On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 8:01:46 AM UTC-4, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 10:54:46 PM UTC-5, Arlen Holder wrote:
On 13 Aug 2018 18:35:11 GMT, Uncle Monster wrote:

Go fellate yourself Traitor_4ever.
I didn't see you offering any help.
You lack the expertise to assist the fellow or to be concerned
about his safety anyway so your best bet is to STFU.

Let's stop bickering.
It's just foolish to say "call a plumber" on this newsgroup.
You got all upset that I said that - and I understand.

I apologize if you're all upset.

You think I'm gonna kill myself, and I told you I'm an EE but that doesn't
(a) give me immunity from electrocution, nor does it (b) teach me anything
about how the pressure switch works, and (c) it doesn't help me figure out
what "frame" this pump happens to use.

You can continue to be afraid of your own shadow, but I'm not.

All I need, for now, is helpful advice.
Your advice, so far, has not been helpful.

To be helpful, if you actually have experience you claim, then you would
easily be able to answer these three basic questions.
1. How does that pressure switch work (so I can troubleshoot it)?
2. If I replace the switch or pump, what specs matter?
3. If I replace just the bearings, what else would you order to replace?

Most pressure switches work off the air pressure from the air trapped in the top of the water tank.

Baloney. And it's a good thing too, because most tanks have relied
on bladders that contain the air for a long time already. The
switch would have to be involved with the bag, it isn't. The pressure
switch is on the tank plumbing and reacts to the water pressure.
It would work if you put it in the air part of a tank without a bladder,
because the pressure is the same. IDK how you'd put it in a modern tank
with a bladder and get to the air.






Most pressure switches made for well water and pressure tank systems share similar characteristics.

Maybe because they are essentially the same thing. Around here, if you
have a well, you have a pump and pressure tank.



The switches are adjustable to the desired pressure and control the contactor(high current power relay) that supplies power to the pump.

Again, there is no relay in a typical water pump. The pressure
switch simply is the switch for the AC to the motor.





As far as the pump or motor goes, there should be nameplates on the units that have the specifications,

He's posted the info, pics, etc. yesterday.




otherwise, you should be able to look up the specs using the model numbers and cross-reference the equipment to a different brand or similar equipment.. The bearing replacement on an electric motor is usually straightforward and if it's some years old, you may consider replacing the motor capacitor or capacitors if there are start and a run capacitors. There are websites that go into more detail with pictures on servicing pump and pressure tank systems. ^_^

https://tinyurl.com/yatp85n7

https://tinyurl.com/y8dugtml

[8~{} Uncle Pumpped Monster


You were doing better making snide remarks, maybe you should stick
to that.

On 14 Aug 2018 07:28:42 GMT, dpb wrote:

Where do the leads for what you keep calling a level switch relay come
from? There's got to be _something_ for it if it indeed is anything
more than interposing relay.

The setup is only now starting to make sense to me now that folks explained
how the pressure switch works and where it was!
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4252649pump04.jpg

The pressure switch was in plain sight all along - but I thought it was
just a relay of some sort (which it is - but it's more a pressure switch):
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6939192pump06.jpg

This is the fusebox panel (which contains circuits for the well pump also):
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=7831116pressure09.jpg

There are two "relays" that must be closed in order for the pressure pump
(aka booster pump, aka GE Jet Pump Motor) to turn on:
1. The water tanks must have water in them
2. The pressure must drop below a given preset value

You can see the first relay in this picture where it's the relay on the
left (ignore the right relay - that's a relay for the well pump itself):
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1279096pressure07.jpg

It's hard to notice from just that photo, but that left-most relay is
pulled in an eighth of an inch when the fuse panel allows electricity.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2443640pressure10.jpg

This is exactly what is supposed to happen - which indicates that the big
water tanks themselves have enough water in them as there is an "empty"
switch that will *open* that circuit if there isn't enough water. Of this
I'm positive as I had issues in the past when the tank ran dry due to me
forgetting to turn the power back on so I climbed on top of the big water
tanks and pulled that level sensing switch out and flipped it upside down
and the booster pump started working when I did that.

The second relay is, of course, the pressure switch & relay which is
attached to the booster pump motor.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9773849pump01.jpg

On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 3:37:33 PM UTC-4, Arlen Holder wrote:
On 14 Aug 2018 00:54:22 GMT, trader_4 wrote:

The pressure sensor is the pressure control switch that you
previously called a relay. It has a water pipe connection on it.

I see the water pipe that someone mentioned, where it's also a relay based
on all those contacts visible on top.

It's not a relay, it's just a pressure switch. You say you're an electrical
engineer and you can't identify a switch vs a relay?





I guess it surprises me that the front of the pump where the impeller must
be is "pressurized" since that's where the metal tube is coming out of.

The pump must have an EXCELLENT seal to hold that much pressure for so long
without leaking past 75PSI at any time I've ever looked.

Those two nuts adjust the cut-in and cut-out pressures.

That's good to know as I didn't know what exactly they adjusted.

Now that you described the whole setup, I see why you're calling
it a booster pump.

The pump appears to have only one purpose, which is to boost the water
pressure of the bladder from ambient pressure to about 75 psi.

It's purpose is to suck up water and force it into the tank until
it reaches the cut-off pressure.




I've seen these bladders everywhere where I live, so, they're pretty common
(every single home has one).

It's odd that someone said the "water tank" is pressurized, as that would
be astoundingly crazy to pressurize a 10,000 gallon set of tanks when all
you need to do is pressurize these little 4-foot tall bladder tanks.

I think they were referring to the pressurized water tank, not the
unpressurized storage tanks. The setup you have is not the common type
where there is only the one pressurized tank. I suspect you have a low
flow well and that;s why you need the storage tanks?

On 14 Aug 2018 07:50:09 GMT, trader_4 wrote:

IDK why he insists on debugging the whole system.

I think I understand your point, where generally, debugging can only happen
after I understand how the system works.

Once I understand how it's supposed to work, only then is it obvious where
to check for water pressure and voltage.

I guess if he wants
to know how it works, that's OK. But he heard a squeal coming from
the pump, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

This is true. Too true.

I'd simply wait
until it's not working and see if there is voltage on the motor.

I think that can be arranged ... all I have to do is use a lot of water, I
think, we I can do later today in the irrigation cycle.

The main question, of course, is WHERE to look for voltage, so I guess I
should test it now while it's working as I haven't figured out these wires
yet...
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6939192pump06.jpg

If yes, he knows the pump is the problem. If not, then he can just
follow the voltage.

This is the right answer - which is to wait for the pump to not go on when
it should, and then see if the problem is the pressure switch or the pump
itself.
a. If it's the pressure switch, there will be no voltage coming out
b. If it's the pump, there will be voltage at the switch but no pumping

I just have to figure out which leads that is.

He keeps looking for a sensor or wires coming out of the tank. Yet
he posted a picture of a pump pressure switch, clear as day.

Only when people told me that the thing I thought was just a relay is
actually the pressure switch (and relay) - where this pipe on the underside
proves it.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9773849pump01.jpg

That
is the "sensor" and that has to have a connection to the water coming out
of it. It doesn't have to be hooked directly to the tank, it could
just be connected to the water line coming out of the tank.

You are correct. That input pressure tube is attached to the cast iron
"front" octopus of the motor itself - which is where the water both comes
in, and appears to go out to the blue bladder tank.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9413854pump02.jpg

On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 2:37:34 PM UTC-5, Arlen Holder wrote:
On 14 Aug 2018 05:01:41 GMT, Uncle Monster wrote:

Most pressure switches work off the air pressure from the air trapped
in the top of the water tank.

Thank you for being helpful on the questions asked.

The 10,000 gallon water tanks are unpressurized - they simply hold water.
They can't be pressurized as there is a manhole cover on top that fits
loosely and there is a three or four inch vent in the middle of the top
also.

The only tank that is "pressurized" is the four-foot tall blue bladder tank
that is pictured in the previous set of photos inside the pressure pump
shed.

Most pressure switches made for well water and pressure tank systems
share similar characteristics.

I'm sure of that, which is why asking here on a.h.r can be fruitful.

The switches are adjustable to the desired pressure and control the
contactor(high current power relay) that supplies power to the pump.

You bring up an interesting point that the pressure switch may be
adjustable, which, if I can find the adjustment, would be useful perhaps
for troubleshooting purposes.

As far as the pump or motor goes, there should be nameplates on the
units that have the specifications, otherwise, you should be able to
look up the specs using the model numbers and cross-reference the
equipment to a different brand or similar equipment.

As shown in the photos, you're correct the nameplate has everything I need.
* 1 HP (Service Factor 1.4), single-phase 115/230VAC, Frame 56C, Code L

It's the Internet that doesn't have any parts diagrams on the model:
* General Electric Jet Pump Motor Model 5KC39QN1157AX

I called GE, which was a two-hour experience because GE sold all their
motors to two different enterprises...

Fractional HP Motors went to Riegel Beloit at 260-416-5400
1HP & up went to Marathon/Century 800-541-7191

You don't want to know what happened when I called each of those.

The bearing replacement on an electric motor is usually straightforward
and if it's some years old, you may consider replacing the motor capacitor
or capacitors if there are start and a run capacitors.

I'm familiar with the "bulge" of the electrolytic starting caps but I don't
see one in this motor (it could be internal - but probably not) - but
that's a good idea to keep in mind for what to purchase ahead of time in
addition to the bearings.

I can't yet find a parts diagram where Riegel Beloit told me that this
motor was specially made for Marathon and then for Jacuzzi Brothers, so a
parts diagram may be hard to find based on the model number alone.

There are websites that go into more detail with pictures on
servicing pump and pressure tank systems.
https://tinyurl.com/yatp85n7
https://tinyurl.com/y8dugtml

Thanks for those URLs. As noted, I've replaced and rebuilt motors before,
where the main issue is that of downtime so I want to source the bearings
first. Once the bearings are in my hands, they're easy to source but it
takes time if they're not standard sizes - so that's why I'm seeking a
parts diagram first.

It's been several years since I was able to walk and work but when I was working, I would go to one of several motor shops other than Grainger to get parts for motors and pumps. The motor shops had a lot of knowledgeable guys working the counter who could help customers and tradesmen because they had seen it all. The motor shops also did pump repair in addition to electric motor repair. I don't know what size city you're in but here in Birmingham, Al there is a Johnstone, a W.W. Grainger and a half dozen independent industrial supply houses where me and the guys would go to get the repair parts needed for various pumps and motors. The electrical supply houses also carried various motors and pumps or the parts were a phone call away. I kind of miss working. o_O

[8~{} Uncle Frustrated Monster

On 14 Aug 2018 08:24:21 GMT, dpb wrote:

'Cuz it's clear he really _doesn't_ know how just how it works nor does
he even recognize what some of the pieces-parts are so doesn't
understand what is/isn't possibly significant...and appears to be one of
those that doesn't do anything until has studied it to satisfaction
whether it needs study or not...

You are correct that I didn't know how it works until only about an hour
ago. For one, I didn't realize that the pressure switch had a water
connection until someone mentioned the pipe!
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9773849pump01.jpg

In my defense, I never said that I understood how it works - I was asking
how it works.

A few things that I figured out today that people told me earlier are not
intuitive, for example, the 66 PSI is static pressure that is always there,
and the 75 PSI is all that the booster pump seems to add but the whole
"front" of the motor where the impeller must be is open to not only the
bladder tank but the big water tanks too ... so that is not intuitive!
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=8642122flow01.jpg

Yes, since the system is all tied together, for the purposes of control
"pressure is pressure" at the point relatively close to the tank. He
should investigate the possibility the gauge itself is stuck; it's
immaterial to system operation but if not functional could lead to
confusing the issues thinking there's pressure when there's not...the
one here was stuck last month when we hooked up the new well--I hadn't
noticed until we opened the system and the needle didn't move...

I tested the gauge sort of by opening the water supply at the wall of the
pump house when the main house had no water pressure - and while the gauge
read 66 psi, the water pressure was fine at the wall of the pump house.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=7395493pump12.jpg

So I have no reason to disbelieve the gauge pressure, especially as there
is definitely a ten foot high column of water coming into that "front"
cast-iron end of the pump motor:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9413854pump02.jpg

I'm still curious about this so-called "level" sensor,
though...somewhere he talked about there being open tanks; I suppose if
he does have a larger reservoir besides the pressure tank somewhere else
there could be a level sensor in one or them...in that case the leads
will run out wherever that is.

This is the wiring diagram for the water level sensor:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2443640pressure10.jpg

The level sensor is EASY to test and it is working fine!

The water level sensor simply floats in the tank. When it floats, it closes
a switch in the level sensor, which closes the circuit you see above in the
wiring diagram which pulls in the relay you see below:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1279096pressure07.jpg

That level sensing part of the circuit is definitely working (and it can be
manually operated simply by pushing it in with a stick like you see in this
picture):
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1228994flow02.jpg

What isn't shown clearly is how the well pump is controlled; whether
there really is a second sensor or whether that other relay is just the
secondary to it off the pressure switch on the booster pump.

The well pump that is 500 feet underground has its own curcuit breaker, and
it has its own relay plus it has a box to determine when it's free running
(i.e., no water in the cavity 500 feet down) and it has a timer box also.

The well pump circuit breaker is well marked in this picture and the three
right-most boxes are all for the well pump (they have nothing to do with
the booster pump).
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=7831116pressure09.jpg

The well pump is easy to test as it goes on and off all the time.
It won't go on if the tanks are full (that's what the second of the black
relays are for) and it won't go on if there is no water in the cavity 500
feet down (it will spin freely and one of those two boxes will detect the
current change and shut it down) and it seems to also have a timer (I think
that's the third box).

On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 5:11:26 PM UTC-4, Arlen Holder wrote:
On 14 Aug 2018 07:28:42 GMT, dpb wrote:

Where do the leads for what you keep calling a level switch relay come
from? There's got to be _something_ for it if it indeed is anything
more than interposing relay.

The setup is only now starting to make sense to me now that folks explained
how the pressure switch works and where it was!
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4252649pump04.jpg

The pressure switch was in plain sight all along - but I thought it was
just a relay of some sort (which it is - but it's more a pressure switch):
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6939192pump06.jpg

This is the fusebox panel (which contains circuits for the well pump also):
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=7831116pressure09.jpg

There are two "relays" that must be closed in order for the pressure pump
(aka booster pump, aka GE Jet Pump Motor) to turn on:
1. The water tanks must have water in them
2. The pressure must drop below a given preset value

You can see the first relay in this picture where it's the relay on the
left (ignore the right relay - that's a relay for the well pump itself):
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1279096pressure07.jpg

It's hard to notice from just that photo, but that left-most relay is
pulled in an eighth of an inch when the fuse panel allows electricity.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2443640pressure10.jpg

This is exactly what is supposed to happen - which indicates that the big
water tanks themselves have enough water in them as there is an "empty"
switch that will *open* that circuit if there isn't enough water. Of this
I'm positive as I had issues in the past when the tank ran dry due to me
forgetting to turn the power back on so I climbed on top of the big water
tanks and pulled that level sensing switch out and flipped it upside down
and the booster pump started working when I did that.

The second relay is, of course, the pressure switch & relay which is
attached to the booster pump motor.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9773849pump01.jpg

It's not a relay, it's simply a pressure activated switch.

On 8/14/2018 3:58 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
....

I tested the gauge pressure just now by turning off the power and then
running the garden hoses at the house until they petered out.

Interestingly, at the booster pump shed, the hose on the wall did NOT peter
out, as the pressure gauge barely dropped from a bit over 70psi ....
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6541228pump03.jpg
to about 66 psi when the water was an unusable dribble at the house
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5704779pump11.jpg Gauge at 66psi

I could tell that the blue booster tank was 'empty' as I could tilt it by
hand ever so slightly when it is empty but I can't budge it when it is
full.

And yet, when I turned on the faucet on the pump house wall, it was fine!
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=7395493pump12.jpg

So that gauge pressure is really almost completely input pressure!

It's quite possible it always reads the same pressure because it's
frozen up...and/or the orifice in the base is plugged.

The gage appears to be working as there was plenty of pressure (i.e.,
66psi) "at" the booster pump shed - but none a few hundred feet away at the
house.

So it appears that the "static pressure" of a full tank of water in the
10,000 gallon tanks is about 65psi. The booster pump boosts that up so that
the water won't just dribble at the house.
....

Water static head is 1 psi/2.3 ft elevation so that would require 65/2.3
= 28 ft height above that point.

That experiment illustrates the point raised before of you have
extremely high pressure losses in the distribution system it appears or
the house is up on a hill, maybe?

--

On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 5:40:52 PM UTC-4, Arlen Holder wrote:
On 14 Aug 2018 08:24:21 GMT, dpb wrote:

'Cuz it's clear he really _doesn't_ know how just how it works nor does
he even recognize what some of the pieces-parts are so doesn't
understand what is/isn't possibly significant...and appears to be one of
those that doesn't do anything until has studied it to satisfaction
whether it needs study or not...

You are correct that I didn't know how it works until only about an hour
ago. For one, I didn't realize that the pressure switch had a water
connection until someone mentioned the pipe!
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9773849pump01.jpg

In my defense, I never said that I understood how it works - I was asking
how it works.

A few things that I figured out today that people told me earlier are not
intuitive, for example, the 66 PSI is static pressure that is always there,

Those water tanks must be mighty high and/or mighty high up a hill to
get 66 PSI without a pump.





and the 75 PSI is all that the booster pump seems to add but the whole
"front" of the motor where the impeller must be is open to not only the
bladder tank but the big water tanks too ... so that is not intuitive!
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=8642122flow01.jpg


Looks like a typical pump to me and it's old.

On 14 Aug 2018 14:43:02 GMT, trader_4 wrote:

It's not a relay, it's simply a pressure activated switch.

OK. Actually, you have to be right - so thanks for clarifying that as there
is no transformer that I can see to make a magnetic "switch".

The main question now is where to check for voltage:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6939192pump06.jpg

Obviously the green is a common ground.
There are two blue wires going to the motor.
It's hard to tell colors from that picture so I might clean them up a bit
with the power off.

The two black appear to be the input lines but it's hard to tell from that
picture.

Nonetheless, with a common ground, it makes sense to have four lines, where
two are likely the input from the fuse panel and two are the output to the
motor.

I'll clean it up a bit and check the voltages, where I would expect to have
220VAC on the input at all times that the water tanks are full but nothing
on the output until the pressure drops to somewhere less than 70 psi.

On 14 Aug 2018 14:50:59 GMT, trader_4 wrote:

Those water tanks must be mighty high and/or mighty high up a hill to
get 66 PSI without a pump.

The water tanks are in parallel with each other and they are definitely on
the same concrete platform as the pump house so their water height is all
that matters as they are directly behind the booster pump shed and on the
same concrete platform.

I'm guessing that they're 10 feet high ... they may be a bit taller ... but
not 15 feet.

On 14 Aug 2018 08:41:30 GMT, trader_4 wrote:

But again, seems to me the only thing he really needs to do is see if
there is voltage on that pump when it's not working.

Agreed. It wasn't until about an hour ago that I understood even what the
components were.

He said it was
squealing, but I guess it could also squeal if it was out of water,
so maybe that's a possibility too.

The booster pump was never out of water (the tanks are completely full) but
the squeal is disturbing - but hasn't returned - even when the pump
wouldn't turn on.

You are correct though that the only thing left for debugging is to figure
out if it's the pressure switch or the motor itself where it would be
unlikely to be the motor but the voltage at the pressure switch when the
motor is supposed to turn on will tell me everything.

Come to think about it, being out
of water would also fit with it happening only when it's used for
irrigation. But that could also fit with a motor going bad, the
problem showing up when it's used the most. You'd also think that
if the water wasn't flowing, one of the first things you'd check would
be if the tanks were empty, but who knows.

The tanks are as full as they can get. They can't get fuller.
So water level isn't the problem.

I think you're right that the only thing left to debug is right at that
pressure switch.

On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 5:50:41 PM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 8/14/2018 3:58 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
...

I tested the gauge pressure just now by turning off the power and then
running the garden hoses at the house until they petered out.

Interestingly, at the booster pump shed, the hose on the wall did NOT peter
out, as the pressure gauge barely dropped from a bit over 70psi ....
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6541228pump03.jpg
to about 66 psi when the water was an unusable dribble at the house
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5704779pump11.jpg Gauge at 66psi

I could tell that the blue booster tank was 'empty' as I could tilt it by
hand ever so slightly when it is empty but I can't budge it when it is
full.

And yet, when I turned on the faucet on the pump house wall, it was fine!
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=7395493pump12.jpg

So that gauge pressure is really almost completely input pressure!

It's quite possible it always reads the same pressure because it's
frozen up...and/or the orifice in the base is plugged.

The gage appears to be working as there was plenty of pressure (i.e.,
66psi) "at" the booster pump shed - but none a few hundred feet away at the
house.

So it appears that the "static pressure" of a full tank of water in the
10,000 gallon tanks is about 65psi. The booster pump boosts that up so that
the water won't just dribble at the house.
...

Water static head is 1 psi/2.3 ft elevation so that would require 65/2.3
= 28 ft height above that point.

By my calculation it would take 66x2.3 = 152 ft. A very tall tank and/or
way up a hill. Or his pressure gauge is kaput or something else is going
on, like he's measuring it with pressure still in the tank.



That experiment illustrates the point raised before of you have
extremely high pressure losses in the distribution system it appears or
the house is up on a hill, maybe?

--

On 14 Aug 2018 09:58:59 GMT, dpb wrote:

That's a good call probably on the low-capacity well and reason for
storage tank(s)--I'm not used to having to do that; there's always
plenty of water in a hole here for domestic wells...so the trickle over
longer time concept doesn't come into play and don't actively think
about that kind of installation. The level/float switch then does make
perfect sense to control the actual pump.

You are completely correct that the well will never pump water for more
than about five minutes before running dry.

Then the well will sit idle for a timed period (I think it's set to
something like 20 minutes or so). Then it tries again.

It takes many days (sometimes weeks) to fill the big water tanks, depending
on drought conditions.

I think the biggest source of confusion was I had no clue how this booster
pump setup worked because it never gave me a reason to care before.

This is the first time it had a problem. I think I understand almost
everything now ... what I don't understand exactly I can figure out - which
is the wiring at that relay.

The plan right now is simple ... now that you helped me understand how it
works. I will simply test the voltage while it's working, and then test the
voltage when it's not.

The one-time sound is an issue of concern ... so it still may be related.

On 8/14/2018 4:40 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
On 14 Aug 2018 08:24:21 GMT, dpb wrote:
....

I'm still curious about this so-called "level" sensor,
though...somewhere he talked about there being open tanks; I suppose if
he does have a larger reservoir besides the pressure tank somewhere else
there could be a level sensor in one or them...in that case the leads
will run out wherever that is.

This is the wiring diagram for the water level sensor:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2443640pressure10.jpg

The level sensor is EASY to test and it is working fine!

The water level sensor simply floats in the tank. When it floats, it closes
a switch in the level sensor, which closes the circuit you see above in the
wiring diagram which pulls in the relay you see below:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1279096pressure07.jpg
....

Well, (so to speak ), that Q? was raised before we knew there _were_
two pumps and that there was a large storage tank elsewhere...as in the
followup sidebar w/ T4, that is _not_ a typical residential intallation
here nor for most of the other ahr regulars I believe.

Once those facts were revealed, _then_ all became much clearer as to
what the system is and how it must operate.

You've got to be able to pump what water there is over a long-enough
time to have sufficient reserve -- although 10 kgal is quite a reserve
for just a residence -- unless you have long(ish) periods where the well
is dry or nearly so or do you really irrigate that much on a regular basis?

I'm still curious as to what the actual down-hole pump size info is
altho it has no bearing on any of the issues, just wondering what kind
of actual well capacity might be...

--

On 14 Aug 2018 10:11:28 GMT, dpb wrote:

Wonder if he knows what the down-hole pump capacity/HP rating
is...that'd give an idea what its output is.

The new well here put out 75 gpm w/ an almost wore-out oilfield 10 hp
rig for the test/cleanout run...it probably has at least 3X the
capacity; put a 3 in the hole that's between 25-30 gpm which is plenty
for the house and cattle...

Holy ****. The tank input line has a flow gauge which goes round and round
which NEVER indicates more than about 6 gallons a minute and which can only
do that fast pace for only a few minutes before it shuts down.

On 8/14/2018 4:54 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
On 14 Aug 2018 14:50:59 GMT, trader_4 wrote:

Those water tanks must be mighty high and/or mighty high up a hill to
get 66 PSI without a pump.

The water tanks are in parallel with each other and they are definitely on
the same concrete platform as the pump house so their water height is all
that matters as they are directly behind the booster pump shed and on the
same concrete platform.

I'm guessing that they're 10 feet high ... they may be a bit taller ... but
not 15 feet.

Well, that won't generate anything close to 65 psi; more like 25-30 at 1
psi/2.3 ft head.

The pressure is coming from the tank bladder airfill that should be
about 68 psi if the cutoff is 70 psi -- which just about matches
observation.

--

On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 6:05:37 PM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 8/14/2018 4:40 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
On 14 Aug 2018 08:24:21 GMT, dpb wrote:
...

I'm still curious about this so-called "level" sensor,
though...somewhere he talked about there being open tanks; I suppose if
he does have a larger reservoir besides the pressure tank somewhere else
there could be a level sensor in one or them...in that case the leads
will run out wherever that is.

This is the wiring diagram for the water level sensor:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2443640pressure10.jpg

The level sensor is EASY to test and it is working fine!

The water level sensor simply floats in the tank. When it floats, it closes
a switch in the level sensor, which closes the circuit you see above in the
wiring diagram which pulls in the relay you see below:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1279096pressure07.jpg
...

Well, (so to speak ), that Q? was raised before we knew there _were_
two pumps and that there was a large storage tank elsewhere...as in the
followup sidebar w/ T4, that is _not_ a typical residential intallation
here nor for most of the other ahr regulars I believe.

Once those facts were revealed, _then_ all became much clearer as to
what the system is and how it must operate.

You've got to be able to pump what water there is over a long-enough
time to have sufficient reserve -- although 10 kgal is quite a reserve
for just a residence -- unless you have long(ish) periods where the well
is dry or nearly so or do you really irrigate that much on a regular basis?

Again going back to our previous poster friend, I think he was in CA
and they had a requirement that where he lived in the hills that a
certain amount of water was required to be stored for use in a fire.
That could be part of the need for so much capacity.





I'm still curious as to what the actual down-hole pump size info is
altho it has no bearing on any of the issues, just wondering what kind
of actual well capacity might be...

--

On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 4:07:09 PM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 8:01:46 AM UTC-4, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 10:54:46 PM UTC-5, Arlen Holder wrote:
On 13 Aug 2018 18:35:11 GMT, Uncle Monster wrote:

Go fellate yourself Traitor_4ever.
I didn't see you offering any help.
You lack the expertise to assist the fellow or to be concerned
about his safety anyway so your best bet is to STFU.

Let's stop bickering.
It's just foolish to say "call a plumber" on this newsgroup.
You got all upset that I said that - and I understand.

I apologize if you're all upset.

You think I'm gonna kill myself, and I told you I'm an EE but that doesn't
(a) give me immunity from electrocution, nor does it (b) teach me anything
about how the pressure switch works, and (c) it doesn't help me figure out
what "frame" this pump happens to use.

You can continue to be afraid of your own shadow, but I'm not.

All I need, for now, is helpful advice.
Your advice, so far, has not been helpful.

To be helpful, if you actually have experience you claim, then you would
easily be able to answer these three basic questions.
1. How does that pressure switch work (so I can troubleshoot it)?
2. If I replace the switch or pump, what specs matter?
3. If I replace just the bearings, what else would you order to replace?

Most pressure switches work off the air pressure from the air trapped in the top of the water tank.

Baloney. And it's a good thing too, because most tanks have relied
on bladders that contain the air for a long time already. The
switch would have to be involved with the bag, it isn't. The pressure
switch is on the tank plumbing and reacts to the water pressure.
It would work if you put it in the air part of a tank without a bladder,
because the pressure is the same. IDK how you'd put it in a modern tank
with a bladder and get to the air.

Most pressure switches made for well water and pressure tank systems share similar characteristics.

Maybe because they are essentially the same thing. Around here, if you
have a well, you have a pump and pressure tank.

The switches are adjustable to the desired pressure and control the contactor(high current power relay) that supplies power to the pump.

Again, there is no relay in a typical water pump. The pressure
switch simply is the switch for the AC to the motor.

As far as the pump or motor goes, there should be nameplates on the units that have the specifications,

He's posted the info, pics, etc. yesterday.

otherwise, you should be able to look up the specs using the model numbers and cross-reference the equipment to a different brand or similar equipment. The bearing replacement on an electric motor is usually straightforward and if it's some years old, you may consider replacing the motor capacitor or capacitors if there are start and a run capacitors. There are websites that go into more detail with pictures on servicing pump and pressure tank systems. ^_^

https://tinyurl.com/yatp85n7

https://tinyurl.com/y8dugtml

[8~{} Uncle Pumpped Monster

You were doing better making snide remarks, maybe you should stick
to that.

Go fornicate yourself Traitor_4ever. Perhaps you should blame it on President Trump? I know you believe you're an expert on everything but you're not. You're an insufferable unintelligent buttocks who should just STFU and stop making a fool out of yourself. Nuff said. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Amused Monster

On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 6:15:36 PM UTC-4, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 4:07:09 PM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 8:01:46 AM UTC-4, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 10:54:46 PM UTC-5, Arlen Holder wrote:
On 13 Aug 2018 18:35:11 GMT, Uncle Monster wrote:

Go fellate yourself Traitor_4ever.
I didn't see you offering any help.
You lack the expertise to assist the fellow or to be concerned
about his safety anyway so your best bet is to STFU.

Let's stop bickering.
It's just foolish to say "call a plumber" on this newsgroup.
You got all upset that I said that - and I understand.

I apologize if you're all upset.

You think I'm gonna kill myself, and I told you I'm an EE but that doesn't
(a) give me immunity from electrocution, nor does it (b) teach me anything
about how the pressure switch works, and (c) it doesn't help me figure out
what "frame" this pump happens to use.

You can continue to be afraid of your own shadow, but I'm not.

All I need, for now, is helpful advice.
Your advice, so far, has not been helpful.

To be helpful, if you actually have experience you claim, then you would
easily be able to answer these three basic questions.
1. How does that pressure switch work (so I can troubleshoot it)?
2. If I replace the switch or pump, what specs matter?
3. If I replace just the bearings, what else would you order to replace?

Most pressure switches work off the air pressure from the air trapped in the top of the water tank.

Baloney. And it's a good thing too, because most tanks have relied
on bladders that contain the air for a long time already. The
switch would have to be involved with the bag, it isn't. The pressure
switch is on the tank plumbing and reacts to the water pressure.
It would work if you put it in the air part of a tank without a bladder,
because the pressure is the same. IDK how you'd put it in a modern tank
with a bladder and get to the air.

Most pressure switches made for well water and pressure tank systems share similar characteristics.

Maybe because they are essentially the same thing. Around here, if you
have a well, you have a pump and pressure tank.

The switches are adjustable to the desired pressure and control the contactor(high current power relay) that supplies power to the pump.

Again, there is no relay in a typical water pump. The pressure
switch simply is the switch for the AC to the motor.

As far as the pump or motor goes, there should be nameplates on the units that have the specifications,

He's posted the info, pics, etc. yesterday.

otherwise, you should be able to look up the specs using the model numbers and cross-reference the equipment to a different brand or similar equipment. The bearing replacement on an electric motor is usually straightforward and if it's some years old, you may consider replacing the motor capacitor or capacitors if there are start and a run capacitors. There are websites that go into more detail with pictures on servicing pump and pressure tank systems. ^_^

https://tinyurl.com/yatp85n7

https://tinyurl.com/y8dugtml

[8~{} Uncle Pumpped Monster

You were doing better making snide remarks, maybe you should stick
to that.

Go fornicate yourself Traitor_4ever. Perhaps you should blame it on President Trump? I know you believe you're an expert on everything but you're not. You're an insufferable unintelligent buttocks who should just STFU and stop making a fool out of yourself. Nuff said. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Amused Monster

Oh my, if you're so upset now, you better take some extra pills before
you look at the pics Arlen just posted of the pressure switch and how it's
connected via tubing directly to the water at the pump. Which is again
exactly what I said.

On 8/14/2018 5:01 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 5:50:41 PM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
....


Water static head is 1 psi/2.3 ft elevation so that would require 65/2.3
= 28 ft height above that point.

By my calculation it would take 66x2.3 = 152 ft. A very tall tank and/or
way up a hill. Or his pressure gauge is kaput or something else is going
on, like he's measuring it with pressure still in the tank.
....

Duh! Thanks.

The pressure is from the bladder tank since the rest of the system is
still full. If it's set approx correctly if he's operating at 50-70 psi
the empty air pressure should be ~68 psi or -2 psi from shutoff setpoint.

That makes pretty close to observed so I'd guess that's functional...if
he were to totally open the system, of course, that would go away but
he's got the supply from the reserve tanks to keep pipes full even when
the little tank isn't even if the well pump isn't running, either.

--

On 14 Aug 2018 15:05:29 GMT, dpb wrote:

Well, (so to speak ), that Q? was raised before we knew there _were_
two pumps and that there was a large storage tank elsewhere...as in the
followup sidebar w/ T4, that is _not_ a typical residential intallation
here nor for most of the other ahr regulars I believe.

It's my fault for not understanding the booster pump system well enough to
explain how it works.

I just checked the power wiring to and from the pressure switch and it's as
one would logically expect, with 120 volts each on the two input black
wires to the common green ground and essentially zero volts on the two
inside blue wires to the motor when the gauge pressure is at 75psi.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1169657flow04.jpg

Once those facts were revealed, _then_ all became much clearer as to
what the system is and how it must operate.

The only electrical thing to test now is what happens, electrically, at
this pressure switch, when the gauge pressure drops to around 65 psi.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=7459999flow03.jpg

You've got to be able to pump what water there is over a long-enough
time to have sufficient reserve -- although 10 kgal is quite a reserve
for just a residence -- unless you have long(ish) periods where the well
is dry or nearly so or do you really irrigate that much on a regular basis?

Codes are now that everyone has to have a separate tank for fire alone,
where much of that 10,000 gallons is already reserved for fire via the
designs of the low-water cutoff switches.

I'm still curious as to what the actual down-hole pump size info is
altho it has no bearing on any of the issues, just wondering what kind
of actual well capacity might be...

I don't know. The wells never put out more than 6 gallons a minute.
And even that only happens for a few minutes at a time only.

On 14 Aug 2018 15:08:57 GMT, dpb wrote:

Well, that won't generate anything close to 65 psi; more like 25-30 at 1
psi/2.3 ft head.

The pressure is coming from the tank bladder airfill that should be
about 68 psi if the cutoff is 70 psi -- which just about matches
observation.

Thanks for running that calculation.

The only thing left to troubleshoot now that the system is figured out is
the voltage on the pressure switch when it's supposed to go on.

Right now, moments ago, when it was in the static pressurized state, it had
120VAC on each input black lead and essentially noise on the two blue leads
to the motor (all to the green common ground).
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1169657flow04.jpg

Do you know if there is a way to bypass the pressure switch without
jumpers? It's not important if there isn't a way to test it manually.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=7459999flow03.jpg

I'll just shut the electricity or let the irrigation run for a while until
the booster is forced to turn back on. When the booster turns back on, I'll
test the voltage. If it doesn't turn back on, I'll test the voltage.

I don't think I will have anything to report until I run that test.

On 8/14/2018 5:06 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
On 14 Aug 2018 10:11:28 GMT, dpb wrote:

Wonder if he knows what the down-hole pump capacity/HP rating
is...that'd give an idea what its output is.

The new well here put out 75 gpm w/ an almost wore-out oilfield 10 hp
rig for the test/cleanout run...it probably has at least 3X the
capacity; put a 3 in the hole that's between 25-30 gpm which is plenty
for the house and cattle...

Holy ****. The tank input line has a flow gauge which goes round and round
which NEVER indicates more than about 6 gallons a minute and which can only
do that fast pace for only a few minutes before it shuts down.

That's a small well here...irrigation wells may be as much as 800-1000
gpm. altho more common in the lower hundreds than above 500 any more as
water table has dropped.

OK, that and your follow-up on capacity reserve answers the Q?. It's
almost a dry hole but while fortunately it's not an issue of such
limited supply not familiar with personally I do know there are large
areas in particularly mountainous regions without large aquifers to tap
into.

--

On 8/14/2018 5:49 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
On 14 Aug 2018 15:08:57 GMT, dpb wrote:
....

The only thing left to troubleshoot now that the system is figured out is
the voltage on the pressure switch when it's supposed to go on.

Well, there's _always_ voltage at the switch; the only question is does
it close and are the contacts any good to get to the other side...

Right now, moments ago, when it was in the static pressurized state, it had
120VAC on each input black lead and essentially noise on the two blue leads
to the motor (all to the green common ground).
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1169657flow04.jpg

Well, did you not check for 240V _across_ the two blacks??? One would
presume nobody's moved anything and got both on the same phase, but...

Do you know if there is a way to bypass the pressure switch without
jumpers? ...


Sure, just take a screwdriver with non-conductive handle and push down
to close the contacts...let go and it'll reopen if pressure cutoff or
run 'til builds pressure if drops while closed.

--

On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 5:34:31 PM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 6:15:36 PM UTC-4, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 4:07:09 PM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 8:01:46 AM UTC-4, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 10:54:46 PM UTC-5, Arlen Holder wrote:
On 13 Aug 2018 18:35:11 GMT, Uncle Monster wrote:

Go fellate yourself Traitor_4ever.
I didn't see you offering any help.
You lack the expertise to assist the fellow or to be concerned
about his safety anyway so your best bet is to STFU.

Let's stop bickering.
It's just foolish to say "call a plumber" on this newsgroup.
You got all upset that I said that - and I understand.

I apologize if you're all upset.

You think I'm gonna kill myself, and I told you I'm an EE but that doesn't
(a) give me immunity from electrocution, nor does it (b) teach me anything
about how the pressure switch works, and (c) it doesn't help me figure out
what "frame" this pump happens to use.

You can continue to be afraid of your own shadow, but I'm not.

All I need, for now, is helpful advice.
Your advice, so far, has not been helpful.

To be helpful, if you actually have experience you claim, then you would
easily be able to answer these three basic questions.
1. How does that pressure switch work (so I can troubleshoot it)?
2. If I replace the switch or pump, what specs matter?
3. If I replace just the bearings, what else would you order to replace?

Most pressure switches work off the air pressure from the air trapped in the top of the water tank.

Baloney. And it's a good thing too, because most tanks have relied
on bladders that contain the air for a long time already. The
switch would have to be involved with the bag, it isn't. The pressure
switch is on the tank plumbing and reacts to the water pressure.
It would work if you put it in the air part of a tank without a bladder,
because the pressure is the same. IDK how you'd put it in a modern tank
with a bladder and get to the air.

Most pressure switches made for well water and pressure tank systems share similar characteristics.

Maybe because they are essentially the same thing. Around here, if you
have a well, you have a pump and pressure tank.

The switches are adjustable to the desired pressure and control the contactor(high current power relay) that supplies power to the pump.

Again, there is no relay in a typical water pump. The pressure
switch simply is the switch for the AC to the motor.

As far as the pump or motor goes, there should be nameplates on the units that have the specifications,

He's posted the info, pics, etc. yesterday.

otherwise, you should be able to look up the specs using the model numbers and cross-reference the equipment to a different brand or similar equipment. The bearing replacement on an electric motor is usually straightforward and if it's some years old, you may consider replacing the motor capacitor or capacitors if there are start and a run capacitors. There are websites that go into more detail with pictures on servicing pump and pressure tank systems. ^_^

https://tinyurl.com/yatp85n7

https://tinyurl.com/y8dugtml

[8~{} Uncle Pumpped Monster

You were doing better making snide remarks, maybe you should stick
to that.

Go fornicate yourself Traitor_4ever. Perhaps you should blame it on President Trump? I know you believe you're an expert on everything but you're not. You're an insufferable unintelligent buttocks who should just STFU and stop making a fool out of yourself. Nuff said. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Amused Monster

Oh my, if you're so upset now, you better take some extra pills before
you look at the pics Arlen just posted of the pressure switch and how it's
connected via tubing directly to the water at the pump. Which is again
exactly what I said.

Are you through fornicating yourself yet? When you get done with that you can fellate yourself. Don't strain yourself. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Amused Monster

On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 6:49:35 PM UTC-4, Arlen Holder wrote:
On 14 Aug 2018 15:08:57 GMT, dpb wrote:

Well, that won't generate anything close to 65 psi; more like 25-30 at 1
psi/2.3 ft head.

The pressure is coming from the tank bladder airfill that should be
about 68 psi if the cutoff is 70 psi -- which just about matches
observation.

Thanks for running that calculation.

The only thing left to troubleshoot now that the system is figured out is
the voltage on the pressure switch when it's supposed to go on.

Right now, moments ago, when it was in the static pressurized state, it had
120VAC on each input black lead and essentially noise on the two blue leads
to the motor (all to the green common ground).
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1169657flow04.jpg

Do you know if there is a way to bypass the pressure switch without
jumpers? It's not important if there isn't a way to test it manually.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=7459999flow03.jpg

I'll just shut the electricity or let the irrigation run for a while until
the booster is forced to turn back on. When the booster turns back on, I'll
test the voltage. If it doesn't turn back on, I'll test the voltage.

I don't think I will have anything to report until I run that test.

BTW, since you're interested in what you really have there, it's a jet pump, but it's being used like a conventional pump. The second connection for the pressure side pipe that would normally go down the well isn't used.

On 14 Aug 2018 14:13:31 GMT, trader_4 wrote:

It's not a relay, it's just a pressure switch. You say you're an electrical
engineer and you can't identify a switch vs a relay?

I admit I goofed calling it a relay. I have no excuse as it's a "pressure
switch".

I didn't look closely and simply assumed there were coils there, like there
must be on the relay that gets pulled in when the storage tanks have water
in them.

Looking closely, it appears to work like thus:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=8642122flow01.jpg

a. The pressure gauge is on the OUTPUT of the motor impeller
b. That is also on the output of the pressure bladder
c. So, gauge pressure is bladder pressure which, interestingly has to also
be the pressure on the pipes coming OUT of the storage tanks
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6541228pump03.jpg

This makes no sense to pressurize the storage tanks from down below the
water level - but the only way that is not the case is if there is a check
valve INSIDE that cast iron front of the motor near the impeller.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9413854pump02.jpg

Outside the booster pump house is a "relay" that will pull itself in when
the water level is high enough to operate the booster pump:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=3441065flow02.jpg

Inside the booster pump house is a "pressure switch", which gets its
pressure reading from the impeller cast-iron side of the motor via a hollow
pipe.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9773849pump01.jpg

It then opens or closes this switch where the two input black wires are
each 120VAC to the green common ground and the two output blue wires are to
the booster pump motor.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1169657flow04.jpg

I don't think I'll have anything to report back until I measure the voltage
when it's supposed to turn on, and even then, it has to fail for me to find
the problem.

But I at least now know that those two blue wires to ground are where to
look!

On 14 Aug 2018 16:12:22 GMT, trader_4 wrote:

BTW, since you're interested in what you really have there,
it's a jet pump, but it's being used like a conventional pump.
The second connection for the pressure side pipe that would
normally go down the well isn't used.

Wow. All that just from this crappy picture?
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=8580487pump08.jpg

You are almost certainly correct though, as GE pointed me to Riegel Beloit
who bought the GE motor division 260-416-5400 who told me to go to GE
Marathon/Century 800-541-7191 who told me that GE made this motor only for
Marathon who made it only for Jacuzzi Brothers as a custom built motor
(that's from memory of the phone calls today looking for a parts diagram).

So can I just buy any 1HP (SF 1.4) 56C frame motor?
The impeller would also need to be inspected when the motor is removed.

BTW, the bladder tank spec is here.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9829184flow05.jpg
Model WX302, Well-X-Troll
Factory precharge 38 psi
Maximum working pressure 125 psi
Test pressure 125 psi

So it's working at about half its maximum pressure and roughly about double
its precharge pressure.

This says it's 86 gallons.
https://www.amazon.com/Amtrol-WX-302.../dp/B005VPQ0D0

On 8/14/2018 6:44 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
On 14 Aug 2018 16:12:22 GMT, trader_4 wrote:

BTW, since you're interested in what you really have there,
it's a jet pump, but it's being used like a conventional pump.
The second connection for the pressure side pipe that would
normally go down the well isn't used.

Wow. All that just from this crappy picture?
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=8580487pump08.jpg
....

Well, that one doesn't take much; it's a jet pump but there's only the
input and one discharge port being used so that pretty-much tells the
story that the down-hole isn't being used (not to mention we also now
know that the hole if 500-ft or so w/ a puny little submersible).

On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 7:45:00 PM UTC-4, Arlen Holder wrote:
On 14 Aug 2018 16:12:22 GMT, trader_4 wrote:

BTW, since you're interested in what you really have there,
it's a jet pump, but it's being used like a conventional pump.
The second connection for the pressure side pipe that would
normally go down the well isn't used.

Wow. All that just from this crappy picture?
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=8580487pump08.jpg

You are almost certainly correct though, as GE pointed me to Riegel Beloit
who bought the GE motor division 260-416-5400 who told me to go to GE
Marathon/Century 800-541-7191 who told me that GE made this motor only for
Marathon who made it only for Jacuzzi Brothers as a custom built motor
(that's from memory of the phone calls today looking for a parts diagram)..

So can I just buy any 1HP (SF 1.4) 56C frame motor?
The impeller would also need to be inspected when the motor is removed.


Since you need the pump for water for the house, I would probably just buy a whole new pump. Is it worth it to buy a motor, tear it apart, then find out you have a problem with the pump section, getting it back together, need another part, etc? Looks like you got your service life out of it. That is assuming you figure out the problem is the pump. If you have some time, you might find a deal on one online, even ebay.



BTW, the bladder tank spec is here.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9829184flow05.jpg
Model WX302, Well-X-Troll
Factory precharge 38 psi
Maximum working pressure 125 psi
Test pressure 125 psi

So it's working at about half its maximum pressure and roughly about double
its precharge pressure.

This says it's 86 gallons.
https://www.amazon.com/Amtrol-WX-302.../dp/B005VPQ0D0

On 8/14/2018 7:33 PM, trader_4 wrote:
....

Since you need the pump for water for the house, I would probably just buy a whole new pump. Is it worth it to buy a motor, tear it apart, then find out you have a problem with the pump section, getting it back together, need another part, etc? Looks like you got your service life out of it. That is assuming you figure out the problem is the pump. If you have some time, you might find a deal on one online, even ebay.

....

+1

It doesn't even needs must be a jet pump altho if can find one of same
form factor to fit the existing plumbing makes swap-out simpler.

I replaced the isolation valve when hooking up the new well since old
one had gotten where bypassed pretty badly (not too unexpected since it
had been there since 1964 I believe). Just 2" galvanized but it took
both of us and a 4-ft cheater to break the union open to get it out of
there, and this well house is a tight block building much more
weatherproof than that shed so things are in pretty-near pristine
appearance.

I was going to put a ball valve in there but after that decided the
fewer joints to break loose the better so we replaced it with another
gate valve as they have standard length so didn't have to break any more
joints free...besides, the well folks had been around almost a week by
then and had service call come in for others who were out of water in
100 F temps so let 'em get on their way soonest seemed reasonable at the
time.

It'll probably be a chore when he gets around to breaking this system
open, too, so the less to be done the better is probably _agoodthing_
(tm) ...

--

On 8/14/18 6:44 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
On 14 Aug 2018 16:12:22 GMT, trader_4 wrote:

BTW, since you're interested in what you really have there,
it's a jet pump, but it's being used like a conventional pump.
The second connection for the pressure side pipe that would
normally go down the well isn't used.

Wow. All that just from this crappy picture?
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=8580487pump08.jpg

You are almost certainly correct though, as GE pointed me to Riegel Beloit
who bought the GE motor division 260-416-5400 who told me to go to GE
Marathon/Century 800-541-7191 who told me that GE made this motor only for
Marathon who made it only for Jacuzzi Brothers as a custom built motor
(that's from memory of the phone calls today looking for a parts diagram).

So can I just buy any 1HP (SF 1.4) 56C frame motor?
The impeller would also need to be inspected when the motor is removed.

BTW, the bladder tank spec is here.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9829184flow05.jpg
Model WX302, Well-X-Troll
Factory precharge 38 psi
Maximum working pressure 125 psi
Test pressure 125 psi

So it's working at about half its maximum pressure and roughly about double
its precharge pressure.

This says it's 86 gallons.
https://www.amazon.com/Amtrol-WX-302.../dp/B005VPQ0D0

The next question you should ask is "How do I adjust the air
pressure in my
bladder tank?"
https://www.ehow.com/how_6025664_adjust-air-pressure-bladder-tank.html
The temptation to ask if college boys know how to air car tires was
really strong
but I resisted it. There's always Flip Wilson's excuse.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SLifea3NHQ

On 14 Aug 2018 17:20:31 GMT, dpb wrote:

Well, that one doesn't take much; it's a jet pump but there's only the
input and one discharge port being used so that pretty-much tells the
story that the down-hole isn't being used (not to mention we also now
know that the hole if 500-ft or so w/ a puny little submersible).

Well, it might not take much for you, but I didn't notice any of that!

I did notice something funny in the pressure switch today, which does seem
to have an electromagnet inside it (I think) which is energized only when
the power is on and when the pressure is low (I think).

I'm not sure yet, but I can make it go on and off with the power on by
moving this plate back and forth, which has two little dangled contacts.

Contacts pushed open with a stick:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4628253flow06.jpg

Contacts pushed closed with a stick:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1733078flow07.jpg

With no power, the plate will not snap back once I open it.
With power, it will snap only if the pressure is low (got to test more).
If the pressure is higher, it won't snap back if I opened it up manually.

That means there are at least three states to this contact plate when there
is power:
a. Open (I can easily manually open it and it will stay open)
b. Closed (I can push it closed but it won't stay closed)
c. Energized closed (It was originally closed and it stayed closed)

I need to test again but I have to use up the water pressure again.

BTW. The sparks at the contacts when I make or break a connection under
power are green. I normally see yellow or blue sparks in things - but these
are a very pretty green!

On 8/14/2018 7:58 PM, Gil wrote:
....

Just wanted to point out, your math is a little off. Should be 65 x 2.3
which indicates a head of 149.5 feet. ( 1 foot of headÂ* produces .43 lbs
of pressure.)
....

trader already beat you to it...

--

On 8/14/2018 5:50 PM, dpb wrote:
On 8/14/2018 3:58 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
...

I tested the gauge pressure just now by turning off the power and then
running the garden hoses at the house until they petered out.
Interestingly, at the booster pump shed, the hose on the wall did NOT
peter
out, as the pressure gauge barely dropped from a bit over 70psi ....
Â* http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6541228pump03.jpg
to about 66 psi when the water was an unusable dribble at the house
Â* http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5704779pump11.jpg Gauge at 66psi

I could tell that the blue booster tank was 'empty' as I could tilt it by
hand ever so slightly when it is empty but I can't budge it when it is
full.

And yet, when I turned on the faucet on the pump house wall, it was fine!
Â*Â* http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=7395493pump12.jpg

So that gauge pressure is really almost completely input pressure!

It's quite possible it always reads the same pressure because it's
frozen up...and/or the orifice in the base is plugged.

The gage appears to be working as there was plenty of pressure (i.e.,
66psi) "at" the booster pump shed - but none a few hundred feet away
at the
house.

So it appears that the "static pressure" of a full tank of water in the
10,000 gallon tanks is about 65psi. The booster pump boosts that up so
that
the water won't just dribble at the house.
...

Water static head is 1 psi/2.3 ft elevation so that would require 65/2.3
= 28 ft height above that point.

Just wanted to point out, your math is a little off. Should be 65 x 2.3
which indicates a head of 149.5 feet. ( 1 foot of head produces .43 lbs
of pressure.)


That experiment illustrates the point raised before of you have
extremely high pressure losses in the distribution system it appears or
the house is up on a hill, maybe?

--

On 14 Aug 2018 16:01:59 GMT, dpb wrote:

Well, there's _always_ voltage at the switch; the only question is does
it close and are the contacts any good to get to the other side...

It's pretty clear now that the two outside (black) wires are the two 120VAC
phases coming in, and the two inside (blue) wires are the two phases going
into the motor.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1169657flow04.jpg

Well, did you not check for 240V _across_ the two blacks??? One would
presume nobody's moved anything and got both on the same phase, but...

Yeah. 118VAC RMS on each to the green ground when the motor is running and
236VAC RMS to each other when the motor is running, as measured on my DMM.

Interestingly, I originally checked each black incoming phase to the steel
water pipe expecting that to be grounded - but it wasn't all that good as
the voltage was around 20 volts so I used the green ground instead.

Sure, just take a screwdriver with non-conductive handle and push down
to close the contacts...let go and it'll reopen if pressure cutoff or
run 'til builds pressure if drops while closed.

Something weird happened, but wasn't repeatable, but it could be the
pressure built up.

a. I turned the circuit breaker back on
b. The motor ran
c. I checked all the voltages (which were as expected)
d. With a stick I pulled the contacts open
e. Obviously the motor stopped
f. But when I let go with the stick, I expected the contact to slam back
g. They didn't. They stayed open. Huh?
h. I pushed them closed, expecting them to stay closed
i. They didn't. They opened when I let go of pressure.
j. Huh?

What I'm "thinking" (but need to test) is that there is an electromagnet
which keeps the contacts closed (something kept them closed in step (b)
above. Maybe it was just the lack of pressure though, and not an
electromagnet.

Contacts pushed open:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4628253flow06.jpg
Contacts pushed closed:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1733078flow07.jpg contacts closed

Anyway, I'll have to test again as there seems to be three states:
a. Contacts automatically closed and they stay closed
b. Contacts pushed open and they stay open
c. Contacts pushed closed but they won't stay closed

It could depend on the pressure though... but "something" keeps the
contacts closed which didn't do it once I opened them manually.

On 8/14/2018 5:54 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
On 14 Aug 2018 14:50:59 GMT, trader_4 wrote:

Those water tanks must be mighty high and/or mighty high up a hill to
get 66 PSI without a pump.

The water tanks are in parallel with each other and they are definitely on
the same concrete platform as the pump house so their water height is all
that matters as they are directly behind the booster pump shed and on the
same concrete platform.

I'm guessing that they're 10 feet high ... they may be a bit taller ... but
not 15 feet.


If as you say, they are only approx. 10 feet, then that is only going to
create approx. 4.3 pounds of pressure to the inlet of the booster pump.
You have a duff gauge and/or a plugged line between the pressure switch
and the pump output.

On 14 Aug 2018 17:45:37 GMT, in alt.home.repair you wrote:

It doesn't even needs must be a jet pump altho if can find one of same
form factor to fit the existing plumbing makes swap-out simpler.

I'm not sure what you're saying there as your edits got garbled (it happens
to all of us), but I do AGREE that buying a motor as a spare is a good idea
given that (a) repair costs more than a motor, and (b) with the pump there
is no water pressure.

Plus, it's always handy to have an extra 1HP motor around to use as a disk
sander or whatever.

The problem of course is matching what is needed to fit nicely.
a. 1 HP (SF 1.4) is a given, as is 115/230VAC & 3450 RPM & Frame 56C.
b. The "jet pump" part seems to be in the "cast iron" head.

BTW, I realized that the model number is actually SHORTER than I posted,
because they mix the model and serial number together, it seems.

The model number seems to be: 5KC39QN
https://duckduckgo.com/?&q=5KC39QN+motor&ia=web

I'm still confused about this "jet pump" part of the spec though.

I need to learn more about this "jet pump" part because I think if I just
buy a motor, it's not a "jet pump motor" but just a "motor". The "jet pump"
part seems to be in that cast-iron head - which would likely stay since it
has all the pipes connected to it.

Can I just buy "any old" booster-pump motor that fits those basic specs?
Like, for example, this one?
https://www.sustainablesupply.com/to...rs/pump-motors

On 15 Aug 2018 01:16:45 GMT, Arlen Holder wrote:

BTW, I realized that the model number is actually SHORTER than I posted,
because they mix the model and serial number together, it seems.

The model number seems to be: 5KC39QN
https://duckduckgo.com/?&q=5KC39QN+motor&ia=web

First hit explains the model number a bit.
5KC39QN
It might even be just 5KC39 for the model.

https://shop.dreisilker.com/blog/5kcp39-motors-the-howto-guide-on-replacing-5kcp39-motors/
5 = motor
KCP = permanent split capacitor (only mine is a KC & not KCP)
39 = 48 frame motor (notice that doesn't agree with the nameplate 56C)
All 48 frame motors have a 1/2" diameter shaft and a 5-1/2" diameter body.