On Fri, 1 Dec 2017 06:00:46 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

snip


So isn't it better to have 220V than 240 for this POV.

It may only be 'better' if it stops it cycling when it otherwise
might.

I said nothing about stoping, what's wrong with reducing cycling. ?

Because it means the heater won't be on, will be cooling down, so
giving off less heat.



Correct, 'designed voltage range' so as to either not damage the unit
or it not perform reasonably expected.

So conencting it to yuor home ~240V would in theory be overrating the heater as it was design for running at 230V NOT 240V

No, as I said, the chances are it was *designed* to run at 240V,

So why not state that as the operational voltage rather than 230V ?

I've already explained that.


it's
just been *de-rated* on paper to allow it more compatibility over
Europe.

And you'd just that would you.

What?

Perhaps the 32A MCB was designed to run at 40 amps.

It is.


So does this make it a more efficient heater ?

No. The efficiency will always be roughly the same. eg, ALL the energy
going into the unit *will* come out as heat.

So there's no way of imporving efficieny by say having more fins or larger surface area.

Yes, but that's not an option is it. The only way you can get close is
to give it less power which has the same effect of giving it more fins
/ larger surface area. That still won't affect the electrical
efficiency, only how effective it is in transferring the energy it
consumes to the environment.


remmeber the transformer installed lowers the voltage to increase 'efficiency'.

I don't need to remember that because I understand it so know that in
some (most) cases it will do no such thing.

How about in the case of heating, after all you;d hardly both with such a thimng to change the power consumption of an oscilloscope.

What?

So what are these things installed for ?(apart from making money from mugs)

You have already answered your own question there.



The only time it might improve anything will be to reduce the running
costs of things like lights (if designed for 230V and running them at
240V might make them 'overbright') and possibly (refrigeration) pumps,
if being over driven.

But if everything was designed to run at 240V .... this then makes NO sense.

But *everything* isn't, is it?



Most SMPSU's wouldn't care less (and often automatically fun from 110
to 240V, 50 or 60 Hz) and pure resistive loads won't care either but
just take more or less time to heat your room or heat your tea.

Yes I know. But there was talk of how installing such a system would spread the load SMPS's run on because the phase of current and voltage weren;t in sysch the way the company measures power didn;t give the correct readings as in the system show'd we were using less billable power than we actually used and installing suchb a transfromer would smooth this out.

To make the power factor nearer 1 you mean? Pass.


and thr biggest joke is someone claiming that 240V is the correct voltage to apply to a heater that says it's operational voltage is 230V.

Who said that then?

you're the one claiming that 240V is the 'standard' not me.

It is, in the UK (but not in your part of the UK apparently).

The UK was meant to reduce it;s voltage to 230V to come more in line with the EU 220V average.

Yes, but it hasn't, yet, has it.



I took the tester home last night and I too got a reading of 238-239V
went down to 237-8 when boiling my kettle.

So not 202V then?

No that is our lab when we overrate the MCBs designed current carrying capacity by 8 amps.

You aren't 'overrating' the MCB (that you were told was an RCBO),

so drawing 40amps isn't overrating a 32a MCB. ?

No, if anything it would be 'overloading' the MCB but it is *designed*
to work under such conditions and will trip as required / in time.

at what point would you say it's being overrated ?

I wouldn't. ;-)


Even the 51Hz went down to 50Hz

Not because of what you did alone it didn't.

At first glance I had no way of knowing that, soemtimes I;m just too observant I guess.

No, too blinkered to understand what is going on behind what you see.

I guess at what was going on as I've seen it time and time again in labs for years. Itls very difficult to get a cheap circuit to read lopw frequescies

Every 'cheap' plug in monitor I've got, seen or used seemed to do ok?

so it;s not too accurate when it can only sample 3 times a second it uses averages of algorithms for D-A converers there two main type's I think.

It could still be accurate if it samples once a second or once ever
hour (but only for that moment in time of course).



So, have you tried running one of the 2kW heaters on just the II
setting yet, just to see what happens?

Yes it runs at 1055W or there abouts depending on the input voltage remmeber that small point ?

I don't need to remember, because I understand. You don't understand.

I do you don't yuou've proved that.

Yes, of course you have. If you know all the answers, why so many
questions? Trolling?


So, my question was to be if you have run the rads continuously on the
NoII setting, do they still cycle?

No idea don't care.

Don't understand more like.

We did not buy 2KW heaters to run at 1.x KW.

Yet they are.

If we wanted 1.2KW we'd have brought cheaper 1KW or 1.5KW heaters rather than 2KW heaters.

You said you had bought some 1.5kW heaters, or were you lying again?


Today it's running at 1003W at 208V in my office ambient temp 21C,

Whilst the few degrees increase from what you find in an unheated lab
and say 21 Degrees may not be enough to impact the rad cycling thing,
it still could. So, 'a good test' would be to set one rad up out in
the (cold) lab on setting II and seeing if it cycles at all. Also,
measure the temperature as you did before and see if it's holding
steady and at what temp?

Not practical, too many other variables.

Very practical, no different to the test you first did.

Yesterday a workman has walled himslef in so we had to open the closed doors to let him in he had the full H&S gear on and a hoodie tracksuit because he was so cold those doors remaine dopen or ajar foir teh next hour while he brough rubble through the centre of the lab on sack barrows.
we also have about 100 or so studetns coming and going from 9am to 6pm, depending on the day we can have 100 students or less than a handful we didn't have ANY this morening until after 11am.

WHF has this got to do with testing the rad? It would actually be
'better' to see if the rad *does* cycle in time.


*IF* it's sitting just under the overtemp stat trip level (98 DegC or
so you said) from cold up to the required (main stat) temperature then
that *is* a more effective solution at heating the lab and allowing
you to have more heaters on at the same time, than trying to run them
at 2kW (more heaters drawing less power and at a higher temperature
more consistently).

I'd like to see the real world calcualtions for that before I complain that theree;'s not enough heating

And have you done that yet?

and they come in to see my 2KW rads set to 1.1KW because I say it's more efficinet they'd laugh all the way to the capincino machine.

And if you had any understanding of how it all works you would be able
to explain to them *exactly* why you were doing what you were.

But you don't do you, you are just a bored lab tech whiling away the
time between cleaning the test tubes. ;-(

Cheers, T i m

In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 30 November 2017 18:55:57 UTC, T i m wrote:




*IF* it's sitting just under the overtemp stat trip level (98 DegC or
so you said) from cold up to the required (main stat) temperature then
that *is* a more effective solution at heating the lab and allowing
you to have more heaters on at the same time, than trying to run them
at 2kW (more heaters drawing less power and at a higher temperature
more consistently).

They must have heard you.

In an email today after we complained that at midday it was still only 14C.
They have said I thought the labs times had changed to 3pm so you could heat up the lab.
It's 2:30pm now and the lab has just reached 15C, this is with 5 2KW heaters and 3 or 4 1,5KW heaters, so maybe they read your email as they have just given us 2 new 1.5KW heaters.

if I die from heat exaustion before 5pm I'm sueing you !

Aren't there laws about workplace minimum temperatures? Offices, Shops and
Railway Premises Act?

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

On Friday, 1 December 2017 14:37:32 UTC, Roger Hayter wrote:
whisky-dave wrote:

On Thursday, 30 November 2017 17:21:52 UTC, Roger Hayter wrote:
whisky-dave wrote:

On Thursday, 30 November 2017 12:29:34 UTC, Martin Brown wrote:
On 30/11/2017 11:55, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 30 November 2017 08:33:15 UTC, Martin Brown wrote:

- convection heaters are useless unless you live on the ceiling where
all the warm air accumulates.

How comes those in charge of the buiding services and building
managment didn't know this ?

They are probably as dumb as you are.

No where near as dumb as you for supporting paying nearly half a million
to a uni chanceler.

Where is this dodgy university?

http://www.qmul.ac.uk/


The thing is I've been complaining for years aboout the lab adn the
running . last year I complain because 3 female students compalined to me
and asked me why they can't have heaters in the lab as it was 14C (hardly
cold I've worked here when it's been 5C). I sent an email around asking if
athena swan . https://www.ecu.ac.uk/equality-charters/athena-swan/ can
help (as women suffer the cold more than men) the head of department sent
me an email claiming that I am being sexist and that he recieved a
complaint and that he has put on my record that I have been sexist. If I
want to know what he;s said I have to pay £10 to an outside company, and I
can NOT defend the claim that I am sexist. Uni's dont; like critasm
haven;t you noticed check out the Russel group that we are part of ..

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...-accused-of-im
porting-sports-direct-model-for-lecturers-pay

Do you have any evidence for your somewhat harmless but undoubtedly
sexist suggestion that women feel the cold more than men?

Yes, from teh TV program looking at the differnce between the sexes which
was on the very same week and was a repeat of teh program I saw a year
ago.

women feel the cold more because their biological systems are designed
(yes you can blame a male god for this) to keep the heat in the central
part of the body in order to protect the reproductive organs, this means
blood is divered from the limbs and other extremities. It's as much as 2C,
this is why women are more likely to pull the duvet off their male
partners. They might do this to female partners too, but that would just
end in a bitch fight ;-)


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-33760845

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/ar...naturally-cold
er-bodies-men.html

http://www.slate.com/articles/double...heart_cold_han
ds.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-st...e-arguments-wo
men-colder-men-thermostat-house-temperature-study-a7998241.html

http://www.sciencefocus.com/article/...feel-cold-more
-men


This has not
particularly been my experience. Perhaps at some point in your life
you have identified concern for the health of small children as a
particularly female characteristic? I'm only guessing.


Of the 4 people that complained to me about the cold conditions 3 of them
were female one was mature or rather she had a 8 year old kid and was
married and she complained with her hat & coat on when the lab was at 22C

More women than men complain of problems with excessively cold hands and
feet.


The rest is just anecdote.

Plenty of links and scientific evidence to prove you wrong.

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/2017...-more-than-men


--

Roger Hayter

On Friday, 1 December 2017 14:57:16 UTC, charles wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 30 November 2017 18:55:57 UTC, T i m wrote:




*IF* it's sitting just under the overtemp stat trip level (98 DegC or
so you said) from cold up to the required (main stat) temperature then
that *is* a more effective solution at heating the lab and allowing
you to have more heaters on at the same time, than trying to run them
at 2kW (more heaters drawing less power and at a higher temperature
more consistently).

They must have heard you.

In an email today after we complained that at midday it was still only 14C.
They have said I thought the labs times had changed to 3pm so you could heat up the lab.
It's 2:30pm now and the lab has just reached 15C, this is with 5 2KW heaters and 3 or 4 1,5KW heaters, so maybe they read your email as they have just given us 2 new 1.5KW heaters.

if I die from heat exaustion before 5pm I'm sueing you !

Aren't there laws about workplace minimum temperatures? Offices, Shops and
Railway Premises Act?

Yes exaclty I complained last year as it was 14C, I sent an emailto the department as 3 female stidents had complianed that it is to cold one of them compained when it was 22C. I've always said I can't complain until it goes below 16C.
So I sent the email to everyone in the department asking the athena swan commitee for help as they are meant to be supporting women in engineering.
I got an email back from the head of equality committee (previously he was head of H&S) telling me there is NO minium temerature and no maximium.
I replied with
https://www.rapidonline.com/brannan-...-215mm-87-4314

and a link to the factories act 1992 section 7
I then got an email sent to me (and not anyone else) saying that I was making a sexist comment and it will go done on my employment record as being sexist.
I asked if I could see exaclty what was written and I was told NO and that if I wanted to know I had to pay £10 to some outside company for access to my records, and there was no way for me to get it removed as ONE person (in about 200) was offended by my email.



--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

whisky-dave wrote:

On Friday, 1 December 2017 14:37:32 UTC, Roger Hayter wrote:
whisky-dave wrote:

On Thursday, 30 November 2017 17:21:52 UTC, Roger Hayter wrote:
whisky-dave wrote:

On Thursday, 30 November 2017 12:29:34 UTC, Martin Brown wrote:
On 30/11/2017 11:55, whisky-dave wrote: On Thursday, 30
November 2017 08:33:15 UTC, Martin Brown wrote: -
convection heaters are useless unless you live on the ceiling
where all the warm air accumulates. How comes those
in charge of the buiding services and building managment didn't
know this ? They are probably as dumb as you are.

No where near as dumb as you for supporting paying nearly half a
million to a uni chanceler.

Where is this dodgy university?

http://www.qmul.ac.uk/


The thing is I've been complaining for years aboout the lab adn
the running . last year I complain because 3 female students
compalined to me and asked me why they can't have heaters in the
lab as it was 14C (hardly cold I've worked here when it's been
5C). I sent an email around asking if athena swan .
https://www.ecu.ac.uk/equality-charters/athena-swan/ can help (as
women suffer the cold more than men) the head of department sent
me an email claiming that I am being sexist and that he recieved a
complaint and that he has put on my record that I have been
sexist. If I want to know what he;s said I have to pay £10 to an
outside company, and I can NOT defend the claim that I am sexist.
Uni's dont; like critasm haven;t you noticed check out the Russel
group that we are part of .

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ersities-accus
ed-of-im porting-sports-direct-model-for-lecturers-pay

Do you have any evidence for your somewhat harmless but undoubtedly
sexist suggestion that women feel the cold more than men?

Yes, from teh TV program looking at the differnce between the sexes
which was on the very same week and was a repeat of teh program I saw
a year ago.

women feel the cold more because their biological systems are designed
(yes you can blame a male god for this) to keep the heat in the central
part of the body in order to protect the reproductive organs, this means
blood is divered from the limbs and other extremities. It's as much as 2C,
this is why women are more likely to pull the duvet off their male
partners. They might do this to female partners too, but that would just
end in a bitch fight ;-)


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-33760845

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/ar...naturally-cold
er-bodies-men.html

http://www.slate.com/articles/double...heart_cold_han
ds.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-st...e-arguments-wo
men-colder-men-thermostat-house-temperature-study-a7998241.html

http://www.sciencefocus.com/article/...feel-cold-more
-men


This has not
particularly been my experience. Perhaps at some point in your life
you have identified concern for the health of small children as a
particularly female characteristic? I'm only guessing.


Of the 4 people that complained to me about the cold conditions 3 of them
were female one was mature or rather she had a 8 year old kid and was
married and she complained with her hat & coat on when the lab was at 22C

More women than men complain of problems with excessively cold hands and
feet.


The rest is just anecdote.

Plenty of links and scientific evidence to prove you wrong.


http://www.bbc.com/future/story/2017...-cold-more-tha
n-men


Sad to say the references you have supplied repeat the contention that
women feel the cold more than men but provide no verifiable scientific
evidence that the contention is true. Only one study is quoted to this
effect but no information about either the nature and size of the
sample or where it might be found.


--

Roger Hayter

T i m wrote:

On Fri, 1 Dec 2017 07:58:58 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

snip

I said nothing about stoping, what's wrong with reducing cycling. ?

Because it means the heater won't be on, will be cooling down, so
giving off less heat.

Just what we want in a cold lab,

That's good as that seems to be what you've got. Luckily *you* are
monitoring it all and know all the answers (not).

a heater that gives off less heat,

Yup, but that's what you want. You want an overpowered heater cycling
and giving off less heat than one that isn't.

For any given lower power heater there will only be a narrow band of
ambient temperatures where its average surface temperature is higher
than that of a cycling heater. Any warmer and it will cycle,
significantly cooler and it will suffer from insufficient power compared
to the cycling heater. So I don't agree with you that this is a useful
objective. I don't think cycling is actually too much of a problem.




--

Roger Hayter

On Sat, 2 Dec 2017 13:20:31 +0000, (Roger Hayter)
wrote:

T i m wrote:

On Fri, 1 Dec 2017 07:58:58 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

snip

I said nothing about stoping, what's wrong with reducing cycling. ?

Because it means the heater won't be on, will be cooling down, so
giving off less heat.

Just what we want in a cold lab,

That's good as that seems to be what you've got. Luckily *you* are
monitoring it all and know all the answers (not).

a heater that gives off less heat,

Yup, but that's what you want. You want an overpowered heater cycling
and giving off less heat than one that isn't.

For any given lower power heater there will only be a narrow band of
ambient temperatures where its average surface temperature is higher
than that of a cycling heater.

I can't remember the exact numbers (and CBA to search) but I think
dave measured ~75 - 100 Dec C or so.

Any warmer and it will cycle,

Yup.

significantly cooler and it will suffer from insufficient power compared
to the cycling heater.

Yup.

So I don't agree with you that this is a useful
objective.

But could be a useful experiment, given the lack of alternative
solutions?

I don't think cycling is actually too much of a problem.

No, it may well not be but it was a question that would be easy to
answer and may well yield *a* solution towards the problem?

So, if we know the 'from hot' cycle time when set at ~2kW and then to
see if it cycles (at all or the cycle time) we can then determine any
advantages of say switching down to the 1300W setting.

Remember, not only might this yield the best practical output for a
given input *but also* limit the maximum draw on the (poor) supply and
therefore allow for the addition of some extra heaters whilst keeping
within the capacity of the supply.

What you are effectively doing is increasing the surface area of these
cheaper rads to the point where they should be able to heat the space
better (overcoming their shortcomings to a degree). ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Saturday, 2 December 2017 10:41:25 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 1 Dec 2017 07:58:58 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

snip

I said nothing about stoping, what's wrong with reducing cycling. ?

Because it means the heater won't be on, will be cooling down, so
giving off less heat.

Just what we want in a cold lab,

That's good as that seems to be what you've got. Luckily *you* are
monitoring it all and know all the answers (not).

I know far more than you do yes.




a heater that gives off less heat,

Yup, but that's what you want.

It's not what I want, I didn't choose them.




you should apply for a job in admin,

I'd rather get a job in HR,

same thing here.

sack you (for incompetence) and employ a
monkey instead.

you applying for the job them ?


as I said they have just sent us two new 1.5KW heaters after we;ve said that teh 6 x 2KW

That are actually (potentially, when you tell us the complete duty
cycle) only 1350W heaters ...

But sold as 2KW heaters, if you wanted a 2KW heater is this what you'd buy



and 3-4 1.5KW

That could actually be 1.5kW heaters (once you do the tests).

They could be 100W heaters too, and I'm not planning on running any tests.


that have been on in the lab since 8:45an have just managed to raise the temperature from 13C to 15C

How does that compare against the thermal calculations for the space?

No idea. I don't do such calculations.



We have told them that we are in danger of triping our circuits.

Because 6 x 2kW (when on) *will* draw more current than 6 x 1.5kW and
so more likely to trip the supply.

So the 6 X 1.5KW draws more current than 6 X 2KW heaters.



Perhaps the 32A MCB was designed to run at 40 amps.

It is.

So what's the problem with us running it at 40amps.

None, till it trips ... or some weak link gives elsewhere.

So no problem then is there.


So there's no way of imporving efficieny by say having more fins or larger surface area.

Yes, but that's not an option is it.

Would be if we brough decent heaters rather than this crap.\

Quite, but you haven't, and you don't seem interested in cutting your
losses and seeing if there was a more effective way of using the
heaters you have been given (because you are too stupid to
understand).

Therere is NO more effective way, only yuor dream world wehere turning them down supplies more heat.




The two I have just installed are so cheap that rather than supply 4 wing nuts they suply two the other end of the U brackets has been bent over.

But that's how they were designed so you should be happy with that?

I'm not happy being given crap underspec stuff that might only work on paper.




The only way you can get close is
to give it less power which has the same effect of giving it more fins
/ larger surface area.

No it isn't, have you ever studied physics, or even heat sinks.

This should be funny ...!

What you do is pass colder air over it,

Oh, turn it into a fan heater! I thought they weren't allowed?

Fan heaters aren't allowed, i.e we are NOT allowed to buy or use fan heaters, fans are alowed (yuo know the sort used in summer to keep you cool), there differncies did you not know that.
Do I need to explain to you the differncies.



that;'s how PCs cool there processors down,

No? Really?

Yes really.


Hey, my server doesn't have any fans on the CPU,

I don't give a **** what your servers do or don't do.
Not that I mentioned servers so why did you ?




chipset
or case so are you saying that is going to overheat sometime (to be
fair it's only been on about 5 years now)?

A few years ago after christmas the IT person had to borrow my hair dryer to warm the servers up as they;d been switched off over xams and the temerature had dropped to 5C.



they could do as yuo suggetd turn down the electrical power to the processor so it doesnl;t get so hot but then the speed decreases.

And now you are (without realising it of course because you are so
stupid), saying *exactly* what I am saying. If you turn the
*overpowered* heater down from ~2kW to ~1.3 kW, you may find the rad
doesn't 'overheat' and therefore work better without 'throttling'.

I do NOT condiderthat working better perhaps you do.
Do your servers worked better if you lower their CPU speed.
I see you still a bit challenged at maths where's this 1.3KW coming from.




How would lowering the mains voltage save anything if your using oscilloscopes, signals gens PC's and other SMPSs ?

It wouldn't ... that's why I (and others) think it's snake oil.

Me too, but it was a managment decision and they are alkways right, even when specifying auto lights for toiulets that are left on 24/7 longer than any other lights that used to be switched on and off as wanted.

Just like managment at grenfell tower.




Just like installing auto on/off lights in toilets, and then peole complain about walking into darkened toilets after 6pm.

Then again, I suggest they haven't been installed properly. My mates
office has such all over the building and the lights actually light up
like a wave in front of you, including in the toilets.

How do they do that pour sensors are INSIDE the toilets not outside.

Maybe it;s lijke theose office blocks that are lit up at night, but they don't wasnl;t power either do they.



why isn't it, if 240V is the standard voltage ?

Because we live in a world that uses different standards?

snip voltage witterings

The idea was that we'd come into line with europe rather than stay at 240V






If we wanted 1.2KW we'd have brought cheaper 1KW or 1.5KW heaters rather than 2KW heaters.

You said you had bought some 1.5kW heaters, or were you lying again?

we were given them yes and another two today.

So you were lying then? Remember, to be a good liar you need to have a
good memory (and you obviously don't).

I said that at the beginning you've just forgotten.


And 'we would have bought' and 'we were given' ... You had no part to
play in the buying so it was just what you were given.

At ****ing last.

So, if you were
actually interested in making the best of what you were given, you
might try some (more) of the things suggested to you.



I do NOT know who chose the heaters all I know is it wasn't me or the lab manager or anyone in this building.

Pixies?

**** knows, it wasn't ANYONE in the building that is cold.

But we had a visit from in chage of buildings today, seems liimke their attitude is changing they are now thinking of moving us to another floor.




the test I did was in my closed office and I stared it during my lunch hour when my office is mostly closed to students.

What if people spilled something and needed to get a mop or bucket?
;-)

No idea I don't care we have cleaners for that.
same as we have electricians to do the electrical work we employ outside contractors, just like we have with those that have put the windows in now, meant to be done before the start of term.
It's not my job to install windows either on a PC ort in buildings.

What test? Where are the results? Did the ~2kW rad cycle on setting II
and if so what was the duty?

**** knows I don't care.
Why buy 2KW heaters that cycle on 1KW?
I wouldn't be that stupid.


It would actually be
'better' to see if the rad *does* cycle in time.

And if it did what then ?

Then you could determine the more (or most) effective way of using
them.

I don't give a ****. They are a product that should work as specified.
if they don't it's becuase they are faulty or cheap ****.

Would yuop buy a 2GHz computer that was fine for 20mins then cycled back to 700KHz, so you'd downrate it and select it to run at 1GHz.

I wouldnl't, I would not accept such a product obviously you would.




I'd like to see the real world calcualtions for that before I complain that theree;'s not enough heating

And have you done that yet?

yes since 1983 or there about.

And they are? What heating input does your lab need to get it to 20
DegC in one hour when it's 0 DegC outside?

I've no idea, maybe you can tell me.
Al, I know is that those that desinged it told those here in the late 50s that it would work and those in charge ignored the warnings save money.

The problem was known about before the building was even put into use.

when I first came here it was well known that the heating was insufficent.

But NOW all the heating has been ripped out so there was NO heating what so ever nothing not a single watt of heating to the building.

On Saturday, 2 December 2017 13:20:36 UTC, Roger Hayter wrote:
T i m wrote:

On Fri, 1 Dec 2017 07:58:58 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

snip

I said nothing about stoping, what's wrong with reducing cycling. ?

Because it means the heater won't be on, will be cooling down, so
giving off less heat.

Just what we want in a cold lab,

That's good as that seems to be what you've got. Luckily *you* are
monitoring it all and know all the answers (not).

a heater that gives off less heat,

Yup, but that's what you want. You want an overpowered heater cycling
and giving off less heat than one that isn't.

For any given lower power heater there will only be a narrow band of
ambient temperatures where its average surface temperature is higher
than that of a cycling heater. Any warmer and it will cycle,
significantly cooler and it will suffer from insufficient power compared
to the cycling heater. So I don't agree with you that this is a useful
objective. I don't think cycling is actually too much of a problem.


What would you expect from a 2KW heater ?


remmeber I was told it was faulty because it switched to 700W and not 0W
after about 20mins

On Mon, 4 Dec 2017 06:28:34 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

snip

I know far more than you do yes.

Oh, you are funny dave and it's good that you can still laugh at
yourself after all this. ;-)

snip dave's drooling's

Why buy 2KW heaters that cycle on 1KW?

No idea why they bought them (other than they were cheap) but because
they might give off more heat that way?

snip the rest as it's pointless trying to help

The point now is that you could be part of the solution, rather than
being part of the problem but you have admitted you don't care so ...

Cheers, T i m

On Monday, 4 December 2017 16:09:51 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 4 Dec 2017 06:28:34 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

snip

I know far more than you do yes.

Oh, you are funny dave and it's good that you can still laugh at
yourself after all this. ;-)


I'm laughing at the ****ing idiot that told me the heaters are faulty and seems to think they should be sent back because of what sales have said.



Why buy 2KW heaters that cycle on 1KW?

No idea why they bought them (other than they were cheap) but because
they might give off more heat that way?

More heat than what ?


snip the rest as it's pointless trying to help

you're about as much use as a wodney simulator.


The point now is that you could be part of the solution, rather than
being part of the problem but you have admitted you don't care so ...

I do care that's why I want those that are being paid to do the job to actualy do the job. I have half installed windows now too, I DO NOT install windows and I do NOT install cladding which we are also having done on this 1950s building.
I've asked if we managed to get any cheap cladding from somewhere, no answer so far.

Of course if you really had a clue you could tell me how to work out just how many heaters I would need, but as the number is above one I doubt you'd be able to work it out.

On Mon, 4 Dec 2017 08:23:32 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Monday, 4 December 2017 16:09:51 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 4 Dec 2017 06:28:34 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

snip

I know far more than you do yes.

Oh, you are funny dave and it's good that you can still laugh at
yourself after all this. ;-)


I'm laughing at the ****ing idiot that told me the heaters are faulty

Who is that then?

and seems to think they should be sent back because of what sales have said.

They said that did they? You have that in writing I hope?


Why buy 2KW heaters that cycle on 1KW?

No idea why they bought them (other than they were cheap) but because
they might give off more heat that way?

More heat than what ?

Work it out yourself, I'm not your wet nurse.


snip the rest as it's pointless trying to help

you're about as much use as a wodney simulator.

To you, you are probably right. ;-(


The point now is that you could be part of the solution, rather than
being part of the problem but you have admitted you don't care so ...

I do care that's why I want those that are being paid to do the job to actualy do the job.

But they aren't going to are they ... so in the meantime the students
go cold, or colder than they might if you had the brains to follow
some simple advice (or at least do the tests towards such).

snip witterings

Of course if you really had a clue you could tell me how to work out just how many heaters I would need, but as the number is above one I doubt you'd be able to work it out.

Ah, so at least you are now admitting you don't know how to do it
yourself (so that's some progress at least).

What *you* have to do (as we aren't there), is measure all the walls,
windows, floors and ceilings and find out (or take a guess) as to what
they are made of (solid walls, brick outer with block inner, steel
frame with concrete panels etc) and then use the guides for each area
to calculate the overall loss (using the 'u' value for each material x
the area of each x the temperature difference between both sides of
each (so between the lab and the room above for the ceiling and the
lab and the outside on a worst case day)).

https://www.diydata.com/information/...s/u_values.php

This sort of thing:

https://www.diydata.com/planning/ch_...1_imperial.php

Or this might help automate it a bit:

http://www.heatline.co.uk/heat-loss-calculator/

Or I'm sure if you gave us the dimensions and some idea of what each
surface is made of someone would be able to help.

Cheers, T i m

On Monday, 4 December 2017 17:22:11 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 4 Dec 2017 08:23:32 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Monday, 4 December 2017 16:09:51 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 4 Dec 2017 06:28:34 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

snip

I know far more than you do yes.

Oh, you are funny dave and it's good that you can still laugh at
yourself after all this. ;-)


I'm laughing at the ****ing idiot that told me the heaters are faulty

Who is that then?

The same idiot that said they were helping me saying the rad. is faulty and emailed sales, even when the 5 rads all behaved the same it then becaome an aledged batch problem.
But it;s no suprse you don't know who this idiot is.




and seems to think they should be sent back because of what sales have said.

They said that did they? You have that in writing I hope?

No I only have what the idiot told me they said, I never contacted sales so don't know what sales wanted me to do.


The point now is that you could be part of the solution, rather than
being part of the problem but you have admitted you don't care so ...

I do care that's why I want those that are being paid to do the job to actualy do the job.

But they aren't going to are they ...

No they are NOT and they are not goign to pass the job onto me so they cna get promoted or get away without doing their job.


so in the meantime the students
go cold, or colder than they might if you had the brains to follow
some simple advice (or at least do the tests towards such).

The students are told how to complian if they wish, if I complain I get an officail complaint raised against me. The studetns have the option to complain in the National student survey,

http://my.qmul.ac.uk/your-voice/feed...urvey-results/

there's no such thing as a national technicains survey.



Of course if you really had a clue you could tell me how to work out just how many heaters I would need, but as the number is above one I doubt you'd be able to work it out.

Ah, so at least you are now admitting you don't know how to do it
yourself (so that's some progress at least).

I haven't a clue it's not my job, I'm not a heating engneer and none of our lecturers are. we as technicians DO NOT install central heating or build the buildings. we aren;t painters and decorators either.



What *you* have to do (as we aren't there), is measure all the walls,
windows, floors and ceilings and find out (or take a guess) as to what
they are made of (solid walls, brick outer with block inner, steel
frame with concrete panels etc) and then use the guides for each area
to calculate the overall loss (using the 'u' value for each material x
the area of each x the temperature difference between both sides of
each (so between the lab and the room above for the ceiling and the
lab and the outside on a worst case day)).

why the **** would I do that, it;s nothing to do with me.
You really are dumb aren't you.



https://www.diydata.com/information/...s/u_values.php

This sort of thing:

https://www.diydata.com/planning/ch_...1_imperial.php

Or this might help automate it a bit:

http://www.heatline.co.uk/heat-loss-calculator/

you are a clueless ignorant ****er aren't you, did yuo read the last point after entering whether it;s a living room or bedroom.

7 Contact your Gas Safe registered installer to discuss your exact heating requirements.

Gas was removed from the lab in 1996 on the last refurb.



Or I'm sure if you gave us the dimensions and some idea of what each
surface is made of someone would be able to help.


I doubt that, but lets just imagine a very simple room, about the size of my office.

3.5M X 5.5m and 3 metres in hieght.

Cheers, T i m

On Tue, 5 Dec 2017 02:57:18 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

snip more bizarre bs

Or I'm sure if you gave us the dimensions and some idea of what each
surface is made of someone would be able to help.


I doubt that, but lets just imagine a very simple room, about the size of my office.

3.5M X 5.5m and 3 metres in hieght.

Ok, that's a start, but ...

1) the size of the lab might be more relevant if we are wasting our
time on you.

2) A clue as to the size of any windows and the construction of all
the (especially external) surfaces.

You have been given lists of the sorts of materials and their u values
so you could help yourself a bit.

Cheers, T i m

On 04/12/2017 13:14, whisky-dave wrote:
On Friday, 1 December 2017 17:29:50 UTC, Martin Brown wrote:
On 01/12/2017 15:58, whisky-dave wrote:

Just what we want in a cold lab, a heater that gives off less heat,
handy that perhaps you should apply for a job in admin, as I said
they have just sent us two new 1.5KW heaters after we;ve said that
teh 6 x 2KW and 3-4 1.5KW that have been on in the lab since 8:45an
have just managed to raise the temperature from 13C to 15C so how
much will two 1.5KW heaters do as far as raising the temprature ? We

You do the sums.

How show me how do do these 'sums'
I bet you can't do them, on fact suggesting such a thing proves you can't do them.

Someone already has but you chose to ignore them.

Anyway the simplest solution to your dilemma is switch the damn things
on on a Monday morning and leave them on until Friday evening. That way
the lab will remain warm even with these useless convection heaters and
the huge running costs will come off some other budget.

You could always do some engineering instead of whining on Usenet.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On Tue, 5 Dec 2017 11:50:33 +0000, Martin Brown
wrote:

On 04/12/2017 13:14, whisky-dave wrote:
On Friday, 1 December 2017 17:29:50 UTC, Martin Brown wrote:
On 01/12/2017 15:58, whisky-dave wrote:

Just what we want in a cold lab, a heater that gives off less heat,
handy that perhaps you should apply for a job in admin, as I said
they have just sent us two new 1.5KW heaters after we;ve said that
teh 6 x 2KW and 3-4 1.5KW that have been on in the lab since 8:45an
have just managed to raise the temperature from 13C to 15C so how
much will two 1.5KW heaters do as far as raising the temprature ? We

You do the sums.

How show me how do do these 'sums'
I bet you can't do them, on fact suggesting such a thing proves you can't do them.

Someone already has but you chose to ignore them.

I don't think he ignored them outright but just doesn't have a clue
what it's all about so doesn't know where to start and how to apply
what he's been given. ;-(

He is a dichotomy as on one hand he asks here for advice and help and
then blatantly throws it back. I wonder why he isn't more appreciated
where he works. ;-)

Anyway the simplest solution to your dilemma is switch the damn things
on on a Monday morning and leave them on until Friday evening.

I believe the power is turned off every night so not that much use.

That way
the lab will remain warm even with these useless convection heaters

I'm not sure thy are useless, just not the best solution. However, I
understand they are the only permitted solution so are all there is to
work with.

Given they are overpowered at the 2kW setting and dave not willing to
test them on the 1.3kW setting (to see if they maintain a higher /
continuous average temperature and at a reduced peak current / rad),
I'm not sure he's actually getting the best out of what he has.

the huge running costs will come off some other budget.

I'm not sure the energy consumption *difference* between running 5 x
2kW fan heaters would be that much compared to 5 x 2kW oil filled rads
(assuming they were all running at 2kW etc) but I agree the warm up
would feel quicker with the fan heaters (if only because of heat
mixing and lower stratification).

You could always do some engineering instead of whining on Usenet.

Once you have cleaned all the test tubes, what else is there to do.
;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Tuesday, 5 December 2017 11:46:43 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Tue, 5 Dec 2017 02:57:18 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

snip more bizarre bs

Or I'm sure if you gave us the dimensions and some idea of what each
surface is made of someone would be able to help.


I doubt that, but lets just imagine a very simple room, about the size of my office.

3.5M X 5.5m and 3 metres in hieght.

Ok, that's a start, but ...

1) the size of the lab might be more relevant if we are wasting our
time on you.

I'm keeping it simple for you as there are 3 labs, and my office was teh only place I tested the heaters.

if yuo can;t work it out for a single room I doubt yuo;d manage it for 3 labs two of which are sperated by swing doors where studetns come and gone on a minute by minute basis.
How will you factor in the 40 or so studetns I;m expecting at 3pm when the open the doors to a colder corridor, how about the others leaving at around 3pm, what about those that wopn;t turn up until 3:30. Or thos doign the other course that have to walk through the lab to get into the PC lab at 4:00pm.




2) A clue as to the size of any windows and the construction of all
the (especially external) surfaces.

Large triple glazed windows that haven't been completely installed.
Or calculate it as from 3 weeks ago when we had NO windows.




You have been given lists of the sorts of materials and their u values
so you could help yourself a bit.

Get it through you're thick skull I am not gas registared so can't do those things.

You really haven't a clue have you.

On Tuesday, 5 December 2017 11:50:36 UTC, Martin Brown wrote:
On 04/12/2017 13:14, whisky-dave wrote:
On Friday, 1 December 2017 17:29:50 UTC, Martin Brown wrote:
On 01/12/2017 15:58, whisky-dave wrote:

Just what we want in a cold lab, a heater that gives off less heat,
handy that perhaps you should apply for a job in admin, as I said
they have just sent us two new 1.5KW heaters after we;ve said that
teh 6 x 2KW and 3-4 1.5KW that have been on in the lab since 8:45an
have just managed to raise the temperature from 13C to 15C so how
much will two 1.5KW heaters do as far as raising the temprature ? We

You do the sums.

How show me how do do these 'sums'
I bet you can't do them, on fact suggesting such a thing proves you can't do them.

Someone already has but you chose to ignore them.

No one has.


Anyway the simplest solution to your dilemma is switch the damn things
on on a Monday morning and leave them on until Friday evening.

FFS.

I will NOT break those H&S regs, that the college have set.

If someone wants them on then they'll have to instruct me to leave them on in writing.




That way
the lab will remain warm even with these useless convection heaters and
the huge running costs will come off some other budget.

How do you work that one out, will the heaters leaving the lab and go eleswhere top get their electricity, then return in the morning.?

How are the running costs coming off of someone elses budget ?



You could always do some engineering instead of whining on Usenet.

I'm NOT an engineer we pay engineers to be engineers.

You're obviously not an engineer yuorself so what are you ?

On Tuesday, 5 December 2017 12:21:38 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Tue, 5 Dec 2017 11:50:33 +0000, Martin Brown
wrote:

On 04/12/2017 13:14, whisky-dave wrote:
On Friday, 1 December 2017 17:29:50 UTC, Martin Brown wrote:
On 01/12/2017 15:58, whisky-dave wrote:

Just what we want in a cold lab, a heater that gives off less heat,
handy that perhaps you should apply for a job in admin, as I said
they have just sent us two new 1.5KW heaters after we;ve said that
teh 6 x 2KW and 3-4 1.5KW that have been on in the lab since 8:45an
have just managed to raise the temperature from 13C to 15C so how
much will two 1.5KW heaters do as far as raising the temprature ? We

You do the sums.

How show me how do do these 'sums'
I bet you can't do them, on fact suggesting such a thing proves you can't do them.

Someone already has but you chose to ignore them.

I don't think he ignored them outright but just doesn't have a clue
what it's all about so doesn't know where to start and how to apply
what he's been given. ;-(

you dumb ****er.


He is a dichotomy as on one hand he asks here for advice and help and
then blatantly throws it back. I wonder why he isn't more appreciated
where he works. ;-)

WRONG again .

But then you think a 2KW heater should run at 1300W or is it faulty ?


Anyway the simplest solution to your dilemma is switch the damn things
on on a Monday morning and leave them on until Friday evening.

I believe the power is turned off every night so not that much use.

Well they don't want us to leave those rads on overnight, well that;s what they said orginally now it is well you can leave some on. So some have been left on.



That way
the lab will remain warm even with these useless convection heaters

I'm not sure thy are useless, just not the best solution. However, I
understand they are the only permitted solution so are all there is to
work with.

That is true unless someone comes up with something else of course.

And if you read my origanls question it had NOTHING to do with heating the lab.


Given they are overpowered at the 2kW setting and dave not willing to
test them on the 1.3kW setting

there's NO 1.3KW setting.


(to see if they maintain a higher /
continuous average temperature and at a reduced peak current / rad),
I'm not sure he's actually getting the best out of what he has.

I don't give a ****.

Estates ****ed up and told us that all this work would be done by the end or august or begining of september.
Last month we werent even allowed to open the lab until 3pm because of thenoise level's in the lab exceed 80dB as there were demoloshing a concrete floor above us. We had to run the labs from 3pm to 7pm, resheduling others.


the huge running costs will come off some other budget.

I'm not sure the energy consumption *difference* between running 5 x
2kW fan heaters would be that much compared to 5 x 2kW oil filled rads
(assuming they were all running at 2kW etc)

So what would the cost be......


but I agree the warm up
would feel quicker with the fan heaters (if only because of heat
mixing and lower stratification).

Pity they were banned from being used years ago and that we were supplied with the oil filled radiators, we werent; asked what we wanted or how many.
The lab manger gave an unlimantium and said if we can;t getb the lab up to 16C as the factory act 1992 section 7 states, then we will close the lab.
The studetns will then really start complaining and then managment will have to explain who ****ed up with the building plans.

On Tue, 5 Dec 2017 05:24:23 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

snip daves rantings

I believe the power is turned off every night so not that much use.

Well they don't want us to leave those rads on overnight, well that;s what they said orginally now it is well you can leave some on. So some have been left on.

Funny how these things keep changing.

snip

And if you read my origanls question it had NOTHING to do with heating the lab.

Yeah and "As some might have read we've been supplied with a number of
oil filled radiators" is for your home right?


Given they are overpowered at the 2kW setting and dave not willing to
test them on the 1.3kW setting

there's NO 1.3KW setting.

Just because you don't understand the equipment in front of you, or
the real world, you keep denying the facts.

It's a 2kW rad made up of a 700W and a 1300W setting. Now grow up.

snip
the huge running costs will come off some other budget.

I'm not sure the energy consumption *difference* between running 5 x
2kW fan heaters would be that much compared to 5 x 2kW oil filled rads
(assuming they were all running at 2kW etc)

So what would the cost be......

You work it out, I'm not you wet nurse or teacher.

snip

Cheers, T i m

On Tue, 5 Dec 2017 04:58:35 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Tuesday, 5 December 2017 11:46:43 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Tue, 5 Dec 2017 02:57:18 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

snip more bizarre bs

Or I'm sure if you gave us the dimensions and some idea of what each
surface is made of someone would be able to help.


I doubt that, but lets just imagine a very simple room, about the size of my office.

3.5M X 5.5m and 3 metres in hieght.

Ok, that's a start, but ...

1) the size of the lab might be more relevant if we are wasting our
time on you.

I'm keeping it simple for you

How kind. ;-)

as there are 3 labs,

Are they one airspace or separated. If the latter we only need the
information from one (as a starter).

and my office was teh only place I tested the heaters.

That's of no use re calculating the heat loss from the labs. IDGAF how
cold you are.

snip bs



2) A clue as to the size of any windows and the construction of all
the (especially external) surfaces.

Large triple glazed windows

'Large' as in your mouth or ego or something different? ;-)

that haven't been completely installed.

Ah, so, are we talking wind tunnel / tent then?

Or calculate it as from 3 weeks ago when we had NO windows.

I'm pretty sure your power supply wouldn't be up to that.


You have been given lists of the sorts of materials and their u values
so you could help yourself a bit.

Get it through you're thick skull I am not gas registared so can't do those things.

Where TF have I said or suggested you have to deal with the *heating*
(especially gas). All you are supposed to be doing so far is working
out the heat loss.

Suggestion, ask a student (or another adult) to roughly measure the
dimensions of one lab, the size of each window (or one and multiply it
if they are all pretty similar) and guess what the walls and floor /
ceiling are made from (and if they are cavity walls etc). Then you try
and type that back here, ok? *You* don't have to trouble your little
brain by trying to make sense of any of that. Do you think you can
manage that? ;-)

You really haven't a clue have you.

No, I really hadn't realised just how stupid / awkward / literal /
ignorant people can be, especially when you are trying to help /
educate them!

Cheers, T i m

On Tuesday, 5 December 2017 14:49:42 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Tue, 5 Dec 2017 05:24:23 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:


snipped you being an arsehole



I believe the power is turned off every night so not that much use.

Well they don't want us to leave those rads on overnight, well that;s what they said orginally now it is well you can leave some on. So some have been left on.

Funny how these things keep changing.

Yes as soon as it's expected, that managment really need to get their act together then things change but only if we complain, otherwise they quitely shift the blame saying no one told us.

When we leave at night, (yes 3 of us are employed in the lab now) it is up to the lab manager, if he says leave them on and in what state then I do, otherwise I turn them off as I have to with all the equipemnt except PCs and monitors.

Before ~1996 I didn't have to go around 2 labs turning things off, I just hit mushroom button contactor and all power to the lab benches goes off, I then set the alarm and I left.
Now I have to go around each bench turning things off from the socket or equipment switch and then I leave.


snip

And if you read my origanls question it had NOTHING to do with heating the lab.

Yeah and "As some might have read we've been supplied with a number of
oil filled radiators" is for your home right?

WRONG.
But it won't be the first time you;re got everything wrong will it.



Given they are overpowered at the 2kW setting and dave not willing to
test them on the 1.3kW setting

there's NO 1.3KW setting.

Just because you don't understand the equipment in front of you, or
the real world, you keep denying the facts.

three's no 1300W setting.


It's a 2kW rad made up of a 700W and a 1300W setting. Now grow up.

No it is NOT I explained this before are yuo really that think.
There is NO 700W setting and NO 1300W setting.

When used in my office it measured about 700W (at 202V) and (1055W at 202V)
So explain where you get your 1300W from.

On Tuesday, 5 December 2017 15:09:43 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Tue, 5 Dec 2017 04:58:35 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave


3.5M X 5.5m and 3 metres in hieght.

Ok, that's a start, but ...

1) the size of the lab might be more relevant if we are wasting our
time on you.

I'm keeping it simple for you

How kind. ;-)

Yes I shouldn't waste my time .

So coem on wheres the calculation.



as there are 3 labs,

Are they one airspace or separated. If the latter we only need the
information from one (as a starter).

They are seprated just like hospitals that were build at the time, seprated by a double swing door which is partly a fire door as it has the foam smoke inhibitor. Sometimes it's left closed other times it's left open.
Today between about 3 and 6pm around 25 students walk through this door multiple times as they come and get things from my office they also have to open my office door. hey also have to enter and leave the lab via another similar set of swing doors.





and my office was teh only place I tested the heaters.

That's of no use re calculating the heat loss from the labs. IDGAF how
cold you are.

Then how do you calculate the heat loss of a lab ?
How do you account for the number of students movements.




2) A clue as to the size of any windows and the construction of all
the (especially external) surfaces.

Large triple glazed windows



that haven't been completely installed.

Ah, so, are we talking wind tunnel / tent then?

No.

if yuo lok back in this thread you'll see I posted a video of the lab.


Or calculate it as from 3 weeks ago when we had NO windows.

I'm pretty sure your power supply wouldn't be up to that.

What power supply ?
we had boarding up at the windows if you watch the video someone that thinks they are observant might have noticed.

This video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52t4ABF7BJs


starts in my office and at 12 seconds it goes through my office door into the lab this lab is called the hardware lab room 253.
The columns in the lab are 33cm in width.

This vid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCBXuXBAl4g

shows the left hand side called the PC lab.


You have been given lists of the sorts of materials and their u values
so you could help yourself a bit.

Get it through you're thick skull I am not gas registared so can't do those things.

Where TF have I said or suggested you have to deal with the *heating*
(especially gas).

from the link posted, forgotten already it's less than a few hours ago.





All you are supposed to be doing so far is working
out the heat loss.

I can't do that too many variables.




Suggestion, ask a student (or another adult) to roughly measure the
dimensions of one lab, the size of each window (or one and multiply it
if they are all pretty similar) and guess what the walls and floor /
ceiling are made from (and if they are cavity walls etc). Then you try
and type that back here, ok? *You* don't have to trouble your little
brain by trying to make sense of any of that. Do you think you can
manage that? ;-)

You have the vids work it out for yuorself.
Remmeber that we have up to 200 students coming in and out of the swing doors every day, at night the cleaners come in.

Since those vids some windows have been installed two have been 'bricked up'
We are having a new fire exit build as H&S condemmmed the temproey one as unfit for purpose as it led out onto the scafolding where the builders had left tools and construction stuff on it.

We don't know who comes and goes when we are not here in fact there;s an email going about today that fridge in the PCB room had 'magically' been unplugged over the weekend no of us did it.





You really haven't a clue have you.

No, I really hadn't realised just how stupid / awkward / literal /
ignorant people can be, especially when you are trying to help /
educate them!

such as sending working heaters back as faulty you mean that sort of help ?

On Tue, 5 Dec 2017 07:35:02 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

snip

And if you read my origanls question it had NOTHING to do with heating the lab.

Yeah and "As some might have read we've been supplied with a number of
oil filled radiators" is for your home right?

WRONG.
But it won't be the first time you;re got everything wrong will it.

Aww, bless you dave. You really don't do irony / sarcasm do you. ;-(

snip bs

It's a 2kW rad made up of a 700W and a 1300W setting. Now grow up.

No it is NOT I explained this before are yuo really that think.
There is NO 700W setting and NO 1300W setting.

Aww bless. How about getting a grownup to show you the I, II and III
power positions and have them explain how they relate to the
approximate power levels of these rads when used on a working UK mains
supply.

When used in my office it measured about 700W (at 202V) and (1055W at 202V)

Completely and utterly irrelevant to the power positions on the rad
and you are only being childish, trolling or stupid for not accepting
the general usage / description.

So explain where you get your 1300W from.

See above (and grow up).

This is what you sound like ...

Student: dave, could I have one of the 60W soldering irons please?

You: We don't have any 60W irons, we only have 55W irons ...

Student: Oh, I thought it said 60W on the element.

You: Well it's wrong, you are wrong, I am right.


No one is ever going to bend to your BS / variable use of measured
power as a description for the particular setting on those rads.

It is a 700, 1300 or 2000W heater at 240V.

Cheers, T i m

On Tuesday, 5 December 2017 16:30:01 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Tue, 5 Dec 2017 07:35:02 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:


snip bs


It's a 2kW rad made up of a 700W and a 1300W setting. Now grow up.

No it is NOT I explained this before are yuo really that think.
There is NO 700W setting and NO 1300W setting.

Aww bless.

It has 3 heat settings. All of which depend on the voltage applied.






How about getting a grownup to show you the I, II and III
power positions and have them explain how they relate to the
approximate power levels of these rads when used on a working UK mains
supply.

What UK mains suply do you mean 240V or the 220V typically here or teh 210-215V in my office of the 202V in the lab if we installed all the heaters managment were sending us to install. ?





No one is ever going to bend to your BS / variable use of measured
power as a description for the particular setting on those rads.

It is a 700, 1300 or 2000W heater at 240V.

Cheers, T i m

So tell me the power of the heater needed for my office aimple isn't it.

What would you suggest if someone said to you during the winter that the office can reach 5C what sort of heater would you supply if you were managment ?

Don't forget that convection and fan heaters have been banned.

In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Tuesday, 5 December 2017 16:30:01 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Tue, 5 Dec 2017 07:35:02 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:


snip bs


It's a 2kW rad made up of a 700W and a 1300W setting. Now grow up.

No it is NOT I explained this before are yuo really that think. There
is NO 700W setting and NO 1300W setting.

Aww bless.

It has 3 heat settings. All of which depend on the voltage applied.






How about getting a grownup to show you the I, II and III
power positions and have them explain how they relate to the
approximate power levels of these rads when used on a working UK mains
supply.

What UK mains suply do you mean 240V or the 220V typically here or teh
210-215V in my office of the 202V in the lab if we installed all the
heaters managment were sending us to install. ?

Put the lab back on a proper 240 v supply.




No one is ever going to bend to your BS / variable use of measured
power as a description for the particular setting on those rads.

It is a 700, 1300 or 2000W heater at 240V.

Cheers, T i m

So tell me the power of the heater needed for my office aimple isn't it.

What would you suggest if someone said to you during the winter that the
office can reach 5C what sort of heater would you supply if you were
managment ?

Don't forget that convection and fan heaters have been banned.


Oil filled radiators tend to provide heat my convection.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

On Tue, 5 Dec 2017 08:05:53 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

snip

as there are 3 labs,

Are they one airspace or separated. If the latter we only need the
information from one (as a starter).

They are seprated just like hospitals that were build at the time, seprated by a double swing door which is partly a fire door as it has the foam smoke inhibitor.

Ok, we are getting *somewhere* then ...

Sometimes it's left closed other times it's left open.

The outcome of that would be dependant if all 3 labs were heated
equally or not.

Today between about 3 and 6pm around 25 students walk through this door multiple times as they come and get things from my office

Brooms, dustpans and brushes etc? ;-)

they also have to open my office door. hey also have to enter and leave the lab via another similar set of swing doors.

Right ... well, whilst you may be able to cover all of those with the
calculations, it would be easier to just assume one lab and what
heating it would require if kept sealed and go from there. If the
heaters you have are calculated to not to be able to deal with the
static system, they are unlikely to deal with the dynamic one (unless
all the doors open to warmer places).

and my office was teh only place I tested the heaters.

That's of no use re calculating the heat loss from the labs. IDGAF how
cold you are.

Then how do you calculate the heat loss of a lab ?

You do the sums for that lab as a single entity and go from there.
ITRW, if most of the adjoining spaces are heated equally then it won't
make a lot of difference.

How do you account for the number of students movements.

They would have to deal with their own doctors for that mate. ;-(

2) A clue as to the size of any windows and the construction of all
the (especially external) surfaces.

Large triple glazed windows

that haven't been completely installed.

Ah, so, are we talking wind tunnel / tent then?

No.

No!?! rolls eyes

if yuo lok back in this thread you'll see I posted a video of the lab.

Whilst I'm sure that would be interesting, it won't help with the
measurements.


Or calculate it as from 3 weeks ago when we had NO windows.

I'm pretty sure your power supply wouldn't be up to that.

What power supply ?

The crap one to the lab.

snips links un viewed as it's not relevant to the calculations for
now

snip

Where TF have I said or suggested you have to deal with the *heating*
(especially gas).

from the link posted, forgotten already it's less than a few hours ago.

Ah, yes, of course, I'd expect you to go out and learn how to be a
plumber and heating engineer and get your Gas Safe cert, just to
calculate the heating required for your lab (that's 'not' by the way).
rolls eyes


All you are supposed to be doing so far is working
out the heat loss.

I can't do that too many variables.

See above. Start with the basic static situation for one lab and if
the energy required will overload your supply then you know it's a non
starter.



Suggestion, ask a student (or another adult) to roughly measure the
dimensions of one lab, the size of each window (or one and multiply it
if they are all pretty similar) and guess what the walls and floor /
ceiling are made from (and if they are cavity walls etc). Then you try
and type that back here, ok? *You* don't have to trouble your little
brain by trying to make sense of any of that. Do you think you can
manage that? ;-)

You have the vids work it out for yuorself.

Don't be a tw*t. How can I measure (or even be bothered to try) to
work out the sized from there. If you can't do it just say and we can
move on.

Remmeber that we have up to 200 students coming in and out of the swing doors every day, at night the cleaners come in.

See above.

snip more bs

You really haven't a clue have you.

No, I really hadn't realised just how stupid / awkward / literal /
ignorant people can be, especially when you are trying to help /
educate them!

such as sending working heaters back as faulty you mean that sort of help ?

Who on earth ever suggested that then dave? I think you are just lying
again (as I have black and white proof I didn't).

See, no matter how you try to twist and squirm and lie and BS, you
will not, not ever be able to get off the hook you keep throwing
yourself on.

Now, I really CGAF what you do, I'm just considering the students and
how we might be able to help them. I am not interested in your stupid
word games and pathetic attempts to evade the questions (so I suggest
you stop and just get on with trying to be a solution, not continuing
to be a problem).

Cheers, T i m

On Tuesday, 5 December 2017 16:30:01 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Tue, 5 Dec 2017 07:35:02 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:


It is a 700, 1300 or 2000W heater at 240V.

So how many would I need for either my office of the labs.
How many of teh above heaters would I need ?

In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Tuesday, 5 December 2017 16:30:01 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Tue, 5 Dec 2017 07:35:02 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:


It is a 700, 1300 or 2000W heater at 240V.

So how many would I need for either my office of the labs.
How many of the above heaters would I need ?

You need to determine the volume of the room, the starting temperature and
the final required temperature and how long you have to heat up the room.
From that data, YOU can determine the kilowatts required.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

On Tue, 5 Dec 2017 08:44:51 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

snip
It's a 2kW rad made up of a 700W and a 1300W setting. Now grow up.

No it is NOT I explained this before are yuo really that think.
There is NO 700W setting and NO 1300W setting.

Aww bless.

It has 3 heat settings. All of which depend on the voltage applied.

No, really? So why don't they print a graph on the side, showing the
power consumption over a range of voltages?

How about getting a grownup to show you the I, II and III
power positions and have them explain how they relate to the
approximate power levels of these rads when used on a working UK mains
supply.

What UK mains suply do you mean 240V or the 220V typically here or teh 210-215V in my office of the 202V in the lab if we installed all the heaters managment were sending us to install. ?

Yes, *the* UK mains supply, not your crap non-standard (for the UK
one). How many times do people have to tell you before you can accept
/ understand something?

No one is ever going to bend to your BS / variable use of measured
power as a description for the particular setting on those rads.

It is a 700, 1300 or 2000W heater at 240V.


So tell me the power of the heater needed for my office aimple isn't it.

Yoda, is that you? And why do you keep on with this 'simple isn't it'
when it either is (and you don't understand) or isn't (and you don't
understand)?

What is impossible for you to comprehend is basic bread_and_butter to
many with many here being able to come to a better and more accurate
conclusion on the back of a fag packet than you could with full use of
a Cray.

What would you suggest if someone said to you during the winter that the office can reach 5C what sort of heater would you supply if you were managment ?

'Can reach 5C'? You do have a strange way with terms. Do you mean 'it
can go as low as 5C' or 'It can be 5C' . You 'reach for the sky' or
'the temperature reached 40C today'.

Anyway, as it stands it was a stupid / pointless question. From
knowledge of the limitation of your scenario, an oil filled radiator
is about the only option. Now, you have the choice of a good / large
panel rad that can actually dissipate whatever input level you set it
to without cycling or, maybe two cheaper heaters set at an input level
they can actually dissipate continuously.

What you have there is a car that has too big an engine and you think
leaving it there spinning it's wheels is the most effective way to get
from A to B.

Don't forget that convection and fan heaters have been banned.

Mate, I 'don't forget' any of it. I don't because I fully understand
the situation and have done from the exact instance you mentioned any
of it. I'm like that ... and how I can catch you out every time you
try to squirm out of stuff.

Cheers, T i m

p.s. We currently have the choice of *two* 450W mini oil filled rads,
or *one* 600W slimline panel.

The two mini rads have been on full since about 9 this morning and
it's only just reached 20 DegC in here now. The slimline panel would
have had it up to 20 DegC much quicker.

I wonder why that is the case ... ?

Cheers, T i m

On Tue, 5 Dec 2017 09:22:31 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Tuesday, 5 December 2017 16:30:01 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Tue, 5 Dec 2017 07:35:02 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:


It is a 700, 1300 or 2000W heater at 240V.

So how many would I need for either my office of the labs.
How many of teh above heaters would I need ?

Really? shakes head

Cheers, T i m

On 05/12/2017 17:22, whisky-dave wrote:
On Tuesday, 5 December 2017 16:30:01 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Tue, 5 Dec 2017 07:35:02 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

It is a 700, 1300 or 2000W heater at 240V.

So how many would I need for either my office of the labs.
How many of teh above heaters would I need ?

42!

As a ball park in a solid wall Victorian village hall with 16kW of wall
mounted convection heaters on flat out in winter it can hold its own in
freezing conditions - but it takes an age to warm up the air near to the
floor. It never gets there on just convection heaters if a door is open
- in contrast to what happens when the warm air curtain is running. The
warm air fills down from the ceiling to the top of the door and then
escapes. Without the curtain heater it would take 4-6 hours to warm up
and the room would still be unpleasantly cold nearest the floor.

It warms up in under an hour if the 3kW curtain heater over the door is
on as well to start with. That is a space roughly 3x6x12m. The walls are
still cold and robbing heat but once the air in the room is warmed up
the building feels fine to the people in it. You do get condensation on
the still cold walls if there are a lot of people in dancing.

You can knock about 1kW of heating off for every 10 people in the room.
(ie it still needs 6kW of heating in winter with 100 people in)

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On Tuesday, 5 December 2017 15:09:43 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Tue, 5 Dec 2017 04:58:35 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Tuesday, 5 December 2017 11:46:43 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Tue, 5 Dec 2017 02:57:18 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

snip more bizarre bs

Or I'm sure if you gave us the dimensions and some idea of what each
surface is made of someone would be able to help.


I doubt that, but lets just imagine a very simple room, about the size of my office.

3.5M X 5.5m and 3 metres in hieght.

Ok, that's a start, but ...

1) the size of the lab might be more relevant if we are wasting our
time on you.

I'm keeping it simple for you

How kind. ;-)

After talking to my studetns yesterday I now understand that I need to make things much clearer, so nwo you're getting multi-choice questions just lioke we do here when things get complicated.



as there are 3 labs,

Are they one airspace or separated. If the latter we only need the
information from one (as a starter).

No idea what do you mean by airspace seprated.
Where the flats in grenfell tower airspace or separated.

I have posted videos of the lab how comes you can't work it out from those.



and my office was teh only place I tested the heaters.

That's of no use re calculating the heat loss from the labs. IDGAF how
cold you are.

Yes I know, so how do the professionals calculate what to use or how to heat an aera. ?

A professional is someone that is paid to make these calculations and can understand both theory and practice.


2) A clue as to the size of any windows and the construction of all
the (especially external) surfaces.

Large triple glazed windows

'Large' as in your mouth or ego or something different? ;-)

Large as in the inverse square of your brain capacity.



that haven't been completely installed.

Ah, so, are we talking wind tunnel / tent then?

No, there are no wind tunnnels in this lab, the lab where there are wind tunnels in the aero lab and this is NOT a place where they test areo chocolate bars.

That's the lab just outside where they are replacing the roof and building an extra floor.

you can see some of the building work from outside.


see the small blue 'door' on the right that is the entrance that takes you to the labs, that blue section no longer exists as this is the doorway students use to go up to the 2nd floor where they enter the lab.



Or calculate it as from 3 weeks ago when we had NO windows.

I'm pretty sure your power supply wouldn't be up to that.

We do not have a power supply for that, we never had.
The heatting was suplied from a differtn building NOT in this building.

What sort of power supply would you suggest as the requirement for running labs in that the temperture should be a minuim of 16C as stated in the factories act of 1992 section 7.

How many 2KW heaters would be needed ?
or would you prefer to quote for 1300W heaters ?

Q1
If it was caluclated that you'd need 20 2KW heaters to heat a lab to the required temperature and replaced them with 1300W heaters would you need .

A More 1300W heaters than 20
B exaclty the same number of heaters
C Less 1300W heaters
D We have no idea because we don't know if they are one airspace or separated




You have been given lists of the sorts of materials and their u values
so you could help yourself a bit.

Get it through you're thick skull I am not gas registared so can't do those things.

Where TF have I said or suggested you have to deal with the *heating*
(especially gas). All you are supposed to be doing so far is working
out the heat loss.

that was the link that was posted, did you not check that link ?

On Tuesday, 5 December 2017 18:33:42 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Tue, 5 Dec 2017 08:44:51 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

snip
It's a 2kW rad made up of a 700W and a 1300W setting. Now grow up.

No it is NOT I explained this before are yuo really that think.
There is NO 700W setting and NO 1300W setting.

Aww bless.

It has 3 heat settings. All of which depend on the voltage applied.

No, really? So why don't they print a graph on the side, showing the
power consumption over a range of voltages?

Why don't you ask the suppliers , maybe you should contact sales and ask them.



How about getting a grownup to show you the I, II and III
power positions and have them explain how they relate to the
approximate power levels of these rads when used on a working UK mains
supply.

What UK mains suply do you mean 240V or the 220V typically here or teh 210-215V in my office of the 202V in the lab if we installed all the heaters managment were sending us to install. ?

Yes, *the* UK mains supply,

Which we don't have.

not your crap non-standard (for the UK
one). How many times do people have to tell you before you can accept
/ understand something?

How many time sdo you have to get it through your thick head that this is the real world NOT a simulation.
This is the whole point of real world calculations have you still not understood.






So tell me the power of the heater needed for my office aimple isn't it.

Yoda, is that you? And why do you keep on with this 'simple isn't it'
when it either is (and you don't understand) or isn't (and you don't
understand)?

What is impossible for you to comprehend is basic bread_and_butter to
many with many here being able to come to a better and more accurate
conclusion on the back of a fag packet than you could with full use of
a Cray.


I donlt need a cray to work out that a 2KW heater rated to run at 240V will not be a 2KW heater if conntect to 230V or 220V or 202V or 110V unlike you who seems to think that during this situation when yuo;re getting less power due to a volatge drop the solution is to select 1300W to get more heat.
Most people that want their environment warmer tend to increase the setting not decrease them.



What would you suggest if someone said to you during the winter that the office can reach 5C what sort of heater would you supply if you were managment ?

'Can reach 5C'? You do have a strange way with terms. Do you mean 'it
can go as low as 5C' or 'It can be 5C' .

that it can be 5C in winter, in summer it can be 29C.
(hence the fans we are given, these things you think are fan heaters.



Anyway, as it stands it was a stupid / pointless question.

Still can;t answer that can you.
So how much does a 2KW heater use ?

From
knowledge of the limitation of your scenario, an oil filled radiator
is about the only option.

Wow at last, give yourself a pad on the back, how long has this taken ?
After the college banned fan heaters (NOT fans I kn ow you have a problem telling them apart), then banned convection heaters there wasn;t much else left to use.
Yes parafin heaters wood and cola burners have never been allowed since about 1980.


Now, you have the choice of a good / large
panel rad that can actually dissipate whatever input level you set it
to without cycling or,

Where s this magic device you speak of. I;ve never seen one in the real world.
can you poin tto one so I can get estates to buy one, or however many you think we'll need.

maybe two cheaper heaters set at an input level
they can actually dissipate continuously.

and where do you get this sort of info from.
where is this stated on ANYB heater ?


What you have there is a car that has too big an engine and you think
leaving it there spinning it's wheels is the most effective way to get
from A to B.

what I have is a car that cuts out whenever it gets to 200MPH it;s spec as being able to travel at 200MPH but when it gets there after a short time the speed drops to 70MPH. So you take the car back to the gargae saying I;m racing around silverstone I want to reach 200MPH quite often but it keeps cutting back to 70MPH what should I do and the dodgey mechanic asay to you it;s yuor fault if you buy a car that;s spec'd at 200MPH you should know that you;d get better resukts if you only drove up to 130MPH.


Don't forget that convection and fan heaters have been banned.

Mate, I 'don't forget' any of it. I don't because I fully understand
the situation and have done from the exact instance you mentioned any
of it. I'm like that ... and how I can catch you out every time you
try to squirm out of stuff.

you've understood very little.

Can you answer this simple Q.

When would you expect the overheat protection system to operate on a radiator ?
when would you xpect any safety mechanism to take efect ?


p.s. We currently have the choice of *two* 450W mini oil filled rads,
or *one* 600W slimline panel.

The two mini rads have been on full since about 9 this morning and
it's only just reached 20 DegC in here now. The slimline panel would
have had it up to 20 DegC much quicker.

I wonder why that is the case ... ?

Maybe the two cheaper 450W heaters have a cut out desinged to cut out when the power disapation reaches 150W, or that they cut out because the surface area of the rad. is two small to disapate the required heat generated.
That's what happens when you buy cheaper heaters they are less efficint than something thqat has been designed properly did you not know that.


Cheers, T i m

It's swhat I've been explaining to a research student when he asked for a 100W 10R resistor and I give him
https://www.rapidonline.com/arcol-hs...sistor-62-8188

and explained that this alone couldn;t dissapte 100W (and stay in spec) UNLESS as in the datasheet it is attached to a heatsink with sutable paste and the heatsink must be of a certain size too in order that the resisor behaves within it;s stated spec.
Which for this resistor is about 900 cm^2 alumiunum at a thinkness of 3mm .
If this isnlt followed then this resistor is derated to be only able to dissapate 30W. So IT IS NOT really a 100W resistor is it.!

If a 2KW radiator cuts off and can only be used at 700W or 1300w or 1500W then it isn't a 2KW heater is it.

On Tuesday, 5 December 2017 22:16:37 UTC, charles wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Tuesday, 5 December 2017 16:30:01 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Tue, 5 Dec 2017 07:35:02 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:


It is a 700, 1300 or 2000W heater at 240V.

So how many would I need for either my office of the labs.
How many of the above heaters would I need ?

You need to determine the volume of the room, the starting temperature and
the final required temperature and how long you have to heat up the room.
From that data, YOU can determine the kilowatts required.

Yes I know, but did you know that the outside temerature varies from day-day and that the number of students numbers 100+ coming and going through swing doors will, also affect the temerature and that 100+ studetns working in the lab for 4 hours will result in a differnt temerature if there were half a dozen.
And that workman opening those doors and coming through the lab with rubble on wheel barrows is another vairiable, and through out most of teh day because the building can only be accessed by RFID cards that they won't give them to the builders that they leave the doors wedged open to the outside world so they can freely come and go.
even when the builders finsish around 3:30-4pm the doors were wedged open at 5:30pm when I left, but it could be the students doing it there's no way to tell.





--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Tuesday, 5 December 2017 22:16:37 UTC, charles wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Tuesday, 5 December 2017 16:30:01 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Tue, 5 Dec 2017 07:35:02 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:


It is a 700, 1300 or 2000W heater at 240V.

So how many would I need for either my office of the labs. How many
of the above heaters would I need ?

You need to determine the volume of the room, the starting temperature
and the final required temperature and how long you have to heat up the
room. From that data, YOU can determine the kilowatts required.

Yes I know, but did you know that the outside temerature varies from
day-day and that the number of students numbers 100+ coming and going
through swing doors will, also affect the temerature and that 100+
studetns working in the lab for 4 hours will result in a differnt
temerature if there were half a dozen. And that workman opening those
doors and coming through the lab with rubble on wheel barrows is another
vairiable, and through out most of teh day because the building can only
be accessed by RFID cards that they won't give them to the builders that
they leave the doors wedged open to the outside world so they can freely
come and go. even when the builders finsish around 3:30-4pm the doors
were wedged open at 5:30pm when I left, but it could be the students
doing it there's no way to tell.


Heating systems need to be designed for the worst conditions. If the
outside temperature gets too hot or if you have 100 students in the lab,
then your heating system won't come on. That's what thermostats are for.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

On Wed, 6 Dec 2017 02:43:32 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

snip

I'm keeping it simple for you

How kind. ;-)

After talking to my studetns yesterday I now understand that I need to make things much clearer, so nwo you're getting multi-choice questions just lioke we do here when things get complicated.

How kind ... but hey, if it helps *you* understand then I'm up for
anything. ;-)



as there are 3 labs,

Are they one airspace or separated. If the latter we only need the
information from one (as a starter).

No idea what do you mean by airspace seprated.

Really? Are the labs open plan or are they separated by a barrier of
some sort?

I have posted videos of the lab how comes you can't work it out from those.

Because I'm not your wet nurse mate.

and my office was teh only place I tested the heaters.

That's of no use re calculating the heat loss from the labs. IDGAF how
cold you are.

Yes I know, so how do the professionals calculate what to use or how to heat an aera. ?

Using the tools you have been given many times now.

A professional is someone that is paid to make these calculations and can understand both theory and practice.

But it doesn't require 'a professional', just someone with more than
one brain cell.


2) A clue as to the size of any windows and the construction of all
the (especially external) surfaces.

Large triple glazed windows

'Large' as in your mouth or ego or something different? ;-)

Large as in the inverse square of your brain capacity.

So, you don't know how to use a rule either now? Or maybe you are
physically disabled so can't reach the windows from your wheelchair?

snip

Or calculate it as from 3 weeks ago when we had NO windows.

I'm pretty sure your power supply wouldn't be up to that.

We do not have a power supply for that, we never had.

I know as the one in the lab is poor.

The heatting was suplied from a differtn building NOT in this building.

What sort of power supply would you suggest as the requirement for running labs in that the temperture should be a minuim of 16C as stated in the factories act of 1992 section 7.

A standard domestic UK spec one would be fine, where you have access
to the full voltage even under a reasonable load.

How many 2KW heaters would be needed ?
or would you prefer to quote for 1300W heaters ?

Impossible to determine until you have done the thermal calculations.

Q1
If it was caluclated that you'd need 20 2KW heaters to heat a lab to the required temperature and replaced them with 1300W heaters would you need .

A More 1300W heaters than 20

Depends on the effective output of each.

B exaclty the same number of heaters

Depends on the effective output of each.

C Less 1300W heaters

Depends on the effective output of each.

D We have no idea because we don't know if they are one airspace or separated

Or what the thermal requirements for the space is.


You have been given lists of the sorts of materials and their u values
so you could help yourself a bit.

Get it through you're thick skull I am not gas registared so can't do those things.

Where TF have I said or suggested you have to deal with the *heating*
(especially gas). All you are supposed to be doing so far is working
out the heat loss.

that was the link that was posted, did you not check that link ?

The link I posted? If yes then yes, of course, that's why I posted it!
So, what you have done is taken a selected word or sentence from that,
determined that you have to be Gas Safe registered (or somesuch) and
discarded the bit that was very pertinent.

Cheers, T i m

On Wed, 6 Dec 2017 03:23:03 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Tuesday, 5 December 2017 18:33:42 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Tue, 5 Dec 2017 08:44:51 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

snip
It's a 2kW rad made up of a 700W and a 1300W setting. Now grow up.

No it is NOT I explained this before are yuo really that think.
There is NO 700W setting and NO 1300W setting.

Aww bless.

It has 3 heat settings. All of which depend on the voltage applied.

No, really? So why don't they print a graph on the side, showing the
power consumption over a range of voltages?

Why don't you ask the suppliers , maybe you should contact sales and ask them.

I don't need to mate because unlike you, I know the answer.


How about getting a grownup to show you the I, II and III
power positions and have them explain how they relate to the
approximate power levels of these rads when used on a working UK mains
supply.

What UK mains suply do you mean 240V or the 220V typically here or teh 210-215V in my office of the 202V in the lab if we installed all the heaters managment were sending us to install. ?

Yes, *the* UK mains supply,

Which we don't have.

Quite.

not your crap non-standard (for the UK
one). How many times do people have to tell you before you can accept
/ understand something?

How many time sdo you have to get it through your thick head that this is the real world NOT a simulation.

Because it isn't the real world it's just *your* real world.

This is the whole point of real world calculations have you still not understood.

See above.


So tell me the power of the heater needed for my office aimple isn't it.

Yoda, is that you? And why do you keep on with this 'simple isn't it'
when it either is (and you don't understand) or isn't (and you don't
understand)?

What is impossible for you to comprehend is basic bread_and_butter to
many with many here being able to come to a better and more accurate
conclusion on the back of a fag packet than you could with full use of
a Cray.


I donlt need a cray to work out that a 2KW heater rated to run at 240V will not be a 2KW heater if conntect to 230V or 220V or 202V or 110V

Well done. That's some progress for you then.

unlike you who seems to think that during this situation when yuo;re getting less power due to a volatge drop the solution is to select 1300W to get more heat.

Because you may actually get more heat ... for reasons you don't have
the brains to comprehend.

Most people that want their environment warmer tend to increase the setting not decrease them.

Of course they would ... and under ideal conditions that would be the
right thing to do.

Let me try to explain it to you in one word. 'Wheelspin'.



What would you suggest if someone said to you during the winter that the office can reach 5C what sort of heater would you supply if you were managment ?

'Can reach 5C'? You do have a strange way with terms. Do you mean 'it
can go as low as 5C' or 'It can be 5C' .

that it can be 5C in winter, in summer it can be 29C.

No, really?

(hence the fans we are given, these things you think are fan heaters.

Yes, of course I do. Hey, what do you call the resultant when you
place say ... a fan ... in front of say ... a heater?



Anyway, as it stands it was a stupid / pointless question.

Still can;t answer that can you.

No, you are right. Because it's impossible.

So how much does a 2KW heater use ?

42?

From
knowledge of the limitation of your scenario, an oil filled radiator
is about the only option.

Wow at last, give yourself a pad on the back, how long has this taken ?

For you, forever. ;-(

After the college banned fan heaters (NOT fans I kn ow you have a problem telling them apart),

See above.

then banned convection heaters there wasn;t much else left to use.

I know, you said.

snip bs

Now, you have the choice of a good / large
panel rad that can actually dissipate whatever input level you set it
to without cycling or,

Where s this magic device you speak of.

The one I have here in the lounge you mean ... or the one you have at
home or in your lab ... you know, any heater that can dissipate heat
without cycling.

I;ve never seen one in the real world.

You have never been in the real world mate.

can you poin tto one so I can get estates to buy one, or however many you think we'll need.

Any panel heater with a large enough surface area such that it can
stay on full and not cycle (on the overtemp stat).

maybe two cheaper heaters set at an input level
they can actually dissipate continuously.

and where do you get this sort of info from.

Science mate.

where is this stated on ANYB heater ?

I doubt it.


What you have there is a car that has too big an engine and you think
leaving it there spinning it's wheels is the most effective way to get
from A to B.

what I have is a car that cuts out whenever it gets to 200MPH it;s spec as being able to travel at 200MPH but when it gets there after a short time the speed drops to 70MPH.

Yup, same as what I said. A car that isn't able to maintain full power
for whatever reason.

snip waffle

Don't forget that convection and fan heaters have been banned.

Mate, I 'don't forget' any of it. I don't because I fully understand
the situation and have done from the exact instance you mentioned any
of it. I'm like that ... and how I can catch you out every time you
try to squirm out of stuff.

you've understood very little.

I've understood it all. It's energy 101 mate.

Can you answer this simple Q.

You would have no idea if a question was simple or not as you don't
understand the science.

When would you expect the overheat protection system to operate on a radiator ?

When it was above the temperature the designers consider to be
'overheated'.

when would you xpect any safety mechanism to take efect ?

When it was overheating.


p.s. We currently have the choice of *two* 450W mini oil filled rads,
or *one* 600W slimline panel.

The two mini rads have been on full since about 9 this morning and
it's only just reached 20 DegC in here now. The slimline panel would
have had it up to 20 DegC much quicker.

I wonder why that is the case ... ?

Maybe the two cheaper 450W heaters have a cut out desinged to cut out when the power disapation reaches 150W, or that they cut out because the surface area of the rad. is two small to disapate the required heat generated.

Brilliant! Take two gold stars!

That's what happens when you buy cheaper heaters they are less efficint than something thqat has been designed properly did you not know that.

I did ... now you do too. I hope that will save any more stupid
unanswerable questions from you now!


It's swhat I've been explaining to a research student when he asked for a 100W 10R resistor and I give him
https://www.rapidonline.com/arcol-hs...sistor-62-8188

and explained that this alone couldn;t dissapte 100W (and stay in spec) UNLESS as in the datasheet it is attached to a heatsink with sutable paste and the heatsink must be of a certain size too in order that the resisor behaves within it;s stated spec.
Which for this resistor is about 900 cm^2 alumiunum at a thinkness of 3mm .
If this isnlt followed then this resistor is derated to be only able to dissapate 30W. So IT IS NOT really a 100W resistor is it.!

Yes, when used as prescribed.

If a 2KW radiator cuts off and can only be used at 700W or 1300w or 1500W then it isn't a 2KW heater is it.

1) It is for a period of 2 hours you told us.

2) It is, as long as the surrounding temperature is cold enough to
ensure it doesn't overtemp. Send it to one of the polar research
stations and get them to test it. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Wednesday, 6 December 2017 13:17:57 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 6 Dec 2017 02:43:32 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

snip

I'm keeping it simple for you

How kind. ;-)

After talking to my studetns yesterday I now understand that I need to make things much clearer, so nwo you're getting multi-choice questions just lioke we do here when things get complicated.

How kind ... but hey, if it helps *you* understand then I'm up for
anything. ;-)

I see it was to complex for you so you didnlt answer, you should do what the students and guess then you can get 25% right only another 5% to go to get a low pass rate.




as there are 3 labs,

Are they one airspace or separated. If the latter we only need the
information from one (as a starter).

No idea what do you mean by airspace seprated.

Really? Are the labs open plan or are they separated by a barrier of
some sort?

They are sperated by swing doors I've already told you that, the videos show those doors, I even told you thet the doors were fire doors with the foam strip down the centre. Are swing doors classed as barriers of some sort.?




I have posted videos of the lab how comes you can't work it out from those.

Because I'm not your wet nurse mate.

you too stupid even to work out whether doors are barriers is that it, too complex for you to work out is it.

and my office was teh only place I tested the heaters.

That's of no use re calculating the heat loss from the labs. IDGAF how
cold you are.

Yes I know, so how do the professionals calculate what to use or how to heat an aera. ?

Using the tools you have been given many times now.

yuo've not given any tols just talked crap.
No what about there's barriers or are they doors.


A professional is someone that is paid to make these calculations and can understand both theory and practice.

But it doesn't require 'a professional', just someone with more than
one brain cell.

which is exactly why you can't do it.

Yopu have the same info as I have to work with so show me how yuo do the calculations.




2) A clue as to the size of any windows and the construction of all
the (especially external) surfaces.

Large triple glazed windows

'Large' as in your mouth or ego or something different? ;-)

Large as in the inverse square of your brain capacity.

So, you don't know how to use a rule either now? Or maybe you are
physically disabled so can't reach the windows from your wheelchair?

I know how large they are but unlike you I don't believe say a 2 X 1 metre window has any fixed parameters other than physical size, our previous windows were the same size and couple be open enough that stuents climed in through them and I don't see how the previous single glazed windows can have the same properties as our new triple glazed windows that can only be open by a few cms.

Only someoen as stupid as yuo would propsoe that.
So I don;t really know what relivance window size has.
Surely if you had any clue yuo'd be asking about other critera, but of course you haven;t like all 2KW rads all 2KW rads. work the same just like all windows have the same properties.


Or calculate it as from 3 weeks ago when we had NO windows.

I'm pretty sure your power supply wouldn't be up to that.

We do not have a power supply for that, we never had.

I know as the one in the lab is poor.

Been fine for 20 years now, and is still doing everything we'd want of it, other than not quite enough sockets, if H&S donlt want us to use extention leads then they'll have to explain to teaching that we can't run the number of students through the lab as they have timetabled.
Then let them fight it out do we halve the number of students reducing income and there for their saleries or postition.




The heatting was suplied from a differtn building NOT in this building.

What sort of power supply would you suggest as the requirement for running labs in that the temperture should be a minuim of 16C as stated in the factories act of 1992 section 7.

A standard domestic UK spec one would be fine, where you have access
to the full voltage even under a reasonable load.

So which one, yuo;'re talkign craop again aren't you.

How many KW is this heaters that you can't link to.?



How many 2KW heaters would be needed ?
or would you prefer to quote for 1300W heaters ?

Impossible to determine until you have done the thermal calculations.

I've told you I can't do them and niether can you.



Q1
If it was caluclated that you'd need 20 2KW heaters to heat a lab to the required temperature and replaced them with 1300W heaters would you need .

A More 1300W heaters than 20

Depends on the effective output of each.

What do you mean by effective output ?
Deosn;t that depend on the heaters themselves ?


B exaclty the same number of heaters

Depends on the effective output of each.

C Less 1300W heaters

Depends on the effective output of each.

D We have no idea because we don't know if they are one airspace or separated

Or what the thermal requirements for the space is.

So you havent a clue as expected.

On Wednesday, 6 December 2017 13:35:29 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 6 Dec 2017 03:23:03 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Tuesday, 5 December 2017 18:33:42 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Tue, 5 Dec 2017 08:44:51 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

snip
It's a 2kW rad made up of a 700W and a 1300W setting. Now grow up.

No it is NOT I explained this before are yuo really that think.
There is NO 700W setting and NO 1300W setting.

Aww bless.

It has 3 heat settings. All of which depend on the voltage applied.

No, really? So why don't they print a graph on the side, showing the
power consumption over a range of voltages?

Why don't you ask the suppliers , maybe you should contact sales and ask them.

I don't need to mate because unlike you, I know the answer.

So why don't they print such a graph ?



How about getting a grownup to show you the I, II and III
power positions and have them explain how they relate to the
approximate power levels of these rads when used on a working UK mains
supply.

What UK mains suply do you mean 240V or the 220V typically here or teh 210-215V in my office of the 202V in the lab if we installed all the heaters managment were sending us to install. ?

Yes, *the* UK mains supply,

Which we don't have.

Quite.

And this is why you think we get 1300W isn't it when in reality it's closer to 1KW.


not your crap non-standard (for the UK
one). How many times do people have to tell you before you can accept
/ understand something?

How many time sdo you have to get it through your thick head that this is the real world NOT a simulation.

Because it isn't the real world it's just *your* real world.

and that is where the heaters will be so that;'s why you have to use those stats for the calculatoins yuo can;t use 240V and you can't use 110V if you want to work stuff out, in the same way you'd have to account for the weather conditions, this is probbaly why they don;t sell many 2KW raidiators in hot countries or tehy don;t have the same kind of heating arrangments.
When I was in greece most homes had air conditioning unlike most homes in london.


This is the whole point of real world calculations have you still not understood.

See above.

Nothing of relivance above that you've written.


I donlt need a cray to work out that a 2KW heater rated to run at 240V will not be a 2KW heater if conntect to 230V or 220V or 202V or 110V

Well done. That's some progress for you then.

I told you that on day ONE and it was part of teh original qiuestion that you have failed at ansering other than saying the 2KW heater has a 1300W setting.



unlike you who seems to think that during this situation when yuo;re getting less power due to a volatge drop the solution is to select 1300W to get more heat.

Because you may actually get more heat ... for reasons you don't have
the brains to comprehend.

Then prove it.
Or tell you why you think the overheat protection comes in so quickly before the room is up to temperature, but you've missed that emtirely haven't you.



Most people that want their environment warmer tend to increase the setting not decrease them.

Of course they would ... and under ideal conditions that would be the
right thing to do.

Let me try to explain it to you in one word. 'Wheelspin'.

what about wheelspin, are yuo saying the best cars use wheelspin to win, I've not noticed Lewis Hamalton going on about how wheelspining won a race for him.
Do yuo think skidding is also a good approach to winning.


What would you suggest if someone said to you during the winter that the office can reach 5C what sort of heater would you supply if you were managment ?

'Can reach 5C'? You do have a strange way with terms. Do you mean 'it
can go as low as 5C' or 'It can be 5C' .

that it can be 5C in winter, in summer it can be 29C.

No, really?

Yes really.


(hence the fans we are given, these things you think are fan heaters.

Yes, of course I do. Hey, what do you call the resultant when you
place say ... a fan ... in front of say ... a heater?

No idea, what happens when you put a watch on a wall is it a wall clock.
When you a nut on a chest is it a chestnut.



Anyway, as it stands it was a stupid / pointless question.

Still can;t answer that can you.

No, you are right. Because it's impossible.

you don't even know how to, do you.



So how much does a 2KW heater use ?

42?

Mice.
You should at least know that.




Now, you have the choice of a good / large
panel rad that can actually dissipate whatever input level you set it
to without cycling or,

Where s this magic device you speak of.

The one I have here in the lounge you mean ... or the one you have at
home or in your lab ... you know, any heater that can dissipate heat
without cycling.

So not the ones in the lab them.


can you poin tto one so I can get estates to buy one, or however many you think we'll need.

Any panel heater with a large enough surface area such that it can
stay on full and not cycle (on the overtemp stat).

Brillant at last so which ones are those I told you that all 6 of 6 cycled.
I told you from day one that they were crap £25 !




maybe two cheaper heaters set at an input level
they can actually dissipate continuously.

and where do you get this sort of info from.

Science mate.

What qualifications to you have in science you don;t even know about teh properties of heaters or anything esle.



what I have is a car that cuts out whenever it gets to 200MPH it;s spec as being able to travel at 200MPH but when it gets there after a short time the speed drops to 70MPH.

Yup, same as what I said. A car that isn't able to maintain full power
for whatever reason.

and that is the best car is it, that is the car yuo;d buy a 200MPH car
that can only really be run at 130 at best and if you try to get 200 it sends you back to 70 MPH, what have yuo brought a 2CV with a speed stripe on it.