On Oct 26, 11:57 am, jJim McLaughlin
wrote:
h wrote:

Your best option is a credit card, either directly or through PayPal. eBay
expressly prohibits Western Union transactions. If you bought something
through eBay the seller CANNOT require WU. Report him to eBay and use PayPal
to complete the transaction. Didn't we already tell you this in a previous
thread?

Yep.

He's unwillng to listen to anything other than the voices in his head.

I filtered him after his post about not ever responding
to the manufacturer / distributor wo contacted him
because he "assumed" that the mfg. / distr. would somehow screw him.

He's a waste of electrons.


Geez, can't anyone get the facts right here?

It was never stated that the seller REQUIRED payment via Western
Union. It was only said that for IMMEDIATE SHIPMENT the seller wanted
payment via Western Union or Bank Draft. It was also stated he would
take any other form of payment where the money winds up cleared in his
bank account BEFORE he shipped. So, he'd clearly take a check and
wait for it to clear

So, again, please show me where any of that, including offering
Western Union as a payment option is a violation of Ebay policy by the
seller. I'm sure you can find something where Ebay recommends
using Paypal instead of Western Union. Gee, you think maybe that's
because they own Paypal? But please show me where they say a seller
can't accept Western Union as a payment option.

If you can't then be decent enough to retract your slam.

On Oct 26, 10:56 pm, "Marty B." wrote:
wrote in message

oups.com...

Are you trying to just completely obfuscate here? This latest
response sure looks like it. I'll ask it again. Are you saying
that any of the above is a violation of Ebay rules? Is asking for WU
or bank draft for immediate shipment a violation? Is holding
shipment unitl a check clears a violation

trader4, you completely miss point. I believe Poppin has proven beyond a
reasonable doubt, the seller is attempting to avoid fees. You are bringing
information, which is irrelevant into the discussion. Try to stay on topic
here, you keep going down different paths to avoid the topic on hand.

No, I didn't miss anything. And if it's going down a path you don't
like, I'm not the one that started it. Let's recap where this
started:

Big posted:

"If seller won't accept CC and requires Western Union in violation of
ebays rules just walk away."


To which I pointed out that the seller didn't require Western Union,
only offered it as one on several choices on how to pay, including
waiting for a check to clear. And that I don't believe it's a
violation of Ebay rules to offer Western Union as a payment option.
So, I don't see how any of that violates any Ebay policy.

If you disagree, please be specific in where I'm wrong.







You only copied it and made it clear what you were referring to after
you started using vulgarities. In fact, just with the reply just
above where you again posted what looks like another claim that asking
for WU or bank draft, etc is some violation of Ebay rules.

Here's another fine example of you not keeping on topic. It has nothing to
do with bank drafts. Why are you even writing about this? I don't want to
flame you, but you really have a hard time concentrating on the topic,
which is on hand.


And I don;t want to flame you either. But what exactly is your
point? Big and Poppin keep saying the seller is violating Ebay
policy and should be reported. Big made the claim specific to
Western Union, so it appears his issue is with that. I'm not clear
what Poppins issue is, because he would rather curse than explain
himself. And the way he responded appeared that he too had a problem
with the payment methods offered. That's why I brought up bank
drafts, because that was another payment option, was it not?




There is no mention from the OP that the accessories which were added
to the previous sale, were ever listed on Ebay by the seller. As I
see it, offering the buyer additional items could have been done
outside Ebay and not violated any rule. If it is a violation, I'd
like to see where it says that on Ebay policies. Or, as i pointed out
earlier, if it was a buy it now, the seller could also have added the
additional accessories to the listing, changed the price and concluded
the sale that way. The bottom line, you don't know what went on
here and there very likely was no violation of any Ebay policy.

You really need to read the original post. Your mind seems cluttered with
your own thoughts, instead of what the original poster wrote.

And you should spell out what the hell you're saying, instead of going
back in circles. What specific policy is the seller violating? You
agree with Big that taking Western Union is a violation? If not,
what?




You continue to impress all here with your brilliance and
vulgarity. And yes, I'm still wondering how many Ebay transactions
you've done, because you can't follow a thread and make comments clear
in context and jump to wild conclusions that a seller is violating
Ebay policy, when you don't even know the details of exactly what went
on.

Obviously, Poppin has more experience in this, than you do. The details
were spelled out in the original post, maybe you should read it.

I have read the original post several times. And again, you're going
back in circles. If there is a specific violation, you should be
able to spell it out for us. A link to Ebay would be even better.

On Oct 26, 10:54 pm, "Gini" wrote:
wrote



On Oct 26, 10:17 pm, "Gini" wrote:
"Poppin Fresh" wrote

"Gini" wrote

Good call. Fee avoidance, alright. Also, his meager 10 feedback are
all
as a buyer.
Did you report this to eBay?

No, I didn't. The OP should report it, along with full headers. This
seller would be NARU'd in a heartbeat.

==
I dunno. Ebay is pretty slow to act on this kind of thing. They say they
like to see "a pattern"
before acting. I wonder how many buyers get screwed while eBay is waiting
for the
pattern to show up.

And once again, I ask, where exactly is the fee avoidance in this?
Please be specific.

===
This seller is using this auction as a "sell-through" for the balance of the
materials
normally needed to finish the project, while only paying eBay fees for the
"limited amount"
of material offered via the auction (which is precisely what he told the OP
during previous
communications). This is apparent in the following statements
from the description:

"Additional colors and styles are available from us"
"Further contact is needed for accessories"
"This offer is for a limited amount of this particular product."- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


OK, thanks for pointing out what the real beef is. If you go back to
where the big disagreement started, it was with the post Big made,
saying using Western Union as a payment option is a violation of Ebay
policy. AFAIK, it's not, stated so, and then somehow I got called
names.

I have to take exception to your statement that the seller ever told
the buyer that he is doing anything to deliberately avoid Ebay fees.
All the OP said was on a previous transaction, he wanted some
accessories and the seller added them on to the final price. We don't
know what the accessories were or how they relate to the original
product. And how do you know how this was done? If it was a buy it
now, the seller could have added the accessories to the listing and
raised the purchase price. Even if it were not done through Ebay, what
is the limit to what other items you could offer someone that were
never listed? Suppose he listed shingles for sale and in the course
of discussion with the buyer, learned the buyer also wants felt and
roofing nails? In your understanding of Ebay rules is he then
required to list the nails and felt and sell them through Ebay?

Now, I do agree that in the case of the new listing, if the buyer
needs 15 boxes of the shingles shown and he contacts the seller and
the answer is to supply it without going through Ebay, then that is
indeed a violation. As for saying additional colors, styles, etc are
available, contact us, I've seen that in plenty of Ebay ads. I've
also seen sellers then put up a listing specific to what that
particular buyer wants. What do you think this seller should do to
make the listing right?

wrote in message
ups.com...
On Oct 26, 10:54 pm, "Gini" wrote:
wrote



On Oct 26, 10:17 pm, "Gini" wrote:
"Poppin Fresh" wrote

"Gini" wrote

Good call. Fee avoidance, alright. Also, his meager 10 feedback are
all
as a buyer.
Did you report this to eBay?

No, I didn't. The OP should report it, along with full headers. This
seller would be NARU'd in a heartbeat.

==
I dunno. Ebay is pretty slow to act on this kind of thing. They say
they
like to see "a pattern"
before acting. I wonder how many buyers get screwed while eBay is
waiting
for the
pattern to show up.

And once again, I ask, where exactly is the fee avoidance in this?
Please be specific.

===
This seller is using this auction as a "sell-through" for the balance of
the
materials
normally needed to finish the project, while only paying eBay fees for
the
"limited amount"
of material offered via the auction (which is precisely what he told the
OP
during previous
communications). This is apparent in the following statements
from the description:

"Additional colors and styles are available from us"
"Further contact is needed for accessories"
"This offer is for a limited amount of this particular product."- Hide
quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


OK, thanks for pointing out what the real beef is.
==
You're welcome.
(Further comments inline below)
==
If you go back to
where the big disagreement started, it was with the post Big made,
saying using Western Union as a payment option is a violation of Ebay
policy. AFAIK, it's not, stated so, and then somehow I got called
names.
==
I have no dog in that fight.
==

I have to take exception to your statement that the seller ever told
the buyer that he is doing anything to deliberately avoid Ebay fees.
==
Huh? I said that?
==
All the OP said was on a previous transaction, he wanted some
accessories and the seller added them on to the final price. We don't
know what the accessories were or how they relate to the original
product. And how do you know how this was done?
==
It is not my concern "what the accessories were."
==
If it was a buy it
now, the seller could have added the accessories to the listing and
raised the purchase price. Even if it were not done through Ebay, what
is the limit to what other items you could offer someone that were
never listed? Suppose he listed shingles for sale and in the course
of discussion with the buyer, learned the buyer also wants felt and
roofing nails? In your understanding of Ebay rules is he then
required to list the nails and felt and sell them through Ebay?
==
I did not provide you with "my understanding." I provided you with the eBay
rule
on fee avoidance and the auction specifics that violated that rule. This
isn't a gray area that you
appear to be trying to make it out to be.
==

Now, I do agree that in the case of the new listing, if the buyer
needs 15 boxes of the shingles shown and he contacts the seller and
the answer is to supply it without going through Ebay, then that is
indeed a violation. As for saying additional colors, styles, etc are
available, contact us, I've seen that in plenty of Ebay ads. I've
also seen sellers then put up a listing specific to what that
particular buyer wants.
==
That is not fee avoidance. That is a "private auction."
==
What do you think this seller should do to
make the listing right?
==
Not my concern. Is this your listing? For further information,
see eBay "Help" pages.
==
==

On Oct 26, 8:25 pm, "Poppin Fresh" wrote:
wrote

Yes. that's right. And who's the merchant in this case? Paypal,
because they are the merchant registered with the credit card
companies and are in the business of accepting the money via credit
card and then forwarding the money on to someone, just as instructed
by the card holder. And that is where it ends. The transaction
where MC/VISA paid Paypal was legitimate and authorized. Paypal then
sent the money where it was supposed to go. End of story. The
credit card company is not going to reverse the charge or get involved
in the dispute. You think if you use a credit card through Paypal
to send $3000 to some Joe Schmoe unknown party, that Citibank is going
to make good because the guy took your money and never sent anything?
If they did that, the doors to fraud would be wide open, because just
about anyone can open up a Paypal account.

You don't have a clue about Paypal. Paypal will cover "x" amount, _IF_ the
purchase was made through a legitimate purchase through eBay. eBay owns
Paypal.

You;re the one who's clueless and giving out bad advice. I know
perfectly well that Ebay owns Paypal, so what? Paypal covers buyers
for either $200 or a max of $2000 on some, but not all items bought on
Ebay. To get the $2000 protection:

https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/we...plaint-outside

seller's eBay feedback rating is at least 50;
At least 98% of the seller's eBay feedback is positive;
The seller has a Verified Premier or Verified Business Account in good
standing;
The listing was on an eligible eBay site (eBay.com and certain other
eBay sites self identified as such)
PayPal is listed as an acceptable payment method; and
The seller is a PayPal User from one of the following countries:


Doh! In the case of frugal farmer, the seller only has a feedback
rating of 10, so he can stop at the first requirement. So, Frugal
is right, he's only covered to a whopping $200. And then go read all
the hoops and jumps and the process you have to go to in order to try
to collect. And how it only covers tangible items, not things like
tickets or licenses for digital subscription content, etc. It ain;t
like calling Citibank about your VISA dispute with a merchant.

Funny how the guy asking for help knows more than you.

And also if you want to look through the whole thread, the only one
that mentioned the possibility of using an escrow service, whcih gives
him total protection, was me. Or he could just listen to you and hand
over the money via Paypal, thinking he's covered for his $3500.








To open a Paypal account, you need a credit card and/or bank account. You
can't have credit through Paypal. It appears by your answer, you think
Paypal is it's own bank/credit union or something.

It appears by your answer that you can't read. My point clearly was
that those telling Frugal to pay with a credit card through Paypal and
they are protected by the credit card company are wrong. You do
understand that Paypal accepts credit cards, don't you and then sends
that money to who ever you tell them to? Well, I'll make it clear
for you one more time. Let's say you have a VISA with Citibank.
You send $3500 to Mr X via Paypal and use the credit card. The stuff
never shows up. Citibank will tell you the charge was legitimately
submitted by Paypal and it was paid. They will not get involved with
your nasty little dispute with Mr X, because HE's NOT THEIR MERCHANT,
HE DIDN"T TAKE THE CREDIT CARD. End of story.

Got it now?

wrote
...........................
Let's say you have a VISA with Citibank.
You send $3500 to Mr X via Paypal and use the credit card. The stuff
never shows up. Citibank will tell you the charge was legitimately
submitted by Paypal and it was paid. They will not get involved with
your nasty little dispute with Mr X, because HE's NOT THEIR MERCHANT,
HE DIDN"T TAKE THE CREDIT CARD. End of story.
==
That is not correct.

On Oct 27, 12:46 am, "Gini" wrote:
wrote in message

ups.com...



On Oct 26, 10:54 pm, "Gini" wrote:
wrote

On Oct 26, 10:17 pm, "Gini" wrote:
"Poppin Fresh" wrote

"Gini" wrote

Good call. Fee avoidance, alright. Also, his meager 10 feedback are
all
as a buyer.
Did you report this to eBay?

No, I didn't. The OP should report it, along with full headers. This
seller would be NARU'd in a heartbeat.

==
I dunno. Ebay is pretty slow to act on this kind of thing. They say
they
like to see "a pattern"
before acting. I wonder how many buyers get screwed while eBay is
waiting
for the
pattern to show up.

And once again, I ask, where exactly is the fee avoidance in this?
Please be specific.

===
This seller is using this auction as a "sell-through" for the balance of
the
materials
normally needed to finish the project, while only paying eBay fees for
the
"limited amount"
of material offered via the auction (which is precisely what he told the
OP
during previous
communications). This is apparent in the following statements
from the description:

"Additional colors and styles are available from us"
"Further contact is needed for accessories"
"This offer is for a limited amount of this particular product."- Hide
quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

OK, thanks for pointing out what the real beef is.

==
You're welcome.
(Further comments inline below)
==
If you go back to where the big disagreement started, it was with the post Big made,
saying using Western Union as a payment option is a violation of Ebay
policy. AFAIK, it's not, stated so, and then somehow I got called
names.

==
I have no dog in that fight.
==

I have to take exception to your statement that the seller ever told
the buyer that he is doing anything to deliberately avoid Ebay fees.

==
Huh? I said that?

"
This seller is using this auction as a "sell-through" for the balance
of the
materials
normally needed to finish the project, while only paying eBay fees for
the
"limited amount"
of material offered via the auction (which is precisely what he told
the OP
during previous
communications)."






== All the OP said was on a previous transaction, he wanted some
accessories and the seller added them on to the final price. We don't
know what the accessories were or how they relate to the original
product. And how do you know how this was done?

==
It is not my concern "what the accessories were."
==
If it was a buy it now, the seller could have added the accessories to the listing and
raised the purchase price. Even if it were not done through Ebay, what
is the limit to what other items you could offer someone that were
never listed? Suppose he listed shingles for sale and in the course
of discussion with the buyer, learned the buyer also wants felt and
roofing nails? In your understanding of Ebay rules is he then
required to list the nails and felt and sell them through Ebay?

==
I did not provide you with "my understanding." I provided you with the eBay
rule
on fee avoidance

Well, I must have missed that. Which post was it where you provided
the Ebay rule? I'd like to see where it's defined that if I sell say
a camera and then find out through emails that the guy also wants a
tripod, which I happen to have, that I have to sell it to him through
Ebay. Link please?

And if you understand the Ebay rule so well, then why can't you answer
the question about what happens if I list shingles for sale and then
find out the guy who's buying the shingles also needs felt and
nails? Must I put them through Ebay?



and the auction specifics that violated that rule. This
isn't a gray area that you
appear to be trying to make it out to be.


Funny then that you didn't answer the question I posed about the
nails.






==

Now, I do agree that in the case of the new listing, if the buyer
needs 15 boxes of the shingles shown and he contacts the seller and
the answer is to supply it without going through Ebay, then that is
indeed a violation. As for saying additional colors, styles, etc are
available, contact us, I've seen that in plenty of Ebay ads. I've
also seen sellers then put up a listing specific to what that
particular buyer wants.

==
That is not fee avoidance. That is a "private auction."


I never said it was fee avoidance. But those listings also have the
statements that they have other products, other colors available,
don't they? And they don't turn into fee avoidance. My point was
that some auctions are ultimately dealt with that way. How do you
know if Frugal goes to the seller and says I want 15 boxes of those
shingles the seller won't put up a listing for 15 boxes?



==
What do you think this seller should do to make the listing right?

==
Not my concern. Is this your listing?

I asked in the hopes of seeing how you would go about selling those
shingles according to the rules. It seems everyone wants this guy
reported, booted, God knows what, but they can't answer what should be
simple questions themselves.

wrote
"Gini" wrote:
wrote in message
...................................

I have to take exception to your statement that the seller ever told
the buyer that he is doing anything to deliberately avoid Ebay fees.

==
Huh? I said that?

"
This seller is using this auction as a "sell-through" for the balance
of the
materials
normally needed to finish the project, while only paying eBay fees for
the
"limited amount"
of material offered via the auction (which is precisely what he told
the OP
during previous
communications)."
==
That does not address the statement you made above.
I never said
"the seller ever told
the buyer that he is doing anything to deliberately avoid Ebay fees."
==
...............................................
==
I did not provide you with "my understanding." I provided you with the
eBay
rule
on fee avoidance

Well, I must have missed that.
==
Indeed you did.
==
Which post was it where you provided
the Ebay rule? I'd like to see where it's defined that if I sell say
a camera and then find out through emails that the guy also wants a
tripod, which I happen to have, that I have to sell it to him through
Ebay. Link please?
==
My advice that you research eBay "Help" if you are still confused stands.
==

And if you understand the Ebay rule so well, then why can't you answer
the question about what happens if I list shingles for sale and then
find out the guy who's buying the shingles also needs felt and
nails? Must I put them through Ebay?
==
Yes.
==
................................................
and the auction specifics that violated that rule. This
isn't a gray area that you
appear to be trying to make it out to be.


Funny then that you didn't answer the question I posed about the
nails.
==
No need. You can research via eBay "Help" files. That is why they exist.
==

Now, I do agree that in the case of the new listing, if the buyer
needs 15 boxes of the shingles shown and he contacts the seller and
the answer is to supply it without going through Ebay, then that is
indeed a violation. As for saying additional colors, styles, etc are
available, contact us, I've seen that in plenty of Ebay ads. I've
also seen sellers then put up a listing specific to what that
particular buyer wants.
.................................
==
All your questions *of merit* have been answered here. See eBay "Help" to
resolve any
further confusion you may have pertaining to eBay rules. Hey. I know--ask on
alt.marketing.online.ebay. They are
real friendly folks over there who love helping newbies.
==
==

On Oct 27, 1:09 am, "Gini" wrote:
wrote
..........................
Let's say you have a VISA with Citibank. You send $3500 to Mr X via Paypal and use the credit card. The stuff
never shows up. Citibank will tell you the charge was legitimately
submitted by Paypal and it was paid. They will not get involved with
your nasty little dispute with Mr X, because HE's NOT THEIR MERCHANT,
HE DIDN"T TAKE THE CREDIT CARD. End of story.

==
That is not correct.


Yeah, and in typical fashion, 4 words is all you could write. No
explanation to back it up required. Well Frugal checked with his
bank and that was the answer they gave him and reported in this
thread. And I've been down that exact route with Citibank over a
Paypal transaction. I knew that was going to be the answer before I
even called them.

Why on earth would you expect the credit card company to be
responsible? The transaction they engaged in with their merchant
(Paypal) was perfectly legitimate. They have nothing to do with the
fact that you told Paypal to send the money to someone the credit card
company has no contract with and could be any jerk with a Paypal
account in some 3rd world country.

If people listen to the clueless like you, they could be hurt badly.

On Oct 27, 1:40 am, "Gini" wrote:
wrote"Gini" wrote:
wrote in message

..................................





I have to take exception to your statement that the seller ever told
the buyer that he is doing anything to deliberately avoid Ebay fees.

==
Huh? I said that?

"
This seller is using this auction as a "sell-through" for the balance
of the
materials
normally needed to finish the project, while only paying eBay fees for
the
"limited amount"
of material offered via the auction (which is precisely what he told
the OP
during previous
communications)."

==
That does not address the statement you made above.
I never said
"the seller ever told
the buyer that he is doing anything to deliberately avoid Ebay fees."
==
.......


The statement above that I cited sure seems to say it. It ends with
"which is precisely what he told the OP during previous
communications." And also, let me point out that the OP never said
that in the previous transaction the seller didn't include materials
normally needed to finish the project. As I asked you before, and
you refuse to answer, what exactly determines the items I must kit
together according to you or better yet Ebay? I asked if I sell
shingles, and in the course of emails, it turns out the guy asks me if
I sell nails, must I then list them on Ebay? A simple YES or NO?

........................................
== I did not provide you with "my understanding." I provided you with the
eBay
rule
on fee avoidance

Well, I must have missed that.

==
Indeed you did.


Yes, because you never did.




==
Which post was it where you provided the Ebay rule? I'd like to see where it's defined that if I sell say
a camera and then find out through emails that the guy also wants a
tripod, which I happen to have, that I have to sell it to him through
Ebay. Link please?


No link, just more BS.




==
My advice that you research eBay "Help" if you are still confused stands.
==

And if you understand the Ebay rule so well, then why can't you answer
the question about what happens if I list shingles for sale and then
find out the guy who's buying the shingles also needs felt and
nails? Must I put them through Ebay?

==
Yes.
==
............................................... and the auction specifics that violated that rule. This
isn't a gray area that you
appear to be trying to make it out to be.

Funny then that you didn't answer the question I posed about the
nails.

==
No need. You can research via eBay "Help" files. That is why they exist.


Strange that that for someone who claims to know so much, you can't
answer that simple question about whether I have to list the nails
with Ebay.




==

Now, I do agree that in the case of the new listing, if the buyer
needs 15 boxes of the shingles shown and he contacts the seller and
the answer is to supply it without going through Ebay, then that is
indeed a violation. As for saying additional colors, styles, etc are
available, contact us, I've seen that in plenty of Ebay ads. I've
also seen sellers then put up a listing specific to what that
particular buyer wants.

................................
==
All your questions *of merit* have been answered here. See eBay "Help" to
resolve any
further confusion you may have pertaining to eBay rules. Hey. I know--ask on
alt.marketing.online.ebay. They are
real friendly folks over there who love helping newbies.
==

Maybe you should go there and get the answer to the nail question and
get back to us.

On Sat, 27 Oct 2007 05:40:57 GMT, "Gini" wrote:


wrote
"Gini" wrote:
wrote in message
..................................

==
All your questions *of merit* have been answered here. See eBay "Help" to
resolve any
further confusion you may have pertaining to eBay rules. Hey. I know--ask on
alt.marketing.online.ebay. They are
real friendly folks over there who love helping newbies.
==
I don't want to step on anybody's toes, so just relax and don't bite
my head off, shoot my dog or electrocute my cat over nothing. This
information and clarification I provide is for future reference to
those who may need it. Not to inflame another war.

My basic goal was to get steel shingles and not get duped by an
unscrupulous seller. I found what I was looking for on eBay. Many
recommended I use credit card as I will be protected. Many of you
also here recommended I don't deal with that eBay seller and go
elsewhere as he doesn't appear to be legit and the use of credit cards
wont protect me. Sound advice so why am I still here? For exactly
the same reason as everybody else - so I can create and negotiate my
own price instead of being told what the price is.

Anyway, I found out from my visa cust. service dept. this morning that
my basic, no-fee visa, as a rule of thumb, does NOT protect me for
THIS kind of purchase and I am on my own since terms of the purchase
are clearly spelled out - protected up to $200 and on the hook for the
rest. The charge wont (will NOT) be reversed unless I can prove fraud
occurred.

That said, I was also told that if I provide documentation (sales
contract) prior to the transaction taking place, my visa will "clear
the path" for this purchase. I gather this purchase becomes C.O.D. if
the bank knows ahead of time who, what, when, how.. In that case YES,
I am protected and they WILL reverse the entire charge regardless
what paypal offers ($200).

In fact, my visa wants to know about all shady and out of the ordinary
transactions prior to the purchase taking place so banks have time to
freeze funds until the transaction completes successfully and
everybody makes good on the sales contract. In their own words, it is
a fraction of the effort and cost to prevent damage as opposed to
unwinding damage after the fact.

That was the first half of my puzzle. The second half of the puzzle
was how to make the seller compromise so it is a win-win situation
rather than him holding all the cards once he gets all my money.

As everybody knows by now, it is not possible to complete the entire
purchase on eBay as only one part (shingles) of the entire assembly
(ridges, nails, clips, gables, valleys, felt, shingles,...) are being
offered by the seller. There is a considerable risk in buying all
these parts separately due to availability or color mismatch as all is
manufactured in small lots. The seller (and buyer) knows that.
Therefore, the entire package of parts needs to be negotiated
off-line. And Gini found the key to the whole issue he

the question about what happens if I list shingles for sale and then
find out the guy who's buying the shingles also needs felt and
nails? Must I put them through Ebay?
==
Yes.
==

Had I known then that instead of arguing with the seller about
(not)paying via WU off-line I could have forced him back to the eBay
table and pay with visa once I notified my bank this transaction is
going down, you all could have been focusing on other more important
things in alt.house.repair, like JoeSpareBedroom's meds.

Furthermore, I now realize this was the wrong place to ask an eBay
question. I had no idea this alt.marketing.online.ebay was in
existence.

Also, I can see alt.house.repair is not the right place to ask my next
question - what eBay rule I use to force the off-line deal through
eBay auction as for a fact I know somebody will **** on my head
because I am taking them away from JoeSpareBedroom's "dancing with the
losers" saga - an appropriate topic for a Bob Villa tv show.

So that's where I am going next but I tell you this, it was no fun
getting dumped on just for asking an innocent newbie question.

Nice work. the OP gets it now and is signing off. See you in
alt.ebay.

On Sat, 27 Oct 2007 10:07:55 -0400, h wrote Re For asshole
trader4:

Not permitted on eBay.com: Sellers may not solicit buyers to mail cash.
Sellers may not ask buyers to send cash through instant cash transfer
services (non-bank, point-to-point cash transfers) such as Western Union or
Moneygram.

So...Asking for payment via Western Union IS A VIOLATION of eBay policy. Are
you just stupid or can you not read?

Looks like it won't be long before eBay requires all transactions to
be settled via PayPal.

On Oct 27, 10:53 am, Frugal Farmer
wrote:
On Sat, 27 Oct 2007 05:40:57 GMT, "Gini" wrote:

wrote
"Gini" wrote:
wrote in message
..................................

==
All your questions *of merit* have been answered here. See eBay "Help" to
resolve any
further confusion you may have pertaining to eBay rules. Hey. I know--ask on
alt.marketing.online.ebay. They are
real friendly folks over there who love helping newbies.
==

I don't want to step on anybody's toes, so just relax and don't bite
my head off, shoot my dog or electrocute my cat over nothing. This
information and clarification I provide is for future reference to
those who may need it. Not to inflame another war.

My basic goal was to get steel shingles and not get duped by an
unscrupulous seller. I found what I was looking for on eBay. Many
recommended I use credit card as I will be protected. Many of you
also here recommended I don't deal with that eBay seller and go
elsewhere as he doesn't appear to be legit and the use of credit cards
wont protect me. Sound advice so why am I still here? For exactly
the same reason as everybody else - so I can create and negotiate my
own price instead of being told what the price is.

Anyway, I found out from my visa cust. service dept. this morning that
my basic, no-fee visa, as a rule of thumb, does NOT protect me for
THIS kind of purchase and I am on my own since terms of the purchase
are clearly spelled out - protected up to $200 and on the hook for the
rest. The charge wont (will NOT) be reversed unless I can prove fraud
occurred.

That said, I was also told that if I provide documentation (sales
contract) prior to the transaction taking place, my visa will "clear
the path" for this purchase. I gather this purchase becomes C.O.D. if
the bank knows ahead of time who, what, when, how.. In that case YES,
I am protected and they WILL reverse the entire charge regardless
what paypal offers ($200).

In fact, my visa wants to know about all shady and out of the ordinary
transactions prior to the purchase taking place so banks have time to
freeze funds until the transaction completes successfully and
everybody makes good on the sales contract. In their own words, it is
a fraction of the effort and cost to prevent damage as opposed to
unwinding damage after the fact.


So you got two very different answers to your question in two days.
You reported yesterday that the answer was that VISA would not cover
the transaction through Paypal because the charge was legitimately
placed by Paypal, (the merchant who they have a contract with), and
then sent on to some other party who you actually have the problem
with. Today, they tell you they will, but only if you either

1 - Prove fraud occurred. But the question is, fraud by whom? They
could later very easily say that means that the fraud has to be by
their merchant, Paypal. And Paypal wasn;t the fraud.

2 - Do some special documented transaction through VISA.

You can see the problem here. You got two different answers to the
same question in 24 hours. And neither of them says what many people
here are claiming, which is that if you just use a credit card through
Paypal on their website, like everyone would, you don't have the
credit card protection that you would if you used it directly with a
merchant who takes VISA.

And if this winds up screwed, what happens when the next person at
VISA tells you something different? This isn't a simple issue and I
would not trust what anyone told me verbally as you have no proof
later. I'd want to see VISA's policy in writing that explicitly
deals with Paypal transactions.

The only thing I can tell you is I had this exact problem with a
Paypal transaction through Citibank VISA. I bought a set of alloy
wheels on Ebay that was clearly and seriously misrepresented as being
like new. I used the VISA on Paypal. The picture of the item was of
different wheels, probably brand new ones, and definitely not the ones
being sold which were old, dirty, serious curb rash, dings, etc.
Instead of like new, they were worse than the ones I had on the
car. The answer I got from Citibank VISA was clear. They
considered Paypal the legitimate charger, the transaction was vailid
and they would not get involved.

Ultimately, after a long dispute process with Paypal and Ebay, I did
get most of my money back. I still did not get back shipping, had to
pay for return shipping and all told, I probably lost $40 on a $175
transaction.

The other thing you will learn if you go through this process is
unlike VISA, which has someone to answer the phone, with Paypal you're
talking to a server. I never spoke with anyone during the entire
dispute process You shuffled off to an electronic robot type system
that tries to resolve everything with minimal human intervention.

The safest solution to your problem is an escrow service. Check it
out on Ebay. I think escrow.com is their recommended escrow
service. The only problems are most sellers won't go through the
hassle and of course someone has to pay the fee.





follow a special documentation procedure for the





That was the first half of my puzzle. The second half of the puzzle
was how to make the seller compromise so it is a win-win situation
rather than him holding all the cards once he gets all my money.

As everybody knows by now, it is not possible to complete the entire
purchase on eBay as only one part (shingles) of the entire assembly
(ridges, nails, clips, gables, valleys, felt, shingles,...) are being
offered by the seller. There is a considerable risk in buying all
these parts separately due to availability or color mismatch as all is
manufactured in small lots. The seller (and buyer) knows that.
Therefore, the entire package of parts needs to be negotiated
off-line. And Gini found the key to the whole issue he

the question about what happens if I list shingles for sale and then
find out the guy who's buying the shingles also needs felt and
nails? Must I put them through Ebay?

==
Yes.
==



I'd still like to see on Ebay where it specifies that. Sears, for
example, sells items like air compressors on Ebay. If I want a hose
with it, is it a violation of Ebay policy for them to sell it to me
via their online or walk-in store?

I can understand if you were deliberatly splitting up a major part of
the sale, but I can't believe Ebay demands that if a guy asks me for
nails, which were never listed, in addition to the shingles, that I
have to then list that on Ebay. Zillions of companies are selling all
kind of stuff like this and have online stores. How the hell is
anybody supposed to keep track of which channel someone is buying
accesories?






Had I known then that instead of arguing with the seller about
(not)paying via WU off-line I could have forced him back to the eBay
table and pay with visa once I notified my bank this transaction is
going down, you all could have been focusing on other more important
things in alt.house.repair, like JoeSpareBedroom's meds.

Furthermore, I now realize this was the wrong place to ask an eBay
question. I had no idea this alt.marketing.online.ebay was in
existence.

Also, I can see alt.house.repair is not the right place to ask my next
question - what eBay rule I use to force the off-line deal through
eBay auction as for a fact I know somebody will **** on my head
because I am taking them away from JoeSpareBedroom's "dancing with the
losers" saga - an appropriate topic for a Bob Villa tv show.


You just contact the seller, tell him exactly what you want, and ask
him to put it up on Ebay as a fixed price listing which you can then
buy. If he won't, then I'd say that's the end of it. Do you want
to do business with someone that you have to force to even start doing
an ethical transaction? The fact that he only has 10 feedbacks and I
think most of them were as buyer would be my main concern. I'd never
do business for a major purchase with someone with so little
feedback. I might buy a $10 widget, but not $3500 worth of material,
unless you do the escrow or can pick it up and pay then. And any
legitimate business seller should understand that.





So that's where I am going next but I tell you this, it was no fun
getting dumped on just for asking an innocent newbie question.

Nice work. the OP gets it now and is signing off. See you in
alt.ebay.

On Oct 27, 11:12 am, Caesar Romano wrote:
On Sat, 27 Oct 2007 10:07:55 -0400, h wrote Re For asshole
trader4:

Not permitted on eBay.com: Sellers may not solicit buyers to mail cash.
Sellers may not ask buyers to send cash through instant cash transfer
services (non-bank, point-to-point cash transfers) such as Western Union or
Moneygram.

So...Asking for payment via Western Union IS A VIOLATION of eBay policy. Are
you just stupid or can you not read?

Looks like it won't be long before eBay requires all transactions to
be settled via PayPal.


Yes, I now realize Ebay has banned using Western Union. My
appologies to Big backpacker for accusing him of being wrong when he
first said it was a violation of Ebay policy. A simple link and
being clear in communicating exactly what part of the transaction
people had issues with instead of using vulgarity would have gone a
long way to avoiding turning this into a hostile debate.

And I think you're right, Ebay wants to do everything they can to put
more transactions through their own Paypal instead.

wrote in message
ups.com...
On Oct 27, 1:40 am, "Gini" wrote:
wrote"Gini" wrote:
wrote in message

..................................





I have to take exception to your statement that the seller ever told
the buyer that he is doing anything to deliberately avoid Ebay fees.

==
Huh? I said that?

"
This seller is using this auction as a "sell-through" for the balance
of the
materials
normally needed to finish the project, while only paying eBay fees for
the
"limited amount"
of material offered via the auction (which is precisely what he told
the OP
during previous
communications)."

==
That does not address the statement you made above.
I never said
"the seller ever told
the buyer that he is doing anything to deliberately avoid Ebay fees."
==
.......


The statement above that I cited sure seems to say it.
==
Your lack of comprehension is not my problem
==
It ends with
"which is precisely what he told the OP during previous
communications." And also, let me point out that the OP never said
that in the previous transaction the seller didn't include materials
normally needed to finish the project. As I asked you before, and
you refuse to answer, what exactly determines the items I must kit
together according to you or better yet Ebay?
===
I did not "refuse to answer." I told you to go to eBay Help files if you are
still confused.
You failed to do that. Your problem.
===
I asked if I sell
shingles, and in the course of emails, it turns out the guy asks me if
I sell nails, must I then list them on Ebay? A simple YES or NO?
==
I answered YES. You must be reading every other line.

On Sat, 27 Oct 2007 09:01:53 -0700, wrote:

So you got two very different answers to your question in two days.
You reported yesterday that the answer was that VISA would not cover
the transaction through Paypal because the charge was legitimately
placed by Paypal, (the merchant who they have a contract with), and
then sent on to some other party who you actually have the problem
- yes, that' right. And they said the same today. And they're
getting mighty sick of me calling in asking the same question. I give
them my card# and they pull up a history of my calls and then repeat
what was said the last time.
My basic, no-fee visa doesnt have the protection of perhaps
gold/platinum or whatever cards. Especially in a case when paypal
clearly said - insured up to $200 - buyer beware.
And I didnt purchase their (visa) "purchase protection insurance".
Therefore, if I "just pay" for something, dispute it a few weeks
later, I will not get the same attention as somebody else with
additional perks on his card.

with. Today, they tell you they will, but only if you either

1 - Prove fraud occurred. But the question is, fraud by whom? They
could later very easily say that means that the fraud has to be by
their merchant, Paypal. And Paypal wasn;t the fraud.
fraud as in not shipping or not intending to ship or shipping empty
box, etc. No protection for damaged, missing or some other debate
able reason. Their main point is that it is a lot of hassle for my
bank to hold somebody responsible when the money is already gone. The
bank wont eat it and paypal wont eat it since the seller already spent
it.

2 - Do some special documented transaction through VISA.
yes, visa specifically wants to review the sales contract and
description of goods beforehand to process a potential claim. It
becomes a secure sale, in effect C.O.D. Eventhough, the seller
(probably) gets a confirmation he is getting money, he cannot use the
money until he delivers. Once I sign for goods, the funds are
released.
again, dont shoot me just because this is how my bank/visa does it. It
might be different for everybody else.

You can see the problem here. You got two different answers to the
same question in 24 hours. And neither of them says what many people
- not really. just two different options how to conduct an online
purchase.

here are claiming, which is that if you just use a credit card through
Paypal on their website, like everyone would, you don't have the
credit card protection that you would if you used it directly with a
merchant who takes VISA.
ebay/paypal are probably exceptions to the general rule due to their
size and convoluted way of processing payments. they have the weight
behind them to negotiate their own terms and do things their way.

And if this winds up screwed, what happens when the next person at
VISA tells you something different? This isn't a simple issue and I
my visa logs history and contents of phone calls

would not trust what anyone told me verbally as you have no proof
later. I'd want to see VISA's policy in writing that explicitly
deals with Paypal transactions.
I asked too and visa didnt provide anything. Just told me to deal
directly with cust. service (visa) before engaging in shady
transactions that dont look straight forward.

The only thing I can tell you is I had this exact problem with a
Paypal transaction through Citibank VISA. I bought a set of alloy
- each bank has its own way of resolving disputes; especially if they
also sell insurance, charge purchase protection fees, etc. Also the
paypal rules are convoluted. see he
http://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr...mer_protection
about 3/4 down, paragraph VII - 5 (credit cards)

The safest solution to your problem is an escrow service. Check it
out on Ebay. I think escrow.com is their recommended escrow
service. The only problems are most sellers won't go through the
hassle and of course someone has to pay the fee.
in a way, that's what my visa does except the seller doesnt know that
if he fails to live up to his end of the contract (deliver what was
promised), he wont see the dough.

You just contact the seller, tell him exactly what you want, and ask
him to put it up on Ebay as a fixed price listing which you can then
good idea, i didnt know I had that option

buy. If he won't, then I'd say that's the end of it. Do you want
to do business with someone that you have to force to even start doing
he already provided me with a quote, invoice, terms, conditions, etc.
(i am looking at it right now) so at this point I want him to deliver
what he promised to deliver or admit he is a crook. At this point I
am so irate for wasting so much time on this and being flamed so many
times for asking what I thought were legit questions that this time I
need to **** on somebody too. And I am ready to send the seller's
invoices and sales contract to ebay if I find out exactly who wants
them.

an ethical transaction? The fact that he only has 10 feedbacks and I
think most of them were as buyer would be my main concern. I'd never
that's because he conducts business off-line and uses eBay to
advertise his goods. Those Tamko shingles have been on his eBay since
at least March/07.

unless you do the escrow or can pick it up and pay then. And any
legitimate business seller should understand that.
I really struggle to understand why he conducts his business "cash
only". Perhaps he doesnt have any inventory/warehouse and doesnt want
to take responsibility if something goes wrong.

On Oct 27, 12:16 pm, "Gini" wrote:
wrote in message

ups.com...



On Oct 27, 1:40 am, "Gini" wrote:
wrote"Gini" wrote:
wrote in message

..................................

I have to take exception to your statement that the seller ever told
the buyer that he is doing anything to deliberately avoid Ebay fees.

==
Huh? I said that?

"
This seller is using this auction as a "sell-through" for the balance
of the
materials
normally needed to finish the project, while only paying eBay fees for
the
"limited amount"
of material offered via the auction (which is precisely what he told
the OP
during previous
communications)."

==
That does not address the statement you made above.
I never said
"the seller ever told
the buyer that he is doing anything to deliberately avoid Ebay fees."
==
.......

The statement above that I cited sure seems to say it.

==
Your lack of comprehension is not my problem

==
It ends with "which is precisely what he told the OP during previous
communications." And also, let me point out that the OP never said
that in the previous transaction the seller didn't include materials
normally needed to finish the project. As I asked you before, and
you refuse to answer, what exactly determines the items I must kit
together according to you or better yet Ebay?

===
I did not "refuse to answer." I told you to go to eBay Help files if you are
still confused.


I'm not confused. I simply have not seen anything on Ebay's policies
that say if I'm selling an item that I've listed, and in the course of
that transaction the buyer asks if I have something else to sell, that
I MUST THEN DO THAT TRANSACTION BY LISTING IT ON EBAY.

The example I gave was if I'm selling 15 packs of shingles on Ebay and
the buyer then asks if I happen to have a case of nails he needs, do I
have to then list those nails on Ebay and not sell them direct? Your
answer is YES, all I want is a link to where on Ebay it says that. If
you know so much and are correct that should be easy, yet you prefer
to avoid it.

So, where is it stated on Ebay? Link please. That would easily
settle it.

wrote:
On Oct 27, 12:16 pm, "Gini" wrote:

wrote in message

roups.com...




On Oct 27, 1:40 am, "Gini" wrote:

wrote"Gini" wrote:

wrote in message

..................................

I have to take exception to your statement that the seller ever told
the buyer that he is doing anything to deliberately avoid Ebay fees.

==
Huh? I said that?

"
This seller is using this auction as a "sell-through" for the balance
of the
materials
normally needed to finish the project, while only paying eBay fees for
the
"limited amount"
of material offered via the auction (which is precisely what he told
the OP
during previous
communications)."

==
That does not address the statement you made above.
I never said
"the seller ever told
the buyer that he is doing anything to deliberately avoid Ebay fees."
==
.......

The statement above that I cited sure seems to say it.

==
Your lack of comprehension is not my problem


==
It ends with "which is precisely what he told the OP during previous

communications." And also, let me point out that the OP never said
that in the previous transaction the seller didn't include materials
normally needed to finish the project. As I asked you before, and
you refuse to answer, what exactly determines the items I must kit
together according to you or better yet Ebay?

===
I did not "refuse to answer." I told you to go to eBay Help files if you are
still confused.



I'm not confused. I simply have not seen anything on Ebay's policies
that say if I'm selling an item that I've listed, and in the course of
that transaction the buyer asks if I have something else to sell, that
I MUST THEN DO THAT TRANSACTION BY LISTING IT ON EBAY.

The example I gave was if I'm selling 15 packs of shingles on Ebay and
the buyer then asks if I happen to have a case of nails he needs, do I
have to then list those nails on Ebay and not sell them direct? Your
answer is YES, all I want is a link to where on Ebay it says that. If
you know so much and are correct that should be easy, yet you prefer
to avoid it.

So, where is it stated on Ebay? Link please. That would easily
settle it.





I call "HITLER" on this thread.

On Oct 27, 1:59 pm, Frugal Farmer
wrote:
On Sat, 27 Oct 2007 09:01:53 -0700, wrote:
So you got two very different answers to your question in two days.
You reported yesterday that the answer was that VISA would not cover
the transaction through Paypal because the charge was legitimately
placed by Paypal, (the merchant who they have a contract with), and
then sent on to some other party who you actually have the problem

- yes, that' right. And they said the same today. And they're
getting mighty sick of me calling in asking the same question. I give
them my card# and they pull up a history of my calls and then repeat
what was said the last time.
My basic, no-fee visa doesnt have the protection of perhaps
gold/platinum or whatever cards. Especially in a case when paypal
clearly said - insured up to $200 - buyer beware.
And I didnt purchase their (visa) "purchase protection insurance".
Therefore, if I "just pay" for something, dispute it a few weeks
later, I will not get the same attention as somebody else with
additional perks on his card.

with. Today, they tell you they will, but only if you either

1 - Prove fraud occurred. But the question is, fraud by whom? They
could later very easily say that means that the fraud has to be by
their merchant, Paypal. And Paypal wasn;t the fraud.

fraud as in not shipping or not intending to ship or shipping empty
box, etc. No protection for damaged, missing or some other debate
able reason. Their main point is that it is a lot of hassle for my
bank to hold somebody responsible when the money is already gone. The
bank wont eat it and paypal wont eat it since the seller already spent
it.

2 - Do some special documented transaction through VISA.

yes, visa specifically wants to review the sales contract and
description of goods beforehand to process a potential claim. It
becomes a secure sale, in effect C.O.D. Eventhough, the seller
(probably) gets a confirmation he is getting money, he cannot use the
money until he delivers. Once I sign for goods, the funds are
released.
again, dont shoot me just because this is how my bank/visa does it. It
might be different for everybody else.

You can see the problem here. You got two different answers to the
same question in 24 hours. And neither of them says what many people

- not really. just two different options how to conduct an online
purchase.

here are claiming, which is that if you just use a credit card through
Paypal on their website, like everyone would, you don't have the
credit card protection that you would if you used it directly with a
merchant who takes VISA.

ebay/paypal are probably exceptions to the general rule due to their
size and convoluted way of processing payments. they have the weight
behind them to negotiate their own terms and do things their way.


No, Paypal is different because the credit card company has a
contractual relationship with Paypal, not the person you had Paypal
wire it to after they received the funds on a legitimate processing
request from you. It's almost like taking a cash advance on your CC
at an ATM, then taking the cash, buying a fake watch, getting ripped
off, and expecting the CC bank to cover it. If this guy took CC
directly, then VISA would have a contractual relationship with him,
would have checked his credit worthiness, etc. With the money going
through Paypal, the CC bank has no way of knowing who the money is
sent to or for what.



And if this winds up screwed, what happens when the next person at
VISA tells you something different? This isn't a simple issue and I

my visa logs history and contents of phone calls


Which is better than nothing, but you don't know exactly what is
recorded there in a few brief notes or how it will be interpreted if
you come calling for $3500 and they aren't so eager to pay.




would not trust what anyone told me verbally as you have no proof
later. I'd want to see VISA's policy in writing that explicitly
deals with Paypal transactions.

I asked too and visa didnt provide anything. Just told me to deal
directly with cust. service (visa) before engaging in shady
transactions that dont look straight forward.

The only thing I can tell you is I had this exact problem with a
Paypal transaction through Citibank VISA. I bought a set of alloy

- each bank has its own way of resolving disputes; especially if they
also sell insurance, charge purchase protection fees, etc. Also the
paypal rules are convoluted. see hehttp://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr...tside#consumer...
about 3/4 down, paragraph VII - 5 (credit cards)

The safest solution to your problem is an escrow service. Check it
out on Ebay. I think escrow.com is their recommended escrow
service. The only problems are most sellers won't go through the
hassle and of course someone has to pay the fee.

in a way, that's what my visa does except the seller doesnt know that
if he fails to live up to his end of the contract (deliver what was
promised), he wont see the dough.


Maybe I'm missing something, but since he wants money in his bank
BEFORE he ships, how will he not know that payment hasn't been
received until you agree you are satisfied either way?



You just contact the seller, tell him exactly what you want, and ask
him to put it up on Ebay as a fixed price listing which you can then

good idea, i didnt know I had that option

buy. If he won't, then I'd say that's the end of it. Do you want
to do business with someone that you have to force to even start doing

he already provided me with a quote, invoice, terms, conditions, etc.
(i am looking at it right now) so at this point I want him to deliver
what he promised to deliver or admit he is a crook. At this point I
am so irate for wasting so much time on this and being flamed so many
times for asking what I thought were legit questions that this time I
need to **** on somebody too. And I am ready to send the seller's
invoices and sales contract to ebay if I find out exactly who wants
them.


http://pages.ebay.com/securitycenter...ml?_trksid=m40

You can report him there. If you have a quote for those shingles he
sent to you to sell them to you outside of Ebay, it is a clear
violation. I'd be very interested in hearing what, if any, response
you get, other than a form email back.



an ethical transaction? The fact that he only has 10 feedbacks and I
think most of them were as buyer would be my main concern. I'd never

that's because he conducts business off-line and uses eBay to
advertise his goods. Those Tamko shingles have been on his eBay since
at least March/07.

unless you do the escrow or can pick it up and pay then. And any
legitimate business seller should understand that.

I really struggle to understand why he conducts his business "cash
only". Perhaps he doesnt have any inventory/warehouse and doesnt want
to take responsibility if something goes wrong.


Maybe because his credit and banking history is so bad that he the
credit card companies won't do business with him.

On Sat, 27 Oct 2007 09:10:00 -0700, wrote Re
For asshole trader4:

And I think you're right, Ebay wants to do everything they can to put
more transactions through their own Paypal instead.

I noticed recently that to even open an eBay account you *must* have
PayPal. That wasn't the case several years ago. They are getting
greedy.

On Sat, 27 Oct 2007 11:26:37 -0700, jJim McLaughlin
I call "HITLER" on this thread.

it's not that I am back after I said I am going over to
alt.marketing.online.ebay to pick their brains.

I am just about to place my question in alt.marketing.online.ebay
except the core of it is based on this:
The example I gave was if I'm selling 15 packs of shingles on Ebay and
the buyer then asks if I happen to have a case of nails he needs, do I
have to then list those nails on Ebay and not sell them direct? Your
answer is YES, all I want is a link to where on Ebay it says that. If
you know so much and are correct that should be easy, yet you prefer
to avoid it.

being an undisputable fact. Therefore, I do too:

So, where is it stated on Ebay? Link please. That would easily
settle it.

require a confirmation that the above is a fact so I dont make an ass
out of myself in front of another group just because somebody doesnt
have his/her facts lined up.

Is this it?:
http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/...umventing.html
http://pages.ebay.com/help/tutorial/...ial/intro.html

On Oct 27, 3:31 pm, Frugal Farmer
wrote:
On Sat, 27 Oct 2007 11:26:37 -0700, jJim McLaughlin

I call "HITLER" on this thread.

it's not that I am back after I said I am going over to
alt.marketing.online.ebay to pick their brains.

I am just about to place my question in alt.marketing.online.ebay
except the core of it is based on this:

The example I gave was if I'm selling 15 packs of shingles on Ebay and
the buyer then asks if I happen to have a case of nails he needs, do I
have to then list those nails on Ebay and not sell them direct? Your
answer is YES, all I want is a link to where on Ebay it says that. If
you know so much and are correct that should be easy, yet you prefer
to avoid it.

being an undisputable fact. Therefore, I do too:

So, where is it stated on Ebay? Link please. That would easily
settle it.

require a confirmation that the above is a fact so I dont make an ass
out of myself in front of another group just because somebody doesnt
have his/her facts lined up.

Is this it?:



http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/...umventing.html
http://pages.ebay.com/help/tutorial/...al/intro.html- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It's only "it" if you can show me where in either of those links it
says that if a guy is selling 15 sq of shingles that are listed on
Ebay and in the course of the legitimate Ebay transaction you ask if
he also has a box of nails, that he has to sell you those by listing
them on Ebay. I don;t see anything that comes close. That was the
question that I posed to Gini and so far, aside from her insisting
that the answer is Yes, the nails must go through Ebay too, I don;t
see anything on Ebay that says it's true.

Note, I'm not saying that this guy proposing to sell you all the
shingles you need, while only listing one box on Ebay is not a
violation. I agree that with his giving you a sales agreement for
the transaction outside of Ebay it is a violation of Ebay rules.
But I'd like to see where it says that if you do a legitimate
transaction on Ebay, but learn the buyer wants some additional item,
like the nail example, that you then have to put the nails through
Ebay.

Or how about a used car dealer that lists and sells some cars on
Ebay. If he sells a car that he has listed on Ebay and the buyer
buys the car through Ebay, but also asks to have a stereo put in it as
a seperate additional item, does that have to go through Ebay?

Until someone shows me where it says otherwise, I say the answer is
NO.

wrote
.........................

Note, I'm not saying that this guy proposing to sell you all the
shingles you need, while only listing one box on Ebay is not a
.........................
violation. I agree that with his giving you a sales agreement for
the transaction outside of Ebay it is a violation of Ebay rules.
But I'd like to see where it says that if you do a legitimate
transaction on Ebay, but learn the buyer wants some additional item,
like the nail example, that you then have to put the nails through
Ebay.
...........................

Until someone shows me where it says otherwise, I say the answer is
NO.
=====
C'mon...aren't you going to ask the friendly folks at
alt.marketing.online.ebay?
They love these profoundly complicated questions of great national
importance.
I'll bring the popcorn.

On Sat, 27 Oct 2007 11:40:36 -0700, wrote:

No, Paypal is different because the credit card company has a
contractual relationship with Paypal, not the person you had Paypal
wire it to after they received the funds on a legitimate processing
request from you. It's almost like taking a cash advance on your CC
at an ATM, then taking the cash, buying a fake watch, getting ripped
off, and expecting the CC bank to cover it. If this guy took CC
directly, then VISA would have a contractual relationship with him,
would have checked his credit worthiness, etc. With the money going
through Paypal, the CC bank has no way of knowing who the money is
sent to or for what.

I follow your argument. I dont have answers for you. I would like to
know myself how it works except my visa cust.serv. just about had it
with me calling in asking the same question over and over again.

Which is better than nothing, but you don't know exactly what is
recorded there in a few brief notes or how it will be interpreted if
you come calling for $3500 and they aren't so eager to pay.
would not trust what anyone told me verbally as you have no proof
later. I'd want to see VISA's policy in writing that explicitly
deals with Paypal transactions.

it's all verbal but I am supposed to wait and get a ref.# after they
review the sales contract so I cxn proceed with my purchase

Maybe I'm missing something, but since he wants money in his bank
BEFORE he ships, how will he not know that payment hasn't been
received until you agree you are satisfied either way?

the misunderstanding is due to the cut & paste b.s. that goes on
here.
My visa cust rep. is looking at this as a "here and now" situation and
I am reporting it as a future transaction "my visa-paypal-seller".
Thus, paypal will process my cc# and seller gets a confirmation that
payment was made, yet, selller will not be able to whisk the funds to
his other (offshore) account until I sign for goods received. If I
dont sign, the funds ( at paypal?) will be yanked out, seller gets
nothing.

http://pages.ebay.com/securitycenter...ml?_trksid=m40

You can report him there. If you have a quote for those shingles he
sent to you to sell them to you outside of Ebay, it is a clear
violation. I'd be very interested in hearing what, if any, response
you get, other than a form email back.

I most certainly do have the quote, sales order number, invoice, list
of parts (including shingles that were quoted on ebay), emails,
headers w/ time & dates, etc. All what is missing is the steel roof
in my driveway.
Before I give it to ebay, I will give the seller a chance to make
good on his promise to ship the goods.

unless you do the escrow or can pick it up and pay then. And any
legitimate business seller should understand that.
my visa will do that and no, he doesnt understand "that" as I already
discussed it with him repeatedly on the phone and email

Maybe because his credit and banking history is so bad that he the
credit card companies won't do business with him.

- only the seller,
Gary McElligott
Operations Manager
Code Camey and Associates, Inc.
479-229-1302/479-886-1590
can answer that with absolute certainty.

"Frugal Farmer"wrote
wrote:
........................

Maybe because his credit and banking history is so bad that he the
credit card companies won't do business with him.

- only the seller,
===========
You know that it is a violation of eBay TOS to post personal identifying
information of another user online?

....snipped seller's name, address, and phone number...
=========
can answer that with absolute certainty.

On Sat, 27 Oct 2007 21:57:12 GMT, "Gini" wrote:

===========
You know that it is a violation of eBay TOS to post personal identifying
information of another user online?

...snipped seller's name, address, and phone number...
=========
no I didnt. sorry, have not used ebay much, never read their rules
& regulations. will try to rescind & re-post w/o the compromising
info. i dont see rescind in my usenet reader @ this moment. - will
look for it.

anyways, further to your other posts, I dont have a problem going to
alt.marketing.online.ebay w/ my queations; however, I have taken this
(gini-trade4):

I asked if I sell
shingles, and in the course of emails, it turns out the guy asks me if
I sell nails, must I then list them on Ebay? A simple YES or NO?
==
I answered YES. You must be reading every other line.

as a fact since you sounded so definitive & conclusive. Could you
please provide the link. it doesnt matter how friendly atl.ebay are,
they will fry my ass if I dont have my ducks in line. thanks.

"Frugal Farmer" wrote
"Gini" wrote:

===========
You know that it is a violation of eBay TOS to post personal identifying
information of another user online?

...snipped seller's name, address, and phone number...
=========
no I didnt. sorry, have not used ebay much, never read their rules
& regulations.

===
I think I see your problem. You want me to read their rules and regulations
for you?
===

.....................
as a fact since you sounded so definitive & conclusive. Could you
please provide the link.

===
I provided a description of where it can be found via "Report this Item" in
the
auction listing. Go back through my posts, you'll find it. I am not going to
eBay's
Help files to dig for info that you or anyone else can dig through on their
own. I'm
just not being paid enough here.
===

it doesnt matter how friendly atl.ebay are,
they will fry my ass if I dont have my ducks in line. thanks.
==
You've been given the answers to your questions repeatedly but you've chosen
to discard them demanding a "link" that is clearly your responsibility to
find. You asked
for advice and were given advice. If you wanted a link, you should have gone
to eBay Help, not
usenet, and certainly not alt.home.repair.
==
==

wrote in message
oups.com...
On Oct 27, 10:53 am, Frugal Farmer
wrote:
On Sat, 27 Oct 2007 05:40:57 GMT, "Gini" wrote:

wrote
"Gini" wrote:
wrote in message
..................................

==
All your questions *of merit* have been answered here. See eBay "Help"
to
resolve any
further confusion you may have pertaining to eBay rules. Hey. I
know--ask on
alt.marketing.online.ebay. They are
real friendly folks over there who love helping newbies.
==

I don't want to step on anybody's toes, so just relax and don't bite
my head off, shoot my dog or electrocute my cat over nothing. This
information and clarification I provide is for future reference to
those who may need it. Not to inflame another war.

My basic goal was to get steel shingles and not get duped by an
unscrupulous seller. I found what I was looking for on eBay. Many
recommended I use credit card as I will be protected.

snip

Anyway, I found out from my visa cust. service dept. this morning that
my basic, no-fee visa, as a rule of thumb, does NOT protect me for
THIS kind of purchase and I am on my own since terms of the purchase
are clearly spelled out - protected up to $200 and on the hook for the
rest. The charge wont (will NOT) be reversed unless I can prove fraud
occurred.

That said, I was also told that if I provide documentation (sales
contract) prior to the transaction taking place, my visa will "clear
the path" for this purchase. I gather this purchase becomes C.O.D. if
the bank knows ahead of time who, what, when, how.. In that case YES,
I am protected and they WILL reverse the entire charge regardless
what paypal offers ($200).


[snip]

The only thing I can tell you is I had this exact problem with a
Paypal transaction through Citibank VISA. I bought a set of alloy
wheels on Ebay that was clearly and seriously misrepresented as being
like new. I used the VISA on Paypal. The picture of the item was of
different wheels, probably brand new ones, and definitely not the ones
being sold which were old, dirty, serious curb rash, dings, etc.
Instead of like new, they were worse than the ones I had on the
car. The answer I got from Citibank VISA was clear. They
considered Paypal the legitimate charger, the transaction was vailid
and they would not get involved.


[snip]

If you have a problem with a seller, pay by credit card and challenge a
fraudulent charge, E-Bay will block you from rating the frauduulent seller
or from further buying on E-Bay. IOW, use E-Bay onbly if you're willing to
give up on normal credit card protections. I guess it hurts their image
when a supplier gets a low grade.

E-Bay is trying to operate outside of the normal credit card business plan
with which consumers are familiar and it appears if you use a credit card
through Paypal you lose a significant amount of consumer protection. If you
charge directly to a credit card to get normal cc protection and have to
challenge a purchse (e.g,, for non-delivery, or faulty merchandise), E-Bay
will prevent you from rating the bad supplier. Because negative ratings may
be blocked, one must assume that reported ratings may be artificially
inflated.

Example:
-- Textbook purchased on an E-Bay site and charged it to a credit card;
-- the seller failed to deliver;
-- E-Bay wants the consumer to wait 45 days before making a decision on a
problem, but the credit card cycle is 30 days. Consumer protection dictates
a challenge within 30 days. E-Bay would like to eliminate this consumer
protection.
-- E-Bay said it is against their (!) policy for customers (!!) to challenge
credit card purchases.
-- The credit card company said E-Bay's policy is a violation of the credit
card agreement with e-bay.
-- After the credit card challenge, E-Bay blocked the buyer from contacting
or rating the seller, so the seller still carries an artificially good
rating even though he hasn't delivered the goods

There are too many other reliable sources of stuff to worry about
questionable sources on e-bay, questionable credit card policies and
unreliable supplier ratings.

"Gini" wrote

I think I see your problem. You want me to read their rules and
regulations for you?

Gini,

Your response can be aimed towards a multitude of posters on here, you know
the ones. They believe what they write to be true, but in fact, it's only
their belief.

Too many of them would rather foam at the keyboard blabbering, than to
actually learn something useful. It appears they believe arguing and
ignoring the truth, makes what they believe is fact.

Your time and knowledge is too valuable to waste it on these types.

On Oct 28, 9:40 am, "Poppin Fresh" wrote:
"Gini" wrote

I think I see your problem. You want me to read their rules and
regulations for you?

Gini,

Your response can be aimed towards a multitude of posters on here, you know
the ones. They believe what they write to be true, but in fact, it's only
their belief.

Too many of them would rather foam at the keyboard blabbering, than to
actually learn something useful. It appears they believe arguing and
ignoring the truth, makes what they believe is fact.

Your time and knowledge is too valuable to waste it on these types.

Include yourself in that lis that claims to know what is true. You
claimed that Frugal would be protected from loss through Paypal for
purchase. No worry. And I provided you with the link to Paypal
where it clearly says that the basic Paypal protection is $200. To
get the higher $2000 protection a specific list of criteria must be
met. The first is the seller must have more than 50 feedback.
Doh! The guy Frugal is dealing with has only 10.

And Frugal also reported on his discussions with VISA, that made it
clear that if you use a credit card through Paypal as just a standard
transaction, you aren't covered. They did tell him if he did a
special transaction, upfront notifying them of who the money is
ultimately going to via Paypal, sending VISA the contracts, invoices,
etc BEFORE the transaction, etc, then they would hand hold the
transaction and provide protection, essentially through some type of
escrow.

That is way different than the claims the you and Gini made, which is
that just use a credit card through Paypal and everything is peachy
keen, you're protected just like if you used the card with a VISA
merchant.

As I reported earlier, I myself went through this exact experience.
I used a Citibank VISA through Paypal to pay for an Ebay purchase,
which turned out to be fraud. Citibank told me exactly what I posted
previously. That their transaction with Paypal was legitimate and it
was not their problem as to Paypal then sending the money to some
party that Citibank has no relationship or knowledge of. I suppose
you think if you take a cash advance on a credit card from an ATM,
then take the cash and buy a watch from somebody that turns out to be
fake, VISA is going to take that loss too?

Now, some credit card companies and banks make react differently.
But to tell folks that they can just pay with a credit card through
Paypal and they are protected is hogwash. And go try pursuing it
with Paypal. Unlike VISA, where you can call and speak to a real
person, you'll find that with Paypal you're dealing with an email
server robot. Eventually a real person gets involved, but even then,
I could never speak to anyone. Ultimately I wound up out about $40
on a $175 Paypal/Ebay transaction, and that was becasuse the seller
finally relented and made the refund.

I also have a problem with the attitude, "It;s as I say. I don't
need to support it with a link, go look for one yourself." That
isn't very helpful. Nor is providing links that have nothing to do
with the obvious question. When Bigbackpaker said it's a violation
of Ebay rules for a seller to take Western Union, what did you do?
You posted links to avoiding Ebay fees. Those links said nothing at
all about Western Union. All you had to do was provide the correct
link, which would have avoided a long heated discussion. Instead you
starting hurling vulgarities at me. Real impressive.

wrote in message
ups.com...
On Oct 28, 9:40 am, "Poppin Fresh" wrote:
"Gini" wrote

I think I see your problem. You want me to read their rules and
regulations for you?

Gini,

Your response can be aimed towards a multitude of posters on here, you
know
the ones. They believe what they write to be true, but in fact, it's
only
their belief.

Too many of them would rather foam at the keyboard blabbering, than to
actually learn something useful. It appears they believe arguing and
ignoring the truth, makes what they believe is fact.

Your time and knowledge is too valuable to waste it on these types.

Babbling

Need I say anymore about foaming at the keyboard?

You just proved my point. LOL

On Sun, 28 Oct 2007 00:41:50 GMT, "Gini" wrote:
"Frugal Farmer" wrote
"Gini" wrote:

===========
You know that it is a violation of eBay TOS to post personal identifying
information of another user online?

...snipped seller's name, address, and phone number...
=========
no I didnt. sorry, have not used ebay much, never read their rules
& regulations.

===
I think I see your problem. You want me to read their rules and regulations
for you?
===
no, you do not see my problem, that's the problem. You need to go and
have your eyes checked. MY problem is spelled out at the beginning
of this thread.

"Gini" wrote:
===
I provided a description of where it can be found via "Report this Item" in
the
auction listing. Go back through my posts, you'll find it. I am not going to
well, it ain't there! And whatever is there certainly doesnt address
the specific example trader4 gave you; an example that is relevant to
my question/problem.

"Gini" wrote:
eBay's
Help files to dig for info that you or anyone else can dig through on their
own. I'm
just not being paid enough here.
===
Nobody's getting paid enough here. Show me one that is.


"Gini" wrote:
==
You've been given the answers to your questions repeatedly but you've chosen

I've been given wrong answers repeatedly, that much is correct.
Needless to say, anything of value was said once and it was dead-on.

"Gini" wrote:
to discard them demanding a "link" that is clearly your responsibility to
find. You asked
for advice and were given advice. If you wanted a link, you should have gone
to eBay Help, not
usenet, and certainly not alt.home.repair.
==
For one, nobody here was "demanding" a link. You were asked to
provide a link to support your statement.
Had you ever gone to college or written a research paper, you would
understand that any claim needs to be supported by a reliable source -
referenced and cross-referenced. For example, all non-fiction books
and literature have sections called 'references' or 'bibliography'.
But how would YOU know? And that is the reason why you dance like a
comanche around hot fire and keep sending us on wild goose chase.
Trader4 asked you to support your statement. I asked you to reference
your source. Yet you choose to point to some "help" files. You might
as well point to the congress library.

your choice is:
1) support your claim/statement by providing a specific reference
2) withdraw your statement
3) qualify your statement as an uneducated opinion

"Gini" wrote:
to eBay Help, not
usenet, and certainly not alt.home.repair.
==
I certainly can see now that alt.home.repair was the wrong group to
ask eBay question with the likes of you hanging around.

On Mon, 29 Oct 2007 09:41:25 -0400, h wrote:
As several of us have said, click eBay, Help, search "western union", and
you will find several topics covering the many questions (is it legal, is it
fee avoidance, etc.) you asked about WU. You can do that for every single
question being asked by the many voices in your head. How much more freaking
documentation do you need? Plonk.

the WU is NOT the issue here at all. Gini/Popinn have already
established the restriction on WU use and Trader4 admitted he missed
that point and apologized. What Trader4 and I am asking for since Oct
27, 2:31 pm is this:

Gini ( Oct 27, 12:40 am) answered "YES" to Trade4's question:
And if you understand the Ebay rule so well, then why can't you answer
the question about what happens if I list shingles for sale and then
find out the guy who's buying the shingles also needs felt and
nails? Must I put them through Ebay?
==
Yes.
==

and then again

Gini ( Oct 27, 11:16 am) to Trader4's question:
I asked if I sell
shingles, and in the course of emails, it turns out the guy asks me if
I sell nails, must I then list them on Ebay? A simple YES or NO?
==
(gini): I answered YES. You must be reading every other line.

and that is also what I am asking as there is no point reporting
anything if Trader4's example:

The example I gave was if I'm selling 15 packs of shingles on Ebay and
the buyer then asks if I happen to have a case of nails he needs, do I
have to then list those nails on Ebay and not sell them direct? Your
answer is YES, all I want is a link to where on Ebay it says that. If
you know so much and are correct that should be easy, yet you prefer
to avoid it.

Is not a documented, undisputable, fact.

I am not lazy. I looked and I couldnt find it, which of course doesnt
mean it is not there. If Gini knows where it is, she should be able
to provide that reference within seconds.

"Frugal Farmer" wrote
==
For one, nobody here was "demanding" a link. You were asked to
provide a link to support your statement.
Had you ever gone to college or written a research paper, you would
understand that any claim needs to be supported by a reliable source -
referenced and cross-referenced.
==
ROTFL! You want *me* to do *your* damn research and cross-referencing? Damn
that was funny! (The questions were *yours,* remember?)
Apparently *you* haven't gone to college or written a research paper
or you'd know how to find embarrassingly simple answers without my holding
your hand. Did you demand someone else
do your research and writing for you in, what, was your highest
grade--perhaps 8th? I'll put my academic
and published writing credentials up against yours anytime, and I'll be
damned if I'm going to spoonfeed a couple of lazy
asses who can't even find their way to Help files. Now, go on over to
alt.marketing.online.ebay, and quit making a complete
fool of yourself there. They'd love to play with you ;-) Sheesh. You could
have found those Help files 20 times in the amount
of time you've spent here making yourself look totally silly.
==
==

smart buyers have payment figured out to suit them before they buy. i
hate it when a buyer wants to rewrite the payment terms he agreed to by
bidding after the sale. but it takes all kinds..

http://www.minibite.com/america/malone.htm

On Oct 29, 12:40 pm, "Gini" wrote:
"Frugal Farmer" wrote==
For one, nobody here was "demanding" a link. You were asked to
provide a link to support your statement.
Had you ever gone to college or written a research paper, you would
understand that any claim needs to be supported by a reliable source -
referenced and cross-referenced.

==
ROTFL! You want *me* to do *your* damn research and cross-referencing? Damn
that was funny! (The questions were *yours,* remember?)
Apparently *you* haven't gone to college or written a research paper
or you'd know how to find embarrassingly simple answers without my holding
your hand. Did you demand someone else
do your research and writing for you in, what, was your highest
grade--perhaps 8th? I'll put my academic
and published writing credentials up against yours anytime, and I'll be
damned if I'm going to spoonfeed a couple of lazy
asses who can't even find their way to Help files. Now, go on over to
alt.marketing.online.ebay, and quit making a complete
fool of yourself there. They'd love to play with you ;-) Sheesh. You could
have found those Help files 20 times in the amount
of time you've spent here making yourself look totally silly.
==
==

Frgual, by now it's obvious Gini realizes that she can't back up her
claim, because if she could, she would have provided it by now. The
assertion was that if a seller lists 15 boxes of shingles on Ebay and
in the course of that transaction, learns that the buyer also wants a
case of nails, that the seller must then list those nails and put them
through Ebay too. What's easier and establishes that she is correct?
Supplying a simple link to Ebay that shows she is right or making post
after post of nonsense about how it's up to someone else to prove?

And she and Poppin Fresh were dead wrong in leading people to believe
that if you just use a credit card through Paypal you're automaticaly
protected by the credit card company in the case that there is a
problem. You verified that is false with your calls to VISA, where
they told you that unless you follow a special procedure, including
notififying them ahead of time, sending them copies of the contract,
sales invoice, etc BEFORE doing the transaction that you are not
covered. And as I reported here, I went through that exact
scenario with Citibank VISA when I had a frauduantly purchase through
Ebay/Paypal and the answer was there is no protection from Citibank,
because their transaction wtih Paypal was legitimate, authorized by
the card holder and that is where their responsiblitly ends. They had
no control over who the money was ultimately sent to by Paypal.

Poppins advice was even worse, because the basic Paypal coverage, as
I'm sure you've seen, is only for $200. For the max Paypal coverage
of $2000, the transaction has to meet a bunch of criteria, one of
which is that the seller must have at least 50 feedbacks. The guy
you're dealing with has 10. So, listeneing to these two, you'd have
a whopping $200 of coverage on a $3500 purchase. On, and as another
shining example of how you can get screwed, in the Paypal coverage
fineprint it says it is only for tangible items. So, if you ordered
some concert tickets and got screwed out of $500, that ain't covered
at all. Sure, Paypal will try to help if it's indeed fraud, but if
the guy refused to refund the money, you're SOL. If you paid for
those tickets with a credit card directly, there is little doubt VISA
would make good on it.

So, folks can decide for themselves who is right and who if you listen
to, you're gonna wind up screwed.

On Mon, 29 Oct 2007 16:40:55 GMT, "Gini" wrote:
==
ROTFL! You want *me* to do *your* damn research and cross-referencing? Damn
that was funny! (The questions were *yours,* remember?)
- yes, the questions were mine; however, the answers - and the claim I
would like you to support was yours, not mine.

Apparently *you* haven't gone to college or written a research paper
- no, I didnt. but at least I know what bibliography or references
are.

or you'd know how to find embarrassingly simple answers without my holding
your hand. Did you demand someone else
- please, I dont mind being embarrassed. find it for me, pretty
please. I will thank you.

grade--perhaps 8th? I'll put my academic
and published writing credentials
- do they include bibliography or references? Or every time you make
a stupid claim you tell your readers:
damned if I'm going to spoonfeed a couple of lazy
asses who can't even find their way to Help files. Now, go on over to
alt.marketing.online.ebay, and quit making a complete
fool of yourself there. They'd love to play with you ;-) Sheesh. You could
- dont worry. I have already seen what a friendly group those people
are. And how you conducted yourself there, for example in the "Ebay
tips on how to not get ripped off". Are those the published "writing
credentials" you talk about? Real beauty.... I give you that....

have found those Help files 20 times in the amount
of time you've spent here making yourself look totally silly.
- I know where the files are and I think I read all there is except I
couldnt find anything to support your affirmative claim - specifically
the example that trader4 gave you. So please, educate me.

On Sun, 28 Oct 2007 14:10:04 -0400, "Poppin Fresh"
wrote:
Your time and knowledge is too valuable to waste it on these types.

Babbling

Need I say anymore about foaming at the keyboard?
au contre. Trade4 is not the one foaming at the keyboard. his points
are very analytical, specific and clinical as far as showing you where
you (Poppin Fresh) and Gini are/were dead wrong. He is not the one
using obscene language and he was the one that was not afraid to admit
he was wrong when shown, i.e. WU.

You just proved my point. LOL
-dont laugh. show credibility and rebuttal his point. and then laugh
if that's what will make you feel better. mature individuals usually
dont laugh when they are in a position to share their knowledge. did
teachers in your school laugh at you? Or were you always this smart!