My outdoor water pressure booster pump occasionally won't start,
particularly after doing some irrigation watering.

It never happened before under those circumstances, but it happened twice
in the past week - where letting it sit with the breakers turned off for an
hour and then turning the breakers back on seems to "fix" it temporarily.

The booster pump works for weeks if I don't irrigate - but if I do - the
booster has failed to start twice - once I heard screeching sounds until I
shut the breakers - but this last time I heard nothing.

Then for weeks, it works fine - with normal sounds.

I'm perplexed - but the first thing I'm assuming is that it's heating up
due to bearings - I'm not sure if that's the case - but the screeching wsa
something - even if I don't hear it now.

Do you guys with wells periodically rebuild your water pressure pump?
This one could be as old as from the 80s.

On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 6:01:19 PM UTC-5, Arlen Holder wrote:
My outdoor water pressure booster pump occasionally won't start,
particularly after doing some irrigation watering.

It never happened before under those circumstances, but it happened twice
in the past week - where letting it sit with the breakers turned off for an
hour and then turning the breakers back on seems to "fix" it temporarily.

The booster pump works for weeks if I don't irrigate - but if I do - the
booster has failed to start twice - once I heard screeching sounds until I
shut the breakers - but this last time I heard nothing.

Then for weeks, it works fine - with normal sounds.

I'm perplexed - but the first thing I'm assuming is that it's heating up
due to bearings - I'm not sure if that's the case - but the screeching wsa
something - even if I don't hear it now.

Do you guys with wells periodically rebuild your water pressure pump?
This one could be as old as from the 80s.

Have you considered calling a plumber? O_o

[8~{} Uncle Curious Monster

On 13 Aug 2018 16:37:22 GMT, Uncle Monster wrote:

Have you considered calling a plumber?

You're joking, right?

My main questions for those who have experience with such things, a
1. What do I look for to find the switch for low bladder pressure?
2. What experience can you impart on testing/replacing motor bearings?
3. If I replace the motor, what are the important specs to match?

Anyone who says "call a plumber" for something like this doesn't belong in
this newsgroup and never did. They're out of their league. The people who
do belong in this newsgroup know something about home repair other than how
to use a telephone.

Moving forward for those who have experience troubleshooting motors, here's
the plate on the motor:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1473519pressure05.jpg
General Electric AC Motor Thermally Protected Jet Pump Motor
Mod: 5KC39QN1157AX HP: 1 HZ: 60 V: 115/230 PH: 1 RPM: 3450 CODE: L

I'm not sure how a "jet pump" motor differs from a "pump" motor (do you
know the difference?) but I found this troubleshooting guide:
http://www.flotecpump.com/residentialpage_resource_ts_jetpump.aspx

It's not hard to find a "jet pump motor" on the net, but it is almost
impossible to find *that* jet pump motor on the net. What matters?

The GE Model Lookup for repair manuals & parts diagrams comes up broken:
https://www.ge.com/keywords/model-number-lookup

The well-tank not-empty switch is continuously closed (as it should be):
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1279096pressure07.jpg

There must be a bladder-pressure switch somewhere but I don't know what to
look for yet - does anyone here have that knowledge of what to look for?
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5816454pressure03.jpg

The gauge, if accurate, is indicating 70+ psi pressure at the pump itself:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6584167pressure06.jpg

The relay doesn't appear to show any visible anomalies that I can see:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6757739pressure04.jpg

I think (but am not sure) that thermal overload may be occurring:
https://www.l-3.com/private/ieee/Motor%20Protection%20Principles.pdf

My main questions for those who have experience with such things, a
1. What do I look for to find the switch for low bladder pressure?
2. What experience can you impart on testing/replacing motor bearings?
3. If I replace the motor, what are the important specs to match?

On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 8:37:09 PM UTC-4, Arlen Holder wrote:
On 13 Aug 2018 16:37:22 GMT, Uncle Monster wrote:

Have you considered calling a plumber?

You're joking, right?

My main questions for those who have experience with such things, a
1. What do I look for to find the switch for low bladder pressure?
2. What experience can you impart on testing/replacing motor bearings?
3. If I replace the motor, what are the important specs to match?

Anyone who says "call a plumber" for something like this doesn't belong in
this newsgroup and never did. They're out of their league. The people who
do belong in this newsgroup know something about home repair other than how
to use a telephone.

Moving forward for those who have experience troubleshooting motors, here's
the plate on the motor:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1473519pressure05.jpg
General Electric AC Motor Thermally Protected Jet Pump Motor
Mod: 5KC39QN1157AX HP: 1 HZ: 60 V: 115/230 PH: 1 RPM: 3450 CODE: L

I'm not sure how a "jet pump" motor differs from a "pump" motor (do you
know the difference?) but I found this troubleshooting guide:
http://www.flotecpump.com/residentialpage_resource_ts_jetpump.aspx

IDK why you call it a pressure booster pump instead of just a pump.
It sounds like it's a jet pump and the only one. Jet pumps differ from
a piston pump in that they can bring up water from depths that are lower
than the max lift of a piston pump, which I think is like ~28 ft?
They use two pipes, one pushes water down the well to the other part
of the pump where a jet action picks up water and it comes back on
the other line.






It's not hard to find a "jet pump motor" on the net, but it is almost
impossible to find *that* jet pump motor on the net. What matters?

Frame size, voltage, speed, hp and maybe if it's suited for a wet location,
etc if it's exposed.




The GE Model Lookup for repair manuals & parts diagrams comes up broken:
https://www.ge.com/keywords/model-number-lookup

The well-tank not-empty switch is continuously closed (as it should be):
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1279096pressure07.jpg

There must be a bladder-pressure switch somewhere but I don't know what to
look for yet - does anyone here have that knowledge of what to look for?
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5816454pressure03.jpg

The thing you're calling the relay is the pressure switch.



The gauge, if accurate, is indicating 70+ psi pressure at the pump itself:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6584167pressure06.jpg

The relay doesn't appear to show any visible anomalies that I can see:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6757739pressure04.jpg

I think (but am not sure) that thermal overload may be occurring:
https://www.l-3.com/private/ieee/Motor%20Protection%20Principles.pdf

My main questions for those who have experience with such things, a
1. What do I look for to find the switch for low bladder pressure?
2. What experience can you impart on testing/replacing motor bearings?
3. If I replace the motor, what are the important specs to match?

On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 7:37:09 PM UTC-5, Arlen Holder wrote:
On 13 Aug 2018 16:37:22 GMT, Uncle Monster wrote:

Have you considered calling a plumber?

You're joking, right?

My main questions for those who have experience with such things, a
1. What do I look for to find the switch for low bladder pressure?
2. What experience can you impart on testing/replacing motor bearings?
3. If I replace the motor, what are the important specs to match?

Anyone who says "call a plumber" for something like this doesn't belong in
this newsgroup and never did. They're out of their league. The people who
do belong in this newsgroup know something about home repair other than how
to use a telephone.

Moving forward for those who have experience troubleshooting motors, here's
the plate on the motor:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1473519pressure05.jpg
General Electric AC Motor Thermally Protected Jet Pump Motor
Mod: 5KC39QN1157AX HP: 1 HZ: 60 V: 115/230 PH: 1 RPM: 3450 CODE: L

I'm not sure how a "jet pump" motor differs from a "pump" motor (do you
know the difference?) but I found this troubleshooting guide:
http://www.flotecpump.com/residentialpage_resource_ts_jetpump.aspx

It's not hard to find a "jet pump motor" on the net, but it is almost
impossible to find *that* jet pump motor on the net. What matters?

The GE Model Lookup for repair manuals & parts diagrams comes up broken:
https://www.ge.com/keywords/model-number-lookup

The well-tank not-empty switch is continuously closed (as it should be):
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1279096pressure07.jpg

There must be a bladder-pressure switch somewhere but I don't know what to
look for yet - does anyone here have that knowledge of what to look for?
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5816454pressure03.jpg

The gauge, if accurate, is indicating 70+ psi pressure at the pump itself:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6584167pressure06.jpg

The relay doesn't appear to show any visible anomalies that I can see:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6757739pressure04.jpg

I think (but am not sure) that thermal overload may be occurring:
https://www.l-3.com/private/ieee/Motor%20Protection%20Principles.pdf

My main questions for those who have experience with such things, a
1. What do I look for to find the switch for low bladder pressure?
2. What experience can you impart on testing/replacing motor bearings?
3. If I replace the motor, what are the important specs to match?

Do you have experience working on pumps, electrical power, plumbing, control circuits, pressure tanks, etc? If not, you may need to call a professional. It's for your own safety and may cost you less in the long run. I've repaired systems like that and someone who has no clue about what they're doing can cause a lot of damage. I know from experience because of having to repair major DIY damage done by a clueless customer. You need at least a basic understanding of electrical circuits and electrical safety. If you don't possess such knowledge, I'd fear for your safety. If you still wish to tackle the repair, please be safe and make sure the power is off before you dig into anything. o_O

[8~{} Uncle Pump Monster

On 8/13/18 7:37 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
On 13 Aug 2018 16:37:22 GMT, Uncle Monster wrote:

Have you considered calling a plumber?

You're joking, right?

My main questions for those who have experience with such things, a
1. What do I look for to find the switch for low bladder pressure?
2. What experience can you impart on testing/replacing motor bearings?
3. If I replace the motor, what are the important specs to match?

Anyone who says "call a plumber" for something like this doesn't belong in
this newsgroup and never did. They're out of their league. The people who
do belong in this newsgroup know something about home repair other than how
to use a telephone.

Moving forward for those who have experience troubleshooting motors, here's
the plate on the motor:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1473519pressure05.jpg
General Electric AC Motor Thermally Protected Jet Pump Motor
Mod: 5KC39QN1157AX HP: 1 HZ: 60 V: 115/230 PH: 1 RPM: 3450 CODE: L

I'm not sure how a "jet pump" motor differs from a "pump" motor (do you
know the difference?) but I found this troubleshooting guide:
http://www.flotecpump.com/residentialpage_resource_ts_jetpump.aspx

It's not hard to find a "jet pump motor" on the net, but it is almost
impossible to find *that* jet pump motor on the net. What matters?

The GE Model Lookup for repair manuals & parts diagrams comes up broken:
https://www.ge.com/keywords/model-number-lookup

The well-tank not-empty switch is continuously closed (as it should be):
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1279096pressure07.jpg

There must be a bladder-pressure switch somewhere but I don't know what to
look for yet - does anyone here have that knowledge of what to look for?
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5816454pressure03.jpg

The gauge, if accurate, is indicating 70+ psi pressure at the pump itself:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6584167pressure06.jpg

70 psi is probably the shutdown point. 50 psi will probably be the
pump starting point.

The relay doesn't appear to show any visible anomalies that I can see:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6757739pressure04.jpg

The thing you're calling the relay is the pressure switch.
Notice the tube
leading away from it.

I think (but am not sure) that thermal overload may be occurring:
https://www.l-3.com/private/ieee/Motor%20Protection%20Principles.pdf

My main questions for those who have experience with such things, a
1. What do I look for to find the switch for low bladder pressure?
2. What experience can you impart on testing/replacing motor bearings?
3. If I replace the motor, what are the important specs to match?

I'd probably just replace the entire pump. There will be wear on
the impeller
so it won't be at its most efficient.

On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 9:22:52 PM UTC-4, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 7:37:09 PM UTC-5, Arlen Holder wrote:
On 13 Aug 2018 16:37:22 GMT, Uncle Monster wrote:

Have you considered calling a plumber?

You're joking, right?

My main questions for those who have experience with such things, a
1. What do I look for to find the switch for low bladder pressure?
2. What experience can you impart on testing/replacing motor bearings?
3. If I replace the motor, what are the important specs to match?

Anyone who says "call a plumber" for something like this doesn't belong in
this newsgroup and never did. They're out of their league. The people who
do belong in this newsgroup know something about home repair other than how
to use a telephone.

Moving forward for those who have experience troubleshooting motors, here's
the plate on the motor:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1473519pressure05.jpg
General Electric AC Motor Thermally Protected Jet Pump Motor
Mod: 5KC39QN1157AX HP: 1 HZ: 60 V: 115/230 PH: 1 RPM: 3450 CODE: L

I'm not sure how a "jet pump" motor differs from a "pump" motor (do you
know the difference?) but I found this troubleshooting guide:
http://www.flotecpump.com/residentialpage_resource_ts_jetpump.aspx

It's not hard to find a "jet pump motor" on the net, but it is almost
impossible to find *that* jet pump motor on the net. What matters?

The GE Model Lookup for repair manuals & parts diagrams comes up broken:
https://www.ge.com/keywords/model-number-lookup

The well-tank not-empty switch is continuously closed (as it should be):
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1279096pressure07.jpg

There must be a bladder-pressure switch somewhere but I don't know what to
look for yet - does anyone here have that knowledge of what to look for?
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5816454pressure03.jpg

The gauge, if accurate, is indicating 70+ psi pressure at the pump itself:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6584167pressure06.jpg

The relay doesn't appear to show any visible anomalies that I can see:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6757739pressure04.jpg

I think (but am not sure) that thermal overload may be occurring:
https://www.l-3.com/private/ieee/Motor%20Protection%20Principles.pdf

My main questions for those who have experience with such things, a
1. What do I look for to find the switch for low bladder pressure?
2. What experience can you impart on testing/replacing motor bearings?
3. If I replace the motor, what are the important specs to match?

Do you have experience working on pumps, electrical power, plumbing, control circuits, pressure tanks, etc? If not, you may need to call a professional. It's for your own safety and may cost you less in the long run. I've repaired systems like that and someone who has no clue about what they're doing can cause a lot of damage. I know from experience because of having to repair major DIY damage done by a clueless customer. You need at least a basic understanding of electrical circuits and electrical safety. If you don't possess such knowledge, I'd fear for your safety. If you still wish to tackle the repair, please be safe and make sure the power is off before you dig into anything. o_O

[8~{} Uncle Pump Monster

Helpful as usual, I see. It's AHR, he actually asks a home repair question
and first you give him snide remarks, then all kinds of reasons why putting
a new motor on a pump may require a plumber. You didn't answer a single
question he asked. Quite a performance.

On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 8:28:38 PM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 9:22:52 PM UTC-4, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 7:37:09 PM UTC-5, Arlen Holder wrote:
On 13 Aug 2018 16:37:22 GMT, Uncle Monster wrote:

Have you considered calling a plumber?

You're joking, right?

My main questions for those who have experience with such things, a
1. What do I look for to find the switch for low bladder pressure?
2. What experience can you impart on testing/replacing motor bearings?
3. If I replace the motor, what are the important specs to match?

Anyone who says "call a plumber" for something like this doesn't belong in
this newsgroup and never did. They're out of their league. The people who
do belong in this newsgroup know something about home repair other than how
to use a telephone.

Moving forward for those who have experience troubleshooting motors, here's
the plate on the motor:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1473519pressure05.jpg
General Electric AC Motor Thermally Protected Jet Pump Motor
Mod: 5KC39QN1157AX HP: 1 HZ: 60 V: 115/230 PH: 1 RPM: 3450 CODE: L

I'm not sure how a "jet pump" motor differs from a "pump" motor (do you
know the difference?) but I found this troubleshooting guide:
http://www.flotecpump.com/residentialpage_resource_ts_jetpump.aspx

It's not hard to find a "jet pump motor" on the net, but it is almost
impossible to find *that* jet pump motor on the net. What matters?

The GE Model Lookup for repair manuals & parts diagrams comes up broken:
https://www.ge.com/keywords/model-number-lookup

The well-tank not-empty switch is continuously closed (as it should be):
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1279096pressure07.jpg

There must be a bladder-pressure switch somewhere but I don't know what to
look for yet - does anyone here have that knowledge of what to look for?
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5816454pressure03.jpg

The gauge, if accurate, is indicating 70+ psi pressure at the pump itself:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6584167pressure06.jpg

The relay doesn't appear to show any visible anomalies that I can see:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6757739pressure04.jpg

I think (but am not sure) that thermal overload may be occurring:
https://www.l-3.com/private/ieee/Motor%20Protection%20Principles.pdf

My main questions for those who have experience with such things, a
1. What do I look for to find the switch for low bladder pressure?
2. What experience can you impart on testing/replacing motor bearings?
3. If I replace the motor, what are the important specs to match?

Do you have experience working on pumps, electrical power, plumbing, control circuits, pressure tanks, etc? If not, you may need to call a professional. It's for your own safety and may cost you less in the long run. I've repaired systems like that and someone who has no clue about what they're doing can cause a lot of damage. I know from experience because of having to repair major DIY damage done by a clueless customer. You need at least a basic understanding of electrical circuits and electrical safety. If you don't possess such knowledge, I'd fear for your safety. If you still wish to tackle the repair, please be safe and make sure the power is off before you dig into anything. o_O

[8~{} Uncle Pump Monster

Helpful as usual, I see. It's AHR, he actually asks a home repair question
and first you give him snide remarks, then all kinds of reasons why putting
a new motor on a pump may require a plumber. You didn't answer a single
question he asked. Quite a performance.

Go fellate yourself Traitor_4ever. I didn't see you offering any help. You lack the expertise to assist the fellow or to be concerned about his safety anyway so your best bet is to STFU. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Observant Monster

On 8/13/2018 6:01 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
My outdoor water pressure booster pump occasionally won't start,
particularly after doing some irrigation watering.

It never happened before under those circumstances, but it happened twice
in the past week - where letting it sit with the breakers turned off for an
hour and then turning the breakers back on seems to "fix" it temporarily.

The booster pump works for weeks if I don't irrigate - but if I do - the
booster has failed to start twice - once I heard screeching sounds until I
shut the breakers - but this last time I heard nothing.

Then for weeks, it works fine - with normal sounds.

I'm perplexed - but the first thing I'm assuming is that it's heating up
due to bearings - I'm not sure if that's the case - but the screeching wsa
something - even if I don't hear it now.

Do you guys with wells periodically rebuild your water pressure pump?
This one could be as old as from the 80s.


I don't have any experience w/ jet pumps; we're too deep here so
everything is submersible...

But, certainly sounds quite probable is a bearing problem and likely
happens only when you irrigate (so far, the rest is coming) because it's
running nearly if not continuously so doesn't have interval to cool down
between.

Q? is when this happens have you felt for temperature and determined
which bearing(s) are the ones--is it the motor or the pump?

Is there a manual thermal reset on the pump or is it one of the internal
bimetallics? If there's a red reset button, if it had tripped you'd
have to manually reset; if no external reset then it could have tripped
and but would automatically reset once cooled off. If it's getting this
hot that that's happening, it's time...

If there's a local shop, and you can work out the schedule, I'd probably
take it to him and let him do the bearings unless you've got the
toolset; we've got a really good local shop and for something like this
he would in all likelihood be able to get it in/out in an afternoon if
scheduled it. If he couldn't, would likely have a loaner or the well
folks should.

OTOH, if it's all as old as you say may be, there's something to be said
for new and at your leisure rebuild the old one and you've got a spare...

Others answered most of the other regarding pieces-parts; there's no
need for the identical motor down to being GE; form factor, HP and
service rating are the key items...

The first Q? still is to determine whether it's the motor or the pump
with the problem, however.

--

On 8/13/18 9:18 PM, dpb wrote:
On 8/13/2018 6:01 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
My outdoor water pressure booster pump occasionally won't start,
particularly after doing some irrigation watering.

It never happened before under those circumstances, but it happened twice
in the past week - where letting it sit with the breakers turned off
for an
hour and then turning the breakers back on seems to "fix" it temporarily.

The booster pump works for weeks if I don't irrigate - but if I do - the
booster has failed to start twice - once I heard screeching sounds
until I
shut the breakers - but this last time I heard nothing.

Then for weeks, it works fine - with normal sounds.

I'm perplexed - but the first thing I'm assuming is that it's heating up
due to bearings - I'm not sure if that's the case - but the screeching
wsa
something - even if I don't hear it now.

Do you guys with wells periodically rebuild your water pressure pump?
This one could be as old as from the 80s.


I don't have any experience w/ jet pumps; we're too deep here so
everything is submersible...

But, certainly sounds quite probable is a bearing problem and likely
happens only when you irrigate (so far, the rest is coming) because it's
running nearly if not continuously so doesn't have interval to cool down
between.

Q? is when this happens have you felt for temperature and determined
which bearing(s) are the ones--is it the motor or the pump?

No bearings in the actual pump. They rely on the motor's bearings.

Is there a manual thermal reset on the pump or is it one of the internal
bimetallics?Â* If there's a red reset button, if it had tripped you'd
have to manually reset; if no external reset then it could have tripped
and but would automatically reset once cooled off.Â* If it's getting this
hot that that's happening, it's time...

If there's a local shop, and you can work out the schedule, I'd probably
take it to him and let him do the bearings unless you've got the
toolset; we've got a really good local shop and for something like this
he would in all likelihood be able to get it in/out in an afternoon if
scheduled it.Â* If he couldn't, would likely have a loaner or the well
folks should.

OTOH, if it's all as old as you say may be, there's something to be said
for new and at your leisure rebuild the old one and you've got a
spare...

Others answered most of the other regarding pieces-parts; there's no
need for the identical motor down to being GE; form factor, HP and
service rating are the key items...

The first Q? still is to determine whether it's the motor or the pump
with the problem, however.

--

On 8/13/2018 9:21 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 8/13/18 9:18 PM, dpb wrote:
....

Q? is when this happens have you felt for temperature and determined
which bearing(s) are the ones--is it the motor or the pump?

Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* No bearings in the actual pump.Â* They rely on the motor's bearings.

....

I allowed as had no 'spearmints with jet pumps...

Thanks.

--

On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 9:35:16 PM UTC-4, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 8:28:38 PM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 9:22:52 PM UTC-4, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 7:37:09 PM UTC-5, Arlen Holder wrote:
On 13 Aug 2018 16:37:22 GMT, Uncle Monster wrote:

Have you considered calling a plumber?

You're joking, right?

My main questions for those who have experience with such things, a
1. What do I look for to find the switch for low bladder pressure?
2. What experience can you impart on testing/replacing motor bearings?
3. If I replace the motor, what are the important specs to match?

Anyone who says "call a plumber" for something like this doesn't belong in
this newsgroup and never did. They're out of their league. The people who
do belong in this newsgroup know something about home repair other than how
to use a telephone.

Moving forward for those who have experience troubleshooting motors, here's
the plate on the motor:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1473519pressure05.jpg
General Electric AC Motor Thermally Protected Jet Pump Motor
Mod: 5KC39QN1157AX HP: 1 HZ: 60 V: 115/230 PH: 1 RPM: 3450 CODE: L

I'm not sure how a "jet pump" motor differs from a "pump" motor (do you
know the difference?) but I found this troubleshooting guide:
http://www.flotecpump.com/residentialpage_resource_ts_jetpump.aspx

It's not hard to find a "jet pump motor" on the net, but it is almost
impossible to find *that* jet pump motor on the net. What matters?

The GE Model Lookup for repair manuals & parts diagrams comes up broken:
https://www.ge.com/keywords/model-number-lookup

The well-tank not-empty switch is continuously closed (as it should be):
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1279096pressure07.jpg

There must be a bladder-pressure switch somewhere but I don't know what to
look for yet - does anyone here have that knowledge of what to look for?
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5816454pressure03.jpg

The gauge, if accurate, is indicating 70+ psi pressure at the pump itself:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6584167pressure06.jpg

The relay doesn't appear to show any visible anomalies that I can see:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6757739pressure04.jpg

I think (but am not sure) that thermal overload may be occurring:
https://www.l-3.com/private/ieee/Motor%20Protection%20Principles.pdf

My main questions for those who have experience with such things, a
1. What do I look for to find the switch for low bladder pressure?
2. What experience can you impart on testing/replacing motor bearings?
3. If I replace the motor, what are the important specs to match?

Do you have experience working on pumps, electrical power, plumbing, control circuits, pressure tanks, etc? If not, you may need to call a professional. It's for your own safety and may cost you less in the long run. I've repaired systems like that and someone who has no clue about what they're doing can cause a lot of damage. I know from experience because of having to repair major DIY damage done by a clueless customer. You need at least a basic understanding of electrical circuits and electrical safety. If you don't possess such knowledge, I'd fear for your safety. If you still wish to tackle the repair, please be safe and make sure the power is off before you dig into anything. o_O

[8~{} Uncle Pump Monster

Helpful as usual, I see. It's AHR, he actually asks a home repair question
and first you give him snide remarks, then all kinds of reasons why putting
a new motor on a pump may require a plumber. You didn't answer a single
question he asked. Quite a performance.

Go fellate yourself Traitor_4ever.

Why would I do that when I have your sister coming over?



I didn't see you offering any help.

Wrong yet again, of course.



You lack the expertise to assist the fellow or to be concerned about his safety anyway so your best bet is to STFU. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Observant Monster

On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 10:02:30 PM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 9:35:16 PM UTC-4, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 8:28:38 PM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 9:22:52 PM UTC-4, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 7:37:09 PM UTC-5, Arlen Holder wrote:
On 13 Aug 2018 16:37:22 GMT, Uncle Monster wrote:

Have you considered calling a plumber?

You're joking, right?

My main questions for those who have experience with such things, a
1. What do I look for to find the switch for low bladder pressure?
2. What experience can you impart on testing/replacing motor bearings?
3. If I replace the motor, what are the important specs to match?

Anyone who says "call a plumber" for something like this doesn't belong in
this newsgroup and never did. They're out of their league. The people who
do belong in this newsgroup know something about home repair other than how
to use a telephone.

Moving forward for those who have experience troubleshooting motors, here's
the plate on the motor:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1473519pressure05.jpg
General Electric AC Motor Thermally Protected Jet Pump Motor
Mod: 5KC39QN1157AX HP: 1 HZ: 60 V: 115/230 PH: 1 RPM: 3450 CODE: L

I'm not sure how a "jet pump" motor differs from a "pump" motor (do you
know the difference?) but I found this troubleshooting guide:
http://www.flotecpump.com/residentialpage_resource_ts_jetpump.aspx

It's not hard to find a "jet pump motor" on the net, but it is almost
impossible to find *that* jet pump motor on the net. What matters?

The GE Model Lookup for repair manuals & parts diagrams comes up broken:
https://www.ge.com/keywords/model-number-lookup

The well-tank not-empty switch is continuously closed (as it should be):
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1279096pressure07.jpg

There must be a bladder-pressure switch somewhere but I don't know what to
look for yet - does anyone here have that knowledge of what to look for?
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5816454pressure03.jpg

The gauge, if accurate, is indicating 70+ psi pressure at the pump itself:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6584167pressure06.jpg

The relay doesn't appear to show any visible anomalies that I can see:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6757739pressure04.jpg

I think (but am not sure) that thermal overload may be occurring:
https://www.l-3.com/private/ieee/Motor%20Protection%20Principles.pdf

My main questions for those who have experience with such things, a
1. What do I look for to find the switch for low bladder pressure?
2. What experience can you impart on testing/replacing motor bearings?
3. If I replace the motor, what are the important specs to match?

Do you have experience working on pumps, electrical power, plumbing, control circuits, pressure tanks, etc? If not, you may need to call a professional. It's for your own safety and may cost you less in the long run. I've repaired systems like that and someone who has no clue about what they're doing can cause a lot of damage. I know from experience because of having to repair major DIY damage done by a clueless customer. You need at least a basic understanding of electrical circuits and electrical safety. If you don't possess such knowledge, I'd fear for your safety. If you still wish to tackle the repair, please be safe and make sure the power is off before you dig into anything. o_O

[8~{} Uncle Pump Monster

Helpful as usual, I see. It's AHR, he actually asks a home repair question
and first you give him snide remarks, then all kinds of reasons why putting
a new motor on a pump may require a plumber. You didn't answer a single
question he asked. Quite a performance.

Go fellate yourself Traitor_4ever.

Why would I do that when I have your sister coming over?

Which sister Traitor_4ever pervert? Any of my sisters would kick your ass for being a Liberal Leftist Commiecrat and opening your mouth to them. snicker ^_^

I didn't see you offering any help.

Wrong yet again, of course.

So you solved the guy's problem? I'm sure you didn't give an airborne fornication for the fellow's safety. o_O

You lack the expertise to assist the fellow or to be concerned about his safety anyway so your best bet is to STFU. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Observant Monster

[8~{} Uncle Gotcha Monster

On 13 Aug 2018 19:21:52 GMT, Dean Hoffman wrote:

No bearings in the actual pump. They rely on the motor's bearings.

The motor will likely have two standard bearings.

I won't know what to buy until I take the motor apart, but the downtime is
crucial because there won't be water pressure in the house.

I tried to find a parts diagram on the web for the model but I can't find
one yet.
General Electric Jet Pump Motor 5KC39QN1157AX
HP: 1 HZ: 60 V: 115/230 PH: 1 RPM: 3450 CODE: L

I will call GE tomorrow, where I'm not beholden to GE but if I replace the
bearings, I need to know ahead of time which ones to order.

The real problem first is that I don't know what's wrong, because it's
clearly intermittent.

What's irksome is that I don't understand the sensing pressure mechanism.

It seems to be MISSING a sensing of the OUTPUT pressure at the bladder.

On 13 Aug 2018 19:18:11 GMT, dpb wrote:

I don't have any experience w/ jet pumps; we're too deep here so
everything is submersible...

You're the second person to mention this, so I should be very clear that
the well itself is 500 feet deep and it has, AFAIK, its own pump at the
bottom.

Clearly I have separate breakers for the well pump versus the booster pump.
They are two different pumps.

The well pump brings up the water and stores it in tanks that are 10 feet
high. The tanks don't develop enough water pressure for the house, so the
booster pump boosts the pressure for the house.

If the booster pump is off, then there is water that just dribbles out the
faucets in the house. They will dribble for 10,000 gallons, but they just
dribble.

If the booster pump is working, then there is water pressure at the house.
Lots and lots of water pressure (a garden hose shoots dozens of feet).

Suffice to say the booster pump has only one purpose and the well pump has
a different purpose.

But, certainly sounds quite probable is a bearing problem and likely
happens only when you irrigate (so far, the rest is coming) because it's
running nearly if not continuously so doesn't have interval to cool down
between.

Yes. That's what I think also.
It could be the pressure switch - but that wouldn't "heat up".
The booster pump would heat up.

Although ... I did put my hand on it when it didn't go on, and it wasn't
even warm. But it's inside at the bearings where it matters most.

Q? is when this happens have you felt for temperature and determined
which bearing(s) are the ones--is it the motor or the pump?

Ah. I just answered that (I respond in line). The pump, surprisingly, does
not feel in the least hot the second time this happened. I was there within
whatever time frame it took for the water pressure to be used up, as I was
using the hose at the same time as the irrigation was on.

SO I was probably fifteen or twenty minutes after the pump failed to go on
(or however long it takes to use up the pressure in the big blue bladder).

I was *surprised* that the pump housing wasn't hot in the least.
SO it might be the pressure switch.

I'm not sure what the gauge is reading because the gauge may be reading the
pressure of the 10 foot column of water that is only a few feet behind the
pump.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5845028pressure08.jpg

So the main thing I have to figure out is what that gauge is trying to tell
me.

Is there a manual thermal reset on the pump or is it one of the internal
bimetallics?

I looked for a red button, but didn't find any.
I think it's internal.

If there's a red reset button, if it had tripped you'd
have to manually reset; if no external reset then it could have tripped
and but would automatically reset once cooled off. If it's getting this
hot that that's happening, it's time...

Yup. I agree. It's NOT getting hot, but I'm not sure I got to it in time.
It wasn't even warm though, and pumps are heavy metal, so you'd think
they'd be a heat sink - so I'm not positive that it thermally reset.

That's why I need to troubleshoot. My only indication that it's the pump is
that I heard a squeal which made me immediately shut the breaker. The
squeal stopped - so it was definitely the pump. But that squeal hasn't
happened again and that was a few days ago where the pump has gone on
hundreds of times for sure since then.

If there's a local shop, and you can work out the schedule, I'd probably
take it to him and let him do the bearings unless you've got the
toolset; we've got a really good local shop and for something like this
he would in all likelihood be able to get it in/out in an afternoon if
scheduled it. If he couldn't, would likely have a loaner or the well
folks should.

I've done bearings before. And I've taken things to a local shop before.
In general, in California anyway, it's not worth the labor at $200/hour.

Bearings are cheap. The problem is that every time I take apart an outdoor
motor, the long bolts are so frozen that they snap. This motor is "indoor"
(it's in a shed) so it may be easier. I don't know. But that's the downtime
issue.

The downtime matters because there is no water pressure while the pump is
out of commission.

OTOH, if it's all as old as you say may be, there's something to be said
for new and at your leisure rebuild the old one and you've got a spare...

That's my plan.
Unless it's the pressure switch.

I have no idea how old it is though.
But it could be the original for all I know.

I think it might NOT be the pump though.
That's why I need to ask how the pressure switch works.

The one thing that perplexes me is that I don't see ANY indication of the
bladder pressure being measured.

It looks like what's being measured is the INPUT pressure to the pump, not
the OUTPUT pressure.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9113867pressure02.jpg

But that makes no sense.
Does it?

Others answered most of the other regarding pieces-parts; there's no
need for the identical motor down to being GE; form factor, HP and
service rating are the key items...

The "frame" is what matters, I think, as long as it's about 1HP and 3450
RPM, which is the easy part. I'm not sure what the "frame" is though.
Is the "frame" on this sticker?
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2105511pressure05.jpg

The first Q? still is to determine whether it's the motor or the pump
with the problem, however.

Yup. The pump appears to have two switches that control it.
a. The water level indicator relay (which is known to be working fine!)
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1279096pressure07.jpg
b. The booster pressure indicator relay (which is a mystery to me)
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5845028pressure08.jpg

The "mystery" is that there is NOTHING coming out of the booster by way of
pressure sensors that I can see.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5816454pressure03.jpg

The gauge seems to be INPUT pressure, but that makes no sense.
Who cares what the input pressure is.
The OUTPUT pressure is what matters, right?

On 13 Aug 2018 18:25:12 GMT, Dean Hoffman wrote:

70 psi is probably the shutdown point. 50 psi will probably be the
pump starting point.

Thanks for mentioning that the 70 psi is the shutdown point.
I'm guessing it's measuring that right off the bladder, even though the
gauge is on the pump itself.

Given that the gauge generally reads the same all the time, that 70 psi
"might" also be the pressure of the column of water in the full tanks (I'd
have to do the F=P/A math) where the tanks are ten feet high a few feet
behind the motor).

One thing I need to look at is whether the pressure gauge shows a lower
pressure when the home has no water pressure. I "think" it always shows the
same pressure - so that's why I think it might be showing the pressure of
the water column BEFORE it gets to the pump (I'd have to check in the
morning as I had not thought about it until now).

The thing you're calling the relay is the pressure switch.
Notice the tube leading away from it.

Ah. That tube. I didn't notice it until you mentioned it!
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5845028pressure08.jpg

Hmmmm... so the pressure coming out of the bladder is NOT being sensed.
I don't see *any* wires or sense tubes coming out of the bladder tank!
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5816454pressure03.jpg

That is interesting. If I bypass that, the pump should go on and off
(depending on if it's normally open or normally closed).

For it to be a pressure switch, it needs a 'sensor' somewhere.
Maybe the sensor is under those contacts?

I'd probably just replace the entire pump. There will be wear on
the impeller so it won't be at its most efficient.

I don't disagree. I've disassembled plenty of pumps, where almost all the
time the outdoor water pumps have these long bolts that break EVERY damn
time. I spend most of my time trying to get them out.

Meanwhile, the bearings are frozen onto the shaft (especially if they were
making noise).

The good news is that bearings are dirt cheap - the bad news is that taking
apart the motors generally is impossible due to those long bolts that
break.

I don't mind replacing the pump, but I can't find an exact one on Google.
The model number just doesn't match anything. I do have an email that I
sent to GE and I will call General Electric in the morning to ask where I
can get a replacement.

I'm not beholden to GE - but I have to match that 'frame'.
Do you have advice as to what the frame is?
I don't see it explicitly on the label.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2105511pressure05.jpg
Do you?

On 13 Aug 2018 18:35:11 GMT, Uncle Monster wrote:

Go fellate yourself Traitor_4ever.
I didn't see you offering any help.
You lack the expertise to assist the fellow or to be concerned
about his safety anyway so your best bet is to STFU.

Let's stop bickering.
It's just foolish to say "call a plumber" on this newsgroup.
You got all upset that I said that - and I understand.

I apologize if you're all upset.

You think I'm gonna kill myself, and I told you I'm an EE but that doesn't
(a) give me immunity from electrocution, nor does it (b) teach me anything
about how the pressure switch works, and (c) it doesn't help me figure out
what "frame" this pump happens to use.

You can continue to be afraid of your own shadow, but I'm not.

All I need, for now, is helpful advice.
Your advice, so far, has not been helpful.

To be helpful, if you actually have experience you claim, then you would
easily be able to answer these three basic questions.
1. How does that pressure switch work (so I can troubleshoot it)?
2. If I replace the switch or pump, what specs matter?
3. If I replace just the bearings, what else would you order to replace?

On 13 Aug 2018 18:28:33 GMT, trader_4 wrote:

Helpful as usual, I see. It's AHR, he actually asks a home repair question
and first you give him snide remarks, then all kinds of reasons why putting
a new motor on a pump may require a plumber. You didn't answer a single
question he asked. Quite a performance.

Thank you for realizing that his response just wasted his time, my time,
and your time.

As you note, this is a home repair group for heaven's sake.
This is a pump that boosts the pressure of the water system.
I'm an electrical engineer - but that doesn't help much here.

I think his first response was just dead wrong - but his second response
was a ****load of excuses because my response got him upset.

I apologize to him if my response that his response wasn't helpful upset
him.

I have no problem admitting I know nothing about booster pumps.
Particularly I don't know how that pressure sensing system works.

To troubleshoot, I have to figure out if it's the pressure sensor, or the
pump motor. It's one or the other. (I think it may be the motor because I
heard a noise at one point - but it could be the sensor because the pump
won't go on at times.)

If he really has the experience he claims to have, he would be able to
answer these basic questions... which will help me a lot.
1. How does that pressure switch work (so I can troubleshoot it)?
2. If I replace the switch or pump, what specs matter?
3. If I replace just the bearings, what else would you order to replace?

NOTE: I saw your post on the specs, where the only one that I'm confused on
is what "Frame" am I currently using? Is the frame on this sticker?
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2105511pressure05.jpg

On 13 Aug 2018 18:08:55 GMT, trader_4 wrote:

IDK why you call it a pressure booster pump instead of just a pump.

Thanks for your helpful advice.

I agree with you. It's a pump. Specifically, it's a 1HP 3450RPM pump.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9787347pressure01.jpg

The job, AFAIK, is to boost the pressure coming out of the filled water
tanks, because, the tanks are comopletely full so the well pump (which is
500 feet deep) is working just fine.

Without the pressure pump, there is no water pressure inside the house.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9113867pressure02.jpg

The label, on the outside, says it's a "Jet Pump", whatever that means.
If I need to replace it, I am guessing I just need to match the bolts.

It sounds like it's a jet pump and the only one. Jet pumps differ from
a piston pump in that they can bring up water from depths that are lower
than the max lift of a piston pump, which I think is like ~28 ft?

In this case, the well has its own pump that is 500 feet deep.
There's nothing wrong with the well pump as the water tanks are full.

There's plenty of water in those tanks.
There's just no pressure when the pressure pump fails to turn on.

They use two pipes, one pushes water down the well to the other part
of the pump where a jet action picks up water and it comes back on
the other line.

I am sure this is a two-pump system.
1. There is a pump inside the well (deep down), and,
2. There is a pump outside the tanks (on the surface).

The pump deep down is working just fine as the water tanks are full.
There's plenty of water.

There's just no pressure.
The pressure comes from this pump.

Frame size, voltage, speed, hp and maybe if it's suited for a wet location,
etc if it's exposed.

It's in a shed. Nice and (reasonably) dry. Here is the label.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6757739pressure04.jpg
General Electric AC Motor Thermally Protected Jet Pump Motor
Mod: 5KC39QN1157AX HP: 1 HZ: 60 V: 115/230 PH: 1 RPM: 3450 CODE: L

I agree with you that I think the only spec that matters is:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2105511pressure05.jpg
a. The frame size - *where is the frame size listed?*
b. The voltage - this is running off of 110 it seems
c. The speed - this is 3450 rpm
d. The HP - this is 1 HP

The thing you're calling the relay is the pressure switch.

Ah. I didn't realize that relay was actually a pressure switch.
How on earth does it *measure* the pressure?

How can it sense the pressure from OUTSIDE the water supply?
This is a key question because the reason the pump isn't going on could
either be the pump is going bad - or - the pressure sensor is going bad.

On 13 Aug 2018 18:22:47 GMT, Uncle Monster wrote:

Do you have experience working on pumps, electrical power, plumbing,
control circuits, pressure tanks, etc? If not, you may need to call a professional.
It's for your own safety and may cost you less in the long run.
I've repaired systems like that and someone who has no clue about what
they're doing can cause a lot of damage. I know from experience because
of having to repair major DIY damage done by a clueless customer.
You need at least a basic understanding of electrical circuits and
electrical safety. If you don't possess such knowledge, I'd fear for
your safety. If you still wish to tackle the repair, please be safe
and make sure the power is off before you dig into anything.

All I'm asking is advice from someone who has troubleshot these things.
1. How does that pressure switch work (so I can troubleshoot it)?
2. If I replace the switch or pump, what specs matter?
3. If I replace just the bearings, what else would you order to replace?

Those are my main three questions.
Do you have helpful input on those three questions?

I apologize for pointing out that your comment about "call a plumber"
wasn't appropriate for this newsgroup.

All of your questions are off topic - and none of your posts so far are
intended to be helpful - that much is clear to all.

But I will faithfully answer your questions, even though this entire post
is a waste of time since it doesn't help anyone solve the problem at hand,
which is a basic home repair issue.

Do you have experience working on pumps, electrical power, plumbing,
control circuits, pressure tanks, etc?

Of course I do.
I'm a degreed electrical engineer for heaven's sake.
But I always will admit that the theory doesn't apply to the practical.

So having a degree in EE doesn't mean I know how to fix pumps.
I readily admit that.

For example, they NEVER cover pump bearings in college.
They don't cover frame sizes.
They don't even cover pumps, per se (they do cover motors).

If not, you may need to call a professional.

If that's your advice, then it's clear you know nothing of helpful use.
I'm sorry to be blunt. But your advice is a complete waste of time.
For you. For me. For everyone.
It just is.

It's for your own safety and may cost you less in the long run.

Again, platitudes.
What you say is what a grandmother would say.
You can't be helpful in a group called "alt.home.repair".

Why don't you just man up and admit you know nothing about pumps?
I can admit it.
Why can't you?

I've repaired systems like that and someone who has no clue about what
they're doing can cause a lot of damage.

Jesus. If you're so afraid of your own shadow, why do you bother to post
anything to an alt.home.repair newsgroup?

The fact is that I know nothing about pumps, but, you've shown that you too
know even less than I do.

Plus, your posts just waste your time, my time, and everyone elses' time.

I know from experience because
of having to repair major DIY damage done by a clueless customer.

What are you talking about?
It's a booster pump for heaven's sake.
Not a nuclear reactor.

All I'm asking is advice from someone who has troubleshot these things.
1. How does that pressure switch work (so I can troubleshoot it)?
2. If I replace the switch or pump, what specs matter?
3. If I replace just the bearings, what else would you order to replace?

Those are my main three questions.
Do you have helpful input on those three questions?

You need at least a basic understanding of electrical circuits and
electrical safety.

Holy ****. I said I'm an EE. What do you want me to do, post my degree for
you? Assume that I know all about volts and amps (and how to design chips,
for heaven's sake).

Having said that, being an EE doesn't give you any experience in pumps,
although the operation of motors is covered in theory for sure.

But "bearings" aren't covered.
Neither is how to get the pump open without breaking those long bolts.
Nor is how to fit a new pump to the old housing (the frame, so to speak).

None of that is covered in a 5-year engineering program.
You can argue that you think it should be covered; but it's just not.

I don't make the EE curriculum.
I just ask the questions.

If you don't possess such knowledge, I'd fear for
your safety. If you still wish to tackle the repair, please be safe
and make sure the power is off before you dig into anything.

Jesus Christ. If you're so afraid of your own shadow, you don't belong in
this newsgroup. You just don't.

If you *truly* have experience in troubleshooting pumps, you'll be able to
answer the simple questions posed...
1. How does that pressure switch work (so I can troubleshoot it)?
2. If I replace the switch or pump, what specs matter?
3. If I replace just the bearings, what else would you order to replace?

On 8/13/2018 10:54 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
....


You're the second person to mention this, so I should be very clear that
the well itself is 500 feet deep and it has, AFAIK, its own pump at the
bottom.

Ah! That's significant new factoid...

Clearly I have separate breakers for the well pump versus the booster pump.
They are two different pumps.

The well pump brings up the water and stores it in tanks that are 10 feet
high. The tanks don't develop enough water pressure for the house, so the
booster pump boosts the pressure for the house.

OK, what you've not shown picture of is the connections to the well pump
other than just the box but not where the signal comes from.

We run just off pressure in the storage tank; the pressure switch is
40-60 with no additional booster. Sounds like you're running an
essentially unpressurized tank and relying on the booster pump for
distribution pressure entirely.

I'm not sure what the gauge is reading because the gauge may be reading the
pressure of the 10 foot column of water that is only a few feet behind the
pump.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5845028pressure08.jpg

So the main thing I have to figure out is what that gauge is trying to tell
me.

....

I think it might NOT be the pump though.
That's why I need to ask how the pressure switch works.

I'd suspect that's highly unlikely to have caused the previous
noise...the question will be when it fail next time to look at position
of contacts; did they fail to close? If they function and you've got
power, then it's the thermal switch that's cut out.

The one thing that perplexes me is that I don't see ANY indication of the
bladder pressure being measured.

It looks like what's being measured is the INPUT pressure to the pump, not
the OUTPUT pressure.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9113867pressure02.jpg

But that makes no sense.
Does it?

Others answered most of the other regarding pieces-parts; there's no
need for the identical motor down to being GE; form factor, HP and
service rating are the key items...

The "frame" is what matters, I think, as long as it's about 1HP and 3450
RPM, which is the easy part. I'm not sure what the "frame" is though.
Is the "frame" on this sticker?
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2105511pressure05.jpg

Not really conventional frame number; the "jet pump motor" describes the
mounting flange arrangement which is what you have to match to the pump.

....

Yup. The pump appears to have two switches that control it.
a. The water level indicator relay (which is known to be working fine!)
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1279096pressure07.jpg

Never seen water level as input; what would help would be to see what
the inputs to that relay come from...it's not possible to tell which
pipe goes/comes to/from in that mess of stuff hooked to the tank...are
you sure somewhere along there there isn't another pressure tap going to
the well pump pressure switch? I don't know what "level" they'd be
measuring or where that sensor would be...that and an overall plumbing
diagram is what we're missing.

b. The booster pressure indicator relay (which is a mystery to me)
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5845028pressure08.jpg

The "mystery" is that there is NOTHING coming out of the booster by way of
pressure sensors that I can see.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5816454pressure03.jpg

The gauge seems to be INPUT pressure, but that makes no sense.
Who cares what the input pressure is.
The OUTPUT pressure is what matters, right?

That's common pressure at the outlet...was pump running or off at the time?

75 psi is pretty high for domestic water altho if you've got long runs
and small diameter feeds there may be sufficient pressure drop before it
gets to the house...

--

On 13 Aug 2018 22:34:49 GMT, dpb wrote:

Ah! That's significant new factoid...

Thanks for asking. I guess it's common to have only one pump, but I
definitely have a separate pump underground for the well, and the tanks are
unpressurized. They're open to the air at top (so to speak in that they
have a manhole cover and a vent at top.

OK, what you've not shown picture of is the connections to the well pump
other than just the box but not where the signal comes from.

It's night now, but here's a picture taken during the day a while ago:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=7831116pressure09.jpg

Let me know what you want a photo of, as I do realize a photo is better
than me trying to explain it.

We run just off pressure in the storage tank; the pressure switch is
40-60 with no additional booster. Sounds like you're running an
essentially unpressurized tank and relying on the booster pump for
distribution pressure entirely.

It's good to know your pressure is 40 to 60 psi, where mine seems to be, in
the photo, at around 75 psi (give or take a few). What I'm trying to figure
out is where the pressure switch is located, where people told me the tube
goes to it which puts it UNDER the relays in this photo.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9787347pressure01.jpg

I guess the right side of that motor *holds* the pressure, which seems
strange to me that a motor would hold pressure at all - since I would
expect the bladder to hold the pressure instead.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5816454pressure03.jpg

But there is no sensor wires that I can see at the bladder.
It's odd to me that the pump holds the pressure for such a long time.

I'd suspect that's highly unlikely to have caused the previous
noise...the question will be when it fail next time to look at position
of contacts; did they fail to close? If they function and you've got
power, then it's the thermal switch that's cut out.

I agree with you that the noise can only be one thing.
But the symptoms don't indicate a bad motor either.
It wasn't in the least hot when it made that noise for example.

So what I need to do is *test* that pressure switch.
But how?

Not really conventional frame number; the "jet pump motor" describes the
mounting flange arrangement which is what you have to match to the pump.

I'm confused. Are you saying all 1HP 3450 RPM single-phase 120VAC "jet pump
motors" have the same mounting hole arrangement?

I'm used to frame numbers like "56F" for example, but this doesn't seem to
have a frame number.

Never seen water level as input; what would help would be to see what
the inputs to that relay come from...it's not possible to tell which
pipe goes/comes to/from in that mess of stuff hooked to the tank...are
you sure somewhere along there there isn't another pressure tap going to
the well pump pressure switch? I don't know what "level" they'd be
measuring or where that sensor would be...that and an overall plumbing
diagram is what we're missing.

This is the wiring diagram to the first of the two relays outside on the
shed wall - but this relay is for the full tank switch:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2443640pressure10.jpg

This relay is working properly as it is pulled *in* which it should be,
because there is a switch INSIDE the water tank, that indicates that there
is enough water for the pressure pump to run.

As far as I can tell, there is no external wiring for the pressure switch
other than it goes from the fusebox to the pressure switch directly which
you can see in the black electrical conduit in this picture.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9113867pressure02.jpg

That's common pressure at the outlet...was pump running or off at the time?

The pump was most definitely OFF when all these pictures were taken.
The pressure never seems to vary, but I admit I don't look at it all that
much.

75 psi is pretty high for domestic water altho if you've got long runs
and small diameter feeds there may be sufficient pressure drop before it
gets to the house..

The house is a few hundred feet away and the runs to the other side are,
oh, I don't know, 500 or more feet away. I'm not worried, right now, about
the pressure being high as it has *always* been high (I can use a garden
hose as a weapon almost).

Right now, too much pressure isn't my problem.

I need to figure out how to troubleshoot that pressure switch.
And, I need to buy some bearings for that motor.
And line up a spare motor (in case I break the long bolts).

On 14 Aug 2018 06:18:44 GMT, Arlen Holder wrote:

I'm used to frame numbers like "56F" for example, but this doesn't seem to
have a frame number.

Duh. I'm an idiot!
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2105511pressure05.jpg

I just noticed the FRAME number on that motor plate!
Right where it should be!

*It's "FR 56C"*

I don't know why I didn't see this before.
(Nobody else did either - even though I had posted the picture).

Sigh. That at least solves the mystery of the frame number!

On 14 Aug 2018 06:24:36 GMT, Arlen Holder wrote:

*It's "FR 56C"*

That makes things infinitely easier to look up for replacement because this
is all that matters, I think.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2105511pressure05.jpg

1. Horsepower = 1HP with a service factor SF of 1.4 (i.e., 1.4HP full load)
2. Frame = 56C
3. Power = 120VAC single phase
4. Locked rotor code = L (9 to 10 volts)

With that, the first hit is this $261 motor:
http://www.electricmotors.com/1hp-3600rpm-nol-56cb-frame-jet-pump-motor.html

Reference on the service factor (SF):
http://www.inyopools.com/Blog/is-a-1-0hp-motor-the-same-as-a-1-5hp-motor/

Reefernce on the locked-rotor code (L):
http://www.arescobuyersclub.com/nameplates.html

On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 11:54:42 PM UTC-4, Arlen Holder wrote:
On 13 Aug 2018 19:18:11 GMT, dpb wrote:

I don't have any experience w/ jet pumps; we're too deep here so
everything is submersible...

You're the second person to mention this, so I should be very clear that
the well itself is 500 feet deep and it has, AFAIK, its own pump at the
bottom.

Clearly I have separate breakers for the well pump versus the booster pump.
They are two different pumps.

The well pump brings up the water and stores it in tanks that are 10 feet
high. The tanks don't develop enough water pressure for the house, so the
booster pump boosts the pressure for the house.

If the booster pump is off, then there is water that just dribbles out the
faucets in the house. They will dribble for 10,000 gallons, but they just
dribble.

If the booster pump is working, then there is water pressure at the house.
Lots and lots of water pressure (a garden hose shoots dozens of feet).

Suffice to say the booster pump has only one purpose and the well pump has
a different purpose.

But, certainly sounds quite probable is a bearing problem and likely
happens only when you irrigate (so far, the rest is coming) because it's
running nearly if not continuously so doesn't have interval to cool down
between.

Yes. That's what I think also.
It could be the pressure switch - but that wouldn't "heat up".
The booster pump would heat up.

Although ... I did put my hand on it when it didn't go on, and it wasn't
even warm. But it's inside at the bearings where it matters most.

Q? is when this happens have you felt for temperature and determined
which bearing(s) are the ones--is it the motor or the pump?

Ah. I just answered that (I respond in line). The pump, surprisingly, does
not feel in the least hot the second time this happened. I was there within
whatever time frame it took for the water pressure to be used up, as I was
using the hose at the same time as the irrigation was on.

SO I was probably fifteen or twenty minutes after the pump failed to go on
(or however long it takes to use up the pressure in the big blue bladder).

I was *surprised* that the pump housing wasn't hot in the least.
SO it might be the pressure switch.

I'm not sure what the gauge is reading because the gauge may be reading the
pressure of the 10 foot column of water that is only a few feet behind the
pump.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5845028pressure08.jpg

So the main thing I have to figure out is what that gauge is trying to tell
me.

Is there a manual thermal reset on the pump or is it one of the internal
bimetallics?

I looked for a red button, but didn't find any.
I think it's internal.

If there's a red reset button, if it had tripped you'd
have to manually reset; if no external reset then it could have tripped
and but would automatically reset once cooled off. If it's getting this
hot that that's happening, it's time...

Yup. I agree. It's NOT getting hot, but I'm not sure I got to it in time.
It wasn't even warm though, and pumps are heavy metal, so you'd think
they'd be a heat sink - so I'm not positive that it thermally reset.

That's why I need to troubleshoot. My only indication that it's the pump is
that I heard a squeal which made me immediately shut the breaker. The
squeal stopped - so it was definitely the pump. But that squeal hasn't
happened again and that was a few days ago where the pump has gone on
hundreds of times for sure since then.

If there's a local shop, and you can work out the schedule, I'd probably
take it to him and let him do the bearings unless you've got the
toolset; we've got a really good local shop and for something like this
he would in all likelihood be able to get it in/out in an afternoon if
scheduled it. If he couldn't, would likely have a loaner or the well
folks should.

I've done bearings before. And I've taken things to a local shop before.
In general, in California anyway, it's not worth the labor at $200/hour.

Bearings are cheap. The problem is that every time I take apart an outdoor
motor, the long bolts are so frozen that they snap. This motor is "indoor"
(it's in a shed) so it may be easier. I don't know. But that's the downtime
issue.

The downtime matters because there is no water pressure while the pump is
out of commission.

OTOH, if it's all as old as you say may be, there's something to be said
for new and at your leisure rebuild the old one and you've got a spare...

That's my plan.
Unless it's the pressure switch.

I have no idea how old it is though.
But it could be the original for all I know.

I think it might NOT be the pump though.
That's why I need to ask how the pressure switch works.

The one thing that perplexes me is that I don't see ANY indication of the
bladder pressure being measured.

It looks like what's being measured is the INPUT pressure to the pump, not
the OUTPUT pressure.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9113867pressure02.jpg

But that makes no sense.
Does it?

Others answered most of the other regarding pieces-parts; there's no
need for the identical motor down to being GE; form factor, HP and
service rating are the key items...

The "frame" is what matters, I think, as long as it's about 1HP and 3450
RPM, which is the easy part. I'm not sure what the "frame" is though.
Is the "frame" on this sticker?
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2105511pressure05.jpg

The first Q? still is to determine whether it's the motor or the pump
with the problem, however.

Yup. The pump appears to have two switches that control it.
a. The water level indicator relay (which is known to be working fine!)
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1279096pressure07.jpg
b. The booster pressure indicator relay (which is a mystery to me)
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5845028pressure08.jpg

The "mystery" is that there is NOTHING coming out of the booster by way of
pressure sensors that I can see.


The pressure sensor is the pressure control switch that you previously called a relay. It has a water pipe connection on it. Those two nuts adjust the cut-in and cut-out pressures.

Now that you described the whole setup, I see why you're calling it a booster pump.




http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5816454pressure03.jpg

The gauge seems to be INPUT pressure, but that makes no sense.
Who cares what the input pressure is.
The OUTPUT pressure is what matters, right?

On 8/13/18 10:54 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
On 13 Aug 2018 18:25:12 GMT, Dean Hoffman wrote:

70 psi is probably the shutdown point. 50 psi will probably be the
pump starting point.

Thanks for mentioning that the 70 psi is the shutdown point.
I'm guessing it's measuring that right off the bladder, even though the
gauge is on the pump itself.

Given that the gauge generally reads the same all the time, that 70 psi
"might" also be the pressure of the column of water in the full tanks (I'd
have to do the F=P/A math) where the tanks are ten feet high a few feet
behind the motor).

One thing I need to look at is whether the pressure gauge shows a lower
pressure when the home has no water pressure. I "think" it always shows the
same pressure - so that's why I think it might be showing the pressure of
the water column BEFORE it gets to the pump (I'd have to check in the
morning as I had not thought about it until now).

The thing you're calling the relay is the pressure switch.
Notice the tube leading away from it.

Ah. That tube. I didn't notice it until you mentioned it!
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5845028pressure08.jpg

Hmmmm... so the pressure coming out of the bladder is NOT being sensed.
I don't see *any* wires or sense tubes coming out of the bladder tank!
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5816454pressure03.jpg

That is interesting. If I bypass that, the pump should go on and off
(depending on if it's normally open or normally closed).

For it to be a pressure switch, it needs a 'sensor' somewhere.
Maybe the sensor is under those contacts?

I'd probably just replace the entire pump. There will be wear on
the impeller so it won't be at its most efficient.

I don't disagree. I've disassembled plenty of pumps, where almost all the
time the outdoor water pumps have these long bolts that break EVERY damn
time. I spend most of my time trying to get them out.

Meanwhile, the bearings are frozen onto the shaft (especially if they were
making noise).

The good news is that bearings are dirt cheap - the bad news is that taking
apart the motors generally is impossible due to those long bolts that
break.

I don't mind replacing the pump, but I can't find an exact one on Google.
The model number just doesn't match anything. I do have an email that I
sent to GE and I will call General Electric in the morning to ask where I
can get a replacement.

I'm not beholden to GE - but I have to match that 'frame'.
Do you have advice as to what the frame is?
I don't see it explicitly on the label.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2105511pressure05.jpg
Do you?

56C. You can probably buy the bearings at an auto parts store.
The pumps I'm familiar with (Berkeley) have this seal.
http://www.spapumpsandmore.com/v/vspfiles/photos/PPUFSEALVITON-2.jpg
Replace it.
I'd probably just buy a pump of the same horsepower if I was
replacing it. It should
handle the job. The wiring, circuit breaker, etc are sized for that
horsepower.
Just out of curiosity, is the wiring code compliant?

On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 10:54:46 PM UTC-5, Arlen Holder wrote:
On 13 Aug 2018 18:35:11 GMT, Uncle Monster wrote:

Go fellate yourself Traitor_4ever.
I didn't see you offering any help.
You lack the expertise to assist the fellow or to be concerned
about his safety anyway so your best bet is to STFU.

Let's stop bickering.
It's just foolish to say "call a plumber" on this newsgroup.
You got all upset that I said that - and I understand.

I apologize if you're all upset.

You think I'm gonna kill myself, and I told you I'm an EE but that doesn't
(a) give me immunity from electrocution, nor does it (b) teach me anything
about how the pressure switch works, and (c) it doesn't help me figure out
what "frame" this pump happens to use.

You can continue to be afraid of your own shadow, but I'm not.

All I need, for now, is helpful advice.
Your advice, so far, has not been helpful.

To be helpful, if you actually have experience you claim, then you would
easily be able to answer these three basic questions.
1. How does that pressure switch work (so I can troubleshoot it)?
2. If I replace the switch or pump, what specs matter?
3. If I replace just the bearings, what else would you order to replace?

Most pressure switches work off the air pressure from the air trapped in the top of the water tank. Most pressure switches made for well water and pressure tank systems share similar characteristics. The switches are adjustable to the desired pressure and control the contactor(high current power relay) that supplies power to the pump. As far as the pump or motor goes, there should be nameplates on the units that have the specifications, otherwise, you should be able to look up the specs using the model numbers and cross-reference the equipment to a different brand or similar equipment. The bearing replacement on an electric motor is usually straightforward and if it's some years old, you may consider replacing the motor capacitor or capacitors if there are start and a run capacitors. There are websites that go into more detail with pictures on servicing pump and pressure tank systems. ^_^

https://tinyurl.com/yatp85n7

https://tinyurl.com/y8dugtml

[8~{} Uncle Pumpped Monster

On 8/13/2018 10:54 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
On 13 Aug 2018 18:25:12 GMT, Dean Hoffman wrote:

70 psi is probably the shutdown point. 50 psi will probably be the
pump starting point.

Thanks for mentioning that the 70 psi is the shutdown point.
I'm guessing it's measuring that right off the bladder, even though the
gauge is on the pump itself.


Given that the gauge generally reads the same all the time, that 70 psi
"might" also be the pressure of the column of water in the full tanks (I'd
have to do the F=P/A math) where the tanks are ten feet high a few feet
behind the motor).

It's static pressure of the system at the point; there will be a check
valve down the well so it doesn't run back down when pump is off..

One thing I need to look at is whether the pressure gauge shows a lower
pressure when the home has no water pressure. I "think" it always shows the
same pressure - so that's why I think it might be showing the pressure of
the water column BEFORE it gets to the pump (I'd have to check in the
morning as I had not thought about it until now).

It's quite possible it always reads the same pressure because it's
frozen up...and/or the orifice in the base is plugged.

The thing you're calling the relay is the pressure switch.
Notice the tube leading away from it.

Ah. That tube. I didn't notice it until you mentioned it!
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5845028pressure08.jpg

Hmmmm... so the pressure coming out of the bladder is NOT being sensed.
I don't see *any* wires or sense tubes coming out of the bladder tank!
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5816454pressure03.jpg

That is interesting. If I bypass that, the pump should go on and off
(depending on if it's normally open or normally closed).

For it to be a pressure switch, it needs a 'sensor' somewhere.
Maybe the sensor is under those contacts?

The "sensor" is just a calibrated spring; you can adjust the on/off
pressure within reason by the turn screw.

....

On 8/13/2018 10:54 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
....

Hmmmm... so the pressure coming out of the bladder is NOT being sensed.
I don't see *any* wires or sense tubes coming out of the bladder tank!
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5816454pressure03.jpg

....

Where do the leads for what you keep calling a level switch relay come
from? There's got to be _something_ for it if it indeed is anything
more than interposing relay.

--

On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 10:28:50 AM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 8/13/2018 10:54 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
...

Hmmmm... so the pressure coming out of the bladder is NOT being sensed.
I don't see *any* wires or sense tubes coming out of the bladder tank!
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5816454pressure03.jpg

...

Where do the leads for what you keep calling a level switch relay come
from? There's got to be _something_ for it if it indeed is anything
more than interposing relay.

--

IDK why he insists on debugging the whole system. I guess if he wants
to know how it works, that's OK. But he heard a squeal coming from
the pump, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I'd simply wait
until it's not working and see if there is voltage on the motor.
If yes, he knows the pump is the problem. If not, then he can just
follow the voltage.

He keeps looking for a sensor or wires coming out of the tank. Yet
he posted a picture of a pump pressure switch, clear as day. That
is the "sensor" and that has to have a connection to the water coming out
of it. It doesn't have to be hooked directly to the tank, it could
just be connected to the water line coming out of the tank.

On 8/14/2018 9:50 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 10:28:50 AM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 8/13/2018 10:54 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
...

Hmmmm... so the pressure coming out of the bladder is NOT being sensed.
I don't see *any* wires or sense tubes coming out of the bladder tank!
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5816454pressure03.jpg

...

Where do the leads for what you keep calling a level switch relay come
from? There's got to be _something_ for it if it indeed is anything
more than interposing relay.

--

IDK why he insists on debugging the whole system. I guess if he wants
to know how it works, that's OK. But he heard a squeal coming from
the pump, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I'd simply wait
until it's not working and see if there is voltage on the motor.
If yes, he knows the pump is the problem. If not, then he can just
follow the voltage.

He keeps looking for a sensor or wires coming out of the tank. Yet
he posted a picture of a pump pressure switch, clear as day. That
is the "sensor" and that has to have a connection to the water coming out
of it. It doesn't have to be hooked directly to the tank, it could
just be connected to the water line coming out of the tank.


'Cuz it's clear he really _doesn't_ know how just how it works nor does
he even recognize what some of the pieces-parts are so doesn't
understand what is/isn't possibly significant...and appears to be one of
those that doesn't do anything until has studied it to satisfaction
whether it needs study or not...

Yes, since the system is all tied together, for the purposes of control
"pressure is pressure" at the point relatively close to the tank. He
should investigate the possibility the gauge itself is stuck; it's
immaterial to system operation but if not functional could lead to
confusing the issues thinking there's pressure when there's not...the
one here was stuck last month when we hooked up the new well--I hadn't
noticed until we opened the system and the needle didn't move...

I'm still curious about this so-called "level" sensor,
though...somewhere he talked about there being open tanks; I suppose if
he does have a larger reservoir besides the pressure tank somewhere else
there could be a level sensor in one or them...in that case the leads
will run out wherever that is.

What isn't shown clearly is how the well pump is controlled; whether
there really is a second sensor or whether that other relay is just the
secondary to it off the pressure switch on the booster pump.

--

On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 11:24:29 AM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 8/14/2018 9:50 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 10:28:50 AM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 8/13/2018 10:54 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
...

Hmmmm... so the pressure coming out of the bladder is NOT being sensed.
I don't see *any* wires or sense tubes coming out of the bladder tank!
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5816454pressure03.jpg

...

Where do the leads for what you keep calling a level switch relay come
from? There's got to be _something_ for it if it indeed is anything
more than interposing relay.

--

IDK why he insists on debugging the whole system. I guess if he wants
to know how it works, that's OK. But he heard a squeal coming from
the pump, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I'd simply wait
until it's not working and see if there is voltage on the motor.
If yes, he knows the pump is the problem. If not, then he can just
follow the voltage.

He keeps looking for a sensor or wires coming out of the tank. Yet
he posted a picture of a pump pressure switch, clear as day. That
is the "sensor" and that has to have a connection to the water coming out
of it. It doesn't have to be hooked directly to the tank, it could
just be connected to the water line coming out of the tank.


'Cuz it's clear he really _doesn't_ know how just how it works nor does
he even recognize what some of the pieces-parts are so doesn't
understand what is/isn't possibly significant...and appears to be one of
those that doesn't do anything until has studied it to satisfaction
whether it needs study or not...

Yes, since the system is all tied together, for the purposes of control
"pressure is pressure" at the point relatively close to the tank. He
should investigate the possibility the gauge itself is stuck; it's
immaterial to system operation but if not functional could lead to
confusing the issues thinking there's pressure when there's not...the
one here was stuck last month when we hooked up the new well--I hadn't
noticed until we opened the system and the needle didn't move...

I'm still curious about this so-called "level" sensor,
though...somewhere he talked about there being open tanks; I suppose if
he does have a larger reservoir besides the pressure tank somewhere else
there could be a level sensor in one or them...in that case the leads
will run out wherever that is.

I bet this is a low flow well and the tanks are there to slowly accumulate
water over a long period. We had another poster here, Danny I believe,
that had this kind of system. Are they one and the same? IDK. That they
both had a penchant for over analyzing, taking lots of pictures would
suggest they are. But I didn't think Danny was the kind of guy that
would be mounting tires at home or fueling his car at home from cans,
so IDK.





What isn't shown clearly is how the well pump is controlled; whether
there really is a second sensor or whether that other relay is just the
secondary to it off the pressure switch on the booster pump.

--

I would bet that the submersible is controlled by a level sensor in
the storage tanks and that another float serves as an interlock on
the pressure pump to keep it from running if the water in the tanks
is all gone.

But again, seems to me the only thing he really needs to do is see if
there is voltage on that pump when it's not working. He said it was
squealing, but I guess it could also squeal if it was out of water,
so maybe that's a possibility too. Come to think about it, being out
of water would also fit with it happening only when it's used for
irrigation. But that could also fit with a motor going bad, the
problem showing up when it's used the most. You'd also think that
if the water wasn't flowing, one of the first things you'd check would
be if the tanks were empty, but who knows.

On 8/14/2018 10:41 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 11:24:29 AM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 8/14/2018 9:50 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 10:28:50 AM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 8/13/2018 10:54 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
...

Hmmmm... so the pressure coming out of the bladder is NOT being sensed.
I don't see *any* wires or sense tubes coming out of the bladder tank!
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5816454pressure03.jpg

...

Where do the leads for what you keep calling a level switch relay come
from? There's got to be _something_ for it if it indeed is anything
more than interposing relay.

--

IDK why he insists on debugging the whole system. I guess if he wants
to know how it works, that's OK. But he heard a squeal coming from
the pump, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I'd simply wait
until it's not working and see if there is voltage on the motor.
If yes, he knows the pump is the problem. If not, then he can just
follow the voltage.

He keeps looking for a sensor or wires coming out of the tank. Yet
he posted a picture of a pump pressure switch, clear as day. That
is the "sensor" and that has to have a connection to the water coming out
of it. It doesn't have to be hooked directly to the tank, it could
just be connected to the water line coming out of the tank.


'Cuz it's clear he really _doesn't_ know how just how it works nor does
he even recognize what some of the pieces-parts are so doesn't
understand what is/isn't possibly significant...and appears to be one of
those that doesn't do anything until has studied it to satisfaction
whether it needs study or not...

Yes, since the system is all tied together, for the purposes of control
"pressure is pressure" at the point relatively close to the tank. He
should investigate the possibility the gauge itself is stuck; it's
immaterial to system operation but if not functional could lead to
confusing the issues thinking there's pressure when there's not...the
one here was stuck last month when we hooked up the new well--I hadn't
noticed until we opened the system and the needle didn't move...

I'm still curious about this so-called "level" sensor,
though...somewhere he talked about there being open tanks; I suppose if
he does have a larger reservoir besides the pressure tank somewhere else
there could be a level sensor in one or them...in that case the leads
will run out wherever that is.

I bet this is a low flow well and the tanks are there to slowly accumulate
water over a long period. We had another poster here, Danny I believe,
that had this kind of system. Are they one and the same? IDK. That they
both had a penchant for over analyzing, taking lots of pictures would
suggest they are. But I didn't think Danny was the kind of guy that
would be mounting tires at home or fueling his car at home from cans,
so IDK.





What isn't shown clearly is how the well pump is controlled; whether
there really is a second sensor or whether that other relay is just the
secondary to it off the pressure switch on the booster pump.

--

I would bet that the submersible is controlled by a level sensor in
the storage tanks and that another float serves as an interlock on
the pressure pump to keep it from running if the water in the tanks
is all gone.

But again, seems to me the only thing he really needs to do is see if
there is voltage on that pump when it's not working. He said it was
squealing, but I guess it could also squeal if it was out of water,
so maybe that's a possibility too. Come to think about it, being out
of water would also fit with it happening only when it's used for
irrigation. But that could also fit with a motor going bad, the
problem showing up when it's used the most. You'd also think that
if the water wasn't flowing, one of the first things you'd check would
be if the tanks were empty, but who knows.

Agreed, I was simply suggesting it would be interesting to actually know
for certain that is the setup.

As far as diagnostics, that's certainly where to start when it isn't
functioning; then see if thermal switch tripped it and work backwards.

Certainly there's almost certainly new or rebuilt in the near future
given there is squealing at least on one occasion; who knows what noises
it makes while running and nobody's around before it quits or does shut
off in time to not actually fail.

That's a good call probably on the low-capacity well and reason for
storage tank(s)--I'm not used to having to do that; there's always
plenty of water in a hole here for domestic wells...so the trickle over
longer time concept doesn't come into play and don't actively think
about that kind of installation. The level/float switch then does make
perfect sense to control the actual pump.

--

On 8/14/2018 11:58 AM, dpb wrote:
....

That's a good call probably on the low-capacity well and reason for
storage tank(s)--I'm not used to having to do that; there's always
plenty of water in a hole here for domestic wells...so the trickle over
longer time concept doesn't come into play and don't actively think
about that kind of installation.Â* The level/float switch then does make
perfect sense to control the actual pump.

Wonder if he knows what the down-hole pump capacity/HP rating
is...that'd give an idea what its output is.

The new well here put out 75 gpm w/ an almost wore-out oilfield 10 hp
rig for the test/cleanout run...it probably has at least 3X the
capacity; put a 3 in the hole that's between 25-30 gpm which is plenty
for the house and cattle...

--

On 14 Aug 2018 03:25:10 GMT, Dean Hoffman wrote:

56C.

Yeah. I saw that, belatedly as "FR 56C". Thanks.

That means I really only need a "jet pump motor" that is frame 56C that is
1 HP (service factor 1.4 or thereabouts).

What's amazing to me is that the pressure must be held in that motor rubber
o-rings because the pressure tube is on the output of the motor. That's
amazing that it holds the pressure so well at the impeller.

You can probably buy the bearings at an auto parts store.

I just replaced the flywheel pilot bearing in a Toyota so I do realize that
I can "find" a bearing locally if I have it in my hands, but the problem is
downtime - especially if it's a non-standard bearing.

Bearings are dirt cheap - but they have to be the right size & type.
I tried GE but they don't provide parts diagrams, they say.

The pumps I'm familiar with (Berkeley) have this seal.
http://www.spapumpsandmore.com/v/vspfiles/photos/PPUFSEALVITON-2.jpg
Replace it.

Thank you for pointing out the seal, as this pump must have a similarly
amazing seal, since it holds pressure at the impeller side of the pump at
about 75 PSI without any leaking that I can determine.

That's just amazing.
Suffice to say that seal will be hard to source also - without parts
diagrams anyway ... so my main goal is a parts diagram but GE says they
don't supply them.

I tried a local pump place that GE recommended (Johnstone Pumps) but they
only sell to pros (and they didn't find a lookup for the model anyway and
they told me nobody rebuilds pumps - too expensive to do so).

I'd probably just buy a pump of the same horsepower if I was
replacing it.

I agree. The downtime will be only an hour or so, compared to days to
source the parts if I have to take the pump apart first.

It should
handle the job. The wiring, circuit breaker, etc are sized for that
horsepower.

I agree. The simplest path is to troubleshoot the reason why the pump is
intermittently not going on, and, if that indicates a problem with the
pump, to just replace it and then take my sweet time rebuilding the old one
(or turn it into a wood lathe or disc sander).

Just out of curiosity, is the wiring code compliant?

I'm sure it is as everything else is code compliant (AFAIK).

On 14 Aug 2018 00:54:22 GMT, trader_4 wrote:

The pressure sensor is the pressure control switch that you
previously called a relay. It has a water pipe connection on it.

I see the water pipe that someone mentioned, where it's also a relay based
on all those contacts visible on top.

I guess it surprises me that the front of the pump where the impeller must
be is "pressurized" since that's where the metal tube is coming out of.

The pump must have an EXCELLENT seal to hold that much pressure for so long
without leaking past 75PSI at any time I've ever looked.

Those two nuts adjust the cut-in and cut-out pressures.

That's good to know as I didn't know what exactly they adjusted.

Now that you described the whole setup, I see why you're calling
it a booster pump.

The pump appears to have only one purpose, which is to boost the water
pressure of the bladder from ambient pressure to about 75 psi.

I've seen these bladders everywhere where I live, so, they're pretty common
(every single home has one).

It's odd that someone said the "water tank" is pressurized, as that would
be astoundingly crazy to pressurize a 10,000 gallon set of tanks when all
you need to do is pressurize these little 4-foot tall bladder tanks.

On 14 Aug 2018 05:01:41 GMT, Uncle Monster wrote:

Most pressure switches work off the air pressure from the air trapped
in the top of the water tank.

Thank you for being helpful on the questions asked.

The 10,000 gallon water tanks are unpressurized - they simply hold water.
They can't be pressurized as there is a manhole cover on top that fits
loosely and there is a three or four inch vent in the middle of the top
also.

The only tank that is "pressurized" is the four-foot tall blue bladder tank
that is pictured in the previous set of photos inside the pressure pump
shed.

Most pressure switches made for well water and pressure tank systems
share similar characteristics.

I'm sure of that, which is why asking here on a.h.r can be fruitful.

The switches are adjustable to the desired pressure and control the
contactor(high current power relay) that supplies power to the pump.

You bring up an interesting point that the pressure switch may be
adjustable, which, if I can find the adjustment, would be useful perhaps
for troubleshooting purposes.

As far as the pump or motor goes, there should be nameplates on the
units that have the specifications, otherwise, you should be able to
look up the specs using the model numbers and cross-reference the
equipment to a different brand or similar equipment.

As shown in the photos, you're correct the nameplate has everything I need.
* 1 HP (Service Factor 1.4), single-phase 115/230VAC, Frame 56C, Code L

It's the Internet that doesn't have any parts diagrams on the model:
* General Electric Jet Pump Motor Model 5KC39QN1157AX

I called GE, which was a two-hour experience because GE sold all their
motors to two different enterprises...

Fractional HP Motors went to Riegel Beloit at 260-416-5400
1HP & up went to Marathon/Century 800-541-7191

You don't want to know what happened when I called each of those.

The bearing replacement on an electric motor is usually straightforward
and if it's some years old, you may consider replacing the motor capacitor
or capacitors if there are start and a run capacitors.

I'm familiar with the "bulge" of the electrolytic starting caps but I don't
see one in this motor (it could be internal - but probably not) - but
that's a good idea to keep in mind for what to purchase ahead of time in
addition to the bearings.

I can't yet find a parts diagram where Riegel Beloit told me that this
motor was specially made for Marathon and then for Jacuzzi Brothers, so a
parts diagram may be hard to find based on the model number alone.

There are websites that go into more detail with pictures on
servicing pump and pressure tank systems.
https://tinyurl.com/yatp85n7
https://tinyurl.com/y8dugtml

Thanks for those URLs. As noted, I've replaced and rebuilt motors before,
where the main issue is that of downtime so I want to source the bearings
first. Once the bearings are in my hands, they're easy to source but it
takes time if they're not standard sizes - so that's why I'm seeking a
parts diagram first.

On 8/14/2018 2:37 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
....

The pump appears to have only one purpose, which is to boost the water
pressure of the bladder from ambient pressure to about 75 psi.

I've seen these bladders everywhere where I live, so, they're pretty common
(every single home has one).

It's odd that someone said the "water tank" is pressurized, as that would
be astoundingly crazy to pressurize a 10,000 gallon set of tanks when all
you need to do is pressurize these little 4-foot tall bladder tanks.


Well, if one has well capacity that is sufficient for demand, the
"normal" way a system is configured is that the pressure tank _is_ the
pressurizing element for the distribution system when the pump isn't
running and there is no secondary booster pump.

The air pressure in the tank is set at -2 psi relative to cutout
setpoint when the tank is empty and the bladder/diaphragm is then
compressed/stretched to produce exit water pressure on demand.

The system here operates 40-60 psi with an 80 gal pressure tank
capacity; when the pressure drops below the low cut-in, the pump kicks
on and supplies both demand and refills the tank to pressure at which it
cuts off and the cycle starts over...

With a system such as yours you have an extremely large reservoir
because (apparently) the well can't keep up to demand and so must be
able to pump into the holding tank whether there's current demand or not
in order to have sufficient volume on hand for demand.

Or, demand rate could possibly be very high if one were doing
large-scale irrigation or the like, but normal residential demand plus
several hundred head of cattle doesn't tax this well at all even on 100+
F days when they hit the water pretty hard.

Granted, it would make no sense to try to pressurize the whole system
under that operating scenario, but as noted, while that's what's common
where you are, overall that's a relatively uncommon installation type;
definitely not what I was thinking of when we started!

As for how good a seal; 75-100 psi isn't all that much to try to seal;
also note and check -- given the age of the system there's at least a
reasonable chance that pressure gauge isn't working at all but is frozen
up, particularly if it's not an oil-filled one but direct.

--

On 8/14/2018 2:37 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
On 14 Aug 2018 00:54:22 GMT, trader_4 wrote:

The pressure sensor is the pressure control switch that you
previously called a relay. It has a water pipe connection on it.

I see the water pipe that someone mentioned, where it's also a relay based
on all those contacts visible on top.
....

That's why it's called a pressure "switch"

The water pressure compresses the spring until the contacts lift (open)
when pressure reaches the setpoint thus stopping the pump, when the
pressure drops the spring relaxes as the bottom support goes away and
eventually the contacts close turning the pump back on...

Given your system configuration, I'm still curious as to what size pump
is down-hole if you know???

Also, is the a production ag operation or the like so irrigation demands
are extremely high volume as compared to "just" lawn. 10,000 gal would
be about 1/3-rd of an Acre-inch of water or an inch over a third of an
acre which would be pretty hefty for most residences...

--

On 14 Aug 2018 07:00:20 GMT, dpb wrote:

It's static pressure of the system at the point; there will be a check
valve down the well so it doesn't run back down when pump is off..

You're right!

I tested the gauge pressure just now by turning off the power and then
running the garden hoses at the house until they petered out.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=8580487pump08.jpg

Interestingly, at the booster pump shed, the hose on the wall did NOT peter
out, as the pressure gauge barely dropped from a bit over 70psi ....
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6541228pump03.jpg
to about 66 psi when the water was an unusable dribble at the house
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5704779pump11.jpg Gauge at 66psi

I could tell that the blue booster tank was 'empty' as I could tilt it by
hand ever so slightly when it is empty but I can't budge it when it is
full.

And yet, when I turned on the faucet on the pump house wall, it was fine!
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=7395493pump12.jpg

So that gauge pressure is really almost completely input pressure!

It's quite possible it always reads the same pressure because it's
frozen up...and/or the orifice in the base is plugged.

The gage appears to be working as there was plenty of pressure (i.e.,
66psi) "at" the booster pump shed - but none a few hundred feet away at the
house.

So it appears that the "static pressure" of a full tank of water in the
10,000 gallon tanks is about 65psi. The booster pump boosts that up so that
the water won't just dribble at the house.

It has to be the input pressure, actually, just looking at the front of the
motor, which is a big cast-iron casing - that must be the pressure area:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9413854pump02.jpg

The "sensor" is just a calibrated spring; you can adjust the on/off
pressure within reason by the turn screw.

Thanks for the description of the pressure sensor and switch, where I took
a look today at the *bottom* to see the pressure pipe coming in:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=3186082pump05.jpg

I see there are two nuts that can be calibrated at the front of the sensor:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9137017pump07.jpg

And two sets of power lines going into the back of the sensor:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6939192pump06.jpg

And a closer look shows the input tube of water pressure on the bottom.
The wires appear to have two circuits from the side.

The pressure sensor switch casing says "Pumptrol" on the outside.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1957278pump10.jpg

Printed inside it says Control Circuit A600, Square D,
Class 9013, Ser B, Type FSG-2, On 30, off 50, Form U,
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6351926pump09.jpg