On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 9:02:57 PM UTC-4, Arlen Holder wrote:
On 14 Aug 2018 16:01:59 GMT, dpb wrote:

Well, there's _always_ voltage at the switch; the only question is does
it close and are the contacts any good to get to the other side...

It's pretty clear now that the two outside (black) wires are the two 120VAC
phases coming in, and the two inside (blue) wires are the two phases going
into the motor.

Uh oh, I expect you'll be hearing from Fretwell about calling them phases, that's supposed to be verboten. Saying two phases is pure heresy. Where were you when we were having that long electrical engineering discussion about what 240/120 service really is in the other thread?





http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1169657flow04.jpg

Well, did you not check for 240V _across_ the two blacks??? One would
presume nobody's moved anything and got both on the same phase, but...

Yeah. 118VAC RMS on each to the green ground when the motor is running and
236VAC RMS to each other when the motor is running, as measured on my DMM..

Interestingly, I originally checked each black incoming phase to the steel
water pipe expecting that to be grounded - but it wasn't all that good as
the voltage was around 20 volts so I used the green ground instead.

Sure, just take a screwdriver with non-conductive handle and push down
to close the contacts...let go and it'll reopen if pressure cutoff or
run 'til builds pressure if drops while closed.

Something weird happened, but wasn't repeatable, but it could be the
pressure built up.

a. I turned the circuit breaker back on
b. The motor ran
c. I checked all the voltages (which were as expected)
d. With a stick I pulled the contacts open
e. Obviously the motor stopped
f. But when I let go with the stick, I expected the contact to slam back
g. They didn't. They stayed open. Huh?
h. I pushed them closed, expecting them to stay closed
i. They didn't. They opened when I let go of pressure.
j. Huh?

What I'm "thinking" (but need to test) is that there is an electromagnet
which keeps the contacts closed (something kept them closed in step (b)
above. Maybe it was just the lack of pressure though, and not an
electromagnet.

Contacts pushed open:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4628253flow06.jpg
Contacts pushed closed:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1733078flow07.jpg contacts closed

Anyway, I'll have to test again as there seems to be three states:
a. Contacts automatically closed and they stay closed
b. Contacts pushed open and they stay open
c. Contacts pushed closed but they won't stay closed

It could depend on the pressure though... but "something" keeps the
contacts closed which didn't do it once I opened them manually.

On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 9:16:48 PM UTC-4, Arlen Holder wrote:
On 14 Aug 2018 17:45:37 GMT, in alt.home.repair you wrote:

It doesn't even needs must be a jet pump altho if can find one of same
form factor to fit the existing plumbing makes swap-out simpler.

I'm not sure what you're saying there as your edits got garbled (it happens
to all of us), but I do AGREE that buying a motor as a spare is a good idea
given that (a) repair costs more than a motor, and (b) with the pump there
is no water pressure.

Plus, it's always handy to have an extra 1HP motor around to use as a disk
sander or whatever.

The problem of course is matching what is needed to fit nicely.
a. 1 HP (SF 1.4) is a given, as is 115/230VAC & 3450 RPM & Frame 56C.
b. The "jet pump" part seems to be in the "cast iron" head.

BTW, I realized that the model number is actually SHORTER than I posted,
because they mix the model and serial number together, it seems.

The model number seems to be: 5KC39QN
https://duckduckgo.com/?&q=5KC39QN+motor&ia=web

I'm still confused about this "jet pump" part of the spec though.

I need to learn more about this "jet pump" part because I think if I just
buy a motor, it's not a "jet pump motor" but just a "motor". The "jet pump"
part seems to be in that cast-iron head - which would likely stay since it
has all the pipes connected to it.

Can I just buy "any old" booster-pump motor that fits those basic specs?
Like, for example, this one?
https://www.sustainablesupply.com/to...rs/pump-motors

I said if it is the pump, you should probably be looking for a whole pump, not a motor. DPB said it doesn't have to be a jet pump either, which I agree with.

On 8/14/2018 8:02 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
....

It could depend on the pressure though... but "something" keeps the
contacts closed which didn't do it once I opened them manually.

Of course it depends on the pressure...looks like it ran just long
enough to get above the cut-in point. Remember, it doesn't pull in
until it gets _below_ the setpoint; soon as it's above it'll stay open
until it gets below again even if it hasn't gotten to cut-out. All it
takes is _just_ above and as far as the switch is concerned it's as good
as "stop".

And, yes, I'm sure there's an electromechanical assist in there so the
contacts will "make" and "break" solidly, not drift in and out solely on
the spring compression...

--

On 8/14/2018 8:16 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
On 14 Aug 2018 17:45:37 GMT, in alt.home.repair you wrote:

It doesn't even needs must be a jet pump altho if can find one of same
form factor to fit the existing plumbing makes swap-out simpler.

I'm not sure what you're saying there as your edits got garbled (it happens
to all of us), but I do AGREE that buying a motor as a spare is a good idea
given that (a) repair costs more than a motor, and (b) with the pump there
is no water pressure.

Wasn't garbled at all; says exactly what I wrote and meant -- the
replacement pump doesn't have to be a jet pump, any of about same rating
and similar pressure boost will serve the purpose. Whether any cheaper
or not I don't know, but pumps are dime a dozen kinds of articles...

Plus, it's always handy to have an extra 1HP motor around to use as a disk
sander or whatever.

The problem of course is matching what is needed to fit nicely.
a. 1 HP (SF 1.4) is a given, as is 115/230VAC & 3450 RPM & Frame 56C.
b. The "jet pump" part seems to be in the "cast iron" head.

BTW, I realized that the model number is actually SHORTER than I posted,
because they mix the model and serial number together, it seems.

The model number seems to be: 5KC39QN
https://duckduckgo.com/?&q=5KC39QN+motor&ia=web

I'm still confused about this "jet pump" part of the spec though.

I need to learn more about this "jet pump" part because I think if I just
buy a motor, it's not a "jet pump motor" but just a "motor". The "jet pump"
part seems to be in that cast-iron head - which would likely stay since it
has all the pipes connected to it.

Can I just buy "any old" booster-pump motor that fits those basic specs?
Like, for example, this one?
https://www.sustainablesupply.com/to...rs/pump-motors

All that matters is that it has the same form factor; whether there's a
single or a couple pretty-much universal for jet pumps I don't know but
I'd guess there are a fairly limited number of designs for any given
pump size class so it's probably not too hard to find one that will work.

As for the frames, those are standardized _excepting_ if a vendor did
build a custom item for a given distributor like you say Marathon may
have done for GE...in that case the standard may be close but they may
have modified something just enough that you had to stay with them for
parts...

https://www.baldor.com/Shared/pdf/nema_chart_04.pdf

--

On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 9:39:53 PM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 9:02:57 PM UTC-4, Arlen Holder wrote:
On 14 Aug 2018 16:01:59 GMT, dpb wrote:

Well, there's _always_ voltage at the switch; the only question is does
it close and are the contacts any good to get to the other side...

It's pretty clear now that the two outside (black) wires are the two 120VAC
phases coming in, and the two inside (blue) wires are the two phases going
into the motor.

Uh oh, I expect you'll be hearing from Fretwell about calling them phases, that's supposed to be verboten. Saying two phases is pure heresy. Where were you when we were having that long electrical engineering discussion about what 240/120 service really is in the other thread?





http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1169657flow04.jpg

Well, did you not check for 240V _across_ the two blacks??? One would
presume nobody's moved anything and got both on the same phase, but....

Yeah. 118VAC RMS on each to the green ground when the motor is running and
236VAC RMS to each other when the motor is running, as measured on my DMM.

Interestingly, I originally checked each black incoming phase to the steel
water pipe expecting that to be grounded - but it wasn't all that good as
the voltage was around 20 volts so I used the green ground instead.



Forgot to add, you should find out why it's not grounded. For starters, the green supply ground wire should ground the motor and since the pipe is steel, it should be grounded too. Probably it is, maybe you just didn't have a good connection to it with the test probe.












Sure, just take a screwdriver with non-conductive handle and push down
to close the contacts...let go and it'll reopen if pressure cutoff or
run 'til builds pressure if drops while closed.

Something weird happened, but wasn't repeatable, but it could be the
pressure built up.

a. I turned the circuit breaker back on
b. The motor ran
c. I checked all the voltages (which were as expected)
d. With a stick I pulled the contacts open
e. Obviously the motor stopped
f. But when I let go with the stick, I expected the contact to slam back
g. They didn't. They stayed open. Huh?
h. I pushed them closed, expecting them to stay closed
i. They didn't. They opened when I let go of pressure.
j. Huh?

What I'm "thinking" (but need to test) is that there is an electromagnet
which keeps the contacts closed (something kept them closed in step (b)
above. Maybe it was just the lack of pressure though, and not an
electromagnet.

Contacts pushed open:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4628253flow06.jpg
Contacts pushed closed:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1733078flow07.jpg contacts closed

Anyway, I'll have to test again as there seems to be three states:
a. Contacts automatically closed and they stay closed
b. Contacts pushed open and they stay open
c. Contacts pushed closed but they won't stay closed

It could depend on the pressure though... but "something" keeps the
contacts closed which didn't do it once I opened them manually.

On 8/14/2018 8:03 PM, Gil wrote:
On 8/14/2018 5:54 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
On 14 Aug 2018 14:50:59 GMT, trader_4 wrote:

Those water tanks must be mighty high and/or mighty high up a hill to
get 66 PSI without a pump.

The water tanks are in parallel with each other and they are
definitely on
the same concrete platform as the pump house so their water height is all
that matters as they are directly behind the booster pump shed and on the
same concrete platform.

I'm guessing that they're 10 feet high ... they may be a bit taller
... but
not 15 feet.


If as you say, they are only approx. 10 feet, then that is only going to
create approx. 4.3 pounds of pressure to the inlet of the booster pump.
You have a duff gauge and/or a plugged line between the pressure switch
and the pump output.

Since they're paired and not stacked, the second adds volume but not
pressure, so it's only more like 2.3 psia.

On the latter, he's got a pressurized pressure tank just upstream a
couple feet that's producing the static pressure reading since the
system is still full...

--

On 8/13/18 10:54 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
On 13 Aug 2018 18:25:12 GMT, Dean Hoffman wrote:

70 psi is probably the shutdown point. 50 psi will probably be the
pump starting point.

Thanks for mentioning that the 70 psi is the shutdown point.
I'm guessing it's measuring that right off the bladder, even though the
gauge is on the pump itself.

Given that the gauge generally reads the same all the time, that 70 psi
"might" also be the pressure of the column of water in the full tanks (I'd
have to do the F=P/A math) where the tanks are ten feet high a few feet
behind the motor).

One thing I need to look at is whether the pressure gauge shows a lower
pressure when the home has no water pressure. I "think" it always shows the
same pressure - so that's why I think it might be showing the pressure of
the water column BEFORE it gets to the pump (I'd have to check in the
morning as I had not thought about it until now).

The thing you're calling the relay is the pressure switch.
Notice the tube leading away from it.

Ah. That tube. I didn't notice it until you mentioned it!
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5845028pressure08.jpg

Hmmmm... so the pressure coming out of the bladder is NOT being sensed.
I don't see *any* wires or sense tubes coming out of the bladder tank!
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5816454pressure03.jpg

That is interesting. If I bypass that, the pump should go on and off
(depending on if it's normally open or normally closed).

For it to be a pressure switch, it needs a 'sensor' somewhere.
Maybe the sensor is under those contacts?

I'd probably just replace the entire pump. There will be wear on
the impeller so it won't be at its most efficient.

I don't disagree. I've disassembled plenty of pumps, where almost all the
time the outdoor water pumps have these long bolts that break EVERY damn
time. I spend most of my time trying to get them out.

Meanwhile, the bearings are frozen onto the shaft (especially if they were
making noise).

The good news is that bearings are dirt cheap - the bad news is that taking
apart the motors generally is impossible due to those long bolts that
break.

I don't mind replacing the pump, but I can't find an exact one on Google.
The model number just doesn't match anything. I do have an email that I
sent to GE and I will call General Electric in the morning to ask where I
can get a replacement.

I'm not beholden to GE - but I have to match that 'frame'.
Do you have advice as to what the frame is?
I don't see it explicitly on the label.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2105511pressure05.jpg
Do you?

Answered in another place. A farmer solution would be to
replace the
pressure switch since it's the easiest and cheapest to try. There's no
way to
know if your pump motor's inherent protection is kicking out and resetting
unless you happen to be there and can feel if the motor is getting hot.
You might want to think about using a hose on the intake of the pump
if you decide to replace it. It would ease replacement if you can't find
a duplicate pump. Maybe Sharkbite or similar fittings on the output side
also.
I think there are cell phone apps available that would call you if
the water
level in your storage tanks drops too much.

On 8/14/2018 9:12 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 9:39:53 PM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
....

Forgot to add, you should find out why it's not grounded. For starters, the green supply ground wire should ground the motor and since the pipe is steel, it should be grounded too. Probably it is, maybe you just didn't have a good connection to it with the test probe.
....

Well, there was one short chunk of PVC at the pressure tank, who knows
what's been done elsewhere...

--

On 8/14/2018 9:17 PM, dpb wrote:
On 8/14/2018 8:03 PM, Gil wrote:
....

If as you say, they are only approx. 10 feet, then that is only going
to create approx. 4.3 pounds of pressure to the inlet of the booster
pump. You have a duff gauge and/or a plugged line between the pressure
switch and the pump output.

Since they're paired and not stacked, the second adds volume but not
pressure, so it's only more like 2.3 psia.
....


Ignore that, you're right, I was again thinking of the 2.3 ft/psi
instead of 0.43 psi/ft...

--

On 8/14/2018 9:12 PM, dpb wrote:
....

All that matters is that it has the same form factor; whether there's a
single or a couple pretty-much universal for jet pumps I don't know but
I'd guess there are a fairly limited number of designs for any given
pump size class so it's probably not too hard to find one that will work.
....


That of course is only if you're trying to replace the motor and keep
the pump.

Like T4, I think the better course given their age is just replace both
and be done with it and get another 30 years.

--

On 8/13/18 8:08 PM, trader_4 wrote:

IDK why you call it a pressure booster pump instead of just a pump.
It sounds like it's a jet pump and the only one. Jet pumps differ from
a piston pump in that they can bring up water from depths that are lower
than the max lift of a piston pump, which I think is like ~28 ft?
They use two pipes, one pushes water down the well to the other part
of the pump where a jet action picks up water and it comes back on
the other line.

I'd never heard of the two pipe system until you mentioned it. So I
had to look it up. Popular Mechanics has a short article.
https://www.popularmechanics.com/home/how-to/a152/1275136/
I'm in an area where a single pipe system is good enough. We used
to have artisan wells here. I don't know if any of those are still working.

On 8/15/2018 5:35 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
....

Â*Â* I'm in an area where a single pipe system is good enough.Â* We used
to have artisan wells here.Â* I don't know if any of those are still
working.

I think they graduated to sculpture...

"artesian"

There were a number in low-lying areas around here, too, but the water
table has now dropped sufficiently owing to widespread irrigation that
I'm unaware of any still running.

--

On 14 Aug 2018 19:01:49 GMT, dpb wrote:

Of course it depends on the pressure...looks like it ran just long
enough to get above the cut-in point. Remember, it doesn't pull in
until it gets _below_ the setpoint; soon as it's above it'll stay open
until it gets below again even if it hasn't gotten to cut-out. All it
takes is _just_ above and as far as the switch is concerned it's as good
as "stop".

And, yes, I'm sure there's an electromechanical assist in there so the
contacts will "make" and "break" solidly, not drift in and out solely on
the spring compression...

Thanks for confirming how the pressure switch works.

I ran some more tests today, where what appears to have happened is that
there may be an electromagnet of some sort because something snaps those
contact closed with a bit of force that I had to overcome with the wooden
stick and then it wouldn't re-engage (so it's not just a mechanical
spring).

I agree with your assessment.

Hopefully I'll test more for sure today as I left the booster pump ganged
circuit breaker off all night so there is no water pressure in the house at
this moment.

On 14 Aug 2018 18:39:46 GMT, trader_4 wrote:

Uh oh, I expect you'll be hearing from Fretwell about calling
them phases, that's supposed to be verboten.

Oh? Yikes. I didn't know about Fretwell. I didn't even think that there's
anything wrong with using the word phases but I agree that there are two
different concepts going on, where the three lines emanating from a power
plant are definitely three phases at 120 degrees apart, but by the time two
of those multiply-stepped-down lines hit my transformer, they're in a
center-tap transformer configuration, which isn't the same thing.

But I think I'll try to stay out of phase discussions as this is about
booster pump motors.

Saying two phases is pure heresy.
It is?

Where were you when we were having that long electrical engineering
discussion about what 240/120 service really is in the other thread?

I only come here when I have a problem to solve.

I'm not really all that concerned about "phase" terminology though, but I
can imagine that others are - so I appreciate the warning to use my terms
more delicately.

On 14 Aug 2018 19:27:35 GMT, dpb wrote:

Well, there was one short chunk of PVC at the pressure tank, who knows
what's been done elsewhere...

Good point that there is PVC all over ... which there is. All over.

For example, the four-inch pipe coming out of the storage tanks is PVC,
which means that the steel input you see is actually screwed into PVC.

Same thing on the output, where the pipes in the ground leading to the
house directly outside the booster pump shed appear to be PVC.

I actually got around 75 volts or so to the pipes, as I looked at my
pictures before deleting them from the phone.

But your response explains what we're seeing, which is all that matters,
which is understanding what is.

On 8/14/2018 4:51 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
....

The main question now is where to check for voltage:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6939192pump06.jpg

Obviously the green is a common ground.
There are two blue wires going to the motor.
It's hard to tell colors from that picture so I might clean them up a bit
with the power off.

The two black appear to be the input lines but it's hard to tell from that
picture.

Well, when you look at the overview, since the switch box is mounted
directly on the motor, the two going to it can't be anything else
leaving only the two to the right...

....

I'll clean it up a bit and check the voltages, where I would expect to have
220VAC on the input at all times that the water tanks are full but nothing
on the output until the pressure drops to somewhere less than 70 psi.

Actually that will be closer to 50 psi or so if the switch is adjusted
to anything close to a normal 20 lb cycle. For this application they
may have tightened that up some but that would be normal. That relates
back to your other comment last evening regarding being surprised didn't
pull in again after you'd broken contact after a short running time.

From the above comment regarding colors, it looks to me like _perhaps_
the two supplies (blue) have been hot from the connectors leading to
discoloration of the insulation. It may just be from exposure but that
they're blackened ends and then transition to pristine as get farther
from the connectors makes me question.

I'd check on that while the pump has been running a while and also see
about cleaning up those connections. I'm not that keen on the slide-on
connectors for higher current applications; there's really not that much
good contact area often.

--

On 8/15/2018 11:48 AM, dpb wrote:
....

From the above comment regarding colors, it looks to me like _perhaps_
the two supplies (blue) have been hot from the connectors leading to
discoloration of the insulation.Â* It may just be from exposure but that
they're blackened ends and then transition to pristine as get farther
from the connectors makes me question.

I'd check on that while the pump has been running a while and also see
about cleaning up those connections.Â* I'm not that keen on the slide-on
connectors for higher current applications; there's really not that much
good contact area often.

"From the above comment regarding colors, it looks to me like _perhaps_
the two supplies (blue) have been hot..."

Check that--blue is the motor leads, not supply...

--

On 8/15/2018 12:06 PM, dpb wrote:
On 8/15/2018 11:48 AM, dpb wrote:
...

Â*From the above comment regarding colors, it looks to me like
_perhaps_ the two supplies (blue) have been hot from the connectors
leading to discoloration of the insulation.Â* It may just be from
exposure but that they're blackened ends and then transition to
pristine as get farther from the connectors makes me question.

I'd check on that while the pump has been running a while and also see
about cleaning up those connections.Â* I'm not that keen on the
slide-on connectors for higher current applications; there's really
not that much good contact area often.

"From the above comment regarding colors, it looks to me like _perhaps_
Â*the two supplies (blue) have been hot..."

Check that--blue is the motor leads, not supply...

Oh, from pictures one can't tell, the insulation doesn't _look_ hardened
but if that were so it would a be dead giveaway "Houston, we have a
problem"...

--

On 14 Aug 2018 18:49:53 GMT, trader_4 wrote:

I said if it is the pump, you should probably be looking for a
whole pump, not a motor. DPB said it doesn't have to be a jet
pump either, which I agree with

Ah. Good point. I was equating pump & motor, where they're clearly
different.

The motor ends at the spinning shaft.
The pump is that cast iron stuff with all the pipes attached to it.

I agree that replacing the whole thing (pump + motor) is probably better
than trying to rebuild the motor and seals since I can't easily source the
motor bearings and seals without having better proactive sources (like a
good parts diagram).

I'm ok with plumbing although I'd prefer less rather than more of it.

On 14 Aug 2018 19:12:37 GMT, dpb wrote:

the replacement pump doesn't have to be a jet pump, any of about same rating
and similar pressure boost will serve the purpose.

Agreed. Thanks for the clarification that:
a. Any pump of similar rating will do, as,
b. It doesn't need to be a "jet pump".

All that matters is that it has the same form factor; whether there's a
single or a couple pretty-much universal for jet pumps I don't know but
I'd guess there are a fairly limited number of designs for any given
pump size class so it's probably not too hard to find one that will work.

I agree that the only thing that matters is the "form factor" which means
it has to fit with the pipes without too much redesign of piping if I
replace the entire pump.

If I replace the entire pump, I'd likely replace the pressure switch at the
same time I would think.

As for the frames, those are standardized _excepting_ if a vendor did
build a custom item for a given distributor like you say Marathon may
have done for GE...in that case the standard may be close but they may
have modified something just enough that you had to stay with them for
parts...
https://www.baldor.com/Shared/pdf/nema_chart_04.pdf

Thanks for that chart - although I had to grab my magnifying glasses!

Given I'm looking for a frame 56C:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2105511pressure05.jpg

The frame is a 56C according to the label...
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2105511pressure05.jpg

Unfortunately as you noted, the third line of your chart has a "56" and a
"56H" but no "56C" (where the "C" may or may not be significant).

The nice thing is the chart has measurements so I may need to get a rule up
there and take some...

On 14 Aug 2018 17:52:52 GMT, Dean Hoffman wrote:

The next question you should ask is "How do I adjust the air
pressure in my
bladder tank?"
https://www.ehow.com/how_6025664_adjust-air-pressure-bladder-tank.html

Air pressure?
You can adjust the air pressure?
Who knew there's a Schrader valve on top of that blue tank!
Not me!

I left the circuit breaker off all night and tested things this morning,
which helped a *lot* for me to figure out what is happening during normal
operation!

With only dribbles of water at the house, the gauge read about 60 psi:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6988753test01.jpg

The bladder tank was empty of water (as I could tilt it about an eighth of
an inch, and the faucet on the shed outside wall only dribbled):
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4372164test02.jpg

As a test of INPUT pressure from the storage tanks alone, I shut both
valves that send water to the pump and bladder, and I turned on the
normally closed valve that goes directly to the house and to that faucet on
the wall of the shed.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=8521072test00.jpg

The result is that *this* is the input pressure from the two parallel
storage tanks alone (which isn't bad for no pump or bladder at all):
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9473610test03.jpg

Interestingly, that test dropped the gauge pressure to 55 psi:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5815172test04.jpg

Looking for the Schrader valve, I removed the wrong cap:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=8553179test05.jpg
(What is there ... it seems like nothing is there?)

Obviously the other cap is the Schrader valve location where the tank seems
to be covered in some kind of "varnish" as it's clear blue beneath it:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6704190test06.jpg

Bladder pressure charge seems to be at 18 psi, which is well below the
original precharge of 38 psi (if that 39 psi is accurate):
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6471227test07.jpg

To run the next test, I closed the normally-closed bypass water valve and
re-opened the two normally open water valves.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=8642122flow01.jpg

I then turned the circuit breaker on and the pump ran for about three
minutes where the contacts clearly cut off in this position automatically:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=3775483test10.jpg

At that "full" point, my bladder gauge was pegged at above 60PSI:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=8551539test09.jpg

While the pump gauge read about 62 psi:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2732927test08.jpg

On 15 Aug 2018 10:13:53 GMT, dpb wrote:

Oh, from pictures one can't tell, the insulation doesn't _look_ hardened
but if that were so it would a be dead giveaway "Houston, we have a
problem"...

Thank you for noticing the blackened blue wires. It may have overheated at
some point as they do appear to be blackened a bit but the tinned copper
seems clean where it can be seen.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=3775483test10.jpg

The side view shows that the two outside connections are the input (black)
power while the two inside connections (blue) are the output to the motor.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1169657flow04.jpg

I tested them all this morning and everything is as would be expected, so,
what I'm seeking now, is to re-create the conditions that cause the
intermittency, as there is no problem until that shows up (although the
bladder read 18 psi this morning (after the power to the booster was off
all night) which is 20 psi lower than I had expected.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6471227test07.jpg 18 psi tank

After I turned the power back on, bladder pressure rose to above 60 psi
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=8551539test09.jpg

As did the motor pressure gauge:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2732927test08.jpg

On 8/15/2018 1:03 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
On 14 Aug 2018 17:52:52 GMT, Dean Hoffman wrote:

The next question you should ask is "How do I adjust the air
pressure in my
bladder tank?"
https://www.ehow.com/how_6025664_adjust-air-pressure-bladder-tank.html

Air pressure?
You can adjust the air pressure?
Who knew there's a Schrader valve on top of that blue tank!
Not me!

You really don't seem to observe very much for all the looking you
describe...

....

Looking for the Schrader valve, I removed the wrong cap:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=8553179test05.jpg
(What is there ... it seems like nothing is there?)

The nut is welded onto the tank to screw in a hook eye to move it with...

....

Bladder pressure charge seems to be at 18 psi, which is well below the
original precharge of 38 psi (if that 39 psi is accurate):
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6471227test07.jpg

And you should recharge it (when it is as empty as you can possibly get
it) to -2 psi from the pressure switch cutoff pressure. Leaving it so
low cam lead to premature failure of the diaphragm from over-flexing.

....

I then turned the circuit breaker on and the pump ran for about three
minutes where the contacts clearly cut off in this position automatically:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=3775483test10.jpg

At that "full" point, my bladder gauge was pegged at above 60PSI:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=8551539test09.jpg

While the pump gauge read about 62 psi:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2732927test08.jpg

That's suggestive that the overall system is still actually operating at
the nominal 60-40 setpoint range, not something approaching 70-75 psi.

I don't trust that old gauge much; you need to get a wider range gauge
to read the pressure in the pressure tank accurately in order to know
where your pressure switch setpoint is and to precharge it correctly for
the operating pressure.

I'd take the other gauge out to check it actually does zero...where the
50+ psi came from with the pressure tank empty and showing 20 and only
5 psi or so from the external tank head is a mystery (unless the well
pump was on?).

--

On Wednesday, August 15, 2018 at 2:14:01 PM UTC-4, Arlen Holder wrote:
On 15 Aug 2018 10:13:53 GMT, dpb wrote:

Oh, from pictures one can't tell, the insulation doesn't _look_ hardened
but if that were so it would a be dead giveaway "Houston, we have a
problem"...

Thank you for noticing the blackened blue wires. It may have overheated at
some point as they do appear to be blackened a bit but the tinned copper
seems clean where it can be seen.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=3775483test10.jpg

The side view shows that the two outside connections are the input (black)
power while the two inside connections (blue) are the output to the motor.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1169657flow04.jpg

I tested them all this morning and everything is as would be expected, so,
what I'm seeking now, is to re-create the conditions that cause the
intermittency, as there is no problem until that shows up (although the
bladder read 18 psi this morning (after the power to the booster was off
all night) which is 20 psi lower than I had expected.

What were you expecting? Was water used? If no water is used, it should have had no pressure drop. If you left a faucet open, it should be zero.






http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6471227test07.jpg 18 psi tank

After I turned the power back on, bladder pressure rose to above 60 psi
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=8551539test09.jpg

As did the motor pressure gauge:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2732927test08.jpg

On 15 Aug 2018 11:28:15 GMT, dpb wrote:

You really don't seem to observe very much for all the looking you
describe...

I agree with you.
It's obvious to all that how the system works was a mystery to me.
And, it's just as obvious that it's only slowing dawning on me what all the
pieces are and what they do (and where they should be).

The nut is welded onto the tank to screw in a hook eye to move it with...
Ah. I see. It would make sense.
Thanks for that input as to what that top nut was for.

And you should recharge it (when it is as empty as you can possibly get
it) to -2 psi from the pressure switch cutoff pressure. Leaving it so
low cam lead to premature failure of the diaphragm from over-flexing.

I'm confused by that advice - which isn't to say it's wrong - I just don't
know yet what the "cutoff pressure" is set to.

I can see that the water storage tanks alone seem to be supplying about 55
psi according to the gauge at the front of the booster pump, if that
reading is correct.

One anomaly I just realized exists is that when the bladder read 18 psi,
the gauge at the pump read around 55 to 60 psi, which shouldn't be, right?

Shouldn't both the bladder and pump gauge read the same pressure?

NOTE: Since I have a 220VAC compressor on wheels, I can remove its gauge
and swap it with the gauge on the booster pump motor to ensure that the
readings on the gauge are accurate.

That's suggestive that the overall system is still actually operating at
the nominal 60-40 setpoint range, not something approaching 70-75 psi.

I agree that, yesterday, it was higher than today, with the only difference
that could be appreciable being that the temperature in the morning is a
good 20 degrees cooler than in the later afternoon.

I can check the gauge pressure later today - where I think I should just
replace that gauge on the booster pump to ensure that it's reading
correctly, since the bladder read 18psi clearly (multiple tests) while the
booster pump gauge read 55 psi at the same time.

I don't trust that old gauge much; you need to get a wider range gauge
to read the pressure in the pressure tank accurately in order to know
where your pressure switch setpoint is and to precharge it correctly for
the operating pressure.

I agree on both counts that I need a better gauge (my tire gauge stops at
60psi which is about 10 or 20 psi too low).

I have a 220VAC air compressor and lots of fittings so I can dig up another
gauge I think. Replacing the old gauge on the pump motor will go a long way
toward allowing us to trust the readings.

I'd take the other gauge out to check it actually does zero...where the
50+ psi came from with the pressure tank empty and showing 20 and only
5 psi or so from the external tank head is a mystery (unless the well
pump was on?).

I didn't think about the well pump - good catch - it could have been on as
I didn't shut its breaker off. I should have.

But I agree inherently with you that I need to replace that old pump gauge
just so I can be sure to trust it. I'll work on that today if I can dig up
a gauge; otherwise, I'll buy one.

On 15 Aug 2018 11:33:58 GMT, trader_4 wrote:

What were you expecting?

I was expecting 38 psi in the bladder since that's the precharge pressure.
I only got 18 psi.

Funny thing, the pump motor gauge read 55 psi when the bladder read 18 psi.
I will replace that pump motor gauge as soon as I can.

Was water used?
If no water is used, it should have had no pressure drop.

I am embarrassed to admit that the irrigation system has leaks in it, so,
I'm sure water was used overnight.

If you left a faucet open, it should be zero.
The faucets were all closed.
But, the irrigation system has a couple of leaks.

To be clear, I left the power off on purpose so that I could run that test
this morning. So it did what I expected.

The only thing unexpected was that the bladder is 18 psi; not 38 psi but I
probably need to make sure I *isolate* the bladder from the storage tanks
(which can give it a few PSI perhaps?).

On 8/15/2018 2:09 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
On 15 Aug 2018 11:33:58 GMT, trader_4 wrote:

What were you expecting?

I was expecting 38 psi in the bladder since that's the precharge pressure.
I only got 18 psi.


....

The only thing unexpected was that the bladder is 18 psi; not 38 psi but I
probably need to make sure I *isolate* the bladder from the storage tanks
(which can give it a few PSI perhaps?).

Would you also still expect 32 psi in a car tire that had been sitting
unattended for 30 yr or so (or however long it's been since the air
pressure in the pressure tank was last checked/aired up to proper
pressure)?????

It's no different, it'll leak a tiny amount past the Schroeder plus
there's diffusion thru the bladder/diaphragm so in has to be recharged
every so often as routine maintenance.

It should be set to the cutin (I may have inadvertently written "cutout"
above) pressure -2 psi; what needs be determined is just where the
pressure switch is actually operating.

As noted in the previous response, this makes it look very much like
it's actually still at 40-60 nominal, _not_ some 10-15 psi higher.

If you have compressor with regulator on it's output you can test the
switch or, more simply, with a _KNOWN WORKING AND ACCURATE GAUGE OF
SUFFICIENT CAPACITY_, observe the operating pressure when the pump kicks
on and off.

As for the last comment, no, I'd not isolate anything; you want it as it
normally operates, not some biased condition that isn't normal. There's
not enough there to really matter much, but you may as well be
reasonably close to where it actually operates most of the time...of
course, do the reservoir tanks "live" in a mostly topped-off condition
or on the bottom end? I guess the float must be towards the top if not
at the overflow outlet so if you have sufficient water to ever get there...

--

On 8/15/2018 2:04 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
....

And you should recharge it (when it is as empty as you can possibly get
it) to -2 psi from the pressure switch cutoff pressure. Leaving it so
low cam lead to premature failure of the diaphragm from over-flexing.

I'm confused by that advice - which isn't to say it's wrong - I just don't
know yet what the "cutoff pressure" is set to.

It is wrong--I inadvertently wrote "cutoff" instead of "cut-in" so to
set the record straight even though made the correct answer farther down
and not to have the mistype stand uncorrected...

That's why the "preset" is 38 psi; normal operating ranges and that for
which most pressure switches come preset is 40-60 and 38 is 40-2 (doh! )


I can see that the water storage tanks alone seem to be supplying about 55
psi according to the gauge at the front of the booster pump, if that
reading is correct.
....

That simply isn't physically possible given the arrangement you've
outlined; there can be only 5 or so psi of static head from a 10-ft tall
tank sitting at the same elevation.

Either the gauge won't zero or as noted elsewhere, the well pump was
running but that pressure can NOT be real otherwise unless there's some
other external source backfeeding the system.

--

On Wednesday, August 15, 2018 at 3:52:36 PM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 8/15/2018 2:04 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
...

And you should recharge it (when it is as empty as you can possibly get
it) to -2 psi from the pressure switch cutoff pressure. Leaving it so
low cam lead to premature failure of the diaphragm from over-flexing.

I'm confused by that advice - which isn't to say it's wrong - I just don't
know yet what the "cutoff pressure" is set to.

It is wrong--I inadvertently wrote "cutoff" instead of "cut-in" so to
set the record straight even though made the correct answer farther down
and not to have the mistype stand uncorrected...

That's why the "preset" is 38 psi; normal operating ranges and that for
which most pressure switches come preset is 40-60 and 38 is 40-2 (doh! )


I can see that the water storage tanks alone seem to be supplying about 55
psi according to the gauge at the front of the booster pump, if that
reading is correct.
...

That simply isn't physically possible given the arrangement you've
outlined; there can be only 5 or so psi of static head from a 10-ft tall
tank sitting at the same elevation.

Either the gauge won't zero or as noted elsewhere, the well pump was
running b

Even if the submersible pump was running, the water pressure at the storage tank is still determined by the water height and would be the same with the pump on or off. It might be a few pounds higher with the pump on, depending on how it's plumbed.



ut that pressure can NOT be real otherwise unless there's some
other external source backfeeding the system.

--

Uncle Monster posted for all of us...



On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 2:37:34 PM UTC-5, Arlen Holder wrote:
On 14 Aug 2018 05:01:41 GMT, Uncle Monster wrote:

Most pressure switches work off the air pressure from the air trapped
in the top of the water tank.

Thank you for being helpful on the questions asked.

The 10,000 gallon water tanks are unpressurized - they simply hold water.
They can't be pressurized as there is a manhole cover on top that fits
loosely and there is a three or four inch vent in the middle of the top
also.

The only tank that is "pressurized" is the four-foot tall blue bladder tank
that is pictured in the previous set of photos inside the pressure pump
shed.

Most pressure switches made for well water and pressure tank systems
share similar characteristics.

I'm sure of that, which is why asking here on a.h.r can be fruitful.

The switches are adjustable to the desired pressure and control the
contactor(high current power relay) that supplies power to the pump.

You bring up an interesting point that the pressure switch may be
adjustable, which, if I can find the adjustment, would be useful perhaps
for troubleshooting purposes.

As far as the pump or motor goes, there should be nameplates on the
units that have the specifications, otherwise, you should be able to
look up the specs using the model numbers and cross-reference the
equipment to a different brand or similar equipment.

As shown in the photos, you're correct the nameplate has everything I need.
* 1 HP (Service Factor 1.4), single-phase 115/230VAC, Frame 56C, Code L

It's the Internet that doesn't have any parts diagrams on the model:
* General Electric Jet Pump Motor Model 5KC39QN1157AX

I called GE, which was a two-hour experience because GE sold all their
motors to two different enterprises...

Fractional HP Motors went to Riegel Beloit at 260-416-5400
1HP & up went to Marathon/Century 800-541-7191

You don't want to know what happened when I called each of those.

The bearing replacement on an electric motor is usually straightforward
and if it's some years old, you may consider replacing the motor capacitor
or capacitors if there are start and a run capacitors.

I'm familiar with the "bulge" of the electrolytic starting caps but I don't
see one in this motor (it could be internal - but probably not) - but
that's a good idea to keep in mind for what to purchase ahead of time in
addition to the bearings.

I can't yet find a parts diagram where Riegel Beloit told me that this
motor was specially made for Marathon and then for Jacuzzi Brothers, so a
parts diagram may be hard to find based on the model number alone.

There are websites that go into more detail with pictures on
servicing pump and pressure tank systems.
https://tinyurl.com/yatp85n7
https://tinyurl.com/y8dugtml

Thanks for those URLs. As noted, I've replaced and rebuilt motors before,
where the main issue is that of downtime so I want to source the bearings
first. Once the bearings are in my hands, they're easy to source but it
takes time if they're not standard sizes - so that's why I'm seeking a
parts diagram first.

It's been several years since I was able to walk and work but when I was working, I would go to one of several motor shops other than Grainger to get parts for motors and pumps. The motor shops had a lot of knowledgeable guys working the counter who could help customers and tradesmen because they had seen it all. The motor shops also did pump repair in addition to electric motor repair. I don't know what size city you're in but here in Birmingham,
Al there is a Johnstone, a W.W. Grainger and a half dozen independent industrial supply houses where me and the guys would go to get the repair parts needed for various pumps and motors. The electrical supply houses also carried various motors and pumps or the parts were a phone call away. I kind of miss working. o_O

[8~{} Uncle Frustrated Monster

IDK the Birmingham area but Graingers has closed most of their branch's
around me. One now has to go to the major city to overpay and get no
service.

--
Tekkie

On 8/15/2018 3:06 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, August 15, 2018 at 3:52:36 PM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
....

I can see that the water storage tanks alone seem to be supplying about 55
psi according to the gauge at the front of the booster pump, if that
reading is correct.
...

That simply isn't physically possible given the arrangement you've
outlined; there can be only 5 or so psi of static head from a 10-ft tall
tank sitting at the same elevation.

Either the gauge won't zero or as noted elsewhere, the well pump was
running b

Even if the submersible pump was running, the water pressure at the storage tank is still determined by the water height and would be the same with the pump on or off. It might be a few pounds higher with the pump on, depending on how it's plumbed.

....

The latter is what wasn't sure of...depending on just how it is plumbed
and how he had some of those isolation valves configured wasn't positive
there isn't a way to end up backfeeding the jet pump so it might
possibly show (most of) the submersible outlet pressure there...that's
assuming that it is connected here and doesn't feed only directly to the
storage tanks totally independetly; I was presuming they'd want a direct
path available as well if for some reason there were an issue from the
storage tanks wouldn't be totally without as long as could run the
submersible...wasn't enough in the overall in pictures I've seen to know
that for sure (but I've not looked at anything approaching all that have
been posted, either... )

--

trader_4 posted for all of us...



On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 9:16:48 PM UTC-4, Arlen Holder wrote:
On 14 Aug 2018 17:45:37 GMT, in alt.home.repair you wrote:

It doesn't even needs must be a jet pump altho if can find one of same
form factor to fit the existing plumbing makes swap-out simpler.

I'm not sure what you're saying there as your edits got garbled (it happens
to all of us), but I do AGREE that buying a motor as a spare is a good idea
given that (a) repair costs more than a motor, and (b) with the pump there
is no water pressure.

Plus, it's always handy to have an extra 1HP motor around to use as a disk
sander or whatever.

The problem of course is matching what is needed to fit nicely.
a. 1 HP (SF 1.4) is a given, as is 115/230VAC & 3450 RPM & Frame 56C.
b. The "jet pump" part seems to be in the "cast iron" head.

BTW, I realized that the model number is actually SHORTER than I posted,
because they mix the model and serial number together, it seems.

The model number seems to be: 5KC39QN
https://duckduckgo.com/?&q=5KC39QN+motor&ia=web

I'm still confused about this "jet pump" part of the spec though.

I need to learn more about this "jet pump" part because I think if I just
buy a motor, it's not a "jet pump motor" but just a "motor". The "jet pump"
part seems to be in that cast-iron head - which would likely stay since it
has all the pipes connected to it.

Can I just buy "any old" booster-pump motor that fits those basic specs?
Like, for example, this one?
https://www.sustainablesupply.com/to...rs/pump-motors

I said if it is the pump, you should probably be looking for a whole pump, not a motor. DPB said it doesn't have to be a jet pump either, which I agree with.

I will be the third to agree with this.

I would get a new pump. Maybe a chunk of something is jamming the impeller
which would give the same conclusion.

--
Tekkie

On 8/15/2018 12:27 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
On 14 Aug 2018 19:12:37 GMT, dpb wrote:
....

https://www.baldor.com/Shared/pdf/nema_chart_04.pdf

Thanks for that chart - although I had to grab my magnifying glasses!

Your pdf viewer will have +/- buttons on it somewhere to change
magnification factor...

Given I'm looking for a frame 56C:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2105511pressure05.jpg

The frame is a 56C according to the label...
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2105511pressure05.jpg

Unfortunately as you noted, the third line of your chart has a "56" and a
"56H" but no "56C" (where the "C" may or may not be significant).
.....

The "C" suffix indicates the face dimensions; I didn't really look at
the specific chart, there's a note at the top to "Contact your local
Baldor office for "C" Dimensions"; there's a partial listing at the
bottom...

Gargle is your friend; turns out Grainger has link to a more complete
chart, again "C" data is at the bottom...

https://www.grainger.com/tps/motors_nema_motor_dimensional_chart.pdf

--

On 8/15/18 1:28 PM, dpb wrote:
On 8/15/2018 1:03 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
On 14 Aug 2018 17:52:52 GMT, Dean Hoffman wrote:

The next question you should ask is "How do I adjust the air
pressure in my
bladder tank?"
https://www.ehow.com/how_6025664_adjust-air-pressure-bladder-tank.html

Air pressure?
Â* You can adjust the air pressure?
Â* Who knew there's a Schrader valve on top of that blue tank!
Not me!

You really don't seem to observe very much for all the looking you
describe...

It tickles me that someone so well educated is ignorant about basic
stuff like this. Ignorant isn't meant as an insult. He'd lose me in
about two
sentences explaining solid state whatevers.
Chinese proverb:
€œHe who asks a question is a fool for five minutes; he who does not ask
a question remains a fool forever€�

On 15 Aug 2018 12:36:47 GMT, dpb wrote:

do the reservoir tanks "live" in a mostly topped-off condition
or on the bottom end?

I'm going to replace the pump gauge.
The water storage tanks are mostly in the almost full range.
We don't use much water. Probably 100 gallons a day or so (I'm guessing).

My plan is simple at the moment, now that I know how the thing works.
1. Replace the gauge at the booster pump
2. Determine at what pressure the motor turns on (and off)
3. Fill the bladder to 2 psi less than the motor turns on
(or, adjust the pressure the motor turns on - but maybe not)

Meanwhile...
A. Try to find a source for the entire pump + motor assembly, or,
B. Try to find a source for a parts diagram

Then...
a. Wait for the pump to not go on when it's supposed to go on, and,
b. Measure whether it's the pump or the switch that is failing.

On 8/15/2018 6:55 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 8/15/18 1:28 PM, dpb wrote:
On 8/15/2018 1:03 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
On 14 Aug 2018 17:52:52 GMT, Dean Hoffman wrote:

The next question you should ask is "How do I adjust the air
pressure in my
bladder tank?"
https://www.ehow.com/how_6025664_adjust-air-pressure-bladder-tank.html


Air pressure?
Â* You can adjust the air pressure?
Â* Who knew there's a Schrader valve on top of that blue tank!
Not me!

You really don't seem to observe very much for all the looking you
describe...

Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* It tickles me that someone so well educated is ignorant about basic
stuff like this.Â* Ignorant isn't meant as an insult.Â* He'd lose me in
about two sentences explaining solid state whatevers.

Well, that for me, too, probably if it's more than barest basics; and
I'm not faulting him for not knowing much about the system--what gets me
is that even when he's spending time looking at things he doesn't seem
to actually _SEE_ what is there -- not observing the pressure tap going
to the pressure switch, having looked up and posted a pdf on the
pressure tank itself and still then not checking what's under those
little caps, just the most basic of just observing what is in front of
his eyes...

I pointed that out not with the intent to insult or denigrate but to try
to prod to be more attentive.

"You can observe a lot by just watching." - Yogi Berra

--

On 15 Aug 2018 16:47:41 GMT, dpb wrote:

Your pdf viewer will have +/- buttons on it somewhere to change
magnification factor...

Yes. Thanks. I know.
(The comment was more about my old octogenarian eyes.)

The "C" suffix indicates the face dimensions; I didn't really look at
the specific chart, there's a note at the top to "Contact your local
Baldor office for "C" Dimensions"; there's a partial listing at the
bottom...

Thanks for finding that better chart with some 56C dimensions:
https://www.grainger.com/tps/motors_nema_motor_dimensional_chart.pdf

NEMA face = 56C
Shaft diameter (U) = 5/8
Shaft long (N-W) = 1-7/8
Rabbet diameter = 4-1/2
Bolt circle diameter = 5-7/8

I have one key question of those who have matched motors and pumps.
Q: Does NONE of that matter if I replace the entire pump?

On 8/15/2018 10:09 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
....


I have one key question of those who have matched motors and pumps.
Q: Does NONE of that matter if I replace the entire pump?

Depends on whether you're replacing the motor, too... or whether by
"entire" you mean the motor _and_ pump.

Of course, if you by a matched set together, they'll fit; if you by
separately, then "yes, it does matter" in that since the pump bolts to
the face of the motor, they have to be of commensurate dimensions.

--

On 15 Aug 2018 18:12:19 GMT, dpb wrote:

Well, that for me, too, probably if it's more than barest basics; and
I'm not faulting him for not knowing much about the system--what gets me
is that even when he's spending time looking at things he doesn't seem
to actually _SEE_ what is there -- not observing the pressure tap going
to the pressure switch...

To be truthful, until someone mentioned it - I simply thought the "bare
thick wire" was a ground. It didn't even occur to me that the pressure tap
was a "tube" as I never expected to see a tube sticking out of a motor
(where I was unaware that the front was the "pump").

A lot has to do with expectations.

For example, I can tell diffusion from poly in a chip layout, and I know
that in layout-versus-schematic physical verification tools, they often
can't determine a lightly doped drain - but I don't know a jet pump from a
non jet pump.

To be fair to me, I never once claimed I was a genius.
I never claimed to know more than I do.

I am not embarrassed to say I never heard of, oh, a Schrader valve being on
a pressure bladder - simply because I never once _thought_ about the
pressure bladder. I never had a reason to think of it. I've never owned a
house with one before, for example (my previous city water didn't have
them).

If I claimed to be a genius - then you could fault me for being ignorant of
how things work and of not noticing things that you knew a priori.

Having said that, I do fully *agree* with you that I thought the pressure
switch was a mere relay, and therefore it was a mystery to me how the
pressure was sensed!

Now I realize that it was very stupid of me to not notice what you've
helped me notice - and I'm not at all embarrassed to admit that - just like
I blew a hole in my arm just two weeks ago by forgetting to set the carbon
dioxide pressure appropriately when essentially running experiments blowing
up bottles! http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=962599720180729_174631.jpg

having looked up and posted a pdf on the
pressure tank itself and still then not checking what's under those
little caps, just the most basic of just observing what is in front of
his eyes...

I think that's unfair as I did check what's under the caps.

In fact, I opened the Schrader valve cap first - but I also wanted to see
what was under the other cap (which someone kindly told me was a threaded
nut for a carrying hook - which makes sense).

I pointed that out not with the intent to insult or denigrate but to try
to prod to be more attentive.

I fully agree with your observation that I didn't notice how the system
works, and where it didn't occur to me to check the bladder pressure, nor
did I notice the pressure transfer tube from the pump to the pressure
switch.

It's no different than the transmission clutch I did about two weeks ago
where I didn't know where the pilot bearing was from where the throwout
bearing was, and where I clearly performed the job nonetheless, with the
help from people on this newsgroup.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.home.repair/qEhph1MmSKs/4wE_j4P7BgAJ

If I can get to the rear oil seal, as shown in this pictures, I "can" learn
since this was the first clutch job in my entire life.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=3049446dowel_pinned.jpg

I wanted to do a clutch, at least once, before I die - where you guys were
instrumental in giving me the courage to perform the job successfully!
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.home.repair/YvubIh8oBwY/-utBXsHDAAAJ

Although, what I learned was that the next time, if that ever happens (it
probably won't), I would replace more parts than just what I originally
planned (particularly the rear engine oil seal & rear tranny oil seal):
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5199382clutch03.jpg

On 15 Aug 2018 20:14:15 GMT, dpb wrote:

Depends on whether you're replacing the motor, too... or whether by
"entire" you mean the motor _and_ pump.

Of course, if you by a matched set together, they'll fit; if you by
separately, then "yes, it does matter" in that since the pump bolts to
the face of the motor, they have to be of commensurate dimensions.

Mea culpa.
Yes. I had meant the whole thing.

1. It seems if I replace the whole thing, not much matters other than the
1HP spec ...
2. But if I replace just the motor - then the 56C frame matters a lot.

Thanks for asking a clarifying question, as I was remiss in not being clear
that I meant replacing "both" the motor and the "jet pump impeller" or
whatever that heavy steel end is called.

Interestingly, the motor plate says "jet pump motor", but, as far as I can
tell, it's just a "motor", right? (the heavy steel part is the 'jet' part,
right?)

I mean, what's different about a "jet pump motor" from a "motor" when the
jet pump part is *outside* the motor anyway?

BTW, here's a video of a "jet pump" being disassembled:
https://youtu.be/Jc0ardpRFSk?t=631
where they say the pump is "stainless steel".

It should just be called a "motor" or a "pump motor" but the motor doesn't
appear to be any different for a "jet pump" than for a "regular" pump.

Q: What's different between a "jet pump motor" and a "motor"?
Looking that up.... this Popular Mechanics article explains jets a bit:
https://www.popularmechanics.com/home/how-to/a152/1275136/

Apparently, if plumbed for a "2-pipe jet assembly", it helps the well pump:
https://hips.hearstapps.com/pop.h-cdn.co/assets/cm/15/05/54c8014f42d24_-_lg_3251_2_lg.gif

So, in this case, the motor part appears to simply be just a "motor", and
not really a "jet pump motor"; it just happens to be attached to a
cast-iron assembly that can be used as a "jet", it seems.

The "jet pump" can be used to assist a deep well - but mine isn't being
used that way (apparently).

BTW, this FAQ says the motor should be sized such that the pump runs for at
least 2 minutes, where mine ran for 3 minutes from an overnight discharge.
http://www.flotecpump.com/ResidentialPage_resource_faq_jetpump.aspx

The problem they wish to avoid they call "rapid cycling", so I will listen
tomorrow if I can to a normal cycle to see how long the pump runs where I
will time it to see if it's at least 2 minutes (which I never knew mattered
until now).