I bought an 18v Erbauer drill from Screwfix about 15 months ago.
It has been a superb tool. I've used it almost every weekend for
the past 15 months.

It's recently developed significant play, not in the chuck, but
in the motor-case mounting. I can't see anything broken, looks
like it has just worn loose.

When I bought it I paid ~£160, and it's now available for £140.

Other than this play, the drill still performs perfectly. I
don't think I've abused the drill, and I don't think it's been
dropped hard. It has had a lot of heavy use.

My dilemma is this - given that I've had lots of use from it,
can I reasonably expect it to be repaired/replaced under the two
year warranty?

I'm not asking whether they would - there's only one way of
finding that out. I'm asking if I would be reasonable to ask,
it's kind of an ethical thing. I don't believe in taking the
**** with my suppliers.

So, what do you think? How long should a £150+ cordless drill
last with heavy use?

TIA

--
Grunff

In uk.d-i-y, Grunff wrote:
I bought an 18v Erbauer drill from Screwfix about 15 months ago.
It has been a superb tool. I've used it almost every weekend for
the past 15 months.

So, definitely not heavy Trade use, though it's pretty much a premium
price item (150 quid, right)? And it's not been kicked about, carried
in the bottom of overladen cloth toolbags, or the like.

My dilemma is this - given that I've had lots of use from it,
can I reasonably expect it to be repaired/replaced under the two
year warranty?

I'm not asking whether they would - there's only one way of
finding that out. I'm asking if I would be reasonable to ask,
it's kind of an ethical thing. I don't believe in taking the
**** with my suppliers.

I think for an Erbauer at that price it's reasonable to ask (but
would be unreasonable to raise an enormous fuss if they turn you
down). For a Ferm it'd be taking the Michael; for a Makita, Atlas
Copco, or similar with the "less than a couple of days a week"
usage and kind treatment it'd definitely be a premature failure.

HTH, YMMV, OITMMBCTTA, etc - Stefek

wrote:

So, definitely not heavy Trade use, though it's pretty much a premium
price item (150 quid, right)? And it's not been kicked about, carried
in the bottom of overladen cloth toolbags, or the like.

Yeah, I paid £160, but they're at £140 now. Definitely not trade
use, just me at weekends, and definitely well taken care of.


I think for an Erbauer at that price it's reasonable to ask (but
would be unreasonable to raise an enormous fuss if they turn you
down). For a Ferm it'd be taking the Michael; for a Makita, Atlas
Copco, or similar with the "less than a couple of days a week"
usage and kind treatment it'd definitely be a premature failure.

HTH, YMMV, OITMMBCTTA, etc - Stefek

Thanks.

--
Grunff

"Grunff" wrote in message ...
I bought an 18v Erbauer drill from Screwfix about 15 months ago.
It has been a superb tool. I've used it almost every weekend for
the past 15 months.

It's recently developed significant play, not in the chuck, but
in the motor-case mounting. I can't see anything broken, looks
like it has just worn loose.

When I bought it I paid ~£160, and it's now available for £140.

Other than this play, the drill still performs perfectly. I
don't think I've abused the drill, and I don't think it's been
dropped hard. It has had a lot of heavy use.

My dilemma is this - given that I've had lots of use from it,
can I reasonably expect it to be repaired/replaced under the two
year warranty?

I'm not asking whether they would - there's only one way of
finding that out. I'm asking if I would be reasonable to ask,
it's kind of an ethical thing. I don't believe in taking the
**** with my suppliers.

So, what do you think? How long should a £150+ cordless drill
last with heavy use?

As IME the battery will probably be the weakest part, if anything
else breaks before the first battery is knackered it doesn't seem
unreasonable to me to expect a warrenty repair (you are still on your
first battery?)

tim


TIA

--
Grunff

On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 20:44:06 +0100, Grunff wrote:

I bought an 18v Erbauer drill from Screwfix about 15 months ago.
It has been a superb tool. I've used it almost every weekend for
the past 15 months.

It's recently developed significant play, not in the chuck, but
in the motor-case mounting. I can't see anything broken, looks
like it has just worn loose.

When I bought it I paid ~£160, and it's now available for £140.

Other than this play, the drill still performs perfectly. I
don't think I've abused the drill, and I don't think it's been
dropped hard. It has had a lot of heavy use.

My dilemma is this - given that I've had lots of use from it,
can I reasonably expect it to be repaired/replaced under the two
year warranty?

I'm not asking whether they would - there's only one way of
finding that out. I'm asking if I would be reasonable to ask,
it's kind of an ethical thing. I don't believe in taking the
**** with my suppliers.

So, what do you think? How long should a £150+ cordless drill
last with heavy use?

TIA


Presumably this is Screwfix 71776?

On the web site, and the catalogue, they use the description "high
performing". I think that that would be good enough for me to
invoke the warranty. If this were a £50 job, maybe not, but at £140
I would expect more.

I don't know if you have the latest Axminster catalogue, but they have
included a page (pp1.02) of classification ratings. For some time
they've put classifications on their power tools and machinery of
hobby, light trade, trade and industrial.

The definitions are helpful in knowing what to expect and in a subtle
way they are informing their customers, which I think is a good thing
to do. It's a guideline, but I think a reasonable one.

I'll paraphrase the definitions:

Hobby
=====

Lower power, light build, one person for light and occasional heavy
work. Looked after, not continuous use, not income generation, up to
100 hrs/year. e.g. Perform brand.

Light Trade
=========

Higher power, heavier build, used by 2-3 people in small company or
keen hobbyist. Occasional site use or kitchen fixing. SOme rough
handling but usually well looked after. Occasional heavy work. Used
for income generation, use up to 300 hrs/yr.

Trade
=====

Continuously rated, high power and heavy duty. Expected use by 6+
people in medium sized businesses, workshops or small production
facilities, site use. Some rough handling during site use. Used to
the tool's limit with heavy work periods. Essential for income
generation. Up to 1000 hrs/yr.

Industrial
=======

Continuously rated, high power and heavy duty. Expected use by
people in large sized businesses, workshops or large production
facilities, site use. Rough handling during site use and not well
looked after, but maintained in workshop use. Used to the tool's
limit with heavy work periods. Essential for income generation. Up
to 1500+ hrs/yr.


In the context of these I think I'd pitch the Erbauer drill in the
light trade category. You've used it every weekend but not every day.
Therefore again, I think it's reasonable that it should have lasted
longer.

For example, Axminster do an 18v cordless combi drill in their "White"
brand rated for light trade at £90 inc.

The trade rated ones are all branded and are £250+







..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

What you describe is not heavy use. My suggestion would be a polite letter
to Screwfix stating your case and asking for a repair/replacement. Let us
know what you do and how you get on.

tim wrote:

As IME the battery will probably be the weakest part, if anything
else breaks before the first battery is knackered it doesn't seem
unreasonable to me to expect a warrenty repair (you are still on your
first battery?)

Yes, first battery - well, pair of batteries, which came with
the drill. They've lasted pretty well, which I think is largely
to do with the very good 1hr charger that came with the drill.

Thanks.

--
Grunff

Andy Hall wrote:

Presumably this is Screwfix 71776?

That's the one - except mine was before they had a side handle.


On the web site, and the catalogue, they use the description "high
performing". I think that that would be good enough for me to
invoke the warranty. If this were a £50 job, maybe not, but at £140
I would expect more.

I don't know if you have the latest Axminster catalogue, but they have
included a page (pp1.02) of classification ratings. For some time
they've put classifications on their power tools and machinery of
hobby, light trade, trade and industrial.

I do have it, and I'd spotted the definitions, which are very
helpful. But thanks for repeating them in case I didn't have the
catalogue.


For example, Axminster do an 18v cordless combi drill in their "White"
brand rated for light trade at £90 inc.

Which may well be my replacement for the Erbauer.


The trade rated ones are all branded and are £250+

And as much as I'd love to have a 'proper' one, I just can't get
over the mental hurdle of paying quite that much for a
weekend-only tool, not just at the moment anyway.

Thanks for your thoughts.

--
Grunff

Peter Crosland wrote:
What you describe is not heavy use. My suggestion would be a polite letter
to Screwfix stating your case and asking for a repair/replacement. Let us
know what you do and how you get on.

Due to the high-spend I've had with Screwfix since buying our
current property, they've upgraded my account to a VIP account.
Since this happened, things have changed somewhat. They are
accomodating to the point of silliness, and routinely replace
items/resend orders without question. They were always good
before, but the account upgrade made them even better.

I recently posted about the little table saw which I burnt out -
again, not my fault, honest, it just had a poor motor. They
refunded it no questions asked.

I don't think I'll have too much trouble getting a repair if I
ask for it, I just wanted to get consensus on whether I was
being reasonable.

Will post followups.

Thanks for your thoughts.

--
Grunff

In uk.d-i-y, Andy Hall wrote:

On the web site, and the catalogue, they use the description "high
performing". I think that that would be good enough for me to
invoke the warranty. If this were a ??50 job, maybe not, but at ??140
I would expect more.

And further strengthening GrVIPunff's case ;-), I note that the front cover
of the current (vol. 71) Screwfix cat has a flash reading: "CHECK OUT -
LOWEST PRICES - for - PROFESSIONAL POWER TOOLS" followed by 4 logos:
Bosch, Erbauer, DeWalt, Makita. Which shows their own advertising places
the Erbauer in the same sort of bracket as those other brands - so a
polite invocation of the 2-year guarantee seems justified.

HTHSM, Stefek

(As an aside - me, I prefer a lighter less-to-go-wrong non-hammer cordless
(or two ;-), leaving heavier duties to corded drills. I've accumulated both
a "normal" B&D which hangs by the bench, close to the vice, and spends much
time drilling through metal at lowish speeds, and a fair bit of time in
one of those vertical stands (yeah, I've not yet succumbed to a dedicated
pillar drill ;-) and sees very little of its hammer action since the
arrival of the 'cuts through concrete and masonry like a normal twist drill
through softwood' SDS. Sure, if you're only going to get one drill, a
cordless combi is probably the nicest thing all round; and if your
property has whole wings/floors where the 'lectric has yet to reach the
attractions of cordless increase. But for my situation at least, separation
of duties allows each tool to be bought to be closer to "just right" for
a narrower range of tasks, rather than just "usable" across a broad range.)

wrote:

(As an aside - me, I prefer a lighter less-to-go-wrong non-hammer cordless
(or two ;-), leaving heavier duties to corded drills.

I tend to use my DeWalt SDS for almost all wall drilling, my
Bosch mains for most metals/other general, and my Erbauer
cordless when I need to be cordless. The last few weeks I've
been completing my shed project, which has involved a fair bit
of cordless hammering, all be it into soft Thermalites.


I've accumulated both
a "normal" B&D which hangs by the bench, close to the vice, and spends much
time drilling through metal at lowish speeds, and a fair bit of time in
one of those vertical stands (yeah, I've not yet succumbed to a dedicated
pillar drill ;-)

I bought a £50 Clarke pillar drill many years ago, and would
highly recommend it. Despite the appalling lack of precision, I
still find it a lot better than a drill in a stand.


Sure, if you're only going to get one drill, a
cordless combi is probably the nicest thing all round; and if your
property has whole wings/floors where the 'lectric has yet to reach the
attractions of cordless increase.

Or stables/pump house/shed/etc. The cordless is pretty
indispensable for me.

I took the Erbauer apart tonight, and what's happened is that
the motor-gearbox mount, which is a very poorly designed plastic
bayonet fitting, has developed a lot of play. I suspect that
this is largely due to hammer action. Since I can't think of a
fix, I will be contacting Screwfix tomorrow.

--
Grunff

On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 22:38:03 +0100, Grunff wrote:




For example, Axminster do an 18v cordless combi drill in their "White"
brand rated for light trade at £90 inc.

Which may well be my replacement for the Erbauer.


The trade rated ones are all branded and are £250+

And as much as I'd love to have a 'proper' one, I just can't get
over the mental hurdle of paying quite that much for a
weekend-only tool, not just at the moment anyway.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Another direction you could consider if you don't specifically need
the hammer action is the Makita 6228DWE. I had one of these with
three batteries as a deal from Axminster. Frankly, it is OK with two
during almost all jobs, swapping battery packs with the 1hr charger.

It has a very good speed and torque control which does a good job with
slow driving of screws at high torque.

I've used mine solidly for (I guess) two years and it remains very
solid as a trade rated tool.



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Andy Hall wrote:

Another direction you could consider if you don't specifically need
the hammer action is the Makita 6228DWE. I had one of these with
three batteries as a deal from Axminster. Frankly, it is OK with two
during almost all jobs, swapping battery packs with the 1hr charger.

It has a very good speed and torque control which does a good job with
slow driving of screws at high torque.

I've used mine solidly for (I guess) two years and it remains very
solid as a trade rated tool.

Hmm..While I don't use hammer on the cordless that much, there
have been several occasions where not having hammer would've
been very inconvenient - necessitating making up 100m+ extension
leads.

I suppose one possibility is that if Screwfix won't
replace/repair, I keep the Erbauer and use it only when I need
cordless hammer, and get myself a non-hammer Mak.

--
Grunff

In article ,
Grunff wrote:
I've accumulated both a "normal" B&D which hangs by the bench, close
to the vice, and spends much time drilling through metal at lowish
speeds, and a fair bit of time in one of those vertical stands (yeah,
I've not yet succumbed to a dedicated pillar drill ;-)

I bought a £50 Clarke pillar drill many years ago, and would highly
recommend it. Despite the appalling lack of precision, I still find it
a lot better than a drill in a stand.

I've got one stage worse - the B&Q 39 quid jobby. Several years old now. I
did take it apart and have the 'keyway' properly machined which allowed
the slop adjustment to be set to something approaching reasonable. I also
changed the rear pillar for a slightly longer one to allow taller objects
to fit in the vice.

What makes it head an shoulders above an electric drill in a stand is the
slow speed and much lower noise being an induction motor. Excellent value.

--
*Confession is good for the soul, but bad for your career.

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

It has a 2 year warranty, and is marketed as a tradesmans tool.

I would expect repair, rather than replacement with a new unit though.

dg

"Grunff" wrote in message
...
I bought an 18v Erbauer drill from Screwfix about 15 months ago.
It has been a superb tool. I've used it almost every weekend for
the past 15 months.

It's recently developed significant play, not in the chuck, but
in the motor-case mounting. I can't see anything broken, looks
like it has just worn loose.

When I bought it I paid ~£160, and it's now available for £140.

Other than this play, the drill still performs perfectly. I
don't think I've abused the drill, and I don't think it's been
dropped hard. It has had a lot of heavy use.

My dilemma is this - given that I've had lots of use from it,
can I reasonably expect it to be repaired/replaced under the two
year warranty?

I'm not asking whether they would - there's only one way of
finding that out. I'm asking if I would be reasonable to ask,
it's kind of an ethical thing. I don't believe in taking the
**** with my suppliers.

So, what do you think? How long should a £150+ cordless drill
last with heavy use?

TIA

--
Grunff

On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 20:44:06 +0100, Grunff wrote:

I bought an 18v Erbauer drill from Screwfix about 15 months ago.
It has been a superb tool. I've used it almost every weekend for
the past 15 months.

So, what do you think? How long should a £150+ cordless drill
last with heavy use?

Providing it is used for the purpose for which it is designed and
sold, then it should reasonably last for the period of the published
warranty as a minimum.

Without reading the terms of the warranty it would seem to me that
during the first 12 months the drill is covered by ScrewFix,
thereafter by Erbauer. However you'd need to check that (with ScrewFix
initially).

Overall I would think you are on reasonably safe ground with respect
to a claim on warranty, so you should have nothing to fear from
contacting ScrewFix. Both they are Erbauer ought to be interested in
this because neither would want to gain a reputation for selling goods
which fail within the warranty period.

However look out for the clause in the small print which serves as a
general get-out clause.

PoP

On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 17:08:46 +0100, PoP wrote:
Without reading the terms of the warranty it would seem to me that
during the first 12 months the drill is covered by ScrewFix,
thereafter by Erbauer. However you'd need to check that (with ScrewFix
initially).

And remember that a warranty is supplemental to your consumer rights. If
you wanted to kick up a fuss (which you apparently don't) you would kick
up with ScrewFix and have them return it to Erbauer. Obviously it would
make more sense for you to return it to them yourselves, however if it
subsequently fails ScrewFix could say "this isn't the drill we sold you
nor an authorised replacement and it hasn't been repaired by/through us".

Anyway, I think they'd be happy repairing/replacing it given your VIP
status, just wanted to remind people that the warranty is additional to
your consumer rights which covers you for up to 6 years from purchase.

Cheers,


Andy

wrote in message
...
In uk.d-i-y, Andy Hall wrote:

On the web site, and the catalogue, they use the description "high
performing". I think that that would be good enough for me to
invoke the warranty. If this were a ??50 job, maybe not, but at ??140
I would expect more.

And further strengthening GrVIPunff's case ;-), I note that the front
cover
of the current (vol. 71) Screwfix cat has a flash reading: "CHECK OUT -
LOWEST PRICES - for - PROFESSIONAL POWER TOOLS" followed by 4 logos:
Bosch, Erbauer, DeWalt, Makita. Which shows their own advertising places
the Erbauer in the same sort of bracket as those other brands - so a
polite invocation of the 2-year guarantee seems justified.

That is why it is always best to get a power tool with a decent guarantee.
PP Pro from B&Q and Ferm from Screwfix are 3 years. Ferm are low rent
models but that guarantee means you don't get ripped off.

I see Argos have a two levels of quality on their Challenge range, like B&Q
with PP and PP Pro. Do the Excel versions (I think it is that) have longer
guarantees?



---
--

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.507 / Virus Database: 304 - Release Date: 04/08/2003

IMM wrote:

This will happen again in another 18 months, so get your money back. See,
it is best to buy 3 year guarantee cheapo tools for DIY or heavy DIY. If
they clap out after 3 years you have lost little. For every day trade use
Makita. £160 for a battery drill is not exactly cheap.

I can't agree with you there.

I can see where you get your (flawed) logic from, but you're
missing one very important factor - the performance of the tool
during those 3 years. I've tried £30 cordless drills, and
compared to something like the Erbauer, with a good quality
motor, decent speed control, good batteries, and a great
charger, they are just crap.

Same goes for el-cheapo SDS drills.

--
Grunff

"Grunff" wrote in message
...
IMM wrote:

This will happen again in another 18 months, so get your money back.
See,
it is best to buy 3 year guarantee cheapo tools for DIY or heavy DIY.
If
they clap out after 3 years you have lost little. For every day trade
use
Makita. £160 for a battery drill is not exactly cheap.

I can't agree with you there.

I can see where you get your (flawed) logic from,

Logic is sound, you didn't get the point.

but you're
missing one very important factor - the performance of the tool
during those 3 years. I've tried £30 cordless drills, and
compared to something like the Erbauer, with a good quality
motor, decent speed control, good batteries, and a great
charger, they are just crap.

I'm not saying get bargain basement cheapo's. Good quality, good feel, good
performing DIY 3 year guarantee tools can be had. PP Pro come to mind and
not £160 either.

Your tool is now on the don't buy list.


---
--

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.507 / Virus Database: 304 - Release Date: 04/08/2003

On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 09:33:26 +0100, "Andy Jeffries"
wrote:

just wanted to remind people that the warranty is additional to
your consumer rights which covers you for up to 6 years from purchase.

6 years? I'm all ears if you've got the time; sounds fascinating. I
could see a year or three fairly easily, but 6 years, gosh! Presumably
diminishes a bit along the way?

Take Care,
Gnube
{too thick for linux}

On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 15:45:59 +0100, Gnube wrote:
just wanted to remind people that the warranty is additional to
your consumer rights which covers you for up to 6 years from purchase.

6 years? I'm all ears if you've got the time; sounds fascinating. I
could see a year or three fairly easily, but 6 years, gosh! Presumably
diminishes a bit along the way?

It's fairly straight forward. Neither the Sale of Goods Act[1] nor any other
applicable act (e.g. the Sale and Supply of Goods and Services Act [2])
mentions anything about a limited amount of time that goods should last.
The Sale of Goods Act does have provisions that a product should be
reasonably durable.

The maximum length of time you have to claim is up to 6 years.

Basically the guidance I have been given is that if a reasonable person
would expect a given product to last X months/years then it should. If
you buy a 20 GBP drill and use it on a building site every day for 7
hours/day a reasonable person wouldn't think it would last long.

There is a leaflet downloadable from the Which? web site[3] which you may
find interesting and there is a report somewhere on the net from Which?
that shows how they went back to high street retailers after the year
warranty and asked for a repair. Only a couple of retailers (out of those
tested) admitted they were liable.

{too thick for linux}

It's getting easier! ;-)

Cheers,


Andy


[1] http://www.shef.ac.uk/law/research/i...a/SoGA_new.doc
[2] http://www.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts1994...40035_en_1.htm
[3] http://www.which.net/campaigns/retail/cls/13.pdf

On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 16:20:58 +0100, "Andy Jeffries"
wrote:

There is a leaflet downloadable from the Which? web site[3] which you may
find interesting and there is a report somewhere on the net from Which?
that shows how they went back to high street retailers after the year
warranty and asked for a repair. Only a couple of retailers (out of those
tested) admitted they were liable.

Thanks for that, We have a particularly good local radio consumer show
most weekdays, and they recently hinted at this, and now I can see
what was behind the hint, although the general principle is quite
obvious, it's just a bit unusual to have a legal situation which
actually makes any sense, let alone quite a lot of it. ;O)

{too thick for linux}
It's getting easier! ;-)

Is has here since I gave it a miss, went back to windows and within a
few days had it doing everything Linux had failed to deliver. However,
I'd never have known where to look or even what to look for if it
hadn't been for the short linux experience in between. So it had it's
value in the plot! Not very likely to re-visit it though. It fair
enough, it's not really intended for an ordinary end user audience by
the look of things.

Take Care,
Gnube
{too thick for linux}

On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 11:11:40 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


wrote in message
...
In uk.d-i-y, Andy Hall wrote:

On the web site, and the catalogue, they use the description "high
performing". I think that that would be good enough for me to
invoke the warranty. If this were a ??50 job, maybe not, but at ??140
I would expect more.

And further strengthening GrVIPunff's case ;-), I note that the front
cover
of the current (vol. 71) Screwfix cat has a flash reading: "CHECK OUT -
LOWEST PRICES - for - PROFESSIONAL POWER TOOLS" followed by 4 logos:
Bosch, Erbauer, DeWalt, Makita. Which shows their own advertising places
the Erbauer in the same sort of bracket as those other brands - so a
polite invocation of the 2-year guarantee seems justified.

That is why it is always best to get a power tool with a decent guarantee.
PP Pro from B&Q and Ferm from Screwfix are 3 years. Ferm are low rent
models but that guarantee means you don't get ripped off.

I see Argos have a two levels of quality on their Challenge range, like B&Q
with PP and PP Pro. Do the Excel versions (I think it is that) have longer
guarantees?


The other problem with this philosophy apart from the poorer quality
during use is the time wasted in returning them and having the
argument with the retailer. That is very expensive.




..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 21:08:20 +0100, "IMM" wrote:



That is why it is always best to get a power tool with a decent
guarantee.
PP Pro from B&Q and Ferm from Screwfix are 3 years. Ferm are low rent
models but that guarantee means you don't get ripped off.

I see Argos have a two levels of quality on their Challenge range, like
B&Q
with PP and PP Pro. Do the Excel versions (I think it is that) have
longer
guarantees?


The other problem with this philosophy apart from the poorer quality
during use is the time wasted in returning them and having the
argument with the retailer. That is very expensive.

Buy two then, they are cheap enough.


Twice the space :-(

Two crappy products != one good product.






---

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Andy Hall wrote:

Two crappy products != one good product.

Now now Andy - we've already established that he has real
trouble with !=.

Probably don't teach that kind of stuff in honest, down-to-earth
universities.

--
Grunff

On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 21:34:12 +0100, Grunff wrote:

Andy Hall wrote:

Two crappy products != one good product.

Now now Andy - we've already established that he has real
trouble with !=.

Probably don't teach that kind of stuff in honest, down-to-earth
universities.

I suppose we shouldn't cast our perls before swine......



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 21:08:20 +0100, "IMM" wrote:



That is why it is always best to get a power tool with a decent
guarantee.
PP Pro from B&Q and Ferm from Screwfix are 3 years. Ferm are low rent
models but that guarantee means you don't get ripped off.

I see Argos have a two levels of quality on their Challenge range,
like
B&Q
with PP and PP Pro. Do the Excel versions (I think it is that) have
longer
guarantees?


The other problem with this philosophy apart from the poorer quality
during use is the time wasted in returning them and having the
argument with the retailer. That is very expensive.

Buy two then, they are cheap enough.


Twice the space :-(

Two crappy products != one good product.

I am not on about crappy products, just good DIY products. Top of the range
trade tools are a waste of money for DIY. You were on about down time. Two
cheapish tools, compared to trade tools does not give down time.


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Andy Hall wrote:

I suppose we shouldn't cast our perls before swine......

You've been saving that one, right? ;-)

--
Grunff

"Grunff" wrote in message
...
Andy Hall wrote:

Two crappy products != one good product.

Now now Andy - we've already established that he has real
trouble with !=.

Probably don't teach that kind of stuff in honest, down-to-earth
universities.

The not equal "!=" came from computer programming. Do you know what they
are?


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IMM wrote:

The not equal "!=" came from computer programming. Do you know what they
are?

They being "computer programming"?

--
Grunff

"Grunff" wrote in message
...
IMM wrote:

The not equal "!=" came from computer programming. Do you know what
they
are?

They being "computer programming"?

Computers? You think you are on a TV don't you?


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On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 21:54:21 +0100, "IMM" wrote:



Buy two then, they are cheap enough.


Twice the space :-(

Two crappy products != one good product.

I am not on about crappy products, just good DIY products.

You get what you pay for.

Top of the range
trade tools are a waste of money for DIY.

Not necessarily. It depends on a number of factors:

a) The quality, accuracy and ease of use of each
b) The reliability
c) Productivity as measured by whether the job can be completed more
quickly and/or to a better standard.
d) The trade off between time and cost for the purchaser.

You were on about down time. Two
cheapish tools, compared to trade tools does not give down time.

That's a fallacy because of course it does at some point.
Let's assume that a cheap tool will fail in half the time of the
quality one. Your argument is that when the cheap tool fails, you
can pick up the second one and keep going.

However, the argument is more complex than that. If you throw away
both cheap tools when they fail, then you have incurred no cost in
going to get them fixed. If you wish to invoke the warranty, then it
is going to cost time and money to do so. As a minimum, packing and
taking to post office or returning to B&Q etc. This is all time and
money. If you consider that your time costs money, even for DIY
purposes, then this is a significant issue. I don't want to waste
half a day returning something.

However, the quality tool, apart from most likely providing a better
and faster result, will be worth getting repaired or the spares to fix
when it does eventually fail. So if I take that route, it represents
better value for money taken over a period of time.
Moreover, if more has been paid for the item then it is much more
reasonable to expect a high level of service. With careful selection
of vendor and retailer, that generally happens, in my experience.





---

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 23:32:39 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


Top of the range
trade tools are a waste of money for DIY.

Not necessarily. It depends on a number of factors:

a) The quality, accuracy and ease of use of each
b) The reliability
c) Productivity as measured by whether the job can be completed more
quickly and/or to a better standard.
d) The trade off between time and cost for the purchaser.

All the above can be achieved with decent DIY tools.

They were all deliberately illustrations of relative and not absolute
criteria. In most cases, I can produce better results with a trade
quality tool than with a DIY tool, the accuracy is usually better, as
is the ease of use. I can normally get the job done, to a higher
standard, more quickly.



You were on about down time. Two
cheapish tools, compared to trade tools
does not give down time.

That's a fallacy because of course it does at some point.
Let's assume that a cheap tool will fail in half the time of the
quality one. Your argument is that when the cheap tool fails, you
can pick up the second one and keep going.

Correct. No down time. Simple!

Except that the issues are not.

However, the argument is more complex
than that.

Must be warped logic coming.....

Not really, but whether you would be able to follow is another matter.


If you throw away
both cheap tools when they fail, then
you have incurred no cost in
going to get them fixed. If you wish to
invoke the warranty, then it
is going to cost time and money to do so.

Tsk, tsk. When a tool is down you take it back if under warrantee at a
convenient time and have it changed or repaired. Or if out of guarantee buy
another.

All of which take time and effort and that costs money as far as I am
concerned. If you don't cost your time and are looking only at cash
outlay then the argument may be different.



However, the quality tool, apart
from most likely providing a better
and faster result,

A "trade" tool, get the terminology right, will not do a better job than a
decent DIY tool, unless it is a high precision tool which is a different
thing.

It of course depends on the specific tool, but in general a trade or
industrial tool is manufactured to a higher standard than a DIY tool
because it either has to do a more accurate job, be able to be used
ofr longer at a time and have a longer lifetime.


Little DIY requires very high precision.

Bull****. That entirely depends on the standards that one wants to
achieve and the time to be taken in doing so.


It maybe will last longer
in running hours, but DIY tools don't run that much in comparison.

That depends on the individual and the tool.



will be worth getting repaired or the spares to fix
when it does eventually fail.

Trade tools cost the earth to get repaired.

Not in my experience and with good branded tools, the spares are
available anyway.

Even pros don't bother much
these days,

Do you know any?


So if I take that route, it represents
better value for money taken over a period of time.

Wrong. In running hours maybe, not time, as DIY tools don't run that often.

No, right. However, it does depend on what the individual wishes to
achieve, as well as how much use the product gets. As I pointed
out, if you don't value your time and absolute cash spend is the
number one factor, then cheap tools may be interesting. If I can buy
something that will last for at least 5 years without more than basic
care as opposed to something at half the price with a 2 year warranty
that fails after 2 or even 3 years then I consider the more expensive
tool to be better value because I have not had to waste time taking it
back.



Moreover, if more has been paid for
the item then it is much more
reasonable to expect a high level of
service.

Makita is at times crap.

All manufacturers produce crap at some point, whether it be a
manufacturing or a design defect. I know with a good quality tool
purchased from a reputable retailer that I am going to get any issues
resolved very quickly or a refund. With a cheap store brand tool,
there is every likelihood that the model has changed and spares are no
longer easily obtained. OK, so a 3 year warranty is expected to
cover that. These are calculated by either building the cost into
the product price tag (implying it is even worse than would appear) or
that people won't bother to take them back.

Case in point. I purchased a DW biscuit jointer from Axminster
something over a year ago. It had a design defect with the fence
resulting in incorrect angle setting. I returned it and received a
refund with no issues at all including a refund of the return carriage
cost. I replaced it with a Lamello which is an excellent tool.





---

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In article ,
IMM wrote:
The not equal "!=" came from computer programming. Do you know what
they
are?

They being "computer programming"?

Computers? You think you are on a TV don't you?

Tell me IMM, what's your first language?

--
*Horn broken. - Watch for finger.

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

In message , Dave Plowman
writes
In article ,
IMM wrote:
The not equal "!=" came from computer programming. Do you know what
they
are?

They being "computer programming"?

Computers? You think you are on a TV don't you?

Tell me IMM, what's your first language?

Double dutch
--
geoff

In message , Andy Hall
writes

You were on about down time. Two
cheapish tools, compared to trade tools does not give down time.

That's a fallacy because of course it does at some point.

Normally on Sunday afternoon when something has to be finished over the
weekend
--
geoff

On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 23:43:25 +0100, Grunff wrote:

Do yourself a *big* favour and try Mandrake9 (he says, typing
this on a w2k laptop!). Get it from somewhere like
URL:http://linuxemporium.co.uk/ for a few £.

That's the fist thing I did when I got broadband, downloaded the 3
Mandy 9 ISOs and had a crack at it.

Oddly, just posted what happened in the " RFD uk.d-i-y" thread in
reply to another, playing with my sig! ;O)

I just looked in my CD wallet and it's in good company:
FreeBSD 4.5 - 4 CDs plus the mini one;
LM 9 - 3 CDs;
Debian Woody - 7 CDs;
Suse 8.0 - 1 CD;
Knoppix 1 CD.

Since I've bought examples of them as well as downloading latest
version at times too, I think I've done my share of giving it a fair
go. I would admit to being a bit of a picky so and so though! I'm sure
in time I'll find one I am pretty much at home with. Oh and Gentoo has
been of interest and may go for another spin in the not too distant
future. For now it's win2k pro, and it's serviceable for what I want
to do (just).

Anyway, I'm sure we'll bore all and sundry if we carry on with this in
here, it's about as off topic as you could get, fascinations as it is
for us perhaps! Shame as there are no Via-Epia type board groups on
usenet as far as I know, and that's about DIY if anything ever was,
I'm hoping to lob one into a HiFi receiver that died last week in the
not too distant future. Got some saving to do first though! Anyone
know how to start one, and wouldn't mind trying to do so? I bet the UK
has quite a few tinkerers of this sort floating about! Good, clean,
cheapish fun! ;O)

Sorry for the off topic stuff everyone, I normally try to keep a lid
on it!

Take Care,
Gnube
{too thick for linux}

On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 10:40:35 +0100, "Andy Jeffries"
wrote:

Holy crap!! You are saying that you find Linux too user-unfriendly and
are considering Gentoo!

No, that's not what I meant to say. I was more rating them than
expressing how I personally found them.

That's like saying I don't know much about cars so I'm going to buy a nice
easy one, however I may get one in kit form soon to give that a go!

Indeed it would be like that to a certain extent, however in my youth
3 of us clubbed together to build our first car, a bullock, based on
the salvage from a ford escort van, so that would be in character for
me I guess! It wasn't the having a car, but the learning which was the
most rewarding. Even if I have forgotten it all again now! ;O)

If you want to try a Linux distro again, I'd recommend against Gentoo -
it's too powerful/complex for beginners.

Indeed, but I happen to have access to a Gentoo guru, and that helps!
;O)

If you try RedHat (9) on a machine that isn't your main one, feel free to
email me with anything you need help on.

I always keep a machine handy for playing about with Linux. Most of
what I find a problem with linux boils down to there being a lot out
there who will urge just about anyone to try it, and very often, if
you do, and then mention the things it does not do because that
feature is actually broken (so far, it may get fixed one day) they
then typically say, "oh, well, I don't use it that way, I only use it
for....!". I can't help getting the feeling that might have been more
usefully mentioned BEFORE or even WHILE urging another to adopt it!
You rarely see that happen though, at least not IME so far! ;O)

Anyway, this isn't really the place for this subject, I hope I din't
upset anyone too much by replying, but didn't want to leave what you
say ignored either, it seemed worth more than that; And, loosely
speaking, Linux is a DIY operating system anyway.

Take Care,
Gnube
{too thick for linux}

"Grunff" wrote in message
...
Andy Hall wrote:

I don't know if you've done anything on this as yet, but I just
received an email from Axminster with a price reduction on a Makita
8443 18v combi drill.

The price has dropped by £34 to £249.95

http://www.axminster.co.uk/default.asp?part=mak8443dw

Thanks for that Andy - I got the email too, and am thinking
about it.

I called Screwfix, who arranged collection of my Erbauer, no
questions asked! They didn't even ask what was wrong with it.

I've gone back to using my (very old, needs new batteries) Bosch
9.6V, but it is but a shadow of it's former self.

I would really like that Makita, and may well bite the bullet
and buy it, but I think I'll wait 'til I'm sure Screwfix will
actually refund me.

God help me if SWMBO finds out I spent £250 on a cordless drill
- she'll want a new saddle!

£250 on a cordless drill? For DIY? Ouch!!!


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