On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 20:04:43 -0400, krw wrote:

Yes, I got that. STFU until they send him a bill (or contract). It's not
his responsibly to pay for it until the payment is requested. He has
signed nothing.

Hi Krw,
The ONE company I won't be calling will be Amerigas!

Here's what I know, so far ...
1. There are no disclosures, nor liens recorded related to the propane
tank, at either the state department level, or at the county level.
Note: In-person searches pending but title company searches completed.

2. The tank was manufactured by Roy E. Hanson Jr. Mfg
Phone: 213-747-7514

3. Hanson sold that tank to Surburban Propane of Whippany NY
Phone: 973-887-5300

4. The National Board record will likely corroborate that sale:
Phone: 614-431-3204 (response pending)

4. The local Suburban Propane has never put any tank at my address:
Phone: 408-227-8464

5. Amerigas bought Heritage Propane for $2.9 billion on Jan 12, 2012:
ibtimes.com/amerigas-buy-heritage-propane-29-billion-324045
amerigas.com/amerigas-propane-blog/amerigas-propane/news/amerigas-partners-announces-completion-of-heritage-propane-acquisition/

6. Presumably, Heritage Propane felt they owned my tank (reasons unknown).

7. Presumably, Amerigas feels they own my tank (again, unsubstantiated as yet).

So, the question is ... Who owns that tank?

More importantly, how is a lowly homeowner supposed to figure this out?
The title company "advisor" said I clearly own it, until someone proves otherwise,
in which case, I may have a claim against the seller's real-estate agent.

I have never exercised such a claim in my life, so I'd prefer not to
go through that (I've never sued anyone and I'm not a young man).

I'd prefer to simply know who owns that tank!

On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 17:54:27 -0400, Kurt Ullman wrote:

There is a $250 permit fee, but I spoke to that department and they
said they would never put down the serial number of the tank

That sorta surprises me. You would think they would take that to establish
if someone tries to change it out and not pay the fee.

I guess it's like swapping out the regulators.
Or replacing the earthquake tie-down straps.
You wouldn't expect to get a new permit for that.

But I don't know how this permit stuff works so I'm just guessing
based on the fact the guy told me that they definitely do NOT write
down the serial number of the propane tank in the permit & inspection
process.

On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 18:38:04 -0400, dadiOH wrote:

A welding supply place was where I bought mine.

That's interesting.

Googling, the welding supply propane regulators
don't seem to look anything like the tank regulators.

Here is a cite for the welding supply propane regulators:
http://www.weldersupply.com/products.asp?id=15

Here is what the propane tank regulators look like:
http://propanewarehouse.com/firstregulators.asp

On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 21:57:57 +0000, Alex Gunderson wrote:

Is there an actual DATE STAMP on the things?
(Note: When I get home, I'll check.)

Yup. On the two regulators (red and gray) at the tank itself,
there is a date stamp on each regulator.

There is no date stamp on the two regulators (brown and gray)
that are at the generator and house accordingly.

On 9/30/2013 4:38 PM, Alex Gunderson wrote:
On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 15:09:27 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

If I was the abandoned car, first thing I would do is ask the property
owner about it. Same as I would a propane tank.

I trusted the title company to ensure I bought the property free and
clear of liens. They certified it was. Who am I to doubt that?

You brought that up before. I don't see the title company even knowing
about the tank It is not real property so it would not be covered.
Same category as the paint can left in the garage. Unless there was a
previous dispute, no lien would exist.




Fast forward to today, I called the manufacturer of the tank,
Roy E. Hanson Jr. Mfg, who sold the tank to Suburban Propane
well before the penultimate owner bought the property. So the
tank was initially manufactured and sold to Suburban when a
prior owner (prior to the previous one) owned the property.

However, Suburban propane has no records of that tank ever being
on the property. Last week, we fortuitously find out that the Amerigas
tech states that he believes (based on serial number & address)
that the tank was owned by the Heritage Group, who was recently
bought (six months ago) by Amerigas.

There is no record of a lien at the County Records that we know of
(I will run a personal search though). There is no record of a
Uniform Commercial Code registration at the State Department.
The title company found no liens (again, I'm waiting for details).

Forget that silliness. Tanks are not registered like automobiles.


And, most important of all, the gas company (presumably) had a
lease with the penultimate owner which allowed them an easement
to take a tank they believed was theirs (which they never exercised
while the home was under that previous ownership (bearing in mind
the home lay vacant for a period of almost a year during the
economic downturn).

Seems to me that nobody can prove ownership.
What happens then?


If Suburban and its heirs had the proper records, they may own it. If
no one can prove ownership, by default possession probably you do.

On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 15:11:06 -0700, chaniarts wrote:

i do know that i can use different fill companies only after each come out
and do an inspection for safety (inside and out). however, they only did
that for the 1st fill, and none has ever been back for another check.

That was my exact experience with Amerigas.

They checked it once, tagged the kitchen grill, and then left and never
came back for inspection (until I called them for the BBQ last week).

So, I suspect I should probably pay the $100 each (roughly) to have
an inspection by the four local companies that are in the coop, and
just have them all set up, and do an at-will call to choose the
cheapest at the time that I start running down to about 40% or so.

On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 15:11:06 -0700, chaniarts wrote:

although amerigas sometimes sends me a
coupon for .50-$1/gallon about once every couple years.

I don't ever get those coupons!

But then again, I have a contractual price, based on
something like 56 cents above a published wholesale
price, as explained he
http://www.southskyline.org/skyprop.html

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 16:26:44 -0500, CRNG wrote:

Is a large outside steel tank connected by underground pipe to a heating
unit (which is certainly real property) also real property? I would say
yes; but that's what they have juries for: to decide such things.

The interesting thing is that I've concluded propane tanks are actually
like no other property attached to the residence. None of the examples
are even remotely similar, is what I've been concluding.

Looks like I'm not the only one to conclude that.

Look at this tax-related PDF I found trying to figure out whether
an LPG tank is real or personal property in the state of California.

PROPERTY TAX RULE 153 LIQUEFIED PETROLEUM GAS TANKS
http://www.boe.ca.gov/proptaxes/pdf/ip99051.pdf

Here's what it says inside (and I heartily agree):

"Contrary to the CAA's assertion, there is ample justification for treating
propane tanks differently, to-wit, that no other type of personal or real
property is similar. The CAA itself provides good examples of just how
unique propane tanks are."

They go on a bit later, saying:
"Propane tanks are unique in that they are often located on a lessee's
property, but cannot be used or "consumed" by the lessee."

Note: They do state there are 300,000 LPG tanks in use in California, essentially
all of which are not owned by the homeowner.

On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 21:26:30 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

You brought that up before. I don't see the title company even knowing
about the tank It is not real property so it would not be covered. Same
category as the paint can left in the garage. Unless there was a previous
dispute, no lien would exist.

I had a long conversation with the "advisor" at the title company.
He was strong about it. It's real property.
I too thought it might be personal property, but his point was that it is
clearly attached as a fixture to the house. And, it is.

Of course, it matters not what anyone "thinks"; what matters is how
case law in California treats a propane tank.

Googling for "Propane tank, California, real property or personal property"
I find this PDF which implies the industry wants propane tanks to be
considered "personal property", but that the state disagrees.

http://www.boe.ca.gov/proptaxes/pdf/ip99052.pdf
"Industry, the Western Propane Gas Association, disagrees with staff's
recommendation. Industry believes butane and propane tanks should be
classified as personal property."
[versus being classified as "improvements" by the state]

And, we know that improvements are, by definition, real property in
California (but not in other states).

For exampnle, here's a NJ lawyer saying it's real property (in NJ):
http://www.lawrenceyerkes.com/html/r...l-property.htm

Yet, here's a CA site which clearly mimics what we found in the tax document:
http://www.calproptax.com/1proprty.html

REAL PROPERTY in CALIFORNIA:
"Tanks, butane, propane and water softener, unburied but which remain in place,
except household"

So, it's pretty clear. The "industry" feels that propane tanks in California
are "personal property" (and so do some states, such as NJ); but the state
of California is pretty clear that it's "real property" (and they tax it
accordingly, as improvements).

On Tue, 1 Oct 2013 00:29:29 +0000 (UTC), Alex Gunderson
wrote:

On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 19:55:50 -0400, krw wrote:

Personally, I don't want to own a tank but would be
convinced if the numbers came out in my favor big-time.

I wouldn't even *think* of owning the tank with the numbers
being that the tank "could" pay for itself in just a couple
of fills.

In my other house (currently rented and under contract), the 250gal
propane tank is rented. I think they wanted something like $500
($1500 if buried) for it, IIRC. The rental is $45/year. There was no
way I'd buy it.

That it might spontaneously ignite is not a worry.

Right.

More to the point of home repair, the regulators (of which I have
3 low pressure and 1 high pressure) seem to need replacing, by
law? about every 12 years (if you believe Amerigas) or every
15 to 25 years (if you believe the propane association).

Amerigas: 12 years:
http://www.amerigas.com/amerigas-pro...ank-ownership/

Propane Association: 15 to 25 years:
http://www.propane101.com/regulators.htm

The cost to replace 1 regulator is $300 if Amerigas does it,
and about $73.22 if we do it ourselves.
http://propanewarehouse.com/firstregulators.asp

....and if I change my mind, I want to get rid of it without issue.
When we sold the house there was a question about the tank. Don't
want it (no fireplace and no gas stove), fine. Take it out.

On Thursday, September 26, 2013 7:56:06 PM UTC-4, Alex Gunderson wrote:
I realize this is a legal question but has anyone here had this happen.

Any advice?



1. Bought a house, as is, in 2010, which came with a 1,000 gallon propane tank attached.

2. Entered into agreement with fuel company "1" for fuel in 2010.

3. No tank rental is paid to fuel company 1 because it's not their tank

4. Recently a workman (inspecting the tank because of a new BBQ) mentioned that company 2 owns the tank

5. Company 2 was recently bought by company 1.



Nothing more has happened, but, who owns that tank?



I feel "I" own it by virtue of multiple circumstances (but I'm not a lawyer!):

a. I bought the house and everything attached to it

b. I never signed an agreement with company 2

c. Company 2 abandoned that tank long ago (IMHO)



I suspect, if company 1 wants to assert ownership of that tank, they could say:

A. Company 2 originally owned the tank

B. Company 2 still owns that tank

C. Therefore, company 1 (who owns company 2) owns that tank.



Have you ever been in this situation?

What advice do you have for me?



TIA

The water meter in my yard belongs to my house. The water company said it was mine. But I believe it is illegal for me to remove it.
I rented an apartment in Boston. It had an oil heater. The landlady was on the rag and shut it off in the middle of winter. That was illegal, but she did it anyway. The courts are kangaroo. The US government needs to be shutdown and the Republican party needs to be destroyed.
My back is part of my body. IT is mine. I demand the inquisition device out of my back George H W Bush stuck there in 1982.
There should be NO DEATH Penalty for killing US police. They are unconstitutional.

On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 20:03:49 -0700, US President is the Enemy wrote:

The water meter in my yard belongs to my house.
The water company said it was mine.

This is not even close to a similar example to propane.
For one, your water isn't delivered by a commercial truck.
Nor is the water stored in a big tank leased or owned by you.
For another, you don't have a choice of water companies.
For yet another, the water company is a regulated monopoly.

On Tue, 01 Oct 2013 00:36:22 +0000, Alex Gunderson wrote:

Can you explain what these numbers mean so that I can buy my own
replacement regulators when their time comes due?

I'm going to pull this out and make it a separate question.
I'll snap some pictures in the daylight, tomorrow.

On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 23:56:06 +0000, Alex Gunderson wrote:

Here is a summary of why there may be so much confusion regarding the status of propane tanks.

The propane tanks are considered real property in some states (notably California & NY), while, the exact same setup is personal property in other states.
Also, there is absolutely no example that equates to how propane tanks are treated in all states.

This explains why all the examples proposed so far (e.g., cars, electricity, telephone, garbage, etc., were clearly *not* equivalent examples!).
These examples might apply in some states; but they don't in California.

In fact the Western Propane industry argues vehemently that propane tanks are unique, and that there are no parallels (which I've come to appreciate, since I can easily shoot down any example anyone provides).

However, the state of California seems to think the following are equivalent: water softener tanks, butane tanks, propane tanks, coffee makers, soft drink dispensers, water coolers, cardboard box folding machines, sorters and medical test equipment.

http://www.boe.ca.gov/proptaxes/pdf/ip99051.pdf

Yet, the Western Propane industry group clearly says propane tanks are unique in that the propane tank itself is not consumed by the lessee. In fact, the lessee of a propane tank cannot touch or handle the tank in any way, by law. Propane tanks are unique in that they are often located on a lessee's property, but cannot be used or "consumed" by the lessee, unlike gas tanks and water tanks.

Interestingly, for NY state, propane tanks are apparently capital improvements to real property (as in California):
"The issue raised is whether the installation of certain liquid propane gas tanks constitutes a capital improvement to real property"
http://www.tax.ny.gov/pdf/advisory_o...es/a81_10s.pdf

Yet, in Tennessee, propane tanks are personal property:
http://statutes.laws.com/tennessee/t...art-5/67-5-501

In Missouri, the propane tanks are clearly personal property:
http://www.stc.mo.gov/pdf/078_CHAPTE...OPANETANKS.pdf

In Alabama, propane tanks are considered personal property:
http://jeffconline.jccal.org/taxasse...spersonal.html
http://jeffcointouch.com/jeffcointou...ssor/rvsp.html

Given that most states consider a propane tank personal property, yet, others (e.g., CA and NY apparently) consider it real property, that now explains *why* there is no need to file the UCC-1 in California.

It seems that, in the states where the tanks are personal property, the UCC-1 needs to be filed; however, the UCC-1 is apparently meaningless in states where the tanks are considered real property.
http://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/re...p-1340149.html
http://www.ncagr.gov/standard/LP/LPg...rnsAndFAQs.htm

This key distinction between personal property laws in California and NY versus most of the other states explains away all the confusion.

Only in the personal property states do you need to file the UCC-1 to maintain your claim on propane tanks:
https://www.secretary.state.nc.us/ucc/

On Tue, 01 Oct 2013 09:56:18 +0000, Alex Gunderson wrote:

The propane tanks are considered real property in some states (notably
California & NY), while, the exact same setup is personal property in
other states.

Here's a clear reference showing propane tanks to be considered
"improvements" to real property in the state of California.
http://www.boe.ca.gov/proptaxes/pdf/ip99038.pdf

To wit: "Propane tanks, unburied but which remain in place, are
listed in Rule 124 as an example of an *improvement*"

On Tue, 01 Oct 2013 10:24:43 +0000, Alex Gunderson wrote:

To wit: "Propane tanks, unburied but which remain in place, are listed in
Rule 124 as an example of an *improvement*"

Why not file an unclaimed property report with the state?
http://sco.ca.gov/Files-UPD/outreach...genrptinfo.pdf

On Tue, 1 Oct 2013 09:56:18 +0000 (UTC), Alex Gunderson
wrote in Re Who
actually owns this 1,000 gallon propane tank?:

Yet, the Western Propane industry group clearly says propane tanks are unique in that the propane tank itself is not consumed by the lessee. In fact, the lessee of a propane tank cannot touch or handle the tank in any way, by law. Propane tanks are unique in that they are often located on a lessee's property, but cannot be used or "consumed" by the lessee, unlike gas tanks and water tanks.

How can "gas tanks and water tanks" be "consumed" by the lessee?
--
Web based forums are like subscribing to 10 different newspapers
and having to visit 10 different news stands to pickup each one.
Email list-server groups and USENET are like having all of those
newspapers delivered to your door every morning.

"Alex Gunderson" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 08:18:54 -0700, wrote:

With the service guy having told him, I'd say if he doesn't
hear anything more in the next couple months, he's probably
OK for a long time.

I called Debra Bowen, Secretary of State, whose office said
they only handle commercial transaction recordings. The
Secretary of State's office said I needed to call the
County Recorder's office.

Calling the County Recorder was like calling the DMV.
Nobody knew anything. Everyone was guessing. I was appalled.

Nonetheless, they told me (after I asked to speak with
numerous people) that they've never heard of a propane
company filling out paperwork with them for the lease or
ownership of a propane tank.

Still, they said the only way to know for sure would be
to stop by and do a personal search on their non-Internet
computers - so - of course - that's what I'll do.

But, based on my conversations with them, I'm not going
to hold my breath that there is any record of the prior
transaction with the county.

Do you have any other ideas for whom to ask in the
government to see what the typical process might be?


No but it sounds as if your current gas company would have extreme
difficulty proving that the tank is NOT yours.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

On Tue, 01 Oct 2013 08:41:44 -0400, dadiOH wrote:

No but it sounds as if your current gas company would have extreme
difficulty proving that the tank is NOT yours.

I suspect nobody has a bill of sale.

That's why they haven't come to get it.

In addition, if it's "real property", they should have a lien
on file at the county recorder's office - so I'm off to there today
at lunch.

It would be nice if there is a lawyer in the group who can
doublecheck my revelation that the propane tanks in California
(and perhaps NY) are actually considered real property, instead
of personal property.

I can't be the only one on the planet to have figured that out.

On Tue, 01 Oct 2013 05:53:41 -0500, CRNG wrote:

How can "gas tanks and water tanks" be "consumed" by the lessee?

I think the propane group was arguing a bunch of points.

One point was that the propane tank isn't allowed to be touched
by the owner - so how can you call it "real property".

Gas tanks and water tanks have no such no-touch restrictions.

They listed a few of these things in the arguments (and they
pointed to case law a few times).

There arguments do bolster the funny feeling I had with all the
examples that were provided, every single one of which was
vastly different than the situation with the propane tanks
(e.g., cars, garbage, electricity, telephone, satellite dish, etc.)

So, having struggled with this concept myself, I'm a believer
that the only case law that will make sense is California
(and perhaps NY) case law specifically for propane tanks.

BTW, is there a lawyer in the group? (I can't be the only one
on the planet to notice that California apparently treats
propane tanks different than most other states.)

On 9/30/2013 10:52 PM, Alex Gunderson wrote:
On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 21:26:30 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:


REAL PROPERTY in CALIFORNIA:
"Tanks, butane, propane and water softener, unburied but which remain in place,
except household"

So, it's pretty clear. The "industry" feels that propane tanks in California
are "personal property" (and so do some states, such as NJ); but the state
of California is pretty clear that it's "real property" (and they tax it
accordingly, as improvements).


Comes down to money. Probably made it real property just for the tax
purpose.

On Tue, 01 Oct 2013 06:50:03 -0700, wrote:

But, maybe there is no one there to help him today. The govt appears to
be shut down. Probably a good thing too.

Actually, the "county" gob'ment is alive and well today.
I spend a few hours there today.
All in all, I came out with nothing; but here's what I know.

1. There are NO LIENS going back to multiple owners and to when the
house was built. The only lien on the house is the mortgage.
So, nobody has sued for their real property to be returned.

2. There are NO PERMITS for the propane tanks. They don't even
show up on any of the original plans. There is absolutely
nothing in the plans for the propane tanks. The *only*
mention of anything was that the gas plumbing was signed off
for leak testing. That's it.

So, at the county recorder's office (and planning office), there
is no record of any ownership of the propane tanks.

Sigh.

On Tue, 01 Oct 2013 13:42:37 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Comes down to money. Probably made it real property just for the tax
purpose.

You're probably right.

California figured they'd get more money from propane companies if
they call propane tanks real property instead of personal property.

I'm not sure how they'd get more money - but - the fact the propane
companies clearly argue the contrary opinion should give us a clue.

So, we now know that, in California, the TAX guys consider propane
tanks "real property".

The question has merit whether the COURTS also consider it real property.

This is especially important because a house that is sold, transfers
the real property, unless something is stated otherwise. Right?

If that's the case, then any real property that was actually owned
by the previous owner, was also transferred.

However, in this case, we don't know WHO owned that tank at the
time of sale.

The good news is that, if it's real property that is actually owned
by Amerigas (at this point), then I have a case to have my title
insurance make me whole because this is a real-property ownership
issue that popped up well after the sale.

The funny thing is that my searches all show that Suburban actually
owned that tank. Yet, Suburban never installed it at my residence.

So, unless Suburban sold it to the Heritage Group (who was bought
by Amerigas), I doubt even Amerigas can establish ownership of that
tank.

I just wish I could find a single similar California court case
to read by way of example - but - Google is failing me.

On 10/1/2013 3:04 PM, Alex Gunderson wrote:
On Tue, 01 Oct 2013 06:50:03 -0700, wrote:

But, maybe there is no one there to help him today. The govt appears to
be shut down. Probably a good thing too.

Actually, the "county" gob'ment is alive and well today.
I spend a few hours there today.
All in all, I came out with nothing; but here's what I know.

1. There are NO LIENS going back to multiple owners and to when the
house was built. The only lien on the house is the mortgage.
So, nobody has sued for their real property to be returned.

2. There are NO PERMITS for the propane tanks. They don't even
show up on any of the original plans. There is absolutely
nothing in the plans for the propane tanks. The *only*
mention of anything was that the gas plumbing was signed off
for leak testing. That's it.

So, at the county recorder's office (and planning office), there
is no record of any ownership of the propane tanks.

Sigh.



see? i told you the tank doesn't exist.

On Tue, 01 Oct 2013 08:41:44 -0400, dadiOH wrote:

No but it sounds as if your current gas company would have extreme
difficulty proving that the tank is NOT yours.

I received a call from the third-party advisor to my title insurance
company, who went back to 1984 in the computerized records, and then
back to the early 60's on paper.

They find absolutely no mention of the propane equipment, in any
public filing.

On Tue, 01 Oct 2013 15:53:30 -0700, chaniarts wrote:

see? i told you the tank doesn't exist.

Heh heh. Yeah. The Title Insurance Company referred me to
a research company (whom they pay to do additional research).

That research company went back to 1984 (computerized records)
and found nothing about a propane tank in any public record.

So, from the standpoint of the gob'ament, that tank doesn't
exist.

I also went to the planning department at the county level,
and, there are no permits for that tank to be put in, but
they said they might not have been required when it was
put in (they're required now if you CHANGE the location).

On Tue, 01 Oct 2013 15:53:30 -0700, chaniarts
wrote:

On 10/1/2013 3:04 PM, Alex Gunderson wrote:
On Tue, 01 Oct 2013 06:50:03 -0700, wrote:

But, maybe there is no one there to help him today. The govt appears to
be shut down. Probably a good thing too.

Actually, the "county" gob'ment is alive and well today.
I spend a few hours there today.
All in all, I came out with nothing; but here's what I know.

1. There are NO LIENS going back to multiple owners and to when the
house was built. The only lien on the house is the mortgage.
So, nobody has sued for their real property to be returned.

2. There are NO PERMITS for the propane tanks. They don't even
show up on any of the original plans. There is absolutely
nothing in the plans for the propane tanks. The *only*
mention of anything was that the gas plumbing was signed off
for leak testing. That's it.

So, at the county recorder's office (and planning office), there
is no record of any ownership of the propane tanks.

Sigh.



see? i told you the tank doesn't exist.

....a filament of his imagination.

As a followup, I called the county tax appraiser.

He first provided a glib response that nobody taxes residential
propane tanks. They ignore them on sight. Ummm... OK.

I then asked for an upgrade to the person answering, and got a
county *residential* adviser who first tried to convince
me that a tank is a repair, and as such is not taxed.

Allright. I asked for another guy - but I was stuck with this
one.

It took me a while to get him to understand that replacing
a rented tank with a rented tank, or, replacing an owned
tank with an owned tank isn't what I was asking ...

The tax question I was asking was:
Q: What is the residential tax consequence when a rented
propane tank is replaced by an owned tank (costing
roughly $3,000 to $4,000).

He said he'd get back to me.

PS: If someone is paying taxes on it, that's part of ownership
(in California, taxes are part of the adverse possession clause).

On Fri, 04 Oct 2013 19:20:47 +0000, Alex Gunderson wrote:

PS: If someone is paying taxes on it, that's part of ownership (in
California, taxes are part of the adverse possession clause).

You might want to ask in the legal groups but it seems to me
that you could attempt an adverse possession case if your ownership
was continuous for at least 5 years AND you paid your taxes on time.

New California Law Raises Bar on
Establishing Ownership Through Adverse Possession
April 2011
http://www.glawgroupapc.com/update/A...Newsletter.pdf

Adverse possession is accomplished when a party acquires ownership
to another's real property, without compensation, by holding the
property for a specified period of time in a manner that conflicts
with the true owner's rights.

Open Possession€� means undisguised and conspicuous possession
of real property that is generally known or recognized.

€œExclusive possession€� means that the person possessing the land
must be the only one occupying the property ...

....a party must occupy the real property hostilely, openly,
exclusively, and continuously for a period of five years
and pay the property taxes on the land.

€œHostile possession€� does not mean ill will or actual enmity,
but rather is actual occupation or possession of the real
property, without the permission of anyone claiming title, and
claiming ownership (either express or implied).

AB 1684 amends California Code of Civil Procedure §325 by
requiring that the adverse possessor *timely* pay all taxes
associated with ownership of the real property.

The Daring Dufas posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP

When I was a kid back on the mountaintop farm, we had a 500gal propane
tank. I remember thinking how cool (no pun) it was when the propane
delivery truck driver purged the fill hose producing a big white cloud.
Of course now I know it would have made quite a big boom if there had
been any ignition source around it. How did I ever survive childhood? o_O


Are you sure you survived and life is not just a
figment of your imagination? Like school being
uphill both ways, etc.

--
Tekkie

On 10/7/2013 8:17 PM, Tekkie® wrote:
The Daring Dufas posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP

When I was a kid back on the mountaintop farm, we had a 500gal propane
tank. I remember thinking how cool (no pun) it was when the propane
delivery truck driver purged the fill hose producing a big white cloud.
Of course now I know it would have made quite a big boom if there had
been any ignition source around it. How did I ever survive childhood? o_O


Are you sure you survived and life is not just a
figment of your imagination? Like school being
uphill both ways, etc.


I truly believe I'm stronger because of all the crap I went through as a
kid and I believe children today are so screwed up because parents keep
the little heathens TOO protected from stress and injury. o_O

TDD

On 9/26/2013 4:56 PM, Alex Gunderson wrote:
I realize this is a legal question but has anyone here had this happen.
Any advice?

1. Bought a house, as is, in 2010, which came with a 1,000 gallon propane tank attached.
2. Entered into agreement with fuel company "1" for fuel in 2010.
3. No tank rental is paid to fuel company 1 because it's not their tank
4. Recently a workman (inspecting the tank because of a new BBQ) mentioned that company 2 owns the tank
5. Company 2 was recently bought by company 1.

Nothing more has happened, but, who owns that tank?

I feel "I" own it by virtue of multiple circumstances (but I'm not a lawyer!):
a. I bought the house and everything attached to it
b. I never signed an agreement with company 2
c. Company 2 abandoned that tank long ago (IMHO)

I suspect, if company 1 wants to assert ownership of that tank, they could say:
A. Company 2 originally owned the tank
B. Company 2 still owns that tank
C. Therefore, company 1 (who owns company 2) owns that tank.

Have you ever been in this situation?
What advice do you have for me?

TIA

I can offer only my same experiences in similar situations, and as in
one size does not fit all, here goes.

Basically, the best first thing to do is to call the local supplier(s).
Those would be the people who you will be dealing with on an ongoing
relationship to come and fill the tank, make sure it is up to snuff code
wise, and inspection wise.

I am familiar with high pressure vessels, and vessels containing various
gases from my welding expertise. Ownership of said vessel may not be
what it appears, and by that I mean that if a dealer "owns" a vessel,
and has been renting/leasing that vessel to a homeowner, they still
retain legal ownership. It does not matter to the legal owner that the
possessor of such item "sells" it to another person, that person may not
be legally capable of "SELLING" such an item. It would be like selling
a leased car. IOW, the seller of the house may have been "selling"
something that they did not own, such as a leased water treatment
system, or other things that may be in the possession of the homeowner,
yet be owned by another person.

In such a case, the seller was obligated to divulge to you under
disclosure laws that certain item(s) were not the seller's to sell.

Which brings us back to the starting point. And that is .......... call
the company who "may" own the tank, and explain to them the situation.
That you want to do the right thing, although the seller might have not.
They will want your future business, and I would think they would give
a little ground here, wanting your future and ongoing business.

You are in a bad place here, possibly insisting that property that is
actually "stolen" from the legal owner is in your possession, which may
be the case. Do not insist on yours "rights", and "possession is
nine-tenths stuff.

I think that if you approach the company with the right attitude, that
they should do the right thing, want your future business, and work out
a solution.


Let us know how it shakes out.

Steve

On Tuesday, October 15, 2013 8:24:06 PM UTC-4, SteveB wrote:
On 9/26/2013 4:56 PM, Alex Gunderson wrote:

I realize this is a legal question but has anyone here had this happen.

Any advice?



1. Bought a house, as is, in 2010, which came with a 1,000 gallon propane tank attached.

2. Entered into agreement with fuel company "1" for fuel in 2010.

3. No tank rental is paid to fuel company 1 because it's not their tank

4. Recently a workman (inspecting the tank because of a new BBQ) mentioned that company 2 owns the tank

5. Company 2 was recently bought by company 1.



Nothing more has happened, but, who owns that tank?



I feel "I" own it by virtue of multiple circumstances (but I'm not a lawyer!):

a. I bought the house and everything attached to it

b. I never signed an agreement with company 2

c. Company 2 abandoned that tank long ago (IMHO)



I suspect, if company 1 wants to assert ownership of that tank, they could say:

A. Company 2 originally owned the tank

B. Company 2 still owns that tank

C. Therefore, company 1 (who owns company 2) owns that tank.



Have you ever been in this situation?

What advice do you have for me?



TIA



I can offer only my same experiences in similar situations, and as in

one size does not fit all, here goes.



Basically, the best first thing to do is to call the local supplier(s).

Those would be the people who you will be dealing with on an ongoing

relationship to come and fill the tank, make sure it is up to snuff code

wise, and inspection wise.



If you read the OP, which you included with your post
he's been there and done that.
About 3 years ago when he bought the house, he chose a
supplier, they came out and inspected the tank before
starting service.





I am familiar with high pressure vessels, and vessels containing various

gases from my welding expertise. Ownership of said vessel may not be

what it appears, and by that I mean that if a dealer "owns" a vessel,

and has been renting/leasing that vessel to a homeowner, they still

retain legal ownership. It does not matter to the legal owner that the

possessor of such item "sells" it to another person, that person may not

be legally capable of "SELLING" such an item. It would be like selling

a leased car. IOW, the seller of the house may have been "selling"

something that they did not own, such as a leased water treatment

system, or other things that may be in the possession of the homeowner,

yet be owned by another person.



Again, we've been through all that a dozen times already.





In such a case, the seller was obligated to divulge to you under

disclosure laws that certain item(s) were not the seller's to sell.



Which brings us back to the starting point. And that is .......... call

the company who "may" own the tank, and explain to them the situation.

That you want to do the right thing, although the seller might have not.

They will want your future business, and I would think they would give

a little ground here, wanting your future and ongoing business.



Again, if you read the thread, the company who he thinks
likely owned the tank has been bought by the company who
he has had servicing the tank for the last 3 years.





You are in a bad place here,

And why exactly is that? He's had a tank for 3 years
that he believed was his. No one came to claim it.
Surely when the previous owner discontinued gas service
that company should have known enough to come get their
tank if they wanted it back. He hasn't hid the tank,
it's sitting there in plain sight.

Further, the company that he chose and has been using
has now bought the original company. They were there
recently for another service issue and while there the
service guy looked up the tank in their records, which
presumably now include records of the original company,
and told him that was who owned it. So, if the service
guy is correct, the current company owns it and knows
about it.

Meanwhile he's had a tank for free for 3 years and so
far the company hasn't done anything about it. They
might, if the service guy goes back and reports it,
etc. But if they do, so what? What "bad place"
exactly is he in?



possibly insisting that property that is

actually "stolen" from the legal owner is in your possession, which may

be the case. Do not insist on yours "rights", and "possession is

nine-tenths stuff.



Why shouldn't he insist on his rights? Good grief.
I suppose he should go down to the police and turn
himself in, when he's done nothing wrong.




I think that if you approach the company with the right attitude, that

they should do the right thing, want your future business, and work out

a solution.



They have his business. He apparently has their tank.
They know it. I don't see any compelling need for hime
to do anything unless someone else initiates some kind
of action, eg starting to charge for tank rental.







Let us know how it shakes out.



Steve

On Tue, 15 Oct 2013 17:24:06 -0700, SteveB
wrote:

On 9/26/2013 4:56 PM, Alex Gunderson wrote:
I realize this is a legal question but has anyone here had this happen.
Any advice?

1. Bought a house, as is, in 2010, which came with a 1,000 gallon propane tank attached.
2. Entered into agreement with fuel company "1" for fuel in 2010.
3. No tank rental is paid to fuel company 1 because it's not their tank
4. Recently a workman (inspecting the tank because of a new BBQ) mentioned that company 2 owns the tank
5. Company 2 was recently bought by company 1.

Nothing more has happened, but, who owns that tank?

I feel "I" own it by virtue of multiple circumstances (but I'm not a lawyer!):
a. I bought the house and everything attached to it
b. I never signed an agreement with company 2
c. Company 2 abandoned that tank long ago (IMHO)

I suspect, if company 1 wants to assert ownership of that tank, they could say:
A. Company 2 originally owned the tank
B. Company 2 still owns that tank
C. Therefore, company 1 (who owns company 2) owns that tank.

Have you ever been in this situation?
What advice do you have for me?

TIA

I can offer only my same experiences in similar situations, and as in
one size does not fit all, here goes.

Basically, the best first thing to do is to call the local supplier(s).
Those would be the people who you will be dealing with on an ongoing
relationship to come and fill the tank, make sure it is up to snuff code
wise, and inspection wise.

I am familiar with high pressure vessels, and vessels containing various
gases from my welding expertise. Ownership of said vessel may not be
what it appears, and by that I mean that if a dealer "owns" a vessel,
and has been renting/leasing that vessel to a homeowner, they still
retain legal ownership. It does not matter to the legal owner that the
possessor of such item "sells" it to another person, that person may not
be legally capable of "SELLING" such an item. It would be like selling
a leased car. IOW, the seller of the house may have been "selling"
something that they did not own, such as a leased water treatment
system, or other things that may be in the possession of the homeowner,
yet be owned by another person.

In such a case, the seller was obligated to divulge to you under
disclosure laws that certain item(s) were not the seller's to sell.

Which brings us back to the starting point. And that is .......... call
the company who "may" own the tank, and explain to them the situation.
That you want to do the right thing, although the seller might have not.
They will want your future business, and I would think they would give
a little ground here, wanting your future and ongoing business.

You are in a bad place here, possibly insisting that property that is
actually "stolen" from the legal owner is in your possession, which may
be the case. Do not insist on yours "rights", and "possession is
nine-tenths stuff.

I think that if you approach the company with the right attitude, that
they should do the right thing, want your future business, and work out
a solution.


Let us know how it shakes out.

Steve

I just sold a home with a similar situation. The house was leased by
tenants several years ago. The tenants acquired the tank. I assume
they leased it from the local propane company (there is only one company
nearby). These tenants were evicted and left on bad terms with me. The
home has been vacant for over 2 years, and I had it listed to sell. In
the meantime that tank has remained, and has not been filled. Last
month I sold the property. In the contract to sell, I made sure to
mention that the ownership of this tank is unknown, and that it likely
belongs to a propane company. I went on to state that the buyer knows
that the tank may be removed by such company, or that there may be other
limitations attached to it's use, such as it may only be filled by the
company that provides the tank, or that there may be rental fees. Then
I described the tank by size, and color (which does not really identify
it because they all look about the same). I did mention that there is
no company label on the tank to state who owns it, or other means of
identification. Just to be safe, I took a photo of the tank.

This way, I'm protected from having any legal repercussions at a later
date, because the buyers know that the tank may be removed or require
special conditions.

Normally those tanks bear the label of the company that owns them, if
they are rented tanks, and those who are owned by individuals have no
label. Since this one has no label, and I was unable to determine how
it got there, I had our lawyer write the contract to be sure the buyers
know this. The rest of their contract states that everything on the
property is being sold with the home, with the exception of this
questionable tank.

I verbally suggested to the buyers to inquire with the local propane
supplier, or just get it filled and see what happens.

Quite honestly, I think that a company that leases out propane tanks
should label them as to ownership, by placing their name and contact
info on them. That would eliminate issues such as this. Either way, I
am protected from any issues regarding this tank, by clearly stating
this in the contract.

On Monday, October 21, 2013 9:01:02 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 15 Oct 2013 17:24:06 -0700, SteveB

wrote:



On 9/26/2013 4:56 PM, Alex Gunderson wrote:

I realize this is a legal question but has anyone here had this happen.

Any advice?



1. Bought a house, as is, in 2010, which came with a 1,000 gallon propane tank attached.

2. Entered into agreement with fuel company "1" for fuel in 2010.

3. No tank rental is paid to fuel company 1 because it's not their tank

4. Recently a workman (inspecting the tank because of a new BBQ) mentioned that company 2 owns the tank

5. Company 2 was recently bought by company 1.



Nothing more has happened, but, who owns that tank?



I feel "I" own it by virtue of multiple circumstances (but I'm not a lawyer!):

a. I bought the house and everything attached to it

b. I never signed an agreement with company 2

c. Company 2 abandoned that tank long ago (IMHO)



I suspect, if company 1 wants to assert ownership of that tank, they could say:

A. Company 2 originally owned the tank

B. Company 2 still owns that tank

C. Therefore, company 1 (who owns company 2) owns that tank.



Have you ever been in this situation?

What advice do you have for me?



TIA



I can offer only my same experiences in similar situations, and as in

one size does not fit all, here goes.



Basically, the best first thing to do is to call the local supplier(s).

Those would be the people who you will be dealing with on an ongoing

relationship to come and fill the tank, make sure it is up to snuff code

wise, and inspection wise.



I am familiar with high pressure vessels, and vessels containing various

gases from my welding expertise. Ownership of said vessel may not be

what it appears, and by that I mean that if a dealer "owns" a vessel,

and has been renting/leasing that vessel to a homeowner, they still

retain legal ownership. It does not matter to the legal owner that the

possessor of such item "sells" it to another person, that person may not

be legally capable of "SELLING" such an item. It would be like selling

a leased car. IOW, the seller of the house may have been "selling"

something that they did not own, such as a leased water treatment

system, or other things that may be in the possession of the homeowner,

yet be owned by another person.



In such a case, the seller was obligated to divulge to you under

disclosure laws that certain item(s) were not the seller's to sell.



Which brings us back to the starting point. And that is .......... call

the company who "may" own the tank, and explain to them the situation.

That you want to do the right thing, although the seller might have not.

They will want your future business, and I would think they would give

a little ground here, wanting your future and ongoing business.



You are in a bad place here, possibly insisting that property that is

actually "stolen" from the legal owner is in your possession, which may

be the case. Do not insist on yours "rights", and "possession is

nine-tenths stuff.



I think that if you approach the company with the right attitude, that

they should do the right thing, want your future business, and work out

a solution.





Let us know how it shakes out.



Steve



I just sold a home with a similar situation. The house was leased by

tenants several years ago. The tenants acquired the tank. I assume

they leased it from the local propane company (there is only one company

nearby). These tenants were evicted and left on bad terms with me. The

home has been vacant for over 2 years, and I had it listed to sell. In

the meantime that tank has remained, and has not been filled. Last

month I sold the property. In the contract to sell, I made sure to

mention that the ownership of this tank is unknown, and that it likely

belongs to a propane company. I went on to state that the buyer knows

that the tank may be removed by such company, or that there may be other

limitations attached to it's use, such as it may only be filled by the

company that provides the tank, or that there may be rental fees. Then

I described the tank by size, and color (which does not really identify

it because they all look about the same). I did mention that there is

no company label on the tank to state who owns it, or other means of

identification. Just to be safe, I took a photo of the tank.



This way, I'm protected from having any legal repercussions at a later

date, because the buyers know that the tank may be removed or require

special conditions.



Normally those tanks bear the label of the company that owns them, if

they are rented tanks, and those who are owned by individuals have no

label. Since this one has no label, and I was unable to determine how

it got there, I had our lawyer write the contract to be sure the buyers

know this. The rest of their contract states that everything on the

property is being sold with the home, with the exception of this

questionable tank.



I verbally suggested to the buyers to inquire with the local propane

supplier, or just get it filled and see what happens.


Sounds like you did it the right and honest way.





Quite honestly, I think that a company that leases out propane tanks

should label them as to ownership, by placing their name and contact

info on them. That would eliminate issues such as this. Either way, I

am protected from any issues regarding this tank, by clearly stating

this in the contract.

That's a good point. I'm surprised that they aren't labeled
with the company's name, assuming it's leased. Of course someone
could always try to remove the info, but that wouldn't happen
in most cases and it would avoid a lot of problems.

The other thing I'm surprised doesn't happen is for the company
supplying gas to come put some kind of info tag on the tank
when the person receiving service terminates it. I would think
that in almost all cases, the previous person is going to call
to terminate, because they don't want bills continuing in their
name. You'd think the company might send someone out to put
a tag on the tank, saying, it's ours, to resume service call
us, etc. With no name, contact info, etc on the tank, it
can create all kinds of problems.