"Mike Marlow" wrote in
:

John G wrote:

Well, I have 2 interconnected Tower PCs on my desk. Maxivista allows
one keyboard and mouse and 2 displays.

But the Tablet allows me to watch TV and occasionally look up things
and help with Crosswords and look at mail when it arrives without
being in the study.

So... since I don't use my computers to watch TV (I use my TV's for
that...) I have to ask - is that something that is an improvement over
watching your TV?

I actually do use a computer for watching TV. It automatically searches
the program listings for stuff I've told it to record and does it.
During playback, it automatically skips commercials or lets me pause or
stop and start how I please.

My computer is actually a home-built DVR (running MythTV), which lets ME
have control. Files are stored in a format that can be read by just
about anything (MPEG2) and there's no "corporate overlord" to decide what
I can and can't record or keep.

It is certainly not a replacement for a PC or Laptop but it starts
almost instantly and is just easier for the casual times.

The "starts almost instantly" thing is one thing that I see as
valuable. I do get impatient sometimes, waiting for my laptop to boot
up. I guess I just don't get impatient often enough for that to be a
big deal for me. My laptop is on almost all of the time. I seldom
have to boot it (except for the Windows things that can only be
resolved by a re-boot...), so I guess I don't often realize a value in
a quick boot time. I just close it, pack it and open it when I get
where I'm going. Time to work is very short and I suppose I never
consdered it to be onerous.


I leave my laptop in sleep mode, so it usually comes up pretty quickly.
Microsoft actually had an initive many years ago to try to get boot times
down. It was getting pretty bad there for a while.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

On 8/27/2012 9:26 PM, Dave wrote:
And, it's not true anyway. I've got a new Samsung SIII and I can
delete, rearrange or modify most apps as I see fit. If I need to do
more than that, then rooting is pretty easy these days.

Same with jailbreaking an iPad.

What causes many to denigrate tablets is that they fail to realize that
added convenience most often comes with a price.

It's often more convenient to buy an apple pie than have Mom make one,
so you give up a little bit of taste rather than not have any apple pie
with your ice cream.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 8/27/2012 9:26 PM, Dave wrote:
On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 15:17:41 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
A friend has a Samsung and only uses it to read. She hates that she
cannot delete apps or even re-arrange them to suit her needs. Now she
has an iPad for everything else.

That surprises me. It's normally Apple that locks users into what they sell
and how they sell it, and it's usually the more open stuff that gives the
user more freedoms.

And, it's not true anyway. I've got a new Samsung SIII and I can
delete, rearrange or modify most apps as I see fit. If I need to do
more than that, then rooting is pretty easy these days.



It may be that the iPad is simply more intuitive to her than the Samsung.

I find myself using my USB port for a lot ot things - chargin my cell phone
and other USB type devices (Golf GPS, etc.), transfering data between my
laptop and my cell phone (could use wireless, or bluetooth but I generally
just use USB), and the likes. I'm sure I could adapt if I didn't have a USB
port, but I am used to using my laptop port. Reduces the number of power
supplies I have to keep packed.

I still use a couple USB devices but I find I don't have the need for
as many anymore. Since I work in a wi-fi environment and my files are
relatively small, it's easy and fast for me update them via wireless.

That's what smartphones are for! Actually, I do not use my cell phone GPS a
lot because of the battery drain from using it. When I travel, I just take
my vehicle GPS with me. I would not want to open up any kind of a device
like a laptop or an iPad for that functionality. Too many drawbacks.

My friend also has a smart phone. He just prefers the larger screen
and has no use for a dedicated GPS. Since he went with the 4G iPad, he
links his iPad and iPhone on vacation and at work and no longer
carries a laptop to meetings. His notes automatically upload to the
cloud and back to his desktop.

I have a smart phone too but for some things it's simply too small. I
hate attempting to read an Internet site on one. I don't use my
devices as much as some do. I know several people who completely work
on iPads now. I'm not there .. yet. I readily admit the iPad and it's
like still need some growth in the technology.

As Alton Brown likes to say, avoid uni-taskers. He means in the
kitchen but I apply that to everything in my life.

That surprises me. It's normally Apple that locks users into what they sell
and how they sell it, and it's usually the more open stuff that gives the
user more freedoms.

People often think that but once you get the devices into your hands
and actually work with them it usually turns out differently. In my
friend's case, I would have thought she wouldn't care about icon
location or app deletion, but she does. She often tends to buy things
on impulse and that was one such purchase. I am amused she now finally
has and loves the iPad. It isn't for everyone, but it does do most of
the things the average person does or wants to do.

Not so much a matter of adjusting to new ways - I'm pretty good about that.
It's more that I like the interface better. I would not like to have to
touch the screen to do everything. That to me, is an interruption in work
flow. I used to love the eraser head mouse buttons on laptops. You never
had to take your hands off of home row to navigate. It still sometimes
annoys me to have to move my hand 2" to hit the navigation keys or the touch
pad on my current laptop. Sigh....

I adjust well too. In fact I often go out of my way to try and test
new things. I don't have a touch screen desktop but some day there
will be no other option. Integration and cost will help speed those
things along.

Mouse? What's that? I haven't used a mouse in years, unless forced to.
Once Logitech came out with the track ball, that was all I needed and
all I use. Frustrates anyone else who sits at my desk .. lol .. but
hey, that's not my problem. I can move faster and do more with the
trackmarble than with a mouse and my wrist doesn't cramp or suffer.

Technology changes life and many go kicking and screaming. I prefer
not to waste energy on that fight but it's an individual decision.

Kind of like bicycles... A multi-speed is easier on the legs while a
fixie (single speed) is harder. Both are healthier, but one is
lighter, cheaper and easier to fix on the road.

So with the old saying, "work smarter, not harder", I believe it's all
relative to perception of what is harder ... for you. :-)

A friend has a Samsung and only uses it to read. She hates that she
cannot delete apps or even re-arrange them to suit her needs. Now she
has an iPad for everything else.

That surprises me. It's normally Apple that locks users into what they sell
and how they sell it, and it's usually the more open stuff that gives the
user more freedoms.

And, it's not true anyway. I've got a new Samsung SIII and I can
delete, rearrange or modify most apps as I see fit. If I need to do
more than that, then rooting is pretty easy these days.

I would agree but I can't say for certain as she won't let me try, but
she has a first model Samsun Galaxy tablet if that makes a difference.

It's a matter of brain chemistry. Back a few years now, bought my
mother a VCR. Spent a number of days over a month's time trying to
teach her how to use the onscreen programming. Nada! It ended up
sitting there completely unused.

Haven't we all seen the 12:00 flashers in our time? lol

Then I bought her a microwave with three levels of programming. Came
back two days later to show her how to use it and found she'd already
memorized its entire operation.

Maybe it's a cooking thing as my mother does the same. Loves to cook
but can't operate a tv/vcr/dvr remote to save her life.

Brain chemistry I tell you!

You may very well be right.

Swingman wrote:
On 8/27/2012 9:26 PM, Dave wrote:
And, it's not true anyway. I've got a new Samsung SIII and I can
delete, rearrange or modify most apps as I see fit. If I need to do
more than that, then rooting is pretty easy these days.

Same with jailbreaking an iPad.

What causes many to denigrate tablets is that they fail to realize
that added convenience most often comes with a price.


A typical Karl comment. Criticize the thoughts/opinions of others, by
stating that they are somehow inadequate, and then stopping there. Pure
"holier than thou" bull****.

It's often more convenient to buy an apple pie than have Mom make one,
so you give up a little bit of taste rather than not have any apple
pie with your ice cream.

More Karl - meaningless... well, what in the hell do you call them...
garble?

Leon wrote:
On 8/27/2012 9:26 PM, Dave wrote:
On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 15:17:41 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
A friend has a Samsung and only uses it to read. She hates that she
cannot delete apps or even re-arrange them to suit her needs. Now
she has an iPad for everything else.

That surprises me. It's normally Apple that locks users into what
they sell and how they sell it, and it's usually the more open
stuff that gives the user more freedoms.

And, it's not true anyway. I've got a new Samsung SIII and I can
delete, rearrange or modify most apps as I see fit. If I need to do
more than that, then rooting is pretty easy these days.



It may be that the iPad is simply more intuitive to her than the
Samsung.

Could be. But the question is - how so? So far everything that has been
said about the iPad is exactly the same (or lesser in capability) as the
tablet. The point is - and is this so damned hard to understand???? - what
exactly is that difference?

--

-Mike-

21 pounds! Crypes, that's a desktop! My 15" is only 7 pounds, and it's a
"full featured" laptop. They make them significantly lighter than that, too.
I carry mine to work every day.

I got caught up in the pretty 17-inch screen. Even has a remote.

With the advent of cloud connectivity and storage, there really isn't
the same need for a USB port. As long as I can stream my videos, etc,
then why bother with more acessories?

Not buying that at all.

Depends on your needs. I'm not saying it's going away anytime soon,
just that some people have rearranged things to do without them.

I have a friend who constantly loses things. Even lost his first iPad.
He will put down a USB stick and forget it existed. I'd go wireless.

I have a friend who uses his iPad while on vacation to view, sort and
upload his photos to his home machine. He also loves the GPS ability.

The lack of a keyboard must really suck. When we go on vacation, we bring
*both* laptops, a netbook, and a tablet (Nook color) with us.

Now that is one thing he and I don't see eye-to-eye on. He purchased
the Zagg case with the bluetooth keyboard. He loves it, except that to
charge it you have to remove it from the case (got me).

I suppose if I felt I could not live without one, I'd get one, but so
far I have managed just fine. Time will tell for sure.

A friend has a Samsung and only uses it to read. She hates that she
cannot delete apps or even re-arrange them to suit her needs. Now she
has an iPad for everything else.

So far, I would not want to be without the familiar things like a mouse,
etc. But... I've never used any of the pad devices, so who's to say?

I was skeptical, but I hate being that way, so I bought it. I did not,
however, buy in right away. Often the first ones off the assembly line
harbour the flaws and bugs.

It's hard for many people to adjust to new ways of doing things.
Except for kids. I will say I found somethings a challenge, but I like
a good challenge. I still have a desktop and will for some time due to
the work I do, but I will certainly make use of any new and better
tools if they make my job and life easier.

I can certainly see the purpose of tablets but haven't convinced myself that
carrying a tablet around gets me anything over a laptop and Droid phone. The
phone I can keep in my pocket.

A laptop is certainly more powerful and capable, for now. I just hate
carrying one. I'm getting older and they were getting heavier. I guess
I just admire technology that shrinks in size but not in ability. lol

That's my point. I'm not against tablets, but so far noone has told me
anything about them that is compelling. All I hear is crap about people
being ignorant of technology (that from people who have no apparrent
argument, but want to defend their purchase in some way), and things about
using them that closely resembles what I do with either my laptop or my cell
phone. I'm just not getting what I'm missing here.

I do not believe people are being ignorant, just not comfortable with
change. I have one friend who absolutely hates change of any kind.
Breaks into tears at any middle or major change. Change jobs? There's
a week of tears at least.

Defend purchases? I'll defend people, beliefs, ideologies, but not
purchases. That's a personal thing that requires only the buyer to be
happy about it. After all, it's their money.

But the Tablet allows me to watch TV and occasionally look up things
and help with Crosswords and look at mail when it arrives without
being in the study.
It is certainly not a replacement for a PC or Laptop but it starts
almost instantly and is just easier for the casual times.

I never considered watching TV on my tablet until the cable company
piped out an app for it. Now I prop it up on the treadmill and can get
the news, show or whatever while I walk. Not possible with my laptop.

I can't replace my desktop, not yet. It's my job and it's cheaper.

So... since I don't use my computers to watch TV (I use my TV's for that...)
I have to ask - is that something that is an improvement over watching your
TV?

Um, good question. I'd say no but I only have one TV, by choice.
I go thru times of turning off the tv. As for watching in the iPad,
it's just a convience when on the treadmill. Less dedicated equipment.

It is certainly not a replacement for a PC or Laptop but it starts
almost instantly and is just easier for the casual times.

The "starts almost instantly" thing is one thing that I see as valuable. I
do get impatient sometimes, waiting for my laptop to boot up. I guess I
just don't get impatient often enough for that to be a big deal for me. My
laptop is on almost all of the time. I seldom have to boot it (except for
the Windows things that can only be resolved by a re-boot...), so I guess I
don't often realize a value in a quick boot time. I just close it, pack it
and open it when I get where I'm going. Time to work is very short and I
suppose I never consdered it to be onerous.

I'm see people get extraodinarily frustrated over boot times. IMHO,
that's not what they are really frustrated about. I just go grab a
coffee or whatever and come back. When working on servers, it can take
even an hour to reboot. Now there's frustration for you. lol

Casper wrote:


My friend also has a smart phone. He just prefers the larger screen
and has no use for a dedicated GPS. Since he went with the 4G iPad, he
links his iPad and iPhone on vacation and at work and no longer
carries a laptop to meetings. His notes automatically upload to the
cloud and back to his desktop.

Yup - I've seen guys doing that. Just my opinion, but to me that is too
much effort. I'm not enamored by using the cloud just because I can. I can
eliminate half of his steps just by doing it on my PC, and not even involve
the risks associated with the cloud. So again - what is his "advantage"?

I have been evangelizing cloud based solutions and selling them from long
before most people here even heard of the term. I know very well from an
infrastructure perspective, what the advantages and what the limitations or
the liabilities of a cloud based solution are. To use the term "cloud"
should raise a number of discussion points. If it does not - then the
speaker does not understand the cloud at all. But that is just my
"uninformed" opinion on the matter. And - I am a believer in the cloud - go
figure that one out.


I have a smart phone too but for some things it's simply too small. I
hate attempting to read an Internet site on one. I don't use my
devices as much as some do.

Nor do I. I have a Galaxy S3 and even with its big screen, it's not the
answer to everything. I don't surf the net on it and only use it on the net
when I need to. It is no replacement for a laptop. But - it does fill a
small hole - with constraints.



As Alton Brown likes to say, avoid uni-taskers. He means in the
kitchen but I apply that to everything in my life.

Yup!


That surprises me. It's normally Apple that locks users into what
they sell and how they sell it, and it's usually the more open stuff
that gives the user more freedoms.

People often think that but once you get the devices into your hands
and actually work with them it usually turns out differently. In my
friend's case, I would have thought she wouldn't care about icon
location or app deletion, but she does. She often tends to buy things
on impulse and that was one such purchase. I am amused she now finally
has and loves the iPad. It isn't for everyone, but it does do most of
the things the average person does or wants to do.

Again - I am surprised that she found the tablet to be less user
configurable than an iPad. Are you sure she knew how to use it? Operator
brain-damage?




Mouse? What's that? I haven't used a mouse in years, unless forced to.
Once Logitech came out with the track ball, that was all I needed and
all I use. Frustrates anyone else who sits at my desk .. lol .. but
hey, that's not my problem. I can move faster and do more with the
trackmarble than with a mouse and my wrist doesn't cramp or suffer.

Yeah - I use the term almost universally. Track ball, mouse, eraser head,
touch pad - they all kind of blend together in my speach.


--

-Mike-

Casper wrote:
That's my point. I'm not against tablets, but so far noone has told
me anything about them that is compelling. All I hear is crap about
people being ignorant of technology (that from people who have no
apparrent argument, but want to defend their purchase in some way),
and things about using them that closely resembles what I do with
either my laptop or my cell phone. I'm just not getting what I'm
missing here.

I do not believe people are being ignorant, just not comfortable with
change. I have one friend who absolutely hates change of any kind.
Breaks into tears at any middle or major change. Change jobs? There's
a week of tears at least.

I accept that there is a poplution that operates that way, so I agree with
you. Just to be clear - my point was simply that to date, I have not heard
any compelling arguments in favor, but hear a lot from the "other side" (if
you will...), about how ignorant those of us who have not made the move,
are. I can't help but find that argument funny.


--

-Mike-

Casper wrote:
So... since I don't use my computers to watch TV (I use my TV's for
that...) I have to ask - is that something that is an improvement
over watching your TV?

Um, good question. I'd say no but I only have one TV, by choice.
I go thru times of turning off the tv. As for watching in the iPad,
it's just a convience when on the treadmill. Less dedicated equipment.

Makes sense. In our house we have an old TV down where the exercise
equipment is. Tomatoes, tomotos... or something like that...


I'm see people get extraodinarily frustrated over boot times. IMHO,
that's not what they are really frustrated about. I just go grab a
coffee or whatever and come back. When working on servers, it can take
even an hour to reboot. Now there's frustration for you. lol

Oye! Now that would bother me. Thankfully, my laptop (from a cold boot)
is... well, it's a heck of a lot shorter than that.

--

-Mike-

On 8/28/2012 12:13 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Casper wrote:
That's my point. I'm not against tablets, but so far noone has told
me anything about them that is compelling. All I hear is crap about
people being ignorant of technology (that from people who have no
apparrent argument, but want to defend their purchase in some way),
and things about using them that closely resembles what I do with
either my laptop or my cell phone. I'm just not getting what I'm
missing here.

I do not believe people are being ignorant, just not comfortable with
change. I have one friend who absolutely hates change of any kind.
Breaks into tears at any middle or major change. Change jobs? There's
a week of tears at least.

I accept that there is a poplution that operates that way, so I agree with
you. Just to be clear - my point was simply that to date, I have not heard
any compelling arguments in favor, but hear a lot from the "other side" (if
you will...), about how ignorant those of us who have not made the move,
are. I can't help but find that argument funny.



That's just "marketing". It's part of a product. If people don't
"understand your product" it might as well not exist...

You don't hear people explaining that the PCs can do things that their
i-counterparts cannot do because there would be little profit in it.

*bling" is a feature of a product too. People make great sacrifices for
bling because it strokes their self-esteem--not as well as a Festool
could do it, but close! ; )

Bill wrote:


That's just "marketing". It's part of a product. If people don't
"understand your product" it might as well not exist...


Sales and Marketing has been my professional career - I understand that
stuff very well. That's why I ask the question thar I do.

You don't hear people explaining that the PCs can do things that their
i-counterparts cannot do because there would be little profit in it.

That statement might have been intended to mean something Bill, but the
meanining did not come throuth. Try again?


*bling" is a feature of a product too. People make great sacrifices
for bling because it strokes their self-esteem--not as well as a
Festool could do it, but close! ; )

That is the belief of the common populace. In reality, outside of a few
very specialized markets (mostly ghetto markets), "bling" has no real value.
Now - it you are talking about perceived value, or something like social
value - then I'd agree with you. But - those are the points I am trying to
get past with my questions. I don't care what no-minds will spend their
money on. I'm conducting a dialog that is more sophisticated than that. To
add "bling" crap does nothing to advance this conversation.

--

-Mike-

On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 22:48:47 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

Dave wrote:


You're not missing anything. It's a matter of finding out what you
really need compared to what you *think* you need.

Case in point. After urging from a friend with a new tablet, I bought
a 10" Asus Transformer Prime tablet in February of this year. Realized
after eight weeks that it was a pain for me to carry around and I
wasn't inclined to use it when I had my desktop to use at home. Ended
up selling it for near a 50% loss.

Now I've got a Samsung SIII superphone and I'm really happy with it.
It does everything I need and more and I don't have any problem
carrying it around.

Same phone I have - and perhaps that contributes to my wondering the things
I've offered here. Between my laptop and my Galaxy, I am good to go.

Mine is a Motorola Droid Razr, but same, same. I just don't see that the
difference between the 4" screen and 7" screen to be worth it (the 4" easily
fits in my pocket). If I have to lug around a 10", I might just as well lug
around the laptop and get a real keyboard in the bargain.

On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 11:30:05 -0400, Casper wrote:

21 pounds! Crypes, that's a desktop! My 15" is only 7 pounds, and it's a
"full featured" laptop. They make them significantly lighter than that, too.
I carry mine to work every day.

I got caught up in the pretty 17-inch screen. Even has a remote.

21lbs. is ridiculous even for a 17-inch laptop. That's in the IBM "luggable"
range. ;-)

With the advent of cloud connectivity and storage, there really isn't
the same need for a USB port. As long as I can stream my videos, etc,
then why bother with more acessories?

Not buying that at all.

Depends on your needs. I'm not saying it's going away anytime soon,
just that some people have rearranged things to do without them.

Certainly. I don't see the need for USB going anywhere, rather the opposite,
actually. If it* doesn't have an RJ45 on it, it'll have a micro-USB port on
it.
[*] For a very wide range of "its".

I have a friend who constantly loses things. Even lost his first iPad.
He will put down a USB stick and forget it existed. I'd go wireless.

USB sticks make great sneakernets. There are all sorts of appliances that
have standardized on USB. Wireless isn't going to cut it.

I have a friend who uses his iPad while on vacation to view, sort and
upload his photos to his home machine. He also loves the GPS ability.

The lack of a keyboard must really suck. When we go on vacation, we bring
*both* laptops, a netbook, and a tablet (Nook color) with us.

Now that is one thing he and I don't see eye-to-eye on. He purchased
the Zagg case with the bluetooth keyboard. He loves it, except that to
charge it you have to remove it from the case (got me).

Another widget to carry.

I suppose if I felt I could not live without one, I'd get one, but so
far I have managed just fine. Time will tell for sure.

A friend has a Samsung and only uses it to read. She hates that she
cannot delete apps or even re-arrange them to suit her needs. Now she
has an iPad for everything else.

So far, I would not want to be without the familiar things like a mouse,
etc. But... I've never used any of the pad devices, so who's to say?

I was skeptical, but I hate being that way, so I bought it. I did not,
however, buy in right away. Often the first ones off the assembly line
harbour the flaws and bugs.

I just can't see it. I looked through the tablet apps and everything I need
also runs on my phone. Applications, I use, where that there aren't direct
substitutes on the phone really need a keyboard and mouse (at minimum).

It's hard for many people to adjust to new ways of doing things.
Except for kids. I will say I found somethings a challenge, but I like
a good challenge. I still have a desktop and will for some time due to
the work I do, but I will certainly make use of any new and better
tools if they make my job and life easier.

I can certainly see the purpose of tablets but haven't convinced myself that
carrying a tablet around gets me anything over a laptop and Droid phone. The
phone I can keep in my pocket.

A laptop is certainly more powerful and capable, for now. I just hate
carrying one. I'm getting older and they were getting heavier. I guess
I just admire technology that shrinks in size but not in ability. lol

My eyes and fingers aren't shrinking. I carry my laptop and phone (+ lunch
and drinks) to work every day. No big deal.

On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 13:54:16 -0400, "
Mine is a Motorola Droid Razr, but same, same. I just don't see that the
difference between the 4" screen and 7" screen to be worth it (the 4" easily
fits in my pocket). If I have to lug around a 10", I might just as well lug
around the laptop and get a real keyboard in the bargain.

I agree with you about the laptop. I didn't buy the S3 particularly
for browsing online. But, for those few times that I might want to,
its screen is just big enough for me to maneuver around without great
difficulty.

Phone calls, occasional browsing when I'm out, transporting it *and*
its updated technological capabilities, for me it was the best
compromise between all categories.

Since I did own a tablet for several weeks and decided it wasn't
exactly what I wanted, the S3 correctly filled the need that I'd
originally hoped the tablet would meet.

Obviously, it cost me money to find all of this out, but that finding
out was worth the cost ~ at least it was to me.

On 8/28/2012 1:16 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:

That is the belief of the common populace. In reality, outside of a few
very specialized markets (mostly ghetto markets), "bling" has no real value.
Now - it you are talking about perceived value, or something like social
value - then I'd agree with you.


Yes, Perceived value is what makes a sale, more than actual value.
i-widgets have lots of *bling*.



But - those are the points I am trying to
get past with my questions. I don't care what no-minds will spend their
money on. I'm conducting a dialog that is more sophisticated than that. To
add "bling" crap does nothing to advance this conversation.

Okay, but I'm not sure what is left to be said. I will say it: When one
buys a Festool they are paying for some bling. If one doesn't like it,
then they shouldn't buy it. That's clearly not all they are buying, but
that's an aspect.

I bought a large Pfeil gouge this weekend at Woodcraft and thought I
paid for some bling too (Woodcraft is the only Pfeil distributor in
N.A.).At least I had a 25% off coupon. It was my decision though. I
know where to find Festools if I ever want one!

Somehow I don't care for Saw Stop's bling.

On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 14:37:13 -0400, Dave wrote:
Obviously, it cost me money to find all of this out, but that finding
out was worth the cost ~ at least it was to me.

I forgot to add, everyone's needs are unique. Over the last five years
or so, I went through five compressors until I finally found one that
I could use in my apartment.

Yup, most certainly, I've spent more money than I had to, but for me
the money isn't as important as the finding of a tool that meets my
needs (and wants). Similarly, Festool products are in that same
category for only a few people.

On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 14:43:21 -0400, Bill
Somehow I don't care for Saw Stop's bling.

A SawStop has bling, just that it's the unspoken bling of knowing that
you're most likely going to keep all your fingers ~ at least when it
comes to table sawing wood.

Bill wrote:


Okay, but I'm not sure what is left to be said. I will say it: When
one buys a Festool they are paying for some bling. If one doesn't
like it, then they shouldn't buy it. That's clearly not all they are
buying, but that's an aspect.


Ok - I think you are at least close to what I was talking about in a
previous post - where there are some things that you just want. Because...
you just want them. Maybe not completely bling, but close.

--

-Mike-

In article , Mike Marlow
wrote:

That surprises me. It's normally Apple that locks users into what they sell
and how they sell it, and it's usually the more open stuff that gives the
user more freedoms.

Android claims to be open, but it's the provider that decides what they
will and won't allow. IOW, it's not the manufacturer, it's the phone
company.

Mike Marlow wrote:
Bill wrote:


Okay, but I'm not sure what is left to be said. I will say it: When
one buys a Festool they are paying for some bling. If one doesn't
like it, then they shouldn't buy it. That's clearly not all they are
buying, but that's an aspect.


Ok - I think you are at least close to what I was talking about in a
previous post - where there are some things that you just want. Because...
you just want them. Maybe not completely bling, but close.



How about this then: Some people need the bling to seal the deal and
some don't... The bling aspect is only part of the marginal benefit of
buying the tool if the buyer places a value on bling. The seller
*doesn't care why* you buy, just that you have a reason to do so. A
potential customer will buy when his or her benefit of buying exceeds
the cost...(and there are all kinds of benefits and costs).

I have a friend who got rid of cable and just kept high speed internet.
He discovered that he was recording everything he watched, anyway, and
watching it later and many times on his iPad. He dumped cable and buys
all his shows either a la carte on iTunes, or through cheap (or free)
subscription based sites like Hulu.com.

His television bill was cut down to 1/3 of his cable bill and that's on
a month when he watches a lot. The iPad is great for casual watching and
on the bus (traveling musician). When he wants to watch something "huge"
he hooks up the laptop or harddrive to his 60" with surround and gets
out the popcorn.

I wish the cable companies would charge via a la carte, pick-n-choose
channels. They already have the technology, so it's just something they
need to get around to doing. As more and more people do what my friends
is doing, they will see the market for it and offer it.
-MIKE-

I long for the a'la carte days of television. I have over 1300
channels and watch less than 20. Oh to be able to pick and choose.

...It's a matter of finding out what you really need compared to what you *think* you need. Dave

Exactly true and not the same for everyone.

Case in point. After urging from a friend with a new tablet, I bought
a 10" Asus Transformer Prime tablet in February of this year. Realized
after eight weeks that it was a pain for me to carry around and I
wasn't inclined to use it when I had my desktop to use at home. Ended
up selling it for near a 50% loss.

Bummer on the loss.

Now I've got a Samsung SIII superphone and I'm really happy with it.
It does everything I need and more and I don't have any problem
carrying it around.

Glad you're happy with it.

I believe, in a lot of cases, people buy because it's the popular
thing to do. And by my saying so, I understand how and where Jack's
opinion of Festool originates. The only difference is that in this
case, I bought and used something before I dismissed it. Won't be the
first or last time that happens.

I see that with some things, but not with all things. Friends who have
BMWs, Audis and such because it makes a statement. To me, their having
to pay enormous amounts of interest and being in credit hell says
more, but I guess I'm weird that way...

....and I don't own a festool.

The important thing is that I've found what I really needed and do
want.

That's the way it should be.

On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 22:48:47 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
Hell - I found that out 30 years ago! And... she's a 34B!

I'd respond to that, but I'd rather not offend the few female
woodworkers we have on hand here. Dave

LOL .. I'll admit there have been some things posted here that have
pushed the boundaries, but I figure when in a predoninantly male
environment, one must deal with it on a male level.

Hand-me-downs are good things in the iPad scheme of things.

Gave my first gen to oldest daughter, who gave it to her husband when
she upgraded to her new iPad.

My wife now has my old iPad2, who gave her first gen to my SIL's mother,
who has Parkinson's and really finds it much easier to use than her
computer.

There is not enough difference in the models, thus far, to really make
much difference in everyday use for those getting their first iPad.
swingman

That's the way to do it! ;-)

Yup - I've seen guys doing that. Just my opinion, but to me that is too
much effort. I'm not enamored by using the cloud just because I can. I can
eliminate half of his steps just by doing it on my PC, and not even involve
the risks associated with the cloud. So again - what is his "advantage"?

He feels his advantage is carrying less and lighter objects. He's not
a light man and very into technology. He is a programmer. He hates
when it takes too many steps or has too many problems in doing things
that should be simple and straight forward. He used to take his
laptop, then netbook, and upload remotely to his home server, but it
takes longer, especially when on speed limited hotel networks. Now he
says it's faster, cheaper and easier to do it this way. That's what
the man says.

I have been evangelizing cloud based solutions and selling them from long
before most people here even heard of the term. I know very well from an
infrastructure perspective, what the advantages and what the limitations or
the liabilities of a cloud based solution are. To use the term "cloud"
should raise a number of discussion points. If it does not - then the
speaker does not understand the cloud at all. But that is just my
"uninformed" opinion on the matter. And - I am a believer in the cloud - go
figure that one out.

I laughed the first time I heard the term cloud. Like it's magic, lol.
I use the cloud a bit but I am skeptical of any new tech when it first
arrives and in this case, cautious of protecting my personal data.

Nor do I. I have a Galaxy S3 and even with its big screen, it's not the
answer to everything. I don't surf the net on it and only use it on the net
when I need to. It is no replacement for a laptop. But - it does fill a
small hole - with constraints.

Agreed.

Again - I am surprised that she found the tablet to be less user
configurable than an iPad. Are you sure she knew how to use it? Operator
brain-damage?

Ironically, she works in the technology realm, although in my opinion,
is not a tech. True techs live and breathe tech. She is easily
frustrated with new things, can't imagine building a pc yourself, and
has a short fuse on patience. I gave her a book on the device but I
doubt she read it. And, as I said, she won't let me look at it. So,
she gets to live with the frustration, not me.

Mouse? What's that? I haven't used a mouse in years, unless forced to.
Once Logitech came out with the track ball, that was all I needed and
all I use. Frustrates anyone else who sits at my desk .. lol .. but
hey, that's not my problem. I can move faster and do more with the
trackmarble than with a mouse and my wrist doesn't cramp or suffer.

Yeah - I use the term almost universally. Track ball, mouse, eraser head,
touch pad - they all kind of blend together in my speach.

I think many people do the same. I started experiencing wrist
discomfort many years ago working for microsoft. A working neighbor
had a trackmarble and let me try it. I've had one ever since. My
thumbs were damaged back in school and I always am concerned that I
will suffer serious arthritis when I get older, so the trackmarble
helps me to exercise them. It's been working so far.

I do not believe people are being ignorant, just not comfortable with
change. I have one friend who absolutely hates change of any kind.
Breaks into tears at any middle or major change. Change jobs? There's
a week of tears at least. Casper

I accept that there is a poplution that operates that way, so I agree with
you. Just to be clear - my point was simply that to date, I have not heard
any compelling arguments in favor, but hear a lot from the "other side" (if
you will...), about how ignorant those of us who have not made the move,
are. I can't help but find that argument funny. -MIKE-

I understood your point. Merely clarifying mine so as not to offend
anyone. It's easy on the net for conversations to be misunderstood.

I guess my point was more of a question. Do you need compelling
arguments to look at something and experience it for yourself?

I'm not being critical, just quizzical. I don't heed most opinions
myself, even about movies or tv shows. I will listen and log, then
look myself and decide. Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

Casper wrote:


I understood your point. Merely clarifying mine so as not to offend
anyone. It's easy on the net for conversations to be misunderstood.

I guess my point was more of a question. Do you need compelling
arguments to look at something and experience it for yourself?

Fair question. I guess that the answer is "Yes" - or at least to some
degree. Years ago I would have looked at new stuff with an interest. These
days - not so much. I guess it's part of getting older and settled in.
Today, I guess I need to understand at the very least - a reason for a
change. Part of that may be old folks syndrome. It's what I remember from
my youth, and now find myself embracing. Someone has to tell me why the
newest whizbang is better or different or whatever... than what I am using
now and works for me. You know - when you get old you simply know that all
of these promises have exsited for time eternal, and very few of them have
ever proven themselves out - you just simply know it... because you're
older... and we all know how important that is...


--

-Mike-

That's just "marketing". It's part of a product. If people don't
"understand your product" it might as well not exist...

You don't hear people explaining that the PCs can do things that their
i-counterparts cannot do because there would be little profit in it.

*bling" is a feature of a product too. People make great sacrifices
for bling because it strokes their self-esteem--not as well as a
Festool could do it, but close! ; ) Bill

I suppose that may be true for others but certainly not for me.
I still don't own a festool.

That is the belief of the common populace. In reality, outside of a few
very specialized markets (mostly ghetto markets), "bling" has no real value.
Now - it you are talking about perceived value, or something like social
value - then I'd agree with you.

I agree, but that's just mho.

But - those are the points I am trying to get past with my questions.
I don't care what no-minds will spend their money on. I'm conducting
a dialog that is more sophisticated than that. To add "bling" crap does
nothing to advance this conversation. Mike

Agreed. No-minds, I like that term. I agree about the conversation.

I walk right past the sequin-coated iphone covers and would run away
from a sequin-covered festool. I saw a derringer once where the grip
was diamonds in lucite. I had one thought ... why?

On 8/29/2012 11:45 AM, Casper wrote:
I walk right past the sequin-coated iphone covers and would run away
from a sequin-covered festool. I saw a derringer once where the grip
was diamonds in lucite. I had one thought ... why?

LOL Steve Jobs, famous for his minimalistic approach to design, as well
as Jon Ives, his favorite designer, is undoubtedly spinning in his grave
to hear the term "bling" in the same breath with "iPad".

Same goes for Festool products ... both manufacturers are well known for
a functional-to-a-fault design approach, resulting in a minimalist
design where anything not absolutely functional is hard to find on any
of their products.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

Casper wrote:


I walk right past the sequin-coated iphone covers and would run away
from a sequin-covered festool. I saw a derringer once where the grip
was diamonds in lucite. I had one thought ... why?

You sir, are a man of discrimating tastes. Hats off to ya!

--

-Mike-

Swingman wrote:
On 8/29/2012 11:45 AM, Casper wrote:
I walk right past the sequin-coated iphone covers and would run away
from a sequin-covered festool. I saw a derringer once where the grip
was diamonds in lucite. I had one thought ... why?

LOL Steve Jobs, famous for his minimalistic approach to design, as
well as Jon Ives, his favorite designer, is undoubtedly spinning in
his grave to hear the term "bling" in the same breath with "iPad".

Same goes for Festool products ... both manufacturers are well known
for a functional-to-a-fault design approach, resulting in a minimalist
design where anything not absolutely functional is hard to find on any
of their products.

All right! A post where I can get back to agreeing with Karl! And I do so
with a vengance.

--

-Mike-

I understood your point. Merely clarifying mine so as not to offend
anyone. It's easy on the net for conversations to be misunderstood.

I guess my point was more of a question. Do you need compelling
arguments to look at something and experience it for yourself?
Casper


Fair question. I guess that the answer is "Yes" - or at least to some
degree. Years ago I would have looked at new stuff with an interest. These
days - not so much. I guess it's part of getting older and settled in.
Today, I guess I need to understand at the very least - a reason for a
change. Part of that may be old folks syndrome. It's what I remember from
my youth, and now find myself embracing. Someone has to tell me why the
newest whizbang is better or different or whatever... than what I am using
now and works for me. You know - when you get old you simply know that all
of these promises have exsited for time eternal, and very few of them have
ever proven themselves out - you just simply know it... because you're
older... and we all know how important that is...
Mike Marlow

I do to some degree as well. My personal philosophy stems from that
old saying, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"... unless ... can it
improve something for me? Is it worth it??

Maybe I just don't perceive as much as 'change'. I look at new tech
when it is shown to me or something I am actively seeking, which is
infrequent. I consider how it may better assist me, cost to me (not
just flat price) and do I ultimately need it.

I consider opinions and reviews but with a grain of salt (have to keep
an eye out for horder-views .. lol). I either reach a positive
conclusion and buy it, a negative one and don't, or, if it takes too
long to decide, then I probably don't need it.

My husband has bought me things that I have returned to the store
(yes, I am a weird one and he has been unhappy about it), but if I
don't need it or we're better off with the cash, then I can't justify
keeping it. I guess I am frugal. Then again, I did pass the half a
century mark already. Is that still old? ;-)

Casper wrote:


I do to some degree as well. My personal philosophy stems from that
old saying, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"... unless ... can it
improve something for me? Is it worth it??

I guess that is my unspoken philosophy as well.


Maybe I just don't perceive as much as 'change'. I look at new tech
when it is shown to me or something I am actively seeking, which is
infrequent. I consider how it may better assist me, cost to me (not
just flat price) and do I ultimately need it.

I'd probably fall nto that same camp. One thing that I know I am not is
that I am not the guy who will embrace something new, simply because it is
something new. Sure don't like hearing that I am some sort of phobic, or
that I am somehow a lesser person simply because I do not jump to embrace
all of these new (not so valuable) things. I sometimes wonder what people
actually do look when they make decisions on new technologies.


My husband has bought me things that I have returned to the store
(yes, I am a weird one and he has been unhappy about it), but if I
don't need it or we're better off with the cash, then I can't justify
keeping it. I guess I am frugal. Then again, I did pass the half a
century mark already. Is that still old? ;-)

Hell No! I passed the half centrury mark a while ago, and am on the brink
of the next decade. I consider half cenury people to be the best.

--

-Mike-

On 8/29/12 2:42 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 8/29/2012 11:45 AM, Casper wrote:
I walk right past the sequin-coated iphone covers and would run away
from a sequin-covered festool. I saw a derringer once where the grip
was diamonds in lucite. I had one thought ... why?

LOL Steve Jobs, famous for his minimalistic approach to design, as well
as Jon Ives, his favorite designer, is undoubtedly spinning in his grave
to hear the term "bling" in the same breath with "iPad".

Same goes for Festool products ... both manufacturers are well known for
a functional-to-a-fault design approach, resulting in a minimalist
design where anything not absolutely functional is hard to find on any
of their products.


I think people just equate "bling" with expensive.
Fact is, no one has come out with tools that work as well as Festool for
a cheaper price.
Maybe "bling" means, this is what quality and functionality
second-to-none costs.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Wed, 29 Aug 2012 17:10:59 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
Sure don't like hearing that I am some sort of phobic, or
that I am somehow a lesser person simply because I do not jump to embrace
all of these new (not so valuable) things. I sometimes wonder what people
actually do look when they make decisions on new technologies.

Yeah, but you've left a whole lot out with that reply. The truth is
that you've been asking questions about Festool products for some time
now. Over and over again, several of us have given our views and
ultimately end up telling you to go find out for yourself. You won't
take that first step.

Here's how I'm seeing you. Please don't be offended.

You're that sorta shy kid in school who has been eyeing some girl who
is in several of his classes. You won't/can't/haven't yet gotten up
the nerve to go and really talk to her. She's nice to look at, is
popular and she laughs a lot. But, she's always surrounded by other
people paying attention to her and that bothers you.

A number of your buddies say she's nice. She's easy to talk to and
that you'd probably like her. But, you still watch her from a distance
all the while asking the occasional surreptitious question about her
but still trying to appear not all that interested.

Go talk to this girl Mike. It might be the start of a great
relationship. All that can happen is that it won't work out. Believe
me, as a former shy kid, a long, long time ago, the wondering and the
failure to act is way more painful than the trying and not succeeding
will ever be.