just some average consumer who is spending .000001%
of his annual income on screws.


Lew



--
John

J. Clarke wrote:

There is now. For a while, it was touch and go and grumble. The
court fight was something to behold, but there were certainly those
who lost heavily in the battles.

I don't recall this "court fight" over Linux.


SCO ... and, lately, the 800 pound gorilla has been making some rumbling
noises again.

--
I'm not not at the above address.
http://nmwoodworks.com


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J. Clarke wrote:


It's
like Windows. Ordinary consumers are stuck under Microsoft's thumb,
but Window's dominance was stopped before it reached the corporate
server market level.

You mean that Linux ceased to exist? I must have missed another memo.
I'm sorry, but nobody is forcing you to use Windows. If you can't find
an alternative, it's because you aren't looking very hard, same as for
fasteners.


Having already paid for it, so long as Windows works 'well enough' (tm),
there is little incentive to just pitch it and try something else.

I've been a Linux user for several (10+) years. But I've never pulled
Windows off a machine before it fell apart on its own.

Nor have I ever re-installed it. Ain't happenin' Jack.

Bill


--
I'm not not at the above address.
http://nmwoodworks.com


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John Santos wrote:

Not really, the entire ideal free market model is predicated on
willing buyers and sellers with perfect knowledge of price and
quality.

Who the hell said I'm willing?


Consumers don't *know* the quality until after they buy.

God point, but there is no free lunch.

A price too far from the norm (either high or low) is an indication of a
probable problem.

Don't like the price, don't buy.

I'm not going to drive 30 miles and check prices in 5 different
stores before buying a couple dozen screws.

I don't either, that's why UPS exists.

So it's Saturday morning, I've got a project to complete, I don't
to blow the day chasing after some needed supplies, so I'm going to
the nearest hardware store, hope they have the right size and they
aren't complete crap, and buy them.

Your lack of planning is your problem.G


If you're dealing with contractors, you're probably doing this for
a living, not just some average consumer who is spending .000001%
of his annual income on screws.

My days of dealing with contractors are long gone; however, years spent
as a working design engineer as well as lots of window shopping as a
young kid because I couldn't afford to buy the stuff in the window,
teaches you to be a prudent steward of ones available resources.

Lew

BillinDetroit wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:

There is now. For a while, it was touch and go and grumble. The
court fight was something to behold, but there were certainly those
who lost heavily in the battles.

I don't recall this "court fight" over Linux.


SCO ... and, lately, the 800 pound gorilla has been making some
rumbling noises again.

The SCO lawsuit seems to be suicide by lawyer--they were hoping IBM
would cave and give them a big settlement and it appears that IBM has
decided to hammer them into the ground instead.

As for Microsoft "rumbling", OIN is rumbling back, and it appears that
OIN can hurt Microsoft worse than Microsoft can hurt Linux.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

BillinDetroit wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:


It's
like Windows. Ordinary consumers are stuck under Microsoft's thumb,
but Window's dominance was stopped before it reached the corporate
server market level.

You mean that Linux ceased to exist? I must have missed another
memo. I'm sorry, but nobody is forcing you to use Windows. If you
can't find an alternative, it's because you aren't looking very
hard, same as for fasteners.


Having already paid for it, so long as Windows works 'well enough'
(tm), there is little incentive to just pitch it and try something
else.

Most people don't care whether they already paid for it. What matters
is that it's on the machine and works well enough so why mess with
anything else.

I've been a Linux user for several (10+) years. But I've never pulled
Windows off a machine before it fell apart on its own.

Nor have I ever re-installed it. Ain't happenin' Jack.

I've managed Unix shops and Windows shops and don't see a lot to choose
between them.

I don't let what came on the machine influence how I use it--I generally
ditch the bundled OS regardless, if there is a bundled OS.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

J. Clarke wrote:
BillinDetroit wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:

There is now. For a while, it was touch and go and grumble. The
court fight was something to behold, but there were certainly those
who lost heavily in the battles.
I don't recall this "court fight" over Linux.

SCO ... and, lately, the 800 pound gorilla has been making some
rumbling noises again.

The SCO lawsuit seems to be suicide by lawyer--they were hoping IBM
would cave and give them a big settlement and it appears that IBM has
decided to hammer them into the ground instead.

As for Microsoft "rumbling", OIN is rumbling back, and it appears that
OIN can hurt Microsoft worse than Microsoft can hurt Linux.


Agreed ... this should make for yet another interesting school yard scrap.

Bill
--
I'm not not at the above address.
http://nmwoodworks.com


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I wrote:

www.mcfeeleys.com

Bought a zinc plated #8 assortment (that includes a required
squarehead screw bit and screwdriver) and a 1/8" x 3/8" countersink
thingy. Shipping was only $7.50 (US) so I passed on the unplated
screw assortment pack.

Umm.

Both of the items ordered were listed as in stock. I do a lot of
online shopping, I never order backordered products. Even if any of
those products have been listed as backordered, they explicitly state
"McFeely's does not charge additional shipping for items that are
backordered."

I was told that the screws were backordered, but they immediately
charged for the entire order plus shipping.

Yesterday, McFeely's Square Drive Screws removed more money from my
bank account, a duplicate charge equal to part of the order plus
shipping.

Screwing with my bank account rubs me the wrong way.

Apparently you have to make sure that the parts are in stock by
calling or whatever. Anyway, the screws shipped today.

"Swingman" wrote:

....

to make objective judgments. Give them a try and your love affair
with Rockler screws will evaporate, guaranteed.

Dude... you're the one with the love affair. Personally, I prefer
having at least two choices I can live with.

John Doe wrote:

Dude... you're the one with the love affair. Personally, I prefer
having at least two choices I can live with.

When you get dry behind the ears, maybe you will know what to look for
when selecting a supplier.

Lew

"John Doe" opined

"Swingman" wrote:

...

to make objective judgments. Give them a try and your love affair
with Rockler screws will evaporate, guaranteed.

Dude... you're the one with the love affair. Personally, I prefer
having at least two choices I can live with.

If I need something quick and dirty, I can go to the big box stores and get
some that will work about half of the time.

If I need something that is quality and just right for the job, I go to an
industrial fastener house.

The thing that is interesting to me is that many people do not realize there
are such things as quality fasteners.