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#281
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#282
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"Doctor Evil" wrote in message ... See, you have got a sense of humour after all. Mr Chesse, I am the funniest person in the world. Why do you keep changing my name, one minute its Mr Cheese, then Mt Cheese and now Mr Chesse? |
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#283
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"Doctor Evil" wrote in message ... Mr Cheese, you are barking. I thought it would be easier for you to understand |
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#284
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wrote in message ups.com... Andy, it becomes a case of me having "strange ideas" or being divorced from reality. Can't say that I blame Reality if she has to put up with your strange ideas. |
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#285
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"Kaiser" wrote in message ... "Doctor Evil" wrote in message ... See, you have got a sense of humour after all. Mr Chesse, I am the funniest person in the world. Why do you keep changing my name, one minute its Mr Cheese, then Mt Cheese and now Mr Chesse? Mr Cheese, it just Cheese then. _________________________________________ Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server More than 120,000 groups Unlimited download http://www.usenetzone.com to open account |
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#287
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Kaiser wrote:
Headers don't prove a thing, different PC, different SP, different Newsreader, all those things can change a header. Personally I think it unlikely that Mike, is another fantasy creation of the poster AKA as IMM. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
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#288
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Mark wrote:
The more difficult - ie harder types of concrete or masonry will laugh at a hammer drill and masonry bit - you need SDS. Hmm perhaps you would like to explain to anyone still interested in this thread from a technical point of view, why this is so ? Insufficient energy per percussion... By way of comparison, the render on some parts of the outside of my house is so hard that if I stick a new 7mm masonry bit in my Bosch hammer drill, I can get a hole about 10mm deep in a couple of mins. Another 5 mins of drilling will get the bit knackered, and the hole wider, but not much deeper. A 7mm SDS drill bit in my SDS drill at about 1/2 speed will sink a hole straight through the render in 10 secs flat. Much the same story if you need to drill engineering bricks. If you need to drill hard masonry with any regularity then SDS is the only way to go. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
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#289
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wrote:
When I confront you, I'm "diverting the discussion into an ad hominem attack" but when you call IMM a "****"... what exactly is that? A slang expression for the female pudenda... (You will probably find IMM has thrown most people on this group a wide variety of different insults) Most people on this list would agree that the DeWalt was expensive - in realtion to a spread of prices for "common" biscuit jointers. Quick survey of some online shops: Ferm £30 SIP £52 Freud £100 Rexon £150 DeWalt £168 Bosch £177 Makita £197 Lamello Classic £248 Lamello Top £470 Looks like "mid range" is not an unfair description... mid to high would also fit. Certainly not top end though. But you have to compare it to an esoteric Lamello. Who invented the technology... You say that I'm missing the point and assuming DIY is a limited range of activities. Well, I think I'm using DIY in the sense that most people would understand it. If you're making fine furniture to a high standard, isn't that what most people would call cabinet making and not DIY? What about my doing a loft conversion, or Rick building a house... is that not also DIY, or have we crossed the line into being builders? If so, does that disqualify our recommendation? You say that if I don't view the area broadly, I shouldn't denigrate others who do. But denigrating others is what you do when you say that Ferm is kak, DeWalt is kak, only Lamello is good enough. Saying Ferm is kak seems fair enough... I have two bits of Ferm kit, they serve a purpose, but they are a bit rough in a number of areas. From listening to the owners, I get the impression that DeWalt is variable, some stuff seems top end and worthy of their (former) reputation, some seems to be rebadged B&D kit with a higher price tag. Not used Lamello myself, but the couple of folks I have spoken to who have, rate their biscuit jointers as the best. You say that I think the sole objective of DIY is too save money. Then wouldn't I recommend everyone buy Challenge from argos and have done with it? Which biscuit jointer do you recommend, and why, Mike? -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
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#290
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On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 02:04:26 +0000, John Rumm
wrote: Enough words have probably been spent on this subject, so I have a proposal for a way to limit the number of times we need to have this discussion in the future.... Thus: New section for the FAQ, "How to choose a power tool". We start off with the gamut of possible views from "buy the best quality at any cost", to "buy several of the cheapest". Take in the options for "one time job disposable tools", and "balanced approach based on likely usage etc". Give each category a number. Then when someone posts a question of the type "What is the best nnnn?" we can direct them to the FAQ and ask which thought process/pocket depth most closely matches yours? When can then suggest answers fitting that viewpoint (or more importantly) not suggest in cases where we don't believe the viewpoint is valid. We can also include reference to our own "Tool Attitude Type" in responses so that it is clear where we are coming from. What does the panel think? I am happy to have a lash at a draft of some of the words to get the ball rolling if it is felt it would help. I think that this is a very good idea, John. I would suggest having some general sections on principles of selection, and then some others on a few tool types. Jig saws spring to mind, because several of us had had the impression that they were universally worthless until we found good products such as Bosch. It probably doesn't make sense to get into product specifics because a) it will depend on what the person is looking for and their purchasing criteria, b) will change with time. There are a few "truisms" that do seem to hold for a reasonably long period of time, e.g. Makita makes good cordless drills, Bosch has good jig saws, Hitachi makes good circular saws and so on. Typically that doesn't change all that quickly. However, all manufacturers periodically have an outstanding good product and sometimes they have a dud. I think it should be reasonably easy to come up with something that provides useful information while not requiring too much maintenance which probably wouldn't happen. -- ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
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#291
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On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 02:04:26 +0000, John Rumm
wrote: Sure we all have pet brands and solutions. I also know why Andy (and for that matter IMM) dismiss some classes of product without consideration. When looking for a tool of a type that I've never had before, I begin by giving my amount of use and expectation of what I will need to achieve a lot of thought. This helps me to select whether I am looking for low, mid or high end. For example, when I bought an angle grinder, it was a Bosch green one at the lower end of mid range. I don't use it that much and it does a good and reliable job. In most cases, I tend to leave out the very top and very bottom ends but do sanity check them. Then I look at which manufacturers have a consistently good track record for the given tool type. From that it becomes pretty easy to narrow the selection to manufacturers and price points and to end up with a short list. I have no difficulty with Andy saying "This is what I would do and here is why", This is what I try to do. I don't believe Andy is always right. Or myself or anyone else for that matter. I have found it is difficult to achieve anything of value and never be wrong or make mistakes. While I get the feeling he and I share similar views on many things, I also get the feeling that he is on occasion perhaps more extreme in those views. In some cases yes. For me, good service and backup are extremely important and this means doing it properly, not by swap and disposal. I can fully accept that there are scenarios where disposal and replacement are the reasonable solution. I don't like to buy power tools on that basis. I want to be able to buy spares or get products fixed. Typically I find that if that infrastructure is in place, the product has been made to a good standard anyway and the need doesn't arise very often. I am very intolerant of poor customer service and in particular of retailers attempting to slippery shoulder their responsibilities. On that, I am unapologetically clear. I always take the position of expecting people to do what they say they are going to do. After all, they are perfectly happy to make those promises at time of sale. Sometimes I even go to the trouble of pointing out to somebody about overpromising when I suspect that they may not be able to deliver. However, once all is agreed and money changes hands, that's it - I do expect to get what has been agreed, and usually that means hassle and time waste free continuous use of a product for a reasonable period of time. Sometimes something goes wrong and a fix is required. Then I am very pleased if the supplier makes the effort to fix the problem, bur I am looking to them to do that quickly and expeditiously and without my needing to push them. I won't accept that fixing a problem is somebody else's problem - e.g. retailers saying that the manufacturer is to blame or they have to send the item to that place for repair. If something is dependent on a third party for a fix, then I don't believe that that absolves the supplier from responsibility (and neither does the law). The supplier can always fix the problem, even if that means refund or replace. If a supplier makes reasonable effort to do what they said that they would do at the outset or something close to it then I seldom push them on compensating me for lost time and cost. However, if their attitude is markedly different to what was promised, I will go for the throat. Some people feel that it is OK to have a situation of a big gap between promise and deliver, perhaps through not wanting confrontation. I simply don't subscribe to that school of thought and don't feel that it is unreasonable. -- ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
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#292
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The message
from "Dave Plowman (News)" contains these words: The ones I saw were all BMC dealers and sold the lot. Or Austin/Morris dealers. On becoming BMC Austin and Morris dealers merged very quickly. The pieces are coming together. If you remember this as a car buyer you're an old man, which accounts for the fact that you can't actually do anything DIY anymore, but sit in your sheltered home and surf the net for your 'opinions'. BMC - basically the amalgamation between Austin and the Nuffield group took place in the early '50s. So if about 20, that makes you 80 odd. Not so long ago dIMM claimed to have been a child much later than that. I can't now recall whether it was the 60s or 70s but if true in neither case could he be likely to have any practical experience of buying a brand new 1100 (discontinued 1974) of any flavour. Perhaps you could ask your nurse to reduce your medication before posting? I am of the opinion that the problem is that he *isn't* taking his medication. -- Roger |
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#293
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The message
from John Rumm contains these words: If you need to drill hard masonry with any regularity then SDS is the only way to go. If you have a hard stone house drilling holes with a normal hammer drill is likely to reduce some people to tears. A SDS drill is a revelation. -- Roger |
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#294
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"Andy Hall" wrote in message ... On 2 Mar 2005 14:31:01 -0800, wrote: It seems to me that it's you who has the issue here. Firstly I have never claimed or even given the impression that I am always right. Pehaps the problem is in the message and how it is received. Perhaps the concern is that the group gets hijacked by an interminable moronic thread because two people are at it, yes two and both insistant on having the final say so. I know there is an issue that in order to avoid misguiding those looking for info perhaps moronic post should be countered but the way it goes I don't think it works. Personally when you forthrightly stated warranties on cheapos were scam warranties I objected because in my personal experience that's not the case. A few examples, PP planer switch went intermittant, replaced without question. I was planing Fermacel edges so a cheapo was definately what I wanted. Challenge sander just kind of wandered over the surface unlike my Bosch which had shamefully packed up. Refunded without question by Argos is spite of it showing evidence of use. So no sign of scam warranty there. Neither is it always the case that cheapos are crap. Lidl 18V cordless drill, well not needed the warranty yet as its been a good buy and seems sound electrically and mechanically though the batteries are not brilliant but there are 2 and they still charge more quickly than they discharge in use. When my Lidl kettle leaked, refunded without question. So no sign a of scam warranty there either. It was my Makita drill that packed up. OK perhaps I should have replaced the brushes earlier but since useful as it was it was overpowered for SDS drilling of 8mm holes and underpowered for chiselling and core-cutting, not a criticism but a recognition, I now find that my new £14.99 cheapo drill is perfectly adequate for 8mm holes in masonry. Jim A |
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#295
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wrote in message
ups.com... I have just tuned into this thread and at last someone is attacking the IMM/Dr Evil bashers. I renovate houses for a living, after starting off doing it part time. I install all the plumbing myself, after bad experiences with plumbers. I look into this group a bit and mainly use Google to access some very useful info. To me, one of the most valuable contributors is IMM. He is highly knowledgeable on heating and water. How anyone can mock or counter his views I find amazing. He has helped me out of many corners and doesn't know it as I have gained the information from Google, and frequently gives a different view that is simple and cost effective. When IMM goes absent for a few weeks many people ask where he, as Fred recently did, as he is highly appreciated by many people here. Some we don't want to be hounded out. The first problem I was helped with was when IMM suggested using a combination cylinder heated by a combi and the combi water part only heated the shower for high pressure. I would never have thought of this in a million years. I put the combination cylinder in the boarded loft which added another cupboard, and value to the house. Plumbers were suggesting cylinders, power shower pumps and plastic tanks and all sorts of old hat suggestions. IMM is mocked here for suggesting installing two cheap combis to zone off the heating in a house and give higher water flows. I have took his suggestion on board of using two Worcester Bosch Junior combis and combining the outlets of each for the bath, with the result being a cheap installation that is very neat and simple, supplying a bath, two showers and splits upstairs and downstairs into independent heating zones with a programmer stat on each. Any other method would have cost me about £1,500 extra, not to mention the time I saved. I instructed the estate agent to mention the independent heating of upstairs and downstairs and the powerful showers to viewers. The combis are in a downstairs "cloakroom" consuming little room and very neat to look at. This cloakroom would have been taken up with a large cylinder otherwise. The cloakroom added value to the house. The house sold within a week getting the asking price for the first time, and the split heating system and cloakroom added to its appeal. I have saved IMMs recent post on the combination cylinder with a quick recovery coil and a shower coil. I never knew these shower coils existed, so this maybe useful for the next house. I inquired about shower coil cylinders at the local merchants and no one had heard of them, even the plumbers waiting to be served. Before I lurked on this group I never knew much about thermal stores, heat banks or that square thermal stores are available or Powermaxes and Istores. What I do I prefer is packaged systems. The more inside one white box the better for me and the buyer. I have noted the Gledhill cylinders which are in neat square boxes with the pumps inside. In the next house I may install full length body jet showers as these are now a definite attraction and sell a house or flat quicker being viewed as therapeutic and fun. High pressure and large flows are needed. I don't want excessively large space consuming cylinders to take up space, which means I will be back for advise when the time comes. Another point I think may be an added attraction for quick selling, is instant hot water at the taps using a secondary circulation loop. I didn't know a combi could have secondary circulation. IMMs posts have been saved on this point. I had never heard of refinished Fermacell wallboards until I read one of IMMs posts and now I use this when building en-suite shower rooms. Ever tried to get a plasterer? Andy has gained the respect of some regulars. He just hasn't ascended to godhood yet and there are people prepared to point out when he's wrong. IMM/Dr Evil has already been elevated to that status by those who do appreciate his knowledge and advise. http://tinyurl.com/57d9h Long may IMM stay. And like Fred I now have to Google on IMM and Dr Evil to get information. For interest, the points which I find sell a house or flat in the more upmarket areas of north and north west London a good doors, especially the front door. good door handles as people touch these on entering good quality shower mixer with high pressure good quality mixer taps good quality shower fittings. all white large tiled bathroom. ventilator/halogen light over the shower radiators not conspicuous. If they have to be then try to have a designer radiator. Kickspace heater in the kitchen eliminating a radiator. (Instruct estate agent to inform viewers it gently blows hot air over your feet in the morning) heated towel rail in the bathroom. en-suite shower and toilet room off the main bedroom (If one can be fitted) good light kitchen and maybe designer label, like Neff, for appliances on show. Integrated out of sight appliances can be cheaper models. seating area in the kitchen if possible. (this is a very good selling point) laminate floors (not in kitchen or bathroom) and not light beech colour which turns people off. all painted cream. Sarah Beany is right, as it does work. nice modern artwork on the walls, especially in the hall as people enter. An attractive light fitted bedroom that can take a large bed downlighters in the right places, as in the hall, giving a good first impression, kitchen and bathroom. chrome or stainless sockets over the kitchen worktops Tidy and plain gardens with broad leaf plants (can be in pots around the perimiter and front door as no time to grow them) if a cylinder is an airing cupboard, then pipes and zone valves must be neat and back against the walls. no visible pipes, except in airing cupboards no visible plastic pipes. no visible wires, except in airing cupboards and then in plastic conduit. no visible hot water cylinders if possible. no visible consumer units. no dark wood. no gloss paint. Many of these individual points may appear trivial and not worth doing. They are not trivial, contributing to a complete whole that both seller and buyer gain from, and they do add value and sell a place quickly. Having many thousands of pounds locked in in a property that is laying for six months unsold can be devastating. |
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#296
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#297
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In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote: BMC - basically the amalgamation between Austin and the Nuffield group took place in the early '50s. Manufacturing yes. Dealerships no. If you read the histories of BMC one of the various reasons for its slide was the power of the dealers, unlike Ford who IIRC had a policy of not allowing any dealership chain to take more than x% of its production (where x was a very small number) so that Ford controlled its dealers rather than the other way round. "Rather than tackling these issues head-on – something that really should have been done years previously – Harriman acceded to the wishes of the Nuffield dealers, and agreed to release ADO16 [1100] just as a Morris model initially. An Austin version would appear only after a sufficiently long delay. This sop to the dealers may have seemed like a good idea at the time as a way of pacifying any dissenting voices, but it undoubtedly cost BMC sales" http://www.austin-rover.co.uk/index.htm?ado16storyf.htm "As Morris dealers had first bite at the cherry with the 1100, Austin dealers were first to get the new big car [1800] with the Morris version making its debut in 1966" http://www.landcrab.net/mainframes/main_production.htm -- Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm |
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#298
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"John Rumm" wrote in message ... Kaiser wrote: Headers don't prove a thing, different PC, different SP, different Newsreader, all those things can change a header. Personally I think it unlikely that Mike, is another fantasy creation of the poster AKA as IMM. IMM has never created fantasies. _________________________________________ Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server More than 120,000 groups Unlimited download http://www.usenetzone.com to open account |
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#299
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Mark wrote:
Insufficient energy per percussion... So the criteria of a SDS chuck in itself Is irrelevant, otherwise we would never been able to drill a hole in hard masonry before its invention. I was using the term SDS as a shorthand for the whole SDS Drill rather than just the chuck. This seems to be a bit of a moot point however since I am not aware of any conventional drill that use a SDS chuck but are not also accompanied by the SDS style hammer mechanism. Obviously (before im corrected) if you increase the percussion energy beyond a certain point, a drill bit in a 3jaw chuck will slip and rotate, It goes a bit beyond that. One of the gains in hammer efficency on the SDS chuck is the fact that the chuck itself is not "hammered" - i.e. it stays put, and the drill bit (which is free to slide in and out of the chuck) cops the full force of the hammer. but SDS does not define the suitability of the drill for the job. If you mean the chuck on its own, then no. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
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#300
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"John Rumm" wrote in message ... wrote: When I confront you, I'm "diverting the discussion into an ad hominem attack" but when you call IMM a "****"... what exactly is that? A slang expression for the female pudenda... (You will probably find IMM has thrown most people on this group a wide variety of different insults) IMM has only ever responded in kind. But denigrating others is what you do when you say that Ferm is kak, DeWalt is kak, only Lamello is good enough. Saying Ferm is kak seems fair enough... I have two bits of Ferm kit, they serve a purpose, but they are a bit rough in a number of areas. That doesn't mean they should not be even looked at as Andy proclaims. _________________________________________ Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server More than 120,000 groups Unlimited download http://www.usenetzone.com to open account |
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#301
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"Andy Hall" wrote in message ... On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 02:04:26 +0000, John Rumm wrote: Enough words have probably been spent on this subject, so I have a proposal for a way to limit the number of times we need to have this discussion in the future.... Thus: New section for the FAQ, "How to choose a power tool". We start off with the gamut of possible views from "buy the best quality at any cost", to "buy several of the cheapest". Take in the options for "one time job disposable tools", and "balanced approach based on likely usage etc". Give each category a number. Then when someone posts a question of the type "What is the best nnnn?" we can direct them to the FAQ and ask which thought process/pocket depth most closely matches yours? When can then suggest answers fitting that viewpoint (or more importantly) not suggest in cases where we don't believe the viewpoint is valid. We can also include reference to our own "Tool Attitude Type" in responses so that it is clear where we are coming from. What does the panel think? I am happy to have a lash at a draft of some of the words to get the ball rolling if it is felt it would help. I think that this is a very good idea, John. What? It's a moving target. You would just say, buy Makita and more Makita. As Mike says, the poor ******* who is broke after buying his first hose, should buy a Makita to do the job around the house? You are just plainly unobjective when it come to this point. _________________________________________ Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server More than 120,000 groups Unlimited download http://www.usenetzone.com to open account |
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#302
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"Roger" wrote in message k... The message from "Dave Plowman (News)" contains these words: The ones I saw were all BMC dealers and sold the lot. Or Austin/Morris dealers. On becoming BMC Austin and Morris dealers merged very quickly. The pieces are coming together. If you remember this as a car buyer you're an old man, which accounts for the fact that you can't actually do anything DIY anymore, but sit in your sheltered home and surf the net for your 'opinions'. BMC - basically the amalgamation between Austin and the Nuffield group took place in the early '50s. So if about 20, that makes you 80 odd. Not so long ago dIMM claimed to have been a child much later than that. I can't now recall whether it was the 60s or 70s but if true in neither case could he be likely to have any practical experience of buying a brand new 1100 (discontinued 1974) of any flavour. Perhaps you could ask your nurse to reduce your medication before posting? I am of the opinion that the problem is that he *isn't* taking his medication. Roger, how is the voluntary works going? Have those volunteers made any impression with you yet? _________________________________________ Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server More than 120,000 groups Unlimited download http://www.usenetzone.com to open account |
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#303
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#304
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On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:06:15 -0000, "Jim Alexander"
wrote: "Andy Hall" wrote in message .. . On 2 Mar 2005 14:31:01 -0800, wrote: It seems to me that it's you who has the issue here. Firstly I have never claimed or even given the impression that I am always right. Pehaps the problem is in the message and how it is received. I simply try to be as clear as possible. I can't be responsible for how people choose to interpret what is said. Personally when you forthrightly stated warranties on cheapos were scam warranties I objected because in my personal experience that's not the case. OK, let me be more specific about what I meant. I didn't say or even mean to imply that the retailer wouldn't honour the warranty by exchanging the product within the specified period. My point was that the approach is a scam because exchange is usually the *only* remedy that they have for many of these own/anonymous products. This means that if the thing breaks within the warranty period, a replacement or refund happens without questions asked unless there is evidence of misuse - and perhaps even then. My issue is what happens after that - e.g. in months 13, 25 or 37 and beyond. There is no service organisation, no spares backup and no means of repair in most cases. In effect the only option is to buy a new product. I have a number of issues with this approach: 1) The retailer does not make it clear to potential customers what the reality of the situation is. There are helplines (which in reality are a simple call centre that achieves little) and apparently attractive warranties. They don't have notices by he products or in the manuals that the arrangement is replacement only, that there is not real support and that there is no provision for repair or spares after the end of warranty. Many times I have seen customers at the returns counter in DIY stores having brought back a product out of warranty and being told that they can't have a replacement but will have to buy a new one. The look of astonishment on some people's faces has been a picture. They have assumed that because there is a seemingly attractive warranty, that the manufacturer is taking his support responsibilities seriously. Nothing is further from the truth. The fact that the retailer is not open about this is, in my view, a complete and utter scam and I feel that legislation should be passed such that retailers are required to provide precise details of the nature of the support during and after warranty. It is very apparent that a significant proportion of customers are taken in by what is basically a cynical marketing an distribution mechanism with a certain predicted return rate. I believe that this is fundamentally wrong. 2) If I am sharp enough to figure out the situation, my buying decision becomes more complicated. If I choose the own label product with N year replacement support, I have to take a view on how long the product is likely to last after that. Since many of these products are built down to a price and sold on features with a build quality adjusted to achieve better than a certain return rate, I have to take a fairly conservative to pessimistic view on longevity after the warranty expires. For practical purposes, I have to consider that the product is written down to zero and living on borrowed time after the end of the warranty. On the other hand, if I buy a product of better build quality and with availability of spares and proper service then I have more options available to me after the end of any warranty. With a better build quality, there is a better chance that the product won't need repair and spares for rather longer anyway which further reduces the expected cost of ownership. When I also factor in the quality of use, absence of messing around factor and stronger position with the retailer in the event of a problem, it becomes easy to justify a higher purchase price. All of this is before one gets into the ecological soundness or otherwise of the throw-away mentality. A few examples, PP planer switch went intermittant, replaced without question. I was planing Fermacel edges so a cheapo was definately what I wanted. Challenge sander just kind of wandered over the surface unlike my Bosch which had shamefully packed up. Refunded without question by Argos is spite of it showing evidence of use. So no sign of scam warranty there. Neither is it always the case that cheapos are crap. Lidl 18V cordless drill, well not needed the warranty yet as its been a good buy and seems sound electrically and mechanically though the batteries are not brilliant but there are 2 and they still charge more quickly than they discharge in use. When my Lidl kettle leaked, refunded without question. So no sign a of scam warranty there either. This is not the point that I was making. That was all about what happens after the warranty has expired and the fact that the retailers don't make the situation clear. -- ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
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#305
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On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 12:36:01 -0000, "Doctor Evil"
wrote: What? It's a moving target. Obviously, which is why I went on to point out that there was no point in including specifics on models. You would just say, buy Makita and more Makita. That wasn't the point at all. It is noticable and obvious that certain manufacturers tend to have good track records on certain tool types. I gave examples of that. It is therefore reasonable, when putting together a purchasing short list to factor that in. I specifically pointed out that sometimes manufacturers have a dud design, even in a product type in which they normally excell. It doesn't often happen, but when it does, the product is either fixed or killed quickly. As Mike says, the poor ******* who is broke after buying his first hose, should buy a Makita to do the job around the house? Depending on the *complete* circumstances. Once again, you are coming back to the oversimplistic view that purchase price is the only factor to consider. I will accept that if somebody has just bought their first house that money may be tight. However, if one looks at a bigger picture, it can be very easy to justify investment on a good quality tool. For example, it may well be that because he has bought said house that he works a lot of hours to produce extra income to fund its purchase, leaving less free time. It may also be that work is required to be done to the house. Taking these together, maximising productivity by choosing a product that is unlikely to have problems, which is well controlled and comfortable to use can be a good way to achieve what is required. In that scenario, spending more money for a something that fits these crtieria can be a sound and sensible investment, even if it doesn't equate to paying the lowest price. You are just plainly unobjective when it come to this point. Actually I'm highly objective and tend to look at a wide range of issues. -- ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
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Doctor Evil wrote:
Saying Ferm is kak seems fair enough... I have two bits of Ferm kit, they serve a purpose, but they are a bit rough in a number of areas. That doesn't mean they should not be even looked at as Andy proclaims. Andy said he would not look at them, which given his buying criteria seems fair enough. I don't recall him saying you or anyone else couldn't though. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
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Doctor Evil wrote:
What? It's a moving target. You would just say, buy Makita and more Makita. As Mike says, the poor ******* who is broke after buying his first hose, should buy a Makita to do the job around the house? Given that the whole purpose of my suggestion is to encompase all the various opinions, and to lay out pros and cons of each, you are more than welcome to submit your formula for power tool selection. I was not proposing to weight any particular method as better or worse than any other - each have merits. If a potential buyer knows what criteria they are buying on, they can solicit advice that is compatible with that. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
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"Andy Hall" wrote in message ... On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 12:36:01 -0000, "Doctor Evil" wrote: What? It's a moving target. Obviously, which is why I went on to point out that there was no point in including specifics on models. You would just say, buy Makita and more Makita. That wasn't the point at all. It is noticable and obvious that certain manufacturers tend to have good track records on certain tool types. I gave examples of that. It is therefore reasonable, when putting together a purchasing short list to factor that in. I specifically pointed out that sometimes manufacturers have a dud design, even in a product type in which they normally excell. It doesn't often happen, but when it does, the product is either fixed or killed quickly. As Mike says, the poor ******* who is broke after buying his first hose, should buy a Makita to do the job around the house? Depending on the *complete* circumstances. Once again, you are coming back to the oversimplistic view that purchase price is the only factor to consider. Not at all. You buy the tool to suit the job. Buying a £100 Makita to sit in the cupboard all year is a really silly idea. Then there is the point of the throw away society of three Ferm/Challege Extreme, etc for the price of one Makita SDS, with these products having long guarantees for many of them. Buy two, if one breaks pick up another and still going and still lots of change in your pocket. You are just plainly unobjective when it come to this point. Actually I'm highly objective and tend to look at a wide range of issues. Don't let the policeman hear you...... _________________________________________ Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server More than 120,000 groups Unlimited download http://www.usenetzone.com to open account |
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"Andy Hall" wrote in message ... On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:06:15 -0000, "Jim Alexander" wrote: This is not the point that I was making. That was all about what happens after the warranty has expired and the fact that the retailers don't make the situation clear. So, surprise surprise neatly full circle back your disigenuity about Miele warranty and your insatiable desire for the final say so, just like the other one. What I was saying, mainly, was that the retailer of *any* product, quality or cheapo, washes his hands after the expiry of the sold warranty whether that is 12, 24 or 36 months and where the extended element is an manufacturers extension, almost certainly after the unwritten "sale of goods" period expires after 12 months. I personally have no expectation of redress after the sold warranty period expires and that is factored into the purchasing decision, nor in my frequent passages through DIY sheds have I ever been aware of customers seeking redress over out of sold warranty cheapo power tools. As for the implication that my fellow cheapo or non Miele users have no concern for the environment, well that's the sort of arrogant assertion which is responsible for some of the flak flying in your direction at the moment. Thought you avoided DIY sheds anyway. Jim A |
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On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 14:13:57 -0000, "Doctor Evil"
wrote: Not at all. You buy the tool to suit the job. Exactly Buying a £100 Makita to sit in the cupboard all year is a really silly idea. Why do you make the assumption that that would happen? This is another stereotype of yours, similar to the one about DIY equating to cheap. Then there is the point of the throw away society of three Ferm/Challege Extreme, etc for the price of one Makita SDS, with these products having long guarantees for many of them. Buy two, if one breaks pick up another and still going and still lots of change in your pocket. I'm not going to waste my time having that discussion with you. I've explained the reasoning behind why I won't go down that path and that's that. You are just plainly unobjective when it come to this point. Actually I'm highly objective and tend to look at a wide range of issues. Don't let the policeman hear you...... Or especially the policemen's helmets....?? -- ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
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On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 14:17:36 -0000, "Jim Alexander"
wrote: "Andy Hall" wrote in message .. . On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:06:15 -0000, "Jim Alexander" wrote: This is not the point that I was making. That was all about what happens after the warranty has expired and the fact that the retailers don't make the situation clear. So, surprise surprise neatly full circle back your disigenuity about Miele warranty and your insatiable desire for the final say so, just like the other one. I was simply clarifying an earlier point to avoid misunderstanding. What I was saying, mainly, was that the retailer of *any* product, quality or cheapo, washes his hands after the expiry of the sold warranty whether that is 12, 24 or 36 months and where the extended element is an manufacturers extension, almost certainly after the unwritten "sale of goods" period expires after 12 months. OK. I don't disagree that the retailer would *like* to do that. If the product is low end, then he can reasonably make that argument. If it is higher end, then I can reasonably make the argument, and have, that he owns the problem for a reasonable period of time up to the 6 year statute of limitations. At that point, it is a matter of negotiation and if the retailer and I disagree then I have the option of taking legal action against the retailer and have done. The notion of a 12 month warranty is a fiction that is unsupported in consumer legislation. If the manufacturer wishes to provide or sell through the retailer an extended warranty, it is merely a convenience, but does not absolve the retailer of his prime responsibility. I personally have no expectation of redress after the sold warranty period expires and that is factored into the purchasing decision, nor in my frequent passages through DIY sheds have I ever been aware of customers seeking redress over out of sold warranty cheapo power tools. This is one of the exact points. I would have no expectation of redress after the end of warranty on a private labelled inexpensive product sold by a DIY store. However, this is not where I consider the scam to be. My point is that there is usually no support, repair or sparing available after the warranty period on these products even if I am prepared to pay. I am denied that option and the only choice that I am left with is to buy a replacement. That situation is not made clear at the outset, and it should be. If I buy a quality product and consider that it has unreasonably failed after any notional warranty period that the retailer or manufacturer may give, then I will certainly push the retailer on that and have done successfully. In almost all cases, the situation doesn't arise, and spares or repairs are more typically needed at what I would consider to be a reasonable time after purchase. I then have the option to pursue that path, but I don't necessarily expect the retailer to be involved in that either commercially or logistically. If they are and offer a good service, then I am much more likely to buy from them in the future, however. As for the implication that my fellow cheapo or non Miele users have no concern for the environment, well that's the sort of arrogant assertion which is responsible for some of the flak flying in your direction at the moment. I specifically avoided making an issue of that and leave it as a matter for the individual as I think is appropriate for most issues like this Thought you avoided DIY sheds anyway. There are occasions when they are of use, but I find visiting them about as pleasurable as a visit to IKEA on a Saturday, so understandably avoid if I can. -- ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
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"Andy Hall" wrote in message ... On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 14:13:57 -0000, "Doctor Evil" wrote: Not at all. You buy the tool to suit the job. Exactly Buying a £100 Makita to sit in the cupboard all year is a really silly idea. Why do you make the assumption that that would happen? Do a Google on what you write. This is another stereotype of yours, similar to the one about DIY equating to cheap. No. No getting the right tools for the job and the least expense. Price/performance. Then there is the point of the throw away society of three Ferm/Challege Extreme, etc for the price of one Makita SDS, with these products having long guarantees for many of them. Buy two, if one breaks pick up another and still going and still lots of change in your pocket. I'm not going to waste my time having that discussion with you. I've explained the reasoning behind why I won't go down that path and that's that. I know it was buy only expensive stuff, mainly Makita. Why don't you buy Panasonic, they are more expensive than Makita? You are just plainly unobjective when it come to this point. Actually I'm highly objective and tend to look at a wide range of issues. Don't let the policeman hear you...... Or especially the policemen's helmets....?? _________________________________________ Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server More than 120,000 groups Unlimited download http://www.usenetzone.com to open account |
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"Jim Alexander" wrote in message ... Thought you avoided DIY sheds anyway. He goes to Harrods, so the service calling wears a top hat. _________________________________________ Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server More than 120,000 groups Unlimited download http://www.usenetzone.com to open account |
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"John Rumm" wrote in message ... Doctor Evil wrote: Saying Ferm is kak seems fair enough... I have two bits of Ferm kit, they serve a purpose, but they are a bit rough in a number of areas. That doesn't mean they should not be even looked at as Andy proclaims. Andy said he would not look at them, which given his buying criteria seems fair enough. I don't recall him saying you or anyone else couldn't though. He has more than implied that over several years. That is why he is getting a slaughtering on this thread by many who have had enough. _________________________________________ Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server More than 120,000 groups Unlimited download http://www.usenetzone.com to open account |
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Mark wrote:
From an engineering point of view that has nothing to do with efficiency, it You think? I would say it has quite a lot to do with it. A traditional chuck with drill bit fixed, will have a much higher mass than just the (splined) bit on its own. Each blow from the pneumatic hammer mechanism will generate a certain amount of energy (c. 2J is not uncommon on the lighter machines) of which a proportion will transferred to the projectile (i.e. either drill in the case of the SDS design, or drill plus chuck in conventional design) The greater the inertia of the projectile, the more energy you are likely to lose at the point of impact (noise, heat, vibration, deformation of the components etc), and the less forward velocity you will impart on it. The more vibration etc, the more energy dissipated into the operator which is both inefficient and fatiguing. 's a neat solution to both a manufacturing consideration and a safety issue. You would not want your fingers trapped between a chuck and a hard place. yup. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
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In article , Jim Alexander
writes "Andy Hall" wrote in message .. . On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:06:15 -0000, "Jim Alexander" wrote: This is not the point that I was making. That was all about what happens after the warranty has expired and the fact that the retailers don't make the situation clear. So, surprise surprise neatly full circle back your disigenuity about Miele warranty and your insatiable desire for the final say so, just like the other one. What I was saying, mainly, was that the retailer of *any* product, quality or cheapo, washes his hands after the expiry of the sold warranty whether that is 12, 24 or 36 months and where the extended element is an manufacturers extension, almost certainly after the unwritten "sale of goods" period expires after 12 months. Buy a quality product and you stand a very good chance of getting redress even after the warranty expires assuming your claim has some merit, the manufacturers have a reputation to think of, its a commercial decision. I personally have no expectation of redress after the sold warranty period expires and that is factored into the purchasing decision, nor in my frequent passages through DIY sheds have I ever been aware of customers seeking redress over out of sold warranty cheapo power tools. As for the implication that my fellow cheapo or non Miele users have no concern for the environment, well that's the sort of arrogant assertion which is responsible for some of the flak flying in your direction at the moment. Thought you avoided DIY sheds anyway. Jim A -- David |
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"Holly, in France" wrote in message ... Doctor Evil wrote in message . I know it was buy only expensive stuff, mainly Makita. Why don't you buy Panasonic, they are more expensive than Makita? They are also better, at least our cordless drill is, other peoples mileage may vary - not yours of course cos you wouldn't buy one. The Panasonic is about ten years old and is more powerful for and keeps going longer between charges than the Makita, which is about three years old. I suspect that is a difference in the battery quality/capacity. Possibly also voltages, don;t know offhand and I'm not going out in the snow to have a look! It's also heavier than the Makita and the chuck is stiff, so I prefer the Makita or the little B&D. If I wanted a cordless drill/driver for stuff around the house I would buy a B&D type product, for regular use the more expensive ones are a better buy. Same with most tools, horses for courses etc, you get what you pay for. I'm with Andy all the way on this one. I don't suppose you're convinced :-) You said it " horses for courses etc". That sums it up. An occasional DIYer should not buy a Panasonic. And I agree they are quality, leaving Makita standing. BTW, I have a 12v Bosch, which for ergonomics and lightness is hard to beat. But is it Bosch and it falls out of the fixed drill position to the highest toque setting. They are crap, I don't like them as they are overpriced and under quality. Similar with DeWalt. May as well buy Skil and B&D. I know lots of tradesmen, I come in contact with them regularly and many swear by Kress (Wickes). The woodworkers and kitchen fitters tend top go for Makita, DeWalt and Trend. They are a frightened to change from those makes even though many will tell you they have to get them repaired more often than what they would like too. _________________________________________ Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server More than 120,000 groups Unlimited download http://www.usenetzone.com to open account |
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"Doctor Evil" wrote in message ... "Holly, in France" wrote in message ... Doctor Evil wrote in message . I know it was buy only expensive stuff, mainly Makita. Why don't you buy Panasonic, they are more expensive than Makita? They are also better, at least our cordless drill is, other peoples mileage may vary - not yours of course cos you wouldn't buy one. The Panasonic is about ten years old and is more powerful for and keeps going longer between charges than the Makita, which is about three years old. I suspect that is a difference in the battery quality/capacity. Possibly also voltages, don;t know offhand and I'm not going out in the snow to have a look! It's also heavier than the Makita and the chuck is stiff, so I prefer the Makita or the little B&D. If I wanted a cordless drill/driver for stuff around the house I would buy a B&D type product, for regular use the more expensive ones are a better buy. Same with most tools, horses for courses etc, you get what you pay for. I'm with Andy all the way on this one. I don't suppose you're convinced :-) You said it " horses for courses etc". That sums it up. An occasional DIYer should not buy a Panasonic. And I agree they are quality, leaving Makita standing. BTW, I have a 12v Bosch, which for ergonomics and lightness is hard to beat. But is it Bosch and it falls out of the fixed drill position to the highest toque setting. They are crap, I don't like them as they are overpriced and under quality. Similar with DeWalt. May as well buy Skil and B&D. I know lots of tradesmen, I come in contact with them regularly and many swear by Kress (Wickes). The woodworkers and kitchen fitters tend top go for Makita, DeWalt and Trend. They are a frightened to change from those makes even though many will tell you they have to get them repaired more often than what they would like too. There are several different models of 12 volt Bosch drills, some are as you say crap, but others very robust, Which particular 12 volt Bosch are you referring to? |
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Doctor Evil wrote in message .. I know it was buy only expensive stuff, mainly Makita. Why don't you buy Panasonic, they are more expensive than Makita? They are also better, at least our cordless drill is, other peoples mileage may vary - not yours of course cos you wouldn't buy one. The Panasonic is about ten years old and is more powerful for and keeps going longer between charges than the Makita, which is about three years old. I suspect that is a difference in the battery quality/capacity. Possibly also voltages, don;t know offhand and I'm not going out in the snow to have a look! It's also heavier than the Makita and the chuck is stiff, so I prefer the Makita or the little B&D. If I wanted a cordless drill/driver for stuff around the house I would buy a B&D type product, for regular use the more expensive ones are a better buy. Same with most tools, horses for courses etc, you get what you pay for. I'm with Andy all the way on this one. I don't suppose you're convinced :-) -- Holly, in France. Holiday home in the Dordogne, website: http://la-plaine.chez.tiscali.fr |
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On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 15:27:06 -0000, "Doctor Evil"
wrote: No. No getting the right tools for the job and the least expense. Price/performance. I consider that to be too limited a view. Then there is the point of the throw away society of three Ferm/Challege Extreme, etc for the price of one Makita SDS, with these products having long guarantees for many of them. Buy two, if one breaks pick up another and still going and still lots of change in your pocket. I'm not going to waste my time having that discussion with you. I've explained the reasoning behind why I won't go down that path and that's that. I know it was buy only expensive stuff, mainly Makita. Why don't you buy Panasonic, they are more expensive than Makita? Because I don't buy purely on price in either direction as should have become completely apparent by now, Panasonic has very good battery technology which may be important if the maximum activity between charges is the primary consideration. On the other hand, the motor control is not quite as good as that of Makita. Therefore, on balance, I prefer Makita's offering, but it is not based on price. -- ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
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