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  #1   Report Post  
Lobster
 
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Default Erbauer drills 14.4V vs 18V?

I'm (still) in the market for a new cordless combi drill, and am coming
close to settling for an Erbauer, based on a combination of price vs
quality (as judged from uk.d-i-y reviews!)

I'm puzzled that the 14.4V model is priced 20 quid cheaper than the 18V
model, in the absence of any apparent special offers:

14.4V (100 GBP)
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...18841&id=64978

18V (80 GBP)
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...18841&id=71776

The 18V one seems to outperform the 14.V in every aspect but weight
(2.6kg vs 2.0kg) - is that the issue? or am I missing the obvious?

Thanks for any feedback

David
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Grunff
 
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Lobster wrote:
I'm (still) in the market for a new cordless combi drill, and am coming
close to settling for an Erbauer, based on a combination of price vs
quality (as judged from uk.d-i-y reviews!)

I'm puzzled that the 14.4V model is priced 20 quid cheaper than the 18V
model, in the absence of any apparent special offers:

14.4V (100 GBP)
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...18841&id=64978

18V (80 GBP)
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...18841&id=71776

The 18V one seems to outperform the 14.V in every aspect but weight
(2.6kg vs 2.0kg) - is that the issue? or am I missing the obvious?



Isn't that strange?

I had the 18V for a while, and was pretty happy with it until it failed.
It developed play between the motor and the casing after 18 months
reasonably hard work, and went back for a refund. It is certainly a
better drill than PPPro etc., and significantly more torquey than an 18V
Ryobi.

Just make sure you keep the receipt.


--
Grunff
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John Stumbles
 
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Grunff wrote:

I had the 18V for a while, and was pretty happy with it until it failed.
It developed play between the motor and the casing after 18 months
reasonably hard work, and went back for a refund. It is certainly a
better drill than PPPro etc., and significantly more torquey than an 18V
Ryobi.


Last PPPro drill I had _was_ a Ryobi - though possibly built down to the
(much lower) price B&Q were flogging it for.
  #4   Report Post  
Andy Hall
 
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On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 21:18:18 GMT, Lobster
wrote:

I'm (still) in the market for a new cordless combi drill, and am coming
close to settling for an Erbauer, based on a combination of price vs
quality (as judged from uk.d-i-y reviews!)

I'm puzzled that the 14.4V model is priced 20 quid cheaper than the 18V
model, in the absence of any apparent special offers:

14.4V (100 GBP)
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...18841&id=64978

18V (80 GBP)
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...18841&id=71776

The 18V one seems to outperform the 14.V in every aspect but weight
(2.6kg vs 2.0kg) - is that the issue? or am I missing the obvious?

Thanks for any feedback

David


Don't buy either of these. You can get a Makita 14.4v 6228 with two
batteries for the same or little more money and have far better
results than with either of these unknown products.

In the highly unlikely event that you need spares or service in the
future you will be able to get it.



--

..andy

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  #5   Report Post  
Mark
 
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Lobster typed:

I'm (still) in the market for a new cordless combi drill, and am
coming close to settling for an Erbauer, based on a combination of
price vs quality (as judged from uk.d-i-y reviews!)

I'm puzzled that the 14.4V model is priced 20 quid cheaper than the
18V model, in the absence of any apparent special offers:

14.4V (100 GBP)
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...18841&id=64978

18V (80 GBP)
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...18841&id=71776

The 18V one seems to outperform the 14.V in every aspect but weight
(2.6kg vs 2.0kg) - is that the issue? or am I missing the obvious?

Thanks for any feedback


its a Web price/Description cock-up order the 18v quick !!
check the real price in the latest catalogue


--
Mark§




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Doctor Evil
 
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"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 23:21:22 GMT, "Mark" wrote:

Andy Hall am typed:

On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 21:18:18 GMT, Lobster
wrote:

I'm (still) in the market for a new cordless combi drill, and am
SNIP

David

Don't buy either of these. You can get a Makita 14.4v 6228 with two
batteries for the same or little more money


A combi drill I think not. c £243
although I agree that makita are fine tools, if you can justify the cost.


There is very little point in buying a cheap cordless combi drill.
The mechanics and control of the motor are simply not up to any
meaningful hammer action for any length of time.

A far better solution is to buy a good quality cordless drill as I
have suggested (this will do anything up to and including light to
medium masonry work) and then a corded hammer or SDS drill for
heavier masonry work.


Given a period of a couple of years at the most, after which these
unknown specials will have fallen apart and the name long forgotten,
let alone any spares, the overall outlay in buying something decent in
the first place will be less.


But you can get 10 of those for one Makita, so they are more cost effective.
And in time Lith Iron or Lith Poly batteries would have been introduced.
Better than being lumbered for 10 years with outdated stuff with old battery
technology.

A man on this group has just bought a conventional flued cast iron boiler.
This is outdated old technology now. If he has this 15-20 years, in 15
years it will be an museum piece. Could be the same as buying an expensive
battery drill.



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  #11   Report Post  
Grunff
 
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Doctor Evil wrote:

But you can get 10 of those for one Makita, so they are more cost effective.
And in time Lith Iron or Lith Poly batteries would have been introduced.
Better than being lumbered for 10 years with outdated stuff with old battery
technology.


But that's kind of living for the future, isn't it? You always end up
with a crappy tool, just to avoid the possibility that you might miss
out on Feature X in 10 years time. You might get run over by a bus. Or
assassinated. Or something.

BTW, my Makita has very nice NiMH packs. Light and high capacity.


--
Grunff
  #12   Report Post  
Lurch
 
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On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 09:37:25 -0000, "Doctor Evil"
strung together this:

But you can get 10 of those for one Makita, so they are more cost effective.
And in time Lith Iron or Lith Poly batteries would have been introduced.
Better than being lumbered for 10 years with outdated stuff with old battery
technology.

Utter tripe. I've had a Makita 8443 for about 3 or 4 years and in that
time a cheap drill wouldn't have been able to do most of the stuff
I've done with it. If I tried the cheap drill would have been
knackered and I could get through more than 10 cheap battery drills
for every one Makita.

A man on this group .....


......with varying aliases is an arse.
--

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  #13   Report Post  
Doctor Evil
 
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"Mark" wrote in message
...
Doctor Evil typed:

I'm (still) in the market for a new cordless combi drill, and am
SNIP

David

Don't buy either of these. You can get a Makita 14.4v 6228 with
two batteries for the same or little more money

A combi drill I think not. c £243
although I agree that makita are fine tools, if you can justify the
cost.


Try Wickes (Kress) up to £180 depending on what you want.


No Hitachi would be a much better compromise at that price.
http://www.tool-net.co.uk/data/index.php?ToolID=318300
http://www.tool-net.co.uk/data/index.php?ToolID=313784


Kress are cheaper and have a 3 yr guarantee. They are as equally good in
quality. German with Japanese battery packs.

The 14.4 v drill/driver is a lot cheaper than the Hitachi, around £60 and
better guarantee, if I recall rightly. They have two SDS drills which have
just been improved in power. They have been making these for the past 10
years plus and have v good reputation for reliability.





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  #14   Report Post  
Doctor Evil
 
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"Grunff" wrote in message
...
Doctor Evil wrote:

But you can get 10 of those for one Makita,
so they are more cost effective.
And in time Lith Ion or Lith Poly batteries
would have been introduced.
Better than being lumbered for 10 years with
outdated stuff with old battery technology.


But that's kind of living for the future, isn't it? You always end up
with a crappy tool,


They are not crappy tool. The mid range offering a v good. The Makitas of
this world have logevity that's all.

BTW, my Makita has very nice NiMH packs. Light and high capacity.


Read what I read. Lith Ion and Lith Poly batteries and now Lithium Sulphur,
will be introduced as these hold 3 to 4 times the charge of the current
crop. These batteries mean electric cars are now feasible with ranges of
200-300 miles.

http://www.sionpower.com/pages/sion_...ogysummary.php

Lithium ion & poly batteries are in many mobile phones and were developed
for that market. Once R&D is finalised for larger versions of Lith Poly
batteries and they have the manufacturing capability to produce millions of
them, electric cars will be the norm, and probably sooner rather than later.

PV cells are improving in efficiency, and the price is dropping as take up
increaes, and when these Lithium batteries are available en-mass most roofs
will have PV cells on them, a battery set and an inverter in the attic.

This will filter into power tools too. And if you think you can just go out
and buy a new Lith Poly battery for your old drill. forget it, it doesn't
work that way,.




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Doctor Evil
 
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"Lurch" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 09:37:25 -0000, "Doctor Evil"
strung together this:

But you can get 10 of those for one Makita, so they are more cost

effective.
And in time Lith Iron or Lith Poly batteries would have been introduced.
Better than being lumbered for 10 years with outdated stuff with old

battery
technology.

Utter tripe. I've had a Makita 8443 for about 3 or 4 years


This is DIY, not pro, and.....

snip the rest as it is tripe



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Andy Hall
 
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On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 09:37:25 -0000, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
There is very little point in buying a cheap cordless combi drill.
The mechanics and control of the motor are simply not up to any
meaningful hammer action for any length of time.

A far better solution is to buy a good quality cordless drill as I
have suggested (this will do anything up to and including light to
medium masonry work) and then a corded hammer or SDS drill for
heavier masonry work.


Given a period of a couple of years at the most, after which these
unknown specials will have fallen apart and the name long forgotten,
let alone any spares, the overall outlay in buying something decent in
the first place will be less.


But you can get 10 of those for one Makita, so they are more cost effective.


Brilliant idea, I don't think. using your "logic" (or perhaps that of
Mini-me) you now have ten times the problems as the batteries, motors
and mechanics pack up and you waste time on each.

Your thinking is certainly following that of the character you are
trying to emulate. Do you have any children with Frau
Whatever-her-name-was? The son thought that the Dr Evil character
suffered from faulty logic to be kind about it.


And in time Lith Iron or Lith Poly batteries would have been introduced.
Better than being lumbered for 10 years with outdated stuff with old battery
technology.

A man on this group has just bought a conventional flued cast iron boiler.
This is outdated old technology now. If he has this 15-20 years, in 15
years it will be an museum piece. Could be the same as buying an expensive
battery drill.


It could have been but isn't. If you look at Makita's battery
offerings, you will note that they offer battery packs of newer
technologies and capacities as they have become available.




--

..andy

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  #17   Report Post  
Andy Hall
 
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On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 10:12:17 +0000, Grunff wrote:

Doctor Evil wrote:

But you can get 10 of those for one Makita, so they are more cost effective.
And in time Lith Iron or Lith Poly batteries would have been introduced.
Better than being lumbered for 10 years with outdated stuff with old battery
technology.


But that's kind of living for the future, isn't it? You always end up
with a crappy tool, just to avoid the possibility that you might miss
out on Feature X in 10 years time. You might get run over by a bus. Or
assassinated. Or something.


Like having to escape in a giant willy?


BTW, my Makita has very nice NiMH packs. Light and high capacity.



--

..andy

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  #18   Report Post  
Andy Hall
 
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On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 11:25:19 -0000, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:


"Grunff" wrote in message
...
Doctor Evil wrote:

But you can get 10 of those for one Makita,
so they are more cost effective.
And in time Lith Ion or Lith Poly batteries
would have been introduced.
Better than being lumbered for 10 years with
outdated stuff with old battery technology.


But that's kind of living for the future, isn't it? You always end up
with a crappy tool,


They are not crappy tool. The mid range offering a v good. The Makitas of
this world have logevity that's all.


Have you ever actually owned or used one?


I thought not....



--

..andy

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Andy Hall
 
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On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 11:31:34 -0000, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:


"Lurch" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 09:37:25 -0000, "Doctor Evil"
strung together this:

But you can get 10 of those for one Makita, so they are more cost

effective.
And in time Lith Iron or Lith Poly batteries would have been introduced.
Better than being lumbered for 10 years with outdated stuff with old

battery
technology.

Utter tripe. I've had a Makita 8443 for about 3 or 4 years


This is DIY, not pro, and.....



If that is the case, there is no place for a claimed "pro" such as
yourself, is there?



--

..andy

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  #20   Report Post  
Jim Alexander
 
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"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 11:25:19 -0000, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:


"Grunff" wrote in message
...
Doctor Evil wrote:

But you can get 10 of those for one Makita,
so they are more cost effective.
And in time Lith Ion or Lith Poly batteries
would have been introduced.
Better than being lumbered for 10 years with
outdated stuff with old battery technology.

But that's kind of living for the future, isn't it? You always end up
with a crappy tool,


They are not crappy tool. The mid range offering a v good. The Makitas of
this world have logevity that's all.


Have you ever actually owned or used one?


FWIW I looked at them at Interbuild last year and seemed fine. Good
balance, good speed control, seemed well made. All in all a perfectly
reasonable mid-range offering. I think your question could easily be
turned round.

Jim A




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Doctor Evil
 
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"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 09:37:25 -0000, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
There is very little point in buying a cheap cordless combi drill.
The mechanics and control of the motor are simply not up to any
meaningful hammer action for any length of time.

A far better solution is to buy a good quality cordless drill as I
have suggested (this will do anything up to and including light to
medium masonry work) and then a corded hammer or SDS drill for
heavier masonry work.


Given a period of a couple of years at the most, after which these
unknown specials will have fallen apart and the name long forgotten,
let alone any spares, the overall outlay in buying something decent in
the first place will be less.


But you can get 10 of those for one Makita, so they are more cost

effective.

Brilliant idea, I don't think. using your "logic" (or perhaps that of
Mini-me) you now have ten times the problems as the batteries, motors
and mechanics pack up and you waste time on each.

Your thinking is certainly following that of the character you are
trying to emulate. Do you have any children with Frau
Whatever-her-name-was? The son thought that the Dr Evil character
suffered from faulty logic to be kind about it.


Sonny boy wanted to shoot people.

And in time Lith Iron or Lith Poly batteries would have been introduced.
Better than being lumbered for 10 years with outdated stuff with old

battery
technology.

A man on this group has just bought a conventional flued cast iron

boiler.
This is outdated old technology now. If he has this 15-20 years, in 15
years it will be an museum piece. Could be the same as buying an

expensive
battery drill.


It could have been but isn't. If you look at Makita's battery
offerings, you will note that they offer battery packs of newer
technologies and capacities as they have become available.


I don't see any Lithium batteries on offer.


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Doctor Evil
 
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"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 11:25:19 -0000, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:


"Grunff" wrote in message
...
Doctor Evil wrote:

But you can get 10 of those for one Makita,
so they are more cost effective.
And in time Lith Ion or Lith Poly batteries
would have been introduced.
Better than being lumbered for 10 years with
outdated stuff with old battery technology.

But that's kind of living for the future, isn't it? You always end up
with a crappy tool,


They are not crappy tool. The mid range offering a v good. The Makitas

of
this world have logevity that's all.


Have you ever actually owned or used one?


I have used them, but never owned one. I have owned crappy Bosch, whuich
many say are the equiv. I learnt that these tools are way overpriced a long
time ago after being bitten a few times.

I find the best price/performance is Ryobi and Kress (Wickes)




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Doctor Evil
 
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"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 11:31:34 -0000, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:


"Lurch" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 09:37:25 -0000, "Doctor Evil"
strung together this:

But you can get 10 of those for one Makita, so they are more cost

effective.
And in time Lith Iron or Lith Poly batteries would have been

introduced.
Better than being lumbered for 10 years with outdated stuff with old

battery
technology.

Utter tripe. I've had a Makita 8443 for about 3 or 4 years


This is DIY, not pro, and.....


If that is the case, there is no place for a claimed "pro" such as
yourself, is there?


You definitely require my wisdom.


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Lobster
 
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Andy Hall wrote:
On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 21:18:18 GMT, Lobster
wrote:


I'm (still) in the market for a new cordless combi drill, and am coming
close to settling for an Erbauer, based on a combination of price vs
quality (as judged from uk.d-i-y reviews!)

I'm puzzled that the 14.4V model is priced 20 quid cheaper than the 18V
model, in the absence of any apparent special offers:

14.4V (100 GBP)
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...18841&id=64978

18V (80 GBP)
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...18841&id=71776

The 18V one seems to outperform the 14.V in every aspect but weight
(2.6kg vs 2.0kg) - is that the issue? or am I missing the obvious?


Oh dear - not only have I started yet another 'which drill?' thread;
I've kicked off another IMM vs .andy duel.... :-)

Don't buy either of these. You can get a Makita 14.4v 6228 with two
batteries for the same or little more money and have far better
results than with either of these unknown products.


I'd definitely really like a Makita; certainly money no object I'd
certainly go for one. Appreciate all the 'economy in the long run'
arguments, but I can't justify the outlay. One reason is risk of loss -
I often use my stuff away from home, carry it around in the car etc
and wouldn't be covered by insurance against theft.

I agree the 6228 is within my budget; however my drill will need to deal
with some masonry work, so I want hammer action which is why I'd
discounted it - I'd be looking at the Makita 8433, at 235 GBP or
thereabouts?

I've never used either a Makita or Erbauer personally: Andy, do you
really reckon the Makita 6228 will give "better results" than a hammer
action 18V Erbauer? (ie nothing to do with reliability or spares
availability)?

David
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Jim Alexander
 
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"Lobster" wrote in message
...
I'd definitely really like a Makita; certainly money no object I'd
certainly go for one. Appreciate all the 'economy in the long run'
arguments, but I can't justify the outlay. One reason is risk of loss - I
often use my stuff away from home, carry it around in the car etc and
wouldn't be covered by insurance against theft.

I agree the 6228 is within my budget; however my drill will need to deal
with some masonry work, so I want hammer action which is why I'd
discounted it - I'd be looking at the Makita 8433, at 235 GBP or
thereabouts?

I've never used either a Makita or Erbauer personally: Andy, do you really
reckon the Makita 6228 will give "better results" than a hammer action 18V
Erbauer? (ie nothing to do with reliability or spares availability)?


Haven't tried them personally yet but seen Cobalt multipurpose drills at
shows and on telly selly that claim to do masonry without hammer. Since
hammer is so puny on cordless perhaps that is a better way. If so lower
spec drills non-hammer drills may be worth considering. Interested in any
feedback about the Cobalt drills.

Jim A




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Andy Hall
 
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On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 13:36:22 -0000, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:



I have used them, but never owned one. I have owned crappy Bosch, whuich
many say are the equiv. I learnt that these tools are way overpriced a long
time ago after being bitten a few times.

I find the best price/performance is Ryobi and Kress (Wickes)



I can understand that......



--

..andy

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  #28   Report Post  
Andy Hall
 
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On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 17:57:51 GMT, "Mark" wrote:

Andy Hall am typed:


Don't buy either of these. You can get a Makita 14.4v 6228 with
two batteries for the same or little more money

A combi drill I think not. c £243
although I agree that makita are fine tools, if you can justify the
cost.


There is very little point in buying a cheap cordless combi drill.
The mechanics and control of the motor are simply not up to any
meaningful hammer action for any length of time.



This comes down *again* to the type/frequency of use and your available
budget.


There is also an impact on accuracy, ease of use and productivity.
If you don't cost your time then this may not matter.

If you do, then it matters a lot.

Professional, or DIYer with more money then ability.


Or somebody able and wishing to do a better job more quickly than is
possible with junk tools.

Again, if one costs in the *complete* situation and accounts for the
cost of time, it makes good economic sense to buy quality products
that are accurate, easy to use and do not fatigue the uset.


Real cheep battery operated tools such as the Argos and B&Q house brands are
a complete and utter waste of money, but *some* of the in-between brands are
fine IMHO for diy use.


That depends again on how/if you cost your time and the quality and
speed of the intended work. I don't automatically equate "DIY" with
cheap, poor quality, built down to a price point, and promoted by the
marketing pundits as "DIY grade" to an audience that will accept "good
enough". I don't think that "good enough" often is good enough.
A poorly made product will still be poor whether used for ten minutes
or all day.



A far better solution is to buy a good quality cordless drill as I
have suggested (this will do anything up to and including light to
medium masonry work)


LOL



Probably if you are using one of the catalogue unknown products that
will sink without trace next week, you would be. There is an enormous
difference between these and a proper product with decent mechanics,
controller and batteries.



--

..andy

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  #29   Report Post  
Andy Hall
 
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On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 14:50:49 GMT, Lobster
wrote:



I'd definitely really like a Makita; certainly money no object I'd
certainly go for one. Appreciate all the 'economy in the long run'
arguments, but I can't justify the outlay. One reason is risk of loss -
I often use my stuff away from home, carry it around in the car etc
and wouldn't be covered by insurance against theft.

I agree the 6228 is within my budget; however my drill will need to deal
with some masonry work, so I want hammer action which is why I'd
discounted it - I'd be looking at the Makita 8433, at 235 GBP or
thereabouts?

I've never used either a Makita or Erbauer personally: Andy, do you
really reckon the Makita 6228 will give "better results" than a hammer
action 18V Erbauer? (ie nothing to do with reliability or spares
availability)?


The issue is that I don't make buying decisions based on a single
issue of whether the Erbauer is going to drill a hole in masonry at a
certain speed on day 1 in comparison with a Makita on the same day.

I have a Makita 14.4v and a larger 18v, but neither are hammer action.
The 14.4 will comfortably do up to mid range masonry holes - e.g. 8mm
hole for a wall fixing, with no hammer action. The 18v will do
somewhat more. I don't have or use a hammer action on either of
them because for masonry work above that level I occasionally use a
corded drill or more typically an SDS. Either will do a far better
job than a cordless hammer drill, even with decent batteries and
mechanics like Makita produce.

Therefore, I would choose a good quality, well balanced and well
controlled 14.4v drill for small to medium hole drilling, or even
large in some materials, and screwdriving. Then to use something with
more brute force and power than can be achieved out of a cordless tool
by buying a reasonable corded SDS drill. Overall, I think that this
is a much better spread of matching quality and control where needed
ususally more frequently.


I also tend to look much bigger picture, by not limiting myself to
deciding based on what it did on day 1 in the shop and the price. To
me, cost of time is by far the highest cost, therefore I want to have
good quality tools that do a well controlled and precision job and can
be fixed if needed and relied upon for years. For me, this completely
rules out the catalogue and DIY store products that are sold on the
numbers game with seemingly attractive warranties but which in reality
are thrown out and replaced. I think that this is a valueless
concept because it simply encourages poorer and poorer items to flood
the market. I would much rather pay decent money for a good quality
tool that I can use well all day or probably get the job done more
quickly. I don't want to waste half a day waiting in a queue at the
DIY shop to get an exchange on an unknown product.

To me, spares availability, ease of use and build quality are much
larger issues than capital cost.

On the other hand, if purchase price is the biggest issue and cost of
personal time less important, then the equation may be different.

This is certainly a situation where one size doesn't fit all.



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl
  #31   Report Post  
Magician
 
Posts: n/a
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Andy, with respect, you are missing the plot completely.

First of all, cheaper power tools are fine for many applications.
Horses for courses.

I've always wanted a biscuit joiner, but for many years they have been
completely outside of my price range as a serious DIYer. Now they
arent, I can justify spending =A340 on one. Wouldn't last the week out
in a joinery shop, but it will give me years of service.

Secondly, there is a huge difference between 'cheaply made' and 'made
cheaply'.

For years the big boys in power tools have made huge margins and with
huge margins come huge expenses. Sales meetings in Spain, top of the
range company cars, hospitality etc. Now the big boys operate in the
real world and watch costs like a hawk.

Manufacturing techniques have also changed, JIT, L.E.A.N. etc.
Structural plastics have arrived.

I work for a multi national equipment manufacturer. In the last 5
years we have turned to L.E.A.N. manufacturing, outsourcing non
critical components to eastern Europe, use of advanced moulding
techniques etc. Our costs & prices have dropped by 30% - quality has
improved overall.

Dave

  #32   Report Post  
Doctor Evil
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Magician" wrote in message
oups.com...
Andy, with respect, you are missing the plot completely.

First of all, cheaper power tools are fine for many applications.
Horses for courses.

I've always wanted a biscuit joiner, but for many years they have been
completely outside of my price range as a serious DIYer. Now they
arent, I can justify spending £40 on one. Wouldn't last the week out
in a joinery shop, but it will give me years of service.

Secondly, there is a huge difference between 'cheaply made' and 'made
cheaply'.

For years the big boys in power tools have made huge margins and with
huge margins come huge expenses. Sales meetings in Spain, top of the
range company cars, hospitality etc. Now the big boys operate in the
real world and watch costs like a hawk.

Manufacturing techniques have also changed, JIT, L.E.A.N. etc.
Structural plastics have arrived.

I work for a multi national equipment manufacturer. In the last 5
years we have turned to L.E.A.N. manufacturing, outsourcing non
critical components to eastern Europe, use of advanced moulding
techniques etc. Our costs & prices have dropped by 30% - quality has
improved overall.

Dave


I see the likes of Makita do have the odd tool that is competitive. Their
margin must have been hit hard. I know many pros who buy mid price range
DIY stuff. They know it will not last 10 years, but don't expect it to
either. They do the job. Thyey just want to drive screws or drill holes,
that's all, not make a statement.



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  #33   Report Post  
.
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article , Doctor Evil
writes

I see the likes of Makita do have the odd tool that is competitive. Their
margin must have been hit hard. I know many pros who buy mid price range
DIY stuff. They know it will not last 10 years, but don't expect it to
either. They do the job. Thyey just want to drive screws or drill holes,
that's all, not make a statement.


John, I don't think this is true, can you direct me to a "pro" or a site
where this is happening? I promise not to mention your name but I'm
interested in establishing the facts. I keep but my eye out for this
sort of thing and admittedly spend all my working life on large sites
where it certainly isn't true but I have a small house development going
on next door where I notice they are also only using DeWalt and Makita,
are you only talking about plumbers?
--
David
  #35   Report Post  
Mark
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Magician"

Andy, with respect, you are missing the plot completely.


Poor boy has never been the same since the week at the Everest double
glazing sales conference. ;-(


  #36   Report Post  
top gear
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"." wrote in message
...
In article , Doctor Evil
writes

I see the likes of Makita do have the odd tool that is competitive. Their
margin must have been hit hard. I know many pros who buy mid price range
DIY stuff. They know it will not last 10 years, but don't expect it to
either. They do the job. Thyey just want to drive screws or drill holes,
that's all, not make a statement.


John, I don't think this is true, can you direct me to a "pro" or a site
where this is happening?


Bertie, you must look harder.

I promise not to mention your name but I'm
interested in establishing the facts. I keep but my eye out for this
sort of thing and admittedly spend all my working life on large sites


I know a lot of stuff needs removing.

where it certainly isn't true but I have a small house development going
on next door where I notice they are also only using DeWalt and Makita,
are you only talking about plumbers?


The wood workers use Makita and DeWalt virtually to man, but the others tend
to use what is available. I've seen a bit of Wickes (Kress about) and I
recall a comms crew who all had Parkside (cheap stuff from Lidle)




  #37   Report Post  
top gear
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"." wrote in message
...
In article , Doctor Evil
writes

I see the likes of Makita do have the odd tool that is competitive. Their
margin must have been hit hard. I know many pros who buy mid price range
DIY stuff. They know it will not last 10 years, but don't expect it to
either. They do the job. Thyey just want to drive screws or drill holes,
that's all, not make a statement.


John, I don't think this is true, can you direct me to a "pro" or a site
where this is happening? I promise not to mention your name but I'm
interested in establishing the facts. I keep but my eye out for this
sort of thing and admittedly spend all my working life on large sites
where it certainly isn't true but I have a small house development going
on next door where I notice they are also only using DeWalt and Makita,
are you only talking about plumbers?
--
David


Seeing as you all think I am Dr Evil I replied as him in the previous post.
Your name is Bertie isn't it?



  #38   Report Post  
Andy Hall
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On 23 Feb 2005 02:26:22 -0800, "Magician"
wrote:

Andy, with respect, you are missing the plot completely.


I am not missing the plot at all. I may have a different plot and
set of criteria to others but both are equally valid.

First of all, cheaper power tools are fine for many applications.
Horses for courses.


Precisely. It depends on the application and the quality of the
outcome that you are looking for. It also depends on how you cost
your time and what you are willing to accept in terms of ease of use,
productivity and outcome. Personally I value time expensively and
don't want to waste it titting around with cheap tools. I also want
to get work done accurately, and with good control and use of the
tool. Sorry but these do not come with unbranded catalogue and DIY
store products.

If your type of work is occasionally to put up a few shelves and be
reasonably happy with any reasonable outcome, you have copious spare
time and capital cost is the most important issue, certainly go ahead
and buy the cheapest. It will do *a* job. Personally, I don't find
that standard of work acceptable. I can easily do better, but it's a
quality and time issue for me with cost effectiveness (not cost) as a
very important factor.


I've always wanted a biscuit joiner, but for many years they have been
completely outside of my price range as a serious DIYer. Now they
arent, I can justify spending £40 on one. Wouldn't last the week out
in a joinery shop, but it will give me years of service.


That's probably true. I do a fair amount of biscuit joinery. I
began by buying a DeWalt 682. It isn't good enough because there is
a design fault whereby the fence is permanently 2-3 degrees out of
square. It went back. I have a Lamello. Why? Because it does a
precise job every time. I can get the spares whenever I need them and
it will most likely last beyond my lifetime.



Secondly, there is a huge difference between 'cheaply made' and 'made
cheaply'.


If there is no spares backup, no service and the name changes every
three months you are dealing with a warehousing and distribution
operation, not a proper manufacturer.

There is nothing wrong with making something to a price point as long
as this doesn't compromise the precision, usability, quality and
outcome. Outcome includes service, spares and backup in terms of my
purchasing criteria. If the product doesn't have that, then to me
it's largely worthless.



For years the big boys in power tools have made huge margins and with
huge margins come huge expenses.


Yes of course. Running a brand with proper service isn't cheap.

I don't think that replacing it with a throw away mentality is the
right answer. That is motivated by a throw away society where
retailers want to sell you a replacement.


Sales meetings in Spain, top of the
range company cars, hospitality etc. Now the big boys operate in the
real world and watch costs like a hawk.


As they should, but there is nothing wrong with proper brand
maintenance and service. If cost cutting is to meet the wants of the
large retailers then the fault lies with the retailers and frankly
with a subset of customers who think they should be able to get
something for nothing.

Sorry but I don't play the volume warehouse throw away game.



Manufacturing techniques have also changed, JIT, L.E.A.N. etc.
Structural plastics have arrived.

I work for a multi national equipment manufacturer. In the last 5
years we have turned to L.E.A.N. manufacturing, outsourcing non
critical components to eastern Europe, use of advanced moulding
techniques etc. Our costs & prices have dropped by 30% - quality has
improved overall.


That's a good achievement. As long as you haven't prostituted your
organisation to the large retailers and have maintained a quality
position and service to your customers, I think that you can have a
bright future. On the other hand, if you are dancing to the tune of
B&Q, Screwfix, Home Depot and all the rest, what will you use to
differentiate yourselves from the volume factories in China?

it's ultimately an issue of understanding your market and your
customer. Obviously if you feel that that is through the volume
retailers, fine. There is another way.....








Dave



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl
  #39   Report Post  
Lurch
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 23:21:52 -0000, "top gear"
strung together this:

Seeing as you all think I am Dr Evil I replied as him in the previous post.


Er, don't think so. Try looking into the settings a bit more, or use a
proper newsreader.
--

SJW
Please reply to group or use 'usenet' in email subject
  #40   Report Post  
Doctor Evil
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"top gear" wrote in message
...

"." wrote in message
...
In article , Doctor Evil
writes

I see the likes of Makita do have the odd tool that is competitive.

Their
margin must have been hit hard. I know many pros who buy mid price

range
DIY stuff. They know it will not last 10 years, but don't expect it to
either. They do the job. Thyey just want to drive screws or drill

holes,
that's all, not make a statement.


John, I don't think this is true, can you direct me to a "pro" or a site
where this is happening? I promise not to mention your name but I'm
interested in establishing the facts. I keep but my eye out for this
sort of thing and admittedly spend all my working life on large sites
where it certainly isn't true but I have a small house development going
on next door where I notice they are also only using DeWalt and Makita,
are you only talking about plumbers?
--
David


Seeing as you all think I am Dr Evil I replied as him in the previous

post.
Your name is Bertie isn't it?


I you have figured this lot out. There are about 6 or so here who are a
sandwich short of picnic, they are easy to spot.

Tools from Lidle, now there is s novelty. I can see all the overall clad
men at the checks with their Lidle drills.



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