For those crazy enought to try to follow the multiple threads:

OP1 - Sagging Garage Door 6-17-12
OP2 - How difficult is it to "build" a door? 7-11-12

In a nutshell, I got a sheet of 1/2" MDF from HD cut to 32x80", attached
some blocks for the hinges, installed the old lockset, and viola, I've
built a (very crude and temp) door. The garage is at least secure.

The old and offending door is on work-horses in the basement. I am
evaluating the potential for rebuilding the door. Methinks it
doesn't look so good:

http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/...07-2012001.jpg
http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/...07-2012002.jpg
http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/...07-2012003.jpg

Your candid opinion is solicited (dbp, are you out there?). Near as I can tell, it
isn't worth re-building.

Thx,
P

"Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."

On 7/15/2012 3:33 PM, Puddin' Man wrote:
....

The old and offending door is on work-horses in the basement. I am
evaluating the potential for rebuilding the door. Methinks it
doesn't look so good:
....

Your candid opinion is solicited (dbp, are you out there?). Near as I can tell, it
isn't worth re-building.
....

Why? Altho the images are too out of focus to really tell terribly
much, it doesn't look like the lower rail is particularly in bad shape
and the stile looks fine. The dowels clearly are still solid...

Unless that lower rail isn't solid at all, I don't see any reason why it
wouldn't clean up and go back together as good as new...

Looks almost identical to the number of panels and lites to one of the
garage doors here--they're both salvaged/reused from other applications
around the place from when the garage was built (late '40s) so don't
actually match each other...

--

On Jul 15, 4:58*pm, dpb wrote:
On 7/15/2012 3:33 PM, Puddin' Man wrote:
...

The old and offending door is on work-horses in the basement. I am
evaluating the potential for rebuilding the door. Methinks it
doesn't look so good:

...

Your candid opinion is solicited (dbp, are you out there?). Near as I can tell, it
isn't worth re-building.

...

Why? *Altho the images are too out of focus to really tell terribly
much, it doesn't look like the lower rail is particularly in bad shape
and the stile looks fine. *The dowels clearly are still solid...

Unless that lower rail isn't solid at all, I don't see any reason why it
wouldn't clean up and go back together as good as new...


Ditto that. Also, to give it some added strength, he could
find as thick of a metal kick plate as he can and install one on
either side at the bottom.

On Sun, 15 Jul 2012 15:58:11 -0500, dpb wrote:

Why? Altho the images are too out of focus to really tell terribly
much, it doesn't look like the lower rail is particularly in bad shape
and the stile looks fine. The dowels clearly are still solid...

Unless that lower rail isn't solid at all, I don't see any reason why it
wouldn't clean up and go back together as good as new...

Looks almost identical to the number of panels and lites to one of the
garage doors here--they're both salvaged/reused from other applications
around the place from when the garage was built (late '40s) so don't
actually match each other...

Sorry about pic quality. I do what I can.

I put a caliper on the dowel: .612" which reduces to 153/250 and NOT
a common dowel size. The .612 dowel rattles fairly like a pea inna
pod in a 5/8" hole.

The wood looks like it has suffered a lot of heat damage. I'm pretty
sure that's why it failed in the first place. The dowel crumbled in
my hand.

If I can't even put new, tight-fitting dowels in the thing, I don't
see how I can rebuild it. Eh?

P

P

"Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."

On 7/15/2012 5:31 PM, Puddin' Man wrote:
....

I put a caliper on the dowel: .612" which reduces to 153/250 and NOT
a common dowel size. The .612 dowel rattles fairly like a pea inna
pod in a 5/8" hole.

The wood looks like it has suffered a lot of heat damage. I'm pretty
sure that's why it failed in the first place. The dowel crumbled in
my hand.

If I can't even put new, tight-fitting dowels in the thing, I don't
see how I can rebuild it. Eh?
....

Who says the replacement dowels must be identical in dimension to the
old? If you can drill a solid hole, fit a dowel to it. Also, there's
nothing wrong w/ adding another couple.

Is it solid? The two doors on the garage here are on a west-facing wall
w/ no afternoon shade at all in W KS and they've been there for probably
60 years. If there were such a thing as just heat causing wood damage,
they would have been prime candidates.

Perhaps it's had some rot for some reason but heat (less than actually
burning it, of course) from just sun exposure I don't think is going to
be the problem.

I go back to the key question--are the components still solid--will they
stand up to the ice pick test? If so it's fine; if the structural
condition is one of dry rot or similar and you can easily stick a pick
into the wood for a significant distance then yeah, it's past working on
or at least may need some new pieces-parts...I remake parts routinely
but I have the shaper and other tools need to do so and it's one of
those things I like doing besides...but not everybody has such
facilities/inclination, granted.

Let's see; were you the one in St Louis? That's too far, unfortunately
or might just have a hands-on looksee...if'en you were to dispose of it,
the parts would be nice to add to the collection...

--

On Sun, 15 Jul 2012 15:33:57 -0500, Puddin' Man
wrote:

The old and offending door is on work-horses in the basement. I am
evaluating the potential for rebuilding the door. Methinks it
doesn't look so good:

http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/...07-2012001.jpg
http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/...07-2012002.jpg
http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/...07-2012003.jpg

With the door off, now post a pic of the door rough opening. Tell how
wide the RO framing is.

A pre-hung may just fit if the numbers add up.

The glass on that door is an easy target for breakage to unlocked the
door. Not something I would have.

Puddin' Man wrote:
For those crazy enought to try to follow the multiple threads:

OP1 - Sagging Garage Door 6-17-12
OP2 - How difficult is it to "build" a door? 7-11-12

In a nutshell, I got a sheet of 1/2" MDF from HD cut to 32x80",
attached
some blocks for the hinges, installed the old lockset, and viola, I've
built a (very crude and temp) door. The garage is at least secure.

The old and offending door is on work-horses in the basement. I am
evaluating the potential for rebuilding the door. Methinks it
doesn't look so good:

http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/...07-2012001.jpg
http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/...07-2012002.jpg
http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/...07-2012003.jpg

Your candid opinion is solicited (dbp, are you out there?). Near as I
can tell, it isn't worth re-building.

I don't see why not. It looks like a pretty good door actually, even has
grooves in the dowels for glue squeeze out.

Get some epoxy, get some Cab-o-Sil, mix together to consistency of Vaseline,
put on dowels and dowel holes, spread along the matching edges of rails and
stiles, clamp together, unclamp after 24 hours and you are done. I'd still
be tempted to run in some lag bolts though...easier now that you know where
the dowels are (avoid them).

BTW, clean up epoxy squeeze out with vinegar.

Also BTW, you will need to do the other side too. Lags at least.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out...
http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On Sun, 15 Jul 2012 19:35:01 -0400, "somebody" wrote:

Who says the replacement dowels must be identical in dimension to the
old?

Me! :-)

If you can drill a solid hole, fit a dowel to it. Also, there's
nothing wrong w/ adding another couple.

Lost me, there. It's wood joinery: a good, tight fit is essential to
structural integrity. No?

Is it solid?

Yes.

The two doors on the garage here are on a west-facing wall
w/ no afternoon shade at all in W KS and they've been there for probably
60 years. If there were such a thing as just heat causing wood damage,
they would have been prime candidates.

Perhaps it's had some rot for some reason but heat (less than actually
burning it, of course) from just sun exposure I don't think is going to
be the problem.

Well, not -just- the heat. A hard rain, followed by a really hot day
plays hell with the wood joints. And it's seen 56+ years of 'em.

I go back to the key question--are the components still solid--will they
stand up to the ice pick test? If so it's fine; if the structural
condition is one of dry rot or similar and you can easily stick a pick
into the wood for a significant distance then yeah, it's past working on
or at least may need some new pieces-parts...I remake parts routinely
but I have the shaper and other tools need to do so and it's one of
those things I like doing besides...but not everybody has such
facilities/inclination, granted.

Understatement of the century? :-)

The ice pick test is somewhat inconclusive. The pick does -not- go in easily.
The wood splits in both directions (with the grain). It's flakier on the
rail than on the stile.

The wood in the exposed joint looks very dark and weathered.

The biggest impediment for me is still the dowels. If I can't get good,
tight-fitting dowels in the thing, I'm damned if I know how I can
properly rebuilt it for the coming years.

Bears mentioning that I tried really hard to get the thing square months
ago when I was trying to reinforce it. Put shims under the sagging end
(with door hung as original) and tried like hell to get it square. And
it wouldn't. I dunno if I can get it square even now.

--------------------------------------------
With the door off, now post a pic of the door rough opening. Tell how
wide the RO framing is.

Don't need a pic. It's just 2x4's, 32" between. RO?

A pre-hung may just fit if the numbers add up.

The glass on that door is an easy target for breakage to unlocked the
door. Not something I would have.

Nor I. They got my mower back around '85. I installed 1/4" plexi.
--------------------------------------------
I don't see why not. It looks like a pretty good door actually, even has
grooves in the dowels for glue squeeze out.

Get some epoxy, get some Cab-o-Sil, mix together to consistency of Vaseline,
put on dowels and dowel holes, spread along the matching edges of rails and
stiles, clamp together, unclamp after 24 hours and you are done. I'd still
be tempted to run in some lag bolts though...easier now that you know where
the dowels are (avoid them).

The stiles are 4" wide, the rails 24". I doubt lag bolts are practical.
See note re squaring above.
--------------------------------------------
I'll continue to cogitate, play with the thing for a couple days. Right
now I don't see how I can do it.

Many thanks for comments, suggestions, etc.

P

"Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."

On Jul 15, 9:39*pm, Puddin' Man wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jul 2012 19:35:01 -0400, "somebody" *wrote:
Who says the replacement dowels must be identical in dimension to the
old?

Me! :-)

If you can drill a solid hole, fit a dowel to it. *Also, there's
nothing wrong w/ adding another couple.

Lost me, there. It's wood joinery: a good, tight fit is essential to
structural integrity. No?

Is it solid?

Yes.

The two doors on the garage here are on a west-facing wall
w/ no afternoon shade at all in W KS and they've been there for probably
60 years. *If there were such a thing as just heat causing wood damage,
they would have been prime candidates.

Perhaps it's had some rot for some reason but heat (less than actually
burning it, of course) from just sun exposure I don't think is going to
be the problem.

Well, not -just- the heat. A hard rain, followed by a really hot day
plays hell with the wood joints. And it's seen 56+ years of 'em.

I go back to the key question--are the components still solid--will they
stand up to the ice pick test? *If so it's fine; if the structural
condition is one of dry rot or similar and you can easily stick a pick
into the wood for a significant distance then yeah, it's past working on
or at least may need some new pieces-parts...I remake parts routinely
but I have the shaper and other tools need to do so and it's one of
those things I like doing besides...but not everybody has such
facilities/inclination, granted.

Understatement of the century? :-)

The ice pick test is somewhat inconclusive. The pick does -not- go in *easily.
The wood splits in both directions (with the grain). It's flakier on the
rail than on the stile.

The wood in the exposed joint looks very dark and weathered.

The biggest impediment for me is still the dowels. If I can't get good,
tight-fitting dowels in the thing, I'm damned if I know how I can
properly rebuilt it for the coming years.

Bears mentioning that I tried really hard to get the thing square months
ago when I was trying to reinforce it. Put shims under the sagging end
(with door hung as original) and tried like hell to get it square. And
it wouldn't. I dunno if I can get it square even now.

--------------------------------------------
With the door off, now post a pic of the door rough opening. *Tell how
wide the RO framing is.

Don't need a pic. It's just 2x4's, 32" between. RO?

A pre-hung may just fit if the numbers add up.

The glass on that door is an easy target for breakage to unlocked the
door. *Not something I would have.

Nor I. They got my mower back around '85. I installed 1/4" plexi.

--------------------------------------------
I don't see why not. *It looks like a pretty good door actually, even has
grooves in the dowels for glue squeeze out.

Get some epoxy, get some Cab-o-Sil, mix together to consistency of Vaseline,
put on dowels and dowel holes, spread along the matching edges of rails and
stiles, clamp together, unclamp after 24 hours and you are done. *I'd still
be tempted to run in some lag bolts though...easier now that you know where
the dowels are (avoid them).

The stiles are 4" wide, the rails 24". I doubt lag bolts are practical.
See note re squaring above.--------------------------------------------

I'll continue to cogitate, play with the thing for a couple days. Right
now I don't see how I can do it.

Many thanks for comments, suggestions, etc.

* P

"Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."

I would buy a large container of white waterprooof glue and use it
liberally to put the dowels back in place, hold the door square and
let dry for at least 3 days. Are you sure the opening is truly
square, it would be pretty bad if the door were square and the opening
was not.

On Sun, 15 Jul 2012 21:32:36 -0700 (PDT), "hr(bob) "
wrote:



I would buy a large container of white waterprooof glue and use it
liberally to put the dowels back in place, hold the door square and
let dry for at least 3 days. Are you sure the opening is truly
square, it would be pretty bad if the door were square and the opening
was not.

That might work. What I've done with weathered windows (never did a
door) is soak in with boiled linseed oil until it won't take more, and
let that set a week or two. Seems to rejuvenate and add strength to
the wood. Without seeing how bad that wood is hard to tell.
Wood glue is pretty strong, and since this door will be repainted
wiping off excess glue is no problem.
The big deal is clamping it all square. Nothing to lose but some glue
and time.

--
Vic

Puddin' Man wrote:

The stiles are 4" wide, the rails 24". I doubt lag bolts are
practical.
See note re squaring above.
--------------------------------------------

Why do you think lags aren't practical

Pipe clamps will pull it together. If needed, a long one across a diagonal
will square it.



--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out...
http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On Jul 15, 10:39*pm, Puddin' Man wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jul 2012 19:35:01 -0400, "somebody" *wrote:
Who says the replacement dowels must be identical in dimension to the
old?

Me! :-)

If you can drill a solid hole, fit a dowel to it. *Also, there's
nothing wrong w/ adding another couple.

Lost me, there. It's wood joinery: a good, tight fit is essential to
structural integrity. No?

What he's saying is you're not limited to only the
dowel size there now. There is likely enough room
that you could ream the hole out to a slightly larger
size that accomodates the proper fit of a new larger
diameter dowel.

Or if that isn't possible, I'd consider using a piece of
cloth of the right thickness. Saturate it with glue, place
it over the end of the dowel and tap it all together.

Also, the point about making sure the door frame is
perfectly square is important. You don't want to have
a square door that then won't fit because the door
frame is out of square.

On 7/16/2012 7:21 AM, wrote:
....

Also, the point about making sure the door frame is
perfectly square is important. You don't want to have
a square door that then won't fit because the door
frame is out of square.
....

I disagree in worrying about that at this point. Repair the door
correctly, then either resquare the opening if needed or trim a little
if it's just a tiny tad out.

But, the door came from the opening; start w/ the assumption they were
matched then deal with it in the manner that will be seen best when
rehanging it.

--

On Jul 16, 8:33*am, dpb wrote:
On 7/16/2012 7:21 AM, wrote:
...

Also, the point about making sure the door frame is
perfectly square is important. *You don't want to have
a square door that then won't fit because the door
frame is out of square.

...

I disagree in worrying about that at this point. *Repair the door
correctly, then either resquare the opening if needed or trim a little
if it's just a tiny tad out.

I would have looked at this issue before removing the
door. If the door is out of square a bit in the same
direction as the door, then I'd try to determine how much
I could return the door to square and still have it likely
work. As long as it's visibly not noticeable, that could
save him more fitting work later on. And it could also be
easier with the door repair as he's expressed doubts
about whether he can get the door back to square.
It would kind of suck to spend a lot of time getting the
door square, only to then have more work to put it
back in the opening.

As for re-squaring the opening, he's hell bent on
not doing anything with the existing opening, which
is not a standard jamb and shim arrangement, but
just 2 x 4's. The framing is completely exposed on
the inside, no drywall, sheathing, etc, so I agree
doing whatever to it should not be a big deal,
but it is for Puddin.

On 7/16/2012 7:56 AM, wrote:
....

I would have looked at this issue before removing the
door. If the door is out of square a bit in the same
direction as the door, then I'd try to determine how much
I could return the door to square and still have it likely
work. ...

Well he can do that just as well (and probably easier, actually) w/ the
door out of the way if that's the way he wants to tackle it. Not _my_
way, but it's his door, I'm just providing advice on how I'd approach it
here.

If it's to try to determine how far out of square to leave it, just
measure the two diagonals of the opening w/ a story stick and transfers
that to the door laying on the work surface. Far simpler than trying to
do something of the sort in place.

I've not seen or don't recall pictures of the opening; I saw one of the
subject door way back when but the question had to do w/ the shape it
was in so that's what I concentrated upon...

--

On 7/15/2012 9:39 PM, Puddin' Man wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jul 2012 19:35:01 -0400, "somebody" wrote:

Who says the replacement dowels must be identical in dimension to the
old?

Me! :-)

Well, then you're limiting yourself unnecessarily...

If you can drill a solid hole, fit a dowel to it. Also, there's
nothing wrong w/ adding another couple.

Lost me, there. It's wood joinery: a good, tight fit is essential to
structural integrity. No?

That's what you're going to make when you match a dowel to a hole...and
clean up the other surfaces of loose paint, dirt and the oxidized
surface layer...

Is it solid?

Yes.

Then that's all the confirmation needed it's doable...

....

Well, not -just- the heat. A hard rain, followed by a really hot day
plays hell with the wood joints. And it's seen 56+ years of 'em.

Well, these two have seen nearly double that number...

....

The ice pick test is somewhat inconclusive. The pick does -not- go in easily.
The wood splits in both directions (with the grain). It's flakier on the
rail than on the stile.

The wood in the exposed joint looks very dark and weathered.

The biggest impediment for me is still the dowels. If I can't get good,
tight-fitting dowels in the thing, I'm damned if I know how I can
properly rebuilt it for the coming years.

Bears mentioning that I tried really hard to get the thing square months
ago when I was trying to reinforce it. Put shims under the sagging end
(with door hung as original) and tried like hell to get it square. And
it wouldn't. I dunno if I can get it square even now.
....

If the holes have become hogged out because of flexing over the years
(and/or the dowels have shrunk as well) to the point the existing dowels
are too small the answer is simply -- get new dowels that do fit. You
may need to do a combination of sizing a dowel and reboring a hole.

As another poster says, you can try some fillers, but I've had far
better luck simply resizing...

Get some epoxy, get some Cab-o-Sil, mix together to consistency of Vaseline,
put on dowels and dowel holes, spread along the matching edges of rails and
stiles, clamp together, unclamp after 24 hours and you are done. I'd still
be tempted to run in some lag bolts though...easier now that you know where
the dowels are (avoid them).

The stiles are 4" wide, the rails 24". I doubt lag bolts are practical.
See note re squaring above.
--------------------------------------------
I'll continue to cogitate, play with the thing for a couple days. Right
now I don't see how I can do it.
....

I suggest again still against the lag bolt idea; once you go that route
it's a downhill spiral on the pieces of the door and you're asking for
them to hold into end grain which isn't their strong suit to start with...

As for squaring it up, the other poster is correct in suggesting a
long-enough pipe clamp to reach diagonally in the correct direction to
pull it back into shape. You'll want to do this dry at least a couple
of times before regluing to make sure you know where you're headed
before the glue is there to make it a time problem. You also need to
work on all the joints that are loose while you have it apart and clean
up the paint and dirt, etc., that's in the cracks preventing stuff from
going back together.

It'll take some time and mostly patience...don't try to do it all in 15
minutes...

BTW, afaik there is no "waterproof white wood glue" -- this is one
application for the otherwise over-hyped "Grizzly" polyurethane glues
altho my recommendation would be Titebond III. It's a waterborne glue
that doesn't foam and is waterproof against occasional wetting as the
application here...

You _CAN_ do this...

--

On Mon, 16 Jul 2012 07:26:34 -0500, dpb wrote:



You _CAN_ do this...

All good advice, The main problem will be removing old dowels that
resist. I counsel patient twisting, between hammer taps.

--
Vic

On 7/16/2012 7:43 AM, Vic Smith wrote:
On Mon, 16 Jul 2012 07:26:34 -0500, wrote:



You _CAN_ do this...

All good advice, The main problem will be removing old dowels that
resist. I counsel patient twisting, between hammer taps.

Then drill the remnants out after they've broken off...

BTW, the best way to do that is to get a doweling jig and use it as if
were drilling new holes. Use a smaller (say 3/8") guide first an test
drill to ensure have it centered before committing to the final run.

--

On 7/16/2012 7:26 AM, dpb wrote:
....

BTW, afaik there is no "waterproof white wood glue" --

Well, I guess I should modify that--I believe maybe it's Elmer's that
has introduced one relatively recently seems like I now do recall seeing
some ads for in Fine Woodworking or somewhere or maybe in the New
Product section. I've no experience w/ it; Elmer's in general makes
good products so I'll presume this one (again assuming it is it) is, too.

I just know the others _very_ well...and virtually any local building
supply or hardware will have Titebond III in stock.

--

a.) The opening appears to be square. Can't tell precisely because hinges
are necessary to secure garage, but the non-hinged side -is- square,
and the door -used- to fit ~ square (before sagging), so I doubt this
is an issue.

b.) I'll measure some more, but, if they are all ~ .612, I'll see if I can
find a 5/8 (=.625)" dowel and test for fit, drilling as necessary. If
that's in the ball park, I guess I'll commit suicide and endeavor to
break all joints and clean 'em out, and proceed to see if I can get
the damned thing square.

And maybe try Habitat Restore again on the off chance they've got a
serviceable 32x80x1.25" door.

I'm old and in poor health. It happens every summer: something tricky
breaks and I'm running around like the proverbial headless chicken
for 40 days / 40 nites. Izza Super-PITA. :-(

Will report back eventually. Slow work with other commitments afoot.

Thanks,
P

On Mon, 16 Jul 2012 07:26:34 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 7/15/2012 9:39 PM, Puddin' Man wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jul 2012 19:35:01 -0400, "somebody" wrote:

Who says the replacement dowels must be identical in dimension to the
old?

Me! :-)

Well, then you're limiting yourself unnecessarily...

If you can drill a solid hole, fit a dowel to it. Also, there's
nothing wrong w/ adding another couple.

Lost me, there. It's wood joinery: a good, tight fit is essential to
structural integrity. No?

That's what you're going to make when you match a dowel to a hole...and
clean up the other surfaces of loose paint, dirt and the oxidized
surface layer...

Is it solid?

Yes.

Then that's all the confirmation needed it's doable...

...

Well, not -just- the heat. A hard rain, followed by a really hot day
plays hell with the wood joints. And it's seen 56+ years of 'em.

Well, these two have seen nearly double that number...

...

The ice pick test is somewhat inconclusive. The pick does -not- go in easily.
The wood splits in both directions (with the grain). It's flakier on the
rail than on the stile.

The wood in the exposed joint looks very dark and weathered.

The biggest impediment for me is still the dowels. If I can't get good,
tight-fitting dowels in the thing, I'm damned if I know how I can
properly rebuilt it for the coming years.

Bears mentioning that I tried really hard to get the thing square months
ago when I was trying to reinforce it. Put shims under the sagging end
(with door hung as original) and tried like hell to get it square. And
it wouldn't. I dunno if I can get it square even now.
...

If the holes have become hogged out because of flexing over the years
(and/or the dowels have shrunk as well) to the point the existing dowels
are too small the answer is simply -- get new dowels that do fit. You
may need to do a combination of sizing a dowel and reboring a hole.

As another poster says, you can try some fillers, but I've had far
better luck simply resizing...

Get some epoxy, get some Cab-o-Sil, mix together to consistency of Vaseline,
put on dowels and dowel holes, spread along the matching edges of rails and
stiles, clamp together, unclamp after 24 hours and you are done. I'd still
be tempted to run in some lag bolts though...easier now that you know where
the dowels are (avoid them).

The stiles are 4" wide, the rails 24". I doubt lag bolts are practical.
See note re squaring above.
--------------------------------------------
I'll continue to cogitate, play with the thing for a couple days. Right
now I don't see how I can do it.
...

I suggest again still against the lag bolt idea; once you go that route
it's a downhill spiral on the pieces of the door and you're asking for
them to hold into end grain which isn't their strong suit to start with...

As for squaring it up, the other poster is correct in suggesting a
long-enough pipe clamp to reach diagonally in the correct direction to
pull it back into shape. You'll want to do this dry at least a couple
of times before regluing to make sure you know where you're headed
before the glue is there to make it a time problem. You also need to
work on all the joints that are loose while you have it apart and clean
up the paint and dirt, etc., that's in the cracks preventing stuff from
going back together.

It'll take some time and mostly patience...don't try to do it all in 15
minutes...

BTW, afaik there is no "waterproof white wood glue" -- this is one
application for the otherwise over-hyped "Grizzly" polyurethane glues
altho my recommendation would be Titebond III. It's a waterborne glue
that doesn't foam and is waterproof against occasional wetting as the
application here...

You _CAN_ do this...

"Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."

On Jul 16, 1:33*pm, Puddin' Man wrote:
a.) The opening appears to be square. Can't tell precisely because hinges
* * are necessary to secure garage, but the non-hinged side -is- square,
* * and the door -used- to fit ~ square (before sagging), so I doubt this
* * is an issue.

b.) I'll measure some more, but, if they are all ~ .612, I'll see if I can
* * find a 5/8 (=.625)" dowel and test for fit, drilling as necessary. If
* * that's in the ball park, I guess I'll commit suicide and endeavor to
* * break all joints and clean 'em out, and proceed to see if I can get
* * the damned thing square.

And maybe try Habitat Restore again on the off chance they've got a
serviceable 32x80x1.25" door.

I'm old and in poor health. It happens every summer: something tricky
breaks and I'm running around like the proverbial headless chicken
for 40 days / 40 nites. Izza Super-PITA. :-(

Will report back eventually. Slow work with other commitments afoot.

* Thanks,
* P





On Mon, 16 Jul 2012 07:26:34 -0500, dpb wrote:
On 7/15/2012 9:39 PM, Puddin' Man wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jul 2012 19:35:01 -0400, "somebody" *wrote:

Who says the replacement dowels must be identical in dimension to the
old?

Me! :-)

Well, then you're limiting yourself unnecessarily...

If you can drill a solid hole, fit a dowel to it. *Also, there's
nothing wrong w/ adding another couple.

Lost me, there. It's wood joinery: a good, tight fit is essential to
structural integrity. No?

That's what you're going to make when you match a dowel to a hole...and
clean up the other surfaces of loose paint, dirt and the oxidized
surface layer...

Is it solid?

Yes.

Then that's all the confirmation needed it's doable...

...

Well, not -just- the heat. A hard rain, followed by a really hot day
plays hell with the wood joints. And it's seen 56+ years of 'em.

Well, these two have seen nearly double that number...

...

The ice pick test is somewhat inconclusive. The pick does -not- go in *easily.
The wood splits in both directions (with the grain). It's flakier on the
rail than on the stile.

The wood in the exposed joint looks very dark and weathered.

The biggest impediment for me is still the dowels. If I can't get good,
tight-fitting dowels in the thing, I'm damned if I know how I can
properly rebuilt it for the coming years.

Bears mentioning that I tried really hard to get the thing square months
ago when I was trying to reinforce it. Put shims under the sagging end
(with door hung as original) and tried like hell to get it square. And
it wouldn't. I dunno if I can get it square even now.
...

If the holes have become hogged out because of flexing over the years
(and/or the dowels have shrunk as well) to the point the existing dowels
are too small the answer is simply -- get new dowels that do fit. *You
may need to do a combination of sizing a dowel and reboring a hole.

As another poster says, you can try some fillers, but I've had far
better luck simply resizing...

Get some epoxy, get some Cab-o-Sil, mix together to consistency of Vaseline,
put on dowels and dowel holes, spread along the matching edges of rails and
stiles, clamp together, unclamp after 24 hours and you are done. *I'd still
be tempted to run in some lag bolts though...easier now that you know where
the dowels are (avoid them).

The stiles are 4" wide, the rails 24". I doubt lag bolts are practical..
See note re squaring above.
--------------------------------------------
I'll continue to cogitate, play with the thing for a couple days. Right
now I don't see how I can do it.
...

I suggest again still against the lag bolt idea; once you go that route
it's a downhill spiral on the pieces of the door and you're asking for
them to hold into end grain which isn't their strong suit to start with....

As for squaring it up, the other poster is correct in suggesting a
long-enough pipe clamp to reach diagonally in the correct direction to
pull it back into shape. *You'll want to do this dry at least a couple
of times before regluing to make sure you know where you're headed
before the glue is there to make it a time problem. *You also need to
work on all the joints that are loose while you have it apart and clean
up the paint and dirt, etc., that's in the cracks preventing stuff from
going back together.

It'll take some time and mostly patience...don't try to do it all in 15
minutes...

BTW, afaik there is no "waterproof white wood glue" -- this is one
application for the otherwise over-hyped "Grizzly" polyurethane glues
altho my recommendation would be Titebond III. *It's a waterborne glue
that doesn't foam and is waterproof against occasional wetting as the
application here...

You _CAN_ do this...

"Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You mention the thickness again, that shouldn't matter as long as you
get the hinges mounted so the door fits tightly in the opening. Even
2 inches thick would work if you offset the hinges properly.

On 7/16/2012 1:53 PM, hr(bob) wrote:
....

You mention the thickness again, that shouldn't matter as long as you
get the hinges mounted so the door fits tightly in the opening. Even
2 inches thick would work if you offset the hinges properly.

He'll need a deep-enough casing to be able to, though...or the back
holes of the hinges will be in air or so close to edge they'll be likely
to split out. Other than that, though, if there is the width, it'll
work, correct.

--

On Jul 16, 2:33*pm, Puddin' Man wrote:
a.) The opening appears to be square.

You can't tell square by appearances. You might be able to tell un-
square if an opening is seriously out of square, but if it's close,
you can't see it by eye.

Can't tell precisely because hinges
* * are necessary to secure garage, but the non-hinged side -is- square,

Do you know what square means?

To state that the non-hinged side is square makes no sense. A single
side can not be square. A side can only be square in relation to the
top or bottom.

Perhaps you mean that the non-hinged side is plumb?

Stolen without permission from http://www.renovation-headquarters.c...vel-square.htm

*****

Plumb: Plumb is defined as true to a vertical plane.

Level: Level is defined as true to a horizontal plane.

Squa Square is when a plumbed object intersects with a level object
they create a 90 degree angle.

*****

You could say that the non-hinged side is square in relation to the
top (or bottom) but you can't simply say that the non-hinged side is
square.

The hinges should in no way prevent you from determining if the
opening is square. Measure the 2 diagonals, top corner to opposite
bottom corner. If those 2 measurements are equal, the opening is
square.

* * and the door -used- to fit ~ square (before sagging), so I doubt this
* * is an issue.


Even if the door fit, it does not mean that the opening is square. If
the door was altered to fit an un-square opening, it would fit, but it
woudn't be square.

That's why so many people have said that you might be unpleasantly
surprised if you spend time squaring the door in your workshop only to
find that the opening is not square.

You either have to square the opening if the door ends up square, or
you need to unsquare the door if you can't fix the opening.

The shape of the 2 objects must be the same.


..

On Mon, 16 Jul 2012 16:19:54 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Jul 16, 2:33*pm, Puddin' Man wrote:
a.) The opening appears to be square.

You can't tell square by appearances. You might be able to tell un-
square if an opening is seriously out of square, but if it's close,
you can't see it by eye.


This thread will go past the next election; local or otherwise. You
can't plumb or square a 6' RO with a 4" level. Cannot even plumb an
8' RO with a 6' level. Ya gotta know the tricks.

Can't tell precisely because hinges
* * are necessary to secure garage, but the non-hinged side -is- square,

Do you know what square means?

Sure he does, by appearance. Looks good from my house.


To state that the non-hinged side is square makes no sense. A single
side can not be square. A side can only be square in relation to the
top or bottom.


Oops!

Perhaps you mean that the non-hinged side is plumb?

Stolen without permission from http://www.renovation-headquarters.c...vel-square.htm

*****

Plumb: Plumb is defined as true to a vertical plane.


In my universe.

Level: Level is defined as true to a horizontal plane.


See my universe.

Squa Square is when a plumbed object intersects with a level object
they create a 90 degree angle.


See wut I mean.

*****

You could say that the non-hinged side is square in relation to the
top (or bottom) but you can't simply say that the non-hinged side is
square.


Nope - check it twice.

The hinges should in no way prevent you from determining if the
opening is square. Measure the 2 diagonals, top corner to opposite
bottom corner. If those 2 measurements are equal, the opening is
square.

Don't read the tape upside down.


* * and the door -used- to fit ~ square (before sagging), so I doubt this
* * is an issue.


Even if the door fit, it does not mean that the opening is square. If
the door was altered to fit an un-square opening, it would fit, but it
woudn't be square.

A winner folks.


That's why so many people have said that you might be unpleasantly
surprised if you spend time squaring the door in your workshop only to
find that the opening is not square.


Did we yet suggest a pre-hung?

You either have to square the opening if the door ends up square, or
you need to unsquare the door if you can't fix the opening.

The shape of the 2 objects must be the same.

In my neighborhood it does.

On Mon, 16 Jul 2012 16:19:54 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Jul 16, 2:33Â*pm, Puddin' Man wrote:
a.) The opening appears to be square.

You can't tell square by appearances. You might be able to tell un-
square if an opening is seriously out of square, but if it's close,
you can't see it by eye.

Can't tell precisely because hinges
Â* Â* are necessary to secure garage, but the non-hinged side -is- square,

Do you know what square means?

To state that the non-hinged side is square makes no sense. A single
side can not be square. A side can only be square in relation to the
top or bottom.

Perhaps you mean that the non-hinged side is plumb?

Stolen without permission from http://www.renovation-headquarters.c...vel-square.htm

*****

Plumb: Plumb is defined as true to a vertical plane.

Level: Level is defined as true to a horizontal plane.

Squa Square is when a plumbed object intersects with a level object
they create a 90 degree angle.

*****

You could say that the non-hinged side is square in relation to the
top (or bottom) but you can't simply say that the non-hinged side is
square.

The hinges should in no way prevent you from determining if the
opening is square. Measure the 2 diagonals, top corner to opposite
bottom corner. If those 2 measurements are equal, the opening is
square.

Or just grab an old framing square and hold it into each top corner.
"close enough for government work"


Â* Â* and the door -used- to fit ~ square (before sagging), so I doubt this
Â* Â* is an issue.


Even if the door fit, it does not mean that the opening is square. If
the door was altered to fit an un-square opening, it would fit, but it
woudn't be square.

That's why so many people have said that you might be unpleasantly
surprised if you spend time squaring the door in your workshop only to
find that the opening is not square.

You either have to square the opening if the door ends up square, or
you need to unsquare the door if you can't fix the opening.

The shape of the 2 objects must be the same.


.

On Jul 16, 7:19*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Jul 16, 2:33*pm, Puddin' Man wrote:

a.) The opening appears to be square.

You can't tell square by appearances. You might be able to tell un-
square if an opening is seriously out of square, but if it's close,
you can't see it by eye.

* * *Can't tell precisely because hinges
* * are necessary to secure garage, but the non-hinged side -is- square,

Do you know what square means?

To state that the non-hinged side is square makes no sense. A single
side can not be square. A side can only be square in relation to the
top or bottom.

I would think he means that the non-hinged side is
square relative to both the top and bottom.





Perhaps you mean that the non-hinged side is plumb?

Stolen without permission fromhttp://www.renovation-headquarters.com/plumb-level-square.htm

*****

Plumb: Plumb is defined as true to a vertical plane.

Level: Level is defined as true to a horizontal plane.

Squa Square is when a plumbed object intersects with a level object
they create a 90 degree angle.

*****

You could say that the non-hinged side is square in relation to the
top (or bottom) but you can't simply say that the non-hinged side is
square.

I would take what he said to mean that the non-hinge
side is square as you describe above.




The hinges should in no way prevent you from determining if the
opening is square.

Now that part I don't get either. I don't see
why the door and hinges being there would prevent
one from using a square.





Measure the 2 diagonals, top corner to opposite
bottom corner. If those 2 measurements are equal, the opening is
square.

* * and the door -used- to fit ~ square (before sagging), so I doubt this
* * is an issue.

Even if the door fit, it does not mean that the opening is square. If
the door was altered to fit an un-square opening, it would fit, but it
woudn't be square.

That's why so many people have said that you might be unpleasantly
surprised if you spend time squaring the door in your workshop only to
find that the opening is not square.

You either have to square the opening if the door ends up square, or
you need to unsquare the door if you can't fix the opening.

The shape of the 2 objects must be the same.


Ditto that.

On Sun, 15 Jul 2012 15:33:57 -0500, Puddin' Man
wrote:


For those crazy enought to try to follow the multiple threads:

OP1 - Sagging Garage Door 6-17-12
OP2 - How difficult is it to "build" a door? 7-11-12

In a nutshell, I got a sheet of 1/2" MDF from HD cut to 32x80", attached
some blocks for the hinges, installed the old lockset, and viola, I've
built a (very crude and temp) door. The garage is at least secure.

The old and offending door is on work-horses in the basement. I am
evaluating the potential for rebuilding the door. Methinks it
doesn't look so good:

http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/...07-2012001.jpg
http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/...07-2012002.jpg
http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/...07-2012003.jpg

Your candid opinion is solicited (dbp, are you out there?). Near as I can tell, it
isn't worth re-building.

Thx,
P

"Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."
No reason with a bit of work the door can't be revived for another 10
or more years, from what I could see.

Notes on testing sagging door for square, etc.

I have 2 pony clamps on plumbers pipe to try to pull the thing into square.

I mount the long pony on the diagonal of the door (top left to bottom right)
and tighten. The window pane in the low left quadrant starts cracking.

There's a sizable gap on the left side between stile and the third rail. I put
the shorter Pony across the middle and tighten. The window pane in the low left quadrant
starts cracking *again*.

Neither operation put the door in square.

I put a rule across the bottom left rail and stile. They are not level: the
stile tapers off on the left edge. So I clamp a couple hardwood boards
across the bottom left rail and stile. And it still drops off a little.

After the door started sagging and scraping on the cement floor, it's sure the
paint came off the bottom at spots, allowing the stile and maybe rail to "wick
up" rainwater periodically, resulting in the kind of wood damage I'm seeing.

I'm running out of ideas. But I'm still listening.

P

"Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."

Puddin' Man wrote:
Notes on testing sagging door for square, etc.

I have 2 pony clamps on plumbers pipe to try to pull the thing into
square.

I mount the long pony on the diagonal of the door (top left to bottom
right)
and tighten. The window pane in the low left quadrant starts cracking.

There's a sizable gap on the left side between stile and the third
rail. I put
the shorter Pony across the middle and tighten. The window pane in
the low left quadrant starts cracking *again*.

Neither operation put the door in square.

I put a rule across the bottom left rail and stile. They are not
level: the
stile tapers off on the left edge. So I clamp a couple hardwood boards
across the bottom left rail and stile. And it still drops off a
little.

After the door started sagging and scraping on the cement floor, it's
sure the
paint came off the bottom at spots, allowing the stile and maybe rail
to "wick
up" rainwater periodically, resulting in the kind of wood damage I'm
seeing.

I'm running out of ideas. But I'm still listening.

1. Take out the glass

2. From your most recent photos, the lock stile seems to be pretty
chock-o-block to the rails; the hinge stile does not...it is far from the
rails at the bottom, close at the top. You need to get it evened up if you
plan to reuse the dowels. Do that by tapping in the bottom a bit, prying
out the top. A little at a time in both cases.

3. Once you have the hinge stile more or less parallel to the rest of the
door, clean up the dowels, dowel holes and coped edges a bit.

4. Slather the dowels, dowel holes and coped edges with thickened epoxy. If
the dowels are loose in the holes it doesn't matter as the epoxy will fill
very well.

5. Use a rubber mallet and start tapping the stile in a little at a time;
try to keep it as parallel as possible to the rest of the door; you do that
by tapping at one end, then a little farter along, then a little farther
along, etc. Once it is in (or before if tapping with a mallet doesn't move
it) put your pipe clamps across the width and tighten...again,
gradually...first one clamp, then another. Your goal is to move the stile
to the rails keeping it as parallel as possible to the rest of the door.
Ideally, use at least four clamps...one each at 2-3" from the top & bottom,
the other two to divide up the remaining length of the stile evenly. If all
you have is two and you have to use them to move the stile, you can tighten,
reposition, tighten, etc. Once the stile is against the rails they do NOT
need to be cinched down very hard, just enough to keep things tight.

As you are tapping, clamping, keep checking the door for square...if you
have cleaned out loose crud from the coped edges, it should go together
pretty square but if need be, tighten/loosen clamps or pry as necessary. If
a disaster occurs and it winds up unsguare, you can always trim and/or add
wood to make it so. As already mentioned a couple of times, vinegar cleans
off epoxy squeeze out.

6. Reglaze.

I still think some lags are a good idea. I'd be pretty much willing to bet
that the naysayers who say they won't hold in end grain have never used them
in that manner. I would *definitely* be willing to bet that they will hold
perfectly if you followed my original suggestion of firming up the holes
with super glue; ditto with epoxy. I like the super glue because I don't
have to leave stuff clamped up for 24 hours while epoxy sets but - other
than that - it is just as good. Better if the wood is damaged.

The water damage to the wood didn't come from paint rubbing off the bottom
and water wicking up. It came because the rails had separated form the
stiles and rain water was running down into the resultant "V".

How can glass "start to crack"? It either cracks or it doesn't.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out...
http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On Jul 17, 12:57*pm, "dadiOH" wrote:
Puddin' Man wrote:
Notes on testing sagging door for square, etc.

I have 2 pony clamps on plumbers pipe to try to pull the thing into
square.

I mount the long pony on the diagonal of the door (top left to bottom
right)
and tighten. The window pane in the low left quadrant starts cracking.

There's a sizable gap on the left side between stile and the third
rail. I put
the shorter Pony across the middle and tighten. The window pane in
the low left quadrant starts cracking *again*.

Neither operation put the door in square.

I put a rule across the bottom left rail and stile. They are not
level: the
stile tapers off on the left edge. So I clamp a couple hardwood boards
across the bottom left rail and stile. And it still drops off a
little.

After the door started sagging and scraping on the cement floor, it's
sure the
paint came off the bottom at spots, allowing the stile and maybe rail
to "wick
up" rainwater periodically, resulting in the kind of wood damage I'm
seeing.

I'm running out of ideas. But I'm still listening.

1. Take out the glass

2. From your most recent photos, the lock stile seems to be pretty
chock-o-block to the rails; the hinge stile does not...it is far from the
rails at the bottom, close at the top. *You need to get it evened up if you
plan to reuse the dowels. *Do that by tapping in the bottom a bit, prying
out the top. *A little at a time in both cases.

3. Once you have the hinge stile more or less parallel to the rest of the
door, clean up the dowels, dowel holes and coped edges a bit.

4. Slather the dowels, dowel holes and coped edges with thickened epoxy. *If
the dowels are loose in the holes it doesn't matter as the epoxy will fill
very well.

5. Use a rubber mallet and start tapping the stile in a little at a time;
try to keep it as parallel as possible to the rest of the door; you do that
by tapping at one end, then a little farter along, then a little farther
along, etc. *Once it is in (or before if tapping with a mallet doesn't move
it) put your pipe clamps across the width and tighten...again,
gradually...first one clamp, then another. *Your goal is to move the stile
to the rails keeping it as parallel as possible to the rest of the door.
Ideally, use at least four clamps...one each at 2-3" from the top & bottom,
the other two to divide up the remaining length of the stile evenly. *If all
you have is two and you have to use them to move the stile, you can tighten,
reposition, tighten, etc. *Once the stile is against the rails they do NOT
need to be cinched down very hard, just enough to keep things tight.

As you are tapping, clamping, keep checking the door for square...if you
have cleaned out loose crud from the coped edges, it should go together
pretty square but if need be, tighten/loosen clamps or pry as necessary. *If
a disaster occurs and it winds up unsguare, you can always trim and/or add
wood to make it so. *As already mentioned a couple of times, vinegar cleans
off epoxy squeeze out.

6. Reglaze.

I still think some lags are a good idea. *I'd be pretty much willing to bet
that the naysayers who say they won't hold in end grain have never used them
in that manner. *I would *definitely* be willing to bet that they will hold
perfectly if you followed my original suggestion of firming up the holes
with super glue; ditto with epoxy. *I like the super glue because I don't
have to leave stuff clamped up for 24 hours while epoxy sets but - other
than that - it is just as good. *Better if the wood is damaged.

The water damage to the wood didn't come from paint rubbing off the bottom
and water wicking up. *It came because the rails had separated form the
stiles and rain water was running down into the resultant "V".

How can glass "start to crack"? *It either cracks or it doesn't.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? *Tired of the rat race?
Maybe just ready for a change? *Check it out...http://www.floridaloghouse.net- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

or...

Install a pre-hung door.

DerbyDad03 wrote:

or...

Install a pre-hung door.

I nave nothing against pre-hung doors, even have 3-4. But they aren't the
panacea you seem to think they are. Especially if you have never installed
one.

First of all, they are not all that rigid. They are easy to rack.
Especially when using the necessary shims.

Shims aren't all that hard either especially if one understands that they
are used in pairs. If not, it is duck soup to bow or wind the jamb(s).
Then there is the matter of where to place them (shims).

Once the jambs are shimmed where they should be and are square and/or
parallel as the case may be to each other and are perpendicular to the wall,
there is the matter of fastening. All the preceding can be easily undone by
improper fastening.

In OPs case, he already has jambs. The 2x4s. He also has a door. All he
need do is fix the door and rehang it. Or replace it and I'm with you(?)
and others in that respect...I don't understand why he thinks he can't hang
another door of proper width & height - regardless of thickness - where the
old one was.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out...
http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On Jul 17, 3:07*pm, "dadiOH" wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:
or...

....

Install a pre-hung door.

First of, that was half a joke based on how many times that solution
has been proposed by many - and refused by the OP.


I nave nothing against pre-hung doors, even have 3-4. *But they aren't the
panacea you seem to think they are. *Especially if you have never installed
one.

I've done many, both interior and entry, wood, fiberglass and steel.
I'm guessing the OP hasn't.

The worst was an installation on top of a 10" step into a basement
room in a seriously unsquare opening that was both too wide and too
narrow for any standard size door. In addition, the RO on the latch
side was just paneling between studs. We ended up attaching a 1 x 6 to
the closest stud, flat on the face of the paneling, to both fill the
gap and to give us a solid surface on which to mount/shim the jamb.

Once it was trimmed, it came out OK, especially since the goal was
just to give my son a little privacy in a basement room he was
renting. Any door, even a weirdly hung one, is better than a wide open
doorway into your "apartment".


First of all, they are not all that rigid. *They are easy to rack.
Especially when using the necessary shims.

Shims aren't all that hard either especially if one understands that they
are used in pairs. *If not, it is duck soup to bow or wind the jamb(s).
Then there is the matter of where to place them (shims).

Agree.


Once the jambs are shimmed where they should be and are square and/or
parallel as the case may be to each other and are perpendicular to the wall,
there is the matter of fastening. *All the preceding can be easily undone by
improper fastening.

Agree.


In OPs case, he already has jambs. *The 2x4s.

Agree, to some extent. Yes, by definition, the RO is also the jamb in
this case.

However, the jamb of a pre-hung door, or even a separate jamb kit, can
be shimmed square if the RO isn't.

The OP says the RO "appears square" and even claims that "the non-
hinge side is square". He says can't check the other side because of
the hinges. Those statements tell me that he doesn't known what square
means.

He also has a door. *All he
need do is fix the door and rehang it.

Agree, to some extent. He seems to be trying to fix it in the
basement, without actually determining whether or not the RO is
square. It would suck to be him if he gets the door all nice and
square only to find that his RO isn't square. Remember, according to
him, he can't check the RO for square because of the hinges. We've yet
to hear an explanation for that claim.

Or replace it and I'm with you(?)
and others in that respect...I don't understand why he thinks he can't hang
another door of proper width & height - regardless of thickness - where the
old one was.

I submit that the reason is becasue he is over his head and is going
to trot blindly down the "I'm gonna fix and square up this old door"
path regardless of where it takes him.

On 7/16/2012 6:27 PM, Puddin' Man wrote:
Notes on testing sagging door for square, etc.
....

I'm running out of ideas. But I'm still listening.
....

Well, you're far better off w/o the glass in place while you're messing
around.

My first question is have you really cleaned up the joint areas and so
on to give it room to move back up tightly against the original coped
edges? Until that is done and done thoroughly, all else is futile--two
objects can't occupy the same space at the same time. If there's paint
and/or dirt where the stile is suppose to end up being, needless to say
it ain't a gonna' go there.

I get a feeling of lack of patience here---it's meticulous, detail work,
not something that can be just "slam-bam, thank you..." and done. If
you don't have the patience to truly do the detail work you may as well
just toss the door in the alley and go on.

I _still_ disagree that you want lag bolts--yeah, they'll sorta hold for
a while but old wood that is somewhat deteriorated will mostly just fail
first and the dowels and glue will last much longer once they're fit
properly. If you think you need more, I'd add another dowel or two instead.

And, again, on the order of things...absolutely do _NOT_ add epoxy
and/or glue until you have _successfully_ brought the door into the
final desired position at least once (and preferably more than once) w/
a "dry fit". Once you've got the glue in there (and even worse w/ an
epoxy and it doesn't quite go, then again you may as well plan on
tossing it in the scrap heap.

Again, to reiterate--'patience, patience, patience....

I've said all I can; I'm not monitoring this thread any longer as it's
beginning to "make my eyes bleed" as a particular entertainer is wont to
exclaim when news upsets him...frustration does the same thing.

--

I made another pass thru the Restore today, and came up empty.

Also made concerted effort to split off the hinge stile from the rest and
partially failed. It more-or-less separated itself at the bottom, and the
intermediate rails separated, but the stile wouldn't come free of the top rail.
The lock stile did separate on the other side of the top rail. The pattern of
the joint is very intricate, and it doesn't wanna break. What did they use to
bind such stuff back in 1955? Glue? Epoxy?? What (if any) chemical can I use to
break the joint???

Y'all may or may-not be interested in the simple fact that I've been
studiously trying to avoid the business of "trying to stuff a square
peg in a round hole" which many responses have suggested. It looked
really simple when I started ("just replace the flogging door, f'crissake!").
Now it looks a mess.

Do they even *make* exterior pre-hungs measuring 30 x (80-?) x 1 3/4"? Would it
*really* fit 32 x 80 opening?? How expensive???

Thx,
P

On Sun, 15 Jul 2012 15:33:57 -0500, Puddin' Man wrote:


For those crazy enought to try to follow the multiple threads:

OP1 - Sagging Garage Door 6-17-12
OP2 - How difficult is it to "build" a door? 7-11-12

In a nutshell, I got a sheet of 1/2" MDF from HD cut to 32x80", attached
some blocks for the hinges, installed the old lockset, and viola, I've
built a (very crude and temp) door. The garage is at least secure.

The old and offending door is on work-horses in the basement. I am
evaluating the potential for rebuilding the door. Methinks it
doesn't look so good:

http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/...07-2012001.jpg
http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/...07-2012002.jpg
http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/...07-2012003.jpg

Your candid opinion is solicited (dbp, are you out there?). Near as I can tell, it
isn't worth re-building.


"Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."

On Jul 17, 11:21*pm, Puddin' Man wrote:
I made another pass thru the Restore today, and came up empty.

Also made concerted effort to split off the hinge stile from the rest and
partially failed. It more-or-less separated itself at the bottom, and the
intermediate rails separated, but the stile wouldn't come free of the top rail.
The lock stile did separate on the other side of the top rail. The pattern of
the joint is very intricate, and it doesn't wanna break. What did they use to
bind such stuff back in 1955? Glue? Epoxy?? What (if any) chemical can I use to
break the joint???

Y'all may or may-not be interested in the simple fact that I've been
studiously trying to avoid the business of "trying to stuff a square
peg in a round hole" which many responses have suggested. It looked
really simple when I started ("just replace the flogging door, f'crissake!").
Now it looks a mess.

Do they even *make* exterior pre-hungs measuring 30 x (80-?) x 1 3/4"? Would it
*really* fit 32 x 80 opening?? How expensive???

* Thx,
* P


Just as one example, Therma Tru makes pre hung exterior doors that are
30 x 78 (2'6" x 6'6"). That size door should fit a 32 x 80 opening
with no modification.

http://www.thermatru.com/products/en.../ss/index.aspx

I'm sure many other manufacturers do too.

Prices will vary by manufacturer and style. I would find a contractor
supply house in your area, such as a Norandex Reynolds dealer. You can
usually get a better price than at a home center, but shop around.

If you want to stick with a 30 x 80 door, you'll probably need to
raise the header.

Exactly how tall is your RO? 80-? Is not a number.

On Jul 18, 2:24*am, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Jul 17, 11:21*pm, Puddin' Man wrote:





I made another pass thru the Restore today, and came up empty.

Also made concerted effort to split off the hinge stile from the rest and
partially failed. It more-or-less separated itself at the bottom, and the
intermediate rails separated, but the stile wouldn't come free of the top rail.
The lock stile did separate on the other side of the top rail. The pattern of
the joint is very intricate, and it doesn't wanna break. What did they use to
bind such stuff back in 1955? Glue? Epoxy?? What (if any) chemical can I use to
break the joint???

It would seem if the stile is seperated everywhere but
at the top, you could pry it apart enough to get a saw
blade in to cut the dowels off no? Then drill them out.





Y'all may or may-not be interested in the simple fact that I've been
studiously trying to avoid the business of "trying to stuff a square
peg in a round hole" which many responses have suggested. It looked
really simple when I started ("just replace the flogging door, f'crissake!").
Now it looks a mess.

Do they even *make* exterior pre-hungs measuring 30 x (80-?) x 1 3/4"? Would it
*really* fit 32 x 80 opening?? How expensive???

If the existing opening is 32x80 and square, why isn't
buying a new door only, not pre-hung, possible? I know
you've indicated you think thickness is a big issue,
but everyone here has told you it isn't. At least not
from anything we've heard so far.




* Thx,
* P

Just as one example, Therma Tru makes pre hung exterior doors that are
30 x 78 (2'6" x 6'6"). *That size door should fit a 32 x 80 opening
with no modification.

http://www.thermatru.com/products/en...y-doors/ss/ind...

I'm sure many other manufacturers do too.

Prices will vary by manufacturer and style. I would find a contractor
supply house in your area, such as a Norandex Reynolds dealer. You can
usually get a better price than at a home center, but shop around.

If you want to stick with a 30 x 80 door, you'll probably need to
raise the header.

Exactly how tall is your RO? 80-? Is not a number.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If the smaller size door is an issue and given that the
framing is completely exposed inside the
garage, ie there is no drywall or similar, making the job
somewhat easier, I would also not rule out a pre-hung
32x80 You just have to remove the existing RO 2x4's
cut off some exterior sheathing/siding, and reframe.

On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 04:57:42 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Jul 18, 2:24*am, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Jul 17, 11:21*pm, Puddin' Man wrote:





I made another pass thru the Restore today, and came up empty.

Also made concerted effort to split off the hinge stile from the rest and
partially failed. It more-or-less separated itself at the bottom, and the
intermediate rails separated, but the stile wouldn't come free of the top rail.
The lock stile did separate on the other side of the top rail. The pattern of
the joint is very intricate, and it doesn't wanna break. What did they use to
bind such stuff back in 1955? Glue? Epoxy?? What (if any) chemical can I use to
break the joint???

It would seem if the stile is seperated everywhere but
at the top, you could pry it apart enough to get a saw
blade in to cut the dowels off no? Then drill them out.

-Not- what I wanna do!



Y'all may or may-not be interested in the simple fact that I've been
studiously trying to avoid the business of "trying to stuff a square
peg in a round hole" which many responses have suggested. It looked
really simple when I started ("just replace the flogging door, f'crissake!").
Now it looks a mess.

Do they even *make* exterior pre-hungs measuring 30 x (80-?) x 1 3/4"? Would it
*really* fit 32 x 80 opening?? How expensive???

If the existing opening is 32x80 and square, why isn't
buying a new door only, not pre-hung, possible?

I looked (Lowes, HD, etc) and couldn't find one suitable.
Closest I came was a steel-skin from HD.

I know
you've indicated you think thickness is a big issue,
but everyone here has told you it isn't. At least not
from anything we've heard so far.

For crissake, it depends on hinge placement.

P

"Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."

On Jul 18, 3:42*pm, Puddin' Man wrote:
On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 04:57:42 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:





On Jul 18, 2:24*am, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Jul 17, 11:21*pm, Puddin' Man wrote:

I made another pass thru the Restore today, and came up empty.

Also made concerted effort to split off the hinge stile from the rest and
partially failed. It more-or-less separated itself at the bottom, and the
intermediate rails separated, but the stile wouldn't come free of the top rail.
The lock stile did separate on the other side of the top rail. The pattern of
the joint is very intricate, and it doesn't wanna break. What did they use to
bind such stuff back in 1955? Glue? Epoxy?? What (if any) chemical can I use to
break the joint???

It would seem if the stile is seperated everywhere but
at the top, you could pry it apart enough to get a saw
blade in to cut *the dowels off no? *Then drill them out.

-Not- what I wanna do!



Y'all may or may-not be interested in the simple fact that I've been
studiously trying to avoid the business of "trying to stuff a square
peg in a round hole" which many responses have suggested. It looked
really simple when I started ("just replace the flogging door, f'crissake!").
Now it looks a mess.

Do they even *make* exterior pre-hungs measuring 30 x (80-?) x 1 3/4"? Would it
*really* fit 32 x 80 opening?? How expensive???

If the existing opening is 32x80 and square, why isn't
buying a new door only, not pre-hung, possible?

I looked (Lowes, HD, etc) and couldn't find one suitable.
Closest I came was a steel-skin from HD.

I know
you've indicated you think thickness is a big issue,
but everyone here has told you it isn't. *At least not
from anything we've heard so far.

For crissake, it depends on hinge placement.



Last time I checked one side of the hinge goes on
the new door, at the edge. The other side of the hinge
goes on the door jamb, or in your case the door
rough opening because you have no jamb. Exactly like
they are on there now. I can
take any door in my house out and replace it with
a door that is 1/2" thicker. Everyone else here
has told you that it's not a problem either. You have
to move the stop molding, but I do not see why
hinges are an issue.

It would also be helpful if you could explain why
EXACTLY you think it won't work. First we just got
"I can't find a door that's suitable." Then upon repeated
questioning in an attempt to help you, we get
"All the new doors are thicker". Now it's on to
"For crissake, it depends on hinge placement."

Is it that hard to explain what exactly you think
the fitment issue is that prevents you from using
a door that is thicker?

Puddin' Man wrote:
I know
you've indicated you think thickness is a big issue,
but everyone here has told you it isn't. At least not
from anything we've heard so far.

For crissake, it depends on hinge placement.

H I N G E S A R E M O V E A B L E.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out...
http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On Tue, 17 Jul 2012 23:24:16 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03 wrote:

If you want to stick with a 30 x 80 door, you'll probably need to
raise the header.

Exactly how tall is your RO? 80-? Is not a number.

It's 80". The ? was meant to represent the difference between
the pre-hung height and it's door height. Is this diff.
standard? What is it? 2" like the door diff.?

P

"Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."