tony sayer wrote: The Bosch ones are still
around after many years service...


I was very careful to say that the days of a reliable European product
are long gone. Historically Bosch products were very long lived. but so
were Hoover and Hotpoint. Their modern iterations have very unenviable
reputations, likewise Dewalt and Sears to some extent!!

Regards
Capitol

Pete C wrote:

Skil are quite good, they are EU made and come with a 2yr warranty and
spares availability.


I had the chuck spin off my Skil drill during operation!!! It's a taper
fit.

Regards
Capitol

Capitol wrote in
:



Pete C wrote:

Skil are quite good, they are EU made and come with a 2yr warranty
and spares availability.


I had the chuck spin off my Skil drill during operation!!! It's a
taper
fit.

Regards
Capitol


Skil are Bosch.

--
Rod

www.annalaurie.co.uk

Rod Hewitt wrote:

Skil are Bosch.


Is that like soylent green is people?

How exactly are Skil Bosch?


--
Grunff

Grunff wrote in :

Rod Hewitt wrote:

Skil are Bosch.


Is that like soylent green is people?

Probably also Bosch... :-)

How exactly are Skil Bosch?

As I understand, Bosch bought Skil. Apparently mainly because of Skil's
dominance in the circular saw market. Bosch also bought Dremel.

--
Rod

www.annalaurie.co.uk

"Grunff" wrote in message
...
Rod Hewitt wrote:

Skil are Bosch.


Is that like soylent green is people?

How exactly are Skil Bosch?


They were taken over by Bosch in 1996, but still trade as Skil.

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:

I seldom have difficulty after an appropriate discussion with somebody
of authority at the retailer. If there is any inconvenience or time
wasting, compensation is normally forthcoming as well.

You obviously have a lot of experience of taking things back.

Are these expensive branded items you've researched extensively, chosen
for their inherent reliability and paid a high price for -- but which
have, nevertheless, subsequently gone wrong?

Or are they the sort of cheap, no-name rubbish you assure us you never
buy?

Just curious.

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:

On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 13:36:22 -0000, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:

I find the best price/performance is Ryobi and Kress (Wickes)



I can understand that......


But, Andy, Kress have previously rebadged their products for
Porter-Cable and Mafell (two names that should surely give any
self-respecting label-whore a boner).

The only reason you don't like them is that IMM recommends them.

Aren't you being as irrational and dogmatic as you accuse him of being?

Andy Hall am typed:

Using anything other then professional/industrial quality tools, and
anyone that does, must produce a lower quality job then you.

Depending on the type of tool and the application, that can certainly
be the case. There are certainly examples such as planes,

One of the few cheep tools, and partly the reason I defend them is the £10
Chinese no brand planner I have.
It not used that often and only out of my workshop for snagging bits, but
its lasted over 2 years and not flown apart and decapitated me yet, and the
funny thing is it's a carbon copy of the Makita 1923. With a £140 price
difference.

, jig saws and so on where it absolutely is.

Cheep ones are under powered and vibrate to much, people try to cut 30mm
chipboard work-tops and then complain they don't cut straight, horses for
courses apples here.


But then go on to suggest that you can drill holes in masonry with a
non-hammer battery drill ;-(

... and so you can. It is perfectly possible to drill holes in
breeze blocks

breeze blocks = masonry ! have you had your pinky removed ?

and non engineering bricks with a good quality non
hammer battery drill.

NO they haven't made bricks that soft for 200 years, try it on an ordinary
common wire-cut fritten with a drill/hole larger then 4mm, again horses for
courses apples here.

--
Mark§

Andy Hall am typed:

In your extensive drill research, have you really been to
Argos to try one of the JCB drills. ?
if so you do need to get a life....


There's no need. Just pick up anything else in any DIY store at the
same price point. THey are all basically the same.
When looking some while ago, I picked one up and put it down again,
then went elsewhere. That takes very little time.

"Do you *really* believe that this is an *objective* view?
? What possible
relevance does this have? Where are the figures of the tests?"

Your own words !
Tunnel vision ?
Dimm similarities ?

(Although in this case I may have to agree


--
Mark§

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:

I don't want to waste time having to go and wait in
queues at DIY stores to get failed cheap tools replaced whether they
have a three year warranty or not. That is a time wasting,
frustrating and pointless exercise which benefits nobody.

I'm curious to know how you calculate a value for your time.

In relation to returning failed tools, you say, "That is a time wasting,
frustrating and pointless exercise which benefits nobody," yet that
sounds like a perfect description of your interminable argument with
IMM. You're one of the groups most prolific posters and a fair
percentage of your postings involve you going through the same tired
rigamarole.

If you spent just half as much time regurgitating opinion presented as
fact, you'd be able to try every product in the PPPro range, take them
all back and turn a tidy profit from the "recompense for lost time" you
always get from the store manager.

While taking tools back to B&Q may do nothing for you, publicly
proclaiming your debatable superiority to IMM clearly fulfills a need
that transcends monetary value.

I thought it was just IMM that was the ****

No, he's got company.

And if he didn't exist, you'd have to invent him.

mike typed:

Porter-Cable and Mafell (two names that should surely give any
self-respecting label-whore a boner).

LOL

Totally and utterly disgusting language! Some people have no shame.

Phat ******* will be along? I can't wait......

Lobster wrote:


Spot the uk.d-i-y newbie!!?

I claim my =A35


I am indeed a newbie - perhaps a fresh look sees things you don't.

Dr Evil (sorry, don't know your real name) makes some interesting
points and express's valid opinions from what I've seen.

By all means dissagree, but there is no need for personal attacks -
that's all I'm saying.

Dave

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 23:33:52 GMT, mike wrote:

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:

On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 13:36:22 -0000, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:

I find the best price/performance is Ryobi and Kress (Wickes)



I can understand that......


But, Andy, Kress have previously rebadged their products for
Porter-Cable and Mafell (two names that should surely give any
self-respecting label-whore a boner).

Yes I'm aware of that.

I hadn't got into the *detail* of what different manufacturers do
because the thread was initially about drills, although I had touched
on it a couple of times.

I don't feel, and I don't think that I have ever said that *all* tools
from a particular manufacturer or brand are automatically good or for
another that they are automatically bad.

To expand this a little:

- When I've looked at cordless drills, as I have on numerous
occasions, Makita has always come out at or near the top in terms of
mechanics, battery behaviour, motor control, balance of tool, recharge
behaviour etc. A possible, ahead of it is Panasonic who have
excellent battery technology. However, availability is not quite as
ubiquitous.

- I looked at sliding mitre saws. Choices were Makita LS1013, deWalt
708 and a Bosch, with Elektra Beckum as a possible. After a lot of
checking and deliberation, the Makita was the choice.

- Power screwdriver. I have a small DeWalt one. It's light and
convenient and works very well.

- 12.7mm router. I have a DeWalt 625. This is recognised as being
one of the best designs on the market, originating from Elu. There
are versions of it sold by Trend and CMT. It's an excellent and
solid router.

- Laminate trimmer. Another DeWalt. I bought a 110v one in the U.S.
because it was half the price of the UK. It's pretty good and has a
number of angles and accessories which is what I need.

- Biscuit jointer. I originally bought a DeWalt 682. It was a
disaster. A design fault means that the fence is at 87 degrees when
the indicator shows 90 and it can't be corrected. It took me some
time to discover this because I used it less early on than more
recently. It went back to Axminster tools, 18 months after purchase
and they happily refunded it with very few questions asked. That's
what I call proper service.
In the meantime, I looked at other brands and concluded that Lamello
would be the right choice. First of all, they were the originators of
biscuit joinery and secondly specialise in this area. I bought a
Lamello joiner. It wouldn't surprise you to know that it was from
Axminster tools. Actually their price was £15 higher than a
competitor. I mentioned this, and it was adjusted. However, given
the level of service over the other tool, I wouldn't have pushed the
point.

- Pneumatic nailers. I have bought only two brands - Porter Cable
and Senco. However, I wouldn't dream of buying a Porter Cable
sander. They are junk.

- I have Metabo sanders. Why? because they are among the best on the
market. I can use my 450 all day and not have vibrating fingers
syndrome. Try that with a Black and Decker.

- Jig saw. I used to believe that jig saws were universally of
limited value because they wander but needed to replace an old one.
I took a look at a Bosch GST. It is like chalk and cheese. This is
an outstanding tool. With other Bosch products, I am less impressed.


I could list dozens of cases like this, but to be clear:

- No I don't automatically think that all tools from a given stable
are uniformly of good quality

- I pick and choose very carefully.

- I make the point that for me, purchase price is not the most
important factor but *a* factor. There are a whole raft of other
things that I take into account and I look at the lifetime cost and
quality. This does *not* mean that I simply throw money at the
issue. Far from it. If I am going to spend north of £150 for a
drill, £250 for a router or £400-500 for a mitre saw, believe me, I
research and check into it *very* carefully.

- I would rather invest the time and effort (and money) once in a long
time and get something really good, than to make a casual £40
purchase, probably waste three trips back to the store and have no
cover for it at all in three years. To me, that is a nonsense way to
do things.




The only reason you don't like them is that IMM recommends them.

No, that is not a reasonable conclusion at all. The only comment I
would make on that is that he has tended to make the point that cheap
stuff is good enough for DIY. I fundamentally don't accept that
principle.


Aren't you being as irrational and dogmatic as you accuse him of being?

Not at all. I always try to present well reasoned arguments. The
premises that I work from may be different for other people, and
that's fine. I have simply shared knowledge from personal experience
and based on a broader set of criteria than simply allowing volume
retailers to tell me what I should be buying. Some people, perhaps
even the majority are happy to allow that. Based on the stuff moving
off the shelves in B&Q, that may well be true. However, ask yourself
just how much of that is intelligent buying by the consumer and how
much is dictated by what is on the shelves.

If somebody suggests to me that something should be done in a certain
way or be purchased and there is an apparent formulaic element to it,
then I naturally check it out. There are people all around us who
would like us to do things in a particular way because it suits them
for whatever reasons. I could quote you dozens of examples of this
from all walks of life. For me, I seem to have something of a nose
for it and if it matters as it often does, then I check it out and
very often do something different with me, not them in the driving
seat.


I hope that that makes the point abundantly clear.



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 23:20:11 GMT, mike wrote:

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:

I seldom have difficulty after an appropriate discussion with somebody
of authority at the retailer. If there is any inconvenience or time
wasting, compensation is normally forthcoming as well.

You obviously have a lot of experience of taking things back.

I have some. Generally, by buying decent things, the frequency of
having to do so is small.



Are these expensive branded items you've researched extensively, chosen
for their inherent reliability and paid a high price for -- but which
have, nevertheless, subsequently gone wrong?

Let me give you a few examples.


Read my other post regarding the DeWalt biscuit jointer. This was
certainly not a cheap item, and when it was apparent that there was a
defect, a refund was made after 18 months. The retailer (Axminster
Tools) received my business for a replacement Lamello. That is what I
mean by good service.

A couple of years ago when they first became available, I bought a B&D
Scorpion saw from B&Q. It was primarily for outdoor work with
branches etc. I believe that the cost was in the £70 area at the time.
The first one that I had simply stopped working. It went back for a
replacement. THe second one jammed and the motor overheated. That's
the end as far as I am concerned. It went back and was refunded.
With a small prompt regarding compensation, £15 of B&Q vouchers were
forthcoming.

Several years ago, my daughter wanted a particular double CD, which
she had identified was only available from Virgin. I was cajoled
into going to buy it for her, on a Saturday morning from their store
in Reading, some 10 miles away. I hate going into Reading town
centre on Saturdays (come to thing of it, I'm not excited at the best
of times) but went and parked up and bought the required CD.
I got it home and discovered that there were two of one CD and not the
second. Of course daughter *had* to have it that day, so back I
went. Everything on the shelf was the same, but then Virgin found
another box with the second CD and put it all together. There was a
short discussion about compensation for wasted trip, time and parking.
They gave me £30 of vouchers.

Not long ago, I called a Marks and Spencer store about 7 miles drive
away to ask them if they had a particular size, colour and style of
shirt that I had seen that I liked. I spoke to somebody in the
department and they confirmed that they did and would keep one for me
until I could get there. I arrived, found the person. Yes they had
put a shirt to one side, but it was wrong on all three counts. The
manager and I had a little discussion. I left the store with £10 in
cash to cover the cost of getting there for a wasted trip. I had
bought nothing.

I went to an exhaust replacement place a year or so ago after phoning
round to check price and availability of parts. At the one I chose, I
asked them again to check and make sure that they had got the pieces
because I didn't want to waste time. They assured me that they did.
I got there, and they didn't have any of the materials, but would have
to go to the suppliers to get them. It was going to take two hours
and did I want to wait or come back. I waited. There was a
discussion with the manager. I didn't pay.


The moral of these stories is that it is possible to get good service,
and each of these retailers has had repeat business with the exception
of the exhaust place. I don't do business with people that
deliberately lie.

Equally, I have had major rows with Homebase, Focus, Great Mills and
others over the return of faulty products - typically at the cheap
end.

This is why I very rarely buy cheap tools and very, very rarely go to
these retailers. The experience has almost always been
disappointing, and each time I am reminded not to use most crappy
volume retailers and not to buy cheap products. It simply isn't worth
the trouble.

You might think that I was hard with the others in expecting that they
resolve the problem and compensate me for the cost and inconvenience.

I don't see it that way. They have quite happily sold me the product
and have not said that it will fall apart after I buy it. I only ever
ask that people do what they say they are going to do. If they do
more then everybody can be pleasantly surprised and more business
happens.

If they do less, then that is not acceptable and I will do whatever is
reasonably required to get the situation corrected. That doesn't mean
pursuing 50p to the bitter end. However, it does mean, on the basis
of reasonableness and expectation that if I have bought a product that
is not at the bottom end of the spectrum, that I have a stronger
negotiating position, both morally and legally.

I have only ever once had to resort to law to get a situation
resolved, and that was done entirely at the cost of the supplier by my
not paying them and their initiating action.

I don't go out of my way to be a latter-day Victor Meldrew, even
though it may sound like it. Almost all the time I am satisfied with
my purchases, although that is mainly because I take the trouble
before buying and I don't buy junk. However, this does mean that
when something goes wrong, I do expect the appropriate party to
correct it. I don't take prisoners regarding that issue.

Sorry if that sounds unusual, but it works very effectively for me.



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 23:55:55 GMT, mike wrote:

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:

I don't want to waste time having to go and wait in
queues at DIY stores to get failed cheap tools replaced whether they
have a three year warranty or not. That is a time wasting,
frustrating and pointless exercise which benefits nobody.

I'm curious to know how you calculate a value for your time.

Quite easily.

In one direction I look at my professional and opportunity costs for
my normal daily work (which is unrelated to DIY). That amounts to
quite a bit, but I use it as a sanity check before doing work myself
vs. getting somebody to do it.

There are some jobs that I simply won't do such as anything involving
going above first floor window level on a ladder. I am unhappy with
heights. Another is plastering. I have never had enough to do to be
able to master it to a good enough standard.

Anything else is up for grabs.

So then I trade off can I do a better job than the tradesperson?
Almost always yes. Can I do it at my convenience? Yes. Will I
enjoy doing it? Maybe yes, maybe no. What would be the cost of
getting in a tradesperson?

I then take the tradesperson's cost and either add 50 or 100% to it.
If I still feel that the job i going to be enjoyable and meets the
other criteria, then I will do it. Occasionally I put a job out
because of time expediency. I don't have limitless free time so
jobs have to be worthwhile - i.e. quality, convenience, enjoyability,
saving of money.

From this, it's then pretty easy to calculate a value for my time. On
the basis of 1.5 to 2 times a trasdesman's cost, making trips to B&Q
because of ****ology with materials and tools is a very expensive
exercise. It also detracts considerably from enjoyability of the job
and if it's because of a crap tool, the possible quality of the
outcome.





If you spent just half as much time regurgitating opinion presented as
fact, you'd be able to try every product in the PPPro range, take them
all back and turn a tidy profit from the "recompense for lost time" you
always get from the store manager.

I doubt whether they would compensate for these tools.



While taking tools back to B&Q may do nothing for you, publicly
proclaiming your debatable superiority to IMM clearly fulfills a need
that transcends monetary value.


What a curious idea you have. I've explained clearly and logically
the basis of what I do. It works well for me. You may choose to
think otherwise. That's your prerogative.




--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 23:46:33 GMT, "Mark" wrote:

Andy Hall am typed:

Using anything other then professional/industrial quality tools, and
anyone that does, must produce a lower quality job then you.

Depending on the type of tool and the application, that can certainly
be the case. There are certainly examples such as planes,

One of the few cheep tools, and partly the reason I defend them is the £10
Chinese no brand planner I have.
It not used that often and only out of my workshop for snagging bits, but
its lasted over 2 years and not flown apart and decapitated me yet, and the
funny thing is it's a carbon copy of the Makita 1923. With a £140 price
difference.


I guess you mean the small electric planers? On that one I would
agree wih you. I have had a similar thing costing a little more in
the past. It was fine for doing certain rough jobs, which come up
occasionally.

I wouldn't dream of letting a tool like this near any reasonable
woodworking though, because they really are too rough to be useful.
For that I have a woodworking machine which is a different thing
altogether, but that is because I do woodworking as a serious hobby.
It then happens that I can produce almost any size, shape or profile
of timber that *can* be used for DIY. It wouldn't be considered a
DIY tool by any stretch of the imagination.

I like to work with wood. Among my favourite tools to use are some
Lie-Nielsen hand planes. I use them for specific purposes and
sometimes just when the mood takes me. I take a great deal of care
of them because they are beautifully made and they are not
inexpensive. They are very, very rewarding to use.


, jig saws and so on where it absolutely is.

Cheep ones are under powered and vibrate to much, people try to cut 30mm
chipboard work-tops and then complain they don't cut straight, horses for
courses apples here.

Mmmm. It's generally poor mechanics and the blade holding mechanism.
On the Bosch, motor control helps as well. You can run it very
slowly.





But then go on to suggest that you can drill holes in masonry with a
non-hammer battery drill ;-(

... and so you can. It is perfectly possible to drill holes in
breeze blocks

breeze blocks = masonry ! have you had your pinky removed ?

Aboslutely not. Breezeblocks are very definitely masonry. So are
light housebricks. They aren't wood or plastic, are they?




and non engineering bricks with a good quality non
hammer battery drill.

NO they haven't made bricks that soft for 200 years, try it on an ordinary
common wire-cut fritten with a drill/hole larger then 4mm, again horses for
courses apples here.

I have. It does work. I am not talking about making 12mm holes or
anything of great substance, but for drilling a few holes up to about
8mm for fixing something to a wall, the small Makita does a perfectly
good job.

If I want to do more substantial masonry work or more of it, then I
get out my Bosch SDS Multidrill. That will do anything else that I
need to achieve regarding drilling, apart, perhaps from dentistry.









--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 23:54:04 GMT, "Mark" wrote:

Andy Hall am typed:

In your extensive drill research, have you really been to
Argos to try one of the JCB drills. ?
if so you do need to get a life....


There's no need. Just pick up anything else in any DIY store at the
same price point. THey are all basically the same.
When looking some while ago, I picked one up and put it down again,
then went elsewhere. That takes very little time.

"Do you *really* believe that this is an *objective* view?


It's objective enough. Read my other posts on this and experiences of
buying this grade of tool at most outlets. Picking one of these up,
fiddling with the mechanics and looking at the build quality tells me
all I need to know.

Periodically, I have the opportunity to look at some of these in more
detail with battery pack installed. THe conclusions don't change.




--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Oh they will direct personal attacks at you. That is for sure. These jolly DIYers, know all the answers to all known questions and the answers to all the questions that have never even been asked.

Norm and the other Yankie man on TV use Porter Cable.
I am the most level headed, rational, reasonable, subjective person on earth. This is a known fact.

If you say you agree with me they will think you are me. They even think Icky the Firebobby is me too.

Magician wrote:
Lobster wrote:

Spot the uk.d-i-y newbie!!?

I claim my £5

I am indeed a newbie - perhaps a fresh look sees things you don't.

And nothing wrong with that at all!

Dr Evil (sorry, don't know your real name) makes some interesting
points and express's valid opinions from what I've seen.

By all means dissagree, but there is no need for personal attacks -
that's all I'm saying.

See http://tinyurl.com/5kq2u for starters, and you may begin to see why
Grunff's "attack" was positively restrained.... :-)

David

I thought it was just IMM that was the ****

No, he's got company.


And if he didn't exist, you'd have to invent him.

Hm. Now that *is* an interesting thought!
But, as ever, you can't fault Andy's logic. The real question is, are Makita
cool?

In article ,
Doctor Evil wrote:
But you can get 10 of those for one Makita, so they are more cost
effective. And in time Lith Iron or Lith Poly batteries would have been
introduced. Better than being lumbered for 10 years with outdated stuff
with old battery technology.

Most decent quality drills today will work perfectly well with present day
battery technology. What may, or may not, be wonderful for a mobile phone
doesn't necessarily mean the same advances for power tools. There's just
no point in making a cordless drill smaller or lighter than current decent
ones - except possibly for specialist use. And you can be certain any new
battery technology will be more expensive and have other disadvantages.
Self discharge is one. Doesn't matter on a phone which will be charged
regularly. But a DIY cordless drill which was flat each time you wanted it
would be a waste of time.

--
*On the seventh day He brewed beer *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Doctor Evil wrote:
BTW, my Makita has very nice NiMH packs. Light and high capacity.

Read what I read. Lith Ion and Lith Poly batteries and now Lithium
Sulphur, will be introduced as these hold 3 to 4 times the charge of the
current crop. These batteries mean electric cars are now feasible with
ranges of 200-300 miles.

You seem to have missed this bit on their advertising blurb

"For high power applications in power tools and appliances, Li-S is nearly
the same as nickel cadmium and nickel metal hydride in its rate capability"

Now the high current rate of a decent Ni-Cad is *essential* to a decent
drill - just changing the mediocre ones supplied with a PPPro etc for good
ones makes a vast difference to even that drill.

--
*It was recently discovered that research causes cancer in rats.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Doctor Evil wrote:
It could have been but isn't. If you look at Makita's battery
offerings, you will note that they offer battery packs of newer
technologies and capacities as they have become available.

I don't see any Lithium batteries on offer.

Lithium batteries ain't the best choice for power tools. In exactly the
same way as combis aren't the solution to everyone's hot water
requirements.

--
*Middle age is when it takes longer to rest than to get tired.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:
I have a Makita 14.4v and a larger 18v, but neither are hammer action.
The 14.4 will comfortably do up to mid range masonry holes - e.g. 8mm
hole for a wall fixing, with no hammer action. The 18v will do
somewhat more. I don't have or use a hammer action on either of
them because for masonry work above that level I occasionally use a
corded drill or more typically an SDS. Either will do a far better
job than a cordless hammer drill, even with decent batteries and
mechanics like Makita produce.

Yup. I can't see the benefit of the added complication and weight of
hammer action on a cordless, given that most common bricks etc can be
drilled OK with a decent bit and no hammer action. For engineering bricks
or concrete you need SDS anyway. And an SDS cordless is for even more
specialised needs.

--
*Two many clicks spoil the browse *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 10:31:25 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Doctor Evil wrote:
But you can get 10 of those for one Makita, so they are more cost
effective. And in time Lith Iron or Lith Poly batteries would have been
introduced. Better than being lumbered for 10 years with outdated stuff
with old battery technology.

Most decent quality drills today will work perfectly well with present day
battery technology. What may, or may not, be wonderful for a mobile phone
doesn't necessarily mean the same advances for power tools. There's just
no point in making a cordless drill smaller or lighter than current decent
ones - except possibly for specialist use. And you can be certain any new
battery technology will be more expensive and have other disadvantages.
Self discharge is one. Doesn't matter on a phone which will be charged
regularly. But a DIY cordless drill which was flat each time you wanted it
would be a waste of time.


Maybe we should get him a hacksaw with lithium battery for
Christmas....... It could save a lot of problems for a lot of
people..... :-)





--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 10:49:06 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:
I have a Makita 14.4v and a larger 18v, but neither are hammer action.
The 14.4 will comfortably do up to mid range masonry holes - e.g. 8mm
hole for a wall fixing, with no hammer action. The 18v will do
somewhat more. I don't have or use a hammer action on either of
them because for masonry work above that level I occasionally use a
corded drill or more typically an SDS. Either will do a far better
job than a cordless hammer drill, even with decent batteries and
mechanics like Makita produce.

Yup. I can't see the benefit of the added complication and weight of
hammer action on a cordless, given that most common bricks etc can be
drilled OK with a decent bit and no hammer action. For engineering bricks
or concrete you need SDS anyway. And an SDS cordless is for even more
specialised needs.

I can think of one person that I know who has and benefits from one of
these, and that is a professional antenna and satellite dish
installation guy.


He has a cordless Bosch SDS of nominal 2kg IIRC. The battery pack
doubles that I would think. He has a harness for when he's climbing
ladders etc. to prevent the drill from getting caught.

He tells me that he feels a lot safer with it than a corded model,
although still has to deal with feeder cables, of course. Plus he's
more productive for sure.

For him, it was certainly a worthwhile buy, but I believe he paid over
£300 for it at the time.





--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In article , Andy Hall
writes
On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 10:49:06 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:
I have a Makita 14.4v and a larger 18v, but neither are hammer action.
The 14.4 will comfortably do up to mid range masonry holes - e.g. 8mm
hole for a wall fixing, with no hammer action. The 18v will do
somewhat more. I don't have or use a hammer action on either of
them because for masonry work above that level I occasionally use a
corded drill or more typically an SDS. Either will do a far better
job than a cordless hammer drill, even with decent batteries and
mechanics like Makita produce.

Yup. I can't see the benefit of the added complication and weight of
hammer action on a cordless, given that most common bricks etc can be
drilled OK with a decent bit and no hammer action. For engineering bricks
or concrete you need SDS anyway. And an SDS cordless is for even more
specialised needs.

I can think of one person that I know who has and benefits from one of
these, and that is a professional antenna and satellite dish
installation guy.


He has a cordless Bosch SDS of nominal 2kg IIRC. The battery pack
doubles that I would think. He has a harness for when he's climbing
ladders etc. to prevent the drill from getting caught.

He tells me that he feels a lot safer with it than a corded model,
although still has to deal with feeder cables, of course. Plus he's
more productive for sure.

For him, it was certainly a worthwhile buy, but I believe he paid over
£300 for it at the time.





Actually I borrowed one of these off a M8 of mine for a few weeks last
summer and its a super bit of kit I had to drill quite a few holes in
a concrete house and it went through it like it didn't exist.

Pity but I can't justify one for my needs, but for the line of work he's
in, aerial rigging!, it is a must....
--
Tony Sayer

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 10:49:06 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:
I have a Makita 14.4v and a larger 18v, but neither are hammer action.
The 14.4 will comfortably do up to mid range masonry holes - e.g. 8mm
hole for a wall fixing, with no hammer action. The 18v will do
somewhat more. I don't have or use a hammer action on either of
them because for masonry work above that level I occasionally use a
corded drill or more typically an SDS. Either will do a far better
job than a cordless hammer drill, even with decent batteries and
mechanics like Makita produce.

Yup. I can't see the benefit of the added complication and weight of
hammer action on a cordless, given that most common bricks etc can be
drilled OK with a decent bit and no hammer action. For engineering bricks
or concrete you need SDS anyway. And an SDS cordless is for even more
specialised needs.

I can think of one person that I know who has and benefits from one of
these, and that is a professional antenna and satellite dish
installation guy.


He has a cordless Bosch SDS of nominal 2kg IIRC. The battery pack
doubles that I would think. He has a harness for when he's climbing
ladders etc. to prevent the drill from getting caught.

He tells me that he feels a lot safer with it than a corded model,
although still has to deal with feeder cables, of course. Plus he's
more productive for sure.

For him, it was certainly a worthwhile buy, but I believe he paid over
£300 for it at the time.


I use a DeWalt DW999K2 18v SDS for fixing pipe hangers in places like
underground car parks where there is no local power source. It's much
lighter than the 24volt Bosch SDS especially when you have to work overhead,
although Bosch are probably much better tools in terms of reliability.

I don't go out of my way to be a latter-day Victor Meldrew, even
though it may sound like it.

Sound like it? I reckon they based the bloody series on you.

Dave

On 26 Feb 2005 04:47:00 -0800, "Magician"
wrote:

I don't go out of my way to be a latter-day Victor Meldrew, even
though it may sound like it.

Sound like it? I reckon they based the bloody series on you.

Dave

Not really.

One can take one's choice.

Option one is to listen to what the TV advertising tells you, what the
large retailers would like you to buy at the cheapest possible price
because they have you convinced that that is what is best for you.
THey provide long "warranties" to cope with the British disease of
indecision and never wanting to complain when something is wrong. The
"warranty" gives us "permission" to take something back without
needing to have any kind of discussion with the retailer about product
use and quality. The cost of this gets pushed back to the
manufacturer, who in turn pushes back down the chain to..... you've
guessed it - the consumer. Of course he will never complain anyway.

This is why we have crappy tools in crappy retailers and crappy cheap
processed food in even crappier supermarkets.

It's no coincidence that if we are stopped in the street or
interviewed in our homes for a market survey, that questions about
whether we are in a role that involves service or working with
customers are placed at the beginning. If we are, then such
interviews are very short.

If we follow option one, we deserve what we get. This is the broad and
easy road that leads to ever declining standards of product quality
and service in the pursuit of the cheaper price today. It's a
completely hollow victory for all concerned.


Personally, I prefer to follow a different option to that which
involves buying quality products, looking at the *whole* picture,
including but certainly not limited to the price, or as much as I can.
This probably doesn't work for everybody. It's certainly not popular
with the volume retailers, but then I use them less and less as time
goes by. If something is wrong with something that I buy, yes I am
afraid that I do expect the supplier to fix it, whether it be a £150
drill or a £15 joint of beef. Remember that I have not asked anybody
to do anything more than they said they would. It's a question of
accountability. I don't expect situations always to be perfect.
However, if they are not, then I do reasonably expect them to be
fixed. I really don't understand why people have difficulty with
that.

It's a pretty simple choice.......










--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 12:10:23 +0000, tony sayer
wrote:






Actually I borrowed one of these off a M8 of mine for a few weeks last
summer and its a super bit of kit I had to drill quite a few holes in
a concrete house and it went through it like it didn't exist.

Pity but I can't justify one for my needs, but for the line of work he's
in, aerial rigging!, it is a must....

Exactly. He's doing something like 10 installations a day if it's
contract grade aerials or subsidised Sky dishes, or half that number
for good materials and a proper job.


He reckons that it saves him a good 30 minutes a day at least, as well
as feeling a great deal safer.





--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

I think Argos sell a DIY battery SDS for around #50-60. Must be OK for DIY.

I think Argos sell a DIY battery SDS for around #50-60. Must be OK for DIY.

Of course, this is tosh.

Of course, this is total tosh.

His logic? He has been ripped apart by many knowledgable people here. Sheep to the slaughter.