"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
mike wrote:
Nope. Opinions are from looking at the products. I couldn't find
anything that impressed me.

Oh, right. So IMM looks at a product, expresses an opinion about it and
you lambast him for being uninformed and unequipped to render a
worthwhile conclusion. But when you do the same, we're supposed to
treat you like Moses returning with a stone tablet. I'm sure someone of
your obvious intellect knows the meaning of the word "hypocrite".

Mike - for gawd's sake.

snip babbling nonsense - only on the Internet you get this


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"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Evil wrote:
Interesting. Makita say that Maktec is a pro tool, the same quality,
just a few features less. I looked at Screwfix and the Makita 12v
drill/driver with 2 batteries is £95. An extra battery is £45. So that
is £140 with three batteries. The Maktec, equiv., the same but red and
a few different moulding lines on the plastic case, is going for £80 inc
p&p with 3 batteries.

Window shopping again.

Only on the internet do you get prats like this who are so conned by
advertising that they believe everything they read.

Do you mean those prices were fake? What are the real ones? can you tell
us?


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"Capitol" wrote in message
...


Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Andy buys and uses the things he talks about - so at least has a

possibly

I doubt he does.


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"Capitol" wrote in message
...


Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
You can drill into many types of 'masonry' with an ordinary HSS twist
drill - which may also be easily sharpened afterwards with a modicum of
skill.


Anyone who advocates this, IMO, comes under the heading of an
incompetent.

....and an idiotic fool. Only on the Internet you get this.....


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"mike" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:

I don't want to waste time having to go and wait in
queues at DIY stores to get failed cheap tools replaced whether they
have a three year warranty or not. That is a time wasting,
frustrating and pointless exercise which benefits nobody.

I'm curious to know how you calculate a value for your time.

In relation to returning failed tools, you say, "That is a time wasting,
frustrating and pointless exercise which benefits nobody," yet that
sounds like a perfect description of your interminable argument with
IMM. You're one of the groups most prolific posters and a fair
percentage of your postings involve you going through the same tired
rigamarole.

If you spent just half as much time regurgitating opinion presented as
fact, you'd be able to try every product in the PPPro range, take them
all back and turn a tidy profit from the "recompense for lost time" you
always get from the store manager.

While taking tools back to B&Q may do nothing for you, publicly
proclaiming your debatable superiority to IMM clearly fulfills a need
that transcends monetary value.

I thought it was just IMM that was the ****

No, he's got company.

And if he didn't exist, you'd have to invent him.

You mean like John / Adam / IMM / Doctor Evil / top gear, has invented you
to back him / it / her up.

On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 11:51:21 GMT, mike wrote:

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:


I don't feel, and I don't think that I have ever said that *all* tools
from a particular manufacturer or brand are automatically... bad.

With respect, it appears that's what you're doing he

I basically almost ignore the Power Devil, JCB ...

With respect, that is precisely what I am not doing.


I think most people with a basic grasp of English would think you're
being disingenuous there, Andy. Maybe you just have trouble admitting
when you're wrong.

I have no difficulty in admitting when I'm wrong and have an excellent
command of English, thanks. The points made were completely clear
and unambiguous.




Nope. Opinions are from looking at the products. I couldn't find
anything that impressed me.

Oh, right. So IMM looks at a product, expresses an opinion about it and
you lambast him for being uninformed and unequipped to render a
worthwhile conclusion.

Simply look at the information presented, the basis of it, the logic
behind it and it is not that difficult to work out the difference
between remarks and a well thought out analysis of the situation.


But when you do the same, we're supposed to
treat you like Moses returning with a stone tablet. I'm sure someone of
your obvious intellect knows the meaning of the word "hypocrite".

Not at all. You are comparing apples with pears. I haven't asked
you to accept what I have said as being beyond reproach. I've simply
presented what I believe to be a well thought out and studied set of
ideas and the reasons for them. I haven;t said that my approach is
applicable for everybody or anything close to it.

If you find reasoned discussion threatening in some way, that's your
issues, not mine.




Do you really think in your wildest dreams that I would base opinion
of a product that I might or might not buy on the input of IMM?
Please.


Not in my wildest dreams, Andy. It's based on your behaviour on this
list. IMM says something: like Pavlov's dog, you disagree with it. You
couldn't be seen to agree with him. It would reduce your social
standing (in your own mind if no-one else's).

This is complete nonsense and doesn't warrant further discussion. I
take information presented on its merits and that is that.

I appreciate it's not your
only purchasing criterion.
We've established over a long period that
brand snobbery and the feeling of superiority it gives is the major one.

You haven't established anything of the kind. I've explained my
approach in a completely clear way and the reasons for it. It makes
no difference to me whatsoever what you imagine the basis to be. I
know what it actually is and that is the basis of the discussion.
Simple as that.



Some people would not have noticed the problem and may even not be
unhappy with 2 degrees of error.

Exactly. So you agree with IMM that many purchasers were happy to pay
for the kudos of the brand name rather than the functionality.

I don't agree or disagree with anybody. I explained the situation
clearly and succinctly and the steps that I took to correct it.

That has no relevance whatsoever to who the manufacturer is.



The DeWalt jointer isn'r a top dollar product. It is mid range.

Mid-range to people who'd considering paying up to ?470 for a Lamello.
Then let's say that Dewalt is "expensive".

Let's not. Lamello make high quality biscuit joiners. They are
superbly engineered, adjustable, accurate and comfortable to use. To
me, that makes the purchase price completely reasonable.

In that context, the DeWalt is not as good. It will do a job, but in
comparison to th Lamello, it's very much midrange.



It's a mid range tool and it is not obvious until one measures
carefully that there is an issue.

Previously, according to you, it was a basic design flaw that rendered
it virtually useless. Are you now saying you were making a fuss over
nothing? You've already admitted that many people wouldn't notice it
and, if they did, wouldn't care.

I don't understand your difficulty with following the explanation.
It was presented in a completely straightforward way, as was my
approach to resolving it to achieve a satisfactory outcome.




There must be people on this group who've bought a Skil, Freud or Ferm
biscuit jointer and found it 90 degrees out of the box (or at least
settable to 90). You splash out on a "mid-range" tool and the best it
can manage is 88. I guess that would make some people rethink their
dogmatic attitude.

The point is that one would expect a mid range tool to be better than
this particular DeWalt product. There are only three options to
dealing with that situation. a) Do nothing and accept it b) Buy
something cheaper which may or may not be better, or c) buy something
better.

For me, option a) was not an option.

I looked at biscuit joiners made by Freud and they are quite
reasonable. I then compared with the Lamello and there really is no
comparison. It was not a difficult decision at all.





Virgin ... made sure that their supplier was more careful.

Are you sure about that?

Were you there for the face-to-face meeting where Richard Branson ripped
the guy from K-Tel a new arsehole?

????



I think you may have overestimated your achievement in order to make
yourself feel more important.

I'd respectively suggest that an equally likely scenario is that, once
you'd departed the shop, the manager turned to his underlings, said
"another tosser with a bee up his ass", and they all had a hearty laugh
at your expense.

They may well have done. Why do you imagine that I would care? The
problem was dealt with and the outcome was satisfactory as far as I
was concerned. That's what actually matters.



Nobody of sentience would base a buying decision on the whims and
recent handouts of Norm, or anybody else in a TV program for that
matter

No, but one might factor Norm's obvious craftsmanship and the respect of
his peers into one's buying decision.

Oh give me a break. Norm's an entertainer, and that's it.



On the other hand, no-one of sentience would base their decision on the
silly, self-aggrandizing proclamations of an arrogant, hectoring windbag
who dresses up his prejudices in a veneer of pomposity and gets off on
bullying people.

There are are two or three regulars, clearly impressed by your ability
to string a sentence together (even if its doesn't stand up to logical
analysis), who'll step in to do some cheer-leading for you when you go
off on one of your regular IMM-baiting stunts, but I notice they've been
more or less absent from this exchange. One hopes they've discovered
some measure of self-respect and realised that hanging out with the
playground bully is a not a position they want to be in.

You have some very strange ideas, unrelated to reality.




--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 17:13:35 GMT, "Mark" wrote:

Grunff typed:

When Andy describes a product which he has looked at, he will usually
give a very detailed description of specific features and drawbacks of
the product. Whenever the description has been of a product I have
personal exprience with, it has correlated well with my own
assessment.

I would agree completely with that.

What iterates me and it appears others is the insistence that only
professional/industrial quality tools are a worthwhile purchase without any
regard to the end users real requirements.

I'm nt sure where iteration comes into this.....

If you took the trouble to read what I actually said as opposed to
what you imagine I said, you would discover that I have clearly
explained how I've looked at each purchase and why.

I haven't said that what works for me is appropriate for everybody
else, only that a simplistic view based on price may result in a
different decision to one based on a broader set of criteria. The
reader can decide which of the criteria that I use are more or less
relevant to them

They may or may not then make a different decision than the first one
considered, but at least they will have thought about it rather than
blindly accepting what the retailers want to hand out.






--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Kaiser" wrote in message
...

"mike" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:

I don't want to waste time having to go and wait in
queues at DIY stores to get failed cheap tools replaced whether they
have a three year warranty or not. That is a time wasting,
frustrating and pointless exercise which benefits nobody.

I'm curious to know how you calculate a value for your time.

In relation to returning failed tools, you say, "That is a time wasting,
frustrating and pointless exercise which benefits nobody," yet that
sounds like a perfect description of your interminable argument with
IMM. You're one of the groups most prolific posters and a fair
percentage of your postings involve you going through the same tired
rigamarole.

If you spent just half as much time regurgitating opinion presented as
fact, you'd be able to try every product in the PPPro range, take them
all back and turn a tidy profit from the "recompense for lost time" you
always get from the store manager.

While taking tools back to B&Q may do nothing for you, publicly
proclaiming your debatable superiority to IMM clearly fulfills a need
that transcends monetary value.

I thought it was just IMM that was the ****

No, he's got company.

And if he didn't exist, you'd have to invent him.

You mean like John / Adam / IMM / Doctor Evil / top gear, has invented you
to back him / it / her up.

Mr Cheese, you missed out Icky the Firebobby.



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On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 15:55:19 -0000, "Jim Alexander"
wrote:


the moronic posts feed on the responses of some who should know better but I
did get a really disingenuous reply from Andy about the Miele warranty.
Didn't respond because my ISP didn't carry the post, but basically Miele
only have a 5 or 10 year warranty if you buy it. Its only 2 years FOC and
as I said the retailer will wash his hands of it after 1 year.


That varies Jim. On some products they have 5 years on an almost
continuous basis. On others, they offer 5 or 10 years on a
promotional basis although perhaps not all the time.



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In article ,
Capitol wrote:
You can drill into many types of 'masonry' with an ordinary HSS twist
drill - which may also be easily sharpened afterwards with a modicum
of skill.


Anyone who advocates this, IMO, comes under the heading of an
incompetent.

Really?

The HSS drill can be resharpened, but will never drill a
hole to the original specified diameter again. It is an exceedingly
stupid practice!

You think a hole into soft masonry is critical in dimensions?

Some - probably not you - keep a comprehensive set of HSS drills for
important things well clear of those used for jobbing work. HSS jobbing
drills are so cheap that there's no reason not to. Unlike 'masonry' drills.

--
*If a pig loses its voice, is it disgruntled? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 11:51:21 GMT, mike wrote:

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:


I don't feel, and I don't think that I have ever said that *all*
tools
from a particular manufacturer or brand are automatically... bad.

With respect, it appears that's what you're doing he

I basically almost ignore the Power Devil, JCB ...

With respect, that is precisely what I am not doing.


I think most people with a basic grasp of English would think you're
being disingenuous there, Andy. Maybe you just have trouble admitting
when you're wrong.

I have no difficulty in admitting
when I'm wrong

What! I have never known you admit you are wrong at any time. And you are
wrong most of the time.

and have an excellent
command of English, thanks.

That is Little Middle English.

The points made were completely clear
and unambiguous.

Nope. Opinions are from looking at the products. I couldn't find
anything that impressed me.

Oh, right. So IMM looks at a product, expresses an opinion about it and
you lambast him for being uninformed and unequipped to render a
worthwhile conclusion.

Simply look at the information presented, the basis of it, the logic
behind it and it is not that difficult to work out the difference
between remarks and a well thought out analysis of the situation.

But when you do the same, we're supposed to
treat you like Moses returning with a stone tablet. I'm sure someone of
your obvious intellect knows the meaning of the word "hypocrite".

Not at all. You are comparing apples with pears. I haven't asked
you to accept what I have said as being beyond reproach. I've simply
presented what I believe to be a well thought out and studied set of
ideas and the reasons for them. I haven;t said that my approach is
applicable for everybody or anything close to it.

If you find reasoned discussion threatening in some way, that's your
issues, not mine.

Do you really think in your wildest dreams that I would base opinion
of a product that I might or might not buy on the input of IMM?
Please.

Not in my wildest dreams, Andy. It's based on your behaviour on this
list. IMM says something: like Pavlov's dog, you disagree with it. You
couldn't be seen to agree with him. It would reduce your social
standing (in your own mind if no-one else's).

This is complete nonsense

It is totally correct.

I appreciate it's not your
only purchasing criterion.
We've established over a long period that
brand snobbery and the feeling of superiority it gives is the major one.

You haven't established anything of the kind.

Oh, he has.

No, but one might factor Norm's obvious craftsmanship and the respect of
his peers into one's buying decision.

Oh give me a break. Norm's an entertainer, and that's it.

He conjures up some great entertaining woodwork though.

On the other hand, no-one of sentience would base their decision on the
silly, self-aggrandizing proclamations of an arrogant, hectoring windbag
who dresses up his prejudices in a veneer of pomposity and gets off on
bullying people.

There are are two or three regulars, clearly impressed by your ability
to string a sentence together (even if its doesn't stand up to logical
analysis), who'll step in to do some cheer-leading for you when you go
off on one of your regular IMM-baiting stunts, but I notice they've been
more or less absent from this exchange. One hopes they've discovered
some measure of self-respect and realised that hanging out with the
playground bully is a not a position they want to be in.

You have some very strange ideas, unrelated to reality.

Mike is very down to earth, and has hit the nail on the head. Very astute
observation I may say so myself.


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On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 20:52:49 -0000, "Dr Drivel"
wrote:

Not quite, you need to shop around more. Best price I can find on a
12V Maktec and 3 batts is £59

That is a clearance sale.

http://www.dm-tools.co.uk/store/browse.php3?site=froogle&sn=MAKMT063SK3

Well the next cheapest price which is on the site you quoted is £76:

http://www.ukindustry.co.uk/makita/maktec.htm


and the best price on a Makita 12V with 3 batts is £75:


http://www.lawson-his.co.uk/scripts/...%20Drill%20%2F
%20Drivers%2012V&source=froogle

No. £88 inc VAT

OK, that makes it £29 more which isn't a huge difference.


snip drivel

Your inability to add anything useful makes you the drivelling fool...

cheerio,
Pete.

Hey Grunff,

Just because Andy sugarcoats his opinion of a tool that he, like IMM,
has never used, by throwing in some technical detail, it doesn't stop
it from being an opinion. It might, in some circumstances, be a more
valuable opinion than IMM's. It's still an opinion and it's not
deserving of the unquestioning reverence that some people attach to it.

It's not true to say that IMM posts consistent drivel. Sometimes he
does. On other occasions, people have solicited his advice and thanked
him for his contributions. It's not true to say that Andy posts
consistent, valuable contributions. Sometimes he does. Often it's his
opinion dressed up as fact, and often it's just haranguing IMM which I
can't see is valuable to anyone except Andy.

Even if IMM posted consistent moronic drivel, it doesn't mean the rest
of us should stand by and watch him be bullied or silenced -- not, I
hasten to add, that he's incapable of defending himself. Most of IMM's
posts are on-topic and most of it seems to be what he genuinely
believes rather than deliberately provocative nonsense. Anyway, it
takes two to have an argument and one of those is usually Andy.

The point of a newsgroup apart from good information is, surely, lively
debate. And Andy's condescending, self-serving posts act to suppress
that as he seeks to consolidate his position as cock of the midden. On
those occasions when there's an influx of newcomers (as there was
recently when someone wrapped the usenet group in a webpage) there were
a few people daring to challenge him. But a couple of weeks later, the
status quo is restored and they realise that, like the rest of us,
they're just peons in the court of Lord Hall of Reading, the force of
his pomposity silencing any meaningful engagement.

IMM often says that cheap tools have their uses (and no-one in their
right mind can dispute and many group members will endorse from
experience this fact). Where the debate descends into stupidity and
offensiveness is when Andy sneerily declares that anyone who can't
afford a Hilti to put in a carpet tack isn't trying hard enough.
Seriously, that's a fair summary of his usual line, isn't it? He will
occasionally, begrudgingly concede that under exceptional circumstances
a cheap tool just might, maybe, possibly be suitable for a one-off job
by some poor ******* who's just bought his first flat and might not
have much disposable income, but really he has to leave the guy in no
doubt that he's not going to get any enjoyment out of it because, well,
he's a peasant.

Realistically, who the hell's going to buy a 500 quid Lamello biscuit
jointer for DIY use? If your hobby is making fine furniture, great.
If you're doing up your house, it's silly. But I guess Andy gets off
on that Loadsamoney attitude, waving his wad (or, in this case, his
biscuit jointer) in people's faces.

Is it Dave who's said on several occasions that IMM can hardly string a
sentence together? Well, gosh, Andy, attacking someone like that must
make you feel really big.

I think it's important to say when the emperor's wearing no clothes, or
that the great god bleeds like the rest of us.

Andy has gained the respect of some regulars. He just hasn't ascended
to godhood yet and there are people prepared to point out when he's
wrong.

If Andy can refer to IMM as a "****" (hardly the most intellectual of
arguments), then I guess he should take it on the chin when someone
points out he's a windbag and a bully.

Or maybe he should just stop being a windbag and a bully.

Mike

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Evil wrote:

The ones I saw were all BMC dealers and
sold the lot. Or Austin/Morris
dealers. On becoming BMC Austin and
Morris dealers merged very quickly.

snip tosh

The tosh continues....

BMC - basically the amalgamation between
Austin and the Nuffield group
took place in the early '50s.

You don't say......

And by the time the 1960s badge engineering came about Austin and Morris
dealers were one and the same.




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In article ,
Capitol wrote:
Andy buys and uses the things he talks about - so at least has a

possibly

worthwhile opinion on those he has merely had a play with.

Ok. You're entitled to your views - are is everyone. All I know is that
Andy comes across as knowing what he talks about. And gives chapter and
verse about how he comes to his decisions. After that, it's up to 'us' to
decide about value for money with a particular tool. Personally, I always
listen to the genuine pros or gifted amateurs for guidance before making a
decision. Not those who merely quote adverts. YMMV.

--
*Okay, who stopped the payment on my reality check? *

Dave Plowman London SW
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"Pete C" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 20:52:49 -0000, "Dr Drivel"
wrote:

Not quite, you need to shop around more. Best price I can find on a
12V Maktec and 3 batts is £59

That is a clearance sale.


http://www.dm-tools.co.uk/store/browse.php3?site=froogle&sn=MAKMT063SK3

Well the next cheapest price which is on the site you quoted is £76:

http://www.ukindustry.co.uk/makita/maktec.htm


and the best price on a Makita 12V with 3 batts is £75:



http://www.lawson-his.co.uk/scripts/...s%20Drill%20%2
F
%20Drivers%2012V&source=froogle

No. £88 inc VAT

OK, that makes it £29 more which isn't a huge difference.


snip drivel

Your inability to add anything useful makes you the drivelling fool...

What!! I added £13!!!


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John Rumm wrote:

In your one man crusade to win the affections of IMM,

Couldn't care less, even if he is the man with the mojo. The point of
the posting was to highlight the ridiculous deification of Andy.


it seems to be
yourself lacking grasp in this situation. Andy has made it very clear

what factors he considers important for his tool purchases. Given
those,
it seems entirely appropriate that he dismisses a large section of
the
low end offings, if for no other reason than their distribution model

precludes the sort of after sales service and support that he
requires.
Why is that so difficult to understand?

What's difficult to understand is why people hang on his every word and
never entertain the notion that he might be only human. If Andy wants
to spend his money on particular tools, good luck to him. His decision
is based on his opinion, not on fact. Why does he have to keep ramming
his opinion down IMM's throat? What purpose does that serve apart from
making Andy feel superior?

It does not seem to be snobbery
to base your purchasing decisions on how close a fit to *your*
requirements a tool gets.

No, it turns into snobbery when you persistently ridicule everyone who
doesn't agree with you in a humourless and vindictive way.


It should also be clear that Andy enjoys using fine quality tools.

And it should surely be equally clear that Andy likes the sound of his
own voice, since it's the only purpose those posts serve.


So do
I. There are some tools I have, that can put smile on your face every

time you pick them up and use them (and no, not from the vibration!).
It
is difficult to qualify what exactly what that X factor is, but it
seems
to be (to me at least) combination of good design, performance,
smoothness of operation, and quality of results achieved. Sometimes
everything about it is "right".

Yes, I agree but what you or I consider "right" is not necessarily what
others consider "right" so whilst I might reject a 40 quid SDS hammer
on the grounds that 6kg is inconvenient to me, it might be fine for
someone else's needs. If they asked for buying advice, I might suggest
that lighter ones are easier to use but I'm not going to wage a
miserable years-long campaign against them for not agreeing with me.


If Andy did the same, then that would be hypocritical. However I
don't
feel that he does. He has a long standing history on this group of
providing detailed quality information. If he gives an opionion he is

also always ready to explain *why* he is of that opinion, withuot
resorting to IMM style "I am always right, trust me" statements.

That just isn't true. Andy is as prone as IMM (and any of the rest of
us) to wheeling out his pet hobby horses. He just has force of
personality and a better facility for dressing it up in some florid
language which makes it seems reasonable - but ultimately, many times,
it collapses under analysis. Andy has brands he likes (like the rest
of us) and he praises them and dismisses the rest without looking.
There are people on the group who want to believe it and so turn off
their critical faculties.


No, I believe he says that for many users, a slight error may not be
critical. Much depends on the type of work you are doing.

I can't believe the contortions we'll go through on this group rather
than admit any failing on Andy's part. If it's built to acceptable
tolerances, why go on about it? If it's not, then what's the point of
paying through the nose for it?



Well as highlighted, the Ferm could do 90 degrees on one axis, but
sadly
failed on the latteral one!

So does that make it better than a DeWalt that doesn't do 90 degrees?
If they're both slightly out-of-whack, is the 40 quid one better value?


You are engaging in IMM style argument "extension into absurdity".

No, I was exagerating for humorous effect (up to you whether you find
it humorous). Andy does not know whether his return of a CD had any
affect on Virgin's relationship with its supplier, although he chooses
to present it here as if it did, exaggerating his own achievement, and
making one question how much his tool reviews/opinions can be relied
upon and wonder about the point of such self-aggrandizing posts .


However, do you not suppose it likely that next time the sales
assistent flogs another CD of the same type he may not check?

Student, part-time job, minimum wage. Hard to say.


That may have been the case, does this however justify us all acting
as
dumb sheep consumers?

No, John, my point is that you shouldn't act as dumb sheep consumers.
You should expose what Andy says to the same critical light that you
do other people's postings. It doesn't always stand up.


Taking whatever service the system gives out
without complaint? You may not have bothered rectifying the
situation,
prefering to get shafted,

Actually, John, I've taken stuff back to B&Q to be refunded or
price-matched before and not only have they given me the money back,
they recompensed me for my time. I haven't felt the need to bang on
about it on the group because I don't define my self-worth that way,
and I mention it now because you brought it up.

I didn't achieve it by slapping my swagger stick on the counter and
demanding to see the manager. I was just civil to the girl behind the
counter. You can all do it. It's not some talent unique to Andy.

but at least be greatful that some people do
take the time to highlight where there is a problem with a product or

service.
It is only because of their actions that there will be an
improvement for all of us.

You'll forgive me if I don't doff my cap and tug my forelock in
recognition of the great public service we peons have had bestowed upon
us by the Duke of Reading.

Come on, John, throw off your shackles. Get out of his shadow.



No, but one might factor Norm's obvious craftsmanship and the
respect of
his peers into one's buying decision.

A fact I am sure all the product placement and PR executives of the
tool
comapanies are well aware of when making offers to the producers of
such
shows...

Your point being what?

That Andy is as prone as anyone else to dismissing anything that
doesn't suit his opinion. Those pesky facts just get side-lined.


On the other hand, no-one of sentience would base their decision on
the
silly, self-aggrandizing proclamations of an arrogant, hectoring
windbag
who dresses up his prejudices in a veneer of pomposity and gets off
on
bullying people.

True... can't think of who you had in mind though.

Really?


If IMM posts nonsense, Andy (and many others) will counter that with
lucid explanation of the limitations of said nonsense.


And my point is that you should be as diligent in pointing out Andy's
nonsense, even if it is less frequent.


more or less absent from this exchange. One hopes they've
discovered
some measure of self-respect and realised that hanging out with the

playground bully is a not a position they want to be in.

Now you are talking nonsense! (IMHO).

Well, I have the greatest of respect for you, John, and I hope you will
take a moment to reflect on what's been said and perhaps acknowledge
that Andy isn't always right.

Mike

Mike - for gawd's sake. John doesn't know a drill from a biscuit
jointer.
He merely quotes specs and prices, without understanding either.

Andy buys and uses the things he talks about - so at least has a
worthwhile opinion on those he has merely had a play with.

Dave,

Andy may be better informed about some things than John. It doesn't
mean he's always right, it doesn't mean he should never be criticised,
and it doesn't give him the right to hector others in that
condescending way.

Mike

In article ,
Doctor Evil wrote:
Do you mean those prices were fake? What are the real ones? can you
tell us?

Only on the internet do you get window shoppers who recommend things
purely on their price and colour, and don't have a clue how they perform.
Oh - and those who claim to have bought them, but haven't. And also to
have qualifications to substantiate their views, knowing it's near
impossible to check them out. Sad.

--
*If work is so terrific, how come they have to pay you to do it?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Doctor Evil" wrote in message
...

"Kaiser" wrote in message
...

"mike" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:

I don't want to waste time having to go and wait in
queues at DIY stores to get failed cheap tools replaced whether they
have a three year warranty or not. That is a time wasting,
frustrating and pointless exercise which benefits nobody.

I'm curious to know how you calculate a value for your time.

In relation to returning failed tools, you say, "That is a time
wasting,
frustrating and pointless exercise which benefits nobody," yet that
sounds like a perfect description of your interminable argument with
IMM. You're one of the groups most prolific posters and a fair
percentage of your postings involve you going through the same tired
rigamarole.

If you spent just half as much time regurgitating opinion presented as
fact, you'd be able to try every product in the PPPro range, take them
all back and turn a tidy profit from the "recompense for lost time" you
always get from the store manager.

While taking tools back to B&Q may do nothing for you, publicly
proclaiming your debatable superiority to IMM clearly fulfills a need
that transcends monetary value.

I thought it was just IMM that was the ****

No, he's got company.

And if he didn't exist, you'd have to invent him.

You mean like John / Adam / IMM / Doctor Evil / top gear, has invented
you
to back him / it / her up.

Mr Cheese, you missed out Icky the Firebobby.


I missed out **** as well, but you never mentioned that.

Kaiser,

I pointed out in the other thread that I'm not IMM and that Mike is my
name and not an alias.

If you check the full headers in your newsreader, maybe you'll see for
yourself. Or perhaps one of the other regulars will confirm it for you.

Either way, I've told you the truth and it's entirely up to you whether
you belive it.

Best,

Mike

wrote:

Andy has gained the respect of some regulars. He just hasn't ascended
to godhood yet and there are people prepared to point out when he's
wrong.


Look, you've turned this thread from a discussion on power tools to a
personal attack against Andy. I am no longer interested in taking part -
there is nowhere for the conversation to go.


--
Grunff

"Grunff" wrote in message
...
wrote:

Andy has gained the respect of some regulars. He just hasn't ascended
to godhood yet and there are people prepared to point out when he's
wrong.


Look, you've turned this thread from a discussion on power tools to a
personal attack against Andy. I am no longer interested in taking part -
there is nowhere for the conversation to go.


That's because he's really IMM with another new alias.

Grunff typed:

Mark wrote:

snip a reasoned argument


Coupled with the insistence that anything sold in the likes of
Lidl/aldy is pikie rubbish

However !

Well....erm...I do think that this is largely true.

12 months ago I had to replace the batteries on my 12v makita drill , at the
same time Lidl were doing a cheep cordless something and also spare 18v
battery packs.
I bought one and re-celled one of the dead makita packs, they have both had
similar use over the last year, honesty unless I look when I go to recharge
a pack I cant tell any difference in performance *as yet*.
It will be interesting to see how long the lidl pack lasts in compression
with the genuine new Makita.

Oh the cost
Makita 1.3Ah £42
Lidl 1.5Ah £4.99
Someone said you get *exactly* what you pay for, Hmmm
best to keep an open mind me thinks.


--
Mark§

Well, Andy, I can see we have different ideas about what constitutes
reason and logic, and you clearly believe your own myth and won't give
ground on anything, so I guess the adult thing to do would be to leave
it at that and let people make their own minds up.

I'd respectively suggest that an equally likely scenario is that,
once
you'd departed the shop, the manager turned to his underlings, said
"another tosser with a bee up his ass", and they all had a hearty
laugh
at your expense.

They may well have done.

Well, that's a concession at least. In your previous post, you'd
altered Virgin's buying policy.

You have some very strange ideas, unrelated to reality.

And this would be the reality in which you're infallible and anyone who
dares to disagree with you is wrong?

Whatever.

Dave Plowman (News) typed:

You can drill into many types of 'masonry' with an ordinary HSS twist
drill - which may also be easily sharpened afterwards with a modicum
of skill.

Shudders!

The more difficult - ie harder types of concrete or masonry will
laugh at a hammer drill and masonry bit - you need SDS.

Hmm perhaps you would like to explain to anyone still interested in this
thread from a technical point of view, why this is so ?

--
Mark§

On 2 Mar 2005 14:18:48 -0800, wrote:

Hey Grunff,

Just because Andy sugarcoats his opinion of a tool that he, like IMM,
has never used, by throwing in some technical detail, it doesn't stop
it from being an opinion.

I haven't presented anything as being other than an opinion.
However, I do add the basis of it. That ranges from a cursory glance
to (if the situation warrants it) a detailed analysis based on looking
at the item in some detail.

It might, in some circumstances, be a more
valuable opinion than IMM's. It's still an opinion and it's not
deserving of the unquestioning reverence that some people attach to it.

Nobody's looking for reverence or anything else. I'm certainly very
pleased to have a discussion on any ventured opinion of a product.
If you are unable or choose not to do so, that's your issue, not mine,
but it is unreasonable to then suggest that the implication is that it
wasn't subject to question in the first place. That's simply
pushing the real issue elsewhere.




The point of a newsgroup apart from good information is, surely, lively
debate. And Andy's condescending, self-serving posts act to suppress
that as he seeks to consolidate his position as cock of the midden. On
those occasions when there's an influx of newcomers (as there was
recently when someone wrapped the usenet group in a webpage) there were
a few people daring to challenge him. But a couple of weeks later, the
status quo is restored and they realise that, like the rest of us,
they're just peons in the court of Lord Hall of Reading, the force of
his pomposity silencing any meaningful engagement.

You have some very strange ideas. Information given is information
given and debate is debate. Attempting to divert the discussion into
one of ad hominem attacks simply because you don't like what is
presented or because you can't or don't want to participate in the
debate is rather pointless, and I'm not sure what you hope to achieve
by it.




Realistically, who the hell's going to buy a 500 quid Lamello biscuit
jointer for DIY use? If your hobby is making fine furniture, great.
If you're doing up your house, it's silly. But I guess Andy gets off
on that Loadsamoney attitude, waving his wad (or, in this case, his
biscuit jointer) in people's faces.

I think that you have missed the point completely. You are making
the mistake of assuming that DIY is a limited range of activities to
be done with the sole objective of attempting to save money.

I see it as a much broader range of activities which can range from
concreting the path to wallpapering the lounge to making furniture and
other things to a high standard.

I do also like to use good quality tools because it pleases me to do
so and improves the satisfaction gained from the job.

If you don't wish view the subject area as broadly, that's fine, but
it isn't logical or reasonable to then attempt to denigrate others who
do.


Or maybe he should just stop being a windbag and a bully.



Maybe you should look at debating the actual issues rather than
attempting to divert them into irrelevancies.



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Grunff,

I was under the impression it was Andy who turned it into just the
latest of many personal attacks on IMM, and I stepped in to say I
didn't think that was right.

Obvioulsy I was wrong and, as Andy is beyond criticism, there is indeed
nowhere for the conversation to go.

Mike

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Evil wrote:

Do you mean those prices were fake?
What are the real ones? can you
tell us?

Only on the internet do you get window
shoppers who recommend things

Richard, I never recommended anything. I pointed out the differences
between the two Makita ranges, and how this company is having to drop its
prices, without admitting it is, by introducing another marque, which is
basically the same stuff.

You didn't know that did you? Only on the Internet you get this. If this was
the cowboy days, you would get run out of town.



_________________________________________
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"Kaiser" wrote in message
...

"Doctor Evil" wrote in message
...

"Kaiser" wrote in message
...

"mike" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:

I don't want to waste time having to go and wait in
queues at DIY stores to get failed cheap tools replaced whether they
have a three year warranty or not. That is a time wasting,
frustrating and pointless exercise which benefits nobody.

I'm curious to know how you calculate a value for your time.

In relation to returning failed tools, you say, "That is a time
wasting,
frustrating and pointless exercise which benefits nobody," yet that
sounds like a perfect description of your interminable argument with
IMM. You're one of the groups most prolific posters and a fair
percentage of your postings involve you going through the same tired
rigamarole.

If you spent just half as much time regurgitating opinion presented
as
fact, you'd be able to try every product in the PPPro range, take
them
all back and turn a tidy profit from the "recompense for lost time"
you
always get from the store manager.

While taking tools back to B&Q may do nothing for you, publicly
proclaiming your debatable superiority to IMM clearly fulfills a need
that transcends monetary value.

I thought it was just IMM that was the ****

No, he's got company.

And if he didn't exist, you'd have to invent him.

You mean like John / Adam / IMM / Doctor Evil / top gear, has invented
you
to back him / it / her up.

Mr Cheese, you missed out Icky the Firebobby.


I missed out **** as well, but you never mentioned that.

Icky the ****?


_________________________________________
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More than 120,000 groups
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In article .com,
writes
Well, Andy, I can see we have different ideas about what constitutes
reason and logic, and you clearly believe your own myth and won't give
ground on anything, so I guess the adult thing to do would be to leave
it at that and let people make their own minds up.

I suspect that most of us have and I would think you are in a very small
crowd Mike
--
David

wrote in message
oups.com...
Kaiser,

I pointed out in the other thread that I'm not IMM and that Mike is my
name and not an alias.

If you check the full headers in your newsreader, maybe you'll see for
yourself. Or perhaps one of the other regulars will confirm it for you.

Either way, I've told you the truth and it's entirely up to you whether
you belive it.

Best,

Mike

Headers don't prove a thing, different PC, different SP, different
Newsreader, all those things can change a header. Also there's many regulars
on here that I doubt would confirm it following you recent attacks on a
respected contributor on this NG.

Seems like you are going over the top with your support for IMM when he is
quite capable of defending himself. Then you attack Andy as you accuse
others of doing to IMM. So is it surprising that I think you are one of his
aliases.

Kaiser.

On 2 Mar 2005 14:31:01 -0800, wrote:

Mike - for gawd's sake. John doesn't know a drill from a biscuit
jointer.
He merely quotes specs and prices, without understanding either.

Andy buys and uses the things he talks about - so at least has a
worthwhile opinion on those he has merely had a play with.

Dave,

Andy may be better informed about some things than John. It doesn't
mean he's always right, it doesn't mean he should never be criticised,
and it doesn't give him the right to hector others in that
condescending way.

Mike


It seems to me that it's you who has the issue here. Firstly I have
never claimed or even given the impression that I am always right.

I think that you are confusing a reasoned argument (whether or not you
agree with the reasoning) with something handed out as undisputable
fact. I'm always open to criticism - it gives me no problem at all.
If you don't feel able to debate the subject, that's fine, but it's
your issue and not mine.

Obviously I describe things based on my set of values and judgment
criteria. I take pretty good care to make clear what those are and to
point out that others may well have other scales of values.

However, I make no apology for describing a broader way of looking at
things than people may have thought of - e.g. looking at total
lifetime cost of a product choice including personal time and not just
the investment cost. I think that people can make their own
choices easily enough.

Nobody is treating anybody in a condescending way or hectoring them
as you put it, and I really have no idea why you have that impression.

Either way, it would be far more useful if the subject matter were
discussed rather than your misguided views on how others present their
opinions.






--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On 2 Mar 2005 14:51:08 -0800, wrote:

Well, Andy, I can see we have different ideas about what constitutes
reason and logic, and you clearly believe your own myth and won't give
ground on anything, so I guess the adult thing to do would be to leave
it at that and let people make their own minds up.

As far as I am concerned, it isn't an issue of giving and taking
ground. That implied a battle, and there isn't one. The point
should be have a reasonable discussion on the subject. I haven't
seen you actually doing that.



I'd respectively suggest that an equally likely scenario is that,
once
you'd departed the shop, the manager turned to his underlings, said
"another tosser with a bee up his ass", and they all had a hearty
laugh
at your expense.

They may well have done.

Well, that's a concession at least. In your previous post, you'd
altered Virgin's buying policy.

You have some very strange ideas, unrelated to reality.

And this would be the reality in which you're infallible and anyone who
dares to disagree with you is wrong?

Whatever.

Oh puhleese.




--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Doctor Evil" wrote in message
...

"Kaiser" wrote in message
...

"Doctor Evil" wrote in message
...

"Kaiser" wrote in message
...

"mike" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:

I don't want to waste time having to go and wait in
queues at DIY stores to get failed cheap tools replaced whether
they
have a three year warranty or not. That is a time wasting,
frustrating and pointless exercise which benefits nobody.

I'm curious to know how you calculate a value for your time.

In relation to returning failed tools, you say, "That is a time
wasting,
frustrating and pointless exercise which benefits nobody," yet that
sounds like a perfect description of your interminable argument with
IMM. You're one of the groups most prolific posters and a fair
percentage of your postings involve you going through the same tired
rigamarole.

If you spent just half as much time regurgitating opinion presented
as
fact, you'd be able to try every product in the PPPro range, take
them
all back and turn a tidy profit from the "recompense for lost time"
you
always get from the store manager.

While taking tools back to B&Q may do nothing for you, publicly
proclaiming your debatable superiority to IMM clearly fulfills a
need
that transcends monetary value.

I thought it was just IMM that was the ****

No, he's got company.

And if he didn't exist, you'd have to invent him.

You mean like John / Adam / IMM / Doctor Evil / top gear, has invented
you
to back him / it / her up.

Mr Cheese, you missed out Icky the Firebobby.


I missed out **** as well, but you never mentioned that.

Icky the ****?


See, you have got a sense of humour after all.

Andy,

You say that you're happy to have a discussion on any ventured opinion
but when I say something you don't like, it becomes a case of me having
"strange ideas" or being divorced from reality. And since you never
give ground on anything, I'm not exactly sure what your definition of a
discussion is. Is a discussion one party trying to debate something
whilst the other sticks rigidly to the position they've held from the
outset?

When I confront you, I'm "diverting the discussion into an ad hominem
attack" but when you call IMM a "****"... what exactly is that?

Most people on this list would agree that the DeWalt was expensive - in
realtion to a spread of prices for "common" biscuit jointers. But you
have to compare it to an esoteric Lamello.

You say that I'm missing the point and assuming DIY is a limited range
of activities. Well, I think I'm using DIY in the sense that most
people would understand it. If you're making fine furniture to a high
standard, isn't that what most people would call cabinet making and not
DIY?

You say that if I don't view the area broadly, I shouldn't denigrate
others who do. But denigrating others is what you do when you say that
Ferm is kak, DeWalt is kak, only Lamello is good enough.

You say that I think the sole objective of DIY is too save money.
Then wouldn't I recommend everyone buy Challenge from argos and have
done with it?

Mike

Also there's many regulars
on here that I doubt would confirm it following you recent attacks on
a
respected contributor on this NG.

Well, if they know we're two different people but they won't confirm it
because I criticised Andy, that doesn't say much for them does it?

"Kaiser" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
oups.com...
Kaiser,

I pointed out in the other thread that I'm not IMM and that Mike is my
name and not an alias.

If you check the full headers in your newsreader, maybe you'll see for
yourself. Or perhaps one of the other regulars will confirm it for you.

Either way, I've told you the truth and it's entirely up to you whether
you belive it.

Best,

Mike

Headers don't prove a thing, different PC, different SP, different
Newsreader, all those things can change a header. Also there's many
regulars
on here that I doubt would confirm it following you recent attacks on a
respected contributor on this NG.

Seems like you are going over the top with your support for IMM when he is
quite capable of defending himself. Then you attack Andy as you accuse
others of doing to IMM. So is it surprising that I think you are one of
his
aliases.

Kaiser.

Mr Cheese, you are barking.


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"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2 Mar 2005 14:31:01 -0800, wrote:

Mike - for gawd's sake. John doesn't know a drill from a biscuit
jointer.
He merely quotes specs and prices, without understanding either.

Andy buys and uses the things he talks about - so at least has a
worthwhile opinion on those he has merely had a play with.

Dave,

Andy may be better informed about some things than John. It doesn't
mean he's always right, it doesn't mean he should never be criticised,
and it doesn't give him the right to hector others in that
condescending way.

Mike

It seems to me that it's you who has
the issue here. Firstly I have
never claimed or even given the impression
that I am always right.

I never.....

Nobody is treating anybody in a
condescending way or hectoring them
as you put it,

....Don't let the policeman hear you.

and I really have no idea why you have that impression.

Do a Google on your posts. Appalling....



_________________________________________
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More than 120,000 groups
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"Kaiser" wrote in message
...

"Doctor Evil" wrote in message
...

"Kaiser" wrote in message
...

"Doctor Evil" wrote in message
...

"Kaiser" wrote in message
...

"mike" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:

I don't want to waste time having to go and wait in
queues at DIY stores to get failed cheap tools replaced whether
they
have a three year warranty or not. That is a time wasting,
frustrating and pointless exercise which benefits nobody.

I'm curious to know how you calculate a value for your time.

In relation to returning failed tools, you say, "That is a time
wasting,
frustrating and pointless exercise which benefits nobody," yet
that
sounds like a perfect description of your interminable argument
with
IMM. You're one of the groups most prolific posters and a fair
percentage of your postings involve you going through the same
tired
rigamarole.

If you spent just half as much time regurgitating opinion
presented
as
fact, you'd be able to try every product in the PPPro range, take
them
all back and turn a tidy profit from the "recompense for lost
time"
you
always get from the store manager.

While taking tools back to B&Q may do nothing for you, publicly
proclaiming your debatable superiority to IMM clearly fulfills a
need
that transcends monetary value.

I thought it was just IMM that was the ****

No, he's got company.

And if he didn't exist, you'd have to invent him.

You mean like John / Adam / IMM / Doctor Evil / top gear, has
invented
you
to back him / it / her up.

Mr Cheese, you missed out Icky the Firebobby.


I missed out **** as well, but you never mentioned that.

Icky the ****?


See, you have got a sense of humour after all.

Mr Chesse, I am the funniest person in the world.


_________________________________________
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More than 120,000 groups
Unlimited download
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