DerbyDad03 wrote:

or...

Install a pre-hung door.

I nave nothing against pre-hung doors, even have 3-4. But they aren't the
panacea you seem to think they are. Especially if you have never installed
one.

First of all, they are not all that rigid. They are easy to rack.
Especially when using the necessary shims.

Shims aren't all that hard either especially if one understands that they
are used in pairs. If not, it is duck soup to bow or wind the jamb(s).
Then there is the matter of where to place them (shims).

Once the jambs are shimmed where they should be and are square and/or
parallel as the case may be to each other and are perpendicular to the wall,
there is the matter of fastening. All the preceding can be easily undone by
improper fastening.

In OPs case, he already has jambs. The 2x4s. He also has a door. All he
need do is fix the door and rehang it. Or replace it and I'm with you(?)
and others in that respect...I don't understand why he thinks he can't hang
another door of proper width & height - regardless of thickness - where the
old one was.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

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Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out...
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On Jul 17, 3:07*pm, "dadiOH" wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:
or...

....

Install a pre-hung door.

First of, that was half a joke based on how many times that solution
has been proposed by many - and refused by the OP.


I nave nothing against pre-hung doors, even have 3-4. *But they aren't the
panacea you seem to think they are. *Especially if you have never installed
one.

I've done many, both interior and entry, wood, fiberglass and steel.
I'm guessing the OP hasn't.

The worst was an installation on top of a 10" step into a basement
room in a seriously unsquare opening that was both too wide and too
narrow for any standard size door. In addition, the RO on the latch
side was just paneling between studs. We ended up attaching a 1 x 6 to
the closest stud, flat on the face of the paneling, to both fill the
gap and to give us a solid surface on which to mount/shim the jamb.

Once it was trimmed, it came out OK, especially since the goal was
just to give my son a little privacy in a basement room he was
renting. Any door, even a weirdly hung one, is better than a wide open
doorway into your "apartment".


First of all, they are not all that rigid. *They are easy to rack.
Especially when using the necessary shims.

Shims aren't all that hard either especially if one understands that they
are used in pairs. *If not, it is duck soup to bow or wind the jamb(s).
Then there is the matter of where to place them (shims).

Agree.


Once the jambs are shimmed where they should be and are square and/or
parallel as the case may be to each other and are perpendicular to the wall,
there is the matter of fastening. *All the preceding can be easily undone by
improper fastening.

Agree.


In OPs case, he already has jambs. *The 2x4s.

Agree, to some extent. Yes, by definition, the RO is also the jamb in
this case.

However, the jamb of a pre-hung door, or even a separate jamb kit, can
be shimmed square if the RO isn't.

The OP says the RO "appears square" and even claims that "the non-
hinge side is square". He says can't check the other side because of
the hinges. Those statements tell me that he doesn't known what square
means.

He also has a door. *All he
need do is fix the door and rehang it.

Agree, to some extent. He seems to be trying to fix it in the
basement, without actually determining whether or not the RO is
square. It would suck to be him if he gets the door all nice and
square only to find that his RO isn't square. Remember, according to
him, he can't check the RO for square because of the hinges. We've yet
to hear an explanation for that claim.

Or replace it and I'm with you(?)
and others in that respect...I don't understand why he thinks he can't hang
another door of proper width & height - regardless of thickness - where the
old one was.

I submit that the reason is becasue he is over his head and is going
to trot blindly down the "I'm gonna fix and square up this old door"
path regardless of where it takes him.

AFTER 15 YEARS ON THE INTERNET, AND ON USENET. I HAVE NEVER BEEN SO
BORED AND UNAMUSED, AND DISINTERESTED IN A THREAD AS THIS ONE....

ARE YOU PEEPS FOR REAL?

YEAH, YEAH....WHY HAVE I BEEN FOLLOWING THIS THREAD?

WELL... I COULDN'T BELIEVE WHAT WAS GOING ON. SEEMS LIKE ALL YOU GUYS
WERE HYPNOTIZED.

"HERE'S THE BEST WAY....NO, NO, HERE'S THE BEST WAY....NO, NO, HEY WHO
ARE YOU?" "NO LET'S SEE SOME PICS...NO, NO, DON'T DO IT IN THE
BASEMENT...NO, NO, LET ME COME OVER AND SHOW YOU HOW IT'S DONE....NO,
NO...BUY SOME CLAMPS AND USE EM ON YOUR WIFE...THAT WILL SURLY HANDLE
THE PROM."

"NO,NO...TAKE OUT THE HEADER AND ADJUST YOUR SCREW LEADS."

BINGO....! HEY...! I THINK THE OP IS A TROLL....EVER CONSIDER THAT?

HOWEVER...IT HAS BEEN FUN.

On Tue, 17 Jul 2012 14:40:32 -0600, (Papa Pat)
wrote:

HOWEVER...IT HAS BEEN FUN.

Your cap lock key is stuck.

I made another pass thru the Restore today, and came up empty.

Also made concerted effort to split off the hinge stile from the rest and
partially failed. It more-or-less separated itself at the bottom, and the
intermediate rails separated, but the stile wouldn't come free of the top rail.
The lock stile did separate on the other side of the top rail. The pattern of
the joint is very intricate, and it doesn't wanna break. What did they use to
bind such stuff back in 1955? Glue? Epoxy?? What (if any) chemical can I use to
break the joint???

Y'all may or may-not be interested in the simple fact that I've been
studiously trying to avoid the business of "trying to stuff a square
peg in a round hole" which many responses have suggested. It looked
really simple when I started ("just replace the flogging door, f'crissake!").
Now it looks a mess.

Do they even *make* exterior pre-hungs measuring 30 x (80-?) x 1 3/4"? Would it
*really* fit 32 x 80 opening?? How expensive???

Thx,
P

On Sun, 15 Jul 2012 15:33:57 -0500, Puddin' Man wrote:


For those crazy enought to try to follow the multiple threads:

OP1 - Sagging Garage Door 6-17-12
OP2 - How difficult is it to "build" a door? 7-11-12

In a nutshell, I got a sheet of 1/2" MDF from HD cut to 32x80", attached
some blocks for the hinges, installed the old lockset, and viola, I've
built a (very crude and temp) door. The garage is at least secure.

The old and offending door is on work-horses in the basement. I am
evaluating the potential for rebuilding the door. Methinks it
doesn't look so good:

http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/...07-2012001.jpg
http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/...07-2012002.jpg
http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/...07-2012003.jpg

Your candid opinion is solicited (dbp, are you out there?). Near as I can tell, it
isn't worth re-building.


"Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."

On Jul 17, 11:21*pm, Puddin' Man wrote:
I made another pass thru the Restore today, and came up empty.

Also made concerted effort to split off the hinge stile from the rest and
partially failed. It more-or-less separated itself at the bottom, and the
intermediate rails separated, but the stile wouldn't come free of the top rail.
The lock stile did separate on the other side of the top rail. The pattern of
the joint is very intricate, and it doesn't wanna break. What did they use to
bind such stuff back in 1955? Glue? Epoxy?? What (if any) chemical can I use to
break the joint???

Y'all may or may-not be interested in the simple fact that I've been
studiously trying to avoid the business of "trying to stuff a square
peg in a round hole" which many responses have suggested. It looked
really simple when I started ("just replace the flogging door, f'crissake!").
Now it looks a mess.

Do they even *make* exterior pre-hungs measuring 30 x (80-?) x 1 3/4"? Would it
*really* fit 32 x 80 opening?? How expensive???

* Thx,
* P


Just as one example, Therma Tru makes pre hung exterior doors that are
30 x 78 (2'6" x 6'6"). That size door should fit a 32 x 80 opening
with no modification.

http://www.thermatru.com/products/en.../ss/index.aspx

I'm sure many other manufacturers do too.

Prices will vary by manufacturer and style. I would find a contractor
supply house in your area, such as a Norandex Reynolds dealer. You can
usually get a better price than at a home center, but shop around.

If you want to stick with a 30 x 80 door, you'll probably need to
raise the header.

Exactly how tall is your RO? 80-? Is not a number.

Puddin' Man wrote:

Y'all may or may-not be interested in the simple fact that I've been
studiously trying to avoid the business of "trying to stuff a square
peg in a round hole" which many responses have suggested. It looked
really simple when I started ("just replace the flogging door,
f'crissake!"). Now it looks a mess.

Well, you made it.

Do they even *make* exterior pre-hungs measuring 30 x (80-?) x 1
3/4"? Would it *really* fit 32 x 80 opening?? How expensive???

DAGS for "Lowes" or "Home Depot"

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out...
http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On Jul 18, 2:24*am, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Jul 17, 11:21*pm, Puddin' Man wrote:





I made another pass thru the Restore today, and came up empty.

Also made concerted effort to split off the hinge stile from the rest and
partially failed. It more-or-less separated itself at the bottom, and the
intermediate rails separated, but the stile wouldn't come free of the top rail.
The lock stile did separate on the other side of the top rail. The pattern of
the joint is very intricate, and it doesn't wanna break. What did they use to
bind such stuff back in 1955? Glue? Epoxy?? What (if any) chemical can I use to
break the joint???

It would seem if the stile is seperated everywhere but
at the top, you could pry it apart enough to get a saw
blade in to cut the dowels off no? Then drill them out.





Y'all may or may-not be interested in the simple fact that I've been
studiously trying to avoid the business of "trying to stuff a square
peg in a round hole" which many responses have suggested. It looked
really simple when I started ("just replace the flogging door, f'crissake!").
Now it looks a mess.

Do they even *make* exterior pre-hungs measuring 30 x (80-?) x 1 3/4"? Would it
*really* fit 32 x 80 opening?? How expensive???

If the existing opening is 32x80 and square, why isn't
buying a new door only, not pre-hung, possible? I know
you've indicated you think thickness is a big issue,
but everyone here has told you it isn't. At least not
from anything we've heard so far.




* Thx,
* P

Just as one example, Therma Tru makes pre hung exterior doors that are
30 x 78 (2'6" x 6'6"). *That size door should fit a 32 x 80 opening
with no modification.

http://www.thermatru.com/products/en...y-doors/ss/ind...

I'm sure many other manufacturers do too.

Prices will vary by manufacturer and style. I would find a contractor
supply house in your area, such as a Norandex Reynolds dealer. You can
usually get a better price than at a home center, but shop around.

If you want to stick with a 30 x 80 door, you'll probably need to
raise the header.

Exactly how tall is your RO? 80-? Is not a number.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If the smaller size door is an issue and given that the
framing is completely exposed inside the
garage, ie there is no drywall or similar, making the job
somewhat easier, I would also not rule out a pre-hung
32x80 You just have to remove the existing RO 2x4's
cut off some exterior sheathing/siding, and reframe.

On 7/17/2012 10:21 PM, Puddin' Man wrote:
....

Also made concerted effort to split off the hinge stile from the rest and
partially failed. It more-or-less separated itself at the bottom, and the
intermediate rails separated, but the stile wouldn't come free of the top rail.
The lock stile did separate on the other side of the top rail. The pattern of
the joint is very intricate, and it doesn't wanna break. What did they use to
bind such stuff back in 1955? Glue? Epoxy?? What (if any) chemical can I use to
break the joint???
....

I know I said I'd quite watching but "best laid plans..." and all that

Well, good...that's good progress, actually.

They were glued, probably w/ a resorcinol or similar waterproof glue of
the day. You don't need to get the joints that are still tight fully apart.

Now, just work (gently so as to not screw up the cope cuts any more than
can avoid) to clean up all the surfaces of the old paint, dirt, etc.,
etc., until you're back to an original surface.

Then reassemble (dry!!!!!!!!!!) and work see if you can bring the rail
ends back into full contact w/ the stiles. If so, now you can begin to
work on any out-of-square issues. Actually going back and looking at
the picture of the door itself you posted, it really doesn't look like
there will be much of a problem other than perhaps the bottom stile
where the dowels have shrunk some and probably the holes are hogged out
from all the flexing from the extended time they have been loose.

Again, use a story stick and measure the diagonal (after checking that
the two stiles are the same length as well as that the top and bottom
widths are the same in order to account for the fact it may have been
trimmed to fit an out-of-square opening before).

Again, I can't emphasize enough----patience, Patience, PATIENCE!!!! is
the key in the cleanup and reassembly. If you can only stand the tedium
of gently cleaning/scraping/_lightly_ sanding for an hour at a time
before you start throwing things and getting rough on it then just lay
down the tools and come back the next morning...

Again, you _CAN_ do this...and it'll be just fine when you're done if
you just work carefully to not do irrecoverable damage by too
enthusiastic scraping, etc.

Have you been able to work the other dowels out? That's a key
element--if they're still solid themselves and seem to be solid in the
hole of one end, don't break them off; those ends will be fine. Use a
proper-sized drill bit by hand or very gently in a drill to clean out
the others and check fit. If you do need either a larger dowel or to
plug and redrill the ones on the bottom rail, you do need a doweling jig
(either store-bought or home made but it has to be accurate if the
latter) to line them up properly if redrilling.

Another poster has suggested some product as a filler I'm not familiar
with--I can't recommend or dis-recommend it as being a long-term cure.
Unless the diameter is very close, I don't recommend epoxy as the
filler/glue--the commonly available ones aren't good for long-term
reliability when thick glue line. I always either go a larger dowel in
a cleanly reamed hole or plug and then redrill. (Or sometimes in rare
cases where there wasn't good material around the hole I'll actually
turn the dowels into loose tenons by chiseling out the area between two
existing holes. This adds a _lot_ of surface gluing area at the expense
of some work. (Much easier if can take the pieces to the mortiser, but
doable by hand w/ just some time and again, that p-word I've been
preaching ).

--

On Jul 18, 11:54*am, dpb wrote:
On 7/17/2012 10:21 PM, Puddin' Man wrote:
...

Also made concerted effort to split off the hinge stile from the rest and
partially failed. It more-or-less separated itself at the bottom, and the
intermediate rails separated, but the stile wouldn't come free of the top rail.
The lock stile did separate on the other side of the top rail. The pattern of
the joint is very intricate, and it doesn't wanna break. What did they use to
bind such stuff back in 1955? Glue? Epoxy?? What (if any) chemical can I use to
break the joint???

...

I know I said I'd quite watching but "best laid plans..." and all that

Well, good...that's good progress, actually.

They were glued, probably w/ a resorcinol or similar waterproof glue of
the day. *You don't need to get the joints that are still tight fully apart.

Now, just work (gently so as to not screw up the cope cuts any more than
can avoid) to clean up all the surfaces of the old paint, dirt, etc.,
etc., until you're back to an original surface.

Then reassemble (dry!!!!!!!!!!) and work see if you can bring the rail
ends back into full contact w/ the stiles. *If so, now you can begin to
work on any out-of-square issues. *Actually going back and looking at
the picture of the door itself you posted, it really doesn't look like
there will be much of a problem other than perhaps the bottom stile
where the dowels have shrunk some and probably the holes are hogged out
from all the flexing from the extended time they have been loose.

Again, use a story stick and measure the diagonal (after checking that
the two stiles are the same length as well as that the top and bottom
widths are the same in order to account for the fact it may have been
trimmed to fit an out-of-square opening before).

Again, I can't emphasize enough----patience, Patience, PATIENCE!!!! is
the key in the cleanup and reassembly. *If you can only stand the tedium
of gently cleaning/scraping/_lightly_ sanding for an hour at a time
before you start throwing things and getting rough on it then just lay
down the tools and come back the next morning...

Again, you _CAN_ do this...and it'll be just fine when you're done if
you just work carefully to not do irrecoverable damage by too
enthusiastic scraping, etc.

Have you been able to work the other dowels out? *That's a key
element--if they're still solid themselves and seem to be solid in the
hole of one end, don't break them off; those ends will be fine. *Use a
proper-sized drill bit by hand or very gently in a drill to clean out
the others and check fit. *If you do need either a larger dowel or to
plug and redrill the ones on the bottom rail, you do need a doweling jig
(either store-bought or home made but it has to be accurate if the
latter) to line them up properly if redrilling.

Another poster has suggested some product as a filler I'm not familiar
with--I can't recommend or dis-recommend it as being a long-term cure.
Unless the diameter is very close, I don't recommend epoxy as the
filler/glue--the commonly available ones aren't good for long-term
reliability when thick glue line. *I always either go a larger dowel in
a cleanly reamed hole or plug and then redrill. *(Or sometimes in rare
cases where there wasn't good material around the hole I'll actually
turn the dowels into loose tenons by chiseling out the area between two
existing holes. *This adds a _lot_ of surface gluing area at the expense
of some work. *(Much easier if can take the pieces to the mortiser, but
doable by hand w/ just some time and again, that p-word I've been
preaching ).

--

The one thing I see missing (can you actually see something that is
missing?) in your post is any mention of checking the RO for square.

I'm sure you don't want to read back through all three threads so I'll
give you a recap:

Nothing the OP has said gives me (or others) any confidence that he
knows whether the RO is square or not.

He has said it "appears square" and he has said that the "non-hinge
side is square" but that he can't check if the hinge side is square
because the "hinges are needed for security".

We can't figure out what he means by that and he has not responded to
numerous requests to explain it.

He might use copious amounts of "patience, patience, patience" getting
the door square only to find that it doesn't fit because the RO isn't
square.

On 7/18/2012 11:28 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
....

He might use copious amounts of "patience, patience, patience" getting
the door square only to find that it doesn't fit because the RO isn't
square.

It came out of the opening; odds are it'll go back (other than perhaps
needing a little shaving if he doesn't get it back quite tight.

If it needs more trimming than that to fit the opening then he either
trims to fit or squares the opening; his choice.

The point is, fix the door correctly and it will then last; don't try to
cobble up some repair to try to make it fit a bad opening; it'll just
fail again sooner than later 'cuz you'll have pulled the other joints
out of square to get it that way.

Or stating it another way--the stile ends are manufactured square;
they're not going to fit into the cope uniformly along their width
unless they are square and if they don't fit from their top to bottom
then there's no way the door is anything but wider than it started and
the joints are under stress by being cockeyed. That happens either by
the dowels flexing or more likely by compressing the material on one
side of the hole which means they're not tight and that joint will soon
fail again.

It just ain't the right way to go at it; opening square or no. If it
isn't then that's an issue on its own to be resolved when he gets to it.

He'll have the same problem if he goes to the replacement door--it'll be
square to start so he'll be no worse off if this one is...

--

On Jul 18, 2:32*pm, dpb wrote:
On 7/18/2012 11:28 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
...

He might use copious amounts of "patience, patience, patience" getting
the door square only to find that it doesn't fit because the RO isn't
square.

It came out of the opening; odds are it'll go back (other than perhaps
needing a little shaving if he doesn't get it back quite tight.

If it needs more trimming than that to fit the opening then he either
trims to fit or squares the opening; his choice.

The point is, fix the door correctly and it will then last; don't try to
cobble up some repair to try to make it fit a bad opening; it'll just
fail again sooner than later 'cuz you'll have pulled the other joints
out of square to get it that way.

Or stating it another way--the stile ends are manufactured square;
they're not going to fit into the cope uniformly along their width
unless they are square and if they don't fit from their top to bottom
then there's no way the door is anything but wider than it started and
the joints are under stress by being cockeyed. *That happens either by
the dowels flexing or more likely by compressing the material on one
side of the hole which means they're not tight and that joint will soon
fail again.

It just ain't the right way to go at it; opening square or no. *If it
isn't then that's an issue on its own to be resolved when he gets to it.

He'll have the same problem if he goes to the replacement door--it'll be
square to start so he'll be no worse off if this one is...

--

Since he has no jamb, just the 2 x 4 framing, the RO can't be squared
with shims like a pre-hung could be, making it a little tougher to
fix.

That's one of the reasons many of us have suggested a pre-hung if he
determines that the RO isn't square and that the door has been
modified to fit.

I'm not saying he shouldn't fix the door correctly, but if it was me,
I'd want to know the condition of my RO beforehand. It would nag me
throughout the project wondering if there was some other variable that
I should be aware of.

Measure, drill, dowel, measure..."I wonder if the RO is
square"...Glue, clamp, measure, adjust..."I wonder if the RO is
square"...Glue, clamp, measure, adjust..."I wonder if the RO is
square"...carry it up the stairs, go have lunch..."I wonder if the RO
is square".

Of course, maybe that's just me.

On 7/18/2012 2:06 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
....

Since he has no jamb, just the 2 x 4 framing, the RO can't be squared
with shims like a pre-hung could be, making it a little tougher to
fix.

Well, it came _out_of_ that very same opening and it wasn't apart when
it was hung (one presumes)...

....

Measure, drill, dowel, measure..."I wonder if the RO is
square"...Glue, clamp, measure, adjust..."I wonder if the RO is
square"...Glue, clamp, measure, adjust..."I wonder if the RO is
square"...carry it up the stairs, go have lunch..."I wonder if the RO
is square".

Of course, maybe that's just me.

That's just you...

But how would you plan on compensating on the floor, anyway,
realistically?

If the opening was/is much out of square when it was hung, it'll have
already been trimmed to fit (or never fit anyway). If he puts it back
together as it was originally he'll have the same door as it was then in
the same opening barring whatever settling has happened. That if any is
nothing he should take care of in putting the door together though;
that's a totally different issue.

As I've told OP numerous times, the point is to get the rails back to
meeting the stiles in their original locations and full pulled together.
If (as I've already noted multiple times) the door has been trimmed to
fit a non-square opening he'll find that out when he measures the to
sides' respective lengths as well as the width at the top and bottom--if
it's been trimmed then it won't be really square even though the joints
fit correctly--that'll be the measurement he wants to fit the hole
though or at least very close.

But even if it isn't a square opening, what's so tough about trimming a
wooden door that you would go to extremes to mis-assemble one to
compensate??????????????

--

On 7/18/2012 2:19 PM, dpb wrote:
.....

Measure, drill, dowel, measure..."I wonder if the RO is
square"...Glue, clamp, measure, adjust..."I wonder if the RO is
square"...Glue, clamp, measure, adjust..."I wonder if the RO is
square"...carry it up the stairs, go have lunch..."I wonder if the RO
is square".

Of course, maybe that's just me.

That's just you...
....

But to make it perfectly clear--the objective is _NOT_ to force the door
to measure the same across the two diagonals _UNLESS_AND_ONLY_UNLESS_
the measurements of the door show it has _NOT_ been trimmed
significantly to compensate for an out-of-square opening.

If the lengths and widths are uniform then the door has not been
significantly altered and that's the indication when it has been brought
back to square, yes. If those measurements show it has been trimmed
significantly, then the point (and really the point anyway) is _still_
to get the rails and stiles back to their original positions and full in
contact w/ the coping having removed all the accumulated dirt, paint,
etc., that has built up over the years. The diagonal measurements then
will not necessarily be the same but it won't matter. The point is the
door will be back to very close to the dimensions it was before it
failed badly enough to be a problem.

In actuality looking at the pictures OP posted when it was down and
partially apart, the top rail, lock rail and quite possibly the next one
down show little evidence of separation--the "sagging" is almost all
solely in the bottom kick stile joint(s) which has/have come loose and
the subsequent wear on the dowels and dowel holes in it that cause it to
droop. When that panel is back in it's proper place or near to it, I'd
lay pretty good odds it'll fit the opening just fine w/ perhaps just a
little tweaking...

--

On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 10:54:36 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 7/17/2012 10:21 PM, Puddin' Man wrote:
...

Also made concerted effort to split off the hinge stile from the rest and
partially failed. It more-or-less separated itself at the bottom, and the
intermediate rails separated, but the stile wouldn't come free of the top rail.
The lock stile did separate on the other side of the top rail. The pattern of
the joint is very intricate, and it doesn't wanna break. What did they use to
bind such stuff back in 1955? Glue? Epoxy?? What (if any) chemical can I use to
break the joint???
...

I know I said I'd quite watching but "best laid plans..." and all that

Well, good...that's good progress, actually.

Could be worse.

They were glued, probably w/ a resorcinol or similar waterproof glue of
the day. You don't need to get the joints that are still tight fully apart.

I had figgered on breaking all joints. It now doesn't look practical.

Now, just work (gently so as to not screw up the cope cuts any more than
can avoid) to clean up all the surfaces of the old paint, dirt, etc.,
etc., until you're back to an original surface.

Any tips you can relate about "work (gently so as to not screw up ..."
would be much appreciated. I tap-tap with the mallet, and I grab
each piece in one hand and work back and forward, and that's
the end of my "technique".

I have yet to fully disengage a single piece. See photo.

What tools did you use to clean out the joint surfaces? Aside from
a paint scraper (obviously needed)?

Then reassemble (dry!!!!!!!!!!) and work see if you can bring the rail
ends back into full contact w/ the stiles. If so, now you can begin to
work on any out-of-square issues. Actually going back and looking at
the picture of the door itself you posted, it really doesn't look like
there will be much of a problem other than perhaps the bottom stile
where the dowels have shrunk some and probably the holes are hogged out
from all the flexing from the extended time they have been loose.

Many *are* hogged out, mostly on the rail (so far).

Again, use a story stick and measure the diagonal (after checking that
the two stiles are the same length as well as that the top and bottom
widths are the same in order to account for the fact it may have been
trimmed to fit an out-of-square opening before).

I've not used a story stick. When I do a search, all I'm getting is
info on commercial products. If you can point me to a site where
they build their own, it'd help.

Again, I can't emphasize enough----patience, Patience, PATIENCE!!!! is
the key in the cleanup and reassembly. If you can only stand the tedium
of gently cleaning/scraping/_lightly_ sanding for an hour at a time
before you start throwing things and getting rough on it then just lay
down the tools and come back the next morning...

Well, I'm working on it. Haven't ripped anything yet. But it's
frustrating. The wood exhibits unpredictable behavior, not
something I'm used to.

Again, you _CAN_ do this...and it'll be just fine when you're done if
you just work carefully to not do irrecoverable damage by too
enthusiastic scraping, etc.

Have you been able to work the other dowels out? That's a key
element--if they're still solid themselves and seem to be solid in the
hole of one end, don't break them off; those ends will be fine. Use a
proper-sized drill bit by hand or very gently in a drill to clean out
the others and check fit. If you do need either a larger dowel or to
plug and redrill the ones on the bottom rail, you do need a doweling jig
(either store-bought or home made but it has to be accurate if the
latter) to line them up properly if redrilling.

I can work out one side on maybe 1/3 of the dowels (so far). They measure about
..599 to .623. Some fragment when I remove (see photo). Tend to come loose on
the rail (not stile) side. They are 4.5 +" long.

http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/...07-2012004.jpg
http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/...07-2012005.jpg
http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/...07-2012006.jpg

The only doweling jig I have won't handle this size.

Another poster has suggested some product as a filler I'm not familiar
with--I can't recommend or dis-recommend it as being a long-term cure.
Unless the diameter is very close, I don't recommend epoxy as the
filler/glue--the commonly available ones aren't good for long-term
reliability when thick glue line. I always either go a larger dowel in
a cleanly reamed hole or plug and then redrill. (Or sometimes in rare
cases where there wasn't good material around the hole I'll actually
turn the dowels into loose tenons by chiseling out the area between two
existing holes. This adds a _lot_ of surface gluing area at the expense
of some work. (Much easier if can take the pieces to the mortiser, but
doable by hand w/ just some time and again, that p-word I've been
preaching ).

That'll hopefully come later.

RO = Rough Opening? I measure it as H = 80, W = 32.5". Either diagonal
measures about 86".

The hinge stile is 80 1/8", the other (lock) stile is 79 7/8".

Glad you are "staying aboard". I'll need all the help I can get before
this is over.

Thx,
P

"Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."

On Tue, 17 Jul 2012 23:24:16 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03 wrote:

If you want to stick with a 30 x 80 door, you'll probably need to
raise the header.

Exactly how tall is your RO? 80-? Is not a number.

It's 80". The ? was meant to represent the difference between
the pre-hung height and it's door height. Is this diff.
standard? What is it? 2" like the door diff.?

P

"Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."

On Jul 18, 3:19*pm, dpb wrote:
On 7/18/2012 2:06 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
...

Since he has no jamb, just the 2 x 4 framing, the RO can't be squared
with shims like a pre-hung could be, making it a little tougher to
fix.

Well, it came _out_of_ that very same opening and it wasn't apart when
it was hung (one presumes)...

...

Measure, drill, dowel, measure..."I wonder if the RO is
square"...Glue, clamp, measure, adjust..."I wonder if the RO is
square"...Glue, clamp, measure, adjust..."I wonder if the RO is
square"...carry it up the stairs, go have lunch..."I wonder if the RO
is square".

Of course, maybe that's just me.

That's just you...

But how would you plan on compensating on the floor, anyway,
realistically?

If the opening was/is much out of square when it was hung, it'll have
already been trimmed to fit (or never fit anyway). *If he puts it back
together as it was originally he'll have the same door as it was then in
the same opening barring whatever settling has happened. *That if any is
nothing he should take care of in putting the door together though;
that's a totally different issue.

As I've told OP numerous times, the point is to get the rails back to
meeting the stiles in their original locations and full pulled together.
* If (as I've already noted multiple times) the door has been trimmed to
fit a non-square opening he'll find that out when he measures the to
sides' respective lengths as well as the width at the top and bottom--if
it's been trimmed then it won't be really square even though the joints
fit correctly--that'll be the measurement he wants to fit the hole
though or at least very close.

But even if it isn't a square opening, what's so tough about trimming a
wooden door that you would go to extremes to mis-assemble one to
compensate??????????????

--

Maybe we don't know how many times the door has been trimmed to
compensate for an ever changing RO shape.

Somewhere in this ridiculously long 3-threaded monster I believe that
he said the door was trimmed to account for the sag which only worked
for a short time. I don't recall but maybe it was trimmed again.

Maybe the scraping on the floor is partially due to the door sagging
and partially due to RO settlement. He could go through the trouble of
squaring up the door only to find that the RO is so out that he ends
up with gaps around the door.

Who knows?

It just seems so logical to me to know what I'm starting with and to
have accounted for all variables, within reason. In the time that you
and I have gone back and forth just this afternoon, either of us could
have checked his door for square and at least know how that factors
into it, if at all.

Heck, I may go home and check a few doors just to get it out of my
system! ;-)

On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 04:57:42 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Jul 18, 2:24*am, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Jul 17, 11:21*pm, Puddin' Man wrote:





I made another pass thru the Restore today, and came up empty.

Also made concerted effort to split off the hinge stile from the rest and
partially failed. It more-or-less separated itself at the bottom, and the
intermediate rails separated, but the stile wouldn't come free of the top rail.
The lock stile did separate on the other side of the top rail. The pattern of
the joint is very intricate, and it doesn't wanna break. What did they use to
bind such stuff back in 1955? Glue? Epoxy?? What (if any) chemical can I use to
break the joint???

It would seem if the stile is seperated everywhere but
at the top, you could pry it apart enough to get a saw
blade in to cut the dowels off no? Then drill them out.

-Not- what I wanna do!



Y'all may or may-not be interested in the simple fact that I've been
studiously trying to avoid the business of "trying to stuff a square
peg in a round hole" which many responses have suggested. It looked
really simple when I started ("just replace the flogging door, f'crissake!").
Now it looks a mess.

Do they even *make* exterior pre-hungs measuring 30 x (80-?) x 1 3/4"? Would it
*really* fit 32 x 80 opening?? How expensive???

If the existing opening is 32x80 and square, why isn't
buying a new door only, not pre-hung, possible?

I looked (Lowes, HD, etc) and couldn't find one suitable.
Closest I came was a steel-skin from HD.

I know
you've indicated you think thickness is a big issue,
but everyone here has told you it isn't. At least not
from anything we've heard so far.

For crissake, it depends on hinge placement.

P

"Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."

I used a Stanley Carpenters Square (solid steel) to assess square
on the RO. The hinges are in the way on 1 side and I didn't have
time to remove them. It wasn't necessary anyway.

The opening is sufficiently square for this application.

The Stanley square is not square. It is 90 degrees plus/minus
something like .0000001. Everything is relevant.

If you think I cannot assess "square" for this application, I
have no idea what you are doing in this thread.

P

On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 09:28:17 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03 wrote:

The one thing I see missing (can you actually see something that is
missing?) in your post is any mention of checking the RO for square.

I'm sure you don't want to read back through all three threads so I'll
give you a recap:

Nothing the OP has said gives me (or others) any confidence that he
knows whether the RO is square or not.

He has said it "appears square" and he has said that the "non-hinge
side is square" but that he can't check if the hinge side is square
because the "hinges are needed for security".

We can't figure out what he means by that and he has not responded to
numerous requests to explain it.

He might use copious amounts of "patience, patience, patience" getting
the door square only to find that it doesn't fit because the RO isn't
square.

"Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."

On 7/18/2012 2:40 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
....

It just seems so logical to me to know what I'm starting with and to
have accounted for all variables,...

But, in _reassembling_ the door, what can you do about it anyway? The
answer is, "effectively nothing". The pieces fit where they belong,
period. Done. Finis.

They don't/won't fit where they don't belong and you can't really alter
that w/o completely making new ones or grossly altering the existing.

See other note amplifying the outer rails/bottom stile perhaps
having already been trimmed...but to take away the suspense the short
story is "it doesn't matter" (yet).

--

On Jul 18, 3:37*pm, Puddin' Man wrote:
On Tue, 17 Jul 2012 23:24:16 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03 wrote:
If you want to stick with a 30 x 80 door, you'll probably need to
raise the header.

Exactly how tall is your RO? 80-? Is not a number.

It's 80". The ? was meant to represent the difference between
the pre-hung height and it's door height. Is this diff.
standard? What is it? 2" like the door diff.?

* P

"Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."

If your RO is 32" x 80", I feel that you have at least 4 choices, all
of which I believe have been suggested elsewhere in this 3-threaded
monster.

1 - Buy a shorter door. As I said earlier, Therma Tru, amongst others,
makes doors that are 30" x 78". Since the standard for a RO is 2
inches larger than the door and jamb (although doors can be squeezeed
into a smaller RO) a 32" x 80" RO is perfect for 30" x 78" pre-hung
door.

2 - Buy a 30" x 80" door and modify the header. Either cut out 2
inches from the existing header, re-enforcing across the top if
necessary, or taking it out and putting in a new one. You will
probably have to modify the exterior of the garage somewhat also.

3 - Buy an 30" x 80" pre-hung door and trim it down. I've done it with
wooden doors and with foam filled steel doors. 20-something years ago
I cut 2" off the top of a foam filled steel door for my shop entrance.
I saturated the exposed foam with polyurethane and never looked back.
The door opens in, so the foam is never exposed to the weather anyway.
The cut is on the top, so it never gets banged and it's never dented.

4 - Buy a 32" x 80" door slab and hang it just like your exisiting
door, beveling whatever needs to be beveled to get it to close. If you
need to extend the framing on the sides to account for the hinges and
latch, do so.

On Jul 18, 3:54*pm, dpb wrote:
On 7/18/2012 2:40 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
...

It just seems so logical to me to know what I'm starting with and to
have accounted for all variables,...

But, in _reassembling_ the door, what can you do about it anyway? *The
answer is, "effectively nothing". *The pieces fit where they belong,
period. *Done. *Finis.

They don't/won't fit where they don't belong and you can't really alter
that w/o completely making new ones or grossly altering the existing.

See other note amplifying the outer rails/bottom stile perhaps
having already been trimmed...but to take away the suspense the short
story is "it doesn't matter" (yet). *

--

I agree 99.9% that nothing can be done when reassembling the door. But
what about that 1 in 1000 chance that something could pop up while
checking the door for square that might make you do something
different - or perhaps not repair the door at all?

That's all I'm saying...and it's something I would do before tackling
the repair on the off chance that the exercise itself might turn up
something that could impact how I proceed. Since it can't possibly
hurt to know that information, but it could possibly help, why not
check it?

On 7/18/2012 2:33 PM, Puddin' Man wrote:
....

I had figgered on breaking all joints. It now doesn't look practical.

Often isn't (or needed)

Now, just work (gently so as to not screw up the cope cuts any more than
can avoid) to clean up all the surfaces of the old paint, dirt, etc.,
etc., until you're back to an original surface.

Any tips you can relate about "work (gently so as to not screw up ..."
would be much appreciated. I tap-tap with the mallet, and I grab
each piece in one hand and work back and forward, and that's
the end of my "technique".

I have yet to fully disengage a single piece. See photo.

Based on the first picture you're almost home...you've got the bottom
stile almost completely separate on the hinge side (lock side is covered
up) and you've gotten the joint broken and begun to move at the lock
side at the top. The intermediates have all moved quite nicely.

One thing that would help a lot would be if you had anything you could
use as a more solid work surface. If it were me, I would prefer at this
point to have the hinge side rail at the top clamped solidly to a fixed
surface so I could work specifically on the top rail lock side joint
more w/o everything else wanting (or, more precisely, being able to)
come along for the ride.

The working rocking is good, tapping is good, patience is better...

I make up a block of the matching cope and use it; lacking a shaper in
your case I'd make a poorman's substitute caul by gluing a piece of ply
(or better yet hardwood if you can machine something the right
thickness) that just snugly fits into the groove and is long enough to
keep the rest of the block from dinging up the cope. Make it 8" or so
long and 5=6" wide so you can hang onto it while hitting. Now you can
do more than just tap w/o danger of beating up the profile. Again
alternate between wiggling, driving, cussing in that order.

You're a long way from needing to do so yet by the looks of it, but if
one can get enough separation to finally get a hacksaw blade between the
end of the stile and the rail you can just go ahead and saw the dowels
off and then go after them...

Again, those joints that don't give are still solid enough they're going
to be ok w/o coming apart.


What tools did you use to clean out the joint surfaces? Aside from
a paint scraper (obviously needed)?

Really that's probably about the worst tool for this job--too big and
clumsy. I use several old chisels of various sizes (moderately sharp
but not dovetail joint cleanup sharp) pocket knife, dental tools/picks,
small rifflers, scrapers, whatever seems to fit the particular
situation. BTW, the chisels are mostly used in scraping, not so much as
trying to pare. Surprisingly, if you have an air compressor, high
pressure air w/ a very small nozzle tip is extremely effective including
lifting pain if there's the least gap under edge. Wear good eye and ear
protection for sure!!!!

....

I've not used a story stick. When I do a search, all I'm getting is
info on commercial products. If you can point me to a site where
they build their own, it'd help.

Nothing fancy needed at all...just a couple pieces of 1x, preferably
reasonably straight and flat and 1-1/2 - 2" wide will work just fine.
Cut an arrow pointy end on one end of each. To use, you just put the
ends in the corners and mark where the end of one is on the other. Make
a note as to what that mark measured; and you can reproduce that length
simply by lining the marks up again. You can get as sophisticated as
you want w/ making them to slide together w/ locking knobs, etc., etc.,
etc., but all that's really need is the two pieces and optionally a
small c-clamp. Nothing fancy at all...

....

Well, I'm working on it. Haven't ripped anything yet. But it's
frustrating. The wood exhibits unpredictable behavior, not
something I'm used to.

Old material tends to do that. Again when you're cleaning, try to
scrape more than pare to avoid digging...

I spent a significant period of time restoring ante- and reasonably
closely after post-bellum homes in Lynchburg, VA, years and years ago in
another life. I'm well acquainted w/ the frustrations (but the joy of
bringing back a hand-shaped panel door w/ 16" wide single-board panels
to it's original glory is well worth it...your door isn't a classic but
when it's done you'll get the same satisfaction!


....

I can work out one side on maybe 1/3 of the dowels (so far). They measure about
..599 to .623. Some fragment when I remove (see photo). Tend to come loose on
the rail (not stile) side. They are 4.5 +" long.
....

The only doweling jig I have won't handle this size.

There's a tool you are going to need--unless you can accurately
fabricate one other than simply reaming out the existing holes it's
impossible to keep stuff lined up well enough by hand.

If a dowel is solid and it doesn't want to come at all, I'll generally
leave it on that end on the assumption if it ain't broke now it's not
likely going to any time "real soon now".

....

Glad you are "staying aboard". I'll need all the help I can get before
this is over.
....

Truthfully, it looks like you're making good progress; just keep after
it. I don't think I've mentioned that it does take patience, have I?

--

On 7/18/2012 3:11 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Jul 18, 3:54 pm, wrote:
....

See other note amplifying the outer rails/bottom stile perhaps
having already been trimmed...but to take away the suspense the short
story is "it doesn't matter" (yet).
....

I agree 99.9% that nothing can be done when reassembling the door. But
what about that 1 in 1000 chance that something could pop up while
checking the door for square that might make you do something
different - or perhaps not repair the door at all?

That's all I'm saying...and it's something I would do before tackling
the repair on the off chance that the exercise itself might turn up
something that could impact how I proceed. Since it can't possibly
hurt to know that information, but it could possibly help, why not
check it?

Well, I look at it this way (and I've done this numerous times) -- the
door was in the opening and was, in fact, still functioning albeit not
perfectly when I decided to repair it.

Inspecting the door, I see it is fundamentally still in sound shape so,
ergo, it's going to be repaired.

As there's nothing effective I can do the opening until I'm ready to
rehang it, it doesn't matter so I go ahead and repair the door as well
as I can possibly do and then go hang it.

Whatever needs to be done at that point is/was going to have to be done
anyway and the decision about repairing vs replacing was made on the
condition of the door; again if the opening is so bad it needs rework
that is it's problem, not the door's.

Segregation of duties...

--

On 7/18/2012 3:32 PM, dpb wrote:
On 7/18/2012 2:33 PM, Puddin' Man wrote:
....
....

Any tips you can relate about "work (gently so as to not screw up ..."
would be much appreciated. I tap-tap with the mallet, and I grab
each piece in one hand and work back and forward, and that's
the end of my "technique".
....

One thing that would help a lot would be if you had anything you could
use as a more solid work surface. If it were me, I would prefer at this
point to have the hinge side rail at the top clamped solidly to a fixed
surface so I could work specifically on the top rail lock side joint
more w/o everything else wanting (or, more precisely, being able to)
come along for the ride.

The working rocking is good, tapping is good, patience is better...
....

Oh another trick that often helps (but be careful in application)...

Make up a hardwood or if can find a piece of plastic or other hard
material of right thickness and use a fairly short piece of it in the
flat section of the profile where the end of stile meets rail in the
initial gap. The serves as a fulcrum when doing the rocking to apply a
more direct inline force. As noted be cautious in how much force you
apply here; you can crush the profile by getting carried away...

If you can manage to hold one in on both the top and bottom sides of the
door all the better. Masking tape or similar ways can help here--be
creative there is "no one way" -- any way that works is the right way.

--

On 7/18/2012 3:32 PM, dpb wrote:
On 7/18/2012 2:33 PM, Puddin' Man wrote:
....

I make up a block of the matching cope and use it; lacking a shaper in
your case I'd make a poorman's substitute caul by gluing a piece of ply
(or better yet hardwood if you can machine something the right
thickness) that just snugly fits into the groove and is long enough to
keep the rest of the block from dinging up the cope. Make it 8" or so
long and 5=6" wide so you can hang onto it while hitting. Now you can do
more than just tap w/o danger of beating up the profile. Again alternate
between wiggling, driving, cussing in that order.

I used "long" too many times in the above---the idea is to put a piece
of the same thickness as the panel groove on a block to use as a caul
against which you can pound away with vigor w/o marring the profile of
the coping.

That can either be milled into a solid block or glue onto a block. It
needs to be _wide_ enough to stand proud of the profile when bottomed in
the groove; the whole block then needs to be long enough to spread the
blow out a little and big enough overall to hang onto and hit solidly in
place...

At the upper in is good where you need it as you've got access through
the removed lites.

Oh, another variation of the fulcrum in the crack--make up a longer
version of the above and place it across the door from one side to the
other and use it the same way as you bring the rails together at one end
it will separate them at the other. This is easiest if you can get the
vertical window muntin out by any chance w/o breaking it. (You will be
keeping track of which pieces-parts goes where won't you? I knew you
were ).

--


You're a long way from needing to do so yet by the looks of it, but if
one can get enough separation to finally get a hacksaw blade between the
end of the stile and the rail you can just go ahead and saw the dowels
off and then go after them...

Again, those joints that don't give are still solid enough they're going
to be ok w/o coming apart.


What tools did you use to clean out the joint surfaces? Aside from
a paint scraper (obviously needed)?

Really that's probably about the worst tool for this job--too big and
clumsy. I use several old chisels of various sizes (moderately sharp but
not dovetail joint cleanup sharp) pocket knife, dental tools/picks,
small rifflers, scrapers, whatever seems to fit the particular
situation. BTW, the chisels are mostly used in scraping, not so much as
trying to pare. Surprisingly, if you have an air compressor, high
pressure air w/ a very small nozzle tip is extremely effective including
lifting pain if there's the least gap under edge. Wear good eye and ear
protection for sure!!!!

....

I've not used a story stick. When I do a search, all I'm getting is
info on commercial products. If you can point me to a site where
they build their own, it'd help.

Nothing fancy needed at all...just a couple pieces of 1x, preferably
reasonably straight and flat and 1-1/2 - 2" wide will work just fine.
Cut an arrow pointy end on one end of each. To use, you just put the
ends in the corners and mark where the end of one is on the other. Make
a note as to what that mark measured; and you can reproduce that length
simply by lining the marks up again. You can get as sophisticated as you
want w/ making them to slide together w/ locking knobs, etc., etc.,
etc., but all that's really need is the two pieces and optionally a
small c-clamp. Nothing fancy at all...

....

Well, I'm working on it. Haven't ripped anything yet. But it's
frustrating. The wood exhibits unpredictable behavior, not
something I'm used to.

Old material tends to do that. Again when you're cleaning, try to scrape
more than pare to avoid digging...

I spent a significant period of time restoring ante- and reasonably
closely after post-bellum homes in Lynchburg, VA, years and years ago in
another life. I'm well acquainted w/ the frustrations (but the joy of
bringing back a hand-shaped panel door w/ 16" wide single-board panels
to it's original glory is well worth it...your door isn't a classic but
when it's done you'll get the same satisfaction!


....

I can work out one side on maybe 1/3 of the dowels (so far). They
measure about
..599 to .623. Some fragment when I remove (see photo). Tend to come
loose on
the rail (not stile) side. They are 4.5 +" long.
....

The only doweling jig I have won't handle this size.

There's a tool you are going to need--unless you can accurately
fabricate one other than simply reaming out the existing holes it's
impossible to keep stuff lined up well enough by hand.

If a dowel is solid and it doesn't want to come at all, I'll generally
leave it on that end on the assumption if it ain't broke now it's not
likely going to any time "real soon now".

....

Glad you are "staying aboard". I'll need all the help I can get before
this is over.
....

Truthfully, it looks like you're making good progress; just keep after
it. I don't think I've mentioned that it does take patience, have I?

--

On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 14:33:40 -0500, Puddin' Man
wrote:



http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/...07-2012004.jpg
http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/...07-2012005.jpg
http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/...07-2012006.jpg


Gentle wiggling will get it apart. Don't use a pry bar. Use
patience.
I already mentioned reconditioning with boiled linseed oil.
Here's something else I've done that works well.
Don't oversize drill the dowel holes.
Fill them with glued in dowel that fits as close as you can, but not
oversized. Them redrill. You can use smaller dowels, and maybe add a
couple. You said you have a dowel jig, so you can figure out what's
best.
Those old doors were "overbuilt."
If you clean well, recondition, and glue well, it'll be as strong as
the original. Just be patient, and it will come out well.

--
Vic

Well, I tap-tapped and wiggle-wiggled and actually got a tiny, tiny bit of
work done. The hinge stile/top rail came apart per pics:

http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/...07-2012003.jpg
http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/...07-2012002.jpg
http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/...07-2012001.jpg
http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/...07-2012004.jpg

I cleaned up the cope and dowel/holes a little and tried to dry-fit it back.
It wouldn't fit at all tight.

Right now I am more worried about the warp of the hinge stile than anything
else. Were any of your stiles or rails twisted or otherwise warped? If so,
how did you handle it?

If the warp is as pronounced as I fear, I could doing this thru X-mas. :-(

Thx,
P

"Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."

On 7/18/2012 10:29 PM, Puddin' Man wrote:
Well, I tap-tapped and wiggle-wiggled and actually got a tiny, tiny bit of
work done. The hinge stile/top rail came apart per pics:

....

I cleaned up the cope and dowel/holes a little and tried to dry-fit it back.
It wouldn't fit at all tight.

Well, if it's the section of the stile you show the edge of sitting on
the floor, of course it won't...there's all kinds of paint/dirt/crud
still there...clean up _all_ the edges and have surfaces to the point
you think you're ready to be reassembled before there's much of any
point and then you'll find the hangups...if there's any joint friction
at all, it'll take some clamp pressure or at least a mallet to bring it
together completely but the least little spot of paint or dirt is all it
takes--the mating surfaces have to be fully clean.

Right now I am more worried about the warp of the hinge stile than anything
else. Were any of your stiles or rails twisted or otherwise warped? If so,
how did you handle it?
....

I couldn't/didn't see anything in the pictures that looked out of
kilter...I'd have to see some indication of what the problem is to have
any way to judge.

--

On Jul 18, 3:42*pm, Puddin' Man wrote:
On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 04:57:42 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:





On Jul 18, 2:24*am, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Jul 17, 11:21*pm, Puddin' Man wrote:

I made another pass thru the Restore today, and came up empty.

Also made concerted effort to split off the hinge stile from the rest and
partially failed. It more-or-less separated itself at the bottom, and the
intermediate rails separated, but the stile wouldn't come free of the top rail.
The lock stile did separate on the other side of the top rail. The pattern of
the joint is very intricate, and it doesn't wanna break. What did they use to
bind such stuff back in 1955? Glue? Epoxy?? What (if any) chemical can I use to
break the joint???

It would seem if the stile is seperated everywhere but
at the top, you could pry it apart enough to get a saw
blade in to cut *the dowels off no? *Then drill them out.

-Not- what I wanna do!



Y'all may or may-not be interested in the simple fact that I've been
studiously trying to avoid the business of "trying to stuff a square
peg in a round hole" which many responses have suggested. It looked
really simple when I started ("just replace the flogging door, f'crissake!").
Now it looks a mess.

Do they even *make* exterior pre-hungs measuring 30 x (80-?) x 1 3/4"? Would it
*really* fit 32 x 80 opening?? How expensive???

If the existing opening is 32x80 and square, why isn't
buying a new door only, not pre-hung, possible?

I looked (Lowes, HD, etc) and couldn't find one suitable.
Closest I came was a steel-skin from HD.

I know
you've indicated you think thickness is a big issue,
but everyone here has told you it isn't. *At least not
from anything we've heard so far.

For crissake, it depends on hinge placement.



Last time I checked one side of the hinge goes on
the new door, at the edge. The other side of the hinge
goes on the door jamb, or in your case the door
rough opening because you have no jamb. Exactly like
they are on there now. I can
take any door in my house out and replace it with
a door that is 1/2" thicker. Everyone else here
has told you that it's not a problem either. You have
to move the stop molding, but I do not see why
hinges are an issue.

It would also be helpful if you could explain why
EXACTLY you think it won't work. First we just got
"I can't find a door that's suitable." Then upon repeated
questioning in an attempt to help you, we get
"All the new doors are thicker". Now it's on to
"For crissake, it depends on hinge placement."

Is it that hard to explain what exactly you think
the fitment issue is that prevents you from using
a door that is thicker?

Puddin' Man wrote:
I know
you've indicated you think thickness is a big issue,
but everyone here has told you it isn't. At least not
from anything we've heard so far.

For crissake, it depends on hinge placement.

H I N G E S A R E M O V E A B L E.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out...
http://www.floridaloghouse.net

Puddin' Man wrote:

I've not used a story stick. When I do a search, all I'm getting is
info on commercial products. If you can point me to a site where
they build their own, it'd help.

A. Take a stick. It needs to be...

1. Long enough
2. Wide and thick enough so it doesn't flop around. A 1x2 will work

B. Lay the stick across the two points you want to measure and mark their
positions on the stick

C. Lay the stick across the other two points you want to measure. If the
marks line up the two distances are equal.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out...
http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On Jul 19, 9:50*am, "dadiOH" wrote:
Puddin' Man wrote:
I know
you've indicated you think thickness is a big issue,
but everyone here has told you it isn't. *At least not
from anything we've heard so far.

For crissake, it depends on hinge placement.

H I N G E S * *A R E * *M O V E A B L E.



I don't see that the hinges even need to be moved or
taken off from the door frame side. All I see is chisling
or mortising mounting spots for the door side of the
hinges in the new door.

On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 23:30:22 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 7/18/2012 10:29 PM, Puddin' Man wrote:
Well, I tap-tapped and wiggle-wiggled and actually got a tiny, tiny bit of
work done. The hinge stile/top rail came apart per pics:

...

I cleaned up the cope and dowel/holes a little and tried to dry-fit it back.
It wouldn't fit at all tight.

Well, if it's the section of the stile you show the edge of sitting on
the floor, of course it won't...there's all kinds of paint/dirt/crud
still there...clean up _all_ the edges and have surfaces to the point
you think you're ready to be reassembled before there's much of any
point and then you'll find the hangups...if there's any joint friction
at all, it'll take some clamp pressure or at least a mallet to bring it
together completely but the least little spot of paint or dirt is all it
takes--the mating surfaces have to be fully clean.

Apologies for the confusion: those pics were taken -before- I started
cleaning up the joint surfaces.

But you can see the intricacy of the cope. I did what I could, but mostly
the wood is just very much weathered. What would you use to clean such
a cope?

Right now I am more worried about the warp of the hinge stile than anything
else. Were any of your stiles or rails twisted or otherwise warped? If so,
how did you handle it?
...

I couldn't/didn't see anything in the pictures that looked out of
kilter...I'd have to see some indication of what the problem is to have
any way to judge.

Here's 2 pics of the hinge stile put back together after survey cleanup,
replacing dowels, and (pipe) clamping. See where the light shines under the
rule? That illustrates the warp.

http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/...07-2012001.jpg
http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/...07-2012002.jpg

The next pic illustrates that the door is much nearer square.

http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/...07-2012003.jpg

but the next pic (again) illustrates the warp or drop-off across the bottom
of the hinge stile.

http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/...07-2012004.jpg

I think it's mostly the dowels causing the warp, b/c the stile (thankfully) looks
mostly flat when placed on the bsmt floor. But I dunno what to do about it.

Your candid opinion, kind sir?

Thx,
P

"Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."

Puddin' Man writes:

On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 23:30:22 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 7/18/2012 10:29 PM, Puddin' Man wrote:
Well, I tap-tapped and wiggle-wiggled and actually got a tiny, tiny bit of
work done. The hinge stile/top rail came apart per pics:
....
http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/...07-2012004.jpg

I think it's mostly the dowels causing the warp, b/c the stile (thankfully) looks
mostly flat when placed on the bsmt floor. But I dunno what to do about it.

Your candid opinion, kind sir?

I think the technical verdict is that the wood has turned to crap.

Time to toss the door and buy a new one.

--
Dan Espen

On Thu, 19 Jul 2012 10:11:36 -0400, "dadiOH" wrote:

Puddin' Man wrote:

I've not used a story stick. When I do a search, all I'm getting is
info on commercial products. If you can point me to a site where
they build their own, it'd help.

A. Take a stick. It needs to be...

1. Long enough
2. Wide and thick enough so it doesn't flop around. A 1x2 will work

B. Lay the stick across the two points you want to measure and mark their
positions on the stick

C. Lay the stick across the other two points you want to measure. If the
marks line up the two distances are equal.

Simple enough.

What if there's tons of stuff in the way of accurately marking? It's
like the diagonal on the door is 86 1/8", but there's stuff in the way of
marking the (32") width on the stick?

I know, I know. Make a second stick. Eh?

Thx,
P

"Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."

On Thu, 19 Jul 2012 17:38:07 -0400, Dan Espen
wrote:

Puddin' Man writes:

On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 23:30:22 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 7/18/2012 10:29 PM, Puddin' Man wrote:
Well, I tap-tapped and wiggle-wiggled and actually got a tiny, tiny bit of
work done. The hinge stile/top rail came apart per pics:
...
http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/...07-2012004.jpg

I think it's mostly the dowels causing the warp, b/c the stile (thankfully) looks
mostly flat when placed on the bsmt floor. But I dunno what to do about it.

Your candid opinion, kind sir?

I think the technical verdict is that the wood has turned to crap.

Time to toss the door and buy a new one.

Are you suggesting to install a pre-hung door? This has already been
given as advice. The OP has stated that the frame is square by
looking at it (appears). He has not checked the RO frame for square or
plumb.

Sometimes you have to give up the ghost and find competent installers.
I've said I could have put in 20 new doors by now. At this point it
would be 25 doors.

The OP is wasting his time putting lipstick on a Billy goat.

(not being derogatory towards him -- but realistic)

This thread has been through many days of discussions this month
alone. Maybe even from June?

On 7/19/2012 4:21 PM, Puddin' Man wrote:
....

I think it's mostly the dowels causing the warp, b/c the stile (thankfully) looks
mostly flat when placed on the bsmt floor. But I dunno what to do about it.

Your candid opinion, kind sir?
....

Have you fitted tight dowels? If the dowels were shrunken or the holes
hogged out as we talked before then sure, there's going to be play there.

The last picture shows what appears to perhaps be significant structural
damage to the wood itself that has not been apparent in any previous
pictures. If that is in fact the case, then either you have to repair
it or otherwise work around it...

As pointed out before, you've got to get back to solid material and
tight-fits one way or another--I suggested going larger as it's easiest
if the wood is basically solid; at least one other suggested regluing in
dowels and redrilling them--that _MIGHT_ work but ime generally all you
get is the remnants of the that attempted plug spinning in the hole as
that thick of a glue line rarely has enough strength to hold.

If it's not solid right around the holes but is elsewhere, there's where
I've on occasion gone to replacing the dowels w/ loose tenons but
connecting between adjacent holes to house them.

You just have to be creative and deal with what you have and figure out
what will work for the particular case.

As for the coping cuts and cleaning them up -- as noted, it's a
combination of many tools and patience. I'm lucky in having a fully
equipped shop and can find scrapers or make one to fit virtually any
cope--lacking that it's more time consuming. Eventually w/ care you can
finally sand lightly to smooth things all out again but be careful to
not smear the profiles...

But, if there isn't enough solid wood in the stile and bottom rail then
w/o the facility to make a replacement fill-in piece or whole new stile
or rail (or both) you have come to an impasse. I can't tell from here
of course, but that last picture doesn't look good just from the surface
and the missing section...that image never showed up before.

--

On 7/19/2012 4:43 PM, Puddin' Man wrote:
On Thu, 19 Jul 2012 10:11:36 -0400, wrote:
....

A. Take a stick. It needs to be...
....

What if there's tons of stuff in the way of accurately marking? It's
like the diagonal on the door is 86 1/8", but there's stuff in the way of
marking the (32") width on the stick?

I know, I know. Make a second stick. Eh?
....

He's described the flat surface technique; see my earlier response
upthread from when you first asked on the simpler way to use two for
inside measurements like the diagonal or the inside width...surface
obstacles aren't, then.

--

Oren writes:

On Thu, 19 Jul 2012 17:38:07 -0400, Dan Espen
wrote:

Puddin' Man writes:

On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 23:30:22 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 7/18/2012 10:29 PM, Puddin' Man wrote:
Well, I tap-tapped and wiggle-wiggled and actually got a tiny, tiny bit of
work done. The hinge stile/top rail came apart per pics:
...
http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/...07-2012004.jpg

I think it's mostly the dowels causing the warp, b/c the stile (thankfully) looks
mostly flat when placed on the bsmt floor. But I dunno what to do about it.

Your candid opinion, kind sir?

I think the technical verdict is that the wood has turned to crap.

Time to toss the door and buy a new one.

Are you suggesting to install a pre-hung door? This has already been
given as advice. The OP has stated that the frame is square by
looking at it (appears). He has not checked the RO frame for square or
plumb.

Pre-hung or not, don't care.

The existing door's wood looks like it's shot.
I don't know if it's dry rot or something else but once wood
stops being hard and can soak up moisture like a sponge and changes
shape, its done.

I know the OP is being stubborn.
Good for him, but eventually he's going to have to admit defeat.

--
Dan Espen