Andy

To my mind the power tool market has split into three groups; top brand
manufacturers - Bosch, Metabo, Makita, Hitachi etc, cheap & cheerfull;
Power Devil, JCB, Performance Power, Nu Tool etc. But the third group
is those stand alone or own label tools like B&Q Performance Pro,
Ryobi, Kress (Wickes), Excel (Homebase) etc.

These are often very good quality and carry a three year warranty,
making the spares issue redundant. We live in a replacement society
because, as you say, time is expensive.

Given that anyones time is expensive, it doesn't matter if you repair
something yourself or pay someone else to do it - you are going
backwards as soon as you start. Labour rates for repairing power tools
are upwards of =A330 per hour in my part of the world. Add a few parts
and the time taken to get it there, plus the loss of use and
replacement is much more cost effective.

Are you also suggesting that cheaper (not cheapest) tools are incapable
of doing a decent job? If I put up a few shelves, is the result any
different if I use a =A350 drill driver or a =A3200 one?

I'd also add that the volume retailers you critisise so much have
brought down the price of the top brand power tools you prefer. Were
those top brands maintaining a brand or ripping people off?

Dave

"Magician" wrote in message
oups.com...


Andy

To my mind the power tool market has split into three groups; top brand
manufacturers - Bosch, Metabo, Makita, Hitachi etc, cheap & cheerfull;
Power Devil, JCB, Performance Power, Nu Tool etc. But the third group
is those stand alone or own label tools like B&Q Performance Pro,
Ryobi, Kress (Wickes), Excel (Homebase) etc.

These are often very good quality and carry a three year warranty,
making the spares issue redundant. We live in a replacement society
because, as you say, time is expensive.


I would put Kress and the upper Ryobi's in the Makita bracket. Certainly
better than most DeWalts. BTW, Kress are repairable. I was talking to the
Wickes people who said if a Wickes pro (Kress) tool was defective it is sent
off for repair (downtime), while the DIY black range is just replaced
immediately with no downtime. Make you think which is the best approach.






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Doctor Evil wrote:

I would put Kress and the upper Ryobi's in the Makita bracket.

Yes, /you/ would, because /you/ have never used any of them!


--
Grunff

Yes, /you/ would, because /you/ have never used any of them!

Nothing like an ad hominum attack to further an intelligent discussion.

If you disagree with the gentlemans opinion, why don't you use rational
argument?

Magician wrote:
Yes, /you/ would, because /you/ have never used any of them!


Nothing like an ad hominum attack to further an intelligent discussion.

If you disagree with the gentlemans opinion, why don't you use rational
argument?

Spot the uk.d-i-y newbie!!?

I claim my £5

David

Magician wrote:
Yes, /you/ would, because /you/ have never used any of them!


Nothing like an ad hominum attack to further an intelligent discussion.

If you disagree with the gentlemans opinion, why don't you use rational
argument?


That's no gentleman, that's IMM.

I happen to agree with your 3-tier marketplace assertion, and I also
believe that some tools from the middle tier are well worth having. Many
of my power tools are in that category.

As for this being an ad hominem attack; it was nothing of the sort - he
stated "I would put Kress and the upper Ryobi's in the Makita bracket.".
This is not a logical argument, to which there can be a
counter-argument. It is a personal opinion, his personal opinion, no
more. To which I responded with my own personal opinion. Anyone who has
any familiarity with these power tools would not class Ryobi drills the
same as Makita or DeWalt. There is a very big difference.


--
Grunff

"Doctor Evil" wrote:

Tools from Lidle, now there is s novelty. I can see all the overall clad
men at the checks with their Lidle drills.

Your loss, there have been some amazing bargains there over the past
few years.


--

"Magician" wrote in message
oups.com...
Yes, /you/ would, because /you/ have never used any of them!

Nothing like an ad hominum attack to further an intelligent discussion.

If you disagree with the gentlemans opinion, why don't you use rational
argument?

Rational argument? There are about 6 or so know-it-alls here; common logic
has passed them by. Sad but true.



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"Grunff" wrote in message
...
Magician wrote:
Yes, /you/ would, because /you/ have never used any of them!


Nothing like an ad hominum attack to further an intelligent discussion.

If you disagree with the gentlemans opinion, why don't you use rational
argument?


That's no

snip babbling unprovoked personal attack



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Doctor Evil wrote:

That's no


snip babbling unprovoked personal attack


Ahh! Did I hut its feelings?


--
Grunff

"Grunff" wrote in message
...
Doctor Evil wrote:

That's no


snip babbling unprovoked personal attack

Ahh! Did I hut its feelings?

I have never felt a hut.



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Rational argument? There are about 6 or so know-it-alls here; common logic
has passed them by. Sad but true.

There is only 5, Adam, John, IMM, Doctor Evil & top gear.

Grunff wrote:


I had the 18V for a while, and was pretty happy with it until it
failed.
It developed play between the motor and the casing after 18 months
reasonably hard work, and went back for a refund. It is certainly a
better drill than PPPro etc., and significantly more torquey than an
18V
Ryobi.


Depends on the model of Ryobi, there are at least 3 different recent
18V models with the latest 1803 model having 55Nm max torque.

On 24 Feb 2005 02:25:49 -0800, "Magician"
wrote:

Andy

To my mind the power tool market has split into three groups; top brand
manufacturers - Bosch, Metabo, Makita, Hitachi etc, cheap & cheerfull;
Power Devil, JCB, Performance Power, Nu Tool etc. But the third group
is those stand alone or own label tools like B&Q Performance Pro,
Ryobi, Kress (Wickes), Excel (Homebase) etc.

I think yes and no to that - probably more although there is a
continuum.

There are brands that I would position above Bosch, Makita, Hitachi,
Metabo.

For example, there is Festool, Lamello, Lie-Nielsen and so on. These
are top end products with prices to match. You get a precise and
good quality product expected to last a lifetime.

Then I see the next tier as the Bosch, Makita and so on in certain
areas.

I basically almost ignore the Power Devil, JCB (who have prostituted
their brand and the others as of some use at their price point, can do
some level of a job if one is on a tight budget, but to be honest of
little interest to me at all. Poor comfort, longevity and so on for
serious use. I see B&Q, PPPoo, Ryobi, Kress and these others as
slightly, but perhaps only slightly better than these others. The
distribution model and backup is the same. Numbers game through a
warehouse. I don't care to play those games because to me they are
not worth playing. Why would I want to waste half a day at B&Q,
titting around with a piece of broken crap tool? Total waste of time
and effort.




These are often very good quality and carry a three year warranty,
making the spares issue redundant.

I'm sorry but I don't think that it does at all. A warranty is no
more than a convenience and marketing tool, when used in this way.
It's a total scam which is simply to facilitate the hapless customer
in to having enough confidence or gullibility to pay money for this
crap, in that if it breaks they get another or sopmething else for
three years. On month 36 and one day, if it breaks, in the bin it
goes. There are skips for them.

The branded manufacturers are now largely offering 3 year warranties
because they have the quality and economic model to do so and this
becomes a non issue.


We live in a replacement society
because, as you say, time is expensive.


Sorry, but I don't. I would rather get something decent in the
first place, if need be paying more for it and getting better value
and likely not having a problem. This strategy has worked for me to
goo cost effectiveness for many years. If there is a problem (and
there very rarely is, then the supplier fixes it. Simple as that.
And they do.





Given that anyones time is expensive, it doesn't matter if you repair
something yourself or pay someone else to do it - you are going
backwards as soon as you start. Labour rates for repairing power tools
are upwards of £30 per hour in my part of the world. Add a few parts
and the time taken to get it there, plus the loss of use and
replacement is much more cost effective.

If I buy something decent, the problems are less likely to occur in
the first place. If I pay good money for something and it doesn't
perform, the supplier gets it back or fixes it, or refunds. I don't
care whether they think they have a one year warranty , three or five.
If I think they have provided poor value for money, they have to deal
with it. Sorry but I don't accept ****ing around and time wasting and
as long as people who promise to do something do it, we get along
fine. If they don't, then they have an opportunity to fix it.
After all, what is unreasonable about asking somebody to do what they
have agreed to do when the product was sold. The strategy works
well, but only if the rules are established in writing at the outset.



Are you also suggesting that cheaper (not cheapest) tools are incapable
of doing a decent job? If I put up a few shelves, is the result any
different if I use a £50 drill driver or a £200 one?

I'm suggesting that it depends on the expectations of the person doing
the job and what he is looking for in the whole exercise. This
includes looking at the entire situation. If that is only putting up
a few shelves as a basic job then it doesn't matter perhaps. If it's
something more substantial and a day's work then the discussion is
quite different.



I'd also add that the volume retailers you critisise so much have
brought down the price of the top brand power tools you prefer. Were
those top brands maintaining a brand or ripping people off?


I am interested in dealing with certain volume retailers. I don't
think that the forcing down of prices and squeezing of margins is at
all healthy for manufacturer, retailer and ultimately the end
customer.

The right thing to do is to have sufficient price and margin at all
points to do a proper job. All the time that retailers are focussing
customers on the cheapest price and what appears to be a good deal but
is actually a really poor one for all concerned, Rome continues to
burn.




--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On 24 Feb 2005 00:09:35 +0100, Mark wrote:

"Magician"

Andy, with respect, you are missing the plot completely.

Poor boy has never been the same since the week at the Everest double
glazing sales conference. ;-(


When did you go to that? I wouldn't even think about this kind of
scam.





--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Kaiser" wrote in message
...
Rational argument? There are about 6 or so know-it-alls here; common
logic
has passed them by. Sad but true.

There is only 5, Adam, John, IMM, Doctor Evil & top gear.

You missed Icky the Firebobby.


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"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 24 Feb 2005 02:25:49 -0800, "Magician"
wrote:

Are you also suggesting that cheaper
(not cheapest) tools are incapable
of doing a decent job? If I put up a few
shelves, is the result any different if I
use a £50 drill driver or a £200 one?

I'm suggesting that it depends on the
expectations of the person doing
the job

What sort of hole in the wall should he expect?



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Andy Hall wrote:
This strategy has worked for me to
goo cost effectiveness for many years. If there is a problem (and
there very rarely is, then the supplier fixes it. Simple as that.
And they do.


This philosophy only works when the manufacturer/supplier stays in
business. In todays world, this is increasingly unlikely. The production
efficiency required to survive in a global market place cannot be
attained with low volume products and increasing overhead costs. Just to
pick up a piece of paper costs over £10 in todays world. Repairing a DIY
tool is totally uneconomic. Repairing professional tools is equally
uneconomic, both for the supplier and the user. If the supplier can
afford to repair the product , then the product is overpriced to start
with. A good example is Miele, a washer controller is about £250, from
Miele. It is almost exactly the same as the unit in a Hoover Logic
series washing machine, which is available for £50. Both units come from
the same component supplier for about £10. The customer believes he is
buying reliability, tosh. He's buying a marketing image, in which a high
initial selling price, supports the service operation. The days when any
European manufacturer produced a well engineered product IMO are long
gone, what you are left with is a marketing operation geared to minimum
production cost and maximum profitability. With a product production
life of 18 months, if you are lucky, and the necessity to resource all
your components every 2 years, because the supplier has disappeared,
service is a pipedream. Which manufacturer is going to shelf parts for
10 years supply? None!!

I recall your derogatory comments on not buying in Walmart, I
selectively do, as do most Americans that I know, from all levels of
society. Buying good value products is the mark of the intelligent user.
Buying over marketed/specified products puts you into the IMM category,
+ more money than sense!!

LOL

Regards
Capitol

On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 22:42:26 GMT, "Mark" wrote:

Lobster typed:

I've never used either a Makita or Erbauer personally: Andy, do you
really reckon the Makita 6228 will give "better results" than a hammer
action 18V Erbauer? (ie nothing to do with reliability or spares
availability)?


Don't know if you are still undecided but this may help
http://www.carmechanicsmag.co.uk/cgi...312&i=Erbauer_
ERB18CD

http://tinyurl.com/6m9r3

for a somewhat more objective view, at least they have tried them all.




Do you *really* believe that this is an *objective* view?

Some vague tests in a Car Mechanics magazine? What possible
relevance does this have? Where are the figures of the tests?

The best buy JCB at £40? This is a joke.


Next week the team will be writing about sailing dinghies.

Do you seriously want to base your purchase criteria on nonsense like
this?

Oh dear.........





--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Capitol" wrote in message
...


Andy Hall wrote:
This strategy has worked for me to
goo cost effectiveness for many years. If there is a problem (and
there very rarely is, then the supplier fixes it. Simple as that.
And they do.


This philosophy only works when the manufacturer/supplier stays in
business. In todays world, this is increasingly unlikely. The production
efficiency required to survive in a global market place cannot be
attained with low volume products and increasing overhead costs. Just to
pick up a piece of paper costs over £10 in todays world. Repairing a DIY
tool is totally uneconomic. Repairing professional tools is equally
uneconomic, both for the supplier and the user. If the supplier can
afford to repair the product , then the product is overpriced to start
with. A good example is Miele, a washer controller is about £250, from
Miele. It is almost exactly the same as the unit in a Hoover Logic
series washing machine, which is available for £50. Both units come from
the same component supplier for about £10. The customer believes he is
buying reliability, tosh. He's buying a marketing image, in which a high
initial selling price, supports the service operation. The days when any
European manufacturer produced a well engineered product IMO are long
gone, what you are left with is a marketing operation geared to minimum
production cost and maximum profitability. With a product production
life of 18 months, if you are lucky, and the necessity to resource all
your components every 2 years, because the supplier has disappeared,
service is a pipedream. Which manufacturer is going to shelf parts for
10 years supply? None!!

I recall your derogatory comments on not buying in Walmart,

....or Argos. A branded product from Harrods, Argos or a market stall still
gets the same service engineer calling, he doesn't put a top hat on fixing
your washing machine because you bought it from Harrods. You have to take
into account the Little Middle England mentality.

I selectively do, as do most Americans that I know, from all levels of
society. Buying good value products is the mark of the intelligent user.
Buying over marketed/specified products puts you into the IMM category,
+ more money than sense!!

IMM never advocated buying overpriced products. You must mean a different
IMM.



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"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 22:42:26 GMT, "Mark" wrote:

http://tinyurl.com/6m9r3

for a somewhat more objective view, at least they have tried them all.

Do you *really* believe that this is an *objective* view?

Some vague tests in a Car Mechanics magazine? What possible
relevance does this have? Where are the figures of the tests?

The best buy JCB at £40? This is a joke.

That is one of the best tests I have ever read. Very good indeed.



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"Lobster" wrote in message
...
Andy Hall wrote:
On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 21:18:18 GMT, Lobster
wrote:


I'm (still) in the market for a new cordless combi drill, and am coming
close to settling for an Erbauer, based on a combination of price vs
quality (as judged from uk.d-i-y reviews!)

I'm puzzled that the 14.4V model is priced 20 quid cheaper than the 18V
model, in the absence of any apparent special offers:

14.4V (100 GBP)
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...18841&id=64978

18V (80 GBP)
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...18841&id=71776

The 18V one seems to outperform the 14.V in every aspect but weight
(2.6kg vs 2.0kg) - is that the issue? or am I missing the obvious?


Oh dear - not only have I started yet another 'which drill?' thread; I've
kicked off another IMM vs .andy duel.... :-)

Don't buy either of these. You can get a Makita 14.4v 6228 with two
batteries for the same or little more money and have far better
results than with either of these unknown products.

I'd definitely really like a Makita; certainly money no object I'd
certainly go for one. Appreciate all the 'economy in the long run'
arguments, but I can't justify the outlay. One reason is risk of loss - I
often use my stuff away from home, carry it around in the car etc and
wouldn't be covered by insurance against theft.

I agree the 6228 is within my budget; however my drill will need to deal
with some masonry work, so I want hammer action which is why I'd
discounted it - I'd be looking at the Makita 8433, at 235 GBP or
thereabouts?

I've never used either a Makita or Erbauer personally: Andy, do you really
reckon the Makita 6228 will give "better results" than a hammer action 18V
Erbauer? (ie nothing to do with reliability or spares availability)?

David

I borrowed a 12V Makita 8411 from a friend a few years ago when we moved
house, as most of my tools were inaccessible. I was very impressed with the
hammer action and the torque for a 12volt drill.

I have used cheap battery drills like the Erbauer in the past and there is
just no comparison, batteries don't hold their charge as long, the trigger
switches don't operate smoothly, the chucks are rubbish and a good 12v drill
always seems to have more guts than a cheap 18v drill.

In fact if you look at this site, they have a 24v drill that looks identical
(apart from the colour) to the 24v Erbauer for under 50quid.
https://sslrelay.com/s83207888.onean...dex.shopscript

Andy Hall am typed:

On 24 Feb 2005 00:09:35 +0100, Mark wrote:

"Magician"

Andy, with respect, you are missing the plot completely.

Poor boy has never been the same since the week at the Everest double
glazing sales conference. ;-(


I wouldn't even think about this kind of
scam.

Will it fits in with your "Buy only the best and you won't regret it"
tunnelled vision.
Are you in any why related to Dimm, seems a certain indirect antonym
personality trait. :-)

--
Mark§

Andy Hall am typed:

On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 22:42:26 GMT, "Mark" wrote:

Lobster typed:

I've never used either a Makita or Erbauer personally: Andy, do you
really reckon the Makita 6228 will give "better results" than a
hammer action 18V Erbauer? (ie nothing to do with reliability or
spares availability)?


Don't know if you are still undecided but this may help

http://www.carmechanicsmag.co.uk/cgi...312&i=Erbauer_
ERB18CD

http://tinyurl.com/6m9r3

for a somewhat more objective view, at least they have tried them
all.




Do you *really* believe that this is an *objective* view?


They have at least tried them all, have you?
Your opinions are based purely on what you have read and a large dose of
egotism; I get a strong feeling you are the wrong sort of engineer.

--
Mark§

"Mark" wrote in message
...
Andy Hall am typed:

On 24 Feb 2005 00:09:35 +0100, Mark wrote:

"Magician"

Andy, with respect, you are missing the plot completely.

Poor boy has never been the same since the week at the Everest double
glazing sales conference. ;-(

I wouldn't even think about this kind of
scam.

Will it fits in with your "Buy only the best and you won't regret it"
tunnelled vision.
Are you in any why related to Dimm, seems a certain indirect antonym
personality trait. :-)

Dim Lin is a far eastern enchantress. Is Andy of Oriental extraction? He
does go for Japanese made products.


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On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 23:47:55 GMT, "Mark" wrote:

Andy Hall am typed:

On 24 Feb 2005 00:09:35 +0100, Mark wrote:

"Magician"

Andy, with respect, you are missing the plot completely.

Poor boy has never been the same since the week at the Everest double
glazing sales conference. ;-(


I wouldn't even think about this kind of
scam.

Will it fits in with your "Buy only the best and you won't regret it"
tunnelled vision.

It's exactly the opposite of tunnel vision.

Tunnel vision is buying purely on the basis of price and "features" as
presented by the retailers which in reality have little value.

I've described a whole list of purchase criteria which go beyond
price.

That cannot be decribed as tunnel vision......





--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 20:02:36 +0000, Capitol
wrote:



Andy Hall wrote:
This strategy has worked for me to
goo cost effectiveness for many years. If there is a problem (and
there very rarely is, then the supplier fixes it. Simple as that.
And they do.


This philosophy only works when the manufacturer/supplier stays in
business. In todays world, this is increasingly unlikely. The production
efficiency required to survive in a global market place cannot be
attained with low volume products and increasing overhead costs. Just to
pick up a piece of paper costs over £10 in todays world. Repairing a DIY
tool is totally uneconomic.

Here is the fundamental misconception - that a DIY tool is
automatically associated with "cheap".

If you mean a "DIY grade" tool as the volume retail outlets have
defined and their hapless customers have accepted, then I take your
point. The customers have been pushed into the assumption that
"DIY" = "cheap", from a premise that "DIY" = "primarily a money saving
exercise" and doing everything for the lowest possible cost.

I don't accept either premise as far as my own purpose of doing DIY is
concerned. The primary purposes for me are to achieve a better
standard of work and quality of outcome than bringing somebody in will
typically achieve, to be able to do it at my convenience and not
theirs and to be able to enjoy doing it. If saving of some money
happens in the equation, then fine, but it is not my primary
objective.

In order to achieve all of these points, I want to use good quality
tools and materials that are going to be pleasurable to use all day if
needed, and that will produce a good quality result when used
properly. I don't want to waste time having to go and wait in
queues at DIY stores to get failed cheap tools replaced whether they
have a three year warranty or not. That is a time wasting,
frustrating and pointless exercise which benefits nobody.


Repairing professional tools is equally
uneconomic, both for the supplier and the user. If the supplier can
afford to repair the product , then the product is overpriced to start
with.

Another misconception. If the tool is designed and manufactured
properly in the first place, then it is unlikely to need repair and
will produce a quality result. If it does need repair, then it will
be economic to do so. I would rather see the manufacturer build in
a margin to be able to provide that level of product and service,
than to build it down to a cut price and not have that facility.


A good example is Miele, a washer controller is about £250, from
Miele. It is almost exactly the same as the unit in a Hoover Logic
series washing machine, which is available for £50. Both units come from
the same component supplier for about £10. The customer believes he is
buying reliability, tosh. He's buying a marketing image, in which a high
initial selling price, supports the service operation.

Presumably you have never had a Miele product. I have had Hoover in
the past and I now have only Miele white goods. There is an
enormous difference in build quality and reliability.

The days when any
European manufacturer produced a well engineered product IMO are long
gone, what you are left with is a marketing operation geared to minimum
production cost and maximum profitability. With a product production
life of 18 months, if you are lucky, and the necessity to resource all
your components every 2 years, because the supplier has disappeared,
service is a pipedream. Which manufacturer is going to shelf parts for
10 years supply? None!!

This is precisely because people have been convinced by retailers that
buying down to a price rather than buying quality and longevity is the
right thing to do.

In fact I can easily get spares for my Miele washing machine (all of
them) and that is more than 10 years old.



I recall your derogatory comments on not buying in Walmart, I
selectively do, as do most Americans that I know, from all levels of
society. Buying good value products is the mark of the intelligent user.

Exactly. That means looking at *all* of the issues and not just the
price. That is the point of buying intelligently and not just on
price and scam warranties.



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 23:51:16 GMT, "Mark" wrote:



They have at least tried them all, have you?

Many of them, yes. I take a great deal of trouble when selecting a
power tool especially. If I am going to spend a couple of hundred
pounds on something, I research it carefully and try it out.

I don't just buy on price and magazine reviews. They are but a data
point.

Your opinions are based purely on what you have read and a large dose of
egotism; I get a strong feeling you are the wrong sort of engineer.

Certainly an engineer, but the right kind for my purposes.

I haven't said that my purchase criteria are appropriate for
everybody. If price is the primary and only objective, then choices
become much easier. If the overall equation is taken into account,
then much more care is required



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 20:02:36 +0000, Capitol
In order to achieve all of these points, I want to use good quality
tools and materials that are going to be pleasurable to use all day if
needed, and that will produce a good quality result when used
properly. I don't want to waste time having to go and wait in
queues at DIY stores

well don't go on Wednesdays....


Exactly. That means looking at *all* of the issues and not just the
price. That is the point of buying intelligently and not just on
price and scam warranties.

They are not scam warranties. They are fairly unambigous refund within 28
days and replace within 3 years offers, all achieved after a short queue if
you choose your time right, always assuming you can find the receipt which
is the key. Just try getting the Miele you purchased from an electrical
retailer repaired FOC after 1 year. Product law is too ambiguous to
guarantee that is a trivial excercise. As you are well aware it's the
retailer that implements the Sale of Goods requirements. Its probably
necessary at least to threaten and probably invoke consumer law, in itself a
time consuming process. Its not just you that thinks time is important.
I'm prepared to recognise there may me some quality in the Miele, but in
most electrical retailers? Pull the other one.

Jim A

Presumably you have never had a Miele product. I have had Hoover in
the past and I now have only Miele white goods. There is an
enormous difference in build quality and reliability.


Same here, superb equipment the missus is very pleased with hers

The days when any
European manufacturer produced a well engineered product IMO are long
gone, what you are left with is a marketing operation geared to minimum
production cost and maximum profitability. With a product production
life of 18 months, if you are lucky, and the necessity to resource all
your components every 2 years, because the supplier has disappeared,
service is a pipedream. Which manufacturer is going to shelf parts for
10 years supply? None!!


Don't suppose it's a good idea either to keep chucking the 3 PPro B&Q
drills I've bought then into the landfill. The Bosch ones are still
around after many years service...

--
Tony Sayer

On 24 Feb 2005 02:25:49 -0800, "Magician"
wrote:

Andy

To my mind the power tool market has split into three groups; top brand
manufacturers - Bosch, Metabo, Makita, Hitachi etc, cheap & cheerfull;
Power Devil, JCB, Performance Power, Nu Tool etc. But the third group
is those stand alone or own label tools like B&Q Performance Pro,
Ryobi, Kress (Wickes), Excel (Homebase) etc.

These are often very good quality and carry a three year warranty,
making the spares issue redundant. We live in a replacement society
because, as you say, time is expensive.

Hi,

Skil are quite good, they are EU made and come with a 2yr warranty and
spares availability.

cheers,
Pete.

In article , Andy Hall
wrote:
The best buy JCB at £40? This is a joke.

They also say of the £199 Bosch: "I'm afraid this is a case of BMW
syndrome. Not only does this tool out perform most others in the
group in torque output, it does it more smoothly and quietly. And
the ergonomics are spot on too. It fits your hand like a glove, and
the controls seem to find their way to the end of your fingers, as
if by magic. two gears, 15 torque settings, 13mm chuck, hammer mode,
two batteries and a fast charger ensure this is up to serious use."

So they're making exactly the same point to their readers that has
been made on this group many a time, that real excellence is
available but at a price. For some (I agree not all) people a £40
drill will be all they need. If I had owned a cordless drill in my
car mechanics days it would have spent its time drilling holes for
pop rivets and self-tapping screws, scarcely very taxing.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm

Andy Hall am typed:

snip
I haven't said that my purchase criteria are appropriate for
everybody


Great we are at getting somewhere, there are people on here that use tools
for a living or are into serious house renovation, clearly for them a £40
jcb is a joke tool which probably would not last the day/week out.
There are others that for whatever reason buy a battery drill to hang some
shelves and then leave the drill flat and in the garage for 18 months and
are disappointed that the batteries are now dead, ( my son-in-law a DeWALT)
for them the JCB thing could be appropriate,. And various other in-between
people were the quality of the tool should be matched to its use, and the
size of their pocket.
What I really disagree with is your inference that
You cant drill a round hole in the correct place or
Can't cut a straight mitre line twice
Using anything other then professional/industrial quality tools, and anyone
that does, must produce a lower quality job then you.
But then go on to suggest that you can drill holes in masonry with a
non-hammer battery drill ;-(

HTH :-)

--
Mark§

Andy Hall am typed:


Don't know if you are still undecided but this may help

http://www.carmechanicsmag.co.uk/cgi...312&i=Erbauer_
ERB18CD

http://tinyurl.com/6m9r3

for a somewhat more objective view, at least they have tried them
all.




Do you *really* believe that this is an *objective* view?

Some vague tests in a Car Mechanics magazine? What possible
relevance does this have? Where are the figures of the tests?

The best buy JCB at £40? This is a joke.


Their opinion, which did correctly IMHO identify both the Mekita and Bosch
at the top of the products tested and the Draper/Sealey at the bottom.
In your extensive drill research, have you really been to Argos to try one
of the JCB drills. ?
if so you do need to get a life....

--
Mark§

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 08:45:34 -0000, "Jim Alexander"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 20:02:36 +0000, Capitol
In order to achieve all of these points, I want to use good quality
tools and materials that are going to be pleasurable to use all day if
needed, and that will produce a good quality result when used
properly. I don't want to waste time having to go and wait in
queues at DIY stores

well don't go on Wednesdays....

I prefer not to go on *any* day.



Exactly. That means looking at *all* of the issues and not just the
price. That is the point of buying intelligently and not just on
price and scam warranties.

They are not scam warranties.

They are exactly a scam, calculated to a compromise between what is
sufficiently attractive for the nervous or gullible on the one hand,
what the store can negotiate with the vendor on the other in terms of
returns and the cost of operating the exchanges.

No thought whatever is given to what happens at month 37, any form of
support or any form of spares.





Just try getting the Miele you purchased from an electrical
retailer repaired FOC after 1 year.

There is absolutely no issue with that. Even though the law is
arranged around responsibility of the retailer, there are 5 or 10 year
manufacturer's warranties.

In the unlikely event of any issue, you call the service number in
Abingdon and give them the machine serial number or your postcode.
They already have details on their system. You can choose the day
for a service call and a 2 hour time slot. You can call their service
line after 1800 on the day before the call and receive the expected
time of the engineer visit. On the day of the visit, the engineer
will call as he leaves his previous customer to give an ETA.

All is done free of charge within the warranty.

Now you were saying......


Product law is too ambiguous to
guarantee that is a trivial excercise. As you are well aware it's the
retailer that implements the Sale of Goods requirements. Its probably
necessary at least to threaten and probably invoke consumer law, in itself a
time consuming process.

I seldom have difficulty after an appropriate discussion with somebody
of authority at the retailer. If there is any inconvenience or time
wasting, compensation is normally forthcoming as well.


Its not just you that thinks time is important.

Good. It is an important factor.


I'm prepared to recognise there may me some quality in the Miele, but in
most electrical retailers? Pull the other one.

Quite. This is the reason to choose manufacturer and retailer
carefully and appropriately



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 10:30:50 +0000, Pete C
wrote:

On 24 Feb 2005 02:25:49 -0800, "Magician"
wrote:

Andy

To my mind the power tool market has split into three groups; top brand
manufacturers - Bosch, Metabo, Makita, Hitachi etc, cheap & cheerfull;
Power Devil, JCB, Performance Power, Nu Tool etc. But the third group
is those stand alone or own label tools like B&Q Performance Pro,
Ryobi, Kress (Wickes), Excel (Homebase) etc.

These are often very good quality and carry a three year warranty,
making the spares issue redundant. We live in a replacement society
because, as you say, time is expensive.

Hi,

Skil are quite good, they are EU made and come with a 2yr warranty and
spares availability.

cheers,
Pete.

I agree. Quite liked by contractors. Generally not super
sophisticated, but good and solid.



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 18:03:34 GMT, "Mark" wrote:

Andy Hall am typed:

snip
I haven't said that my purchase criteria are appropriate for
everybody


Great we are at getting somewhere,

We always were.

there are people on here that use tools
for a living or are into serious house renovation, clearly for them a £40
jcb is a joke tool which probably would not last the day/week out.

Absolutely.

There are others that for whatever reason buy a battery drill to hang some
shelves and then leave the drill flat and in the garage for 18 months and
are disappointed that the batteries are now dead, ( my son-in-law a DeWALT)
for them the JCB thing could be appropriate,. And various other in-between
people were the quality of the tool should be matched to its use, and the
size of their pocket.

There is a spectrum, as you say. I have not suggested that one size
fits all.

I have pointed out that total cost of use and ownership goes beyond
purchase price and that it would be advisable to look at the whole
picture. Then it's reasonable to decide which pieces of the picture
are important.



What I really disagree with is your inference that
You cant drill a round hole in the correct place or
Can't cut a straight mitre line twice

I haven't said that at all. However, if one wants to drill 500 holes
and put in 500 screws (and that is possible in a DIY project) then
usability and quality can become important.



Using anything other then professional/industrial quality tools, and anyone
that does, must produce a lower quality job then you.

Depending on the type of tool and the application, that can certainly
be the case. There are certainly examples such as planes, biscuit
jointers, jig saws and so on where it absolutely is.


But then go on to suggest that you can drill holes in masonry with a
non-hammer battery drill ;-(

.... and so you can. It is perfectly possible to drill holes in
breeze blocks and non engineering bricks with a good quality non
hammer battery drill.


--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 18:21:45 GMT, "Mark" wrote:



Their opinion, which did correctly IMHO identify both the Mekita and Bosch
at the top of the products tested and the Draper/Sealey at the bottom.
In your extensive drill research, have you really been to Argos to try one
of the JCB drills. ?
if so you do need to get a life....


There's no need. Just pick up anything else in any DIY store at the
same price point. THey are all basically the same.
When looking some while ago, I picked one up and put it down again,
then went elsewhere. That takes very little time.



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 18:03:34 GMT, "Mark" wrote:

Andy Hall am typed:

snip
I haven't said that my purchase criteria are appropriate for
everybody


Great we are at getting somewhere,

We always were.

there are people on here that use tools
for a living or are into serious house renovation, clearly for them a £40
jcb is a joke tool which probably would not last the day/week out.

Absolutely.

There are others that for whatever reason buy a battery drill to hang
some
shelves and then leave the drill flat and in the garage for 18 months and
are disappointed that the batteries are now dead, ( my son-in-law a
DeWALT)
for them the JCB thing could be appropriate,. And various other
in-between
people were the quality of the tool should be matched to its use, and the
size of their pocket.

There is a spectrum, as you say. I have not suggested that one size
fits all.

I have pointed out that total cost of use and ownership goes beyond
purchase price and that it would be advisable to look at the whole
picture. Then it's reasonable to decide which pieces of the picture
are important.



What I really disagree with is your inference that
You cant drill a round hole in the correct place or
Can't cut a straight mitre line twice

I haven't said that at all.

You have. and clear implications that anything that doesn't cost £200 can't
do a good job and will break down every 2 weeks. Don't you feels ashamed,
especially after the roasting by many you have received.



_________________________________________
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On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 18:57:10 -0000, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:



You have. and clear implications that anything that doesn't cost £200 can't
do a good job and will break down every 2 weeks. Don't you feels ashamed,
especially after the roasting by many you have received.

I thought it was just IMM that was the ****, but clearly his alterego
has the same difficulty. Is it anticipated that Fat ******* will be
of the same ilk when he comes to life shortly?



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl