Leon wrote:
On 9/18/2015 6:39 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote:

Yeah I forgot to mention that. I might suggest adding "Stabil" or
another gasoline stabilizer. while I never had a problem with my
Honda the additive worked wonders for my fathers Honda. The dealer
recommended it since alcohol is likely to be in the gas and that
attracts water. Relative inexpensive and good insurance against bad
gas or gas that might go bad.

The best approach is to use enthanol free gas in all of your small
engines. Unlike you car, the gas for your small engines can sit
around for a long time before you have to fill up the gas can again,
and can it in the tank over the winter season. Some of the
stabilizers do work, but not for as long as they advertise. That
said, the stabilizers do nothing to mitigate the effect of alcohol
on rubber hoses. Replacing fuel lines can get expensive at $6-$8
per foot for neoprene lines. Carb diaphrams disintegrate, the pot
metal used for the carb disintegrates. It's just bad stuff. Around
here ethanol free gas has become very common, but it is only sold as
91 Octane, so you're paying a premium price for it. Cheaper though,
than the repair costs for ethanol related problems.

Down here it is kind of hard to find ethanol free.

You know what really sucks? All gas comes in ethanol free. My SIL works
for a company that delivers gas to gas stations. They are the dominant
player in that space, in all of this region. They mix the ethanol in right
there at their facility. It all comes in as just plain old gasoline, and
then they ruin it by adding ethanol. Even worse - ethanol free is only
available at the pump as 91 Octane, as I said above. There is no reason
that it can't be available as 87 Octane as well. In NY, the requirement is
for a minimum of 10% ethanol, and different brand names have different
requirements for the ethanol blend. Sunoco has one requirement (they are
very specific about their gasoline), the regional names have (or can
have...) a different requirement, all based on their marketing. (Sunoco for
example, even stipulates that the tanker trucks be branded as Sunoco, rather
than the name of the company that is doing the delivery. They want to
really protect their branding). They're all at least 10%, but some are
more. Around here, none are 15% yet, but give Congress enough time and
they'll foist that on us too.

It's too bad that you can't find ethanol free gas easily down there - it
makes a huge difference in maintenance and reliability. I used to use the
additives, and they were OK, but they were not the total solution. I found
they would keep gas useable for up to a year (as compared to the
manufacturer's claim of up to 3 years...), but like I said earlier, that
only address separation, and does not address the corrosive and destructive
nature of alcohol on different forms of metal and rubbers. I've taken apart
many carbs - from things like string trimmers, to my 1945 farm tractor, and
have personally seen the effects of ethanol. Some can be addressed with a
bit of work, and some just can't. Small engine carbs of today (things like
string trimmers, etc.), just are not even worth the effort. You can't get
into all of the passages to clean them out and your chances of rebuilding
them is 50/50 at best. Anyone who works on these or has experience with
them will quickly tell you that it's not worth the effort - just buy a new
carb off ebay. I can attest to that.

The biggest shame of this whole ethanol scam is that it is a net energy
loss. But - whackos in California were able to convince idiots in
Washington...

--

-Mike-

On 9/18/2015 9:09 AM, Jack wrote:
On 9/17/2015 1:18 PM, Leon wrote:

I bought my wife a Ricar America vacuum cleaner. Expensive and appears
to be cheaply made. I bought that in 1991. that thing still performs
like it was new and most manufacturers have copied the concept.

My wife bought me a wet/dry Shop Vac around 1976. That thing got a lot
of use, and still works the same as the day I got it. The problem with
that thing is it makes your ears bleed. It's the _only_ tool I wear ear
muffs with, that includes chainsaws, air hammers and routers.

Last Christmas My kids got me a new Ridged 6 amp 14 gal model for Xmas.
It was around $100, I don't need ear muffs with it at all and if it
sucked any harder it would be hard to use. It came with a bunch of
attachments, and all my old 2 1/2" hoses/attachments fit it perfectly.

I could buy 6 of them for the cost of one Festool. If it lasts as long
as the shop vac, that would be 6 times 40 years. The only feature I
wished it had was a auto wind for the cord, like my wife's Hoover has.
That would make it perfect.


My wife bought me a broom for about $25. The last one lasted me 20
years. I could buy 4 of them for the cost of one Ridged, that would be
4 times 20 years. Longer than I would live.

If you like the tools you buy fine. Don't knock something you know
little about. I don't really understand your obsession with trashing
Festool.

Jack wrote:


My wife bought me a wet/dry Shop Vac around 1976. That thing got a
lot of use, and still works the same as the day I got it. The
problem with that thing is it makes your ears bleed. It's the _only_
tool I wear ear muffs with, that includes chainsaws, air hammers and
routers.

Had this same experience with an old 16 gallon Craftsman shop vac. Thought
I was doing a good thing by buying a big thing - quickly learned otherwise.
Bulky, unweildy, and louder than a KC135 on takeoff with water injection.
This thing literally made your ears ring.


Last Christmas My kids got me a new Ridged 6 amp 14 gal model for
Xmas. It was around $100, I don't need ear muffs with it at all and
if it sucked any harder it would be hard to use. It came with a
bunch of attachments, and all my old 2 1/2" hoses/attachments fit it
perfectly.

Again - same experience. A few years ago my daughter bought me a Ridged (I
think it's 6 gallon). It's much more appropriately sized for my needs,
sucks like... well - you know where I could take that..., and it's quiet
enough to use in the house. Does not blow out as much as it vaccums up - as
that old Craftsman did. I can clean up spackling dust and not notice any
dust output back into the room. It's picked up anything I've ever tried to
vaccum.


I could buy 6 of them for the cost of one Festool. If it lasts as
long as the shop vac, that would be 6 times 40 years. The only
feature I wished it had was a auto wind for the cord, like my wife's
Hoover has. That would make it perfect.

Agreed. But my agreement is based completely on my needs, and what I'm
willing to put up with. I'm honestly not sure how well it would compare to
any other vaccum as a dust collection device. I'm sure it would do better
than nothing, but right now - I use nothing, so it's all speculation in my
mind.

--

-Mike-

On 9/18/2015 9:25 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote:
On 9/18/2015 6:39 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote:

Yeah I forgot to mention that. I might suggest adding "Stabil" or
another gasoline stabilizer. while I never had a problem with my
Honda the additive worked wonders for my fathers Honda. The dealer
recommended it since alcohol is likely to be in the gas and that
attracts water. Relative inexpensive and good insurance against bad
gas or gas that might go bad.

The best approach is to use enthanol free gas in all of your small
engines. Unlike you car, the gas for your small engines can sit
around for a long time before you have to fill up the gas can again,
and can it in the tank over the winter season. Some of the
stabilizers do work, but not for as long as they advertise. That
said, the stabilizers do nothing to mitigate the effect of alcohol
on rubber hoses. Replacing fuel lines can get expensive at $6-$8
per foot for neoprene lines. Carb diaphrams disintegrate, the pot
metal used for the carb disintegrates. It's just bad stuff. Around
here ethanol free gas has become very common, but it is only sold as
91 Octane, so you're paying a premium price for it. Cheaper though,
than the repair costs for ethanol related problems.

Down here it is kind of hard to find ethanol free.

You know what really sucks? All gas comes in ethanol free. My SIL works
for a company that delivers gas to gas stations. They are the dominant
player in that space, in all of this region. They mix the ethanol in right
there at their facility. It all comes in as just plain old gasoline, and
then they ruin it by adding ethanol. Even worse - ethanol free is only
available at the pump as 91 Octane, as I said above. There is no reason
that it can't be available as 87 Octane as well. In NY, the requirement is
for a minimum of 10% ethanol, and different brand names have different
requirements for the ethanol blend. Sunoco has one requirement (they are
very specific about their gasoline), the regional names have (or can
have...) a different requirement, all based on their marketing. (Sunoco for
example, even stipulates that the tanker trucks be branded as Sunoco, rather
than the name of the company that is doing the delivery. They want to
really protect their branding). They're all at least 10%, but some are
more. Around here, none are 15% yet, but give Congress enough time and
they'll foist that on us too.

It's too bad that you can't find ethanol free gas easily down there - it
makes a huge difference in maintenance and reliability. I used to use the
additives, and they were OK, but they were not the total solution. I found
they would keep gas useable for up to a year (as compared to the
manufacturer's claim of up to 3 years...), but like I said earlier, that
only address separation, and does not address the corrosive and destructive
nature of alcohol on different forms of metal and rubbers. I've taken apart
many carbs - from things like string trimmers, to my 1945 farm tractor, and
have personally seen the effects of ethanol. Some can be addressed with a
bit of work, and some just can't. Small engine carbs of today (things like
string trimmers, etc.), just are not even worth the effort. You can't get
into all of the passages to clean them out and your chances of rebuilding
them is 50/50 at best. Anyone who works on these or has experience with
them will quickly tell you that it's not worth the effort - just buy a new
carb off ebay. I can attest to that.

The biggest shame of this whole ethanol scam is that it is a net energy
loss. But - whackos in California were able to convince idiots in
Washington...


It seems that every station I go to has a warning label that indicates
that anything from the pump may contain up to 10% alcohol. It does not
indicate a specific octane having or not having it.
From what I understand there are typically two underground tanks for
the three different obtains. The medium grade is a mixture of regular
and premium. That probably explains why premium is alcohol free and the
lower grades are not, IF gasoline is handled the same way up there. And
if so a medium grade gasoline should have less alcohol content.

Alcohol in fuel is like cereal in dog food, strictly a filler.

On 9/18/2015 9:24 AM, Jack wrote:
On 9/17/2015 3:05 PM, Leon wrote:

You mostly see Ricar vacuum cleaners at dealer and repair shops that
mostly sell to cleaning companies. It is a commercial machine.
The real beauty is that it is quiet compared to others and is very light
weight. Probably 10~15 lbs.

I worked in an office and used the janitors vacuum once to clean
something I spilt. This thing was beat up to hell and back, cleaning
many thousands of square feet a day for years. I was amazed at how this
thing cleaned, and was super easy to push around. It was jaw dropping.
Anyway, I don't recall the name, but at the time, I looked it up and
the price was also jaw dropping, so my wife was stuck with the Hoover.:-)


Yeah the Ricar is north of $1000 now. I'm glad ours still works well
although for the past 8 years we have been using a Roomba vac. It
vacuums 5 days a week every week on the entire down stairs in the new
house. My wife uses the Ricar in a single carpeted room up stairs.

On 9/17/2015 9:23 PM, krw wrote:
honda motors are good

The whole mower is built well.

I've never had a problem with cheap mowers motors. I have had problems
with the rest of the mower however. The frames rust out, the wheels
fall apart, but the motors work. I'm on my second lawn mower since
getting married, 40 years ago.

The first one. a $75 Murray with a Briggs engine, the frame rusted out,
the second also a Briggs engine, is still working fine, I had to fix the
wheels on it, but it starts on first/second pull.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 9/18/2015 9:36 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:


Agreed. But my agreement is based completely on my needs, and what I'm
willing to put up with. I'm honestly not sure how well it would compare to
any other vaccum as a dust collection device. I'm sure it would do better
than nothing, but right now - I use nothing, so it's all speculation in my
mind.



LOL, FWIW the Festool has two relative large HEPA filters the pretty
much keep it all inside. Actually the inside of the VAC leading to
those filters stays pretty dust free.

Probably 20 years ago we agreed to see a Rainbow demonstration. Jeez
what a complicated messy vacuum.
Anyway the salesman wanted to compare the Rainbow to our Ricar.

So the smoke and mirrors demonstration started. Both his and ours
sucked and held his bowling ball, even score.

He asked me to vacuum a section of carpet and go over it 10 times. Then
he places a black cloth mid hose on his to act as a filter and vacuumed
over the same spot 10 times more. There was dust on the black cloth.
Rainbow 1, Ricar 0.
I asked to see another black cloth and did the same with the hose on our
vacuum. I re-vacuumed the same spot 10 more times and we examined the
black cloth. Rainbow 0, Ricar, 1

His next bag of tricks was to turn out the lights and he truned on a
bright light directed near the exhaust on the Rainbow. Just a wee bit
of dust was seen floating in the air. He did the same with our Ricar
and said see how much dust is floating in the air. I said no, he took
another look and pointed the light is several directions around our vac.
Humm, must be something wrong with my light. I said goodbye.

On 9/18/2015 10:07 AM, Jack wrote:
On 9/17/2015 9:23 PM, krw wrote:
honda motors are good

The whole mower is built well.

I've never had a problem with cheap mowers motors. I have had problems
with the rest of the mower however. The frames rust out, the wheels
fall apart, but the motors work. I'm on my second lawn mower since
getting married, 40 years ago.

The first one. a $75 Murray with a Briggs engine, the frame rusted out,
the second also a Briggs engine, is still working fine, I had to fix the
wheels on it, but it starts on first/second pull.



Every once in a while one gets out that was built right. You sure a
lucky guy Jack.

On 9/17/2015 9:36 PM, krw wrote:
On Thu, 17 Sep 2015 11:15:04 -0400, Jack wrote:

I call this the Coors effect, and I think for this group, you could call
it the Festool effect.

From someone who's never used the product?

Nope. From someone that understands marketing.

Are you saying that you are a Festool user?

No. I'm saying that some products are marketed as high priced products.
Some, particularly hobbyists, don't mind paying $650 for a shop vac,
and in fact, many insist on having the most expensive product made.
Festool, imo, is aiming directly at that market, and the fact Festool
doesn't allow their stuff to be discounted by the retailer fits that
model.

It's not that their stuff isn't good, it certainly _should_ be, but,
again, imo, the difference between a quality saw, vacuum, drill and the
price Festool charges is insane. Tradesmen generally don't buy festool
stuff either, not because it's not quality, but because it costs too
much, and they can get more bang for the buck with good quality stuff
that costs considerably less, particularly if they are not the only guy
using the tools.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On Friday, September 18, 2015 at 9:02:33 AM UTC-5, Swingman wrote:

The _true value_ of any equipment/tool used in business is it's cost
effectiveness.

Well said, and completely on target.

When I am working at a homeowner's house that is a hobby guy, they are in one of two camps. They either have really cheap tools, if any, or they are collectors that enjoy using really expensive tools. Nothing wrong with that.

On 9/18/2015 10:58 AM, Jack wrote:
On 9/17/2015 9:36 PM, krw wrote:
On Thu, 17 Sep 2015 11:15:04 -0400, Jack wrote:

I call this the Coors effect, and I think for this group, you could
call
it the Festool effect.

From someone who's never used the product?

Nope. From someone that understands marketing.

Are you saying that you are a Festool user?

No. I'm saying that some products are marketed as high priced products.
Some, particularly hobbyists, don't mind paying $650 for a shop vac,
and in fact, many insist on having the most expensive product made.
Festool, imo, is aiming directly at that market, and the fact Festool
doesn't allow their stuff to be discounted by the retailer fits that model.

It's not that their stuff isn't good, it certainly _should_ be, but,
again, imo, the difference between a quality saw, vacuum, drill and the
price Festool charges is insane. Tradesmen generally don't buy festool
stuff either, not because it's not quality, but because it costs too
much, and they can get more bang for the buck with good quality stuff
that costs considerably less, particularly if they are not the only guy
using the tools.



AAMOF tradesmen were using Festool long long before Festool became known
to the general hobbyist such as yourself.

On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 07:39:54 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

Leon wrote:

Yeah I forgot to mention that. I might suggest adding "Stabil" or
another gasoline stabilizer. while I never had a problem with my
Honda the additive worked wonders for my fathers Honda. The dealer
recommended it since alcohol is likely to be in the gas and that
attracts water. Relative inexpensive and good insurance against bad
gas or gas that might go bad.

The best approach is to use enthanol free gas in all of your small engines.
Unlike you car, the gas for your small engines can sit around for a long
time before you have to fill up the gas can again, and can it in the tank
over the winter season. Some of the stabilizers do work, but not for as
long as they advertise. That said, the stabilizers do nothing to mitigate
the effect of alcohol on rubber hoses. Replacing fuel lines can get
expensive at $6-$8 per foot for neoprene lines. Carb diaphrams
disintegrate, the pot metal used for the carb disintegrates. It's just bad
stuff. Around here ethanol free gas has become very common, but it is only
sold as 91 Octane, so you're paying a premium price for it. Cheaper though,
than the repair costs for ethanol related problems.

Yeah, it's around $3.40 a gallon around here. I buy it, when it's
convenient but I haven't had trouble with "old" gas since they
improved the supply system a decade or so back. I never do anything
special to the gas, other than dumping what's left in the gas can into
my car at the end of the season.

On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 11:58:13 -0400, Jack wrote:

On 9/17/2015 9:36 PM, krw wrote:
On Thu, 17 Sep 2015 11:15:04 -0400, Jack wrote:

I call this the Coors effect, and I think for this group, you could call
it the Festool effect.

From someone who's never used the product?

Nope. From someone that understands marketing.

Are you saying that you are a Festool user?

No. I'm saying that some products are marketed as high priced products.

No, stuff sells for what it's worth. It really is that simple. If
you don't believe that, you need to go back to Economics 101.

Some, particularly hobbyists, don't mind paying $650 for a shop vac,
and in fact, many insist on having the most expensive product made.
Festool, imo, is aiming directly at that market, and the fact Festool
doesn't allow their stuff to be discounted by the retailer fits that
model.

Your opinion is wrong, of course. I may have a few Festools but it's
not because they're expensive. Most users are *not* hobbyists.
Clearly if they were meant for hobbyists there wouldn't be the big
emphasis on the Systainer system. They're just another case to me,
and not as good as a good blow-mold case at that.

It's not that their stuff isn't good, it certainly _should_ be, but,
again, imo, the difference between a quality saw, vacuum, drill and the
price Festool charges is insane. Tradesmen generally don't buy festool
stuff either, not because it's not quality, but because it costs too
much, and they can get more bang for the buck with good quality stuff
that costs considerably less, particularly if they are not the only guy
using the tools.

Since you've never used Festools, your opinion isn't worth more than
the hot air it is. The fact is that you're wrong.

On Friday, September 18, 2015 at 11:51:28 AM UTC-5, wrote:

About 18 years ago I bought a DeWalt 10" miter saw and paid $225 for it.

Just last month, the saw handle broke. The rest of the saw is fine, but the replacement handle is about 25% of the cost of a new saw.

Can you repair or make a new handle? Or want to spend the time trying?

A possible option:
I often try to repair stuff, so just a thought.... Would fiber glass work for the repair? There is fiber glass wrap, for making casts for broken limbs and such. Seems, if your handle is similar to a child's small arm, repairing it may be similar to applying a cast to a child's small arm.... with a splint/metal rod inserted inside the wrapping, if need be?).
https://www.google.com/search?q=orth...w=1280&bih=841

You simply dip the roll in water, to activate it, slightly wringing the excess water out, and wrap, forming whatever contour, etc, to whatever shape you need. It's very easy. You can easily cut it with scissors, to stop and restart any wrapping, if need be.

You may not be able to purchase the rolls directly from a medical supply outlet, but maybe you can. You'd probably have to purchase a box of 10-12, rather than one or two rolls. Maybe your local orthopedist would sell you two 3" rolls. I would suppose 2 rolls would be enough. I see online prices are much lower than med supply outlets. An orthopedist may charge up to 10X the online rate.

Sonny

"Swingman" wrote in message
...
On 9/17/2015 10:28 AM, Jack wrote:

Did Festool suddenly change their pricing structure to more accurately
reflect the true value of the tools, or are you just being fatuous?

The _true value_ of any equipment/tool used in business is it's cost
effectiveness.

Bought first Festool (starting with a TS-75) in 2009, and collectively
they have played a big part in well over $300k in sales in just the
shop/cabinetry part of my business alone during that period ... making
them the most _cost effective_ brand of tools I've ever owned.


First, a sarcastic remark.

Gee Karl, only 300 K worth of hobby cabinets? You are obviously a hobbyist
and amateur. If you were a true professional, you would save up your money
and buy the good stuff.

There are a lot of folks who just don't understand economics, tools or
appropriate technology. I work with some special computers that are only
built in about 4 or five shops in the US. And it takes three to four weeks
to get one built and shipped to you. And they only run a few programs. And
yes, they are expensive.

But the interesting thing is that there are local shops that will build you
a monster machine that costs twice as much. And they won't be as stable, or
as fast and will burn out quite rapidly in use. Because throwing money at
it doesn't get the job done. Due to some unique demands, that increase
every year, not a lot of machines can keep up. The key is not the money
spent or expensive components. The key is building a machine optimized for
a certain function.

Price is not the only issue. IS IT THE RIGHT TOOL FOR THE JOB??? People
who work in the real world, solving real problems, spending their own money
don't have any problems making appropriate decisions in this area.

Besides, it takes a certain kind of person to whine about tools or somebody
else's choice of tool. I have always admired good tools. I have always
admired true craftsman. I don't have any problem figuring out whose
opinions I respect and those opinions I disregard.

On Thursday, September 17, 2015 at 4:28:12 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

I remember that, mostly because Festool does not charge $1000 for that
saw. The bigger corded one is $750.00 including a 75" track and
systainer case. Bought separately the 75" track is $200 and the case is
north of $70.

I find that when someone exaggerates the price this is not all that is
suspect about their comments.

Either way it is a fine saw and system. With its quality of cut it very
well could replace or put off the need to buy a quality TS for cutting.

Ya know, the more you guys speak of, not just Festool, but their track saw, the more I think I'd benefit with one. Aside, I suppose I've made my share of snide remarks, jokingly, relating to Festool.

I often use a circular saw and there are times I wish I had something more convenient for a better job, a better cutting method, more accuracy, etc., especially with the work at the farm. I can't conveniently bring a table saw to the farm, and I'm becoming more convinced the track saw would do wonders for the ongoing work, there. A circular saw is not always the best saw for applications, there, and $750 is economical, in all respects, for the farm application. I'd probably leave it there, permanently.

My only hesitancy is with others not taking good care of the tools, as I take care of them. If I'm not there to watch over them, they'll abuse stuff..... *if and when they decide to try to do something productive, **for a change.

More rant: A set of decent saw horses, at the farm, would do wonders, also, and I'm sure would accommodate a track saw. The present saw horses were made by a nephew and are pitifully inadequate: Poor construction and 20" tall. What was he thinking?!! Sometimes, the woodworking sense, I try to instill in them, just doesn't seem to be getting through. But, at least his efforts were a try, at saw horseing.

Sonny

On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 10:25:45 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

You know what really sucks? All gas comes in ethanol free. My SIL works
for a company that delivers gas to gas stations.

Ethanol is way better than MTBE additive for better emission control.

Sonny wrote:


Ya know, the more you guys speak of, not just Festool, but their
track saw, the more I think I'd benefit with one. Aside, I suppose
I've made my share of snide remarks, jokingly, relating to Festool.

I often use a circular saw and there are times I wish I had something
more convenient for a better job, a better cutting method, more
accuracy, etc., especially with the work at the farm. I can't
conveniently bring a table saw to the farm, and I'm becoming more
convinced the track saw would do wonders for the ongoing work, there.
A circular saw is not always the best saw for applications, there,
and $750 is economical, in all respects, for the farm application.
I'd probably leave it there, permanently.


You're not so far from thoughts that I've had Sonny, but to be honest - I
keep going back to the same thought - can't I get almost the same thing out
of my circular saw and a saw guide (or whatever they call it...). You know
what I mean - the sled you build such that your saw always cuts just like
the Festool jig does - only it does not have the nice dust collection
system. Huge difference in cost though. You can build your own for $10
versus what the retail versions cost - Festool being the top of the heap,
cost wise.

Here's just one of many videos about these homemade jigs...

http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/vide...808204,00.html

Probably not as sophisticated as the retail versions, but for a lot of us -
it's really all we need. And - it works. It will cut a straight line just
as well as any of the expensive alternatives.

--

-Mike-

Markem wrote:
On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 10:25:45 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

You know what really sucks? All gas comes in ethanol free. My SIL
works for a company that delivers gas to gas stations.

Ethanol is way better than MTBE additive for better emission control.

From mixing to combustion, it's a net energy loss. End of story.

--

-Mike-

On 9/18/2015 4:25 PM, Sonny wrote:
On Thursday, September 17, 2015 at 4:28:12 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

I remember that, mostly because Festool does not charge $1000 for
that saw. The bigger corded one is $750.00 including a 75" track
and systainer case. Bought separately the 75" track is $200 and
the case is north of $70.

I find that when someone exaggerates the price this is not all that
is suspect about their comments.

Either way it is a fine saw and system. With its quality of cut it
very well could replace or put off the need to buy a quality TS for
cutting.

Ya know, the more you guys speak of, not just Festool, but their
track saw, the more I think I'd benefit with one. Aside, I suppose
I've made my share of snide remarks, jokingly, relating to Festool.

We will help yu remove some of the egg from your face when you buy one. ;~)


I often use a circular saw and there are times I wish I had something
more convenient for a better job, a better cutting method, more
accuracy, etc., especially with the work at the farm. I can't
conveniently bring a table saw to the farm, and I'm becoming more
convinced the track saw would do wonders for the ongoing work, there.
A circular saw is not always the best saw for applications, there,
and $750 is economical, in all respects, for the farm application.
I'd probably leave it there, permanently.

Something to consider, the Festool will produce cabinet saw quality
cuts. Do you need that or the accuracy of straight lines? If only the
accuracy of straight lines Grizzly offers a track saw that might be the
answer and take some sting out it being abused.
But if you want top of the line and quality cuts I highly recommend the
Festool.

Let me add a bit of buying strategy. If you are going to be ripping
sheets of 4x8 plywood you are going to also need to purchase an extra
length of track. The TS55 track saw comes with a 55" track, the TS75
track saw comes with a 75" track. To rip an 8' sheet you will need
about 10' of track. The 75" and the 55" tracks give you almost 11',
and you will need to buy 2 rail connectors, $36.

If you buy a TS55 track saw with 55" rail and add the connectors and a
75" rail you are going to pay $640 for the saw, $36 for the connectors
and $200 for the 75" rail, total $875.

If you buy a TS75 track saw with 75" rail and add the connectors and a
55" rail you are going to pay $750 for the saw, $36 for the connectors
and $129 for the 55" rail, total $915.

With the understanding that the TS55 needs an additional 75" rail and
the TS75 needs and additional 55" rail the difference between the two
saw set ups is only $40 more for the bigger TS 75 saw.

Just something to consider if you are thinking one saw over the other
and will need to make 96" or longer cuts.




My only hesitancy is with others not taking good care of the tools,
as I take care of them. If I'm not there to watch over them,
they'll abuse stuff.... *if and when they decide to try to do
something productive, **for a change.

The case that comes with the saw is very good and easy to deal with,
take the saw home with you. OTOH they could be abusing a $1500 TS.


Going a bit further, I recently had to replace my, all plastic, Stanley
saw horses. The picture shows my set up for cutting sheet goods with my
track saw and may be the only true example of something none of us
thought was possible, having too many clamps. I ended up buying a set
of Dewalt saw horses that have steel legs and pretty much plastic every
where else. I think you can figure out the set up which worked well
until one of the plastic legs on the saw horse buckled.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/

Leon wrote:


Something to consider, the Festool will produce cabinet saw quality
cuts. Do you need that or the accuracy of straight lines? If only
the accuracy of straight lines Grizzly offers a track saw that might
be the answer and take some sting out it being abused.
But if you want top of the line and quality cuts I highly recommend
the Festool.

But honestly Leon - isn't that more a matter of the blade, than anything
else? How can it be any other factor?



If you buy a TS55 track saw with 55" rail and add the connectors and a
75" rail you are going to pay $640 for the saw, $36 for the connectors
and $200 for the 75" rail, total $875.

Ouch!


If you buy a TS75 track saw with 75" rail and add the connectors and a
55" rail you are going to pay $750 for the saw, $36 for the connectors
and $129 for the 55" rail, total $915.

Oucher!



--

-Mike-

On 9/18/2015 5:08 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Sonny wrote:


Ya know, the more you guys speak of, not just Festool, but their
track saw, the more I think I'd benefit with one. Aside, I suppose
I've made my share of snide remarks, jokingly, relating to Festool.

I often use a circular saw and there are times I wish I had something
more convenient for a better job, a better cutting method, more
accuracy, etc., especially with the work at the farm. I can't
conveniently bring a table saw to the farm, and I'm becoming more
convinced the track saw would do wonders for the ongoing work, there.
A circular saw is not always the best saw for applications, there,
and $750 is economical, in all respects, for the farm application.
I'd probably leave it there, permanently.


You're not so far from thoughts that I've had Sonny, but to be honest - I
keep going back to the same thought - can't I get almost the same thing out
of my circular saw and a saw guide (or whatever they call it...). You know
what I mean - the sled you build such that your saw always cuts just like
the Festool jig does - only it does not have the nice dust collection
system. Huge difference in cost though. You can build your own for $10
versus what the retail versions cost - Festool being the top of the heap,
cost wise.

Here's just one of many videos about these homemade jigs...

http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/vide...808204,00.html

Probably not as sophisticated as the retail versions, but for a lot of us -
it's really all we need. And - it works. It will cut a straight line just
as well as any of the expensive alternatives.


You can absolutely do that Mike and it does work well. Swingman and I
did that countless times with his Makita and a similar guide rail.
The problem is that many saws simply have slack tolerances. The blade
does not always spin in the same plane and you get a relatively
straight cut once you clear away all the tear out, especially if you are
cross cutting plywood. But relative straight is all dependent on
whether the blade moves side to side. This is not absolutely a problem
with all saws but I have seen many older saws that display this problem.
Additionally the Festool saw address the possibility of tear out on the
top of the cut. This is a real problem when cross cutting. The Festool
plunges safely mid panel with out having to lift the saw to start the
cut. And maybe not so important, the Festool saw is stellar with dust
control providing you have a vac and hose connected.
With most any home or shop built track you are going to need a couple of
clamps to hold the track in place. The Festool track stays in place
with out clamps if the surface is not covered with dust.

Now if you are simply cutting material to a workable size what you
suggest is a great way to go. Because Swingman and I sell a majority of
our work the old saying, time is money, kicks in. We found that the
Festool eliminates, in many instances, the need to re-cut the plywood
panels and that along with all the other features I mentioned really
speeds up production.

What Swingman and Nailshooter and I have been indicating over and over
is that a quality tool that was designed for the tradesman, you are
going to get results that you can sell whether you are a cabinet maker
or a fine furniture builder.

If time is important the Festool is going to be a good choice.

On 9/18/2015 5:42 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote:


Something to consider, the Festool will produce cabinet saw quality
cuts. Do you need that or the accuracy of straight lines? If only
the accuracy of straight lines Grizzly offers a track saw that might
be the answer and take some sting out it being abused.
But if you want top of the line and quality cuts I highly recommend
the Festool.

But honestly Leon - isn't that more a matter of the blade, than anything
else? How can it be any other factor?

The blade is very important and Festool provides and has a nice
selection of premium blades. But a great blade can not make better a
tool that is not built for accuracy.
How many times have we seen the comment that the Forrest WWII does not
improve the cut over my "brand X" blade. The set up is wrong or the TS
is simply not capable of producing a better cut regardless of the blade.

The big deal that we/I have found is that with the Festool saw you can
start a cut, stop, lift the saw, replace the saw, start the saw, plunge
and continue cutting with out being able to tell where you stopped and
started. Many circular saws are simply designed to cut relatively
straight. I have seen several, I own two, that you can move the blade
back and forth, in and out towards the motor housing and that causes a
cut that is not flat. It's the tolerances built into the Festool track
saw that puts it above the non track circular saws.

If you have noticed, most all of the major saw makers are offering track
saws and all of them are unique. I am certain those saws have higher
build quality tolerances otherwise they could simply offer a track to
work with one of their existing saws.

And it is not just the quality of a straight line cut. It is also the
quality and accuracy of a plunge cut. The accuracy of being able to
start and stop precisely where you want in a plunge cut. Granted these
are a lot of features that many may not ever need but with more options
come more opportunities. I never dreamed that I would be using my
Domino 10 more than I used my biscuit cutters. If you are anal with your
precision the results show.

These saws are absolutely not for every one nor does it make sense for
everyone to buy one. BUT if you want to save time, get premium cuts, or
just appreciate a top quality product I don't think you will be
dissatisfied.








If you buy a TS55 track saw with 55" rail and add the connectors and a
75" rail you are going to pay $640 for the saw, $36 for the connectors
and $200 for the 75" rail, total $875.

Ouch!


If you buy a TS75 track saw with 75" rail and add the connectors and a
55" rail you are going to pay $750 for the saw, $36 for the connectors
and $129 for the 55" rail, total $915.

Oucher!

On 9/18/2015 5:09 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Markem wrote:
On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 10:25:45 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

You know what really sucks? All gas comes in ethanol free. My SIL
works for a company that delivers gas to gas stations.

Ethanol is way better than MTBE additive for better emission control.

From mixing to combustion, it's a net energy loss. End of story.


Ironically and what many do not realize is the truth that there is a net
energy loss and as a result you literally have to burn more fuel to get
the same output and therefore create more emissions.

Leon wrote:


The blade is very important and Festool provides and has a nice
selection of premium blades. But a great blade can not make better a
tool that is not built for accuracy.
How many times have we seen the comment that the Forrest WWII does not
improve the cut over my "brand X" blade. The set up is wrong or the
TS is simply not capable of producing a better cut regardless of the
blade.
The big deal that we/I have found is that with the Festool saw you can
start a cut, stop, lift the saw, replace the saw, start the saw,
plunge and continue cutting with out being able to tell where you
stopped and started. Many circular saws are simply designed to cut
relatively straight. I have seen several, I own two, that you can
move the blade back and forth, in and out towards the motor housing
and that causes a cut that is not flat. It's the tolerances built
into the Festool track saw that puts it above the non track circular
saws.

That actually makes a lot of sense. I guess I never really paid any or
enough attention to the stability of the common circular saw blade.

--

-Mike-

Leon wrote:
On 9/18/2015 5:09 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Markem wrote:
On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 10:25:45 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

You know what really sucks? All gas comes in ethanol free. My SIL
works for a company that delivers gas to gas stations.

Ethanol is way better than MTBE additive for better emission
control.

From mixing to combustion, it's a net energy loss. End of story.


Ironically and what many do not realize is the truth that there is a
net energy loss and as a result you literally have to burn more fuel
to get the same output and therefore create more emissions.

Yup!

--

-Mike-

On 9/18/2015 6:33 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote:


The blade is very important and Festool provides and has a nice
selection of premium blades. But a great blade can not make better a
tool that is not built for accuracy.
How many times have we seen the comment that the Forrest WWII does not
improve the cut over my "brand X" blade. The set up is wrong or the
TS is simply not capable of producing a better cut regardless of the
blade.
The big deal that we/I have found is that with the Festool saw you can
start a cut, stop, lift the saw, replace the saw, start the saw,
plunge and continue cutting with out being able to tell where you
stopped and started. Many circular saws are simply designed to cut
relatively straight. I have seen several, I own two, that you can
move the blade back and forth, in and out towards the motor housing
and that causes a cut that is not flat. It's the tolerances built
into the Festool track saw that puts it above the non track circular
saws.

That actually makes a lot of sense. I guess I never really paid any or
enough attention to the stability of the common circular saw blade.




Something that I for got to mention. I think it was Christmas time
2008. Karl sent me a picture of his new Track saw. We went to see them
on our weekly get together and he and I went out to his shop. I looked
at it, touched it, maybe even smelled it. LOL

Anyway he cut a scrap piece of wood to show me what to push, what to
pull, and how the riving knife came down with the blade and then he
stepped aside to let me make a test "cross cut" in a piece of plywood.
I hate to say this but it seems like yesterday. I set the saw on the
track, pushed the plunge release, pulled the trigger, pushed down to
plunge the blade, and pushed the saw about 6". I stopped and I think I
said daaaamn. That was all it took to see and feel the difference in
this saw and and any other circular saw that I have used.

I can only say it is a slippery slope. I think Karl may have said
daaamn when he saw a kitchen that we had built and installed and that I
had finished sanding with my Festool sanders and vac. He got those
sanders too. LOL He is behind in score, 1 Domino and 1 drill. ;~)

On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 14:25:33 -0700 (PDT), Sonny
wrote:

On Thursday, September 17, 2015 at 4:28:12 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

I remember that, mostly because Festool does not charge $1000 for that
saw. The bigger corded one is $750.00 including a 75" track and
systainer case. Bought separately the 75" track is $200 and the case is
north of $70.

I find that when someone exaggerates the price this is not all that is
suspect about their comments.

Either way it is a fine saw and system. With its quality of cut it very
well could replace or put off the need to buy a quality TS for cutting.

Ya know, the more you guys speak of, not just Festool, but their track saw, the more I think I'd benefit with one. Aside, I suppose I've made my share of snide remarks, jokingly, relating to Festool.

You'll kick yourself for holding out this long. Be prepared to buy at
least another rail and couplers. ;-)

I've thrown my share of Festool barbs at Leon myself. ;-)

I often use a circular saw and there are times I wish I had something more convenient for a better job, a better cutting method, more accuracy, etc., especially with the work at the farm. I can't conveniently bring a table saw to the farm, and I'm becoming more convinced the track saw would do wonders for the ongoing work, there. A circular saw is not always the best saw for applications, there, and $750 is economical, in all respects, for the farm application. I'd probably leave it there, permanently.

My only hesitancy is with others not taking good care of the tools, as I take care of them. If I'm not there to watch over them, they'll abuse stuff.... *if and when they decide to try to do something productive, **for a change.

More rant: A set of decent saw horses, at the farm, would do wonders, also, and I'm sure would accommodate a track saw. The present saw horses were made by a nephew and are pitifully inadequate: Poor construction and 20" tall. What was he thinking?!! Sometimes, the woodworking sense, I try to instill in them, just doesn't seem to be getting through. But, at least his efforts were a try, at saw horseing.

Sonny

On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 18:42:15 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

Leon wrote:


Something to consider, the Festool will produce cabinet saw quality
cuts. Do you need that or the accuracy of straight lines? If only
the accuracy of straight lines Grizzly offers a track saw that might
be the answer and take some sting out it being abused.
But if you want top of the line and quality cuts I highly recommend
the Festool.

But honestly Leon - isn't that more a matter of the blade, than anything
else? How can it be any other factor?

Not a real good answer but my first circular saw (Crapsman) couldn't
cut a straight line for anything. I thought it was me but when I
replaced it, even with a just slightly less crappy saw (pre-BORG
Ryobi) the lines all of a sudden got a lot straighter. Those that say
a craftsman never blames his tools has never worked with good tools.



If you buy a TS55 track saw with 55" rail and add the connectors and a
75" rail you are going to pay $640 for the saw, $36 for the connectors
and $200 for the 75" rail, total $875.

Ouch!


If you buy a TS75 track saw with 75" rail and add the connectors and a
55" rail you are going to pay $750 for the saw, $36 for the connectors
and $129 for the 55" rail, total $915.

Oucher!

It only goes down from there. ;-)

On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 16:28:22 -0500, Markem
wrote:

On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 10:25:45 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

You know what really sucks? All gas comes in ethanol free. My SIL works
for a company that delivers gas to gas stations.

Ethanol is way better than MTBE additive for better emission control.

A *whole* lot better to drink, too!

On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 16:28:22 -0500, Markem
wrote:

On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 10:25:45 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

You know what really sucks? All gas comes in ethanol free. My SIL works
for a company that delivers gas to gas stations.

Ethanol is way better than MTBE additive for better emission control.

Should have added that neither are needed with modern engines.

Mike Marlow wrote:
Here's just one of many videos about these homemade jigs...

http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/vide...808204,00.html
Thanks for the video, Mike!

On 9/18/2015 7:18 PM, krw wrote:
On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 14:25:33 -0700 (PDT), Sonny
wrote:

On Thursday, September 17, 2015 at 4:28:12 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

I remember that, mostly because Festool does not charge $1000 for
that saw. The bigger corded one is $750.00 including a 75" track
and systainer case. Bought separately the 75" track is $200 and
the case is north of $70.

I find that when someone exaggerates the price this is not all
that is suspect about their comments.

Either way it is a fine saw and system. With its quality of cut
it very well could replace or put off the need to buy a quality
TS for cutting.

Ya know, the more you guys speak of, not just Festool, but their
track saw, the more I think I'd benefit with one. Aside, I
suppose I've made my share of snide remarks, jokingly, relating to
Festool.

You'll kick yourself for holding out this long. Be prepared to buy
at least another rail and couplers. ;-)

I've thrown my share of Festool barbs at Leon myself. ;-)

Yeah but now you are under the "Spell". LOL

On 9/18/2015 9:51 PM, krw wrote:
On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 18:42:15 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

Leon wrote:


Something to consider, the Festool will produce cabinet saw quality
cuts. Do you need that or the accuracy of straight lines? If only
the accuracy of straight lines Grizzly offers a track saw that might
be the answer and take some sting out it being abused.
But if you want top of the line and quality cuts I highly recommend
the Festool.

But honestly Leon - isn't that more a matter of the blade, than anything
else? How can it be any other factor?

Not a real good answer but my first circular saw (Crapsman) couldn't
cut a straight line for anything. I thought it was me but when I
replaced it, even with a just slightly less crappy saw (pre-BORG
Ryobi) the lines all of a sudden got a lot straighter.




Those that say a craftsman never blames his tools has never worked
with good tools.

ABSOLUTELY Correct!




If you buy a TS55 track saw with 55" rail and add the connectors and a
75" rail you are going to pay $640 for the saw, $36 for the connectors
and $200 for the 75" rail, total $875.

Ouch!


If you buy a TS75 track saw with 75" rail and add the connectors and a
55" rail you are going to pay $750 for the saw, $36 for the connectors
and $129 for the 55" rail, total $915.

Oucher!

It only goes down from there. ;-)


Yeah that is the big bite. Although my local Woodcraft kept the 197"
Guide Rail FS 5000 in stock, stood up in the corner like a flag pole.
$595.00 But you would not need the connector bars. ;~)

On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 09:58:51 -0500
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

although for the past 8 years we have been using a Roomba vac. It

Be careful with that around dogs

http://www.craigslist.org/about/best...112700681.html

On 9/18/2015 10:33 AM, Leon wrote:

My wife bought me a broom for about $25. The last one lasted me 20
years. I could buy 4 of them for the cost of one Ridged, that would be
4 times 20 years. Longer than I would live.

Her broom doesn't suck as hard as my Ridgid vacuum, and it's hoses don't
fit it either.

If you like the tools you buy fine. Don't knock something you know
little about. I don't really understand your obsession with trashing
Festool.

I like some, don't like others. I don't obsess about any of them.

I also don't trash Festools, I never once said they are trash. I don't
even mind that they cost more than other tools, it's a marketing scheme
that works well for them.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 9/18/2015 2:04 PM, Leon wrote:
On 9/18/2015 10:58 AM, Jack wrote:
On 9/17/2015 9:36 PM, krw wrote:
On Thu, 17 Sep 2015 11:15:04 -0400, Jack wrote:

It's not that their stuff isn't good, it certainly _should_ be, but,
again, imo, the difference between a quality saw, vacuum, drill and the
price Festool charges is insane. Tradesmen generally don't buy festool
stuff either, not because it's not quality, but because it costs too
much, and they can get more bang for the buck with good quality stuff
that costs considerably less, particularly if they are not the only guy
using the tools.

AAMOF tradesmen were using Festool long long before Festool became known
to the general hobbyist such as yourself.

I'm sure, but I've never seen them used on a job site, and I asked
around once at a local club with around 10 professional tradesman, all
in the business for many years, and not one of them owned or used any
festools, supporting my view not many tradesman use Festools, choosing
to use cheaper, high quality tools.

I suspect most Festool users are general hobbyists, with oil wells in
their back yard, like yourself. "Look at me ma, I'm using a Festool,
y'all know what this thing cost?"

I'm sure some professionals, that mostly work alone, own Festools, they
are supposedly top quality, as they should be considering the price.
I've just never met one, or talked to one, or walked past one. Rockler
sells them though.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 9/18/2015 2:17 PM, krw wrote:
On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 11:58:13 -0400, Jack wrote:

Some, particularly hobbyists, don't mind paying $650 for a shop vac,
and in fact, many insist on having the most expensive product made.
Festool, imo, is aiming directly at that market, and the fact Festool
doesn't allow their stuff to be discounted by the retailer fits that
model.

Your opinion is wrong, of course.

Of course, because you say so right? I actually took the time to ask a
bunch of people in the business, and not one, not ONE used Festools.
Some didn't even know what they were, and it's what they do for a
living. Others simple said they are far too expensive. For a closer
view, here is what one of our own (nailshooter) just said:

"Agreeing with you Karl, finding he exact fit of
price/utility/performance is the real key to what a tool is worth.
Excepting you and Leon whom I know both use your Festool(s)extensively
and constantly, _I know of no one else that does._"

I may have a few Festools but it's not because they're expensive. Most users are *not* hobbyists.

And what exactly is your profession, or are you a hobbyist?

Since you've never used Festools, your opinion isn't worth more than
the hot air it is. The fact is that you're wrong.

I've been using tools my entire life, been woodworking for going on 60
years. I know good tools, junk tools, and overpriced tools. Why is it
only Festool owners get their panties in a bunch when someone doesn't
get on their knees at the mention of their beloved Festool? If you
don't trust my answer, you could email Festool marketing dept, I'm sure
they could tell you.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 9/19/2015 8:10 AM, Jack wrote:

Rockler sells them though.


Rockler hasn't sold Festool in a couple of years ...

WoodCraft does.


--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 9/18/2015 7:03 PM, Leon wrote:

I can only say it is a slippery slope. I think Karl may have said
daaamn when he saw a kitchen that we had built and installed and that I
had finished sanding with my Festool sanders and vac. He got those
sanders too. LOL He is behind in score, 1 Domino and 1 drill. ;~)

What I need is more shop space. A Domino takes up a lot less room than
my Multi-Router, but I'm fond of the damned thing.

One of these days that will be the tipping point...

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)