On Friday, 27 September 2013 10:34:13 UTC-4, Alex Gunderson wrote:
On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 05:52:20 -0700, wrote:

Apparently they questioned him as to who owned the tank and he filled out
an affidavit stating that he owned it.


Confirmed.

If anything ever goes wrong and the neighbors sue your delivery company (which they will, since it's richer than you) that affidavit will be central to downloading the liability to you. Which is kinda fair, really. I guess you could find yourself facing some kind of false-document charge, but only if some third party came forth with a claim to owning it, which is real unlikely after it blows up.

I presume your insurer has acknowledged its presence. They could forget you mentioned it to them, if it suited them.

I'm increasingly thinking that since (a) there is no branding of any kind on the tank and (b) whatever company the prior owner used never came to demand it back when he quit buying from them, that it actually is a privately owned tank, and that you really did take ownership of it with the house.

Chip C
Toronto

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 10:07:26 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Thanks, good attention to detail.

Well, bear in mind that the cost for the tank is less than
the cost to fill the tank just once, so, it's not so odd
that I'm trying to scope out my options.

I'm pretty convinced, by now, that the tank was not bought
by me - but - I'm not sure whether the original owner has
forfeited his rights to the tank, by sheer length of
abandonment laws.

I'm kind of stumped at this point, because I called the
county planning office who said they knew of no registration
of propane tank serial numbers with them.

So, I'm actually back to the original question of who owns
the tank - only the details have changed.

Either I own the tank because the original owner abandoned it;
or, the original owner owns the tank because they originally
owned that tank.

I guess I should move that question to a legal group?

"Alex Gunderson" wrote in message

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 00:24:08 -0500, dpb wrote:

Clearly you own the property in question; whether the
tank was the previous occupant's to transfer is in doubt

After googling and googling and googling, I've come to the
belated realization that this is a relatively common
situation.

I couldn't find any California statutes, so all I have is
anecdotal forum and usenet situations, all of which have
their myriad details, but it seems like the tank belongs
to whomever can prove they own it.

I went back to my title papers, and there is just no
mention of the tank. Since the serial number is
presumably unique, I am slowly realizing it's probably
their tank, and not mine, as I have thought all this time.

I will call the title insurance company today, to see if
they'll compensate me for my $2,000 loss - but - since
it's not actually mentioned in the paperwork, I doubt
it's something they deal with.

So, now I'm making plans for buying a new tank, and
putting it in myself.

You would be money ahead - way ahead - renting one from your current gas
company. Depending upon how much you use, they might well charge you no
rent; especially if you tell them they can use/have the tank that came with
the house.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

"Alex Gunderson" wrote in message

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 08:39:40 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

I might have missed it. Is there some reason you
don't just keep hiring the existing company to
fill your propane? What's the big ownership
question? Are they far too expensive?

Good question.
I'm actually happy with the existing company.

The only thing that 'may' change is they may charge
a rental fee (which, over time, would, at some point,
exceed the cost of the tank) and they may charge a
higher rate for the propane.

Plus, I can no longer shop around and go to someone
else for propane (who may have a lower cost).

Yes you can. Go with a new company and they will either continue filling
the tank you have or rent you another; in the latter case the owner (not
you) of the current tank is supposed to come and het their tank. If they
don't you are back in ther situation tanksise that you are now but ther is
nothing stopping you from switching companies.

And if anyone ever has the temerity to try to charge you past rent for the
existing tank, tell them to take a hike.
--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On Friday, September 27, 2013 3:24:01 PM UTC-4, Alex Gunderson wrote:
On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 10:07:26 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:



Thanks, good attention to detail.



Well, bear in mind that the cost for the tank is less than

the cost to fill the tank just once, so, it's not so odd

that I'm trying to scope out my options.



I'm pretty convinced, by now, that the tank was not bought

by me - but - I'm not sure whether the original owner has

forfeited his rights to the tank, by sheer length of

abandonment laws.



I'm kind of stumped at this point, because I called the

county planning office who said they knew of no registration

of propane tank serial numbers with them.



So, I'm actually back to the original question of who owns

the tank - only the details have changed.



Either I own the tank because the original owner abandoned it;

or, the original owner owns the tank because they originally

owned that tank.



I guess I should move that question to a legal group?


Let's recap. You bought the property with a propane tank
attached to it. The sales contract says nothing about who
owns the tank. You believed at the time that you bought
it with the house. You called up the low cost propane
supplier and prior to starting filling service, they came out, inspected the tank, and asked you who owned it. You told
them you did and signed an affidavit to that effect. That
is what you believed at the time.

Now let's pause for a moment. The company actually inspected
the tank prior to filling it the first time. They didn't say
it was another company's tank. Also, the tank apparently has
no company name on it, which some other folks here I believe
have said is unusual for a leased tank. I would think so too.

A few years go by. Some tech from the gas company one day
tells you that he thinks it's owned by company X, which
apparently was the supplier to the previous owner? That
company has now been bought by your current supplier.
So, if the tank was company X's, it's now the property of
your current supplier. The big assumption here is that
the tech is right. He could just be talking out his ass.
And how does
he now know it belonged to company X, when previously the
gas company inspected it, asked who owned it, and didn't have
a problem when you said you did? Was this tech there some
time after the company was bought out? If so, then maybe he
referenced a database of serial #'s that now includes company X's
tanks, so now it's listed as that company's tank.

But at the end of the day, why do you care? You have a free
tank and you've done nothing wrong. If some day your company
claims they own the tank, so what? Your position is that
you believed it was the property of the owner at the time
of sale. That is the truth. If they have a claim for back
rental fees, as I see it, it's against the FORMER OWNER.
He presumably signed the lease agreement for the tank, not
you. You tell the gas company that and to go after him.
Even if they go after you, so what? There is a statute of
limitations for bringing such a claim. I just checked and
for CA for a debt claim, it's 4 years. So, the most they
could get is $120 a year times four years, $480. Less if
the lease rates were lower in those years.

So, BFD, they may have a claim against the
former owner for $480. If they persist in trying to collect
from you, offer them $300 to BUY the tank at that point.
Or let them take you to court over $480. I doubt they
would do it, and IMO, it's unlikely they would win. Even
if they take the previous owner to court, who IMO, is
more likely responsible, I don't think they would collect
more than $100 or so. Why? Because they could have come
at any time to pick up the tank after he stopped paying
for it. They didn't do that. So maybe a court would
give them 6 months worth of rental fees. And
the previous owner is likely going to claim he called them up
to terminate service, told them the house was sold, etc
and he's probably got an excellent case that it's THEIR
screw up, not his. The former owner would have to have
been pretty dumb to not tell them he's done with their
service, because you would be running up a bill in his
name.

In short, I think you're hell bent on spending $1500 or
more to buy a new tank, when you have no real problem at
this point. And at most, you have a POTENTIAL, small
problem in the future. What's better? Starting a whole
mess and paying $1500 - $2000 for a new tank today or
taking the chance that someday you might have to pay
$500? More likely if they haven't caught it or done
anything by now, you'll pay zero.

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 06:09:28 -0700, wrote:

The key question here is a claim against who? They are talking about the
seller not stating who owns the tank, disclosing that it is not theirs,
etc at the time of sale. In that case, what they are saying is that you
may have a claim against the SELLER.

I called the title company, who said that they will get back to me to
confirm, but, offhand, they said they don't cover "personal property".

They said they "think" the propane tank (just like a satellite dish)
is actually "personal property".

They suggested I talk to my real estate agent whom I did call.

My real estate agent didn't know (she suggested I look on the net) but
she said she'd see if she could find out.

It could be that personal property is considered abandoned at some
time period after the sale; or, it could be that personal property
lasts forever (like the car example someone gave earlier).

I don't know but it seems the question boils down to:

Given the propane company can probably prove they originally
owned the tank, and that they originally entered into an agreement
with the prior seller, who didn't disclose anything (either way)
about the tank (or, for that matter, the satellite dishes on the
roof) ... who owns that tank today?

Either *they* own it (because they originally owned it); or,
I own it (by virtue of the fact they abandoned it).

I still don't know the answer to that key question ...

On Friday, September 27, 2013 2:49:57 PM UTC-4, Alex Gunderson wrote:
On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 23:35:42 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:



You can be pretty sure that you don't own it.

Why exactly is that? All he has is a tech from the
current gas company telling him that he thinks it is owned
by company X, which is now part of the current gas
company.




From the scenario you

describe, probably No 1 owns it since they bought #2.



I have come to this realization that you are probably correct.

I don't own the tank.

They probably own it.



Your opinion does not matter.

I agree.



unless you have a bill of sale

I do not.



you did not buy it.

I now agree.



This is just pure nonsense. Just because you don't have
a bill of sale doesn't mean you don't own it. I don't have
a bill of sale for most of the stuff in my house. Does
that mean I don't own it? Does the current gas company
have the bill of sale or proof that THEY own it? All
you have are the flapping gums of one tech.

The simple fact is at this point you don't know who owns
it. And again, you're getting gas, no one is saying they
want the tank back, no one is charging you for it. WTF is
the problem?





If a propane company does not own the tank they are not

allowed to fill it.



Actually, they fill their tanks and your tanks but they

won't fill a tanks that they know to be owned by a third

party.

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 07:57:42 -0700, chaniarts wrote:

if you have no paperwork on that, then
it didn't occur.

I do agree I do NOT have a bill of sale.

So, at this point, I believe that the serial number
probably matches that of the serial number of the
tank that was originally rented to the previous owner.

So, that serial number would certainly prove that the
original tank was originally owned by the original company
which is now probably owned by my propane company who
bought the original propane company & presumably their
assets.

So the key question is how long can such property be left
at someone's house in California before it can be considered
abandoned (e.g., propane tanks, satellite dishes, etc.).

My title company said it was likely personal property and
therefore not covered by them (they'll get back to me).

The county planning office said they have a record of permits
but they do NOT write down serial numbers on those permits.

My real estate agent said she has never run into this
question before and suggested I ask on the Internet.

The key question is who owns the tank after it has been
left there for about five years in the state of California
and not "claimed" nor removed by the original company?

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 20:25:02 +0000 (UTC), Alex Gunderson
wrote in Re Who
actually owns this 1,000 gallon propane tank?:

I called the title company, who said that they will get back to me to
confirm, but, offhand, they said they don't cover "personal property".

They said they "think" the propane tank (just like a satellite dish)
is actually "personal property".

Generally, personal property that is "substantially affixed" to real
property, becomes real property. For example, consider a large
bathroom mirror that is hung with wires on the back of the mirror
frame to hooks on the wall. That mirror is personal property.

But take that mirror and screw it onto the wall via bolts going
through the frame and into the studs and it becomes real property.

Is a large outside steel tank connected by underground pipe to a
heating unit (which is certainly real property) also real property? I
would say yes; but that's what they have juries for: to decide such
things.
--
Web based forums are like subscribing to 10 different newspapers
and having to visit 10 different news stands to pickup each one.
Email list-server groups and USENET are like having all of those
newspapers delivered to your door every morning.

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 11:06:14 -0400, Kurt Ullman wrote:

one of the few places I have seen where solar seems to
work better than most alternatives is the pool heater.

I have a solar pool heater. It's great!
I also have a propane fueled pool heater (I use it for the spa).
It works FAST and it works at night!

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 15:21:39 -0400, dadiOH wrote:

Out of curiosity, what are you paying for gas?

I'm in a propane-buyers group cooperative.

Here are the prices, each month, for the past year:
http://www.southskyline.org/images/S...09-08_zoom.gif

How does that compare with your cooperative?

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 15:26:02 -0400, dadiOH wrote:

Depending upon how much you use, they might well charge you no
rent; especially if you tell them they can use/have the tank that came
with the house.

I understand that the tank costs less new than the gas that is
inside that tank, so, it makes sense they'd rather have my
business than the tank.

But, that still doesn't answer the question of who actually
owns the tank.

I could see the argument going either way depending on California
law (whatever it is for this kind of property).

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 13:42:32 -0400, clare wrote:

I wouldn't WANT to own a 1000 gallon fuel tank - propane, gasoline,
or deisel, strictly from the liability perspective. They own it, they are
responsible for it, and if anything goes wrong THEY replace it.

For some strange reason, from a home-repair perspective, owning
a big round cylinder that will outlast me plus the next two owners
of my residence (whomever they may be) just isn't a big worry for me.

I'm more worried about things that actually have moving parts.

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 11:28:58 -0700, wrote:

So, who cares who owns it? As long as they aren't charging you for it,
the current company is the lowest cost propane supplier, and they keep
filling it, like others here I don't see the logic in shelling out $1000+
for a new tank when you have a free one.

I think I didn't make it clear that I was just lining up my ducks.

I agree with you, it matters not who owns it as long as they don't
charge me for them owning it.

I asked the question only because I only recently found out that they
say they own it - and I expect them to say that I need to pay rent
at some point in the future.

Or, I might want to go to a different supplier, and, if so, I can no
longer file an affidavit that implies that I own it.

At either of those points, it matters greatly who owns it.
That's why I care now.
Before one of those two things happens.

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 14:35:17 -0400, Kurt Ullman wrote:

The first thing would be try and figure out who owns it.



That's exactly why I asked the question!

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 14:35:17 -0400, Kurt Ullman wrote:

Can the company prove it is theirs.

If they lay claim to the tank, that's the very first question I will
ask them.

In fact, it was the very first question they asked me almost 5 years
ago, when I asked them to fill the tank for the first time.

Since I didn't have a bill of sale, I signed an affidavit saying I
believed the tank was mine.

Actually I'd contact the company that made it and see if they can
tell you who bought it.

I'm at work right now, but that's an EXCELLENT idea.
I will call them tomorrow to figure out if they can tell me that!

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 13:20:34 -0700, wrote:

Let's recap. You bought the property with a propane tank attached to it.
The sales contract says nothing about who owns the tank. You believed at
the time that you bought it with the house. You called up the low cost
propane supplier and prior to starting filling service, they came out,
inspected the tank, and asked you who owned it. You told them you did and
signed an affidavit to that effect. That is what you believed at the
time.

Wow. You're good!

Now let's pause for a moment. The company actually inspected the tank
prior to filling it the first time. They didn't say it was another
company's tank. Also, the tank apparently has no company name on it,
which some other folks here I believe have said is unusual for a leased
tank. I would think so too.

Yup. Exactly.

A few years go by. Some tech from the gas company one day tells you that
he thinks it's owned by company X, which apparently was the supplier to
the previous owner? That company has now been bought by your current
supplier.

Yup. AFAIK.

So, if the tank was company X's, it's now the property of your current
supplier. The big assumption here is that the tech is right. He could
just be talking out his ass.

When he said it, I questioned it, saying I owned the tank.
He said the serial numbers matched as did the address, but that he'd check.
I haven't heard back from him (but that was only yesterday).

And how does he now know it belonged to company X, when previously the gas
company inspected it, asked who owned it, and didn't have a problem when
you said you did?

The implication was that it's the same address and serial number of a tank
that is in the database of the company that owned the tank originally.

Presumably the first company merged databases with the second company?
If it's all true, then it would be rather easy (since the address and
serial numbers would match.)

But at the end of the day, why do you care?

Good question. I don't care IF. If they don't try any funny stuff, it
won't matter to me. But, what if they try to say I can't go to a 2nd
supplier for propane? What if they decide to charge me forward rent?
Or back rent? (I doubt they'd do that though).

If some day your company claims they own the tank, so what?

Once they claim ownership, then when I go to a second company for propane,
I can't legally sign an affidavit stating I believe I own the tank.

So, it matters greatly who owns that tank at this moment in time!

If they have a claim for back rental fees, as I see it, it's against
the FORMER OWNER. He presumably signed the lease agreement

I would agree with that (but I'm not a lawyer); it sounds reasonable.

Even if they go after you, so what? There is a statute of limitations for
bringing such a claim. I just checked and for CA for a debt claim, it's 4
years. So, the most they could get is $120 a year times four years, $480.

I just checked and I've had that tank for only 4.5 years. If they decide
to charge back rent (which I doubt they would), it looks like I'm in the
free period now at least!

they could have come at any time to pick up the tank after he stopped
paying for it. They didn't do that.

This is true. All they needed to do was disconnect the pipes with a wrench
and bring a truck to haul it away. They might have to pay me for the
fuel inside, but, other than that, they "could" have physically taken it.
(I'm not sure if there are legal rules against trespassing to take back
your property though.)

its probably best to keep the tank at least half full, in case some day OP cant get it filled.
Then keep a low profile and hope its forgotten about. repainting the tank is probably a good idea, to fix rust and cover possible ownership questions.

when OP is ready to sell home expect lots of unpleasant questions.....

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 08:14:50 -0700, chaniarts wrote:

i think the OP wants it in a different place. the propane company won't
want to do that for free.

If it comes down to a new tank, we'd have to follow current regulations,
and the current tank location wouldn't meet the new regulations for distance
from structures.

But, I shouldn't have brought that up because the "real" question is
who owns the tank at this very moment.

I will try to contact the manufacturer of the tank when I get home
to ask them if they can trace the serial number to an original owner.

"Alex Gunderson" wrote in message

Googling for "How Much Does a 1000 Gallon Propane Tank
Cost" finds lots of hits, most of which are around $1200
to $1500 (which is $1.20/gallon to about $1.50/gallon)
which is less than the cost of the fuel which goes
*inside* the tank.

I keep meaning to ask, are you sure this is a 1000 gallon tank? That would
be HUGE for a residence. Generally, they are 100-120 gallons; physically,
maybe 6' long x 24-30" in diameter.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 07:50:57 -0700, wrote:

It would seem to me that their claim
is against the previous owner, not you.

If I were the current propane company, I would not go after
back rent simply because nobody ever billed *me* for rent
and the original company certainly knew the address (if not
my name).

So, the original company "could" have billed me for the rent
all along - and they certainly did not.

The original company could have physically taken the tank
(but they'd have to trespass to do so) at any time, as it's
not bolted down.

The key problem now is that, if the tank truly is owned by
the propane company, then I can't legally switch suppliers
at any future point in time, simply because I can't sign
the affidavit that says I own the tank.

So, it still matters who owns the tank. It just doesn't
matter until/unless I want to switch suppliers or the
propane company wants to charge me future rent.

I guess it also matters if I sell the house; but I have no
plans for doing that.

"Alex Gunderson" wrote in message

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 15:21:39 -0400, dadiOH wrote:

Out of curiosity, what are you paying for gas?

I'm in a propane-buyers group cooperative.

Here are the prices, each month, for the past year:
http://www.southskyline.org/images/S...09-08_zoom.gif

How does that compare with your cooperative?

No cooperative. Prices here are $5.00+/gallon. We are being screwed.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 12:22:43 -0700, Chip C wrote:

that affidavit will be central to downloading the liability to you.

I don't disagree with that, but, while *anything* can happen, the
real likelihood of propane tanks suddenly exploding for no apparent
reason is not one danger that I'm currently worried about.

These things are built like brick outhouses. They are simple cylinders.
Steel. Painted. Solid. No moving parts (well, I don't know what's in
the regulator). It meets building codes of the time it was built.

I do agree bad things "can" happen; but the chance of the thing
suddenly and inexplicably exploding is about as likely as me winning
the lottery - in which case, I'll have enough money to pay for the
increased liability.

I presume your insurer has acknowledged its presence.

Well. They certainly visited the property at the time that I bought
the house. And, they'd have to be blind not to see the huge thing.
Plus EVERYONE out here has a propane tank, so, they'd also have to
be fools to know know about it. So, AFAIK, they know all about it.

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 13:29:44 -0700, wrote:

The simple fact is at this point you don't know who owns it. And again,
you're getting gas, no one is saying they want the tank back, no one is
charging you for it. WTF is the problem?

I don't disagree with you as I "may" own it even if the gas company
thinks they own it. They probably know the law much better than I do,
which may be a reason why they've never come to get it.

The ownership only matters if I want to switch suppliers (in which
case I have to fill out another affidavit saying I own it) or if
the current company asks me for rent.

At that immediate point, it matters greatly who owns that tank!

Note: When I get home, I can see who the company is that made it and
I can call them to see if they know who BOUGHT the tank originally;
then I can work down the chain of ownership.

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 08:14:40 -0700, chaniarts wrote:

that frequently happens in my area, and it's frequently over $1/gallon
difference. i generally call 4 when i get a tank fill, and can save
hundreds of dollars.

This table of the prices charged in my area goes back to 1999:
http://www.southskyline.org/spug.html

The charges between suppliers can vary by as much as 50 cents or more,
which, for a 1,000 gallon fillup, isn't chump change.

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 07:53:44 -0700, wrote:

why not just keep doing what you've been doing?

Exactly what I *am* doing.

Until/unless there is a reason to change.

However, *if* the company approaches me, I want to have my ducks lined
up, since it takes TIME to figure out the correct arguments based on
the data.

For example, when I get home, I will act on the tip to contact the
manufacturer of the tank to see who *they* sold the original tank to.

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 15:38:56 -0400, dadiOH wrote:

Go with a new company and they will either continue filling
the tank you have

I can't faithfully do that if I believe the tank to be owned
by someone else.

Out here, they will NOT fill a third party tank.

They will only fill it if you prove it's yours, either by
a bill of sale or by an affidavit.

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 15:12:20 -0400, dadiOH wrote:

2. House was sold, you start buying LPG from Company B. Company A *knows*
they are no longer delivering gas, should have picked up tank if it was
theirs. They did not so either it was not theirs or they abandoned it.
In either case, I would now consider it mine

This makes a lot of sense!

It's not like the company A didn't know where to find the tank.

And, since it's needed for heating & cooking & hot water, company A
must have known *someone* was filling it up over all these years.

I'm *assuming* that there is no legal way for them to come and
get it (without my permission); but even then, they could have
simply sent me a letter *asking* for permission to come and take
their tank. Right?

They never did that. I've had no contact with them whatsoever.

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 16:26:44 -0500, CRNG wrote:

Is a large outside steel tank connected by underground pipe to a heating
unit (which is certainly real property) also real property? I would say
yes; but that's what they have juries for: to decide such things.

I understand.

I do not know if it's real or personal property. Yet.

The title company sent me a copy of the "grant deed" by email.

It's only 2 pages, and mentions the property lines and the
parcel number, and that's about it.

On 9/27/2013 5:48 PM, dadiOH wrote:
"Alex Gunderson" wrote in message

Googling for "How Much Does a 1000 Gallon Propane Tank
Cost" finds lots of hits, most of which are around $1200
to $1500 (which is $1.20/gallon to about $1.50/gallon)
which is less than the cost of the fuel which goes
*inside* the tank.

I keep meaning to ask, are you sure this is a 1000 gallon tank? That would
be HUGE for a residence. Generally, they are 100-120 gallons; physically,
maybe 6' long x 24-30" in diameter.


When I was a kid back on the mountaintop farm, we had a 500gal propane
tank. I remember thinking how cool (no pun) it was when the propane
delivery truck driver purged the fill hose producing a big white cloud.
Of course now I know it would have made quite a big boom if there had
been any ignition source around it. How did I ever survive childhood? o_O

TDD

On Friday, September 27, 2013 6:44:49 PM UTC-4, Alex Gunderson wrote:
On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 13:20:34 -0700, wrote:



Let's recap. You bought the property with a propane tank attached to it.

The sales contract says nothing about who owns the tank. You believed at

the time that you bought it with the house. You called up the low cost

propane supplier and prior to starting filling service, they came out,

inspected the tank, and asked you who owned it. You told them you did and

signed an affidavit to that effect. That is what you believed at the

time.



Wow. You're good!



Now let's pause for a moment. The company actually inspected the tank

prior to filling it the first time. They didn't say it was another

company's tank. Also, the tank apparently has no company name on it,

which some other folks here I believe have said is unusual for a leased

tank. I would think so too.



Yup. Exactly.



A few years go by. Some tech from the gas company one day tells you that

he thinks it's owned by company X, which apparently was the supplier to

the previous owner? That company has now been bought by your current

supplier.



Yup. AFAIK.



So, if the tank was company X's, it's now the property of your current

supplier. The big assumption here is that the tech is right. He could

just be talking out his ass.



When he said it, I questioned it, saying I owned the tank.

He said the serial numbers matched as did the address, but that he'd check.

I haven't heard back from him (but that was only yesterday).



And how does he now know it belonged to company X, when previously the gas

company inspected it, asked who owned it, and didn't have a problem when

you said you did?



The implication was that it's the same address and serial number of a tank

that is in the database of the company that owned the tank originally.


That's an important point that hasn't been made clear until now.
You told us that a tech from your gas company, while connecting
a new grill or something told you that it was Company X's tank.
You didn't tell us he matched the serial number and address to a
DATABASE. And since he works for the company that bought Company X,
and looked it up in their database, then it's very likely that
he's correct. The way you originally stated it, there was no
indication what his opinion was based on.







Presumably the first company merged databases with the second company?

If it's all true, then it would be rather easy (since the address and

serial numbers would match.)


Since the tech was just there yesterday and the company was
bought some time ago, that's apparently what happened.





But at the end of the day, why do you care?



Good question. I don't care IF. If they don't try any funny stuff, it

won't matter to me. But, what if they try to say I can't go to a 2nd

supplier for propane? What if they decide to charge me forward rent?

Or back rent? (I doubt they'd do that though).



I doubt they would do that either. A possible defense
is the abandoned property defense. You could check out the
laws on that, but I'll bet it gets complicated, especially
in the Peoples Republic of CA. They like to protect the
rights of urchants and hippies, so I wouldn't be surprised
that they have all kind of rules and procedures about what
you must do. And if
left abandoned, it might become property of the state, not
you. Maybe Jerry Brown owns it now.



If some day your company claims they own the tank, so what?



Once they claim ownership, then when I go to a second company for propane,

I can't legally sign an affidavit stating I believe I own the tank.



So, it matters greatly who owns that tank at this moment in time!


Yes, I agree it would matter if that time ever comes.
But a few hours ago, it appeared you were ready
to go shell out $2000 for a new tank now.

Since the tech who told you about the ownership was there
yesterday, I'd say if you don't hear from them in a couple
months, it's unlikely anything is going to happen.






If they have a claim for back rental fees, as I see it, it's against

the FORMER OWNER. He presumably signed the lease agreement



I would agree with that (but I'm not a lawyer); it sounds reasonable.



Even if they go after you, so what? There is a statute of limitations for

bringing such a claim. I just checked and for CA for a debt claim, it's 4

years. So, the most they could get is $120 a year times four years, $480.



I just checked and I've had that tank for only 4.5 years. If they decide

to charge back rent (which I doubt they would), it looks like I'm in the

free period now at least!


It's the first 1/2 year which has now rolled past the limit.
But again, since their contract was with the previous
owner, I don't see them having a legitimate claim for anything
against you. If they come after you and claim the tank
is theirs and if you figure out you don't have a strong
abandoned property defense, then offer them $200 or $300,
negotiate to buy the tank, if you want to own it.





they could have come at any time to pick up the tank after he stopped

paying for it. They didn't do that.



This is true. All they needed to do was disconnect the pipes with a wrench

and bring a truck to haul it away. They might have to pay me for the

fuel inside, but, other than that, they "could" have physically taken it.

(I'm not sure if there are legal rules against trespassing to take back

your property though.)

The first step before any of that would have been
to notify you that they wanted their tank back.

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 18:48:40 -0400, "dadiOH"
wrote:

"Alex Gunderson" wrote in message

Googling for "How Much Does a 1000 Gallon Propane Tank
Cost" finds lots of hits, most of which are around $1200
to $1500 (which is $1.20/gallon to about $1.50/gallon)
which is less than the cost of the fuel which goes
*inside* the tank.

I keep meaning to ask, are you sure this is a 1000 gallon tank? That would
be HUGE for a residence. Generally, they are 100-120 gallons; physically,
maybe 6' long x 24-30" in diameter.

1000gal tanks aren't unusual at all. We have a 250gal tank in our
other house, just for the fireplace and stove. That certainly
wouldn't be enough if we were heating with propane. Note that propane
only has 60% of the heat of oil, so it has to be twice the size of an
oil tank to make any sense at all. 100gal tank is OK for a stove, but
that's about it.

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 22:51:25 +0000 (UTC), Alex Gunderson
wrote:

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 07:50:57 -0700, wrote:

It would seem to me that their claim
is against the previous owner, not you.

If I were the current propane company, I would not go after
back rent simply because nobody ever billed *me* for rent
and the original company certainly knew the address (if not
my name).

So, the original company "could" have billed me for the rent
all along - and they certainly did not.

The original company could have physically taken the tank
(but they'd have to trespass to do so) at any time, as it's
not bolted down.

The key problem now is that, if the tank truly is owned by
the propane company, then I can't legally switch suppliers
at any future point in time, simply because I can't sign
the affidavit that says I own the tank.

You can changesuppliers if and when the time comes by signing with a
different company and telling the current company to come and pick up
their tank. Decide THEN if you want to buy or rent, depending on what
the conditions are AT THAT TIME, if and when the time comes.

So, it still matters who owns the tank. It just doesn't
matter until/unless I want to switch suppliers or the
propane company wants to charge me future rent.

I guess it also matters if I sell the house; but I have no
plans for doing that.
If you sell the house you just say "ownership of propane tank is not
clear", and you are OK.

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 16:26:44 -0500, CRNG
wrote:

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 20:25:02 +0000 (UTC), Alex Gunderson
wrote in Re Who
actually owns this 1,000 gallon propane tank?:

I called the title company, who said that they will get back to me to
confirm, but, offhand, they said they don't cover "personal property".

They said they "think" the propane tank (just like a satellite dish)
is actually "personal property".

Generally, personal property that is "substantially affixed" to real
property, becomes real property. For example, consider a large
bathroom mirror that is hung with wires on the back of the mirror
frame to hooks on the wall. That mirror is personal property.

But take that mirror and screw it onto the wall via bolts going
through the frame and into the studs and it becomes real property.

Just use glass clips screwed into the dry-wall - with or without
anchors, and it becomes "real property. Even if it is fastened to the
wall with double sided tape.

Is a large outside steel tank connected by underground pipe to a
heating unit (which is certainly real property) also real property? I
would say yes; but that's what they have juries for: to decide such
things.

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 22:19:44 +0000 (UTC), Alex Gunderson
wrote:

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 13:42:32 -0400, clare wrote:

I wouldn't WANT to own a 1000 gallon fuel tank - propane, gasoline,
or deisel, strictly from the liability perspective. They own it, they are
responsible for it, and if anything goes wrong THEY replace it.

For some strange reason, from a home-repair perspective, owning
a big round cylinder that will outlast me plus the next two owners
of my residence (whomever they may be) just isn't a big worry for me.

I'm more worried about things that actually have moving parts.

+1

....but owning those is almost always a better deal, too. The leaser
isn't losing money. I rented the conversion burner because 1) I
didn't know how much life the boiler had left and 2) I owned it within
a few years anyway (the "interest" was about zero).

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 12:20:18 -0500, CRNG
wrote:

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 14:33:41 +0000 (UTC), Alex Gunderson
wrote in Re Who
actually owns this 1,000 gallon propane tank?:

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 08:41:20 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Are you unhappy with the present company?
Nope.

Why discuss all the work to change tanks,
if the existing tank is in acceptable shape?

Only for economy.

The propane company charges one rate for people who
rent the tank (in addition to the monthly rental fee).

But, they charge a lower rate for those who own
their tanks (with the benefit of no rental fee).

Correct. You would do well to put in your own tank.

Have you actually followed the thread?

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 12:22:43 -0700 (PDT), Chip C
wrote:

On Friday, 27 September 2013 10:34:13 UTC-4, Alex Gunderson wrote:
On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 05:52:20 -0700, wrote:

Apparently they questioned him as to who owned the tank and he filled out
an affidavit stating that he owned it.


Confirmed.

If anything ever goes wrong and the neighbors sue your delivery company (which they will, since it's richer than you) that affidavit will be central to downloading the liability to you. Which is kinda fair, really. I guess you could find yourself facing some kind of false-document charge, but only if some third party came forth with a claim to owning it, which is real unlikely after it blows up.

....and this happens exactly how often?

I presume your insurer has acknowledged its presence. They could forget you mentioned it to them, if it suited them.

Here we go; the old "they cancel your insurance after a claim" BS.

I'm increasingly thinking that since (a) there is no branding of any kind on the tank and (b) whatever company the prior owner used never came to demand it back when he quit buying from them, that it actually is a privately owned tank, and that you really did take ownership of it with the house.

No, if that's what happened, he does NOT own the thing. However, if
no one is giving him a hard time, he's already said *way* too much.
STFU and play dumb.

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 18:48:40 -0400, dadiOH wrote:

I keep meaning to ask, are you sure this is a 1000 gallon tank? That
would be HUGE for a residence. Generally, they are 100-120 gallons;
physically, maybe 6' long x 24-30" in diameter.

Well, I generally get a fill every couple of months of about 300 or 400
gallons but they fill it only to something like 75% and they don't let
it get empty (it's on a schedule that they calculate).

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 23:07:37 +0000 (UTC), Alex Gunderson
wrote:

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 07:53:44 -0700, wrote:

why not just keep doing what you've been doing?

Exactly what I *am* doing.

Until/unless there is a reason to change.

However, *if* the company approaches me, I want to have my ducks lined
up, since it takes TIME to figure out the correct arguments based on
the data.

Do you think they're going to demand it back *today*?

For example, when I get home, I will act on the tip to contact the
manufacturer of the tank to see who *they* sold the original tank to.

Who they sold it to is pretty much irrelevant. They have to show that
they still own it. THEN figure out how you want to deal with it.
You're just borrowing trouble.

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 15:13:31 -0400, krw wrote:

If they do figure it out, they'll likely only start charging you rent from
that day. I wouldn't expect them to just give you the tank, though.

I think the two negative things that would happen are both
surmountable, so, it wouldn't be catastrophic.

One is they could charge rent.
The other is that I couldn't shop around to another supplier.

On the other hand, rent isn't all that bad (many people rent); and,
on the same other hand, the company I chose is generally the cheapest.

http://www.southskyline.org/skyprop.html