On 9/18/2015 5:42 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:

Leon:
If you buy a TS75 track saw with 75" rail and add the connectors and a
55" rail you are going to pay $750 for the saw, $36 for the connectors
and $129 for the 55" rail, total $915.

Oucher!

Paid a couple of hundred less in circa 2009.

But, let's see, $915/7 = $131.71 year or $10.50/month +/-

Just on the saw, and its components alone, I easily save 50+ times that
a month on the expenses that are not easily seen in the grand scheme of
things, but eat at your profit nonetheless - like clean-up costs, and
wear and tear/fuel on trips back to the shop to get a table saw quality
cut, repeatability, and those things that eat up time, like clamping.

That doesn't even take into account how much profit can be made with the
ability to quickly and easily make _repeatable_ quality cuts that can't
be done on a table saw, like angled cuts, and plunge cuts.

The devil is in the details, but so is the profit ...

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On Friday, September 18, 2015 at 5:43:12 PM UTC-5, Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote:


Something to consider, the Festool will produce cabinet saw quality
cuts. Do you need that or the accuracy of straight lines? If only
the accuracy of straight lines Grizzly offers a track saw that might
be the answer and take some sting out it being abused.
But if you want top of the line and quality cuts I highly recommend
the Festool.

But honestly Leon - isn't that more a matter of the blade, than anything
else? How can it be any other factor?

Mike, there is MUCH more to a straight, smooth cutting track saw than just the blade. The blade is very important, but you can get a lot of nearly perfect blades these days just about anywhere. So while you need one, that isn't really an issue.

The key to a perfect cutting track saw is the arbor alignment. The arbor in the saw has to be PERFECTLY perpendicular to the track. That means it must be perfectly perpendicular to the housing on the saw. Then the track must hold the saw at a perfect 90 degrees (with the arbor/blade assembly in alignment) while cutting.

I have used several straight edge systems over the years, and found out that the quality of my long sheet rips diminished over a period of time when using my circular saw. I blamed it on the blade, but still got tooth marks on my rips. Checked the straight edges for true, and rarely found one out of whack. Decided it was the clamps I was using, thought they were slipping. Upgraded clamps... nope.

When one of my circular saws slipped out of my hand and I dropped it on the concrete, I noticed I was having problems cutting. I got out my speed square, and hitting right on the edge of table, the impact bent the table about 1/16" out of true 90 degrees with the blade. A couple of taps and it corrected it some, but started me to thinking.

So I used a brand new saw with an old blade on it to rip some plywood. Worked great. Deduced it was the saw itself as the most important factor.

Later, I used a friend of mine's track saw with my straight edge and his saw cut better using my straight edge than it did with his cheap track saw.

The last time I bought a big circular saw, I bought three of their most powerful and well built Makitas at HD. I took them home, got out my straight edge and tried each of them on the track to see which gave the best cut. Each cut differently, and to Makita's credit two did really well. I kept the best and returned the other two. Now, no one TOUCHES that saw but me, so it is never out of alignment.

That being said, it is only a near cousin to Karl's Festool system. I saw that a few years ago (and a couple of mods he made to it) and he showed me the quality of the cuts he was making. Yes, from time to time I can do that same quality with my Makita setup. But... Karl and Leon can setup in less than half the time, and make that same quality of cut EVERY time. I mean every single one. I am a "site" carpenter/woodworker, and I knew after seeing the Festool and its end product, that was a tool they make that is worth every penny. Most table saws don't give that kind of quality, flawless cut. And the ease of setup... wow. I think of all the time I have to use to get my setup just right, and it is OK for me now because I don't do the same type of work that Karl and Leon do. However, if I was making cabinets and fixtures, that would be the first tool I bought, and the Domino second..

Not all that cranked up about their drills, shop vacs, coffee cups and caps, but hey... different strokes for different folks.

Robert

On Saturday, September 19, 2015 at 1:17:37 PM UTC-5, wrote:


... there is MUCH more to a straight, smooth cutting track saw than just the blade.

The key to a perfect cutting track saw is the arbor alignment.

.... the impact bent the table about 1/16" out of true 90 degrees with the blade.

My 2 relatively new ($200+ each, Makita 5007F & Bosch CS20) circular saws are both out of alignment (2-3, maybe 5 degrees), as Robert describes, and this misalignment started shortly after I bought them.

For some of my rough stuff, alignment doesn't matter a great deal, but it does matter with 75% of my cutting. I hate having to try to readjust the alignment. Lasts for a little while, maybe(!!) a couple of weeks, then it's out of whack, again.

I haven't abused the saws, either, so it didn't take much for them to become misaligned. I would have thought these saws would have been much sturdier, much better in not misaligning themselves, so readily.

My 30 yr old Craftsman (Which finally burned up) and an old Skil, which these new saws replaced, surely didn't have this issue. Frankly, I had never had an issue, as this, so when it showed with the new saws (heavy duty, expensive, surely top of the line), I had no idea what was going on. I had assumed the saws had a factory defect, of some kind.

The Bosch is so unreliable, I don't think I've tried using it in over 2 years.

Sonny

Swingman wrote:


Paid a couple of hundred less in circa 2009.

But, let's see, $915/7 = $131.71 year or $10.50/month +/-

Just on the saw, and its components alone, I easily save 50+ times
that a month on the expenses that are not easily seen in the grand
scheme of things, but eat at your profit nonetheless - like clean-up
costs, and wear and tear/fuel on trips back to the shop to get a
table saw quality cut, repeatability, and those things that eat up
time, like clamping.
That doesn't even take into account how much profit can be made with
the ability to quickly and easily make _repeatable_ quality cuts that
can't be done on a table saw, like angled cuts, and plunge cuts.

The devil is in the details, but so is the profit ...

I don't argue with either you or Leon as it relates to your convictions
about Festool. It is indeed a matter of how you measure and how you see the
costs and the benefits. Like I've said a lot of times - just not
justifiable for me, with the kind of work I do and the amount of work I do.

--

-Mike-

wrote:


Mike, there is MUCH more to a straight, smooth cutting track saw than
just the blade. The blade is very important, but you can get a lot
of nearly perfect blades these days just about anywhere. So while
you need one, that isn't really an issue.

The key to a perfect cutting track saw is the arbor alignment. The
arbor in the saw has to be PERFECTLY perpendicular to the track.
That means it must be perfectly perpendicular to the housing on the
saw. Then the track must hold the saw at a perfect 90 degrees (with
the arbor/blade assembly in alignment) while cutting.


Good stuff Robert. Leon had also replied in a similar vein of thought. As
I said to him - I just had never considered this factor. Now that it's been
brought up - it makes all the sense in the world. I guess that's in part
due to the fact that we think of a circular saw as a rough carpentry tool,
and as such we don't worry about that stuff. Now - introduce that saw to a
more precise world, and new issues come to light. Quite interesting
stuff...

--

-Mike-

On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 23:10:02 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 9/18/2015 7:18 PM, krw wrote:
On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 14:25:33 -0700 (PDT), Sonny
wrote:

On Thursday, September 17, 2015 at 4:28:12 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

I remember that, mostly because Festool does not charge $1000 for
that saw. The bigger corded one is $750.00 including a 75" track
and systainer case. Bought separately the 75" track is $200 and
the case is north of $70.

I find that when someone exaggerates the price this is not all
that is suspect about their comments.

Either way it is a fine saw and system. With its quality of cut
it very well could replace or put off the need to buy a quality
TS for cutting.

Ya know, the more you guys speak of, not just Festool, but their
track saw, the more I think I'd benefit with one. Aside, I
suppose I've made my share of snide remarks, jokingly, relating to
Festool.

You'll kick yourself for holding out this long. Be prepared to buy
at least another rail and couplers. ;-)

I've thrown my share of Festool barbs at Leon myself. ;-)

Yeah but now you are under the "Spell". LOL

I bought my TS55 about five years ago (and the OF1400 a few weeks
after that). That doesn't keep me from tweaking you from time to time
about your Festool commercials, though. ;-)

On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 10:06:09 -0500, Swingman wrote:

On 9/19/2015 8:10 AM, Jack wrote:

Rockler sells them though.


Rockler hasn't sold Festool in a couple of years ...

WoodCraft does.

....and Highland carries everything Festool makes. ;-)

On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 09:28:59 -0400, Jack wrote:

On 9/18/2015 2:17 PM, krw wrote:
On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 11:58:13 -0400, Jack wrote:

Some, particularly hobbyists, don't mind paying $650 for a shop vac,
and in fact, many insist on having the most expensive product made.
Festool, imo, is aiming directly at that market, and the fact Festool
doesn't allow their stuff to be discounted by the retailer fits that
model.

Your opinion is wrong, of course.

Of course, because you say so right?

You've been told why but would rather stick with your delusions.

I actually took the time to ask a
bunch of people in the business, and not one, not ONE used Festools.

And you know at least two here who do.

Some didn't even know what they were, and it's what they do for a
living. Others simple said they are far too expensive. For a closer
view, here is what one of our own (nailshooter) just said:

"Agreeing with you Karl, finding he exact fit of
price/utility/performance is the real key to what a tool is worth.
Excepting you and Leon whom I know both use your Festool(s)extensively
and constantly, _I know of no one else that does._"

I may have a few Festools but it's not because they're expensive. Most users are *not* hobbyists.

And what exactly is your profession, or are you a hobbyist?

Yes, if you'd read this thread you would have known that.


Since you've never used Festools, your opinion isn't worth more than
the hot air it is. The fact is that you're wrong.

I've been using tools my entire life, been woodworking for going on 60
years. I know good tools, junk tools, and overpriced tools. Why is it
only Festool owners get their panties in a bunch when someone doesn't
get on their knees at the mention of their beloved Festool? If you
don't trust my answer, you could email Festool marketing dept, I'm sure
they could tell you.

So you admit that you're talking through your ass WRT Festool. OK, we
got it.

In article ,
says...

On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 09:28:59 -0400, Jack wrote:

On 9/18/2015 2:17 PM, krw wrote:
On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 11:58:13 -0400, Jack wrote:

Some, particularly hobbyists, don't mind paying $650 for a shop vac,
and in fact, many insist on having the most expensive product made.
Festool, imo, is aiming directly at that market, and the fact Festool
doesn't allow their stuff to be discounted by the retailer fits that
model.

Your opinion is wrong, of course.

Of course, because you say so right?

You've been told why but would rather stick with your delusions.

I actually took the time to ask a
bunch of people in the business, and not one, not ONE used Festools.

And you know at least two here who do.

Some didn't even know what they were, and it's what they do for a
living. Others simple said they are far too expensive. For a closer
view, here is what one of our own (nailshooter) just said:

"Agreeing with you Karl, finding he exact fit of
price/utility/performance is the real key to what a tool is worth.
Excepting you and Leon whom I know both use your Festool(s)extensively
and constantly, _I know of no one else that does._"

I may have a few Festools but it's not because they're expensive. Most users are *not* hobbyists.

And what exactly is your profession, or are you a hobbyist?

Yes, if you'd read this thread you would have known that.

A reponse worthy of any Presidential candidate. (Note that that is not
praise)

Since you've never used Festools, your opinion isn't worth more than
the hot air it is. The fact is that you're wrong.

I've been using tools my entire life, been woodworking for going on 60
years. I know good tools, junk tools, and overpriced tools. Why is it
only Festool owners get their panties in a bunch when someone doesn't
get on their knees at the mention of their beloved Festool? If you
don't trust my answer, you could email Festool marketing dept, I'm sure
they could tell you.

So you admit that you're talking through your ass WRT Festool. OK, we
got it.

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 06:06:55 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 09:28:59 -0400, Jack wrote:

On 9/18/2015 2:17 PM, krw wrote:
On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 11:58:13 -0400, Jack wrote:

Some, particularly hobbyists, don't mind paying $650 for a shop vac,
and in fact, many insist on having the most expensive product made.
Festool, imo, is aiming directly at that market, and the fact Festool
doesn't allow their stuff to be discounted by the retailer fits that
model.

Your opinion is wrong, of course.

Of course, because you say so right?

You've been told why but would rather stick with your delusions.

I actually took the time to ask a
bunch of people in the business, and not one, not ONE used Festools.

And you know at least two here who do.

Some didn't even know what they were, and it's what they do for a
living. Others simple said they are far too expensive. For a closer
view, here is what one of our own (nailshooter) just said:

"Agreeing with you Karl, finding he exact fit of
price/utility/performance is the real key to what a tool is worth.
Excepting you and Leon whom I know both use your Festool(s)extensively
and constantly, _I know of no one else that does._"

I may have a few Festools but it's not because they're expensive. Most users are *not* hobbyists.

And what exactly is your profession, or are you a hobbyist?

Yes, if you'd read this thread you would have known that.

A reponse worthy of any Presidential candidate. (Note that that is not
praise)

Are you really dumb enough to believe that Presidential candidates
tell us the facts?

Since you've never used Festools, your opinion isn't worth more than
the hot air it is. The fact is that you're wrong.

I've been using tools my entire life, been woodworking for going on 60
years. I know good tools, junk tools, and overpriced tools. Why is it
only Festool owners get their panties in a bunch when someone doesn't
get on their knees at the mention of their beloved Festool? If you
don't trust my answer, you could email Festool marketing dept, I'm sure
they could tell you.

So you admit that you're talking through your ass WRT Festool. OK, we
got it.

Jack wrote:
On 9/18/2015 2:04 PM, Leon wrote:
On 9/18/2015 10:58 AM, Jack wrote:
On 9/17/2015 9:36 PM, krw wrote:
On Thu, 17 Sep 2015 11:15:04 -0400, Jack wrote:

It's not that their stuff isn't good, it certainly _should_ be, but,
again, imo, the difference between a quality saw, vacuum, drill and the
price Festool charges is insane. Tradesmen generally don't buy festool
stuff either, not because it's not quality, but because it costs too
much, and they can get more bang for the buck with good quality stuff
that costs considerably less, particularly if they are not the only guy
using the tools.

AAMOF tradesmen were using Festool long long before Festool became known
to the general hobbyist such as yourself.

I'm sure, but I've never seen them used on a job site, and I asked around
once at a local club with around 10 professional tradesman, all in the
business for many years, and not one of them owned or used any festools,
supporting my view not many tradesman use Festools, choosing to use
cheaper, high quality tools.

Well you simply have not been to the right job site. I have never seen a
Porter Cable circular saw, Milwaukee router, Makita plate joiner, Bosch
circular saw, or a Harbor Freight drill used on a job site either. That
does not mean that they are not there. If a tree falls in the middle of
the woods and nothing hears it, did it make a sound? Yes.
The fact that you or I have not witnessed something does not mean squat.

I have worked on many job sites and ben on many. For the ones that I have
worked on, I was not the only one using his own Festool tools.



I suspect most Festool users are general hobbyists, with oil wells in
their back yard, like yourself. "Look at me ma, I'm using a Festool,
y'all know what this thing cost?"

I suspect that you are only around mostly hobbyists. We who earn a pay
check with our tools do not make that type of asinine comment. If I were
not designing and selling work and or building and installing kitchens sad
bathrooms I probably would now own ant Festool's either.



I'm sure some professionals, that mostly work alone, own Festools, they
are supposedly top quality, as they should be considering the price. I've
just never met one, or talked to one, or walked past one. Rockler sells them though.


On this group you have talked to at least two but are too damn stubborn to
admit it.

In article ,
says...

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 06:06:55 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 09:28:59 -0400, Jack wrote:

On 9/18/2015 2:17 PM, krw wrote:
On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 11:58:13 -0400, Jack wrote:

Some, particularly hobbyists, don't mind paying $650 for a shop vac,
and in fact, many insist on having the most expensive product made.
Festool, imo, is aiming directly at that market, and the fact Festool
doesn't allow their stuff to be discounted by the retailer fits that
model.

Your opinion is wrong, of course.

Of course, because you say so right?

You've been told why but would rather stick with your delusions.

I actually took the time to ask a
bunch of people in the business, and not one, not ONE used Festools.

And you know at least two here who do.

Some didn't even know what they were, and it's what they do for a
living. Others simple said they are far too expensive. For a closer
view, here is what one of our own (nailshooter) just said:

"Agreeing with you Karl, finding he exact fit of
price/utility/performance is the real key to what a tool is worth.
Excepting you and Leon whom I know both use your Festool(s)extensively
and constantly, _I know of no one else that does._"

I may have a few Festools but it's not because they're expensive. Most users are *not* hobbyists.

And what exactly is your profession, or are you a hobbyist?

Yes, if you'd read this thread you would have known that.

A reponse worthy of any Presidential candidate. (Note that that is not
praise)

Are you really dumb enough to believe that Presidential candidates
tell us the facts?

Drink your coffee, let it hit, then reread the paragraph to which you
responded and the one before it.

On 9/19/2015 10:49 PM, krw wrote:
On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 23:10:02 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 9/18/2015 7:18 PM, krw wrote:
On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 14:25:33 -0700 (PDT), Sonny
wrote:

On Thursday, September 17, 2015 at 4:28:12 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

I remember that, mostly because Festool does not charge $1000 for
that saw. The bigger corded one is $750.00 including a 75" track
and systainer case. Bought separately the 75" track is $200 and
the case is north of $70.

I find that when someone exaggerates the price this is not all
that is suspect about their comments.

Either way it is a fine saw and system. With its quality of cut
it very well could replace or put off the need to buy a quality
TS for cutting.

Ya know, the more you guys speak of, not just Festool, but their
track saw, the more I think I'd benefit with one. Aside, I
suppose I've made my share of snide remarks, jokingly, relating to
Festool.

You'll kick yourself for holding out this long. Be prepared to buy
at least another rail and couplers. ;-)

I've thrown my share of Festool barbs at Leon myself. ;-)

Yeah but now you are under the "Spell". LOL

I bought my TS55 about five years ago (and the OF1400 a few weeks
after that). That doesn't keep me from tweaking you from time to time
about your Festool commercials, though. ;-)



Not a problem. LOL I'll have to say that I had to use a TS75 before I
actually realized what it was capable of doing. The Festool track saw
has been out for many many years, probably going back to the 50's~60's
IIRC. I think that we get so used to a mediocre standard that when
something comes along that is that much better that we tend to not
believe that better can be had because my such and such brand what ever
is sooooo good they surely also build the best possible what ever.

On 9/19/2015 1:52 AM, Electric Comet wrote:
On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 09:58:51 -0500
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

although for the past 8 years we have been using a Roomba vac. It

Be careful with that around dogs

http://www.craigslist.org/about/best...112700681.html



Yeah, that thought has crossed my mind more than once. We have a Great
Dane.

On 9/19/2015 7:16 AM, Jack wrote:
On 9/18/2015 10:33 AM, Leon wrote:

My wife bought me a broom for about $25. The last one lasted me 20
years. I could buy 4 of them for the cost of one Ridged, that would be
4 times 20 years. Longer than I would live.

Her broom doesn't suck as hard as my Ridgid vacuum, and it's hoses don't
fit it either.

If you like the tools you buy fine. Don't knock something you know
little about. I don't really understand your obsession with trashing
Festool.

I like some, don't like others. I don't obsess about any of them.

I also don't trash Festools, I never once said they are trash. I don't
even mind that they cost more than other tools, it's a marketing scheme
that works well for them.


Huh... I think you could have fooled all of us on that.

AFFA marketing scheme goes, every single item that is sold has had some
consideration and a marketing scheme to determine a selling price.
Big deal.

On 9/19/2015 10:52 PM, krw wrote:
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 10:06:09 -0500, Swingman wrote:

On 9/19/2015 8:10 AM, Jack wrote:

Rockler sells them though.


Rockler hasn't sold Festool in a couple of years ...

WoodCraft does.

...and Highland carries everything Festool makes. ;-)


And Festool can be had from countless places on the internet. Because
of their pricing policy you don't have to worry that you might be paying
more a Festool tool than anywhere else. Regardless of where you buy,
you are getting the best price possible.
BUT I prefer to buy locally if possible.

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 09:34:32 -0500, Leon wrote:

Jack wrote:
On 9/18/2015 2:04 PM, Leon wrote:
On 9/18/2015 10:58 AM, Jack wrote:
On 9/17/2015 9:36 PM, krw wrote:
On Thu, 17 Sep 2015 11:15:04 -0400, Jack wrote:

It's not that their stuff isn't good, it certainly _should_ be, but,
again, imo, the difference between a quality saw, vacuum, drill and the
price Festool charges is insane. Tradesmen generally don't buy festool
stuff either, not because it's not quality, but because it costs too
much, and they can get more bang for the buck with good quality stuff
that costs considerably less, particularly if they are not the only guy
using the tools.

AAMOF tradesmen were using Festool long long before Festool became known
to the general hobbyist such as yourself.

I'm sure, but I've never seen them used on a job site, and I asked around
once at a local club with around 10 professional tradesman, all in the
business for many years, and not one of them owned or used any festools,
supporting my view not many tradesman use Festools, choosing to use
cheaper, high quality tools.

Well you simply have not been to the right job site. I have never seen a
Porter Cable circular saw, Milwaukee router, Makita plate joiner, Bosch
circular saw, or a Harbor Freight drill used on a job site either. That
does not mean that they are not there. If a tree falls in the middle of
the woods and nothing hears it, did it make a sound? Yes.
The fact that you or I have not witnessed something does not mean squat.

I talked with ten hobbyists, too, and none of them used Festools. It
seems that no one uses them.

I have worked on many job sites and ben on many. For the ones that I have
worked on, I was not the only one using his own Festool tools.



I suspect most Festool users are general hobbyists, with oil wells in
their back yard, like yourself. "Look at me ma, I'm using a Festool,
y'all know what this thing cost?"

I suspect that you are only around mostly hobbyists. We who earn a pay
check with our tools do not make that type of asinine comment. If I were
not designing and selling work and or building and installing kitchens sad
bathrooms I probably would now own ant Festool's either.



I'm sure some professionals, that mostly work alone, own Festools, they
are supposedly top quality, as they should be considering the price. I've
just never met one, or talked to one, or walked past one. Rockler sells them though.


On this group you have talked to at least two but are too damn stubborn to
admit it.

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 10:48:11 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 06:06:55 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 09:28:59 -0400, Jack wrote:

On 9/18/2015 2:17 PM, krw wrote:
On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 11:58:13 -0400, Jack wrote:

Some, particularly hobbyists, don't mind paying $650 for a shop vac,
and in fact, many insist on having the most expensive product made.
Festool, imo, is aiming directly at that market, and the fact Festool
doesn't allow their stuff to be discounted by the retailer fits that
model.

Your opinion is wrong, of course.

Of course, because you say so right?

You've been told why but would rather stick with your delusions.

I actually took the time to ask a
bunch of people in the business, and not one, not ONE used Festools.

And you know at least two here who do.

Some didn't even know what they were, and it's what they do for a
living. Others simple said they are far too expensive. For a closer
view, here is what one of our own (nailshooter) just said:

"Agreeing with you Karl, finding he exact fit of
price/utility/performance is the real key to what a tool is worth.
Excepting you and Leon whom I know both use your Festool(s)extensively
and constantly, _I know of no one else that does._"

I may have a few Festools but it's not because they're expensive. Most users are *not* hobbyists.

And what exactly is your profession, or are you a hobbyist?

Yes, if you'd read this thread you would have known that.

A reponse worthy of any Presidential candidate. (Note that that is not
praise)

Are you really dumb enough to believe that Presidential candidates
tell us the facts?

Drink your coffee, let it hit, then reread the paragraph to which you
responded and the one before it.

I suggest you do the same, except this time use more brain and less
chip, if you're able.

On 9/20/2015 9:55 AM, Leon wrote:

Yeah, that thought has crossed my mind more than once. We have a Great
Dane.

And a bigger pussy never lived. Had to bring Pandi to the ER late one
night last week ($800 later, and she's fine ... thank gawd for pet
insurance).

Girl behind the counter at the all night facility had her Harlequin GD
with her, younger but almost as big as Mocha.

Another big pussy, so scared of 9lb Pandi, as sick as she was, that we
had to go sit in another room.

I'm tempted to get a roomba just to see the reaction around here.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

In article ,
says...

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 10:48:11 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 06:06:55 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 09:28:59 -0400, Jack wrote:

On 9/18/2015 2:17 PM, krw wrote:
On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 11:58:13 -0400, Jack wrote:

Some, particularly hobbyists, don't mind paying $650 for a shop vac,
and in fact, many insist on having the most expensive product made.
Festool, imo, is aiming directly at that market, and the fact Festool
doesn't allow their stuff to be discounted by the retailer fits that
model.

Your opinion is wrong, of course.

Of course, because you say so right?

You've been told why but would rather stick with your delusions.

I actually took the time to ask a
bunch of people in the business, and not one, not ONE used Festools.

And you know at least two here who do.

Some didn't even know what they were, and it's what they do for a
living. Others simple said they are far too expensive. For a closer
view, here is what one of our own (nailshooter) just said:

"Agreeing with you Karl, finding he exact fit of
price/utility/performance is the real key to what a tool is worth.
Excepting you and Leon whom I know both use your Festool(s)extensively
and constantly, _I know of no one else that does._"

I may have a few Festools but it's not because they're expensive. Most users are *not* hobbyists.

And what exactly is your profession, or are you a hobbyist?

Yes, if you'd read this thread you would have known that.

A reponse worthy of any Presidential candidate. (Note that that is not
praise)

Are you really dumb enough to believe that Presidential candidates
tell us the facts?

Drink your coffee, let it hit, then reread the paragraph to which you
responded and the one before it.

I suggest you do the same, except this time use more brain and less
chip, if you're able.

plonk

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 10:06:08 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 9/19/2015 10:52 PM, krw wrote:
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 10:06:09 -0500, Swingman wrote:

On 9/19/2015 8:10 AM, Jack wrote:

Rockler sells them though.


Rockler hasn't sold Festool in a couple of years ...

WoodCraft does.

...and Highland carries everything Festool makes. ;-)


And Festool can be had from countless places on the internet.

You can't touch and feel over the Internet.

Because
of their pricing policy you don't have to worry that you might be paying
more a Festool tool than anywhere else. Regardless of where you buy,
you are getting the best price possible.
BUT I prefer to buy locally if possible.

Highland is local. ;-)

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 11:27:50 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 10:48:11 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 06:06:55 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 09:28:59 -0400, Jack wrote:

On 9/18/2015 2:17 PM, krw wrote:
On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 11:58:13 -0400, Jack wrote:

Some, particularly hobbyists, don't mind paying $650 for a shop vac,
and in fact, many insist on having the most expensive product made.
Festool, imo, is aiming directly at that market, and the fact Festool
doesn't allow their stuff to be discounted by the retailer fits that
model.

Your opinion is wrong, of course.

Of course, because you say so right?

You've been told why but would rather stick with your delusions.

I actually took the time to ask a
bunch of people in the business, and not one, not ONE used Festools.

And you know at least two here who do.

Some didn't even know what they were, and it's what they do for a
living. Others simple said they are far too expensive. For a closer
view, here is what one of our own (nailshooter) just said:

"Agreeing with you Karl, finding he exact fit of
price/utility/performance is the real key to what a tool is worth.
Excepting you and Leon whom I know both use your Festool(s)extensively
and constantly, _I know of no one else that does._"

I may have a few Festools but it's not because they're expensive. Most users are *not* hobbyists.

And what exactly is your profession, or are you a hobbyist?

Yes, if you'd read this thread you would have known that.

A reponse worthy of any Presidential candidate. (Note that that is not
praise)

Are you really dumb enough to believe that Presidential candidates
tell us the facts?

Drink your coffee, let it hit, then reread the paragraph to which you
responded and the one before it.

I suggest you do the same, except this time use more brain and less
chip, if you're able.

plonk

As I suspected, you're not.

On 9/20/2015 10:20 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 9/20/2015 9:55 AM, Leon wrote:

Yeah, that thought has crossed my mind more than once. We have a Great
Dane.

And a bigger pussy never lived.

Hey!


Had to bring Pandi to the ER late one
night last week ($800 later, and she's fine ... thank gawd for pet
insurance).

$800 with insurance??? What was wrong with her?



Girl behind the counter at the all night facility had her Harlequin GD
with her, younger but almost as big as Mocha.

Another big pussy, so scared of 9lb Pandi, as sick as she was, that we
had to go sit in another room.

I'm tempted to get a roomba just to see the reaction around here.

;!)

There is a new Roomba. It maps the room rather than run randomly for 30
minutes per section, it vacuums like you would cut your yard. I'm not
sure if that is better or not. Although it might finish faster.


And it will go back to the charging station to recharge and go back out
if it is not finished. Ours spends any where from 90 to 170 minutes to
vacuum the house 5 days a week. If the newer version could do this in
half the time by eliminating redundant coverage that would be better.

The much less expensive Neato brand robot vacs use this maping and
recharging set up but you have to use magnetic strips as barriers to
keep the robot out of off limits areas. Roomba uses IR light houses to
retain or let the robot pass on.

On 9/20/2015 10:44 AM, krw wrote:
On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 10:06:08 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 9/19/2015 10:52 PM, krw wrote:
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 10:06:09 -0500, Swingman wrote:

On 9/19/2015 8:10 AM, Jack wrote:

Rockler sells them though.


Rockler hasn't sold Festool in a couple of years ...

WoodCraft does.

...and Highland carries everything Festool makes. ;-)


And Festool can be had from countless places on the internet.

You can't touch and feel over the Internet.

That is absolutely true but if you live hundreds od miles from the
closest brick and mortar, OR if your local supplier is out of a part,
the internet is very handy. Most all on line suppliers do not charge
for shipping on Festool, at least on the machines.





Because
of their pricing policy you don't have to worry that you might be paying
more a Festool tool than anywhere else. Regardless of where you buy,
you are getting the best price possible.
BUT I prefer to buy locally if possible.

Highland is local. ;-)

Luck you! ;~)

We have two Woodcraft stores and Circle Saw. Circle Saw is aimed mostly
at the pro's.

On 9/20/2015 10:45 AM, krw wrote:
On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 11:27:50 -0400, "J. Clarke"


plonk

As I suspected, you're not.



You win, he blinked first. ;~)

On 9/20/2015 3:20 PM, Leon wrote:

$800 with insurance??? What was wrong with her?

Pet insurance paid $560 of that ...

Most of that was finding out what she didn't have, pancreatitis, bowel
obstruction, etc. Symptoms came on in the space of 20 minutes - tremors,
heavy panting, and yelped when you tried to pick her up.

Never did get a definitive answer, but it took a couple of days for her
to get back to normal.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 15:24:43 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 9/20/2015 10:44 AM, krw wrote:
On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 10:06:08 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 9/19/2015 10:52 PM, krw wrote:
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 10:06:09 -0500, Swingman wrote:

On 9/19/2015 8:10 AM, Jack wrote:

Rockler sells them though.


Rockler hasn't sold Festool in a couple of years ...

WoodCraft does.

...and Highland carries everything Festool makes. ;-)


And Festool can be had from countless places on the internet.

You can't touch and feel over the Internet.

That is absolutely true but if you live hundreds od miles from the
closest brick and mortar, OR if your local supplier is out of a part,
the internet is very handy. Most all on line suppliers do not charge
for shipping on Festool, at least on the machines.





Because
of their pricing policy you don't have to worry that you might be paying
more a Festool tool than anywhere else. Regardless of where you buy,
you are getting the best price possible.
BUT I prefer to buy locally if possible.

Highland is local. ;-)

Luck you! ;~)

We have two Woodcraft stores and Circle Saw. Circle Saw is aimed mostly
at the pro's.

Not only is Highland local but there is also Woodcraft, Rockler, and
PeachTree, here. They're not all that close to where we live (the
other side of the city - 30 miles, give or take) but we're in the area
every six weeks, or whenever I need a fix. ;-)

Of course Highland and PeachTree are company owned stores but so is
Woodcraft, now, and I think Rockler may be too. They just opened a
huge new store that's stocked to the gills.

I was talking to one of the salespeople at Woodcraft a few weeks ago.
He indicated that they're considering a second store on this side of
the city.

On Sunday, September 20, 2015 at 5:08:40 PM UTC-5, Swingman wrote:

Most of that was finding out what she didn't have, pancreatitis, bowel
obstruction, etc. Symptoms came on in the space of 20 minutes - tremors,
heavy panting, and yelped when you tried to pick her up.

Never did get a definitive answer, but it took a couple of days for her
to get back to normal.

Wow... glad she's OK. Sick pets can be nearly as traumatic as having any other family in that position.

Having seen her in action, I can imagine her backing down a big dog pretty easily!

Robert

On 9/20/2015 5:58 PM, krw wrote:
On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 15:24:43 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 9/20/2015 10:44 AM, krw wrote:
On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 10:06:08 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 9/19/2015 10:52 PM, krw wrote:
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 10:06:09 -0500, Swingman wrote:

On 9/19/2015 8:10 AM, Jack wrote:

Rockler sells them though.


Rockler hasn't sold Festool in a couple of years ...

WoodCraft does.

...and Highland carries everything Festool makes. ;-)


And Festool can be had from countless places on the internet.

You can't touch and feel over the Internet.

That is absolutely true but if you live hundreds od miles from the
closest brick and mortar, OR if your local supplier is out of a part,
the internet is very handy. Most all on line suppliers do not charge
for shipping on Festool, at least on the machines.





Because
of their pricing policy you don't have to worry that you might be paying
more a Festool tool than anywhere else. Regardless of where you buy,
you are getting the best price possible.
BUT I prefer to buy locally if possible.

Highland is local. ;-)

Luck you! ;~)

We have two Woodcraft stores and Circle Saw. Circle Saw is aimed mostly
at the pro's.

Not only is Highland local but there is also Woodcraft, Rockler, and
PeachTree, here. They're not all that close to where we live (the
other side of the city - 30 miles, give or take) but we're in the area
every six weeks, or whenever I need a fix. ;-)

We have a Rockler and soon to be two Rocklers but neither carry Festool
anymore.



Of course Highland and PeachTree are company owned stores but so is
Woodcraft, now, and I think Rockler may be too. They just opened a
huge new store that's stocked to the gills.

I was talking to one of the salespeople at Woodcraft a few weeks ago.
He indicated that they're considering a second store on this side of
the city.

On 9/20/2015 5:08 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 9/20/2015 3:20 PM, Leon wrote:

$800 with insurance??? What was wrong with her?

Pet insurance paid $560 of that ...

Most of that was finding out what she didn't have, pancreatitis, bowel
obstruction, etc. Symptoms came on in the space of 20 minutes - tremors,
heavy panting, and yelped when you tried to pick her up.

Never did get a definitive answer, but it took a couple of days for her
to get back to normal.


Sounds like a lack of attention. Is she having to share you with the
new loveseat? ;~_

On Thu, 17 Sep 2015 18:40:18 -0700
"Lew Hodgett" wrote:

Bearings are selected based on cost, not necessarily engineering
parameters.

The higher the volume, the lower the cost. There are more basic
203 ball bearings manufactured that ALL the rest of the ball bearings
combined.

As a result, it is the lowest cost bearing made and often gets applied
in an over engineered applications where a smaller bearing could
be used but it would cost more.

seems a contradiction
using a lowest cost bearing could mean that the product is in fact not
over-engineered and might turn out to be under-engineered


and for a festool it might not be unreasonable to expect a quality bearing

Electric Comet wrote:
On Thu, 17 Sep 2015 18:40:18 -0700
"Lew Hodgett" wrote:

Bearings are selected based on cost, not necessarily engineering
parameters.

The higher the volume, the lower the cost. There are more basic
203 ball bearings manufactured that ALL the rest of the ball bearings
combined.

As a result, it is the lowest cost bearing made and often gets
applied in an over engineered applications where a smaller bearing
could
be used but it would cost more.

seems a contradiction
using a lowest cost bearing could mean that the product is in fact not
over-engineered and might turn out to be under-engineered


Apparently you did not understand the economy of scale that was explained in
the very same post. Oh well...

--

-Mike-

"Mike Marlow" wrote:
wrote:


Mike, there is MUCH more to a straight, smooth cutting track saw than
just the blade. The blade is very important, but you can get a lot
of nearly perfect blades these days just about anywhere. So while
you need one, that isn't really an issue.

The key to a perfect cutting track saw is the arbor alignment. The
arbor in the saw has to be PERFECTLY perpendicular to the track.
That means it must be perfectly perpendicular to the housing on the
saw. Then the track must hold the saw at a perfect 90 degrees (with
the arbor/blade assembly in alignment) while cutting.


Good stuff Robert. Leon had also replied in a similar vein of thought. As
I said to him - I just had never considered this factor. Now that it's been
brought up - it makes all the sense in the world. I guess that's in part
due to the fact that we think of a circular saw as a rough carpentry tool,
and as such we don't worry about that stuff. Now - introduce that saw to a
more precise world, and new issues come to light. Quite interesting
stuff...


Maybe one big difference in the track saws is that attention had been paid
to how they simply on a surface, work surface or track. Regular circular
saws have their blades and guards protruding through the shoe all of the
time. When you set it down they typically sit cocked and sitting on the
edge of the shoe and the guard, if the guard had not been removed. I would
imagine that might lead to mis alignment problems over time depending how
gently it gets set of dropped when put down.

On 9/19/2015 11:55 PM, krw wrote:
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 09:28:59 -0400, Jack wrote:

On 9/18/2015 2:17 PM, krw wrote:
On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 11:58:13 -0400, Jack wrote:

Some, particularly hobbyists, don't mind paying $650 for a shop vac,
and in fact, many insist on having the most expensive product made.
Festool, imo, is aiming directly at that market, and the fact Festool
doesn't allow their stuff to be discounted by the retailer fits that
model.

Your opinion is wrong, of course.

Of course, because you say so right?

You've been told why but would rather stick with your delusions.

I see, my 60 years of experience is just a delusion? My, bad, I'll take
your word for it.

I actually took the time to ask a
bunch of people in the business, and not one, not ONE used Festools.

And you know at least two here who do.

I Never said _no one_ uses Festools, never said they were trash either.
You seem to enjoy making **** up to fit your delusions.

If you think you can suddenly build great stuff because you have
expensive tools, go for it, it's is a delusion that sells plenty of
unneeded, expensive tools to the hobbyist.

BTW, two is the exact number of people I know that use Festool, just as
many as nailshooter knows, and the same two guys. Funny coincidence
huh. Well, Scott Phillips now uses them, and he builds crap, and I
suspect he is getting paid well from the Festool marketing dept. Tommy
Mac also must have had a wad of money dropped on him by Festool. Tommy
Silva should be next on their list. Silva is the only one of those I
respect.

So you admit that you're talking through your ass WRT Festool. OK, we
got it.

True, I've stated many times I assume they are quality tools, but never
using them, I'm just guessing, or as you say, talking out my ass.

I'm not guessing that they sell a shop vac for $650, and that mine does
about everything I want at around 1/6th the price.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 09/21/2015 06:46 AM, Jack wrote:

BTW, two is the exact number of people I know that use Festool, just as
many as nailshooter knows, and the same two guys. Funny coincidence
huh. Well, Scott Phillips now uses them, and he builds crap, and I
suspect he is getting paid well from the Festool marketing dept. Tommy
Mac also must have had a wad of money dropped on him by Festool. Tommy
Silva should be next on their list. Silva is the only one of those I
respect.

Tom Silva has been using Festool for about 10 years. He also paid for
his collection.



--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill

On 9/20/2015 10:34 AM, Leon wrote:
Jack wrote:

I'm sure, but I've never seen them used on a job site, and I asked around
once at a local club with around 10 professional tradesman, all in the
business for many years, and not one of them owned or used any festools,
supporting my view not many tradesman use Festools, choosing to use
cheaper, high quality tools.

Well you simply have not been to the right job site.

True, but then that's why I asked a bunch of guys that spend their
entire working life of job sites what they use, and none, not one, used
Festools, and a surprising number didn't know they existed.

I have never seen a
Porter Cable circular saw, Milwaukee router, Makita plate joiner, Bosch
circular saw, or a Harbor Freight drill used on a job site either. That
does not mean that they are not there.

I've seen all those brand name tools on job sites. Just not Festool.

If a tree falls in the middle of
the woods and nothing hears it, did it make a sound? Yes.
The fact that you or I have not witnessed something does not mean squat.

Very true. That's why I took the time to ask around last time we had
this discussion. Also, I noted that Nailshooter also never saw anyone
other than you and Swing use them. This certainly does not mean no one
uses them, but it means considerably more than squat.

I have worked on many job sites and ben on many. For the ones that I have
worked on, I was not the only one using his own Festool tools.

I believe you. I suspect, based on what I've seen, and what Nailshooter
has seen, and on my small survey, that the sitings are underwhelming.


I suspect most Festool users are general hobbyists, with oil wells in
their back yard, like yourself. "Look at me ma, I'm using a Festool,
y'all know what this thing cost?"

I suspect that you are only around mostly hobbyists.

Well your wrong about that. I'm the only hobbyist I'm around. I am
around lots of people in the trades, just no hobbyists.

We who earn a pay
check with our tools do not make that type of asinine comment. If I were
not designing and selling work and or building and installing kitchens sad
bathrooms I probably would now own ant Festool's either.

I've earned money working with my tools, just that it was never my
primary source of income. The folks I asked earn their living solely
working in the trades.

I'm sure some professionals, that mostly work alone, own Festools, they
are supposedly top quality, as they should be considering the price. I've
just never met one, or talked to one, or walked past one. Rockler sells them though.

On this group you have talked to at least two but are too damn stubborn to
admit it.

Not to get picky, but I never talked to you, or Swing. I know a few on
this group use Festools. The fact, and it is a fact, that I've never
witnessed anyone, other than on TV, using Festools, and 0 "ZERO" percent
of the guys I've personally questioned on the subject use Festools means
more than "squat", at least to me.

I'm not so "stubborn" to think this means NO ONE uses Festools.

I am too "stubborn" to think you need Festools to build quality
furniture, bathrooms, kitchens or even to cut a straight line or suck up
some dust.

Also I'm too "stubborn" to think Festool is the only quality tool out
there, plenty of high quality tools out there at cheaper prices, and
I've seen all of them on job sites, just not Festool.

Rather than "stubborn", I'd prefer to call it experience, but I can live
with stubborn.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 9/18/2015 10:58 AM, Jack wrote:
On 9/17/2015 9:36 PM, krw wrote:

I'm sure, but I've never seen them used on a job site, and I asked around
once at a local club with around 10 professional tradesman, all in the
business for many years, and not one of them owned or used any festools,
supporting my view not many tradesman use Festools, choosing to use
cheaper, high quality tools.

I talked with ten hobbyists, too, and none of them used Festools. It
seems that no one uses them.

You talked with "10 hobbyists too"? Who else talked to "hobbyists"
besides YOU? Are you so dumb you confuse "professional tradesman" with
hobbyists or are you, as I suspect, making **** up to support your goofy
arguments?

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 10:57:36 -0400, Jack wrote:


On 9/18/2015 10:58 AM, Jack wrote:
On 9/17/2015 9:36 PM, krw wrote:

I'm sure, but I've never seen them used on a job site, and I asked around
once at a local club with around 10 professional tradesman, all in the
business for many years, and not one of them owned or used any festools,
supporting my view not many tradesman use Festools, choosing to use
cheaper, high quality tools.

I talked with ten hobbyists, too, and none of them used Festools. It
seems that no one uses them.

You talked with "10 hobbyists too"? Who else talked to "hobbyists"
besides YOU? Are you so dumb you confuse "professional tradesman" with
hobbyists or are you, as I suspect, making **** up to support your goofy
arguments?

You are blowing up at a sarcastic remark, and remaining predictable
Jack.

Doug Winterburn wrote:
On 09/21/2015 06:46 AM, Jack wrote:

BTW, two is the exact number of people I know that use Festool, just
as many as nailshooter knows, and the same two guys. Funny
coincidence huh. Well, Scott Phillips now uses them, and he builds
crap, and I suspect he is getting paid well from the Festool
marketing dept. Tommy Mac also must have had a wad of money dropped
on him by Festool. Tommy Silva should be next on their list. Silva
is the only one of those I respect.

Tom Silva has been using Festool for about 10 years. He also paid for
his collection.

Huh - imagine that. I don't ever recall seeing him using or even advocating
Festool - but that could easily have been something I missed. It just
always seemed to me that he used the more common tools.

--

-Mike-

On 09/21/2015 09:04 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Doug Winterburn wrote:
On 09/21/2015 06:46 AM, Jack wrote:

BTW, two is the exact number of people I know that use Festool, just
as many as nailshooter knows, and the same two guys. Funny
coincidence huh. Well, Scott Phillips now uses them, and he builds
crap, and I suspect he is getting paid well from the Festool
marketing dept. Tommy Mac also must have had a wad of money dropped
on him by Festool. Tommy Silva should be next on their list. Silva
is the only one of those I respect.

Tom Silva has been using Festool for about 10 years. He also paid for
his collection.

Huh - imagine that. I don't ever recall seeing him using or even advocating
Festool - but that could easily have been something I missed. It just
always seemed to me that he used the more common tools.

He does use other colors besides green, possibly because of sponsors.


--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill