Puddin' Man wrote:
Here's 2 pics of the hinge stile put back together after survey
cleanup, replacing dowels, and (pipe) clamping. See where the light
shines under the rule? That illustrates the warp.

Have you already glued stuff together? Are the stile and rail tight
together on the other side (they are not on the photo side). If not glued
together, you can (should be able to) fix it by clamping to pull the two
pieces together; i.e, clamp pad high on the hinge stile, lower on lock
stile. It probably got the way it is because you racked it when clamping.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out...
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On Thu, 19 Jul 2012 17:52:01 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 7/19/2012 4:21 PM, Puddin' Man wrote:
...

I think it's mostly the dowels causing the warp, b/c the stile (thankfully) looks
mostly flat when placed on the bsmt floor. But I dunno what to do about it.

Your candid opinion, kind sir?
...

Have you fitted tight dowels? If the dowels were shrunken or the holes
hogged out as we talked before then sure, there's going to be play there.

The dowels feel light as a feather. All look badly weathered. Of 10,
7 stayed in the stile (but some may well have shifted), none in rails.
They don't really look to be uniform diameter, so I guess they've
shrunk.

The last picture shows what appears to perhaps be significant structural
damage to the wood itself that has not been apparent in any previous
pictures. If that is in fact the case, then either you have to repair
it or otherwise work around it...

You speak here of the warp.

As pointed out before, you've got to get back to solid material and
tight-fits one way or another--I suggested going larger as it's easiest
if the wood is basically solid; at least one other suggested regluing in
dowels and redrilling them--that _MIGHT_ work but ime generally all you
get is the remnants of the that attempted plug spinning in the hole as
that thick of a glue line rarely has enough strength to hold.

I had hoped to be able to at least remove the dowels and evaluate
whether to drill and use larger dowels or ?, but when I try to ease
a dowel out, it splinters. Many rails show more weathering than the
stiles. I'm half afraid of doing much of anything with the dowels
for fear of making things worse. A couple have already splintered.

If it's not solid right around the holes but is elsewhere, there's where
I've on occasion gone to replacing the dowels w/ loose tenons but
connecting between adjacent holes to house them.

I dunno if that's the way to go, here. Drilling into the rails looks
problematical.

You just have to be creative and deal with what you have and figure out
what will work for the particular case.

Wish me luck!

As for the coping cuts and cleaning them up -- as noted, it's a
combination of many tools and patience. I'm lucky in having a fully
equipped shop and can find scrapers or make one to fit virtually any
cope--lacking that it's more time consuming. Eventually w/ care you can
finally sand lightly to smooth things all out again but be careful to
not smear the profiles...

I haven't mangled any, yet ...

But, if there isn't enough solid wood in the stile and bottom rail then
w/o the facility to make a replacement fill-in piece or whole new stile
or rail (or both) you have come to an impasse. I can't tell from here
of course, but that last picture doesn't look good just from the surface
and the missing section...that image never showed up before.

I probably should've noticed it and shot some pics before this, but I
hoped the cleanup would help and wanted to try that first. I tried
gently bending the dowels a little: nothin' shakin'.

Right now, I'm inclined to just clean up a little more, slam it all back
together glued, with pony clamps and a couple hardwood boards clamped on each
side of the warp (in the pic). I guess it makes sense to clamp the hardwood
boards first, then tighten up the pony clamp across the mid-section.

Or maybe add a sizable plate steel reinforcer over the warp (across stile and
kickplate rail) on the inside of door , held with deck screws.

Did you say it might make sense to employ a diagonal pony clamp to pull
it into square?

You really think Titebond III would hold if I get it all properly clamped?
There will be a lot of pressure on the warp joint. How fast does it set up?

Thanks,
P

"Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."

Puddin' Man writes:

I had hoped to be able to at least remove the dowels and evaluate
whether to drill and use larger dowels or ?, but when I try to ease
a dowel out, it splinters.

The dowels, like the rest of the door are rotted beyond recovery.

Haven't you dealt with rotted wood before?

Junk the door. It's dead.

--
Dan Espen

On 7/19/2012 10:27 PM, Puddin' Man wrote:
....

You really think Titebond III would hold if I get it all properly clamped?
There will be a lot of pressure on the warp joint. How fast does it set up?
....

Not unless you have well fitting joints, not for any length of time, no.
It (and very little else other than some specialty epoxies) is not
intended for filling gaps and has little strength as a material
itself--it glues by forming bonds across (very) small distances.

It's what I've told you before about the dowels--if they're not solid
and into solid wood then the job is to get back to solid material one
way or another and fit what is needed to do so.

You've really given no indication of just how bad the material
surrounding them is--if it is just crumbly or rotted completely away,
your only real choice is to get back to solid material and fill in w/
new or go to some of the restorative products. At that time, given
their cost and that this is not a door of any architectural significance
you're best recourse may well be to go to the replacement.

Wish could get hands on feel for just how good/bad it is, but one can
judge only so much by photos alone, sorry...

--

On Jul 19, 11:56*pm, Dan Espen wrote:
Puddin' Man writes:
I had hoped to be able to at least remove the dowels and evaluate
whether to drill and use larger dowels or ?, but when I try to ease
a dowel out, it splinters.

The dowels, like the rest of the door are rotted beyond recovery.

Haven't you dealt with rotted wood before?

Junk the door. *It's dead.

--
Dan Espen

Even if he doesn't junk it, I don't understand the problem with
the dowels splintering. If the door is that bad, then you have
two choices. Either buy a new door or just tear into the old
one, splinters be damned, until you get it apart to where
you have sound wood and can see a path to succesfully
fixing it. I could do that in an hour.

Of course he's focused on the old door because he claims
there is some "problem" with putting hinges on and
hanging a new door. And he refuses to consider a pre-hung.

On Jul 19, 8:14*pm, "dadiOH" wrote:
Puddin' Man wrote:
Here's 2 pics of the hinge stile put back together after survey
cleanup, replacing dowels, and (pipe) clamping. See where the light
shines under the rule? That illustrates the warp.

Have you already glued stuff together? *Are the stile and rail tight
together on the other side (they are not on the photo side). *If not glued
together, you can (should be able to) fix it by clamping to pull the two
pieces together; i.e, clamp pad high on the hinge stile, lower on lock
stile. *It probably got the way it is because you racked it when clamping.


That's what I was wondering too. Is that piece really warped?
Or is it how it's joining that's creating a tilt? If it's the
latter with maybe some shims put in and correctly clamping it,
it would seem to me he could get it back to being straight.

And like you say, hope he hasn't glued it.

But there are other unknowns here too. Like the condtion
of the wood in question. Only so much you can tell from
pics....

On 7/20/2012 9:56 AM, wrote:
....

Of course he's focused on the old door because he claims
there is some "problem" with putting hinges on and
hanging a new door. And he refuses to consider a pre-hung.

The difficulty w/ a prehung in his app is that the RO is also the
finished opening so he'd lose at least 2" in width which is probably not
desirable.

I do agree it shouldn't be hard to find a replacement...

--

On 7/20/2012 10:03 AM, wrote:
On Jul 19, 8:14 pm, wrote:
....

... It probably got the way it is because you racked it when clamping.


That's what I was wondering too. Is that piece really warped?
Or is it how it's joining that's creating a tilt? If it's the
latter with maybe some shims put in and correctly clamping it,
it would seem to me he could get it back to being straight.

And like you say, hope he hasn't glued it.

But there are other unknowns here too. Like the condtion
of the wood in question. Only so much you can tell from
pics....

No clamps in sight altho he may have used one to pull it in initially.

Pretty clearly imo it's just hanging there because the dowels aren't
fully tight in the holes--he's indicated that because of his
inexperience in doing such stuff he's been reluctant to just dive in and
do a widespread replacement to date so he's just pushed it back together
as it came apart without yet doing the rest of the necessary restoration
work to get a solid joint.

The worrisome part isn't that it isn't in line at this point (and it
isn't a "warp" it's just loose and drooping; if he were to clamp it it
would draw up into place against the opposing coping surfaces) it's that
there's nothing at the present sufficiently tight to glue together.

--

On 7/19/2012 10:27 PM, Puddin' Man wrote:
....

The dowels feel light as a feather. All look badly weathered. Of 10,
7 stayed in the stile (but some may well have shifted), none in rails.
They don't really look to be uniform diameter, so I guess they've
shrunk.
....

As pointed out before, you've got to get back to solid material and
tight-fits one way or another--I suggested going larger as it's easiest
if the wood is basically solid; at least one other suggested regluing in
dowels and redrilling them--that _MIGHT_ work but ime generally all you
get is the remnants of the that attempted plug spinning in the hole as
that thick of a glue line rarely has enough strength to hold.

I had hoped to be able to at least remove the dowels and evaluate
whether to drill and use larger dowels or ?, but when I try to ease
a dowel out, it splinters. Many rails show more weathering than the
stiles. I'm half afraid of doing much of anything with the dowels
for fear of making things worse. A couple have already splintered.

Last point first--what can you make worse? You didn't have a working
door; unless you fix it you still don't have a working door...

That they tend to come out of the rails and not the stiles is owing to
that the in the stile they're along/parallel to the grain; in the rail
it's almost entirely end grain. That is much less strong.

Unless the matching hole on the other side for the end that is
protruding fits press-tight, you've not got it ready for reassembly yet.

To repeat yet again, you've got to have a snug fit for them to be ready
to accept glue and when that happens and they're lined up properly then
the rail will go back in place and you won't have any sag. If you note
carefully, you'll see there was no glue on the coping joint
surfaces--that's end grain on the stiles and wouldn't hold any way so
they don't even bother. It's the dowel joints that have to be solid in
order to put the thing back together again.

I repeat--until you have those joints tight one way or another there's
nothing to be gained by trial assembly other than you can verify you
have clean surfaces.

It all hinges on whether you have enough solid material left to be able
to do that.

Don't worry about saving the dowels at all -- I generally just saw 'em
off unless I'm reusing a particular one and use the dowel jig and drill
'em out. Again, use a pilot bit first to ensure alignment to keep them
centered.

Depending on what you have to work with, on something like this if there
are multiple identical stiles it can even be worth the time/trouble to
make a jig that has the spacings for them already in it rather than
doing each one individually.

--

On Jul 20, 12:08*pm, dpb wrote:
On 7/20/2012 10:03 AM, wrote: On Jul 19, 8:14 pm, *wrote:

...

... It probably got the way it is because you racked it when clamping.

That's what I was wondering too. *Is that piece really warped?
Or is it how it's joining that's creating a tilt? *If it's the
latter with maybe some shims put in and correctly clamping it,
it would seem to me he could get it back to being straight.

And like you say, hope he hasn't glued it.

But there are other unknowns here too. *Like the condtion
of the wood in question. *Only so much you can tell from
pics....

No clamps in sight altho he may have used one to pull it in initially.

Pretty clearly imo it's just hanging there because the dowels aren't
fully tight in the holes--he's indicated that because of his
inexperience in doing such stuff he's been reluctant to just dive in and
do a widespread replacement to date so he's just pushed it back together
as it came apart without yet doing the rest of the necessary restoration
work to get a solid joint.

The worrisome part isn't that it isn't in line at this point (and it
isn't a "warp" it's just loose and drooping; if he were to clamp it it
would draw up into place against the opposing coping surfaces) it's that
there's nothing at the present sufficiently tight to glue together.

--

I agree with all of the above. Puddin is calling it a warp, but
from the pics I agree with your assessment. If we were there,
we'd just hold the bottom piece up, see that it isn't warped,
just hanging, that it fits, then figure out if there is solid wood
there and how to attach it securely, glue and clamp it square.

On Fri, 20 Jul 2012 11:31:42 -0500, dpb wrote:

Methinks y'all tend to get a little off-course. Maybe the following will
help.

1.) Nothing has been glued.
2.) The last set of pics were with 1 pony clamp across the mid-section.
3.) The best nutshell description of the wood is "just badly weathered".
4.) The "warp" *appears* to be caused by mis-alignment of the dowels down
at the hinge-stile/kickplate rail joint. The stile mates about 1/16"
above the rail.
5.) I have no "Magic Wand". I lack both the equipment and skill of dpb.

In particular, I have no dowel jig that handles this size dowel. Doubt
if I can make/buy one.

I'll see if I can pick up 5/8" dowel and drill bit today. If so, I'll
experiment on one of the splintered dowels.

On Thu, 19 Jul 2012 22:56:59 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 7/19/2012 10:27 PM, Puddin' Man wrote:
...

You really think Titebond III would hold if I get it all properly clamped?
There will be a lot of pressure on the warp joint. How fast does it set up?
...

Not unless you have well fitting joints, not for any length of time, no.
It (and very little else other than some specialty epoxies) is not
intended for filling gaps and has little strength as a material
itself--it glues by forming bonds across (very) small distances.

It's what I've told you before about the dowels--if they're not solid
and into solid wood then the job is to get back to solid material one
way or another and fit what is needed to do so.

You've really given no indication of just how bad the material
surrounding them is--if it is just crumbly or rotted completely away,
your only real choice is to get back to solid material and fill in w/
new or go to some of the restorative products. At that time, given
their cost and that this is not a door of any architectural significance
you're best recourse may well be to go to the replacement.

The replacement is always an (undesirable) option.

Wish could get hands on feel for just how good/bad it is, but one can
judge only so much by photos alone, sorry...
===========================
On Fri, 20 Jul 2012 11:31:42 -0500, dpb wrote:

stiles. I'm half afraid of doing much of anything with the dowels
for fear of making things worse. A couple have already splintered.

Last point first--what can you make worse? You didn't have a working
door; unless you fix it you still don't have a working door...

I could waste a lot of $ and time ...

That they tend to come out of the rails and not the stiles is owing to
that the in the stile they're along/parallel to the grain; in the rail
it's almost entirely end grain. That is much less strong.

Unless the matching hole on the other side for the end that is
protruding fits press-tight, you've not got it ready for reassembly yet.

To repeat yet again, you've got to have a snug fit for them to be ready
to accept glue and when that happens and they're lined up properly then
the rail will go back in place and you won't have any sag. If you note
carefully, you'll see there was no glue on the coping joint
surfaces--that's end grain on the stiles and wouldn't hold any way so
they don't even bother. It's the dowel joints that have to be solid in
order to put the thing back together again.

I repeat--until you have those joints tight one way or another there's
nothing to be gained by trial assembly other than you can verify you
have clean surfaces.

It all hinges on whether you have enough solid material left to be able
to do that.

Don't worry about saving the dowels at all -- I generally just saw 'em
off unless I'm reusing a particular one and use the dowel jig and drill
'em out. Again, use a pilot bit first to ensure alignment to keep them
centered.

You wanna elaborate on that last statement?

Depending on what you have to work with, on something like this if there
are multiple identical stiles it can even be worth the time/trouble to
make a jig that has the spacings for them already in it rather than
doing each one individually.

Easier said than done.

P


"Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."

dpb wrote:

That they tend to come out of the rails and not the stiles is owing to
that the in the stile they're along/parallel to the grain; in the rail
it's almost entirely end grain. That is much less strong.


Excuse me? Are you saying that a dowel glued into the rail is less strong?
If so, I beg to differ.


--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out...
http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On Jul 20, 1:54*pm, Puddin' Man wrote:

Methinks y'all tend to get a little off-course.

All I can say to that statement is "Wow!"

dpb wrote:
On 7/19/2012 10:27 PM, Puddin' Man wrote:
...

You really think Titebond III would hold if I get it all properly
clamped? There will be a lot of pressure on the warp joint. How fast
does it set up? ...

Not unless you have well fitting joints, not for any length of time,
no. It (and very little else other than some specialty epoxies) is
not intended for filling gaps and has little strength as a material
itself--it glues by forming bonds across (very) small distances.

One doesn't need a specialty epoxy, any will do when thickend with fumed
silica (Cab-o-Sil, Aero-Sil), micro balloons, wood dust or any of numerous
other things. It bridges gaps wonderfully so why not use it?
___________

It's what I've told you before about the dowels--if they're not solid
and into solid wood then the job is to get back to solid material one
way or another and fit what is needed to do so.

Or just give up and use lags
_______________

As long as I am writing, let me mention (to OP) your new (apparently)
framing square.

You *can* use it, as you are in one photo, by laying it flat across stuff
and jiggling the legs flush with what you are trying to check but that is
way harder - and subject to error if you don't jiggle "just right" - than
just putting the inside edge of one leg against one edge of the subject and
then moving the square so that the other leg touches the edge of the other
subject piece.

Having seen how you were using the square I now understand why you couldn't
check the door opening because of the hinge (knuckle). Of course, there are
three OTHER corners you could have used where the hinge would not interfere
but I'd skip them too...just stick the outside of one leg of the square
against the broad face of the side - not the edge - in the opening and move
the square until the other leg contacts the broad face of the top piece. No
jiggling necessary.

HTH & HAND


--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out...
http://www.floridaloghouse.net

Puddin' Man wrote:

You really think Titebond III would hold if I get it all properly
clamped? There will be a lot of pressure on the warp joint.

The joint isn't "warped". It is offset because you didn't put the pieces
together evenly. When they are, there won't be any - none, zero, nada -
lateral pressure across the joint.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out...
http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On 7/20/2012 12:54 PM, Puddin' Man wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jul 2012 11:31:42 -0500, wrote:
....

4.) The "warp" *appears* to be caused by mis-alignment of the dowels down
at the hinge-stile/kickplate rail joint. The stile mates about 1/16"
above the rail.
....

It will only be misaligned if there's enough play in the dowels to allow
it. If pulled together tight the matching coping surfaces will bring it
back in plane.

At this point, this is a cosmetic issue only and will be resolved when
the basic joinery is repaired.


In particular, I have no dowel jig that handles this size dowel. Doubt
if I can make/buy one.

Sure you can...

http://www.dowl-it.com/dowl-it-pg2.html

I'll see if I can pick up 5/8" dowel and drill bit today. If so, I'll
experiment on one of the splintered dowels.

Get a brad point or Forstner style not just a twist drill.

It is possible to get by w/ a 1/2" because once they're drilled out the
bit will be self-aligning in the existing hole if careful. You have to
be very cautious in keeping the alignment correct rather than letting
them wander off the proper direction w/o a guide, however.

....

Don't worry about saving the dowels at all -- I generally just saw 'em
off unless I'm reusing a particular one and use the dowel jig and drill
'em out. Again, use a pilot bit first to ensure alignment to keep them
centered.

You wanna elaborate on that last statement?

Use the smallest size you have w/ a brad point to get centered and be
able to check that you are centered. That way if you are just a tad off
you have a chance to correct it before you've reamed so much of the hole
out that when you recenter and drill out you're left w/ an oblong hole
instead of round...

Depending on what you have to work with, on something like this if there
are multiple identical stiles it can even be worth the time/trouble to
make a jig that has the spacings for them already in it rather than
doing each one individually.

Easier said than done.
....

It can be done w/ the single jig and some time/care. Once done once it
will save on the time that otherwise will be required to get every
single hole placement correct.

I snipped for brevity and lost the context of the comment about time &
$$...it is time but unless you're being paid for doing something else w/
the time that's not much in the way of money...and, if you don't have a
door the comparison is against either purchasing a new one for DIY
installation or paying a carpenter/handyman to do the job for you.

What's the cost of a few dowels, a drill bit or two and some glue in
comparison?

You didn't have a working door anyway or weren't going to for long even
if it was able to be jammed into the opening so something's gotta' give
to make progress here.

Apparently this is a stretch but it _is_ doable...it just takes a
willingness to try and then to be attentive to detail in what are doing
as doing it. Worst come to worst you do mess up a hole or two--you do
go back and plug it and then drill it out again. Hopefully you don't
need to do that more than once or twice at most.

I'll admit one case from years ago here...this was an early Federal
house in Lynchburg w/ a handcarved door that was in _very_ bad shape on
the bottom stile. The choice was to fabricated some new replacement
parts or try to salvage as much of the original as possible.
Fortunately, this on was not on the National Registry or in a local
formal preservation district so we were not restricted by covenant or
some other outside agent in what we could do other than try to retain
the character as much as practical.

The homeowner's choice was that they liked the idea of as much original
material as possible to be retained so since this door panel had very
little integrity left structurally, I soaked in one of the epoxy
restoration products similar to the following

http://www.abatron.com/buildingandrestorationproducts/woodrestorationmaintenance/liquidwood.html

and then bored a 1/4" hole completely through the door horizontally w/ a
specially-made extension done by brazing a bit onto a hardened rod in
three places, then counterbored and used a piece of 3/16" SS aircraft
cable to tie the pieces together. After plugging the holes and
finishing, it was difficult to tell(+)...I would _NOT_ recommend such
extremes for this door.

(+) No, I _don't_ know how long it survived--we were in Lynchburg once
about 15 yr after that restoration and the house had changed hands.
Driving by it _looked_ like the same door still on it... That's been
30+ yr since, now...

--

On Fri, 20 Jul 2012 11:06:46 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Jul 20, 1:54*pm, Puddin' Man wrote:

Methinks y'all tend to get a little off-course.

All I can say to that statement is "Wow!"

Gee wilikers :-\

On 7/20/2012 1:33 PM, dadiOH wrote:
....

One doesn't need a specialty epoxy, any will do when thickend with fumed
silica (Cab-o-Sil, Aero-Sil), micro balloons, wood dust or any of numerous
other things. It bridges gaps wonderfully so why not use it?
....

I don't have any experience w/ it that way as structural is why...

--

On 7/20/2012 10:54 AM, Puddin' Man wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jul 2012 11:31:42 -0500, dpb wrote:

Methinks y'all tend to get a little off-course. Maybe the following will
help.

1.) Nothing has been glued.
2.) The last set of pics were with 1 pony clamp across the mid-section.
3.) The best nutshell description of the wood is "just badly weathered".
4.) The "warp" *appears* to be caused by mis-alignment of the dowels down
at the hinge-stile/kickplate rail joint. The stile mates about 1/16"
above the rail.
5.) I have no "Magic Wand". I lack both the equipment and skill of dpb.

In particular, I have no dowel jig that handles this size dowel. Doubt
if I can make/buy one.

a dowel jig can be a couple of c clamps on a 2x4 with some holes drilled
in it in the appropriate places.

I'll see if I can pick up 5/8" dowel and drill bit today. If so, I'll
experiment on one of the splintered dowels.

On 7/20/2012 1:04 PM, dadiOH wrote:
dpb wrote:

That they tend to come out of the rails and not the stiles is owing to
that the in the stile they're along/parallel to the grain; in the rail
it's almost entirely end grain. That is much less strong.


Excuse me? Are you saying that a dowel glued into the rail is less strong?
If so, I beg to differ.

You can differ all you want but it doesn't change the fact (nor the
orientation of the grain)

Of course it is (weaker in the cross direction, that is)...it doesn't
have nearly the amount of long grain to bond against in solid wood. (As
noted below, in quality plywood or composites there isn't much if any
difference).

Believe it or not, they study this stuff...

Eckelman, C.A. 1969. Engineering concepts of single-pin dowel joint
design. Forest Prod. J. 19(12):52-60.

--1971. Bending strength and moment-rotation characteristics of two-pin
moment-resisting dowel joints. Forest Prod. J. 21(3):35-39.

--1979. Withdrawal strength of dowel joints: effect of shear strength.
Forest Prod. J. 29(1):48-52.

Are two of which I've known for quite some time--I couldn't find them
online in a quick search. They do this for the furniture manufacturers,
primarily, w/ certainly applications to stuff like these doors, etc.,
etc, etc., ...

I suspect there's also supporting data in the US FPL's landmark tome the
Handbook but it's humongeous and I didn't try to search just now...

Title: .Wood Handbook, Wood as an Engineering Material (29 Chapters)
Publication: Forest Products Laboratory. Wood handbook - Wood as an
engineering material. General Technical Report FPL-GTR-190. Madison,
WI: U.S. Department of Agriculture, Forest Service, Forest Products
Laboratory: 508 p. 2010

This kind of research is where the data comes from that "joint strength
increases with clamping pressure", too....

Interestingly enough, and as one might expect, when the substrate is
furniture-grade plywood or many of the other composites, then one
doesn't find the directional bias. This is pretty easy to digest since
there is really no preferential grain direction in those materials.

But, all that aside, they're "strong enough" when sound; the point here
is that because of the (primarily) cross-grain construction they're the
ones that do tend to fail first (as attested to by the observation that
they're the ones he can get out).

Generally the failure mechanism is one in which the dowel typically
either shrinks or at least becomes oval. The comparative effect is less
when the dowel and the surrounding hole are in the same grain direction
as the transverse movement of wood is almost all in the across-grain
mode. When the dowel is perpendicular to the grain the two sides
directly abutting end grain essentially see no wood movement.

--

So I got a 5/8" red oak dowel rod, cut some pieces, forstner-reamed 2 stile
holes out to 5/8, mounted the 2 oak dowels, cut off the other 2 and retested
the fitting of (particularly) the hinge stile and kickplate rail. Hoping it
would straighten out the "warp". It did not. The 2 oak dowels were good and tight,
too.

Near as I can tell, the dowel holes in the stile in that location were angled,
resulting in the "warp". I reamed the 2 out as carefully as possible, but it
looks like I just duplicated the angle 'cause the result is the same.

I know of no way to drill the holes in perfect alignment with the rail.
The damned thang will NOT fit on my drill press.

If you've got a remedy to this problem, I'll be listening. Please to render
it in -detail- (don't just say "drill straight!").

Thx,
P


"Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."

On Jul 20, 4:34*pm, dpb wrote:
On 7/20/2012 1:33 PM, dadiOH wrote:
...

One doesn't need a specialty epoxy, any will do when thickend with fumed
silica (Cab-o-Sil, Aero-Sil), micro balloons, wood dust or any of numerous
other things. *It bridges gaps wonderfully so why not use it?

...

I don't have any experience w/ it that way as structural is why...

--

I'm a fan of West Systems and their fillers.

http://www.westsystem.com/ss/filler-selection-guide/

If you've got a remedy to this problem,
I'll be listening. Please to render it in
-detail- (don't just say "drill straight!").

How bout get lost...You have dominated this gp for 3 weeks...You're
still a troll.

I don't care what anyone say's.....

How have you fooled all these savvy smart posters with your splash? HUH?

On 7/20/2012 5:13 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
....

I'm a fan of West Systems and their fillers.

http://www.westsystem.com/ss/filler-selection-guide/

They'd be the ones I'd consult for an application, indeed...

--

dpb wrote:
On 7/20/2012 1:04 PM, dadiOH wrote:
dpb wrote:

That they tend to come out of the rails and not the stiles is owing
to that the in the stile they're along/parallel to the grain; in
the rail it's almost entirely end grain. That is much less strong.


Excuse me? Are you saying that a dowel glued into the rail is less
strong? If so, I beg to differ.

You can differ all you want but it doesn't change the fact (nor the
orientation of the grain)


Let's look at this another way. Let's glue a couple of pieces of wood: one
across the bottom of the stile and another along the bottom og a rail. Sort
of exterrnal "dowels". Do you still say the one across the bottom of the
stile - glued to end grain - is the stronger?

OK, it isn't quite like a dowel so make it a piece in a groove in each. Now
the host wood can move on three sides...close enough IMO. Still stick to
your guns? If so, I must respectively say, "Pooh pooh" to the studies and
continue as I have for six decades.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out...
http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On 7/20/2012 6:37 PM, dadiOH wrote:
dpb wrote:
On 7/20/2012 1:04 PM, dadiOH wrote:
dpb wrote:

That they tend to come out of the rails and not the stiles is owing
to that the in the stile they're along/parallel to the grain; in
the rail it's almost entirely end grain. That is much less strong.


Excuse me? Are you saying that a dowel glued into the rail is less
strong? If so, I beg to differ.

You can differ all you want but it doesn't change the fact (nor the
orientation of the grain)
....

Dang if I don't realize I've been saying bassakwards -- rail and stile
switched in me head somehow...sorry. (I _HATE_ it when I do that! )

I looked back and puudin says most stayed in the stile and came out of
the rail; that's generally the reverse of what I discover...

What I wrote in followup is in agreement w/ your supposition; I just
automagically correlated in that direction w/o registering the opposite
I suppose. No explanation other than brain/fingers/keyboard f...

--

On Fri, 20 Jul 2012 16:22:44 -0600, (Papa Pat)
wrote:


If you've got a remedy to this problem,
I'll be listening. Please to render it in
-detail- (don't just say "drill straight!").

How bout get lost...You have dominated this gp for 3 weeks...You're
still a troll.

I don't care what anyone say's.....

How have you fooled all these savvy smart posters with your splash? HUH?

He don't use WebTV, like yourself. Take a hike!

On Jul 20, 7:03*pm, dpb wrote:
On 7/20/2012 5:13 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
...

I'm a fan of West Systems and their fillers.

http://www.westsystem.com/ss/filler-selection-guide/

They'd be the ones I'd consult for an application, indeed...

--

Lots of West Systems products used here.

2nd picture is my son winning the World Championship in Akron, Ohio

http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/q...LocalRamps.jpg
http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/q...lHeatAkron.jpg
http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/q...kronTrophy.jpg

On Fri, 20 Jul 2012 17:35:10 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Jul 20, 7:03*pm, dpb wrote:
On 7/20/2012 5:13 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
...

I'm a fan of West Systems and their fillers.

http://www.westsystem.com/ss/filler-selection-guide/

They'd be the ones I'd consult for an application, indeed...

--

Lots of West Systems products used here.

2nd picture is my son winning the World Championship in Akron, Ohio

http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/q...LocalRamps.jpg
http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/q...lHeatAkron.jpg
http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/q...kronTrophy.jpg

Outstanding. Give my warm regards to your son. Way to go!

On Jul 20, 6:13*pm, Puddin' Man wrote:
So I got a 5/8" red oak dowel rod, cut some pieces, forstner-reamed 2 stile
holes out to 5/8, mounted the 2 oak dowels, cut off the other 2 and retested
the fitting of (particularly) the hinge stile and kickplate rail. Hoping it
would straighten out the "warp". It did not. The 2 oak dowels were good and tight,
too.

Near as I can tell, the dowel holes in the stile in that location were angled,
resulting in the "warp". I reamed the 2 out as carefully as possible, but it
looks like I just duplicated the angle 'cause the result is the same.

I know of no way to drill the holes in perfect alignment with the rail.
The damned thang will NOT fit on *my drill press.

If you've got a remedy to this problem, I'll be listening. Please to render
it in -detail- (don't just say "drill straight!").

* Thx,
* P

"Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."

It would help lessen the confusion if you stopped calling it
a warp. The wood is not actually warped, is it? Or is it?
It appears from the photos that what you have is actually
wood that is straight, but the problem is when the joint is
brought together with the dowels, the pieces do not align
straight because the dowels won't allow it.

If that is the case, I'd bore out the dowel holes so that
there is enough play so that it will align straight. Then
I'd use epoxy or weatherproof glue to put it together.
The new dowels and the epoxy will hold it all together.
Assuming of course that you have gotten down to
wood that is sound and not rotten.

dpb wrote:
On 7/20/2012 6:37 PM, dadiOH wrote:
dpb wrote:
On 7/20/2012 1:04 PM, dadiOH wrote:
dpb wrote:

That they tend to come out of the rails and not the stiles is
owing to that the in the stile they're along/parallel to the
grain; in the rail it's almost entirely end grain. That is much
less strong.


Excuse me? Are you saying that a dowel glued into the rail is less
strong? If so, I beg to differ.

You can differ all you want but it doesn't change the fact (nor the
orientation of the grain)
...

Dang if I don't realize I've been saying bassakwards -- rail and stile
switched in me head somehow...sorry. (I _HATE_ it when I do
that! )
I looked back and puudin says most stayed in the stile and came out of
the rail; that's generally the reverse of what I discover...

What I wrote in followup is in agreement w/ your supposition; I just
automagically correlated in that direction w/o registering the
opposite I suppose. No explanation other than brain/fingers/keyboard f...

I love it when I'm right

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out...
http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On Fri, 20 Jul 2012 19:45:36 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

It would help lessen the confusion if you stopped calling it
a warp. The wood is not actually warped, is it? Or is it?
It appears from the photos that what you have is actually
wood that is straight, but the problem is when the joint is
brought together with the dowels, the pieces do not align
straight because the dowels won't allow it.

That appears to be substantially correct.

OK. I'll just call it the mis-alignment. :-)

If that is the case, I'd bore out the dowel holes so that
there is enough play so that it will align straight. Then
I'd use epoxy or weatherproof glue to put it together.
The new dowels and the epoxy will hold it all together.
Assuming of course that you have gotten down to
wood that is sound and not rotten.

The wood is somewhat deteriorated, not rotten.

I'd rather have the joint "tight but off a little" than
"aligned but subject to break loose".

However, I will badly need an adhesive with the 'longest possible'
setup time, because this will be a Royal Bitch of a glueup.
Is that epoxy, or is it one of the waterproof exterior glues?

Thx,
P

"Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."

Puddin' Man wrote:

However, I will badly need an adhesive with the 'longest possible'
setup time, because this will be a Royal Bitch of a glueup.

Not really...tap, tap, tap...clamp, clamp, clamp...tap, tap, tap. Just keep
it level/flat/straight as you do so.
_____________

Is that epoxy, or is it one of the waterproof exterior glues?

IMO, you want epoxy. With a thickener. I've never timed it but epoxy sets
up very slowly, I'd think you'd have a minimum of 30 minutes and even then
it doesn't set hard, just starts to get syrupy. It won't get hard for a
day; REALLY hard for several days.

It does set faster with heat and setting generates heat - more mass = more
heat - so don't put it in a narrow deep container if you want maximum time.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out...
http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On 7/20/2012 5:13 PM, Puddin' Man wrote:

So I got a 5/8" red oak dowel rod, cut some pieces, forstner-reamed 2 stile
holes out to 5/8, mounted the 2 oak dowels, cut off the other 2 and retested
the fitting of (particularly) the hinge stile and kickplate rail. Hoping it
would straighten out the "warp". It did not. The 2 oak dowels were good and tight,
too.

Red oak is _NOT_ a good choice for this purpose--it rots like crazy w/
any moisture at all. White oak would be ok, one of the nonporous
hardwoods (birch, etc.) or even pine would be far better choice.

Near as I can tell, the dowel holes in the stile in that location were angled,
resulting in the "warp". I reamed the 2 out as carefully as possible, but it
looks like I just duplicated the angle 'cause the result is the same.

I seriously doubt if the door originally was put together w/ out-of
alignment holes...if it were, then it would have been flat when new and
that's just not believable it wasn't...

I know of no way to drill the holes in perfect alignment with the rail.
The damned thang will NOT fit on my drill press.

If you've got a remedy to this problem, I'll be listening. Please to render
it in -detail- (don't just say "drill straight!").

That's _precisely_ why I kept telling you that one tool you definitely
needed was/is a doweling jig; it is not possible to drill into punky
stuff accurately freehand and damn near it even if the wood is good.
The difference in hardness between a dowel end grain trying to drill it
out will cause the bit to skate and if the dowel is gone but the wood
isn't really solid there just isn't enough resistance you can't feel it
if you're not perfectly aligned.

I'd guess your best bet now would be to glue dowels into and fill the
tight holes you have made and start again w/ a doweling jig. Again as
I've pointed out numerous times, use a smaller bit initially than the
final size to ensure you're accurately centered.

The jig will guide the bit allowing the holes to be parallel to the
faces; perpendicular to the edges.

If you do the infill, you can go back to a half for a final which the
jig you already have may be able to accomodate. If not, I posted a link
to one that does have 5/8" capability.

As another said (as well as I suggested it was likely worth the effort
to make one for the spacing as well as for the alignment ) if you
have a drill press you should be able to fabricate one from hardwood or
metal (or a combination of both) that will do the job.

Did I mention this is a job that requires patience yet?

--

"dadiOH" wrote:
Puddin' Man wrote:

However, I will badly need an adhesive with the 'longest possible'
setup time, because this will be a Royal Bitch of a glueup.

Not really...tap, tap, tap...clamp, clamp, clamp...tap, tap, tap. Just keep
it level/flat/straight as you do so.
_____________

Is that epoxy, or is it one of the waterproof exterior glues?

IMO, you want epoxy. With a thickener. I've never timed it but epoxy sets
up very slowly, I'd think you'd have a minimum of 30 minutes and even then
it doesn't set hard, just starts to get syrupy. It won't get hard for a
day; REALLY hard for several days.

It does set faster with heat and setting generates heat - more mass = more
heat - so don't put it in a narrow deep container if you want maximum time.


Or a styrofoam cup.

We used cut the bottom few inches off of plastic containers, like gallons
jugs of orange juice, etc.

Tip: spread Vaseline on any area where you don't want the epoxy to stick.
Wax paper works too.

On 7/21/2012 12:32 PM, Puddin' Man wrote:
....

However, I will badly need an adhesive with the 'longest possible'
setup time, because this will be a Royal Bitch of a glueup. Is that
epoxy, or is it one of the waterproof exterior glues?
....

Depends on which of which...

Titebond III is quoted at 10 min open time at 70F/50%RH. That ought to
be plenty of time if you've done the dry fitting and have things set up
and at hand when you start.

There are epoxies of longer and shorter open times but you'll have to be
sure you've got enough mixed for the app as likely you'll begin to push
even it if you have to stop/measure/mix another batch in the middle of
the go.

If I were worried I'd assemble one side dry and only glue the other one
in a single pass.

Again, you _MUST_ have done the dry assembly at least a couple of times
and be satisfied you have the clamps in the right spots and everything
at hand before starting and that you're satisfied of the result before
you glue one pin.

I also will generally go ahead and pre-glue the pins in the rails as
that's the most time consuming of application then you've only got the
vertical rail to deal with for the assembly.

I can't emphasize enough that you will _not_ take that apparent
misalignment out if the dowels are either loose or out of kilter w/
glue--if it doesn't go together right dry, it'll not be right in the end
so cure those problems first.

--

--

On Sat, 21 Jul 2012 13:45:04 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 7/20/2012 5:13 PM, Puddin' Man wrote:

So I got a 5/8" red oak dowel rod, cut some pieces, forstner-reamed 2 stile
holes out to 5/8, mounted the 2 oak dowels, cut off the other 2 and retested
the fitting of (particularly) the hinge stile and kickplate rail. Hoping it
would straighten out the "warp". It did not. The 2 oak dowels were good and tight,
too.

Red oak is _NOT_ a good choice for this purpose--it rots like crazy w/
any moisture at all. White oak would be ok, one of the nonporous
hardwoods (birch, etc.) or even pine would be far better choice.

It was idiot Homey Depot: all they had was oak. Normally I'd get birch.
It's about 40 mi. (round-trip) to a Rockler or similar.

Near as I can tell, the dowel holes in the stile in that location were angled,
resulting in the "warp". I reamed the 2 out as carefully as possible, but it
looks like I just duplicated the angle 'cause the result is the same.

I seriously doubt if the door originally was put together w/ out-of
alignment holes...if it were, then it would have been flat when new and
that's just not believable it wasn't...

That's what's nice about living in a free country: you are allowed to doubt
any damned thing you please.

I know of no way to drill the holes in perfect alignment with the rail.
The damned thang will NOT fit on my drill press.

If you've got a remedy to this problem, I'll be listening. Please to render
it in -detail- (don't just say "drill straight!").

That's _precisely_ why I kept telling you that one tool you definitely
needed was/is a doweling jig; it is not possible to drill into punky
stuff accurately freehand and damn near it even if the wood is good.
The difference in hardness between a dowel end grain trying to drill it
out will cause the bit to skate and if the dowel is gone but the wood
isn't really solid there just isn't enough resistance you can't feel it
if you're not perfectly aligned.

I dunno how to make a doweling jig. To po' me, a doweling jig is a
tool thatcha buy from a store. If ya have the $.

I'd guess your best bet now would be to glue dowels into and fill the
tight holes you have made and start again w/ a doweling jig.

No!

Again as
I've pointed out numerous times, use a smaller bit initially than the
final size to ensure you're accurately centered.

I did that this time, but freehand.

The jig will guide the bit allowing the holes to be parallel to the
faces; perpendicular to the edges.

If you do the infill, you can go back to a half for a final which the
jig you already have may be able to accomodate.

No!

If not, I posted a link
to one that does have 5/8" capability.

Wanna loan me the $60+?

As another said (as well as I suggested it was likely worth the effort
to make one for the spacing as well as for the alignment ) if you
have a drill press you should be able to fabricate one from hardwood or
metal (or a combination of both) that will do the job.

I gotta 13" press, but I dunno how to make more than a horse's
ass doweling jig.

Did I mention this is a job that requires patience yet?

I got a certain amount. But I'm damned if I'm married to this hideous POS.
Remember I toldya the top rail wouldn't come off the hinge stile? You said to
proceed, so I did, and positioning the 2 married pieces (30+ lbs) to do any
serious work (i.e. drilling) is ridiculously difficult. I think maybe you
forgot about that "leetle deetail"?

I need to get it as good as practical and slam it back together, run it
up the flagpole, see if anyone recognizes it's a door. :-)

Seriously, you wanna weigh in on the Q re the super-slow glue?
I'm gonna need it!

Thx,
P

"Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."

On Jul 21, 2:45*pm, dpb wrote:
On 7/20/2012 5:13 PM, Puddin' Man wrote:



So I got a 5/8" red oak dowel rod, cut some pieces, forstner-reamed 2 stile
holes out to 5/8, mounted the 2 oak dowels, cut off the other 2 and retested
the fitting of (particularly) the hinge stile and kickplate rail. Hoping it
would straighten out the "warp". It did not. The 2 oak dowels were good and tight,
too.

Red oak is _NOT_ a good choice for this purpose--it rots like crazy w/
any moisture at all. *White oak would be ok, one of the nonporous
hardwoods (birch, etc.) or even pine would be far better choice.

Near as I can tell, the dowel holes in the stile in that location were angled,
resulting in the "warp". I reamed the 2 out as carefully as possible, but it
looks like I just duplicated the angle 'cause the result is the same.

I seriously doubt if the door originally was put together w/ out-of
alignment holes...if it were, then it would have been flat when new and
that's just not believable it wasn't...

I know of no way to drill the holes in perfect alignment with the rail.
The damned thang will NOT fit on *my drill press.

If you've got a remedy to this problem, I'll be listening. Please to render
it in -detail- (don't just say "drill straight!").

That's _precisely_ why I kept telling you that one tool you definitely
needed was/is a doweling jig; it is not possible to drill into punky
stuff accurately freehand and damn near it even if the wood is good.
The difference in hardness between a dowel end grain trying to drill it
out will cause the bit to skate and if the dowel is gone but the wood
isn't really solid there just isn't enough resistance you can't feel it
if you're not perfectly aligned.

I'd guess your best bet now would be to glue dowels into and fill the
tight holes you have made and start again w/ a doweling jig. *Again as
I've pointed out numerous times, use a smaller bit initially than the
final size to ensure you're accurately centered.

The jig will guide the bit allowing the holes to be parallel to the
faces; perpendicular to the edges.

If you do the infill, you can go back to a half for a final which the
jig you already have may be able to accomodate. *If not, I posted a link
to one that does have 5/8" capability.

As another said (as well as I suggested it was likely worth the effort
to make one for the spacing as well as for the alignment ) if you
have a drill press you should be able to fabricate one from hardwood or
metal (or a combination of both) that will do the job.

Did I mention this is a job that requires patience yet? *

--

Given issues like the fact that the wood overall isn't
in the best condition, I don't see the absolute need for
the tight fit of the dowels. I agree it would certainly
be desirable.
And if it were not too difficult, I would do it. But since
he's having such a hard time, I don't see the harm in
having the dowels fit loosely so he can align it.
With epoxy in there I would think it would be strong
enough and structurally sound. I would
just epoxy it and be done.

On Sat, 21 Jul 2012 14:40:55 -0400, "dadiOH" wrote:

Is that epoxy, or is it one of the waterproof exterior glues?

IMO, you want epoxy. With a thickener. I've never timed it but epoxy sets
up very slowly, I'd think you'd have a minimum of 30 minutes and even then
it doesn't set hard, just starts to get syrupy. It won't get hard for a
day; REALLY hard for several days.

Thickener?

Current candidate:
http://www.amazon.com/System-Three-T...rds=t-88+epoxy

P

"Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."

Puddin' Man wrote:
On Sat, 21 Jul 2012 14:40:55 -0400, "dadiOH" wrote:

Is that epoxy, or is it one of the waterproof exterior glues?

IMO, you want epoxy. With a thickener. I've never timed it but epoxy sets
up very slowly, I'd think you'd have a minimum of 30 minutes and even then
it doesn't set hard, just starts to get syrupy. It won't get hard for a
day; REALLY hard for several days.

Thickener?

Current candidate:
http://www.amazon.com/System-Three-T...rds=t-88+epoxy


As you are so fond of saying:

No!

When we say "thickener" we mean a filler such as one of the West Systems
fillers shown he

http://www.westsystem.com/ss/fillers/

These powdery products are added to the 2 part epoxy mix to form a thicker,
sometimes spreadable epoxy mix. I've mixed it as thick as peanut butter
when I've needed no running or drooping.

Typically the filler and epoxy is purchased from the same manufacturer to
ensure compatibility.

If you go to a real boating supply store, they will carry West Systems or
something similar. They'll have resin, hardener and various fillers for
various applications.