On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 07:20:42 -0500, CRNG wrote:

b) If the previous owner did not own the tank, (e.g. it was owned by the
gas company-A ) then the gas company owns it.

c) When gas company-A was bought by gas company-B, then company-B became
the new owner of the tank, assuming company-B bought all the assets of
company-A (and not just it's name).

From what I've read, the tank was probably *not* bought by the PO.

Of course, I'll also ask for written proof that my current gas supplier
owns the tank; but I assume they would have that so I would simply expect
to doublecheck the serial number, just in case the tank had been replaced
unbeknownst to me and to the propane company.

In North Carolina, we now know that ownership rights to the above-ground
tanks need to be established at the county level, by the propane company
filing and renewing a form certifying their ownership.

So, I will also check with my California county today, to see if a similar
provision exists for my state.

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 08:22:27 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Wow, that's funny. I can hear them laughing all the way over here.
They will counter with a tank rental bill, of course.

Just to be clear, I have no intention of asking *them* for rental
and, I certainly hope they have just as little intention of asking
*me* for the back rent.

In my case, back rent would likely exceed the cost of the tank,
so, I would just tell them to take their tank back.

Then I'd put in a new tank, but, at least I'd have clear and
free title to that new tank.

In article ,
Alex Gunderson wrote:


So, now I'm making plans for buying a new tank, and putting it in
myself.

Why? The propane company seems to be tickled pink to fill it. Since
they bought the other company, it is most likely theirs anyway. I don't
see any reason to spend the money to bring the new one up to code under
the circumstances and I certainly don't see any need to take ownership
of the tank (with attendant small but still not trivial legal risks that
attach).



It looks like I'll need the following (based on new regulations
of distance from the house and earthquake resistance which had
grandfathered the original tank but don't apply to new):
* new 1,000 gallon propane tank *
* reinforced concrete pad with tie-down eyehooks or lag bolts *
* trench must be 12" deep minimum & 18" if driven over *
* underground yellow flexible conduit (25' minimum distance) *
* two galvanized steel risers at the tank *
* high pressure regulator at the tank for the house *
* low pressure regulator at the tank for the pool & BBQ *
* low pressure regulator at the house *
--
America is at that awkward stage. It's too late
to work within the system, but too early to shoot
the *******s."-- Claire Wolfe

On Friday, September 27, 2013 8:56:10 AM UTC-4, Alex Gunderson wrote:
On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 05:01:02 -0700, bob haller wrote:



http://www.ncagr.gov/standard/LP/LPg....htm#Delivery5



This section was particularly useful:

"If the buyer makes it clear that they have made the effort to confirm

the status of fixtures, and if the propane tank and its contents were

not excluded, then they may have a legitimate claim of ownership should

the question come up."



I wonder if my "as is" discloser is enough on due diligence?


The key question here is a claim against who? They are talking
about the seller not stating who owns the tank, disclosing that it
is not theirs, etc at the time of sale. In that case, what they
are saying is that you may have a claim against the SELLER. It kind
of makes sense. The tank was attached, and usually that which is
attached is included in the sale. On the other side, the argument
would be that it's common for tanks to be rented, not owned, and
you the buyer assumed it was owned, etc. This probably has come
up before and there would be court history on it. The other part
is that even if you have a claim, it's can you collect? Do you
even know where the seller is now?

On 9/26/2013 7:23 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 23:56:06 +0000 (UTC), Alex Gunderson
wrote:

I realize this is a legal question but has anyone here had this happen.
Any advice?

1. Bought a house, as is, in 2010, which came with a 1,000 gallon propane tank attached.
2. Entered into agreement with fuel company "1" for fuel in 2010.
3. No tank rental is paid to fuel company 1 because it's not their tank

Also consider that no "rental" is paid because you are buying gas from
them. I contracted with a propane company to place a tank on our
property solely for the purpose of providing LPG to heat the swimming
pool. No rental was ever charged... UNTIL... we severely cut back on
the use of the heater and were not constantly filling it. They then
instituted what they called a "drayage" charge, charging us $x.xx per month.

"Fired" that company and new one brought in a similar tank with no
drayage charge. Eventually got rid of pool and heater but next door
neighbor installed a pool and needed propane for it so they moved it
next door. He STILL has it and pays only for the gas he uses.

Why would you want to "own" it. If you own it, you're responsible for
maintenance. If you stop using the gas, what are you going to do? Plant
petunias in it after you cut it in half?

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 08:25:05 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

You will have to find one and have it installed yourself

That's exactly what I'm scoping out.

It looks like I may need to:
a. Buy the tank & have it delivered empty
b. Lay a reinforced concrete pad, with tie-down bolts
c. Trench 12" deep for a minimum of 25' from the house
d. Lay conduit & metal guide wire
e. Add risers for the high & low pressure regulator

The propane company apparently owns the equipment
from the riser to the tank (which includes the
regulators).

On Friday, September 27, 2013 9:13:49 AM UTC-4, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 9/26/2013 7:23 PM, wrote:

On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 23:56:06 +0000 (UTC), Alex Gunderson

wrote:



I realize this is a legal question but has anyone here had this happen.

Any advice?



1. Bought a house, as is, in 2010, which came with a 1,000 gallon propane tank attached.

2. Entered into agreement with fuel company "1" for fuel in 2010.

3. No tank rental is paid to fuel company 1 because it's not their tank



Also consider that no "rental" is paid because you are buying gas from

them.

But he wasn't buying gas from the company he now believes
owns the tank for years after he bought the house. He used
a different company.


I contracted with a propane company to place a tank on our

property solely for the purpose of providing LPG to heat the swimming

pool. No rental was ever charged... UNTIL... we severely cut back on

the use of the heater and were not constantly filling it. They then

instituted what they called a "drayage" charge, charging us $x.xx per month.



That makes sense.



"Fired" that company and new one brought in a similar tank with no

drayage charge. Eventually got rid of pool and heater but next door

neighbor installed a pool and needed propane for it so they moved it

next door. He STILL has it and pays only for the gas he uses.



Why would you want to "own" it. If you own it, you're responsible for

maintenance.

I guess because he says the current company would charge $15/mth
if he were renting it from them. He says a new tank costs $1000.



If you stop using the gas, what are you going to do? Plant

petunias in it after you cut it in half?

If he's using it for heat and cooking and he knows he's in
an area where he's very unlikely to change fuels, then I
don't see stopping gas usage as being an issue.
How long these
tanks last and what you do with them when they have to
be disposed of, could be an issue. I would
suspect that the gas company has answers to all that.
I would not be surprised to find that if you call a gas
company and get one of their tanks, as either rental or
buying it, that they would take away the old tank, probably
for a charge. But saving $1000 every 6 years, I'd say
he's still going to come out way ahead.

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 08:33:35 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

I've heard that in NYS, if the tank has a
company logo, that other companies will
refuse to fill it.

Here, in CA, they will only fill their tank or your
tank, but not someone else's tank.

There is no logo on this tank.

Thanks, good attention to detail. Line up the
ducks, so he doesn't get quacked over the head
with some issue later? Then he might really
be ducked up, with a huge tank to duck around
with.

ducks and runs

..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about "behold, I come quackly!" Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 9/27/2013 8:56 AM, wrote:
On Friday, September 27, 2013 8:41:20 AM UTC-4, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Are you unhappy with the present company?

Why discuss all the work to change tanks,

if the existing tank is in acceptable shape?



Stormin, that's what inquiring minds want to know.....
I'm confused here too. I asked why he was so concerned,
what the current issue was and he said:

"Because I want to line up my ducks.
Just in case they come to me, I don't want to say something stupid.
I just want to know where I stand, legally. "


Then later he laid out his intention to buy a new tank, pour a
new pad, etc and put it in. If it were me, I'd just continue
to use the existing tank. And if I could find the previous
owner, I'd contact them and ask who owned the tank.

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 08:34:27 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

I don't see the title company getting involved.

I don't disagree with you.

But it's worth the call to the title company.

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 08:41:20 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Are you unhappy with the present company?
Nope.

Why discuss all the work to change tanks,
if the existing tank is in acceptable shape?

Only for economy.

The propane company charges one rate for people who
rent the tank (in addition to the monthly rental fee).

But, they charge a lower rate for those who own
their tanks (with the benefit of no rental fee).

I'm assuming (rough calculations) that the tank will
pay for itself in a year or two given those dynamics
(at least that is what I had calculated years ago).

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 05:52:20 -0700, wrote:

Apparently they questioned him as to who owned the tank and he filled out
an affidavit stating that he owned it.

Confirmed.

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 05:52:20 -0700, wrote:

I doubt an abandonment claim would work too, but without knowing the state
laws on the subject, who knows. If it meets the terms of the law, I don't
think it would be hard to prove. The fact that it's been sitting there,
out in the open for X years and the company who owns it has done nothing,
is obvious. But the specifics of the law are what will count.

Understood.
They could have come at any time to pick it up.
They didn't.

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 08:39:40 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

I might have missed it. Is there some reason you
don't just keep hiring the existing company to
fill your propane? What's the big ownership
question? Are they far too expensive?

Good question.
I'm actually happy with the existing company.

The only thing that 'may' change is they may charge
a rental fee (which, over time, would, at some point,
exceed the cost of the tank) and they may charge a
higher rate for the propane.

Plus, I can no longer shop around and go to someone
else for propane (who may have a lower cost).

Given that there are 1,000 gallons, even a minor
50 cent difference in price could make a large
difference (over time) in total ownership cost.

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 08:30:27 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

If the tank has a company logo on it "BURNWELL
GAS" for example, it's probably owned by them.
If it's just white, it may have been purchased
outright by the HO, or maybe no one remembers.

It's just painted a cream color. No log whatsoever.

The serial plate has a company of manufacture and
a date but no gas company listing.

I'm pretty sure (but not positive) now that the
propane company probably owns the tank, unless they
didn't fill out the requisite paperwork (but this all
would need to be confirmed).

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 08:13:49 -0500, Unquestionably Confused wrote:

If you stop using the gas, what are you going to do?

That's an interesting question, as I hadn't considered any other
option but propane.

I guess, if I stop using gas, my options a
- For heating: Use a wood burner instead
- For hot water: Use electricity
- For the stove: Use electricity
- For the pool: Don't heat it
- For the BBQ: Use a portable propane tank
- For the dryer: Use electricity
- In which case, I'd add solar panels (for sure!)

But, at this point, I don't think it's reasonable to think I'll
invest in switching over all that equipment to alternative fuels.

On Friday, September 27, 2013 10:33:41 AM UTC-4, Alex Gunderson wrote:
On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 08:41:20 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:



Are you unhappy with the present company?

Nope.



Why discuss all the work to change tanks,

if the existing tank is in acceptable shape?



Only for economy.



The propane company charges one rate for people who

rent the tank (in addition to the monthly rental fee).



But, they charge a lower rate for those who own

their tanks (with the benefit of no rental fee).



I'm assuming (rough calculations) that the tank will

pay for itself in a year or two given those dynamics

(at least that is what I had calculated years ago).

But unless I've gotten it all wrong, you're not paying
anything to rent the tank now because no one is billing
you for it. So, why worry about it? You said the gas
company would charge $15/mth to rent you a tank and you
can buy one for $1000. So, why do anything now?

If someday they come to you and claim it's been their
tank for the last 7 years and you owe them money, that's
when I'd do something. And the something would be to
tell them you believed it was your tank, and it's
not your problem. If they persist,
offer the company some reasonable amount to settle it.
There is a statute of limitations on any claims for
money owed. Find out what it is. They can't go after
you for 15 years worth of bills. More likely, it's
about 3 years or 5 years. And then, who really owes the
money? You didn't sign a rental contract with them.
Presumably the previous owner did. It would seem to me
that their claim is against the previous owner, not you.
In other words, even if they say, pay up, once they
realize the screwed up situation, I'd bet you could
settle it for $500. Which is better? Maybe paying $500
someday, or paying $1000 for a tank, plus the cost of
laying a pad, securing it, etc maybe $1500 total today?

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 06:46:09 -0700, wrote:

If he's using it for heat and cooking and he knows he's in an area where
he's very unlikely to change fuels, then I don't see stopping gas usage as
being an issue.

It's not. There's (almost) no chance (well, it's never zero) that they'll
run a pipe way out here for an alternative fuel.

Electricity, I guess, is the other option - but at the cost of electricity
in California being something like 50 cents a kwh (top tier), that's not
going to work out mathematically (without adding a $50K solar investment
to the mix anyway).

On Friday, September 27, 2013 10:37:24 AM UTC-4, Alex Gunderson wrote:
On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 08:39:40 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:



I might have missed it. Is there some reason you

don't just keep hiring the existing company to

fill your propane? What's the big ownership

question? Are they far too expensive?



Good question.

I'm actually happy with the existing company.



The only thing that 'may' change is they may charge

a rental fee (which, over time, would, at some point,

exceed the cost of the tank) and they may charge a

higher rate for the propane.



Plus, I can no longer shop around and go to someone

else for propane (who may have a lower cost).



Given that there are 1,000 gallons, even a minor

50 cent difference in price could make a large

difference (over time) in total ownership cost.

Then it would seem that when and if another supplier
offers a price that justifies switching, that would be
the time to incur all the trouble. But you told us the
current company was the lowest cost one, no? So, why
not just keep doing what you've been doing?

On 9/26/2013 4:56 PM, Alex Gunderson wrote:
I realize this is a legal question but has anyone here had this happen.
Any advice?

1. Bought a house, as is, in 2010, which came with a 1,000 gallon propane tank attached.
2. Entered into agreement with fuel company "1" for fuel in 2010.
3. No tank rental is paid to fuel company 1 because it's not their tank
4. Recently a workman (inspecting the tank because of a new BBQ) mentioned that company 2 owns the tank
5. Company 2 was recently bought by company 1.

Nothing more has happened, but, who owns that tank?

I feel "I" own it by virtue of multiple circumstances (but I'm not a lawyer!):
a. I bought the house and everything attached to it
b. I never signed an agreement with company 2
c. Company 2 abandoned that tank long ago (IMHO)

if you don't know c, then you can't assume that. they will probably
still own it, even if they collect no rent on it. they would/could have
sold it to the then-owner for nothing, but if you have no paperwork on
that, then it didn't occur.

I suspect, if company 1 wants to assert ownership of that tank, they could say:
A. Company 2 originally owned the tank
B. Company 2 still owns that tank
C. Therefore, company 1 (who owns company 2) owns that tank.

Have you ever been in this situation?
What advice do you have for me?

TIA

On 9/27/2013 4:48 AM, Alex Gunderson wrote:
On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 22:37:58 -0700, Ashton Crusher wrote:

If they decide it's their tank tell them fine, they can have it as soon as
the pay the storage fees. Even a nominal $10 a day is going to cost them
some bucks.

It's funny you say that because my wife suggested we charge them rent!

The problem, of course, is that I need to have them deliver the propane.

I haven't done the research lately, but they were the cheapest of the
four or five companies that I can buy propane from out here.

And, as they buy each other up, their numbers are dwindling.

I think they'll pick up the tank for free though - but then I'm left
with buying a brand new tank.

Luckily, they're not too expensive, about a dollar a gallon, so, it would
cost about a thousand gallons. I will have to put in a concrete reinforced
pad and earthquake straps and I'll need to trench it since I'd move it
elsewhere - so I've been looking up all that separately.

look into burying it. i did that so i didn't have to look at it all the
time. cost a bit more though, and you have to have additional permits
and the right kind of ground to do so.

EDIT: Plus it looks like I need a set of high pressure and low pressure
regulators. One each at the tank, and one at the house.

In article ,
Alex Gunderson wrote:

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 08:13:49 -0500, Unquestionably Confused wrote:

If you stop using the gas, what are you going to do?

That's an interesting question, as I hadn't considered any other
option but propane.

I guess, if I stop using gas, my options a
- For heating: Use a wood burner instead
- For hot water: Use electricity
- For the stove: Use electricity
- For the pool: Don't heat it
Don't know about the tree situation at your place, but one of the
few places I have seen where solar seems to work better than most
alternatives is the pool heater.
--
America is at that awkward stage. It's too late
to work within the system, but too early to shoot
the *******s."-- Claire Wolfe

On 9/27/2013 7:37 AM, Alex Gunderson wrote:
On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 08:39:40 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

I might have missed it. Is there some reason you
don't just keep hiring the existing company to
fill your propane? What's the big ownership
question? Are they far too expensive?

Good question.
I'm actually happy with the existing company.

The only thing that 'may' change is they may charge
a rental fee (which, over time, would, at some point,
exceed the cost of the tank) and they may charge a
higher rate for the propane.

Plus, I can no longer shop around and go to someone
else for propane (who may have a lower cost).

Given that there are 1,000 gallons, even a minor
50 cent difference in price could make a large
difference (over time) in total ownership cost.


that frequently happens in my area, and it's frequently over $1/gallon
difference. i generally call 4 when i get a tank fill, and can save
hundreds of dollars.

On 9/27/2013 7:35 AM, Alex Gunderson wrote:
On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 05:52:20 -0700, wrote:

I doubt an abandonment claim would work too, but without knowing the state
laws on the subject, who knows. If it meets the terms of the law, I don't
think it would be hard to prove. The fact that it's been sitting there,
out in the open for X years and the company who owns it has done nothing,
is obvious. But the specifics of the law are what will count.

Understood.
They could have come at any time to pick it up.
They didn't.


they didn't have to.

On 9/27/2013 7:07 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Thanks, good attention to detail. Line up the
ducks, so he doesn't get quacked over the head
with some issue later? Then he might really
be ducked up, with a huge tank to duck around
with.

ducks and runs

.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about "behold, I come quackly!" Jesus
www.lds.org
.

On 9/27/2013 8:56 AM, wrote:
On Friday, September 27, 2013 8:41:20 AM UTC-4, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Are you unhappy with the present company?

Why discuss all the work to change tanks,

if the existing tank is in acceptable shape?



Stormin, that's what inquiring minds want to know.....
I'm confused here too. I asked why he was so concerned,
what the current issue was and he said:

"Because I want to line up my ducks.
Just in case they come to me, I don't want to say something stupid.
I just want to know where I stand, legally. "


Then later he laid out his intention to buy a new tank, pour a
new pad, etc and put it in. If it were me, I'd just continue
to use the existing tank. And if I could find the previous
owner, I'd contact them and ask who owned the tank.


i think the OP wants it in a different place. the propane company won't
want to do that for free.

On 9/27/2013 8:06 AM, Kurt Ullman wrote:
In article ,
Alex Gunderson wrote:

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 08:13:49 -0500, Unquestionably Confused wrote:

If you stop using the gas, what are you going to do?

That's an interesting question, as I hadn't considered any other
option but propane.

I guess, if I stop using gas, my options a
- For heating: Use a wood burner instead
- For hot water: Use electricity
- For the stove: Use electricity
- For the pool: Don't heat it
Don't know about the tree situation at your place, but one of the
few places I have seen where solar seems to work better than most
alternatives is the pool heater.


you probably mean solar hot water, not solar electric. you'd need a
massive array to do solar electric for an electric pool heater.

On Friday, September 27, 2013 11:06:14 AM UTC-4, Kurt Ullman wrote:
In article ,

Alex Gunderson wrote:



On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 08:13:49 -0500, Unquestionably Confused wrote:



If you stop using the gas, what are you going to do?



That's an interesting question, as I hadn't considered any other

option but propane.



I guess, if I stop using gas, my options a

- For heating: Use a wood burner instead

- For hot water: Use electricity

- For the stove: Use electricity

- For the pool: Don't heat it

Don't know about the tree situation at your place, but one of the

few places I have seen where solar seems to work better than most

alternatives is the pool heater.

--

Good grief, yes! Solar is far more cost effective than
any pool heating alternative. In CA you would think solar would be
the way to go for a pool heater. I'm actually surprised
I don't see them here in NJ. The main downside is that it
takes a fairly large array, ballpark about the size of the
pool surface area. So, you either need roof area for that,
are OK with how it looks, or need to ground mount it. But
compared to say nat gas, it's just about free to run. And
those gas heaters are 200 - 400K btus, a real disaster.

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 14:33:41 +0000 (UTC), Alex Gunderson
wrote in Re Who
actually owns this 1,000 gallon propane tank?:

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 08:41:20 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Are you unhappy with the present company?
Nope.

Why discuss all the work to change tanks,
if the existing tank is in acceptable shape?

Only for economy.

The propane company charges one rate for people who
rent the tank (in addition to the monthly rental fee).

But, they charge a lower rate for those who own
their tanks (with the benefit of no rental fee).

Correct. You would do well to put in your own tank.
--
Web based forums are like subscribing to 10 different newspapers
and having to visit 10 different news stands to pickup each one.
Email list-server groups and USENET are like having all of those
newspapers delivered to your door every morning.

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 09:03:04 -0400, Kurt Ullman
wrote:

In article ,
Alex Gunderson wrote:


So, now I'm making plans for buying a new tank, and putting it in
myself.

Why? The propane company seems to be tickled pink to fill it. Since
they bought the other company, it is most likely theirs anyway. I don't
see any reason to spend the money to bring the new one up to code under
the circumstances and I certainly don't see any need to take ownership
of the tank (with attendant small but still not trivial legal risks that
attach).



It looks like I'll need the following (based on new regulations
of distance from the house and earthquake resistance which had
grandfathered the original tank but don't apply to new):
* new 1,000 gallon propane tank *
* reinforced concrete pad with tie-down eyehooks or lag bolts *
* trench must be 12" deep minimum & 18" if driven over *
* underground yellow flexible conduit (25' minimum distance) *
* two galvanized steel risers at the tank *
* high pressure regulator at the tank for the house *
* low pressure regulator at the tank for the pool & BBQ *
* low pressure regulator at the house *
I wouldn't WANT to own a 1000 gallon fuel tank - propane, gasoline,
or deisel, strictly from the liability perspective. They own it, they
are responsible for it, and if anything goes wrong THEY replace it.

It's not like a water heater, or furnace that you rent and pay for 5
times over in it's normal lifespan - I would always own my furnace,
water heater, and water softener (as well as my car)

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 09:03:04 -0400, Kurt Ullman wrote:

Why? The propane company seems to be tickled pink to fill it. Since
they bought the other company, it is most likely theirs anyway.

I'm leaning toward the fact that whomever can prove it's theirs
probably owns it, and, I can't prove it's mine.

I did call the propane company and they told me that they changed
their rules, which makes a difference.

They now say they charge the same amount per gallon whether or
not the owner owns the tank, so that knocks out one variable.

They also said they lowered the rental fees, which are $95/year
for 500 gallon tanks and $120/year for 1,000 gallon tanks; so that
changes the amortization schedule for just the tank to something
like 10 years for break even.

Generally I use anything around 5 years as a no brainer, but,
anything between 5 and 15 years takes a little thought. Come to
think of it, that would be an interesting topic in and of itself,
so, I'll bring that to a different thread.

On Friday, September 27, 2013 2:09:02 PM UTC-4, Alex Gunderson wrote:
On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 09:03:04 -0400, Kurt Ullman wrote:



Why? The propane company seems to be tickled pink to fill it. Since

they bought the other company, it is most likely theirs anyway.




I'm leaning toward the fact that whomever can prove it's theirs

probably owns it, and, I can't prove it's mine.



So, who cares who owns it? As long as they aren't charging
you for it, the current company is the lowest cost propane
supplier, and they keep filling it, like others here I don't
see the logic in shelling out $1000+ for a new tank when you have a
free one.






I did call the propane company and they told me that they changed

their rules, which makes a difference.



They now say they charge the same amount per gallon whether or

not the owner owns the tank, so that knocks out one variable.



They also said they lowered the rental fees, which are $95/year

for 500 gallon tanks and $120/year for 1,000 gallon tanks; so that

changes the amortization schedule for just the tank to something

like 10 years for break even.



Generally I use anything around 5 years as a no brainer, but,

anything between 5 and 15 years takes a little thought. Come to

think of it, that would be an interesting topic in and of itself,

so, I'll bring that to a different thread.

Did you factor in the cost of a new concrete pad and the various
other work that needs to be done? Who's going to do it and how
much? Who hooks up the necessary piping and how much?
Who takes away the old tank and how much? You're assuming
the company owns it, so I guess they probably would take it
away, but you aren't really sure. It could be yours
for all you know. Cost of permits, if any?

In article ,
Alex Gunderson wrote:

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 09:03:04 -0400, Kurt Ullman wrote:

Why? The propane company seems to be tickled pink to fill it. Since
they bought the other company, it is most likely theirs anyway.

I'm leaning toward the fact that whomever can prove it's theirs
probably owns it, and, I can't prove it's mine.
Can the company prove it is their"s. Actually I'd contact the
company that made it and see if they can tell you who bought it. I would
think they would have to be able to do that for recalls, etc.,
especially for something like a propane tank. Be sorta funny if it was
third party altogether.


Generally I use anything around 5 years as a no brainer, but,
anything between 5 and 15 years takes a little thought. Come to
think of it, that would be an interesting topic in and of itself,
so, I'll bring that to a different thread.

The first thing would be try and figure out who owns it.
--
America is at that awkward stage. It's too late
to work within the system, but too early to shoot
the *******s."-- Claire Wolfe

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 05:56:53 -0700, wrote:

If it were me, I'd just continue to use the existing
tank. And if I could find the previous owner, I'd contact them and ask
who owned the tank.

Well, I've changed my mind based on the information in this thread.
But I'm still lining up my ducks!

Basically, I realized from what was said here, that I don't
actually own the existing tank. So it's probably theirs (if they
can prove it - which they probably can).

So now I'm stuck paying $120/year, which, if it costs $1000 to put
in a new 1000-gallon tank, has a break-even point of about 10 years,
which seems worth it (since there's the additional savings of being
able to switch suppliers and saving an addition 25 to 50 cents
per gallon, which, on 1,000 gallons, could be as much as a few
hundred bucks per fill).

However, I just found out that a new 500 gallon tank, from the
same company that I'm using now, is actually around $1,800 &
a new 1,000 gallon tank is double that (they said the cost is
about $3.60/gallon).

So, that changes the economics but the equations are the same.

SAVINGS:
Yearly rental $120/year
Price-per-gallon savings (varies, but can be as high as $1)
Number of gallons per year (varies, but roughly 1,500 to 2,000)

COST:
$3,600 for a 1,000 gallon tank (dunno if regulator is included)
$400 for plumbing, pad, and trenching (I'm roughing costs out)

BREAK EVEN:
Assuming I can save, on average, 75 cents per gallon on about
1,500 gallons, that's a savings of $1,245 per year if I own
the tank.

Given the cost of ownership is $4,000, it would take only 3
years to make my money back - so that's a no brainer (since
it's less than 5 years) to own the tank myself.

If I assume a savings of only 50 cents per gallon, that brings
the break-even point to 4-1/2 years, which is still a no
brainer (since it's still less than 5 years).

So, if the company starts charging me rent for the tank,
and, at the same time, limits me to only them for fuel,
it seems to be a no brainer (by my logic anyway) to simply
buy the tank (maybe they will sell me that exact tank so
that I don't have to put a new pad in to meet the new rules).

Is my logic sound?

On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 23:35:42 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

You can be pretty sure that you don't own it. From the scenario you
describe, probably No 1 owns it since they bought #2.

I have come to this realization that you are probably correct.
I don't own the tank.
They probably own it.

Your opinion does not matter.
I agree.

unless you have a bill of sale
I do not.

you did not buy it.
I now agree.

If a propane company does not own the tank they are not
allowed to fill it.

Actually, they fill their tanks and your tanks but they
won't fill a tanks that they know to be owned by a third
party.

"Alex Gunderson" wrote in message

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 07:37:07 -0400, dadiOH wrote:

if one changes gas provider, the previous company has
30 days to come get their tank; if they don't, then it
is bye-bye tank for them.

Aha! That's the abandonment clause.

That's the one thing I'm unsure of, out here, for
California.

I found THIS legal site, but it doesn't seem to cover
that topic.

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/di...file=4451-4465

If it were me, I'd consider the tank mine. Consider...

1. Previous owner bought gas from Company A. Tank was either the previous
owner's or rented from Company A (probable).

2. House was sold, you start buying LPG from Company B. Company A *knows*
they are no longer delivering gas, should have picked up tank if it was
theirs. They did not so either it was not theirs or they abandoned it. In
either case, I would now consider it mine; if someone asked to see a bill of
sale, I'd tell them it is none of their business and/or came with the house.

Paint it a pretty color, stencil your name on it and enjoy. Need I mention
that when you paint it you shouldn't sand or do anything else that could
cause sparks?


--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 01:41:04 +0000 (UTC), Alex Gunderson
wrote:

On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 20:23:03 -0400, krw wrote:

You're in possession of stolen property.

I understand your point.
But, what about "abandoned" property?

It's not.

b. I never signed an agreement with company 2
Doesn't matter.

I guess that's because you're saying company 2 still
owns the tank so it doesn't matter that they left it
on my property, connected to the house, for the past
few years?

IMO, no.

Maybe they'll never figure it out.

Or, maybe they'll figure it's not worth losing a customer
over a $1000 tank?

If they do figure it out, they'll likely only start charging you rent
from that day. I wouldn't expect them to just give you the tank,
though.

On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 22:37:58 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 01:41:04 +0000 (UTC), Alex Gunderson
wrote:

On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 20:23:03 -0400, krw wrote:

You're in possession of stolen property.

I understand your point.
But, what about "abandoned" property?


b. I never signed an agreement with company 2
Doesn't matter.

I guess that's because you're saying company 2 still
owns the tank so it doesn't matter that they left it
on my property, connected to the house, for the past
few years?

Maybe they'll never figure it out.

Or, maybe they'll figure it's not worth losing a customer
over a $1000 tank?

If they decide it's their tank tell them fine, they can have it as
soon as the pay the storage fees. Even a nominal $10 a day is going
to cost them some bucks.

That sounds like fun but it's not going to work. It's more likely to
get someone ****ed off.

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 07:59:46 -0700, chaniarts wrote:

look into burying it. i did that so i didn't have to look at it all the
time. cost a bit more though, and you have to have additional permits and
the right kind of ground to do so.

Just called the planning department.

In California, there is a $250 price for tank permits.
But, they do NOT take down the serial number.

The permit guy says he knows of no registration (like they have
in North Carolina) which holds ownership of a tank.

So, I need to look at the abandoned-property laws to find out
whether the tank can be considered abandoned after five years.

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 07:59:46 -0700, chaniarts wrote:

look into burying it. i did that so i didn't have to look at it all the
time. cost a bit more though, and you have to have additional permits and
the right kind of ground to do so.

When it comes time to do that, I will.

Right now, they told me a replacement tank (brand new) is $3.60/gallon.

I'm pretty sure that's the high end but that would make the tank and the
fuel just about the same price.

Googling for "How Much Does a 1000 Gallon Propane Tank Cost" finds lots
of hits, most of which are around $1200 to $1500 (which is $1.20/gallon
to about $1.50/gallon) which is less than the cost of the fuel which
goes *inside* the tank.

http://www.thriftypropane.com/purchasetank.aspx
http://www.ask.com/question/how-much...pane-tank-cost
http://www.kudzu.com/article/How-muc...k-cost-id10970
http://nepacrossroads.com/about16761.html

"Alex Gunderson" wrote in message


But, at this point, I don't think it's reasonable to
think I'll invest in switching over all that equipment to
alternative fuels.

Out of curiosity, what are you paying for gas?

I used Amerigas for a number of years...until I noticed (wife pays the
bills) that they were charging $5.25/gal. That was 4-5 years ago. I
switched to a smaller company, they charged $3.25. They were bought out by
Amerigas so I switched to Ferrell 2-3 years ago; they started out at about
$3.25 are now $5.00+.

IME, all the gas companies low ball you initially, rapidly bump it up
ridiculously.


--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net