On Wed, 6 Dec 2017 05:42:02 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

snip
as there are 3 labs,

Are they one airspace or separated. If the latter we only need the
information from one (as a starter).

No idea what do you mean by airspace seprated.

Really? Are the labs open plan or are they separated by a barrier of
some sort?

They are sperated by swing doors I've already told you that,

Did you tell me that before of after you I asked you the question
here?

the videos show those doors,

I haven't bothered with the videos. If you CBA to do stuff to help,
nor can I.

are swing doors classed as barriers of some sort.?

What do you think? Can the heat move freely through the doors when
they are closed?



I have posted videos of the lab how comes you can't work it out from those.

Because I'm not your wet nurse mate.

you too stupid even to work out whether doors are barriers is that it, too complex for you to work out is it.

Is it? Given I asked you the question it's you that could be too
stupid to answer the question eh? Remember, what I also said is that
if the temperature of the rooms either side of the doors, it didn't
really matter.

snip

Yes I know, so how do the professionals calculate what to use or how to heat an aera. ?

Using the tools you have been given many times now.

yuo've not given any tols just talked crap.

And did John Rumm talk crap, as he also gave you the tools?

No what about there's barriers or are they doors.

Grow up.


A professional is someone that is paid to make these calculations and can understand both theory and practice.

But it doesn't require 'a professional', just someone with more than
one brain cell.

which is exactly why you can't do it.

Bwhahaha. Oh, you are funny dave (in a very sad way).

Yopu have the same info as I have to work with so show me how yuo do the calculations.

What's that, an admission you don't have a clue where to start and are
asking for help? If that is the case, that could be ok. However, for
*anyone* to be able to help you, *you* (or someone who knows how to
use a tape measure) need to take some measurements (of a lab, not your
car or the toilets).


2) A clue as to the size of any windows and the construction of all
the (especially external) surfaces.

Large triple glazed windows

'Large' as in your mouth or ego or something different? ;-)

Large as in the inverse square of your brain capacity.

So, you don't know how to use a rule either now? Or maybe you are
physically disabled so can't reach the windows from your wheelchair?

I know how large they are but unlike you I don't believe say a 2 X 1 metre window has any fixed parameters other than physical size,

LOL!!!! You really can't make this up can you ... ;-)

Well Sherlock, if you are saying that is what one windows actually is
then size then that would be a start. Then we need to know if it is
single / double / triple glazed and we can make a stab at it's thermal
properties.

snip

I don't see how the previous single glazed windows can have the same properties as our new triple glazed windows

snip What is that ... a tiny glimmer of understanding of the whole
f'ing point of the u values and the dimension questions!

Only someoen as stupid as yuo would propsoe that.

Bingo.

So I don;t really know what relivance window size has.

Of course you don't, like you don't have a clue about most of
anything. How do you think you consider the losses through any of the
different materials unless we know how much of each material there is?

Seriously, a child could work that out.

Surely if you had any clue

And I do, as I'm the one leading you through this by the nose ...

yuo'd be asking about other critera,

I have, but it whooshed you obviously (like most stuff).

but of course you haven;t

But of course I have ... several times. Remember me asking about the
dimensions of the room, and the materials all the walls, floors and
ceilings were made of and ...

like all 2KW rads all 2KW rads.

Irrelevant to the calculations re the energy required to get the space
to a certain temperature.

work the same just like all windows have the same properties.

What??


Or calculate it as from 3 weeks ago when we had NO windows.

I'm pretty sure your power supply wouldn't be up to that.

We do not have a power supply for that, we never had.

I know as the one in the lab is poor.

Been fine for 20 years now, and is still doing everything we'd want of it, other than not quite enough sockets,

Yeah, it's fine for all this things it's fine for but not the things
it isn't fine for. Brilliant.

if H&S donlt want us to use extention leads then they'll have to explain to teaching that we can't run the number of students through the lab as they have timetabled.

WTF have extension leads got to do with it?

Then let them fight it out do we halve the number of students reducing income and there for their saleries or postition.

And reducing the heating energy in the labs at the same time.



The heatting was suplied from a differtn building NOT in this building.

What sort of power supply would you suggest as the requirement for running labs in that the temperture should be a minuim of 16C as stated in the factories act of 1992 section 7.

A standard domestic UK spec one would be fine, where you have access
to the full voltage even under a reasonable load.

So which one, yuo;'re talkign craop again aren't you.

See above. The question can't be answered any other way.

How many KW is this heaters that you can't link to.?

What heaters? YOU DO THE CALCS FIRST AND THAT DETERMINES HOW MUCH
HEATING YOU NEED.



How many 2KW heaters would be needed ?
or would you prefer to quote for 1300W heaters ?

Impossible to determine until you have done the thermal calculations.

I've told you I can't do them and niether can you.

So, are you now admitting you are incontinent and can't apply some
numbers to a simple rule?

I can't do it because I'm not there with a tape measure but if I was I
could do what is required in a few minutes. A child could do it
equally quickly (if they were 6' 2" tall).



Q1
If it was caluclated that you'd need 20 2KW heaters to heat a lab to the required temperature and replaced them with 1300W heaters would you need .

A More 1300W heaters than 20

Depends on the effective output of each.

What do you mean by effective output ?
Deosn;t that depend on the heaters themselves ?

No. Energy out is energy out, no matter how it happens.


B exaclty the same number of heaters

Depends on the effective output of each.

C Less 1300W heaters

Depends on the effective output of each.

D We have no idea because we don't know if they are one airspace or separated

Or what the thermal requirements for the space is.

So you havent a clue as expected.

Do I have a clue about the thermal requirements of your undisclosed
lab size and the undisclosed materials? Yes, you are right, I don't
have a clue.

However, the frightening thing is you are actually there and could
take the measurements and then do the calcs and you can't!


Cheers, T i m

On Wed, 6 Dec 2017 08:50:03 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

snip

No, really? So why don't they print a graph on the side, showing the
power consumption over a range of voltages?

Why don't you ask the suppliers , maybe you should contact sales and ask them.

I don't need to mate because unlike you, I know the answer.

So why don't they print such a graph ?

Because it would be overkill. Those who understand don't need one and
those that don't wouldn't understand it.

snip

And this is why you think we get 1300W isn't it when in reality it's closer to 1KW.

I don't think you get 1300W. I'm describing the arbitrary setting on
the rad.

snip

Because it isn't the real world it's just *your* real world.

and that is where the heaters will be so that;'s why you have to use those stats for the calculatoins

The heaters aren't involved in the heat loss calculations.

if you want to work stuff out, in the same way you'd have to account for the weather conditions,

Yes, and already covered in my previous efforts to help you.

snip witterings

unlike you who seems to think that during this situation when yuo;re getting less power due to a volatge drop the solution is to select 1300W to get more heat.

Because you may actually get more heat ... for reasons you don't have
the brains to comprehend.

Then prove it.

I can't 'prove it' because you won't do the tests.

Or tell you why you think the overheat protection comes in so quickly before the room is up to temperature, but you've missed that emtirely haven't you.

You poor, dumb fcuk. I've explained it over and over and forwards and
backwards and you still don't even have the vaguest clue do you. If
you spent more time trying to actually take it in and less time
complaining, whining and crying you might actually learn something.

snip

Let me try to explain it to you in one word. 'Wheelspin'.

what about wheelspin, are yuo saying the best cars use wheelspin to win, I've not noticed Lewis Hamalton going on about how wheelspining won a race for him.
Do yuo think skidding is also a good approach to winning.

Whoosh. I didn't mention skidding, I didn't mention racing, I just
mentioned wheel spin. If you put more power into a system than it can
handle then something has to give. With a car the driven wheel will
lose traction and spin. With an oil filled rad it will trip the
overtemp stat.


snip

(hence the fans we are given, these things you think are fan heaters.

Yes, of course I do. Hey, what do you call the resultant when you
place say ... a fan ... in front of say ... a heater?

No idea,

snip

I didn't think you would.


snip

The one I have here in the lounge you mean ... or the one you have at
home or in your lab ... you know, any heater that can dissipate heat
without cycling.

So not the ones in the lab them.

No, they are fine ... Yes, of course the ones in the lab!


can you poin tto one so I can get estates to buy one, or however many you think we'll need.

Any panel heater with a large enough surface area such that it can
stay on full and not cycle (on the overtemp stat).

Brillant at last so which ones are those I told you that all 6 of 6 cycled.

You did? Even the 1.5 or 1.6 (whatever they were) did on full power?
What about on position II?

I told you from day one that they were crap £25 !

And I agreed with you!


maybe two cheaper heaters set at an input level
they can actually dissipate continuously.

and where do you get this sort of info from.

Science mate.

What qualifications to you have in science you don;t even know about teh properties of heaters or anything esle.

Whatever qualification I have must be 1,000,000 times better than
yours. Really, your knowledge of anything seems dire. In fact I think
you are just trolling as no one could really be this dumb. ;-(


what I have is a car that cuts out whenever it gets to 200MPH it;s spec as being able to travel at 200MPH but when it gets there after a short time the speed drops to 70MPH.

Yup, same as what I said. A car that isn't able to maintain full power
for whatever reason.

and that is the best car is it, that is the car yuo;d buy a 200MPH car
that can only really be run at 130 at best and if you try to get 200 it sends you back to 70 MPH,

Yes, that's exactly what my mini radiators do, just like your bigger
ones.

what have yuo brought a 2CV with a speed stripe on it.

No stripe mate, just a small low powered and cheap rad that is
overpowered for it's surface area.

Clad my aston martin one-77 doesn't do that.

I'm sure it doesn't. You couldn't even pass a driving test!

snip bs

when would you xpect any safety mechanism to take efect ?

When it was overheating.

Why & when would it overheat then ?

Why, because it's combined elements create more heat energy, even on
dangerously reduced voltage than the radiator can dissipate without
getting too hot itself.

When ... when it gets too hot.

How long would yuo expect to be able to leave such a heater on before it overheated ?
5 seconds 10 seconds....

Before I experienced it happening. Never. Since I have experienced it
happening, maybe 10 minutes.



p.s. We currently have the choice of *two* 450W mini oil filled rads,
or *one* 600W slimline panel.

The two mini rads have been on full since about 9 this morning and
it's only just reached 20 DegC in here now. The slimline panel would
have had it up to 20 DegC much quicker.

I wonder why that is the case ... ?

Maybe the two cheaper 450W heaters have a cut out desinged to cut out when the power disapation reaches 150W, or that they cut out because the surface area of the rad. is two small to disapate the required heat generated.

Brilliant! Take two gold stars!

See can tell a crap heater .... you can;t

I can't without experience of them and when they are in the box, no, I
can't. Just like you couldn't tell till you plugged them into a power
monitor and saw them cutting back to 700W.

otherwise yuo wouldn;t have wasted good money on buying 2 crap heaters

I didn't waste my money because they do what I want in most cases and
will do what I want in all cases (better than anything I can buy off
the shelf) when I've finished with them. When they are in a big room
they don't heat it fast enough on a very cold day and they are too
noisy for the bedroom.

was in at a car boot sale.

No, they were in a Homebase sale.


That's what happens when you buy cheaper heaters they are less efficint than something thqat has been designed properly did you not know that.

I did ... now you do too. I hope that will save any more stupid
unanswerable questions from you now!

I wouldnlt buy such crap heaters in the first place,

The thing is, you don't have the brains to deal with what you have
been given to get the best out of them.

eg. If you found the 2kW heaters didn't cycle when on the 1.3kW
setting and two of those were only 60 quid, you would be getting a
2.6kW heater for less than the price of a quality single 2.6kW heater
(that didn't cycle on full) and so better VFM.

I asked for ones with timers on too, too expensive though.

And more unreliable and pointless (as you turn the power off every
night).


snip

and these 2KW heaters that don't work even when using them on a 202V supply.

Well they do work (as 2kW heaters) but only for a couple of hours from
cold and on your crap supply.

On the proper volatge they would have gone into over temp much sooner.

Very good ... have another two gold stars (One for the correct
understanding of the 'proper voltage' (at last) and the other for
knowing it would cause it to overtemp quicker)! ;-)

Which I assume you'd think is ideal if you arrive in a room at 14C and you need it to be 16C minium ASAP use a heater that will reach it's maxium output within 20mins and tehn switch from 2KW to 700W, brillant idea.

You said it was 2 hours?

But 1) I didn't specify the heaters, 2) I didn't order the heaters and
3) I'm not the one NOT now trying to get the best out of the heaters.

And you know what 'assumption' makes ...?




If a 2KW radiator cuts off and can only be used at 700W or 1300w or 1500W then it isn't a 2KW heater is it.

1) It is for a period of 2 hours you told us.

No I told you it was about 20 mins,

And like I told you, you have to have a good memory if you think you
can lie and get away with it:

"So if this heater is left on its doen;t produce 2KW of heat it
doesn't consume 2KW of electrical power it drops to 700W so
effectively a 700W heater after two hours NOT a 2KW heater which is
what most would assume as it's written on the box and the unit."

'Sorry' would be the right response to that dave.

I only nociced it after a couole of hours when I went to check to see why the MCB hadn't tripped it was due to trip after 2.7 hours (from the graph) accodring to the data sheet if we were pulling 5 x 8 amps =40 for a 32A MCB.

That's not what you said above though eh.

ANd that is why I used my maplin power meeter adn found that the first 3 heaters I checked werentl; running at 1.3Kw or 1.7Kw or 1.8Kw or 2KW but 700W, and teh indicatoirs on both switches indicated that both elements were ON.

Yes, they may well be on, it's the overtemp stat that seems to only be
connected to the 1300W element that has cut it out.

Which if you had any sense you'd assume that meant that both coils were giving out heat,

No, having sense and 'assuming' aren't the same thing.

and because the lable on the heater said 2000W you assumed that it would be using 2000w of electrical power when in relaity it was only use 700W.

Nope. I would have assumed it would use 2kW until it overheated (if it
was going to) and then it dropped back to 700W for some strange reason
(I would have expected 0W).

Now, can you get back to measuring one of the labs so we can get on
with doing something useful please?

Cheers, T i m

On Wednesday, 6 December 2017 17:35:43 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 6 Dec 2017 05:42:02 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

snip
as there are 3 labs,

Are they one airspace or separated. If the latter we only need the
information from one (as a starter).

No idea what do you mean by airspace seprated.

Really? Are the labs open plan or are they separated by a barrier of
some sort?

They are sperated by swing doors I've already told you that,

Did you tell me that before of after you I asked you the question
here?

My original question here had NOTHING to do with the lab or swoing doors, yuo SHOULD be able to tell that from the Q in the subject line.
I DO NOT believe that that oil filled radaitors need to in dicate how many and what sort of doors are being used in theri vicinity.
No way does the data sheet give any indication of whether or not teh 2KW was dependant on doors either opening or closing.


the videos show those doors,

I haven't bothered with the videos. If you CBA to do stuff to help,
nor can I.

Which is why you haven't a clue as to the REAL world adn why you think a 2KW heater will use 2KW.

are swing doors classed as barriers of some sort.?

What do you think? Can the heat move freely through the doors when
they are closed?

Not according to the fire regs, but the doors are mostly left open, UNLESS there is a lecture going on it that room which happens perhaps 2-4 times a week, or a meeting is there or theres too much noise(audio, drilling etc) coming from that area then we close the doors.


I have posted videos of the lab how comes you can't work it out from those.

Because I'm not your wet nurse mate.

you just saiod it wass because you didn't look at them make up your mind.




Yes I know, so how do the professionals calculate what to use or how to heat an aera. ?

Using the tools you have been given many times now.

yuo've not given any tols just talked crap.

And did John Rumm talk crap, as he also gave you the tools?

There were no tools that were any use unless you can account for those variables.

A professional is someone that is paid to make these calculations and can understand both theory and practice.

But it doesn't require 'a professional', just someone with more than
one brain cell.

which is exactly why you can't do it.

Bwhahaha. Oh, you are funny dave (in a very sad way).

You say John Rumm has given the tools if that is the case why canl;t you use those, can you at least explain that.
\You;re excuse is that yuor not going to help, isn;t it, in reality it means yuo can;t help, you can't even work out the very basics of ohms law.



Yopu have the same info as I have to work with so show me how yuo do the calculations.

What's that, an admission you don't have a clue where to start and are
asking for help?

I have a clue where to start which is far more than you have.






I know how large they are but unlike you I don't believe say a 2 X 1 metre window has any fixed parameters other than physical size,

LOL!!!! You really can't make this up can you ... ;-)

but you are because yuor an idiot that thinks all windows of teh same size have the same properties.


Well Sherlock, if you are saying that is what one windows actually is
then size then that would be a start. Then we need to know if it is
single / double / triple glazed and we can make a stab at it's thermal
properties.

I don't know those properties other than it is triple glazed.
Previously the windows were single galzed and I;ve no idea ofm the original design for calculating the heatign system ahad single glazed windows were even included in the original design or not.

I also don't know what the cladding was like that has been removed either, I do not know how differnt the removal of asbestos made in teh 1970s and teh 1990s, and now again they have done further checks.
The windows also havent been sealed yet and I don't know how much differnce that makes, I can hear the person in the next office NOT through the walls but through where the windows meet at the edges.
I can't sort of predict how many students will come through the door, I can;lt predict how often the builders will leave teh exteranl doors open or for how long during the day or night.
As I've tried to expain there are too many variables of which I have no control overv and one of the biggest is the weather.





So I don;t really know what relivance window size has.

Of course you don't, like you don't have a clue about most of
anything. How do you think you consider the losses through any of the
different materials unless we know how much of each material there is?

Seriously, a child could work that out.

Prove it then.

On Thu, 7 Dec 2017 02:45:41 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

snip daves bs

are swing doors classed as barriers of some sort.?

What do you think? Can the heat move freely through the doors when
they are closed?

Not according to the fire regs, but the doors are mostly left open, UNLESS there is a lecture going on it that room which happens perhaps 2-4 times a week, or a meeting is there or theres too much noise(audio, drilling etc) coming from that area then we close the doors.

So, as I said previously, the presence of the swing doors may not
impact the calcs if the temperatures are roughly the same on both
side. The chances are that will be more likely when the doors are open
rather than closed.

snip

yuo've not given any tols just talked crap.

And did John Rumm talk crap, as he also gave you the tools?

There were no tools that were any use unless you can account for those variables.

And you can account for them by going 'worst case'.

A professional is someone that is paid to make these calculations and can understand both theory and practice.

But it doesn't require 'a professional', just someone with more than
one brain cell.

which is exactly why you can't do it.

Bwhahaha. Oh, you are funny dave (in a very sad way).

You say John Rumm has given the tools if that is the case why canl;t you use those, can you at least explain that.

Yes, I can, very easily. No. The answer is 'no' because I don't have
the measurements and U values for the construction of your lab.

\You;re excuse is that yuor not going to help, isn;t it,

How many times have I told you that if you do the bit that only you
can do, 'we' might be able to help you.

in reality it means yuo can;t help,

In reality you are right. (see above).

snip more of daves bs

Well Sherlock, if you are saying that is what one windows actually is
then size then that would be a start. Then we need to know if it is
single / double / triple glazed and we can make a stab at it's thermal
properties.

I don't know those properties other than it is triple glazed.

So you know it is triple glazed but can't find a way to work out how
big it is?

Previously the windows were single galzed and I;ve no idea ofm the original design for calculating the heatign system ahad single glazed windows were even included in the original design or not.

Irrelevant to what you are trying to do now.

snip

The windows also havent been sealed yet and I don't know how much differnce that makes, I can hear the person in the next office NOT through the walls but through where the windows meet at the edges.

That would make a big difference ... and something you might have
mentioned sooner.

I can't sort of predict how many students will come through the door,

It doesn't matter for the ball park figures.

I can;lt predict how often the builders will leave teh exteranl doors open or for how long during the day or night.

Presumably that won't be happening indefinably?

As I've tried to expain there are too many variables of which I have no control overv and one of the biggest is the weather.

Understood ... but you haven't even offered the information up for
those things you can measure. And as far as the weather goes, again
you calculate for the typical worst case. If the heaters can get the
lab(s) up to 20 DegC in one hour when it's 0 DegC outside it can do it
when it's 5 or 10 outside.

So, are you going to carry on running away or start wandering around
with a notebook and tape measure?


So I don;t really know what relivance window size has.

Of course you don't, like you don't have a clue about most of
anything. How do you think you consider the losses through any of the
different materials unless we know how much of each material there is?

Seriously, a child could work that out.

Prove it then.

OK, I get that you don't have the first clue about any of this but
rather than continuously arguing and trying to catch me (and others)
out (that will never happen), why don't you just get on with answering
the questions we have put to you and seeing if we can help you take it
further?

Until you do that you will still be part of the problem, not the
solution.

Cheers, T i m

On Thursday, 7 December 2017 13:27:45 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 7 Dec 2017 02:45:41 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

snip daves bs

If you can;t answer the original Q then don't reply.

are swing doors classed as barriers of some sort.?

What do you think? Can the heat move freely through the doors when
they are closed?

Not according to the fire regs, but the doors are mostly left open, UNLESS there is a lecture going on it that room which happens perhaps 2-4 times a week, or a meeting is there or theres too much noise(audio, drilling etc) coming from that area then we close the doors.

Or today when there's two seperate labs and they don't want the noise from one interferring with the noise from the other set, and this is student noise rather than any other type.




So, as I said previously, the presence of the swing doors may not
impact the calcs if the temperatures are roughly the same on both
side. The chances are that will be more likely when the doors are open
rather than closed.

what about the other two sets of swing doors, which go to unheated corridor areas ?
Studetns have to arrive and leave you know, they don;t just go from one lab to the other for 3-4 years.

There were no tools that were any use unless you can account for those variables.

And you can account for them by going 'worst case'.

To get a false result you mean.
What is the worst case then as far as temerature goes what would you use ?

You haven't a clue about any of this have you.

Did you use the worst case for radiators, what would you say is the worst case output for a 2KW radiator ?


You say John Rumm has given the tools if that is the case why canl;t you use those, can you at least explain that.

Yes, I can, very easily. No. The answer is 'no' because I don't have
the measurements and U values for the construction of your lab.

Neither do I. I'm not going to try measuring the lab using 1 metre rulers either.

And even if I did give you the measurements I doubt that'd help you as yuo;d still come up with excuses.
If you want to know how large the lab is use the video as a guide.

It takes me 21 strides do walk the lengh of lab 253 so about 15 metres from door to door, the width is about 16 strides so about 12 metres, I can walk up to the ceiling, but I;d say about 2.5 metres.

Now see if you can work it out then.

Of course you'll now come up with loads more excuses.





\You;re excuse is that yuor not going to help, isn;t it,

How many times have I told you that if you do the bit that only you
can do, 'we' might be able to help you.

So what do you need to know? the video is there, I doubt they had even built the building when they quoted for the heating as that was done from an older building.




in reality it means yuo can;t help,

In reality you are right. (see above).

snip more of daves bs


So what's the next of your excuses ?


Well Sherlock, if you are saying that is what one windows actually is
then size then that would be a start. Then we need to know if it is
single / double / triple glazed and we can make a stab at it's thermal
properties.

I don't know those properties other than it is triple glazed.

So you know it is triple glazed but can't find a way to work out how
big it is?

What do you mean by how big do you mean each frame or the entire installation.
The windows span the lengh of teh lab except the last meter, why they breezeblock the last one off I don't know and wasn't expecting them to.

Your next excuse will be how many frames and what wood and thic=kness are the frames.



Previously the windows were single galzed and I;ve no idea ofm the original design for calculating the heatign system ahad single glazed windows were even included in the original design or not.

Irrelevant to what you are trying to do now.


It;s relivant because during the time those single galzzed windows existed the heating system wasntl up to keeping the lab warm i.e above 20 unless it was in the summer, which wasnt; a lot of use as they studetns aren;t here for the majoroty of the summer.


The windows also havent been sealed yet and I don't know how much differnce that makes, I can hear the person in the next office NOT through the walls but through where the windows meet at the edges.

That would make a big difference ... and something you might have
mentioned sooner.

would it really make a difernce if so how much because the heaters were order BEFORE the windows were even installed.


I can't sort of predict how many students will come through the door,

It doesn't matter for the ball park figures.

I can;lt predict how often the builders will leave teh exteranl doors open or for how long during the day or night.

Presumably that won't be happening indefinably?

Construction is planned to finish around April although the foirst estimate for the lab was August, that why we weren;t originally too worried we were told that if teh lab was too noise we would be moved out, and the temeratire wouldn't be a problem as it was summer time and we wouldn;t need any heating.


As I've tried to expain there are too many variables of which I have no control overv and one of the biggest is the weather.

Understood ...

at last.

but you haven't even offered the information up for
those things you can measure. And as far as the weather goes, again
you calculate for the typical worst case. If the heaters can get the
lab(s) up to 20 DegC in one hour

But they can;t can they which is why I need to know how many I would need.
Today at 3:30pm it was about 20C which I think is fine, but the heaters have been on full since 8:45am, and this is one of the warmest days.

5 mins ago the contruction workers came over in their hi-viz and hoody tops saying we;ve heard it cold in the lab, but it doesn;tl feel that cold.
\Now why do you think they were sent over oon the warmest day in the last 2 weeks, why didn;t they come over when it was 13C at 9am and 15C at 5pm ?




So, are you going to carry on running away or start wandering around
with a notebook and tape measure?

Niether the lab manager is sending offical complients to managment.
But I know nothing much will happen.




Prove it then.

OK, I get that you don't have the first clue about any of this but
rather than continuously arguing and trying to catch me (and others)
out (that will never happen),

I'm not catching anyone out I'm trying to get you to understand the very basics in the real world.

If you can;t handle the real world then show me how to calculate what would be needed for a particualr size room about teh size of teh lab or any size YOU choose.
I don;t know what type of wood the frames are made of and I didnl;t know the properties of teh sort of plasterboard that covered the windows, adn I don't know the details regarding how much heat scafolding can have as shown in googlemaps.

On Thu, 7 Dec 2017 07:58:49 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

snip daves wittering

So, as I said previously, the presence of the swing doors may not
impact the calcs if the temperatures are roughly the same on both
side. The chances are that will be more likely when the doors are open
rather than closed.

what about the other two sets of swing doors, which go to unheated corridor areas ?

Then they will be more relevant.

snip waffle

There were no tools that were any use unless you can account for those variables.

And you can account for them by going 'worst case'.

To get a false result you mean.

To get an approximation of what is required, yes.

What is the worst case then as far as temerature goes what would you use ?

I have already given you examples.

You haven't a clue about any of this have you.

Idiot.

Did you use the worst case for radiators, what would you say is the worst case output for a 2KW radiator ?

WTF are you waffling on about now?


You say John Rumm has given the tools if that is the case why canl;t you use those, can you at least explain that.

Yes, I can, very easily. No. The answer is 'no' because I don't have
the measurements and U values for the construction of your lab.

Neither do I.

But *you* can find out eh?

I'm not going to try measuring the lab using 1 metre rulers either.

Why not, can't get past 10m without taking your socks off?

So, neither you nor the establishment have a tape measure (or could
get one)?

And even if I did give you the measurements I doubt that'd help you as yuo;d still come up with excuses.

Oh the irony (idiot).

If you want to know how large the lab is use the video as a guide.

Idiot.

It takes me 21 strides do walk the lengh of lab 253 so about 15 metres from door to door,

So, it that a real measurement disguised with you normal weird BS or
just another example of dave weirdness?

the width is about 16 strides so about 12 metres, I can walk up to the ceiling,

I'm surprised you can't, with all your hot air.

but I;d say about 2.5 metres.

Rather than 'saying', why not actually measure it?

Now see if you can work it out then.

Nope, can't.

Of course you'll now come up with loads more excuses.

Yes, like, are there no windows?
What is the construction of the walls?
What is the construction of the ceiling and floor?
How many doors and what size are they?

Only goes to show how little a clue you have about all this the fact
that you fail to supply all the required information, in spite of
having it explained to you several times.

snip

How many times have I told you that if you do the bit that only you
can do, 'we' might be able to help you.

So what do you need to know?

See above and the previous 1000 emails.

the video is there,

Irrelevant.

snip bs

So you know it is triple glazed but can't find a way to work out how
big it is?

What do you mean by how big do you mean each frame or the entire installation.

For these purposes the size of the actual glass or an average width of
glass and frame.

The windows span the lengh of teh lab except the last meter,

Ok.

why they breezeblock the last one off I don't know and wasn't expecting them to.

Could they see you from anywhere via that window?

Your next excuse will be how many frames and what wood and thic=kness are the frames.

How many windows (facing the outside) yes.

snip


The windows also havent been sealed yet and I don't know how much differnce that makes, I can hear the person in the next office NOT through the walls but through where the windows meet at the edges.

That would make a big difference ... and something you might have
mentioned sooner.

would it really make a difernce if so how much because the heaters were order BEFORE the windows were even installed.

Yes, because this is all to do with the heat loss from the building,,
*nothing* to do with heaters (yet)..

snip

I can;lt predict how often the builders will leave teh exteranl doors open or for how long during the day or night.

Presumably that won't be happening indefinably?

Construction is planned to finish around April although the foirst estimate for the lab was August, that why we weren;t originally too worried we were told that if teh lab was too noise we would be moved out, and the temeratire wouldn't be a problem as it was summer time and we wouldn;t need any heating.

Ok.


As I've tried to expain there are too many variables of which I have no control overv and one of the biggest is the weather.

Understood ...

at last.

Nope, it's always been the case (unless you actually are God, rather
than just thinking you are)?

but you haven't even offered the information up for
those things you can measure. And as far as the weather goes, again
you calculate for the typical worst case. If the heaters can get the
lab(s) up to 20 DegC in one hour

But they can;t can they which is why I need to know how many I would need.

Step 1. Work out how much heat the building loses.

Today at 3:30pm it was about 20C which I think is fine,

I would say so.

but the heaters have been on full since 8:45am, and this is one of the warmest days.

Full input setting but possibly not on their highest output.

snip

So, are you going to carry on running away or start wandering around
with a notebook and tape measure?

Niether the lab manager is sending offical complients to managment.

About your incompetence and lack of effort?

But I know nothing much will happen.

Shame. ;-(

snip

If you can;t handle the real world

I can ...

then show me how to calculate what would be needed for a particualr size room about teh size of teh lab or any size YOU choose.

http://tippenergy.ie/wp-content/uplo...-heat-loss.pdf

http://www.open.edu/openlearn/nature...-section-2.4.1

Loads of examples there ... but everything requires the dimensions and
materials (as a starter).

I don;t know what type of wood the frames are made of

Irrelevant, other than they are wood.

and I didnl;t know the properties of teh sort of plasterboard that covered the windows,

Irrelevant.

adn I don't know the details regarding how much heat scafolding can have as shown in googlemaps.

Idiot.

Just stop being a tw*t and start by measuring all the relevant stuff
and listing their general construction (solid brick,cavity wall,
block, timber frame etc), You should have seen most of this as they
were replacing the windows.

Cheers, T i m

On 07/12/2017 20:18, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 7 Dec 2017 07:58:49 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

snip daves wittering

So, as I said previously, the presence of the swing doors may not
impact the calcs if the temperatures are roughly the same on both
side. The chances are that will be more likely when the doors are open
rather than closed.

what about the other two sets of swing doors, which go to unheated corridor areas ?

Then they will be more relevant.

snip waffle

Indeed if they are open the room will lose the hot air at around head
height as it spills out and rises up on the wrong side of the door.

Can an engineering department really be so clueless about basic physics?

They deserve to suffer from frostbite in the coming winter!

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On Thursday, 7 December 2017 20:18:01 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 7 Dec 2017 07:58:49 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

snip daves wittering

So, as I said previously, the presence of the swing doors may not
impact the calcs if the temperatures are roughly the same on both
side. The chances are that will be more likely when the doors are open
rather than closed.

what about the other two sets of swing doors, which go to unheated corridor areas ?

Then they will be more relevant.

That's what I thought too.


snip waffle

There were no tools that were any use unless you can account for those variables.

And you can account for them by going 'worst case'.

To get a false result you mean.

To get an approximation of what is required, yes.

So what is the result then.





Did you use the worst case for radiators, what would you say is the worst case output for a 2KW radiator ?

WTF are you waffling on about now?

You really don't have a clue do you.



You say John Rumm has given the tools if that is the case why canl;t you use those, can you at least explain that.

Yes, I can, very easily. No. The answer is 'no' because I don't have
the measurements and U values for the construction of your lab.

Neither do I.

But *you* can find out eh?

Not for construction I can't, no more so that yuo can get the construction detaila for grenfell tower or any other building.
I can;t get the construction details for any building.
In fact I've just had two workman here asking me why they is a '40' symbol, next to a fuse box in my room. I had to tell them I donlt know and that I havent; got a fuse box in my room, I appologised and said I must have lost it, and the laughted and left. If the builders and theor company DON'T have the correct constructionn details then how am I suppse to aquire them. ?

Why do you think I should have or even need construction details. It has nothing to do with me.





I'm not going to try measuring the lab using 1 metre rulers either.

Why not, can't get past 10m without taking your socks off?

Why would I need to take my socks off. ?
Are you so stupid yuo can't estimate the size of a room from a picture.




So, neither you nor the establishment have a tape measure (or could
get one)?

And even if I did give you the measurements I doubt that'd help you as yuo;d still come up with excuses.

Oh the irony (idiot).

I've given you the dimentions so what is your next excuse ?



It takes me 21 strides do walk the lengh of lab 253 so about 15 metres from door to door,

So, it that a real measurement disguised with you normal weird BS or
just another example of dave weirdness?

So another excuse is it.

The lab is 15 metres long.
The lab is 12 metres long.
It is 3 metres high.

So what excuses do you have left ?





Now see if you can work it out then.

Nope, can't.

I knew that all along.



Of course you'll now come up with loads more excuses.

Yes, like, are there no windows?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/35ntzcnna5...1940s.jpg?dl=0

see windows.
In the vide you can so NO windows as they were replaced with whatever builders use to tempally cover up such gaps in windows.


What is the construction of the walls?

Reinforced concrete like a lot of building of the 1950s-60s.

What is the construction of the ceiling and floor?

same I assume going by the noise created.



How many doors and what size are they?

See all this info is avaible in the video.




Only goes to show how little a clue you have about all this the fact
that you fail to supply all the required information, in spite of
having it explained to you several times.

No on eworking in the premisies needs to kn ow such things you ****ing idiot.

On Thursday, 7 December 2017 20:26:23 UTC, Martin Brown wrote:
On 07/12/2017 20:18, T i m wrote:


what about the other two sets of swing doors, which go to unheated corridor areas ?

Then they will be more relevant.

snip waffle

Indeed if they are open the room will lose the hot air at around head
height as it spills out and rises up on the wrong side of the door.

Can an engineering department really be so clueless about basic physics?

Yes they can, as this is the electric engineering building we have **** all idea about heating even our head professor doesn't know about such thigs.

Do you think the queen knows about engineering in buck palace.


They deserve to suffer from frostbite in the coming winter!

It's not me that will suffer it;s the students, and if tehy can;t work out teh heating requitrements of a building then they should have applied to come here should they.

if surgeons don't understand how their opperating theatres are constructed then they should be surgeons should they.
if david attenboough doesn't understand the construction details of the submerables he is in does that make him stupid too.

we have hve www.hutton-group.co.uk doing the work, or do yuo expect the lectures to put up the scaffolding too.

You have to be a reazk ****ing idiot if you believe it's the job of teh academics or admin staff to put up scaffolding.

For teh last few months higgins has sent us disruption details for the coming week.

Here's todays.
First fix mechanical and electrical to basement east, workshop and
Aero lab ground and first and roof
Lay blocks to old window openings 4th and risers.
Dri-line walls to ground, first, and 4th floors.
Plaster walls and make good all areas
Fit single ply membrane to aero lab
Strike and adjust scaffold
Second fix carpentry to G25
Erect steels to stair 7
Second fix mechanical and electrical to G25
Erect curtain walling including glass
Erect LEV to G25
Paint G25
Make good ceilings in Aero lab ground floor
Tape and joint ceilings.
Remove windows and fix scaffold ties back to columns all floors to tower

On Fri, 8 Dec 2017 03:22:18 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

snip

There were no tools that were any use unless you can account for those variables.

And you can account for them by going 'worst case'.

To get a false result you mean.

To get an approximation of what is required, yes.

So what is the result then.

I'll re-word that *again* for you:

'Then you can calculate the result'.

If you just want a number then it might as well be 42.

The result isn't something you pluck out of the air, it's something
you calculate using the information available using and the science
and maths that accompany such.



Did you use the worst case for radiators, what would you say is the worst case output for a 2KW radiator ?

WTF are you waffling on about now?

You really don't have a clue do you.

Re what you are waffling about? No, or I wouldn't have asked.



You say John Rumm has given the tools if that is the case why canl;t you use those, can you at least explain that.

Yes, I can, very easily. No. The answer is 'no' because I don't have
the measurements and U values for the construction of your lab.

Neither do I.

But *you* can find out eh?

Not for construction I can't,

Why not? Does it look like brick on the outside? Where there has been
any damage to the inside does it look like breeze blocks or
plasterboard etc?

no more so that yuo can get the construction detaila for grenfell tower or any other building.

No more that you could get you mean? I might have a chance, given
reasonable access and under the same conditions your labs are
currently under.

snip

If the builders and their company DON'T have the correct constructionn details then how am I suppse to aquire them. ?

And you have asked about the fabric of the building have you (not
electrical or other stuff because they are builders not electricians).

Why do you think I should have

I don't.

or even need construction details.

To work out the answer to your question of 'How many radiators'.

It has nothing to do with me.

It seems it is since you posted about the heaters here.

I'm not going to try measuring the lab using 1 metre rulers either.

Why not, can't get past 10m without taking your socks off?

Why would I need to take my socks off. ?

FFS! To count past ten you thicko!

Are you so stupid yuo can't estimate the size of a room from a picture.

Yes and not only that, it's stupid to expect any one to do so when you
are in there yourself. Are you not willing to do anything yourself,
apart from bleat and cry?


So, neither you nor the establishment have a tape measure (or could
get one)?

And even if I did give you the measurements I doubt that'd help you as yuo;d still come up with excuses.

Oh the irony (idiot).

I've given you the dimentions so what is your next excuse ?

You have given me rough dimensions of the lab, that's it.


It takes me 21 strides do walk the lengh of lab 253 so about 15 metres from door to door,

So, it that a real measurement disguised with you normal weird BS or
just another example of dave weirdness?

So another excuse is it.

The lab is 15 metres long.
The lab is 12 metres long.
It is 3 metres high.

So what excuses do you have left ?

Doors, windows, fabric, temperature requirements ...



Now see if you can work it out then.

Nope, can't.

I knew that all along.

You knew *nothing* 'all along' and you still know the same!


Of course you'll now come up with loads more excuses.

Yes, like, are there no windows?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/35ntzcnna5...1940s.jpg?dl=0

see windows.

Oh yes, windows! Who would have thought ... rolls eyes

Now, what size are they ... or if the wall is mostly window, what
percentage of the wall is window would you say?

In the vide you can so NO windows as they were replaced with whatever builders use to tempally cover up such gaps in windows.

Well we aren't really interested in anything that is temporary,
especially if it isn't fully sealed etc.


What is the construction of the walls?

Reinforced concrete like a lot of building of the 1950s-60s.

Ok, we are getting there ... but is it solid though to the inside or
is the inside lined with something (like plasterboard on a studwork of
some sort). If you knock on the inside of a plain bit of outside wall,
does it sound hollow or solid and if you look at the edge of the outer
wall (say at a window), how thick does it look?

What is the construction of the ceiling and floor?

same I assume going by the noise created.

Ok.



How many doors and what size are they?

See all this info is avaible in the video.

Nope, that gives me no idea of the sizes of the doors, just measure
them ffs.


Only goes to show how little a clue you have about all this the fact
that you fail to supply all the required information, in spite of
having it explained to you several times.

No on eworking in the premisies needs to kn ow such things you ****ing idiot.

You do, if you want to answer your own question.

How many teachers do you think know the construction details of teh schools and classrooms they work in.

Irrelevant.

How many tube drivers know the construction details of teh platforms and tunnels they use.

Irrelevant (although the chances are they might know more about it
than you do of your environment).

You an idiot for thinking that I should know these details.

And you are an idiot for thinking I would think you would *know* any
of these details. The task is for you to *find out*.

Do you think MPs know the construction details of the houses of parliament ?

Grow up.

snip

They are apparently argon filled.

So, slowly we are getting there ...


why they breezeblock the last one off I don't know and wasn't expecting them to.

Could they see you from anywhere via that window?

What the **** are you talking about.

OMG, you are so s l o w ... It was in case they didn't want to watch
you stumbling about in your confusion all the time! ;-)

As I am on the 2nd floor I don't think any student is tall enough unless they use a drone.

Quite possible these days (but see above).

As studetns aren't allowed on the roof of the next building I don;t see how ANYONE other than the builders and maintaince will be abnle to see in.

;-)

And the windows were all coated withb a gold film and NO ONE coulds see in.

So you throw that one in at the end do you, like it's the least
important.

What differnce does this make anyway ?

None. It was a joke.


Your next excuse will be how many frames and what wood and thic=kness are the frames.

How many windows (facing the outside) yes.

what do you mean by facing outwards ?

Not going into another room or internal area of the same temperature.

If you arnelt going to lok at pictures

I did, didn't really help.

how will I describe the number of the windowws are you asking for

Right and actual question at last.

Take the height and with of the glass of one frame on one wall and
assuming they are roughly the same size, work out the total area of
glass for 'that wall'. Then subtract that from the already calculated
for that wall and that should give you the area of wall (and one u
value) and the area of glass (and u value) for that wall. You
basically do the same for each of the walls (and ceilings / floors
etc), along with the temperature differential for each (max inside
temp over minimum outside temp) and add them all up.

snip

would it really make a difernce if so how much because the heaters were order BEFORE the windows were even installed.

Yes, because this is all to do with the heat loss from the building,,
*nothing* to do with heaters (yet)..

So you claim to know hiow to do these calcualtions so do them.

'Do I claim', no, I have never 'claimed' as I've never actually tried
but I don't see any reason why I couldn't (certainly to the level we
are considering here) and if I couldn't I'm sure others here would
(which is all I suggested in the first place). The point is, no others
are going to bother with you, till you have bothered yourself yo come
up with a decent list of stuff.

eg, You say the lab is 15m long by 3m high and if one wall was
therefore 15 x 3 that would equal 45 sq/m and if that was solid
concrete that would have a u value of (guess, without more detail), .4
then it would be:

http://www.combustionresearch.com/U-...materials.html


So very simply for just one wall

Ht = A U (ti - to)

where

Ht = transmission heat loss (W)

A = area of exposed surface (m2)

U = overall heat transmission coefficient (W/m2K)

ti = inside air temperature (oC)

to= outside air temperature (oC)

So, Ht would be for that plain wall = 45 x .5 x (20 - 0) = 450 (W/hr)?
(Seems a bit low to me)?

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/h...ion-d_748.html
http://www.sensiblehouse.org/nrg_heatloss.htm

snip

So how can I possible predict what heating would be required without knowing the details

Exactly, you can't. But you can get a *good idea* with some details,
even if they aren't precise.

I didn't know what sort of windows what size or what type until they had been installed I didnlt even know they had been istalled until; they took down the hording that covered the gaps where the windows were.

And now you do ... and doing any calcs before that would be pretty
pointless other than for that specific situation.

snip

Nope, it's always been the case (unless you actually are God, rather
than just thinking you are)?

But you claim I should know these things.

Nope ... I have suggested there was no reason you couldn't find out.


Step 1. Work out how much heat the building loses.

I;ve no idea how to work that out

We have given you loafs of ideas how you do that. What you want is us
to do it for you but we can't because we have no tangible information.

and I doubt yuo do either you'll just come out with your usual BS.

Looks like I might stand a better chance than you eh.

snip

Full input setting but possibly not on their highest output.

I've no idea what their highest output is do you ?

Yes, less than could be possible when on setting III and could be more
than the heat output on setting III when on setting II.


Tape measure, notepad, pencil, common sense ....

Wall 1.
15 x 3 m = 45 sq meter (u value for solid concrete x mm thick)
6 x windows 2.5 x 1.5m = 22.5m (u value for triple glazed glass)

Calculate the total thermal value for that wall.

Work that against the desired internal temperature for the worst
external temperature and that will give you the energy required to
bring the inside of that wall up to your desired temperature / hour.

You then add in the values calculated for the other (3?) walls, floor
and ceiling and there you have it.

Cheers, T i m

On 08/12/2017 11:36, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 7 December 2017 20:26:23 UTC, Martin Brown wrote:
On 07/12/2017 20:18, T i m wrote:


what about the other two sets of swing doors, which go to
unheated corridor areas ?

Then they will be more relevant.

snip waffle

Indeed if they are open the room will lose the hot air at around
head height as it spills out and rises up on the wrong side of the
door.

Can an engineering department really be so clueless about basic
physics?

Yes they can, as this is the electric engineering building we have
**** all idea about heating even our head professor doesn't know
about such thigs.

You have already demonstrated conclusively that Ohm's law is beyond you.
God help the students in this frozen wasteland of "engineering".

They deserve to suffer from frostbite in the coming winter!

It's not me that will suffer it;s the students, and if tehy can;t
work out teh heating requitrements of a building then they should
have applied to come here should they.

If a bunch of electrical engineers cannot between them comprehend how to
compute the heat output of a resistive electric heater then quite
frankly it is time to give up. This is very basic physics/electronics.

You should not be allowed to try and teach any students at all.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On Friday, 8 December 2017 14:00:47 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 8 Dec 2017 03:22:18 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

snip

There were no tools that were any use unless you can account for those variables.

And you can account for them by going 'worst case'.

To get a false result you mean.

To get an approximation of what is required, yes.

So what is the result then.

I'll re-word that *again* for you:

'Then you can calculate the result'.

If you just want a number then it might as well be 42.

So 42 it is then.


The result isn't something you pluck out of the air, it's something
you calculate using the information available using and the science
and maths that accompany such.

No **** sherlock.




You say John Rumm has given the tools if that is the case why canl;t you use those, can you at least explain that.

Yes, I can, very easily. No. The answer is 'no' because I don't have
the measurements and U values for the construction of your lab.

Neither do I.

But *you* can find out eh?

Not for construction I can't,

Why not? Does it look like brick on the outside? Where there has been
any damage to the inside does it look like breeze blocks or
plasterboard etc?

I dodn;t****ing know it;s covered in scaffolding that is sheted over and they are putting cladding on it anyway.
They hae ripped all the old stuff off with the view to replacing it all.

Look at the ****ing picture if yuo want to know.









no more so that yuo can get the construction detaila for grenfell tower or any other building.

No more that you could get you mean? I might have a chance, given
reasonable access and under the same conditions your labs are
currently under.

then do it.



And you have asked about the fabric of the building have you (not
electrical or other stuff because they are builders not electricians).

Why do you think I should have

I don't.

It has nothing to do with me. All building work come under teh estates department NOT me.
Are yuo realy that stupid that you think that the secaretires in the offices know the building regulations too.

You're tottaly clueless aren't you.


or even need construction details.

To work out the answer to your question of 'How many radiators'.

So do it then.




It has nothing to do with me.

It seems it is since you posted about the heaters here.

All I wanted to know was what power a 2KW heater delivers but you can't even get that right saying it's 1300W.

I don't give a **** about the building, I don;t own in I'm not in charge of it.
Perjhps instead yuo should contact the principles of he college. Some earn close to 1/2 million a year if they don't know what makes you think a technicain would know.


I'm not going to try measuring the lab using 1 metre rulers either.

Why not, can't get past 10m without taking your socks off?

Why would I need to take my socks off. ?

FFS! To count past ten you thicko!

I don;t need to do that to count pased 10 I;ve already told you what the lengh width and hieght is can;t yuo work out it out from those figures.
I've linked to pictures from inside and outside but you still havent; a clue have you.





You have given me rough dimensions of the lab, that's it.

Then ****ing well use them.
Or do you really need measurements made with a micrometer ?


I know now you;re just trolling.


So another excuse is it.

The lab is 15 metres long.
The lab is 12 metres long.
It is 3 metres high.

So what excuses do you have left ?

Doors, windows, fabric, temperature requirements ...

You thick ****er.
The dorods are those that have been installed and on video.
windows well I dhad no idea what sort of windows were to be installed, so it wouuld be difficult, fabric what ficuking fabric .
As for temerature I just want the legal limit would be OK by me.
So look up what that is unless uo;re too stupid to do that and yuo need me to hold yuor hand.




https://www.dropbox.com/s/35ntzcnna5...1940s.jpg?dl=0

see windows.

Oh yes, windows! Who would have thought ... rolls eyes


So tell me about these windows.


Now, what size are they ...

Look at the ****ing pictures.



Well we aren't really interested in anything that is temporary,
especially if it isn't fully sealed etc.

FFS of course we are.
That's the whole point you dumb arse.
While the building work is going on and the heating system refurbished, rebuilt or started again from scratch we need heating in the lab.

As I said before this was meant to be finshed completed ended in August !.

Once the building work has finshed the new heating system once installed will be turned on and put into use then the tempory heating in the lab will go into storeage until the next time an earea is refurbished. Or when the heating system fails.
But I'm hopping like the new graduate centre that the corridors are above 12C and the labs and classrooms are at least 16C preferable 20C, I;d lioke to be able to control the lab temeratures too, previousl;y thre was NO thermostates and NOP controls for the labs, the only 'control' was whether to have the windows open or close and whether or not to have heaters OR fans on.


Do you know those doing the work have temporey lighting and they connect their 110V equipment via their isolating step down transformers to the mains in this building 110V is a tempory set up too just like the heating is.




What is the construction of the walls?

Reinforced concrete like a lot of building of the 1950s-60s.

Ok, we are getting there ... but is it solid though to the inside or
is the inside lined with something (like plasterboard on a studwork of
some sort). If you knock on the inside of a plain bit of outside wall,
does it sound hollow or solid and if you look at the edge of the outer
wall (say at a window), how thick does it look?

I don't know and I don't care. I'm two floors up.
It has nothing to do with me, how many more times do you need telling.

If you want to know look at the ****ing pictures.
But you're too stupid to do that even

A pictue is worth a thousand words rememeber.



What is the construction of the ceiling and floor?

same I assume going by the noise created.

Ok.



How many doors and what size are they?

See all this info is avaible in the video.

Nope, that gives me no idea of the sizes of the doors, just measure
them ffs.

They are standard door size, nothig specail about them.
Typical for all schools colleges as the regualtions state they should be.

Apparently they are fire doors now whether that is a differnt spec from any other door I don't know.




Only goes to show how little a clue you have about all this the fact
that you fail to supply all the required information, in spite of
having it explained to you several times.

No on eworking in the premisies needs to kn ow such things you ****ing idiot.

You do, if you want to answer your own question.

It has NOTHING to do with my question.
Look at the subject title !

why does door size matter to how much a 2KW heater

uk.d-i-y ۼ
So how much power does an oil filled radiator actually use.


Can you explain why shops selling this doesn;t have door sizes listed.


How many teachers do you think know the construction details of teh schools and classrooms they work in.

Irrelevant.

Very relivant.

On Friday, 8 December 2017 14:51:37 UTC, Martin Brown wrote:
On 08/12/2017 11:36, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 7 December 2017 20:26:23 UTC, Martin Brown wrote:
On 07/12/2017 20:18, T i m wrote:


what about the other two sets of swing doors, which go to
unheated corridor areas ?

Then they will be more relevant.

snip waffle

Indeed if they are open the room will lose the hot air at around
head height as it spills out and rises up on the wrong side of the
door.

Can an engineering department really be so clueless about basic
physics?

Yes they can, as this is the electric engineering building we have
**** all idea about heating even our head professor doesn't know
about such thigs.

You have already demonstrated conclusively that Ohm's law is beyond you.
God help the students in this frozen wasteland of "engineering".

**** off idiot I've proved it beyond your level of understanding,


If a bunch of electrical engineers cannot between them comprehend how to
compute the heat output of a resistive electric heater then quite
frankly it is time to give up. This is very basic physics/electronics.

You should not be allowed to try and teach any students at all.

yes yuo idiot I agree and I DO NOT teach.
I no more teach studetns than a bus triver teaches his passengers how to drive.
The lectures are paid to lecture, the Teaching Assistants and demostartors are employed to teach.
Technicians are NOT allowed to teach undergrads.


If you don't understand this maybe you should read this.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...-lecturers-pay


I'm betting you'll fail to understand that too.

On Fri, 8 Dec 2017 07:48:47 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

snip

If you just want a number then it might as well be 42.

So 42 it is then.

Cool. I'm glad that settled.


The result isn't something you pluck out of the air, it's something
you calculate using the information available using and the science
and maths that accompany such.

No **** sherlock.

Yes **** Sherlock, that's why I told you. There is no magic answer.

snip

Why not? Does it look like brick on the outside? Where there has been
any damage to the inside does it look like breeze blocks or
plasterboard etc?

I dodn;t****ing know it;s covered in scaffolding that is sheted over and they are putting cladding on it anyway.
They hae ripped all the old stuff off with the view to replacing it all.

Look at the ****ing picture if yuo want to know.



I don't 'want to know', you need to know if you want to answer your
own question.


no more so that yuo can get the construction detaila for grenfell tower or any other building.

No more that you could get you mean? I might have a chance, given
reasonable access and under the same conditions your labs are
currently under.

then do it.

Put the kettle on ...

And you have asked about the fabric of the building have you (not
electrical or other stuff because they are builders not electricians).

Why do you think I should have

I don't.

It has nothing to do with me.

Then why ask 'How many heaters do I need' here?

All building work come under teh estates department NOT me.

No **** Sherlock?

Are yuo realy that stupid that you think that the secaretires in the offices know the building regulations too.

Nope. Are you so stupid that you would ask that question. Doh!

You're tottaly clueless aren't you.

It doesn't look like it so far, no.


or even need construction details.

To work out the answer to your question of 'How many radiators'.

So do it then.

So do it then. Get the measurements.


It has nothing to do with me.

It seems it is since you posted about the heaters here.

All I wanted to know was what power a 2KW heater delivers but you can't even get that right saying it's 1300W.

You don't know that it's not right though do you? You told us the
thing(s) drop back to 700W after 2 hours (then changed it to 20 mins)
and when your power supply is struggling to provide much over 200V
what wattage to YOU think they are giving out? 2kW because that's what
it says on the label?

I don't give a **** about the building, I don;t own in I'm not in charge of it.

No, I guess that much!

Perjhps instead yuo should contact the principles of he college.

Why should I do it? Ok, I know I did contact CPC Tech Support for you
but that was a technical / product question.

Some earn close to 1/2 million a year if they don't know what makes you think a technicain would know.

No, I am very sure this particular technician wouldn't know (anything)
but why would I assume they would either? However, I bet they stand a
better chance of working it out than you?

I'm not going to try measuring the lab using 1 metre rulers either.

Why not, can't get past 10m without taking your socks off?

Why would I need to take my socks off. ?

FFS! To count past ten you thicko!

I don;t need to do that to count pased 10

Erm, didn't you say the lab was 15m long(ish)? 15 is greater than 10
you know?

I;ve already told you what the lengh width and hieght is can;t yuo work out it out from those figures.

No. It's impossible. I've told you.

I've linked to pictures from inside and outside but you still havent; a clue have you.

Nope, I still haven't ... and ironically, you are actually there and
have even less!


You have given me rough dimensions of the lab, that's it.

Then ****ing well use them.

I have considered them., can't really use them till we get some more
info.

Or do you really need measurements made with a micrometer ?

With a tape measure graduated in some standard unit would be nice, not
just 'crazy daves' paces!


I know now you;re just trolling.

Yeah, that would be right eh ...


So another excuse is it.

The lab is 15 metres long.
The lab is 12 metres long.
It is 3 metres high.

So what excuses do you have left ?

Doors, windows, fabric, temperature requirements ...

You thick ****er.

Ok ...

The dorods are those that have been installed and on video.

Sorry, do you think I'm Robocop or Iron Man or something and have
laser rangefinding and measurement in my optics system? Do you realise
just how childish and stupid everything you say is?

windows well I dhad no idea what sort of windows were to be installed,

Thanks for telling us the windows weren't installed at the beginning.

so it wouuld be difficult,

Not to tell us they were just boarded up it wouldn't.

fabric what ficuking fabric .

Another term that seems to have whooshed you that is commonly used.
'The fabric of the building.

https://www.new-learn.info/packages/...nts/index.html

As for temerature I just want the legal limit would be OK by me.

Ok, well put that in the formula then.

So look up what that is unless uo;re too stupid to do that and yuo need me to hold yuor hand.

You hold my hand to help you??


Oh yes, windows! Who would have thought ... rolls eyes


So tell me about these windows.

Well, I think they are lovely. Thy look like Crittal metal frame
design and offer a lovely unobstructed view of the world outside. Ok?


Now, what size are they ...

Look at the ****ing pictures.

Daft dave. "I'd like to buy some shoes please"
Shoe shopkeeper. "Sure, what size sir?"
Daft dave: "The same f'ing size I've got on now, can't you see and
work it out yourself you f'ing idiot."





Well we aren't really interested in anything that is temporary,
especially if it isn't fully sealed etc.

FFS of course we are.

We are?

That's the whole point you dumb arse.

It is?

While the building work is going on and the heating system refurbished, rebuilt or started again from scratch we need heating in the lab.

Oh, so this is just *temporary heating*.

As I said before this was meant to be finshed completed ended in August !.

And it wasn't was it ... and isn't going to be finished any time soon.
So much for temporary solution. So, what are the calcs?

Once the building work has finshed the new heating system once installed will be turned on and put into use then the tempory heating in the lab will go into storeage until the next time an earea is refurbished.

Promise you won't ask about it here again?

Or when the heating system fails.

And will you have done the calcs by then?

But I'm hopping like the new graduate centre that the corridors are above 12C and the labs and classrooms are at least 16C preferable 20C, I;d lioke to be able to control the lab temeratures too,

And you think they will let you?

previousl;y thre was NO thermostates and NOP controls for the labs, the only 'control' was whether to have the windows open or close and whether or not to have heaters OR fans on.

And what did you choose? Did you choose fans on, windows open or fans
off, windows closed?


Do you know those doing the work have temporey lighting and they connect their 110V equipment via their isolating step down transformers to the mains in this building 110V is a tempory set up too just like the heating is.

No, I didn't. Should I have seen that from here with my Robocop eyes?

What is the construction of the walls?

Reinforced concrete like a lot of building of the 1950s-60s.

Ok, we are getting there ... but is it solid though to the inside or
is the inside lined with something (like plasterboard on a studwork of
some sort). If you knock on the inside of a plain bit of outside wall,
does it sound hollow or solid and if you look at the edge of the outer
wall (say at a window), how thick does it look?

I don't know and I don't care. I'm two floors up.

I'd say you were *way* higher than that!

It has nothing to do with me, how many more times do you need telling.

42?

If you want to know look at the ****ing pictures.

And they are lovely pictures mate, thanks for sharing.

But you're too stupid to do that even

No, I am that stupid ... I looked at your pictures.

A pictue is worth a thousand words rememeber.

Some simple measurements would be nice!

They are standard door size, nothig specail about them.
Typical for all schools colleges as the regualtions state they should be.

Ok, that's a start ... however, is it *really* that difficult for you
to put a tape measure over them? Why would I bother to look up or
measure such things *for you*?

Apparently they are fire doors now whether that is a differnt spec from any other door I don't know.

They are likely to be better insulated and sealed.

snip

You do, if you want to answer your own question.

It has NOTHING to do with my question.
Look at the subject title !

So the thread has stayed on topic has it?

why does door size matter to how much a 2KW heater

For reason you would never be able to comprehend my friend.

uk.d-i-y ›
So how much power does an oil filled radiator actually use.

Daft dave: "So if a heater is left on in the III position and the
thermostat fully clockwise in it's maximum position what electrical
power will the heater use and how much will it cost to leave it on
from 9-5."

And

"What temperature would you expect say the half way up the fin should
be."

and

"so how would you calculate how many heaters would be needed if the
heaters you brought can only dissipate the stated heat for about 2
hours then switch down to a 1/3 of their rated value ?"

All your questions mate ...


Can you explain why shops selling this doesn;t have door sizes listed.

No (partly because I can't understand the question).

Anyway, you seem intent on carrying on in blissful ignorance so I
think I should leave you to get on with it.

snip

Cheers, T i m

On Friday, 8 December 2017 16:48:43 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 8 Dec 2017 07:48:47 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

snip

If you just want a number then it might as well be 42.

So 42 it is then.

Cool. I'm glad that settled.

Yep a number pulled form thin air No meaning what so ever so don;t try top find one. Douglas adams wasnt; trying to be clever and those that think they are because they say 42 are WRONG it has no meaning, so secret code at base 13 or anything else.


The result isn't something you pluck out of the air, it's something
you calculate using the information available using and the science
and maths that accompany such.

No **** sherlock.

Yes **** Sherlock, that's why I told you. There is no magic answer.

So how would you work it out then if there's no answer.

Lets see what genious formula you come up with.



And you have asked about the fabric of the building have you (not
electrical or other stuff because they are builders not electricians).

Why do you think I should have

I don't.

It has nothing to do with me.

Then why ask 'How many heaters do I need' here?

Where did I ask that

read the Fing subject line stop invebnting your own.




You're tottaly clueless aren't you.

It doesn't look like it so far, no.

Oh yes it does.

On Friday, 8 December 2017 17:06:00 UTC, whisky-dave wrote:
On Friday, 8 December 2017 16:48:43 UTC, T i m wrote:

We've just been given 12 timers for our rads so that they can come on at 7am and to switch off at 5pm. But as we have 18 rads I'm not sure why they only sent 12 timers.
So things are looking up in a downwards sort of direction.