Just re-fixed some hooks to the outside wall to hold up my ladders (bought
in the 1970s).
One of the new fangled cross head multi purpose screws had snapped off by
the head.
The rest were a bit wobbly.

I had a root around and all my newish cross-head screws are very thin and
don't have that smooth part near the head which grips.
Presumably most new screws are multi-purpose as opposed to the traditional
wood screws.

So I dug out some old stock of slot head steel self coloured wood screws
(probably 20 years old).
I dug out my venerable B&D quattro hammer drill because my newer SDS is too
brutal for drilling holes in 1930's red brick.

All fixed now and pretty solid, although it did remind me what a pain it is
working with slot head screws as opposed to cross head.

So older technology sometimes works better.
Can you get the equivalent profile of the old steel slot head wood screws in
cross head?
Nearly everything these days seems to be an amorphous gold colour, very
skinny, and threaded almost right up to the head.
Wonderful for quickly screwing into wood with a cordless drill/driver
without having to drill a pilot hole first.
Not nearly as robust as the old stuff for heavier fixing.

Cheers

Dave R

--
No plan survives contact with the enemy.
[Not even bunny]

Helmuth von Moltke the Elder

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

David WE Roberts wrote:

Just re-fixed some hooks to the outside wall to hold up my ladders (bought
in the 1970s).
One of the new fangled cross head multi purpose screws had snapped off by
the head.
The rest were a bit wobbly.

I had a root around and all my newish cross-head screws are very thin and
don't have that smooth part near the head which grips.
Presumably most new screws are multi-purpose as opposed to the traditional
wood screws.

So I dug out some old stock of slot head steel self coloured wood screws
(probably 20 years old).
I dug out my venerable B&D quattro hammer drill because my newer SDS is
too brutal for drilling holes in 1930's red brick.

All fixed now and pretty solid, although it did remind me what a pain it
is working with slot head screws as opposed to cross head.

So older technology sometimes works better.
Can you get the equivalent profile of the old steel slot head wood screws
in cross head?
Nearly everything these days seems to be an amorphous gold colour, very
skinny, and threaded almost right up to the head.
Wonderful for quickly screwing into wood with a cordless drill/driver
without having to drill a pilot hole first.
Not nearly as robust as the old stuff for heavier fixing.

Cheers

Dave R


I have certainly bought traditional shaped woodscrews with a pozi head,
because I prefer them for fixing skirting. They were in stainless steel
though (required as skirting was oak).

http://www.thesitebox.com/screws/woo...teel-phillips-
countersunk-woodscrews.aspx

Strangely they do not seem to have plain steel... Stainless are fine for
many jobs, though they aren't as stong - but likely they are stronger than
the substrate you are putting then into in many cases.

--
Tim Watts

On Oct 7, 6:28*pm, Tim Watts wrote:
David WE Roberts wrote:
Just re-fixed some hooks to the outside wall to hold up my ladders (bought
in the 1970s).
One of the new fangled cross head multi purpose screws had snapped off by
the head.
The rest were a bit wobbly.

I had a root around and all my newish cross-head screws are very thin and
don't have that smooth part near the head which grips.
Presumably most new screws are multi-purpose as opposed to the traditional
wood screws.

So I dug out some old stock of slot head steel self coloured wood screws
(probably 20 years old).
I dug out my venerable B&D quattro hammer drill because my newer SDS is
too brutal for drilling holes in 1930's red brick.

All fixed now and pretty solid, although it did remind me what a pain it
is working with slot head screws as opposed to cross head.

So older technology sometimes works better.
Can you get the equivalent profile of the old steel slot head wood screws
in cross head?
Nearly everything these days seems to be an amorphous gold colour, very
skinny, and threaded almost right up to the head.
Wonderful for quickly screwing into wood with a cordless drill/driver
without having to drill a pilot hole first.
Not nearly as robust as the old stuff for heavier fixing.

Cheers

Dave R

I have certainly bought traditional shaped woodscrews with a pozi head,
because I prefer them for fixing skirting. They were in stainless steel
though (required as skirting was oak).

http://www.thesitebox.com/screws/woo...teel-phillips-
countersunk-woodscrews.aspx

Strangely they do not seem to have plain steel... Stainless are fine for
many jobs, though they aren't as stong - but likely they are stronger than
the substrate you are putting then into in many cases.

You can get all sorts of types, including trad woodscrews. Most people
prefer the modern types, they behave better in most situations.


NT

On Fri, 7 Oct 2011 18:08:35 +0100, David WE Roberts wrote:

So I dug out some old stock of slot head steel self coloured wood screws
(probably 20 years old).
snip
All fixed now and pretty solid, ...

It is now but give it a few years and those steel screws rusted... I
don't use anything but brass or stainless steel outside, this is
why:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/allsort...et-72157624945
731244

--
Cheers
Dave.

"David WE Roberts" wrote in message
...
Just re-fixed some hooks to the outside wall to hold up my ladders (bought
in the 1970s).



You can still buy standard woodscrews .. most people have moved off them ...
the modern screw are parallel shank ... so if it starts going in well - it
keeps going in well.
Some have twin threads to speed up screwing (but usually not as strong a
grip)

The standard screw has a taper shaft and that is the problem ... as you get
deeper into wood the screw is becoming a wedge, making it harder to drive
in, more likely to split wood, and there is no holding grip into the wood
over perhaps 25% of screw length.

BTW ... as a side issue I use Stainless Self Tappers for most of my outdoor
work ... fixing guttering brackets, posts, hinges etc.
They have a parallel shaft .. but thicket than gold screws (which often
snap) ...and they hold superbly in wood as they have very deep threads.

I seem to get through loads of the No 10 an No 12 pan head pozidrive
variants.

On Fri, 07 Oct 2011 18:08:35 +0100, David WE Roberts wrote:
Nearly everything these days seems to be an amorphous gold colour, very
skinny, and threaded almost right up to the head.

I've found - at least here in the US - it pays to shop around, and to use
physical shops rather than online so you can see what you're getting;
there's a lot of variation in quality.

Wonderful for quickly
screwing into wood with a cordless drill/driver without having to drill
a pilot hole first.

I had a box of really ****ty ones at one point - they were quite prone to
shearing just below the head unless a pilot hole was drilled first, and
that was only going into SYP rather than anything particularly hard.

cheers

Jules

On Fri, 7 Oct 2011 21:39:08 +0100, Rick Hughes wrote:

"David WE Roberts" wrote in message
...
Just re-fixed some hooks to the outside wall to hold up my ladders (bought
in the 1970s).

You can still buy standard woodscrews .. most people have moved off them ...
the modern screw are parallel shank ... so if it starts going in well - it
keeps going in well.
Some have twin threads to speed up screwing (but usually not as strong a
grip)

The standard screw has a taper shaft and that is the problem ... as you get
deeper into wood the screw is becoming a wedge, making it harder to drive
in, more likely to split wood, and there is no holding grip into the wood
over perhaps 25% of screw length.

BTW ... as a side issue I use Stainless Self Tappers for most of my outdoor
work ... fixing guttering brackets, posts, hinges etc.
They have a parallel shaft .. but thicket than gold screws (which often
snap) ...and they hold superbly in wood as they have very deep threads.

I seem to get through loads of the No 10 an No 12 pan head pozidrive
variants.

SS STs are very useful: no 'wasted' shank, better selection of heads,
strong. They're good for light loads on skinned doors - I've used them for
things like tie racks and vents; also use quite a lot outside.
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

"Rick Hughes" wrote in message
...

"David WE Roberts" wrote in message
...
Just re-fixed some hooks to the outside wall to hold up my ladders
(bought in the 1970s).



You can still buy standard woodscrews .. most people have moved off them
... the modern screw are parallel shank ... so if it starts going in
well - it keeps going in well.
Some have twin threads to speed up screwing (but usually not as strong a
grip)

The standard screw has a taper shaft and that is the problem ... as you
get deeper into wood the screw is becoming a wedge, making it harder to
drive in, more likely to split wood, and there is no holding grip into the
wood over perhaps 25% of screw length.
snip


The problem I see with the new versus the old is that with the old type the
screw thread is used to pull in the final smooth tapering wedge to give a
friction fit whereas the newer type relies solely on the ability of the
thread to pull against the substrate.
This substrate is already chopped up by the thread going through it so it
doesn't seem to hold as well in things other than wood.
My problem is with screw and plastic plug into masonry.
The old style screw seems to get a much firmer fit in the last few turns.
Yes, this makes it harder to screw in and easier to damage the screw head.
OTOH it seems to hold more firmly.
YMMV obviously.

Cheers

Dave R
--
No plan survives contact with the enemy.
[Not even bunny]

Helmuth von Moltke the Elder

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

"Rick Hughes" wrote in message
...

"David WE Roberts" wrote in message
...
Just re-fixed some hooks to the outside wall to hold up my ladders
(bought in the 1970s).



You can still buy standard woodscrews .. most people have moved off them
... the modern screw are parallel shank ... so if it starts going in
well - it keeps going in well.
Some have twin threads to speed up screwing (but usually not as strong a
grip)

The standard screw has a taper shaft and that is the problem ... as you
get deeper into wood the screw is becoming a wedge, making it harder to
drive in, more likely to split wood, and there is no holding grip into the
wood over perhaps 25% of screw length.

snip
Oh, and another thing.
If you are fixing e.g. a piece of batten to a wall, with old style screws
the thread is in the wall and the shank is in the batten so the screw shank
can slide in the batten to get the fix good and tight with the last half
turn of the screw.
With screws threaded all the way down, there is a tendency for the batten to
rise slightly when the thread starts into the substrate and then be held
away by the screw thread.
Much harder to pull the batten in flush with the wall (or another piece of
wood).

Cheers

Dave R
--
No plan survives contact with the enemy.
[Not even bunny]

Helmuth von Moltke the Elder

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

In message , David WE Roberts
wrote

So older technology sometimes works better.

Or possibly use the newer technology products designed for the purpose.
http://www.jcpfixings.co.uk/data%20sheets/5_Ankerbolt.pdf

These are often recommended in other groups for fitting satellite dishes
to walls.

--
Alan
news2009 {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

"Alan" wrote in message
...
In message , David WE Roberts
wrote

So older technology sometimes works better.

Or possibly use the newer technology products designed for the purpose.
http://www.jcpfixings.co.uk/data%20sheets/5_Ankerbolt.pdf

These are often recommended in other groups for fitting satellite dishes
to walls.


Have some of these and they are great for fastening into concrete blocks
after a quick blast with the SDS drill.
However I am wary about using these in the fairly soft bricks of our 1930s
semi - I don't want to split the brick.
Squidgy wall plugs plus screws seem to be a more gentle approach.

Cheers

Dave R
--
No plan survives contact with the enemy.
[Not even bunny]

Helmuth von Moltke the Elder

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

"David WE Roberts" wrote:

[snip]

Have some of these and they are great for fastening into concrete blocks
after a quick blast with the SDS drill.
However I am wary about using these in the fairly soft bricks of our
1930s semi - I don't want to split the brick.
Squidgy wall plugs plus screws seem to be a more gentle approach.

In very soft brick wall plugs can cause the brick to break, particularly if
you need to drill within a couple of cm of an edge. The gentlest approach
is to use a non-expansion fitting such as a glued-in stud or a screw-in
anchor that does not use a plug. For work in ver old brickwork
conservationists seem to prefer masonry screws because the holes are much
smaller and the screw does not expand and cannot damage the brick.

These are the screws that I'm referring to.

http://dlrfasteners.com/products/dlr...ulti_monti.pdf

Available with countersunk heads, pan heads and hex.

On 08/10/2011 15:57, David WE Roberts wrote:

Oh, and another thing.
If you are fixing e.g. a piece of batten to a wall, with old style
screws the thread is in the wall and the shank is in the batten so the
screw shank can slide in the batten to get the fix good and tight with
the last half turn of the screw.
With screws threaded all the way down, there is a tendency for the
batten to rise slightly when the thread starts into the substrate and
then be held away by the screw thread.
Much harder to pull the batten in flush with the wall (or another piece
of wood).

I don't like old style screws but with either style I would have drilled
a clearance hole through the batten which eliminates the cited problem.

--
Roger Chapman