On 09/21/2015 10:07 AM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
On 09/21/2015 09:04 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Doug Winterburn wrote:
On 09/21/2015 06:46 AM, Jack wrote:

BTW, two is the exact number of people I know that use Festool, just
as many as nailshooter knows, and the same two guys. Funny
coincidence huh. Well, Scott Phillips now uses them, and he builds
crap, and I suspect he is getting paid well from the Festool
marketing dept. Tommy Mac also must have had a wad of money dropped
on him by Festool. Tommy Silva should be next on their list. Silva
is the only one of those I respect.

Tom Silva has been using Festool for about 10 years. He also paid for
his collection.

Huh - imagine that. I don't ever recall seeing him using or even
advocating
Festool - but that could easily have been something I missed. It just
always seemed to me that he used the more common tools.

He does use other colors besides green, possibly because of sponsors.



http://blog.festoolusa.com/post/2010...tallation.aspx



--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill

On 9/21/2015 9:36 AM, Jack wrote:
On 9/20/2015 10:34 AM, Leon wrote:
Jack wrote:

I'm sure, but I've never seen them used on a job site, and I asked
around
once at a local club with around 10 professional tradesman, all in the
business for many years, and not one of them owned or used any festools,
supporting my view not many tradesman use Festools, choosing to use
cheaper, high quality tools.

Well you simply have not been to the right job site.

True, but then that's why I asked a bunch of guys that spend their
entire working life of job sites what they use, and none, not one, used
Festools, and a surprising number didn't know they existed.

Jack I suspect that it is going to take a particular type pro that wants
exacting standards to find one that works on location and might benefit
from using Festool. If you remember Robatoy, he was one of those guys.
I really did not know this caliber of tool was available until he
brought my attention to it.
FWIW most trades guys, especially down her in the south, are immigrants
that were simply looking for a job before becoming a carpenter. They
simply use the cheapest available equipment and then use a lot of caulk
to hide the imperfections.

And some of the guys on the job are not looking for better, they simply
want to do it they way they have always done it.

Anyway I would venture to say Tommy Silva uses Festool.



I have never seen a
Porter Cable circular saw, Milwaukee router, Makita plate joiner, Bosch
circular saw, or a Harbor Freight drill used on a job site either. That
does not mean that they are not there.

I've seen all those brand name tools on job sites. Just not Festool.

I have see all of these brands too, just not those particular type tools
in the brands listed.




If a tree falls in the middle of
the woods and nothing hears it, did it make a sound? Yes.
The fact that you or I have not witnessed something does not mean squat.

Very true. That's why I took the time to ask around last time we had
this discussion. Also, I noted that Nailshooter also never saw anyone
other than you and Swing use them. This certainly does not mean no one
uses them, but it means considerably more than squat.

You also have to understand that crews are less likely to use the
expensive tools vs. an individual.

AAMOF there are plenty of "pro's" on YouTube that demonstrate their work
truck set ups and you do see plenty of Festool on those locations, shops
and trucks.

If you go to the Festool web site there are plenty of pro's that have
video's too.



I have worked on many job sites and ben on many. For the ones that I
have
worked on, I was not the only one using his own Festool tools.

I believe you. I suspect, based on what I've seen, and what Nailshooter
has seen, and on my small survey, that the sitings are underwhelming.




I suspect most Festool users are general hobbyists, with oil wells in
their back yard, like yourself. "Look at me ma, I'm using a Festool,
y'all know what this thing cost?"

I suspect that you are only around mostly hobbyists.

Well your wrong about that. I'm the only hobbyist I'm around. I am
around lots of people in the trades, just no hobbyists.

We who earn a pay
check with our tools do not make that type of asinine comment. If I
were
not designing and selling work and or building and installing kitchens
sad
bathrooms I probably would now own ant Festool's either.

I've earned money working with my tools, just that it was never my
primary source of income. The folks I asked earn their living solely
working in the trades.

I'm sure some professionals, that mostly work alone, own Festools, they
are supposedly top quality, as they should be considering the price.
I've
just never met one, or talked to one, or walked past one. Rockler
sells them though.

On this group you have talked to at least two but are too damn
stubborn to
admit it.

Not to get picky, but I never talked to you, or Swing. I know a few on
this group use Festools. The fact, and it is a fact, that I've never
witnessed anyone, other than on TV, using Festools, and 0 "ZERO" percent
of the guys I've personally questioned on the subject use Festools means
more than "squat", at least to me.

I'm not so "stubborn" to think this means NO ONE uses Festools.

I am too "stubborn" to think you need Festools to build quality
furniture, bathrooms, kitchens or even to cut a straight line or suck up
some dust.

That is absolutely true but it is so much easier and more efficient with
these tools.




Also I'm too "stubborn" to think Festool is the only quality tool out
there, plenty of high quality tools out there at cheaper prices, and
I've seen all of them on job sites, just not Festool.

Rather than "stubborn", I'd prefer to call it experience, but I can live
with stubborn.

On Monday, September 21, 2015 at 7:36:38 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

Maybe one big difference in the track saws is that attention had been paid
to how they simply on a surface, work surface or track. Regular circular
saws have their blades and guards protruding through the shoe all of the
time. When you set it down they typically sit cocked and sitting on the
edge of the shoe and the guard, if the guard had not been removed. I would
imagine that might lead to mis alignment problems over time depending how
gently it gets set of dropped when put down.

I think that is a huge part of the problem. That is why I posted earlier that I have one saw that NO ONE touches but me. Period. It is supposed to be a "framing saw" at 15 amps and all ball bearing construction. But even with its heavy base, all someone has to do it drop it, step on it, knock it off a saw horse or table, etc., and it is most likely out of true.

I believe your second comment about how the blade/saw/track/alignment system works together is correct, also. Folks that don't do this for a living don't realize that blades go out of true from incorrect use, not just get dull. I can use a blade on my circular saw for months. Literally. My helpers? Sometimes just a week or two without it getting dull. The culprit is almost always the fact they can't freehand cut a straight line. When you hear the saw bind just a bit, worse a lot, and even worse than that, cause smoke... you are ruining the blade. Heat from binding is the culprit, and since there is usually a real struggle to get that saw blade cut back to the line, the front and back of the blade are cutting on different planes creating heat. When you are trying to bend the cut towards the marked line, the back end of the blade is kicking out. This is one reason you see the saw blade cuts on free hand rips.

A track saw eliminates all the problems. With proper alignment, there is actually little heat generated by a cut. With no heat you don't have blade warpage mostly due to the struggle to cut a straight line. Your track saw can be smaller, have less power and do a better job because it is ONLY cutting, not struggling with poor cutting technique. This is why track saws are smaller and less powerful than many circular saws.

Not sure about the comment on heat/warpage and its affect on your cuts and the longevity of the blade? Just look at your miter saw. How long has that blade been in there? How nice are the cuts you get with even an inexpensive blade? Think if it as another guided saw. Perfect alignment for that blade every time you cut. The last blade I put on my miter saw lasted a few years without needing a sharpening, all for the same reason. After explaining all of this about miter saws to a deck builder friend of mine, he went to HF and got their 12" miter saw and uses that as "the saw" and doesn't even take a circular out to the job anymore.

Robert

On 9/21/2015 11:04 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Doug Winterburn wrote:
On 09/21/2015 06:46 AM, Jack wrote:

BTW, two is the exact number of people I know that use Festool, just
as many as nailshooter knows, and the same two guys. Funny
coincidence huh. Well, Scott Phillips now uses them, and he builds
crap, and I suspect he is getting paid well from the Festool
marketing dept. Tommy Mac also must have had a wad of money dropped
on him by Festool. Tommy Silva should be next on their list. Silva
is the only one of those I respect.

Tom Silva has been using Festool for about 10 years. He also paid for
his collection.

Huh - imagine that. I don't ever recall seeing him using or even advocating
Festool - but that could easily have been something I missed. It just
always seemed to me that he used the more common tools.


He has used Festool on numerous occasions on both versions ATOH and TOH.
I always thought it odd that Festool never advertized on those shows and
yet they were used quite a bit. Especially the vac, saw, sanders, and
maybe the Domino and drill.

BUT he does not use them exclusively, there is not a huge collection so
some one else may be using them when you don't see him using them.

On 9/21/2015 11:04 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Doug Winterburn wrote:
On 09/21/2015 06:46 AM, Jack wrote:

BTW, two is the exact number of people I know that use Festool, just
as many as nailshooter knows, and the same two guys. Funny
coincidence huh. Well, Scott Phillips now uses them, and he builds
crap, and I suspect he is getting paid well from the Festool
marketing dept. Tommy Mac also must have had a wad of money dropped
on him by Festool. Tommy Silva should be next on their list. Silva
is the only one of those I respect.

Tom Silva has been using Festool for about 10 years. He also paid for
his collection.

Huh - imagine that. I don't ever recall seeing him using or even advocating
Festool - but that could easily have been something I missed. It just
always seemed to me that he used the more common tools.



One other thing..;~) You know you never notice a certain vehicle until
you buy one? I think the same goes with Festool.

On Monday, September 21, 2015 at 9:36:34 AM UTC-5, Jack wrote:

Very true. That's why I took the time to ask around last time we had
this discussion. Also, I noted that Nailshooter also never saw anyone
other than you and Swing use them. This certainly does not mean no one
uses them, but it means considerably more than squat.

If I were the only one using my tools and they didn't get pretty rough treatment sometimes I would consider Festool. 40 years ago, my fellow wood choppers were horrified that I spent $95 on a genuine Milwaukee "Hole Shooter", when a perfectly serviceable commercial grade Porter Cable (when they were worth having) drill could be had for $60. It runs to this day, and only missed a few days of work when I wore out the trigger. Before screw guns, before impact drivers, or anything else that drove screws as a dedicated tool, we had VSR drills to use, and that was mine.

I bought the very best I could at the time and it turned out to be a great choice. Repeat the same scenario with my first heavy duty circular. Getting away from those old Porter Cable saws of the day was a blessing in its self.

But in those days, I used the tools myself and carpenters were expected to buy their own tools. Now, carpenters/workers have a few tools, usually real crap, and they expect to use or at least borrow yours. I hate it, but it is the nature of the beast. Then of course, there are the guys that borrow and "didn't remember to bring it back". Another scenario is that like me, you leave tools behind to go check on other work as a supervisor, not working as a full time, dedicated site guy sent to do a specific job. Guys come and go when you aren't there, and so do your tools.

Lsst, the thing that bothers me the most is the guys don't take care of the tools. No just mine, some of them not even their own. So it doesn't make sense
to use tools that will be stolen, abused or misplaced. The guys that are out on the job today were raised in a disposable society, and they think of tools as just that. I haven't worked with carpenters in years that can sharpen a chisel on site, regrind the head of a Phillips screwdriver or bit, know how to adjust a framing square to true, or have the "hand" to cut a scribed line with a circular saw that needs no trim to cover it. I am afraid those days are gone.



I believe you. I suspect, based on what I've seen, and what Nailshooter
has seen, and on my small survey, that the sitings are underwhelming.

Yep. And based on what I posted above, you can see why. If I had a Festool drill that cost $500 and left it on site while I went to another job, and the guy I left it with found it gone when he got back from taking a whiz, I would be undone. Same if I heard the "it was an accident" story when it was knocked off the scaffold. Accidents always happen, but I have noticed they seem to happen a lot more with my tools than they do with theirs.

Robert

On 9/21/2015 12:29 PM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
On 09/21/2015 10:07 AM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
On 09/21/2015 09:04 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Doug Winterburn wrote:
On 09/21/2015 06:46 AM, Jack wrote:

BTW, two is the exact number of people I know that use Festool, just
as many as nailshooter knows, and the same two guys. Funny
coincidence huh. Well, Scott Phillips now uses them, and he builds
crap, and I suspect he is getting paid well from the Festool
marketing dept. Tommy Mac also must have had a wad of money dropped
on him by Festool. Tommy Silva should be next on their list. Silva
is the only one of those I respect.

Tom Silva has been using Festool for about 10 years. He also paid for
his collection.

Huh - imagine that. I don't ever recall seeing him using or even
advocating
Festool - but that could easily have been something I missed. It just
always seemed to me that he used the more common tools.

He does use other colors besides green, possibly because of sponsors.



http://blog.festoolusa.com/post/2010...tallation.aspx




That video right there demonstrates the quality of work being done by
the pro's these days. Did you see how far out of square the walls, in
the entry, were to the door wall? And he said both corners by the door
wall were were out the same amount. Both walls connecting to the door
wall formed an obtuse angle. So the facing walls were especially no
where near parallel.

That is why you don't see a lot of Festool on the job sites. You don't
need good tools to produce that kind of work.

Anyway. I thought the crown and clips were interesting.

On 9/21/2015 11:03 AM, Markem wrote:
On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 10:57:36 -0400, Jack wrote:

I talked with ten hobbyists, too, and none of them used Festools. It
seems that no one uses them.

You talked with "10 hobbyists too"? Who else talked to "hobbyists"
besides YOU? Are you so dumb you confuse "professional tradesman" with
hobbyists or are you, as I suspect, making **** up to support your goofy
arguments?

You are blowing up at a sarcastic remark, and remaining predictable
Jack.

The "sarcastic" remark was aimed at me, and it was "predictably" worded
in a way that made it look like I said something I didn't, ergo, a lie.
I didn't blow up either, I just asked him a question regarding his bogus
insinuation.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 9/21/2015 12:04 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Doug Winterburn wrote:
On 09/21/2015 06:46 AM, Jack wrote:

BTW, two is the exact number of people I know that use Festool, just
as many as nailshooter knows, and the same two guys. Funny
coincidence huh. Well, Scott Phillips now uses them, and he builds
crap, and I suspect he is getting paid well from the Festool
marketing dept. Tommy Mac also must have had a wad of money dropped
on him by Festool. Tommy Silva should be next on their list. Silva
is the only one of those I respect.

Tom Silva has been using Festool for about 10 years. He also paid for
his collection.

Huh - imagine that. I don't ever recall seeing him using or even advocating
Festool - but that could easily have been something I missed. It just
always seemed to me that he used the more common tools.

He makes enough money now I wouldn't be surprised he uses Festools at
all. I would be surprised he shows them on TV without being paid by
Festool. That would really be surprising.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 9/21/2015 1:07 PM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
On 09/21/2015 09:04 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Doug Winterburn wrote:

Tom Silva has been using Festool for about 10 years. He also paid for
his collection.

Huh - imagine that. I don't ever recall seeing him using or even
advocating
Festool - but that could easily have been something I missed. It just
always seemed to me that he used the more common tools.

He does use other colors besides green, possibly because of sponsors.

If you know he paid for his own Festools, out of curiosity, how come you
have to guess about other sponsors?

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 09/21/2015 01:29 PM, Jack wrote:
On 9/21/2015 1:07 PM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
On 09/21/2015 09:04 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Doug Winterburn wrote:

Tom Silva has been using Festool for about 10 years. He also paid for
his collection.

Huh - imagine that. I don't ever recall seeing him using or even
advocating
Festool - but that could easily have been something I missed. It just
always seemed to me that he used the more common tools.

He does use other colors besides green, possibly because of sponsors.

If you know he paid for his own Festools, out of curiosity, how come you
have to guess about other sponsors?

First of all, Festool isn't a sponsor. I have no idea what arrangements
TOH has with sponsors.


--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill

On 9/21/2015 11:04 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Huh - imagine that. I don't ever recall seeing him using or even advocating
Festool - but that could easily have been something I missed. It just
always seemed to me that he used the more common tools.

My favorite contractor, that Silva lad ...
Have seen him use Festool on a number of shows.
But mostly DeWalt, who, IIRC, is/was a sponsor.

Might also be that their audience is pretty much the DYI crowd, and
using tools that might be out of reach of the average DIY'er might not
be wise for gaining sponsorships.
--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 9/21/2015 3:29 PM, Jack wrote:
On 9/21/2015 1:07 PM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
On 09/21/2015 09:04 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Doug Winterburn wrote:

Tom Silva has been using Festool for about 10 years. He also paid for
his collection.

Huh - imagine that. I don't ever recall seeing him using or even
advocating
Festool - but that could easily have been something I missed. It just
always seemed to me that he used the more common tools.

He does use other colors besides green, possibly because of sponsors.

If you know he paid for his own Festools, out of curiosity, how come you
have to guess about other sponsors?

The credits and stand alone commercials typically indicate who is
supplying tools.

I think for sure Norm paid for most of his tools in the beginning on NYW.

On 9/21/2015 4:59 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 9/21/2015 11:04 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Huh - imagine that. I don't ever recall seeing him using or even
advocating
Festool - but that could easily have been something I missed. It just
always seemed to me that he used the more common tools.

My favorite contractor, that Silva lad ...
Have seen him use Festool on a number of shows.
But mostly DeWalt, who, IIRC, is/was a sponsor.

Might also be that their audience is pretty much the DYI crowd, and
using tools that might be out of reach of the average DIY'er might not
be wise for gaining sponsorships.


That is probably the correct assumption.

On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 16:23:18 -0400, Jack wrote:

On 9/21/2015 11:03 AM, Markem wrote:
On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 10:57:36 -0400, Jack wrote:

I talked with ten hobbyists, too, and none of them used Festools. It
seems that no one uses them.

You talked with "10 hobbyists too"? Who else talked to "hobbyists"
besides YOU? Are you so dumb you confuse "professional tradesman" with
hobbyists or are you, as I suspect, making **** up to support your goofy
arguments?

You are blowing up at a sarcastic remark, and remaining predictable
Jack.

The "sarcastic" remark was aimed at me, and it was "predictably" worded
in a way that made it look like I said something I didn't, ergo, a lie.
I didn't blow up either, I just asked him a question regarding his bogus
insinuation.

No what is predictable is your continuing expressing your views on
Festool and that it will degrade. Now I have seen your view point
several times and we all know were you stand.

Swingman wrote:
On 9/21/2015 11:04 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Huh - imagine that. I don't ever recall seeing him using or even
advocating Festool - but that could easily have been something I
missed. It just always seemed to me that he used the more common
tools.

My favorite contractor, that Silva lad ...
Have seen him use Festool on a number of shows.
But mostly DeWalt, who, IIRC, is/was a sponsor.

Might also be that their audience is pretty much the DYI crowd, and
using tools that might be out of reach of the average DIY'er might not
be wise for gaining sponsorships.

That's pretty much what I was thinking (notwithstanding that I missed an
Festools on the show...).

--

-Mike-

On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 16:23:18 -0400, Jack wrote:

On 9/21/2015 11:03 AM, Markem wrote:
On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 10:57:36 -0400, Jack wrote:

I talked with ten hobbyists, too, and none of them used Festools. It
seems that no one uses them.

You talked with "10 hobbyists too"? Who else talked to "hobbyists"
besides YOU? Are you so dumb you confuse "professional tradesman" with
hobbyists or are you, as I suspect, making **** up to support your goofy
arguments?

You are blowing up at a sarcastic remark, and remaining predictable
Jack.

The "sarcastic" remark was aimed at me, and it was "predictably" worded
in a way that made it look like I said something I didn't, ergo, a lie.
I didn't blow up either, I just asked him a question regarding his bogus
insinuation.

Good Lord, you're stupid. You came to the conclusion, with your
sample of ten tradesmen, that professionals didn't use Festools. I
was demonstrating just how goofy your logic is.

You didn't just ask a question, you went ballistic for no damned
reason and showed not only how thin skinned you are but just how
dense, in one paragraph.

On 9/21/2015 9:14 PM, Markem wrote:

The "sarcastic" remark was aimed at me, and it was "predictably" worded
in a way that made it look like I said something I didn't, ergo, a lie.
I didn't blow up either, I just asked him a question regarding his bogus
insinuation.

No what is predictable is your continuing expressing your views on
Festool and that it will degrade. Now I have seen your view point
several times and we all know were you stand.

Yes, my views on Festools are clear and consistent. I doubt my view
will "degrade" whatever that means. Do you think over time I'll begin
to think Festool should raise their prices as they are too low? What
exactly do you mean by degrading view?

As far as continuing expressing my view, do you think I shouldn't
express my views, like only a chosen few have a right to express their
views?

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 9/21/2015 9:37 PM, krw wrote:

Good Lord, you're stupid. You came to the conclusion, with your
sample of ten tradesmen, that professionals didn't use Festools. I
was demonstrating just how goofy your logic is.

Good lord you're stupid. I came to that conclusion when I never once
saw professionals in real life using Festools. I asked a small sample
of professionals, not hobbyist, and 100% of them did not use any
Festools, concurring with what I noticed. I asked them because I
realized I don't spend my life cruising job sites looking for Festools.
The result surprised even me. Turns out I'm not the only one that
noticed this.

That doesn't mean no professional on earth uses Festools, or that
Festools are trash. I never said either of those things, and in fact,
said exactly the opposite, and explained why I thought this was. Turns
out Nailshooter not only noticed the same thing, but also had the exact
same thoughts on why.

As far as your stupid "sarcastic" remark about your bogus 10 hobbyist
survey, if you had any brains you would have simply said what you
thought instead of making **** up.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 16:38:48 -0400, Jack wrote:

On 9/21/2015 9:14 PM, Markem wrote:

The "sarcastic" remark was aimed at me, and it was "predictably" worded
in a way that made it look like I said something I didn't, ergo, a lie.
I didn't blow up either, I just asked him a question regarding his bogus
insinuation.

No what is predictable is your continuing expressing your views on
Festool and that it will degrade. Now I have seen your view point
several times and we all know were you stand.

Yes, my views on Festools are clear and consistent. I doubt my view
will "degrade" whatever that means. Do you think over time I'll begin
to think Festool should raise their prices as they are too low? What
exactly do you mean by degrading view?

As far as continuing expressing my view, do you think I shouldn't
express my views, like only a chosen few have a right to express their
views?

The discussion degrades, if you need to be redundant in expressing
yourself go for it.

On 9/22/2015 4:04 PM, Jack wrote:
On 9/21/2015 9:37 PM, krw wrote:

Good Lord, you're stupid. You came to the conclusion, with your
sample of ten tradesmen, that professionals didn't use Festools. I
was demonstrating just how goofy your logic is.

Good lord you're stupid. I came to that conclusion when I never once
saw professionals in real life using Festools. I asked a small sample
of professionals, not hobbyist, and 100% of them did not use any
Festools, concurring with what I noticed. I asked them because I
realized I don't spend my life cruising job sites looking for Festools.
The result surprised even me. Turns out I'm not the only one that
noticed this.

I am very pro Festool for me, it pays for itself and I do better and
faster work as a result. BUT as you have observed I think you would
have to do a sampling of probably 200+ pros to find one or more that use
Festool.
On a similar note I have a relative that performs oil field equipment
maintenance and emergency repairs. He recently purchased a torque
wrench for the big nuts and bolts. Only he touches it. IIRC he paid
somewhere north of $23,000.00.
A lot of the guys out there just beat a wrench as long as it will turn.

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 17:04:54 -0400, Jack wrote:

On 9/21/2015 9:37 PM, krw wrote:

Good Lord, you're stupid. You came to the conclusion, with your
sample of ten tradesmen, that professionals didn't use Festools. I
was demonstrating just how goofy your logic is.

Good lord you're stupid. I came to that conclusion when I never once
saw professionals in real life using Festools. I asked a small sample
of professionals, not hobbyist, and 100% of them did not use any
Festools, concurring with what I noticed. I asked them because I
realized I don't spend my life cruising job sites looking for Festools.
The result surprised even me. Turns out I'm not the only one that
noticed this.

With a sample of 10 you jumped to an asinine conclusion. I see you're
dumb enough to double-down, even after your illogic has been pointed
out to you (even to the point of explaining the punch line).

That doesn't mean no professional on earth uses Festools, or that
Festools are trash. I never said either of those things, and in fact,
said exactly the opposite, and explained why I thought this was. Turns
out Nailshooter not only noticed the same thing, but also had the exact
same thoughts on why.

Dang! You're stupid.

As far as your stupid "sarcastic" remark about your bogus 10 hobbyist
survey, if you had any brains you would have simply said what you
thought instead of making **** up.

It was a jab at your asinine illogic, which you continue defend like a
true idiot.

Leon wrote:
On 9/21/2015 4:59 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 9/21/2015 11:04 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Huh - imagine that. I don't ever recall seeing him using or even
advocating
Festool - but that could easily have been something I missed. It just
always seemed to me that he used the more common tools.

My favorite contractor, that Silva lad ...
Have seen him use Festool on a number of shows.
But mostly DeWalt, who, IIRC, is/was a sponsor.

Might also be that their audience is pretty much the DYI crowd, and
using tools that might be out of reach of the average DIY'er might not
be wise for gaining sponsorships.


That is probably the correct assumption.

I just watched Scott Phillips on PBS's "Create" show.
He used no less than 4 or 5 Festools, and plenty of Kreg tools too to
build a 2-doored cabinet with a finial. I thought it strange that he
used a (dark) Walnut finial on a light Maple "top" (I apologize for not
knowing what the top part that holds a finial is called!)

Well, that's your "Festool sighting" for the day!

Bill

On Wednesday, September 23, 2015 at 10:13:29 AM UTC-5, Bill wrote:

I just watched Scott Phillips on PBS's "Create" show.
He used no less than 4 or 5 Festools, and plenty of Kreg tools too to
build a 2-doored cabinet with a finial. I thought it strange that he
used a (dark) Walnut finial on a light Maple "top" (I apologize for not
knowing what the top part that holds a finial is called!)

I'm not sure, either.

I refer to the tops of my cabinets as the Crown or cornices, if they have a separate unit aspect, from the carcass.

A flat (or basic?) topped cabinet (with no upper unit aspect), the flat being part of the carcass, has no definitive or separate name, for me. I doubt I would place a finial on a flat topped cabinet.

There are other architectural aspects of furniture toppings, like capitals, the ideas taken from older Greek & Roman column forms, and other forms - vase shapes, .... combinations of features, as well. Sometimes finials are placed on top of these forms, also. The reverse is done, also, where architectural forms and finial-like features are placed/used as feet, on a piece.

Another similar idea, getting away from tops: An oval type of "decorative" center-piece crown, if you cut it in half and flip it upside down, the two halves become "decorative" corbels.

Sonny

Sonny wrote:
On Wednesday, September 23, 2015 at 10:13:29 AM UTC-5, Bill wrote:

I just watched Scott Phillips on PBS's "Create" show.
He used no less than 4 or 5 Festools, and plenty of Kreg tools too to
build a 2-doored cabinet with a finial. I thought it strange that he
used a (dark) Walnut finial on a light Maple "top" (I apologize for not
knowing what the top part that holds a finial is called!)
I'm not sure, either.

I refer to the tops of my cabinets as the Crown or cornices, if they have a separate unit aspect, from the carcass.

A flat (or basic?) topped cabinet (with no upper unit aspect), the flat being part of the carcass, has no definitive or separate name, for me. I doubt I would place a finial on a flat topped cabinet.

There are other architectural aspects of furniture toppings, like capitals, the ideas taken from older Greek & Roman column forms, and other forms - vase shapes, .... combinations of features, as well. Sometimes finials are placed on top of these forms, also. The reverse is done, also, where architectural forms and finial-like features are placed/used as feet, on a piece.

Another similar idea, getting away from tops: An oval type of "decorative" center-piece crown, if you cut it in half and flip it upside down, the two halves become "decorative" corbels.

Sonny

I invested about 10 minutes in getting to the bottom of this. At least
according to one diagram I found, which is more or less backed up by
dictionary.com, what I referred to as a "top" is called a "pediment". I
know there is no excuse for my sloppiness about such things.

By the way, regarding the TV show I mentioned in my earlier post,
besides Festool and Kreg, the brand of some carbide turning tools were
also mentioned by name. Festool was not mentioned, except referring to
the quality of the dust collection. I wonder who sponsored the show?

I know one person from the Internet, who, curious about woodworking,
went to a woodworking store in GA and spent about $500 (more or less) on
a Festool jigsaw, as a "first tool". It was clear that the salesman sold
him on its quality. Two months later, his interest was gone. I'm not
asserting anything, it's just a story. If I didn't already have a
decent jigsaw, I might inquire about it! ; )

Bill

On 9/22/2015 6:18 PM, Markem wrote:
On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 16:38:48 -0400, Jack wrote:

No what is predictable is your continuing expressing your views on
Festool and that it will degrade. Now I have seen your view point
several times and we all know were you stand.

Yes, my views on Festools are clear and consistent. I doubt my view
will "degrade" whatever that means. Do you think over time I'll begin
to think Festool should raise their prices as they are too low? What
exactly do you mean by degrading view?

As far as continuing expressing my view, do you think I shouldn't
express my views, like only a chosen few have a right to express their
views?

The discussion degrades, if you need to be redundant in expressing
yourself go for it.

You said that already. Makes no more sense the second time.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 9/22/2015 9:39 PM, krw wrote:
On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 17:04:54 -0400, Jack wrote:

On 9/21/2015 9:37 PM, krw wrote:

Good Lord, you're stupid. You came to the conclusion, with your
sample of ten tradesmen, that professionals didn't use Festools. I
was demonstrating just how goofy your logic is.

Good lord you're stupid. I came to that conclusion when I never once
saw professionals in real life using Festools. I asked a small sample
of professionals, not hobbyist, and 100% of them did not use any
Festools, concurring with what I noticed. I asked them because I
realized I don't spend my life cruising job sites looking for Festools.
The result surprised even me. Turns out I'm not the only one that
noticed this.

With a sample of 10 you jumped to an asinine conclusion. I see you're
dumb enough to double-down, even after your illogic has been pointed
out to you (even to the point of explaining the punch line).

Pointed out by you, and you are an idiot. The observation was mine,
backed up by the tradesman I talked to, backed up by what nailshooter
also observed, and now, backed up by Festools #1 spokesman, Leon. He
"guessed" I would have to interview 200 tradesman to find one that uses
Festools. My guess would be 1 out of 100, but who knows, certainly not
you, a true idiot.

That doesn't mean no professional on earth uses Festools, or that
Festools are trash. I never said either of those things, and in fact,
said exactly the opposite, and explained why I thought this was. Turns
out Nailshooter not only noticed the same thing, but also had the exact
same thoughts on why.

Dang! You're stupid.

As far as your stupid "sarcastic" remark about your bogus 10 hobbyist
survey, if you had any brains you would have simply said what you
thought instead of making **** up.

It was a jab at your asinine illogic, which you continue defend like a
true idiot.

If you say so, I guess it must be... Idiot!

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 9/23/2015 11:12 AM, Bill wrote:

I just watched Scott Phillips on PBS's "Create" show.
He used no less than 4 or 5 Festools, and plenty of Kreg tools too to
build a 2-doored cabinet with a finial. I thought it strange that he
used a (dark) Walnut finial on a light Maple "top" (I apologize for not
knowing what the top part that holds a finial is called!)

Well, that's your "Festool sighting" for the day!

If you noticed, that cabinet pediment was about as ugly, mismatched
design as one could get. Scott Phillips builds crap, and if you are new
at woodworking, you should stay far, far away from his shows because he
does more things wrong than right. If I were Festool, I think I'd
attempt to forbid him from using my tools on TV. Same with Kreg.

I think Festool should hire Leon and fire Scott, at least their tools
would be used correctly and people might learn the right way to do things.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 9/24/2015 10:58 AM, Bill wrote:

I know one person from the Internet, who, curious about woodworking,
went to a woodworking store in GA and spent about $500 (more or less) on
a Festool jigsaw, as a "first tool". It was clear that the salesman sold
him on its quality. Two months later, his interest was gone. I'm not
asserting anything, it's just a story. If I didn't already have a
decent jigsaw, I might inquire about it! ; )

That story certainly doesn't assert Festools are not quality tools. It
could be an example of people with no skills thinking they can magically
gain skills by buying the most expensive tools they can find. They
usually loose interest after they learn there is a bit more to it than
buying good tools.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 9/25/2015 9:15 AM, Jack wrote:
On 9/23/2015 11:12 AM, Bill wrote:

I just watched Scott Phillips on PBS's "Create" show.
He used no less than 4 or 5 Festools, and plenty of Kreg tools too to
build a 2-doored cabinet with a finial. I thought it strange that he
used a (dark) Walnut finial on a light Maple "top" (I apologize for not
knowing what the top part that holds a finial is called!)

Well, that's your "Festool sighting" for the day!

If you noticed, that cabinet pediment was about as ugly, mismatched
design as one could get. Scott Phillips builds crap, and if you are new
at woodworking, you should stay far, far away from his shows because he
does more things wrong than right. If I were Festool, I think I'd
attempt to forbid him from using my tools on TV. Same with Kreg.

I think Festool should hire Leon and fire Scott, at least their tools
would be used correctly and people might learn the right way to do things.


;~) He is sort of a putz woodworker, he and that guy that had a show
and insistently called his SCMS a RAS. IIRC he is/was also a spokesman
for Minwax.

Jack wrote:
On 9/24/2015 10:58 AM, Bill wrote:

I know one person from the Internet, who, curious about woodworking,
went to a woodworking store in GA and spent about $500 (more or less) on
a Festool jigsaw, as a "first tool". It was clear that the salesman sold
him on its quality. Two months later, his interest was gone. I'm not
asserting anything, it's just a story. If I didn't already have a
decent jigsaw, I might inquire about it! ; )

That story certainly doesn't assert Festools are not quality tools.
As I said above, it didn't intend to assert anything! : )

It could be an example of people with no skills thinking they can
magically gain skills by buying the most expensive tools they can find.
I consider the store at fault for not helping him understand "what he
really needed" (a few decent books?) I think it's a shame that he
could have got off to a better start at any big block store compared to
any woodworking store that I can think of. $500 would go quite a long
way at Home Depot. $15 on a hand saw, done. Bag of hand clamps, $20, done.
When I was a beginner (I surely still am), I went into Rockler or
Woodcraft and explained that I needed twelve 4' clamps, and they showed
me that they would be $67 a piece, nothing else, no other ideas. I
confessed that was a deal-breaker. More obvious to me later, there are
alternatives.

Bill

They usually loose interest after they learn there is a bit more to
it than buying good tools.

Jack wrote:
On 9/23/2015 11:12 AM, Bill wrote:

I just watched Scott Phillips on PBS's "Create" show.
He used no less than 4 or 5 Festools, and plenty of Kreg tools too to
build a 2-doored cabinet with a finial. I thought it strange that he
used a (dark) Walnut finial on a light Maple "top" (I apologize for not
knowing what the top part that holds a finial is called!)

Well, that's your "Festool sighting" for the day!

If you noticed, that cabinet pediment was about as ugly, mismatched
design as one could get. Scott Phillips builds crap, and if you are
new at woodworking, you should stay far, far away from his shows
because he does more things wrong than right.

Thank you for the heads up. I did think I saw him doing some things
"wrong". The mismatched finial makes me shudder when i think about it.
Maybe I'll try to submit a comment and ask him if it's a new style? And
let him know what "other viewers" like you think too. : )


If I were Festool, I think I'd attempt to forbid him from using my
tools on TV. Same with Kreg.

I think Festool should hire Leon and fire Scott, at least their tools
would be used correctly and people might learn the right way to do
things.
I think that would be great!

Bill

On Fri, 25 Sep 2015 10:06:10 -0400, Jack wrote:

On 9/22/2015 9:39 PM, krw wrote:
On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 17:04:54 -0400, Jack wrote:

On 9/21/2015 9:37 PM, krw wrote:

Good Lord, you're stupid. You came to the conclusion, with your
sample of ten tradesmen, that professionals didn't use Festools. I
was demonstrating just how goofy your logic is.

Good lord you're stupid. I came to that conclusion when I never once
saw professionals in real life using Festools. I asked a small sample
of professionals, not hobbyist, and 100% of them did not use any
Festools, concurring with what I noticed. I asked them because I
realized I don't spend my life cruising job sites looking for Festools.
The result surprised even me. Turns out I'm not the only one that
noticed this.

With a sample of 10 you jumped to an asinine conclusion. I see you're
dumb enough to double-down, even after your illogic has been pointed
out to you (even to the point of explaining the punch line).

Pointed out by you, and you are an idiot.

Only an idiot would make such a statement. Of course I pointed it
out. That *is* what we were talking about, dummy!

he observation was mine,
backed up by the tradesman I talked to, backed up by what nailshooter
also observed, and now, backed up by Festools #1 spokesman, Leon. He
"guessed" I would have to interview 200 tradesman to find one that uses
Festools. My guess would be 1 out of 100, but who knows, certainly not
you, a true idiot.

....backed up by a self-selected sample of 10 (to "prove" a conclusion
you're already made). ...and you call me an idiot.

That doesn't mean no professional on earth uses Festools, or that
Festools are trash. I never said either of those things, and in fact,
said exactly the opposite, and explained why I thought this was. Turns
out Nailshooter not only noticed the same thing, but also had the exact
same thoughts on why.

Dang! You're stupid.

As far as your stupid "sarcastic" remark about your bogus 10 hobbyist
survey, if you had any brains you would have simply said what you
thought instead of making **** up.

It was a jab at your asinine illogic, which you continue defend like a
true idiot.

If you say so, I guess it must be... Idiot!

Yes, and you continue to prove it.

What a shame. A great thread started by a proud craftsman that wanted so share some really great work has completely devolved into a ****ing contest between hard heads about subjects completely unrelated to Sonny's fine table and great work.

You bad asses keep on ****ing...

Robert

On Fri, 25 Sep 2015 09:53:32 -0400, Jack wrote:

On 9/22/2015 6:18 PM, Markem wrote:
On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 16:38:48 -0400, Jack wrote:

No what is predictable is your continuing expressing your views on
Festool and that it will degrade. Now I have seen your view point
several times and we all know were you stand.

Yes, my views on Festools are clear and consistent. I doubt my view
will "degrade" whatever that means. Do you think over time I'll begin
to think Festool should raise their prices as they are too low? What
exactly do you mean by degrading view?

As far as continuing expressing my view, do you think I shouldn't
express my views, like only a chosen few have a right to express their
views?

The discussion degrades, if you need to be redundant in expressing
yourself go for it.

You said that already. Makes no more sense the second time.

Actually it was a correction of your misconception.

On 9/25/2015 12:26 PM, wrote:
What a shame. A great thread started by a proud craftsman that wanted so share some really great work has completely devolved into a ****ing contest between hard heads about subjects completely unrelated to Sonny's fine table and great work.

You bad asses keep on ****ing...

Robert

Wouldn't be quite so bad if folks would just learn to trim quotes,
instead of quoting half a dozen entire posts.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 9/25/2015 12:49 PM, krw wrote:

...backed up by a self-selected sample of 10 (to "prove" a conclusion
you're already made). ...and you call me an idiot.

Idiot.

I observed no one using Festools on work sites. Since I don't spend my
life observing work sites, I asked people who do spend all their work
time at job sites. This added to my observation. Next, another guy that
does spend his workday on job sites, in another part of the country,
also noticed no one using Festools. This also added weight to my
observations.. Next, the number one promoter of Festools on this site,
stated his guess is 1 in 200 professionals use Festools. I don't put
much weight in that, as it is at best an assumption, or guess, but his
opinion is valuable, based on his experience. My guess would be more
like 1 in 50, maybe 1 in 100, but that is only based on a guess. I'm
reasonably certain that there use is much less common that other
quality, yet much cheaper tools.

It was a jab at your asinine illogic, which you continue defend like a
true idiot.

I'm sorry, I guess I should pay more attention to what you, a hobbyist
that can't cut a straight line, and an idiot, has to say on the subject
than my first hand observations along with comments from seasoned
professionals that do this stuff for a living. My bad.

If you say so, I guess it must be... Idiot!

Yes, and you continue to prove it.

Yes, by continuing to discuss this with an idiot. I'll try to button up
and ignore your rambling, senseless, and often caustic babble.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 9/25/2015 10:52 AM, Leon wrote:
On 9/25/2015 9:15 AM, Jack wrote:

I think Festool should hire Leon and fire Scott, at least their tools
would be used correctly and people might learn the right way to do
things.

;~) He is sort of a putz woodworker, he and that guy that had a show
and insistently called his SCMS a RAS. IIRC he is/was also a spokesman
for Minwax.

Yes, he is a putz woodworker. Now he has his wife working with him,
wow, two putzes on one show. They both seem like nice people though,
but I guess being a skilled woodworker isn't what a TV show on woodwork
is all about, at least in this case.

The guy I like is the guy that does the Wood Turning Workshop. His
skill level isn't all that, but he brings some really good guests, and
his personality I like. He doesn't claim to be all knowing and often
takes jabs at his abilities, and has a relaxed presentation. I like that.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 9/25/2015 1:26 PM, wrote:
What a shame. A great thread started by a proud craftsman that wanted so share some really great
work has completely devolved into a ****ing contest between hard heads about subjects completely
unrelated to Sonny's fine table and great work.

You bad asses keep on ****ing...

It's how newsgroups work. Interesting threads evolve into other
interesting threads that evolve into controversial threads that evolve
into ****ing contests that eventually die.

The best thing to do when you lose interest is to ignore the thread and
go to another one that interests you. The worst thing to do is
participate in a thread that no longer interests you.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 9/26/2015 6:24 PM, Swingman wrote:

Wouldn't be quite so bad if folks would just learn to trim quotes,
instead of quoting half a dozen entire posts.

Amen to that. The only time I do it is when someone keeps quoting
unneeded pages, and I'll do it back to them, stupidly thinking it will
show them the light or **** them off. I don't think it does any good,
but I'll do it if I'm in a grumpy enough mood.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com