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Sagging Door (was "How difficult to "build" a Door") III
For those crazy enought to try to follow the multiple threads: OP1 - Sagging Garage Door 6-17-12 OP2 - How difficult is it to "build" a door? 7-11-12 In a nutshell, I got a sheet of 1/2" MDF from HD cut to 32x80", attached some blocks for the hinges, installed the old lockset, and viola, I've built a (very crude and temp) door. The garage is at least secure. The old and offending door is on work-horses in the basement. I am evaluating the potential for rebuilding the door. Methinks it doesn't look so good: http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/...07-2012001.jpg http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/...07-2012002.jpg http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/...07-2012003.jpg Your candid opinion is solicited (dbp, are you out there?). Near as I can tell, it isn't worth re-building. Thx, P "Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule." |
Sagging Door (was "How difficult to "build" a Door") III
On 7/15/2012 3:33 PM, Puddin' Man wrote:
.... The old and offending door is on work-horses in the basement. I am evaluating the potential for rebuilding the door. Methinks it doesn't look so good: .... Your candid opinion is solicited (dbp, are you out there?). Near as I can tell, it isn't worth re-building. .... Why? Altho the images are too out of focus to really tell terribly much, it doesn't look like the lower rail is particularly in bad shape and the stile looks fine. The dowels clearly are still solid... Unless that lower rail isn't solid at all, I don't see any reason why it wouldn't clean up and go back together as good as new... Looks almost identical to the number of panels and lites to one of the garage doors here--they're both salvaged/reused from other applications around the place from when the garage was built (late '40s) so don't actually match each other... :) -- |
Sagging Door (was "How difficult to "build" a Door") III
On Jul 15, 4:58*pm, dpb wrote:
On 7/15/2012 3:33 PM, Puddin' Man wrote: ... The old and offending door is on work-horses in the basement. I am evaluating the potential for rebuilding the door. Methinks it doesn't look so good: ... Your candid opinion is solicited (dbp, are you out there?). Near as I can tell, it isn't worth re-building. ... Why? *Altho the images are too out of focus to really tell terribly much, it doesn't look like the lower rail is particularly in bad shape and the stile looks fine. *The dowels clearly are still solid... Unless that lower rail isn't solid at all, I don't see any reason why it wouldn't clean up and go back together as good as new... Ditto that. Also, to give it some added strength, he could find as thick of a metal kick plate as he can and install one on either side at the bottom. |
Sagging Door (was "How difficult to "build" a Door") III
On Sun, 15 Jul 2012 15:33:57 -0500, Puddin' Man
wrote: The old and offending door is on work-horses in the basement. I am evaluating the potential for rebuilding the door. Methinks it doesn't look so good: http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/...07-2012001.jpg http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/...07-2012002.jpg http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/...07-2012003.jpg With the door off, now post a pic of the door rough opening. Tell how wide the RO framing is. A pre-hung may just fit if the numbers add up. The glass on that door is an easy target for breakage to unlocked the door. Not something I would have. |
Sagging Door (was "How difficult to "build" a Door") III
On Sun, 15 Jul 2012 15:58:11 -0500, dpb wrote:
Why? Altho the images are too out of focus to really tell terribly much, it doesn't look like the lower rail is particularly in bad shape and the stile looks fine. The dowels clearly are still solid... Unless that lower rail isn't solid at all, I don't see any reason why it wouldn't clean up and go back together as good as new... Looks almost identical to the number of panels and lites to one of the garage doors here--they're both salvaged/reused from other applications around the place from when the garage was built (late '40s) so don't actually match each other... :) Sorry about pic quality. I do what I can. I put a caliper on the dowel: .612" which reduces to 153/250 and NOT a common dowel size. The .612 dowel rattles fairly like a pea inna pod in a 5/8" hole. The wood looks like it has suffered a lot of heat damage. I'm pretty sure that's why it failed in the first place. The dowel crumbled in my hand. If I can't even put new, tight-fitting dowels in the thing, I don't see how I can rebuild it. Eh? P P "Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule." |
Sagging Door (was "How difficult to "build" a Door") III
On 7/15/2012 5:31 PM, Puddin' Man wrote:
.... I put a caliper on the dowel: .612" which reduces to 153/250 and NOT a common dowel size. The .612 dowel rattles fairly like a pea inna pod in a 5/8" hole. The wood looks like it has suffered a lot of heat damage. I'm pretty sure that's why it failed in the first place. The dowel crumbled in my hand. If I can't even put new, tight-fitting dowels in the thing, I don't see how I can rebuild it. Eh? .... Who says the replacement dowels must be identical in dimension to the old? If you can drill a solid hole, fit a dowel to it. Also, there's nothing wrong w/ adding another couple. Is it solid? The two doors on the garage here are on a west-facing wall w/ no afternoon shade at all in W KS and they've been there for probably 60 years. If there were such a thing as just heat causing wood damage, they would have been prime candidates. Perhaps it's had some rot for some reason but heat (less than actually burning it, of course) from just sun exposure I don't think is going to be the problem. I go back to the key question--are the components still solid--will they stand up to the ice pick test? If so it's fine; if the structural condition is one of dry rot or similar and you can easily stick a pick into the wood for a significant distance then yeah, it's past working on or at least may need some new pieces-parts...I remake parts routinely but I have the shaper and other tools need to do so and it's one of those things I like doing besides...but not everybody has such facilities/inclination, granted. Let's see; were you the one in St Louis? That's too far, unfortunately or might just have a hands-on looksee...if'en you were to dispose of it, the parts would be nice to add to the collection... :) -- |
Sagging Door (was "How difficult to "build" a Door") III
Puddin' Man wrote:
For those crazy enought to try to follow the multiple threads: OP1 - Sagging Garage Door 6-17-12 OP2 - How difficult is it to "build" a door? 7-11-12 In a nutshell, I got a sheet of 1/2" MDF from HD cut to 32x80", attached some blocks for the hinges, installed the old lockset, and viola, I've built a (very crude and temp) door. The garage is at least secure. The old and offending door is on work-horses in the basement. I am evaluating the potential for rebuilding the door. Methinks it doesn't look so good: http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/...07-2012001.jpg http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/...07-2012002.jpg http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/...07-2012003.jpg Your candid opinion is solicited (dbp, are you out there?). Near as I can tell, it isn't worth re-building. I don't see why not. It looks like a pretty good door actually, even has grooves in the dowels for glue squeeze out. Get some epoxy, get some Cab-o-Sil, mix together to consistency of Vaseline, put on dowels and dowel holes, spread along the matching edges of rails and stiles, clamp together, unclamp after 24 hours and you are done. I'd still be tempted to run in some lag bolts though...easier now that you know where the dowels are (avoid them). BTW, clean up epoxy squeeze out with vinegar. Also BTW, you will need to do the other side too. Lags at least. -- dadiOH ____________________________ Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race? Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net |
Sagging Door (was "How difficult to "build" a Door") III
On Sun, 15 Jul 2012 19:35:01 -0400, "somebody" wrote:
Who says the replacement dowels must be identical in dimension to the old? Me! :-) If you can drill a solid hole, fit a dowel to it. Also, there's nothing wrong w/ adding another couple. Lost me, there. It's wood joinery: a good, tight fit is essential to structural integrity. No? Is it solid? Yes. The two doors on the garage here are on a west-facing wall w/ no afternoon shade at all in W KS and they've been there for probably 60 years. If there were such a thing as just heat causing wood damage, they would have been prime candidates. Perhaps it's had some rot for some reason but heat (less than actually burning it, of course) from just sun exposure I don't think is going to be the problem. Well, not -just- the heat. A hard rain, followed by a really hot day plays hell with the wood joints. And it's seen 56+ years of 'em. I go back to the key question--are the components still solid--will they stand up to the ice pick test? If so it's fine; if the structural condition is one of dry rot or similar and you can easily stick a pick into the wood for a significant distance then yeah, it's past working on or at least may need some new pieces-parts...I remake parts routinely but I have the shaper and other tools need to do so and it's one of those things I like doing besides...but not everybody has such facilities/inclination, granted. Understatement of the century? :-) The ice pick test is somewhat inconclusive. The pick does -not- go in easily. The wood splits in both directions (with the grain). It's flakier on the rail than on the stile. The wood in the exposed joint looks very dark and weathered. The biggest impediment for me is still the dowels. If I can't get good, tight-fitting dowels in the thing, I'm damned if I know how I can properly rebuilt it for the coming years. Bears mentioning that I tried really hard to get the thing square months ago when I was trying to reinforce it. Put shims under the sagging end (with door hung as original) and tried like hell to get it square. And it wouldn't. I dunno if I can get it square even now. -------------------------------------------- With the door off, now post a pic of the door rough opening. Tell how wide the RO framing is. Don't need a pic. It's just 2x4's, 32" between. RO? A pre-hung may just fit if the numbers add up. The glass on that door is an easy target for breakage to unlocked the door. Not something I would have. Nor I. They got my mower back around '85. I installed 1/4" plexi. -------------------------------------------- I don't see why not. It looks like a pretty good door actually, even has grooves in the dowels for glue squeeze out. Get some epoxy, get some Cab-o-Sil, mix together to consistency of Vaseline, put on dowels and dowel holes, spread along the matching edges of rails and stiles, clamp together, unclamp after 24 hours and you are done. I'd still be tempted to run in some lag bolts though...easier now that you know where the dowels are (avoid them). The stiles are 4" wide, the rails 24". I doubt lag bolts are practical. See note re squaring above. -------------------------------------------- I'll continue to cogitate, play with the thing for a couple days. Right now I don't see how I can do it. Many thanks for comments, suggestions, etc. P "Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule." |
Sagging Door (was "How difficult to "build" a Door") III
On Jul 15, 9:39*pm, Puddin' Man wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jul 2012 19:35:01 -0400, "somebody" *wrote: Who says the replacement dowels must be identical in dimension to the old? Me! :-) If you can drill a solid hole, fit a dowel to it. *Also, there's nothing wrong w/ adding another couple. Lost me, there. It's wood joinery: a good, tight fit is essential to structural integrity. No? Is it solid? Yes. The two doors on the garage here are on a west-facing wall w/ no afternoon shade at all in W KS and they've been there for probably 60 years. *If there were such a thing as just heat causing wood damage, they would have been prime candidates. Perhaps it's had some rot for some reason but heat (less than actually burning it, of course) from just sun exposure I don't think is going to be the problem. Well, not -just- the heat. A hard rain, followed by a really hot day plays hell with the wood joints. And it's seen 56+ years of 'em. I go back to the key question--are the components still solid--will they stand up to the ice pick test? *If so it's fine; if the structural condition is one of dry rot or similar and you can easily stick a pick into the wood for a significant distance then yeah, it's past working on or at least may need some new pieces-parts...I remake parts routinely but I have the shaper and other tools need to do so and it's one of those things I like doing besides...but not everybody has such facilities/inclination, granted. Understatement of the century? :-) The ice pick test is somewhat inconclusive. The pick does -not- go in *easily. The wood splits in both directions (with the grain). It's flakier on the rail than on the stile. The wood in the exposed joint looks very dark and weathered. The biggest impediment for me is still the dowels. If I can't get good, tight-fitting dowels in the thing, I'm damned if I know how I can properly rebuilt it for the coming years. Bears mentioning that I tried really hard to get the thing square months ago when I was trying to reinforce it. Put shims under the sagging end (with door hung as original) and tried like hell to get it square. And it wouldn't. I dunno if I can get it square even now. -------------------------------------------- With the door off, now post a pic of the door rough opening. *Tell how wide the RO framing is. Don't need a pic. It's just 2x4's, 32" between. RO? A pre-hung may just fit if the numbers add up. The glass on that door is an easy target for breakage to unlocked the door. *Not something I would have. Nor I. They got my mower back around '85. I installed 1/4" plexi. -------------------------------------------- I don't see why not. *It looks like a pretty good door actually, even has grooves in the dowels for glue squeeze out. Get some epoxy, get some Cab-o-Sil, mix together to consistency of Vaseline, put on dowels and dowel holes, spread along the matching edges of rails and stiles, clamp together, unclamp after 24 hours and you are done. *I'd still be tempted to run in some lag bolts though...easier now that you know where the dowels are (avoid them). The stiles are 4" wide, the rails 24". I doubt lag bolts are practical. See note re squaring above.-------------------------------------------- I'll continue to cogitate, play with the thing for a couple days. Right now I don't see how I can do it. Many thanks for comments, suggestions, etc. * P "Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule." I would buy a large container of white waterprooof glue and use it liberally to put the dowels back in place, hold the door square and let dry for at least 3 days. Are you sure the opening is truly square, it would be pretty bad if the door were square and the opening was not. |
Sagging Door (was "How difficult to "build" a Door") III
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Sagging Door (was "How difficult to "build" a Door") III
Puddin' Man wrote:
The stiles are 4" wide, the rails 24". I doubt lag bolts are practical. See note re squaring above. -------------------------------------------- Why do you think lags aren't practical Pipe clamps will pull it together. If needed, a long one across a diagonal will square it. -- dadiOH ____________________________ Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race? Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net |
Sagging Door (was "How difficult to "build" a Door") III
On Jul 15, 10:39*pm, Puddin' Man wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jul 2012 19:35:01 -0400, "somebody" *wrote: Who says the replacement dowels must be identical in dimension to the old? Me! :-) If you can drill a solid hole, fit a dowel to it. *Also, there's nothing wrong w/ adding another couple. Lost me, there. It's wood joinery: a good, tight fit is essential to structural integrity. No? What he's saying is you're not limited to only the dowel size there now. There is likely enough room that you could ream the hole out to a slightly larger size that accomodates the proper fit of a new larger diameter dowel. Or if that isn't possible, I'd consider using a piece of cloth of the right thickness. Saturate it with glue, place it over the end of the dowel and tap it all together. Also, the point about making sure the door frame is perfectly square is important. You don't want to have a square door that then won't fit because the door frame is out of square. |
Sagging Door (was "How difficult to "build" a Door") III
On 7/15/2012 9:39 PM, Puddin' Man wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jul 2012 19:35:01 -0400, "somebody" wrote: Who says the replacement dowels must be identical in dimension to the old? Me! :-) Well, then you're limiting yourself unnecessarily... If you can drill a solid hole, fit a dowel to it. Also, there's nothing wrong w/ adding another couple. Lost me, there. It's wood joinery: a good, tight fit is essential to structural integrity. No? That's what you're going to make when you match a dowel to a hole...and clean up the other surfaces of loose paint, dirt and the oxidized surface layer... Is it solid? Yes. Then that's all the confirmation needed it's doable... .... Well, not -just- the heat. A hard rain, followed by a really hot day plays hell with the wood joints. And it's seen 56+ years of 'em. Well, these two have seen nearly double that number... :) .... The ice pick test is somewhat inconclusive. The pick does -not- go in easily. The wood splits in both directions (with the grain). It's flakier on the rail than on the stile. The wood in the exposed joint looks very dark and weathered. The biggest impediment for me is still the dowels. If I can't get good, tight-fitting dowels in the thing, I'm damned if I know how I can properly rebuilt it for the coming years. Bears mentioning that I tried really hard to get the thing square months ago when I was trying to reinforce it. Put shims under the sagging end (with door hung as original) and tried like hell to get it square. And it wouldn't. I dunno if I can get it square even now. .... If the holes have become hogged out because of flexing over the years (and/or the dowels have shrunk as well) to the point the existing dowels are too small the answer is simply -- get new dowels that do fit. You may need to do a combination of sizing a dowel and reboring a hole. As another poster says, you can try some fillers, but I've had far better luck simply resizing... Get some epoxy, get some Cab-o-Sil, mix together to consistency of Vaseline, put on dowels and dowel holes, spread along the matching edges of rails and stiles, clamp together, unclamp after 24 hours and you are done. I'd still be tempted to run in some lag bolts though...easier now that you know where the dowels are (avoid them). The stiles are 4" wide, the rails 24". I doubt lag bolts are practical. See note re squaring above. -------------------------------------------- I'll continue to cogitate, play with the thing for a couple days. Right now I don't see how I can do it. .... I suggest again still against the lag bolt idea; once you go that route it's a downhill spiral on the pieces of the door and you're asking for them to hold into end grain which isn't their strong suit to start with... As for squaring it up, the other poster is correct in suggesting a long-enough pipe clamp to reach diagonally in the correct direction to pull it back into shape. You'll want to do this dry at least a couple of times before regluing to make sure you know where you're headed before the glue is there to make it a time problem. You also need to work on all the joints that are loose while you have it apart and clean up the paint and dirt, etc., that's in the cracks preventing stuff from going back together. It'll take some time and mostly patience...don't try to do it all in 15 minutes... BTW, afaik there is no "waterproof white wood glue" -- this is one application for the otherwise over-hyped "Grizzly" polyurethane glues altho my recommendation would be Titebond III. It's a waterborne glue that doesn't foam and is waterproof against occasional wetting as the application here... You _CAN_ do this... :) -- |
Sagging Door (was "How difficult to "build" a Door") III
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Sagging Door (was "How difficult to "build" a Door") III
On Mon, 16 Jul 2012 07:26:34 -0500, dpb wrote:
You _CAN_ do this... :) All good advice, The main problem will be removing old dowels that resist. I counsel patient twisting, between hammer taps. -- Vic |
Sagging Door (was "How difficult to "build" a Door") III
On Jul 16, 8:33*am, dpb wrote:
On 7/16/2012 7:21 AM, wrote: ... Also, the point about making sure the door frame is perfectly square is important. *You don't want to have a square door that then won't fit because the door frame is out of square. ... I disagree in worrying about that at this point. *Repair the door correctly, then either resquare the opening if needed or trim a little if it's just a tiny tad out. I would have looked at this issue before removing the door. If the door is out of square a bit in the same direction as the door, then I'd try to determine how much I could return the door to square and still have it likely work. As long as it's visibly not noticeable, that could save him more fitting work later on. And it could also be easier with the door repair as he's expressed doubts about whether he can get the door back to square. It would kind of suck to spend a lot of time getting the door square, only to then have more work to put it back in the opening. As for re-squaring the opening, he's hell bent on not doing anything with the existing opening, which is not a standard jamb and shim arrangement, but just 2 x 4's. The framing is completely exposed on the inside, no drywall, sheathing, etc, so I agree doing whatever to it should not be a big deal, but it is for Puddin. |
Sagging Door (was "How difficult to "build" a Door") III
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Sagging Door (was "How difficult to "build" a Door") III
On 7/16/2012 7:43 AM, Vic Smith wrote:
On Mon, 16 Jul 2012 07:26:34 -0500, wrote: You _CAN_ do this... :) All good advice, The main problem will be removing old dowels that resist. I counsel patient twisting, between hammer taps. Then drill the remnants out after they've broken off... :) BTW, the best way to do that is to get a doweling jig and use it as if were drilling new holes. Use a smaller (say 3/8") guide first an test drill to ensure have it centered before committing to the final run. -- |
Sagging Door (was "How difficult to "build" a Door") III
On 7/16/2012 7:26 AM, dpb wrote:
.... BTW, afaik there is no "waterproof white wood glue" -- Well, I guess I should modify that--I believe maybe it's Elmer's that has introduced one relatively recently seems like I now do recall seeing some ads for in Fine Woodworking or somewhere or maybe in the New Product section. I've no experience w/ it; Elmer's in general makes good products so I'll presume this one (again assuming it is it) is, too. I just know the others _very_ well...and virtually any local building supply or hardware will have Titebond III in stock. -- |
Sagging Door (was "How difficult to "build" a Door") III
On 7/16/2012 9:14 AM, dpb wrote:
.... .... If it's to try to determine how far out of square to leave it, just measure the two diagonals of the opening w/ a story stick and transfers that to the door laying on the work surface. Far simpler than trying to do something of the sort in place. .... And here's a good spot to add the other reminder to thePudd'n OP I intended--remember that when you're pulling it back to square that the best way to check is to measure the diagonals---when they're equal, it's square...(well, ok, rectangular :) ) -- |
Sagging Door (was "How difficult to "build" a Door") III
a.) The opening appears to be square. Can't tell precisely because hinges
are necessary to secure garage, but the non-hinged side -is- square, and the door -used- to fit ~ square (before sagging), so I doubt this is an issue. b.) I'll measure some more, but, if they are all ~ .612, I'll see if I can find a 5/8 (=.625)" dowel and test for fit, drilling as necessary. If that's in the ball park, I guess I'll commit suicide and endeavor to break all joints and clean 'em out, and proceed to see if I can get the damned thing square. And maybe try Habitat Restore again on the off chance they've got a serviceable 32x80x1.25" door. I'm old and in poor health. It happens every summer: something tricky breaks and I'm running around like the proverbial headless chicken for 40 days / 40 nites. Izza Super-PITA. :-( Will report back eventually. Slow work with other commitments afoot. Thanks, P On Mon, 16 Jul 2012 07:26:34 -0500, dpb wrote: On 7/15/2012 9:39 PM, Puddin' Man wrote: On Sun, 15 Jul 2012 19:35:01 -0400, "somebody" wrote: Who says the replacement dowels must be identical in dimension to the old? Me! :-) Well, then you're limiting yourself unnecessarily... If you can drill a solid hole, fit a dowel to it. Also, there's nothing wrong w/ adding another couple. Lost me, there. It's wood joinery: a good, tight fit is essential to structural integrity. No? That's what you're going to make when you match a dowel to a hole...and clean up the other surfaces of loose paint, dirt and the oxidized surface layer... Is it solid? Yes. Then that's all the confirmation needed it's doable... ... Well, not -just- the heat. A hard rain, followed by a really hot day plays hell with the wood joints. And it's seen 56+ years of 'em. Well, these two have seen nearly double that number... :) ... The ice pick test is somewhat inconclusive. The pick does -not- go in easily. The wood splits in both directions (with the grain). It's flakier on the rail than on the stile. The wood in the exposed joint looks very dark and weathered. The biggest impediment for me is still the dowels. If I can't get good, tight-fitting dowels in the thing, I'm damned if I know how I can properly rebuilt it for the coming years. Bears mentioning that I tried really hard to get the thing square months ago when I was trying to reinforce it. Put shims under the sagging end (with door hung as original) and tried like hell to get it square. And it wouldn't. I dunno if I can get it square even now. ... If the holes have become hogged out because of flexing over the years (and/or the dowels have shrunk as well) to the point the existing dowels are too small the answer is simply -- get new dowels that do fit. You may need to do a combination of sizing a dowel and reboring a hole. As another poster says, you can try some fillers, but I've had far better luck simply resizing... Get some epoxy, get some Cab-o-Sil, mix together to consistency of Vaseline, put on dowels and dowel holes, spread along the matching edges of rails and stiles, clamp together, unclamp after 24 hours and you are done. I'd still be tempted to run in some lag bolts though...easier now that you know where the dowels are (avoid them). The stiles are 4" wide, the rails 24". I doubt lag bolts are practical. See note re squaring above. -------------------------------------------- I'll continue to cogitate, play with the thing for a couple days. Right now I don't see how I can do it. ... I suggest again still against the lag bolt idea; once you go that route it's a downhill spiral on the pieces of the door and you're asking for them to hold into end grain which isn't their strong suit to start with... As for squaring it up, the other poster is correct in suggesting a long-enough pipe clamp to reach diagonally in the correct direction to pull it back into shape. You'll want to do this dry at least a couple of times before regluing to make sure you know where you're headed before the glue is there to make it a time problem. You also need to work on all the joints that are loose while you have it apart and clean up the paint and dirt, etc., that's in the cracks preventing stuff from going back together. It'll take some time and mostly patience...don't try to do it all in 15 minutes... BTW, afaik there is no "waterproof white wood glue" -- this is one application for the otherwise over-hyped "Grizzly" polyurethane glues altho my recommendation would be Titebond III. It's a waterborne glue that doesn't foam and is waterproof against occasional wetting as the application here... You _CAN_ do this... :) "Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule." |
Sagging Door (was "How difficult to "build" a Door") III
On Jul 16, 1:33*pm, Puddin' Man wrote:
a.) The opening appears to be square. Can't tell precisely because hinges * * are necessary to secure garage, but the non-hinged side -is- square, * * and the door -used- to fit ~ square (before sagging), so I doubt this * * is an issue. b.) I'll measure some more, but, if they are all ~ .612, I'll see if I can * * find a 5/8 (=.625)" dowel and test for fit, drilling as necessary. If * * that's in the ball park, I guess I'll commit suicide and endeavor to * * break all joints and clean 'em out, and proceed to see if I can get * * the damned thing square. And maybe try Habitat Restore again on the off chance they've got a serviceable 32x80x1.25" door. I'm old and in poor health. It happens every summer: something tricky breaks and I'm running around like the proverbial headless chicken for 40 days / 40 nites. Izza Super-PITA. :-( Will report back eventually. Slow work with other commitments afoot. * Thanks, * P On Mon, 16 Jul 2012 07:26:34 -0500, dpb wrote: On 7/15/2012 9:39 PM, Puddin' Man wrote: On Sun, 15 Jul 2012 19:35:01 -0400, "somebody" *wrote: Who says the replacement dowels must be identical in dimension to the old? Me! :-) Well, then you're limiting yourself unnecessarily... If you can drill a solid hole, fit a dowel to it. *Also, there's nothing wrong w/ adding another couple. Lost me, there. It's wood joinery: a good, tight fit is essential to structural integrity. No? That's what you're going to make when you match a dowel to a hole...and clean up the other surfaces of loose paint, dirt and the oxidized surface layer... Is it solid? Yes. Then that's all the confirmation needed it's doable... ... Well, not -just- the heat. A hard rain, followed by a really hot day plays hell with the wood joints. And it's seen 56+ years of 'em. Well, these two have seen nearly double that number... :) ... The ice pick test is somewhat inconclusive. The pick does -not- go in *easily. The wood splits in both directions (with the grain). It's flakier on the rail than on the stile. The wood in the exposed joint looks very dark and weathered. The biggest impediment for me is still the dowels. If I can't get good, tight-fitting dowels in the thing, I'm damned if I know how I can properly rebuilt it for the coming years. Bears mentioning that I tried really hard to get the thing square months ago when I was trying to reinforce it. Put shims under the sagging end (with door hung as original) and tried like hell to get it square. And it wouldn't. I dunno if I can get it square even now. ... If the holes have become hogged out because of flexing over the years (and/or the dowels have shrunk as well) to the point the existing dowels are too small the answer is simply -- get new dowels that do fit. *You may need to do a combination of sizing a dowel and reboring a hole. As another poster says, you can try some fillers, but I've had far better luck simply resizing... Get some epoxy, get some Cab-o-Sil, mix together to consistency of Vaseline, put on dowels and dowel holes, spread along the matching edges of rails and stiles, clamp together, unclamp after 24 hours and you are done. *I'd still be tempted to run in some lag bolts though...easier now that you know where the dowels are (avoid them). The stiles are 4" wide, the rails 24". I doubt lag bolts are practical.. See note re squaring above. -------------------------------------------- I'll continue to cogitate, play with the thing for a couple days. Right now I don't see how I can do it. ... I suggest again still against the lag bolt idea; once you go that route it's a downhill spiral on the pieces of the door and you're asking for them to hold into end grain which isn't their strong suit to start with.... As for squaring it up, the other poster is correct in suggesting a long-enough pipe clamp to reach diagonally in the correct direction to pull it back into shape. *You'll want to do this dry at least a couple of times before regluing to make sure you know where you're headed before the glue is there to make it a time problem. *You also need to work on all the joints that are loose while you have it apart and clean up the paint and dirt, etc., that's in the cracks preventing stuff from going back together. It'll take some time and mostly patience...don't try to do it all in 15 minutes... BTW, afaik there is no "waterproof white wood glue" -- this is one application for the otherwise over-hyped "Grizzly" polyurethane glues altho my recommendation would be Titebond III. *It's a waterborne glue that doesn't foam and is waterproof against occasional wetting as the application here... You _CAN_ do this... :) "Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - You mention the thickness again, that shouldn't matter as long as you get the hinges mounted so the door fits tightly in the opening. Even 2 inches thick would work if you offset the hinges properly. |
Sagging Door (was "How difficult to "build" a Door") III
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Sagging Door (was "How difficult to "build" a Door") III
On Sun, 15 Jul 2012 15:33:57 -0500, Puddin' Man
wrote: For those crazy enought to try to follow the multiple threads: OP1 - Sagging Garage Door 6-17-12 OP2 - How difficult is it to "build" a door? 7-11-12 In a nutshell, I got a sheet of 1/2" MDF from HD cut to 32x80", attached some blocks for the hinges, installed the old lockset, and viola, I've built a (very crude and temp) door. The garage is at least secure. The old and offending door is on work-horses in the basement. I am evaluating the potential for rebuilding the door. Methinks it doesn't look so good: http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/...07-2012001.jpg http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/...07-2012002.jpg http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/...07-2012003.jpg Your candid opinion is solicited (dbp, are you out there?). Near as I can tell, it isn't worth re-building. Thx, P "Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule." No reason with a bit of work the door can't be revived for another 10 or more years, from what I could see. |
Sagging Door (was "How difficult to "build" a Door") III
On Jul 16, 3:08*pm, dpb wrote:
On 7/16/2012 1:53 PM, hr(bob) wrote: ... You mention the thickness again, that shouldn't matter as long as you get the hinges mounted so the door fits tightly in the opening. *Even 2 inches thick would work if you offset the hinges properly. He'll need a deep-enough casing to be able to, though...or the back holes of the hinges will be in air or so close to edge they'll be likely to split out. *Other than that, though, if there is the width, it'll work, correct. -- Doh! Here we go again with the thicker door that Puddin insists isn't possible. He says the opening is just 32" wide framed 2 x 4's, no door jamb. So, I think we all agree that there isn't any apparent reason a thicker door would not work.... Might have to remove a little material from the edges, but given that they are available new and not that expensive, don't see a reason why it can't be an option. |
Sagging Door (was "How difficult to "build" a Door") III
On Jul 16, 2:33*pm, Puddin' Man wrote:
a.) The opening appears to be square. You can't tell square by appearances. You might be able to tell un- square if an opening is seriously out of square, but if it's close, you can't see it by eye. Can't tell precisely because hinges * * are necessary to secure garage, but the non-hinged side -is- square, Do you know what square means? To state that the non-hinged side is square makes no sense. A single side can not be square. A side can only be square in relation to the top or bottom. Perhaps you mean that the non-hinged side is plumb? Stolen without permission from http://www.renovation-headquarters.c...vel-square.htm ***** Plumb: Plumb is defined as true to a vertical plane. Level: Level is defined as true to a horizontal plane. Squa Square is when a plumbed object intersects with a level object they create a 90 degree angle. ***** You could say that the non-hinged side is square in relation to the top (or bottom) but you can't simply say that the non-hinged side is square. The hinges should in no way prevent you from determining if the opening is square. Measure the 2 diagonals, top corner to opposite bottom corner. If those 2 measurements are equal, the opening is square. * * and the door -used- to fit ~ square (before sagging), so I doubt this * * is an issue. Even if the door fit, it does not mean that the opening is square. If the door was altered to fit an un-square opening, it would fit, but it woudn't be square. That's why so many people have said that you might be unpleasantly surprised if you spend time squaring the door in your workshop only to find that the opening is not square. You either have to square the opening if the door ends up square, or you need to unsquare the door if you can't fix the opening. The shape of the 2 objects must be the same. .. |
Sagging Door (was "How difficult to "build" a Door") III
Notes on testing sagging door for square, etc.
I have 2 pony clamps on plumbers pipe to try to pull the thing into square. I mount the long pony on the diagonal of the door (top left to bottom right) and tighten. The window pane in the low left quadrant starts cracking. There's a sizable gap on the left side between stile and the third rail. I put the shorter Pony across the middle and tighten. The window pane in the low left quadrant starts cracking *again*. Neither operation put the door in square. I put a rule across the bottom left rail and stile. They are not level: the stile tapers off on the left edge. So I clamp a couple hardwood boards across the bottom left rail and stile. And it still drops off a little. After the door started sagging and scraping on the cement floor, it's sure the paint came off the bottom at spots, allowing the stile and maybe rail to "wick up" rainwater periodically, resulting in the kind of wood damage I'm seeing. I'm running out of ideas. But I'm still listening. P "Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule." |
Sagging Door (was "How difficult to "build" a Door") III
On Jul 16, 7:19*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Jul 16, 2:33*pm, Puddin' Man wrote: a.) The opening appears to be square. You can't tell square by appearances. You might be able to tell un- square if an opening is seriously out of square, but if it's close, you can't see it by eye. * * *Can't tell precisely because hinges * * are necessary to secure garage, but the non-hinged side -is- square, Do you know what square means? To state that the non-hinged side is square makes no sense. A single side can not be square. A side can only be square in relation to the top or bottom. I would think he means that the non-hinged side is square relative to both the top and bottom. Perhaps you mean that the non-hinged side is plumb? Stolen without permission fromhttp://www.renovation-headquarters.com/plumb-level-square.htm ***** Plumb: Plumb is defined as true to a vertical plane. Level: Level is defined as true to a horizontal plane. Squa Square is when a plumbed object intersects with a level object they create a 90 degree angle. ***** You could say that the non-hinged side is square in relation to the top (or bottom) but you can't simply say that the non-hinged side is square. I would take what he said to mean that the non-hinge side is square as you describe above. The hinges should in no way prevent you from determining if the opening is square. Now that part I don't get either. I don't see why the door and hinges being there would prevent one from using a square. Measure the 2 diagonals, top corner to opposite bottom corner. If those 2 measurements are equal, the opening is square. * * and the door -used- to fit ~ square (before sagging), so I doubt this * * is an issue. Even if the door fit, it does not mean that the opening is square. If the door was altered to fit an un-square opening, it would fit, but it woudn't be square. That's why so many people have said that you might be unpleasantly surprised if you spend time squaring the door in your workshop only to find that the opening is not square. You either have to square the opening if the door ends up square, or you need to unsquare the door if you can't fix the opening. The shape of the 2 objects must be the same. Ditto that. |
Sagging Door (was "How difficult to "build" a Door") III
|
Sagging Door (was "How difficult to "build" a Door") III
On Jul 16, 7:43*pm, dpb wrote:
On 7/16/2012 4:38 PM, wrote: ... ... He says the opening is just 32" wide framed 2 x 4's, no door jamb.... Hmmm...I missed that thread I guess... *:) What does it close against if there is no jamb???? -- It looks like there are stops nailed to RO on the exterior. http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/...06-2012002.jpg |
Sagging Door (was "How difficult to "build" a Door") III
On Mon, 16 Jul 2012 16:19:54 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote: On Jul 16, 2:33*pm, Puddin' Man wrote: a.) The opening appears to be square. You can't tell square by appearances. You might be able to tell un- square if an opening is seriously out of square, but if it's close, you can't see it by eye. This thread will go past the next election; local or otherwise. You can't plumb or square a 6' RO with a 4" level. Cannot even plumb an 8' RO with a 6' level. Ya gotta know the tricks. Can't tell precisely because hinges * * are necessary to secure garage, but the non-hinged side -is- square, Do you know what square means? Sure he does, by appearance. Looks good from my house. To state that the non-hinged side is square makes no sense. A single side can not be square. A side can only be square in relation to the top or bottom. Oops! Perhaps you mean that the non-hinged side is plumb? Stolen without permission from http://www.renovation-headquarters.c...vel-square.htm ***** Plumb: Plumb is defined as true to a vertical plane. In my universe. Level: Level is defined as true to a horizontal plane. See my universe. Squa Square is when a plumbed object intersects with a level object they create a 90 degree angle. See wut I mean. ***** You could say that the non-hinged side is square in relation to the top (or bottom) but you can't simply say that the non-hinged side is square. Nope - check it twice. The hinges should in no way prevent you from determining if the opening is square. Measure the 2 diagonals, top corner to opposite bottom corner. If those 2 measurements are equal, the opening is square. Don't read the tape upside down. * * and the door -used- to fit ~ square (before sagging), so I doubt this * * is an issue. Even if the door fit, it does not mean that the opening is square. If the door was altered to fit an un-square opening, it would fit, but it woudn't be square. A winner folks. That's why so many people have said that you might be unpleasantly surprised if you spend time squaring the door in your workshop only to find that the opening is not square. Did we yet suggest a pre-hung? You either have to square the opening if the door ends up square, or you need to unsquare the door if you can't fix the opening. The shape of the 2 objects must be the same. In my neighborhood it does. |
Sagging Door (was "How difficult to "build" a Door") III
On Mon, 16 Jul 2012 18:43:59 -0500, dpb wrote:
On 7/16/2012 4:38 PM, wrote: ... ... He says the opening is just 32" wide framed 2 x 4's, no door jamb.... Hmmm...I missed that thread I guess... :) What does it close against if there is no jamb???? Are not residential doors (fire exit) 36"? My garage doors into and out are. |
Sagging Door (was "How difficult to "build" a Door") III
On Mon, 16 Jul 2012 16:19:54 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote: On Jul 16, 2:33Â*pm, Puddin' Man wrote: a.) The opening appears to be square. You can't tell square by appearances. You might be able to tell un- square if an opening is seriously out of square, but if it's close, you can't see it by eye. Can't tell precisely because hinges Â* Â* are necessary to secure garage, but the non-hinged side -is- square, Do you know what square means? To state that the non-hinged side is square makes no sense. A single side can not be square. A side can only be square in relation to the top or bottom. Perhaps you mean that the non-hinged side is plumb? Stolen without permission from http://www.renovation-headquarters.c...vel-square.htm ***** Plumb: Plumb is defined as true to a vertical plane. Level: Level is defined as true to a horizontal plane. Squa Square is when a plumbed object intersects with a level object they create a 90 degree angle. ***** You could say that the non-hinged side is square in relation to the top (or bottom) but you can't simply say that the non-hinged side is square. The hinges should in no way prevent you from determining if the opening is square. Measure the 2 diagonals, top corner to opposite bottom corner. If those 2 measurements are equal, the opening is square. Or just grab an old framing square and hold it into each top corner. "close enough for government work" Â* Â* and the door -used- to fit ~ square (before sagging), so I doubt this Â* Â* is an issue. Even if the door fit, it does not mean that the opening is square. If the door was altered to fit an un-square opening, it would fit, but it woudn't be square. That's why so many people have said that you might be unpleasantly surprised if you spend time squaring the door in your workshop only to find that the opening is not square. You either have to square the opening if the door ends up square, or you need to unsquare the door if you can't fix the opening. The shape of the 2 objects must be the same. . |
Sagging Door (was "How difficult to "build" a Door") III
On Jul 16, 8:23*pm, wrote:
On Mon, 16 Jul 2012 16:19:54 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03 wrote: On Jul 16, 2:33*pm, Puddin' Man wrote: a.) The opening appears to be square. You can't tell square by appearances. You might be able to tell un- square if an opening is seriously out of square, but if it's close, you can't see it by eye. * * *Can't tell precisely because hinges * * are necessary to secure garage, but the non-hinged side -is- square, Do you know what square means? To state that the non-hinged side is square makes no sense. A single side can not be square. A side can only be square in relation to the top or bottom. Perhaps you mean that the non-hinged side is plumb? Stolen without permission fromhttp://www.renovation-headquarters.com/plumb-level-square.htm ***** Plumb: Plumb is defined as true to a vertical plane. Level: Level is defined as true to a horizontal plane. Squa Square is when a plumbed object intersects with a level object they create a 90 degree angle. ***** You could say that the non-hinged side is square in relation to the top (or bottom) but you can't simply say that the non-hinged side is square. The hinges should in no way prevent you from determining if the opening is square. Measure the 2 diagonals, top corner to opposite bottom corner. If those 2 measurements are equal, the opening is square. *Or just grab an old framing square and hold it into each top corner. "close enough for government work" * * and the door -used- to fit ~ square (before sagging), so I doubt this * * is an issue. Even if the door fit, it does not mean that the opening is square. If the door was altered to fit an un-square opening, it would fit, but it woudn't be square. That's why so many people have said that you might be unpleasantly surprised if you spend time squaring the door in your workshop only to find that the opening is not square. You either have to square the opening if the door ends up square, or you need to unsquare the door if you can't fix the opening. The shape of the 2 objects must be the same. . I was giving him the benefit of the doubt by assuming that the hinges might in some way impact his use of a square within the RO. I figured there is no way the hinges could impact his ability to measure from corner to corner. |
Sagging Door (was "How difficult to "build" a Door") III
On Jul 16, 7:32*pm, "
wrote: On Jul 16, 7:19*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote: On Jul 16, 2:33*pm, Puddin' Man wrote: a.) The opening appears to be square. You can't tell square by appearances. You might be able to tell un- square if an opening is seriously out of square, but if it's close, you can't see it by eye. * * *Can't tell precisely because hinges * * are necessary to secure garage, but the non-hinged side -is- square, Do you know what square means? To state that the non-hinged side is square makes no sense. A single side can not be square. A side can only be square in relation to the top or bottom. I would think he means that the non-hinged side is square relative to both the top and bottom. Perhaps you mean that the non-hinged side is plumb? Stolen without permission fromhttp://www.renovation-headquarters.com/plumb-level-square.htm ***** Plumb: Plumb is defined as true to a vertical plane. Level: Level is defined as true to a horizontal plane. Squa Square is when a plumbed object intersects with a level object they create a 90 degree angle. ***** You could say that the non-hinged side is square in relation to the top (or bottom) but you can't simply say that the non-hinged side is square. I would take what he said to mean that the non-hinge side is square as you describe above. "Can't tell precisely because hinges are necessary to secure garage, but the non-hinged side -is- square" In this situation, I do not feel confident that we can separate the 2 parts of that statement and have them each stand on their own merit. Since the OP feels that he can not check to see if the RO is square because of the hinges, I don't have any confidence that he knows what square means, therefore I am not willing to assume that he means "the non-hinged side -is- square with the top and/or bottom." If he comes back and rephrases that in a manner that convinces me that that is indeed what he meant *and* explains why the hinges are preventing him from determining the overall squareness of the RO, I'll certainly concede the issue. Until then, I'll think he meant "plumb" even though I don't think that he knows that that is what he meant. Know what I mean? ;-) |
Sagging Door (was "How difficult to "build" a Door") III
On Jul 16, 8:20*pm, Oren wrote:
On Mon, 16 Jul 2012 18:43:59 -0500, dpb wrote: On 7/16/2012 4:38 PM, wrote: ... ... He says the opening is just 32" wide framed 2 x 4's, no door jamb.... Hmmm...I missed that thread I guess... *:) What does it close against if there is no jamb???? Are not residential doors (fire exit) 36"? My garage doors into and out are. Please *please* do not bring code into this discussion. I can't imagine how bizarre it will get if we take it in that direction! |
Sagging Door (was "How difficult to "build" a Door") III
On Mon, 16 Jul 2012 17:55:45 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote: On Jul 16, 8:20*pm, Oren wrote: On Mon, 16 Jul 2012 18:43:59 -0500, dpb wrote: On 7/16/2012 4:38 PM, wrote: ... ... He says the opening is just 32" wide framed 2 x 4's, no door jamb.... Hmmm...I missed that thread I guess... *:) What does it close against if there is no jamb???? Are not residential doors (fire exit) 36"? My garage doors into and out are. Please *please* do not bring code into this discussion. I can't imagine how bizarre it will get if we take it in that direction! I sincerely apologize. Pre-hung doors are out of the question. |
Sagging Door (was "How difficult to "build" a Door") III
Puddin' Man wrote:
Notes on testing sagging door for square, etc. I have 2 pony clamps on plumbers pipe to try to pull the thing into square. I mount the long pony on the diagonal of the door (top left to bottom right) and tighten. The window pane in the low left quadrant starts cracking. There's a sizable gap on the left side between stile and the third rail. I put the shorter Pony across the middle and tighten. The window pane in the low left quadrant starts cracking *again*. Neither operation put the door in square. I put a rule across the bottom left rail and stile. They are not level: the stile tapers off on the left edge. So I clamp a couple hardwood boards across the bottom left rail and stile. And it still drops off a little. After the door started sagging and scraping on the cement floor, it's sure the paint came off the bottom at spots, allowing the stile and maybe rail to "wick up" rainwater periodically, resulting in the kind of wood damage I'm seeing. I'm running out of ideas. But I'm still listening. 1. Take out the glass 2. From your most recent photos, the lock stile seems to be pretty chock-o-block to the rails; the hinge stile does not...it is far from the rails at the bottom, close at the top. You need to get it evened up if you plan to reuse the dowels. Do that by tapping in the bottom a bit, prying out the top. A little at a time in both cases. 3. Once you have the hinge stile more or less parallel to the rest of the door, clean up the dowels, dowel holes and coped edges a bit. 4. Slather the dowels, dowel holes and coped edges with thickened epoxy. If the dowels are loose in the holes it doesn't matter as the epoxy will fill very well. 5. Use a rubber mallet and start tapping the stile in a little at a time; try to keep it as parallel as possible to the rest of the door; you do that by tapping at one end, then a little farter along, then a little farther along, etc. Once it is in (or before if tapping with a mallet doesn't move it) put your pipe clamps across the width and tighten...again, gradually...first one clamp, then another. Your goal is to move the stile to the rails keeping it as parallel as possible to the rest of the door. Ideally, use at least four clamps...one each at 2-3" from the top & bottom, the other two to divide up the remaining length of the stile evenly. If all you have is two and you have to use them to move the stile, you can tighten, reposition, tighten, etc. Once the stile is against the rails they do NOT need to be cinched down very hard, just enough to keep things tight. As you are tapping, clamping, keep checking the door for square...if you have cleaned out loose crud from the coped edges, it should go together pretty square but if need be, tighten/loosen clamps or pry as necessary. If a disaster occurs and it winds up unsguare, you can always trim and/or add wood to make it so. As already mentioned a couple of times, vinegar cleans off epoxy squeeze out. 6. Reglaze. I still think some lags are a good idea. I'd be pretty much willing to bet that the naysayers who say they won't hold in end grain have never used them in that manner. I would *definitely* be willing to bet that they will hold perfectly if you followed my original suggestion of firming up the holes with super glue; ditto with epoxy. I like the super glue because I don't have to leave stuff clamped up for 24 hours while epoxy sets but - other than that - it is just as good. Better if the wood is damaged. The water damage to the wood didn't come from paint rubbing off the bottom and water wicking up. It came because the rails had separated form the stiles and rain water was running down into the resultant "V". How can glass "start to crack"? It either cracks or it doesn't. -- dadiOH ____________________________ Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race? Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net |
Sagging Door (was "How difficult to "build" a Door") III
On Jul 17, 12:57*pm, "dadiOH" wrote:
Puddin' Man wrote: Notes on testing sagging door for square, etc. I have 2 pony clamps on plumbers pipe to try to pull the thing into square. I mount the long pony on the diagonal of the door (top left to bottom right) and tighten. The window pane in the low left quadrant starts cracking. There's a sizable gap on the left side between stile and the third rail. I put the shorter Pony across the middle and tighten. The window pane in the low left quadrant starts cracking *again*. Neither operation put the door in square. I put a rule across the bottom left rail and stile. They are not level: the stile tapers off on the left edge. So I clamp a couple hardwood boards across the bottom left rail and stile. And it still drops off a little. After the door started sagging and scraping on the cement floor, it's sure the paint came off the bottom at spots, allowing the stile and maybe rail to "wick up" rainwater periodically, resulting in the kind of wood damage I'm seeing. I'm running out of ideas. But I'm still listening. 1. Take out the glass 2. From your most recent photos, the lock stile seems to be pretty chock-o-block to the rails; the hinge stile does not...it is far from the rails at the bottom, close at the top. *You need to get it evened up if you plan to reuse the dowels. *Do that by tapping in the bottom a bit, prying out the top. *A little at a time in both cases. 3. Once you have the hinge stile more or less parallel to the rest of the door, clean up the dowels, dowel holes and coped edges a bit. 4. Slather the dowels, dowel holes and coped edges with thickened epoxy. *If the dowels are loose in the holes it doesn't matter as the epoxy will fill very well. 5. Use a rubber mallet and start tapping the stile in a little at a time; try to keep it as parallel as possible to the rest of the door; you do that by tapping at one end, then a little farter along, then a little farther along, etc. *Once it is in (or before if tapping with a mallet doesn't move it) put your pipe clamps across the width and tighten...again, gradually...first one clamp, then another. *Your goal is to move the stile to the rails keeping it as parallel as possible to the rest of the door. Ideally, use at least four clamps...one each at 2-3" from the top & bottom, the other two to divide up the remaining length of the stile evenly. *If all you have is two and you have to use them to move the stile, you can tighten, reposition, tighten, etc. *Once the stile is against the rails they do NOT need to be cinched down very hard, just enough to keep things tight. As you are tapping, clamping, keep checking the door for square...if you have cleaned out loose crud from the coped edges, it should go together pretty square but if need be, tighten/loosen clamps or pry as necessary. *If a disaster occurs and it winds up unsguare, you can always trim and/or add wood to make it so. *As already mentioned a couple of times, vinegar cleans off epoxy squeeze out. 6. Reglaze. I still think some lags are a good idea. *I'd be pretty much willing to bet that the naysayers who say they won't hold in end grain have never used them in that manner. *I would *definitely* be willing to bet that they will hold perfectly if you followed my original suggestion of firming up the holes with super glue; ditto with epoxy. *I like the super glue because I don't have to leave stuff clamped up for 24 hours while epoxy sets but - other than that - it is just as good. *Better if the wood is damaged. The water damage to the wood didn't come from paint rubbing off the bottom and water wicking up. *It came because the rails had separated form the stiles and rain water was running down into the resultant "V". How can glass "start to crack"? *It either cracks or it doesn't. -- dadiOH ____________________________ Winters getting colder? *Tired of the rat race? Maybe just ready for a change? *Check it out...http://www.floridaloghouse.net- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - or... Install a pre-hung door. |
Sagging Door (was "How difficult to "build" a Door") III
On 7/16/2012 6:27 PM, Puddin' Man wrote:
Notes on testing sagging door for square, etc. .... I'm running out of ideas. But I'm still listening. .... Well, you're far better off w/o the glass in place while you're messing around. My first question is have you really cleaned up the joint areas and so on to give it room to move back up tightly against the original coped edges? Until that is done and done thoroughly, all else is futile--two objects can't occupy the same space at the same time. If there's paint and/or dirt where the stile is suppose to end up being, needless to say it ain't a gonna' go there. I get a feeling of lack of patience here---it's meticulous, detail work, not something that can be just "slam-bam, thank you..." and done. If you don't have the patience to truly do the detail work you may as well just toss the door in the alley and go on. I _still_ disagree that you want lag bolts--yeah, they'll sorta hold for a while but old wood that is somewhat deteriorated will mostly just fail first and the dowels and glue will last much longer once they're fit properly. If you think you need more, I'd add another dowel or two instead. And, again, on the order of things...absolutely do _NOT_ add epoxy and/or glue until you have _successfully_ brought the door into the final desired position at least once (and preferably more than once) w/ a "dry fit". Once you've got the glue in there (and even worse w/ an epoxy and it doesn't quite go, then again you may as well plan on tossing it in the scrap heap. Again, to reiterate--'patience, patience, patience.... I've said all I can; I'm not monitoring this thread any longer as it's beginning to "make my eyes bleed" as a particular entertainer is wont to exclaim when news upsets him...frustration does the same thing. :) -- |
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