I realize this is a legal question but has anyone here had this happen.
Any advice?

1. Bought a house, as is, in 2010, which came with a 1,000 gallon propane tank attached.
2. Entered into agreement with fuel company "1" for fuel in 2010.
3. No tank rental is paid to fuel company 1 because it's not their tank
4. Recently a workman (inspecting the tank because of a new BBQ) mentioned that company 2 owns the tank
5. Company 2 was recently bought by company 1.

Nothing more has happened, but, who owns that tank?

I feel "I" own it by virtue of multiple circumstances (but I'm not a lawyer!):
a. I bought the house and everything attached to it
b. I never signed an agreement with company 2
c. Company 2 abandoned that tank long ago (IMHO)

I suspect, if company 1 wants to assert ownership of that tank, they could say:
A. Company 2 originally owned the tank
B. Company 2 still owns that tank
C. Therefore, company 1 (who owns company 2) owns that tank.

Have you ever been in this situation?
What advice do you have for me?

TIA

The tank may need perodic inspection in order to permit filling. So you mght need to add that to your question.

I do know the 20 pound propane tanks need a pressure test every so many years..

the tank is placed in a container covered with water. its then pressured to capacity.
if the container holding the tank has water spill out the tank is expanding too much and has failed inspection. at least this is my understanding of what was explained to me many years ago.....

of course the tank exploding etc is also a failure...

On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 23:56:06 +0000 (UTC), Alex Gunderson
wrote:

I realize this is a legal question but has anyone here had this happen.
Any advice?

1. Bought a house, as is, in 2010, which came with a 1,000 gallon propane tank attached.
2. Entered into agreement with fuel company "1" for fuel in 2010.
3. No tank rental is paid to fuel company 1 because it's not their tank
4. Recently a workman (inspecting the tank because of a new BBQ) mentioned that company 2 owns the tank
5. Company 2 was recently bought by company 1.

Nothing more has happened, but, who owns that tank?

I feel "I" own it by virtue of multiple circumstances (but I'm not a lawyer!):
a. I bought the house and everything attached to it

Not likely. The person selling it didn't have the right to sell what
wasn't his. You're in possession of stolen property. ;-)

b. I never signed an agreement with company 2

Doesn't matter.

c. Company 2 abandoned that tank long ago (IMHO)

YO isn't worth much.

I suspect, if company 1 wants to assert ownership of that tank, they could say:
A. Company 2 originally owned the tank
B. Company 2 still owns that tank
C. Therefore, company 1 (who owns company 2) owns that tank.

Yes.

Have you ever been in this situation?
What advice do you have for me?

Shut up. Maybe they'll never figure it out.

On Thursday, September 26, 2013 7:56:06 PM UTC-4, Alex Gunderson wrote:
I realize this is a legal question but has anyone here had this happen.

Any advice?



1. Bought a house, as is, in 2010, which came with a 1,000 gallon propane tank attached.

2. Entered into agreement with fuel company "1" for fuel in 2010.

3. No tank rental is paid to fuel company 1 because it's not their tank

4. Recently a workman (inspecting the tank because of a new BBQ) mentioned that company 2 owns the tank

How could he know for sure, unless he works for company #2?
It's possible company #2's name is on it, but maybe the
previous owner bought and paid for it. Did the sales contract
say anything, one way or the other? If I was selling a house
with a propane tank, I'd be sure to spell out if it's included
or not, and if not, who actually owns it.





5. Company 2 was recently bought by company 1.



Nothing more has happened, but, who owns that tank?



I feel "I" own it by virtue of multiple circumstances (but I'm not a lawyer!):

a. I bought the house and everything attached to it

I'm not a lawyer either, but I'm pretty sure you can't
sell what you don't own. Meaning if the tank was in fact
the property of a company and the previous owner did not
own it, then by selling the house they can't transfer ownership
to you just because they sold the house.



b. I never signed an agreement with company 2

But the previous owner probably did, if it in fact
really is their tank. So far, all you have is a workman
saying it belonged to company #2. Isn't there any
identification on it? When you chose company #1 to be
your gas provider, I would think they would ask if you
have a tank, need a tank, etc. And if you have a tank,
I would think they would come out and inspect it before
delivering gas to make sure it's safe. You would think
during that process the issue of it being company #2's
tank would have come up, but I guess not.





c. Company 2 abandoned that tank long ago (IMHO)


If it really is their tank, I doubt that is going to work.
Not if they have a signed contract with the previous owner
that lays out the terms of the lease and protects the
company's rights like they normally would.




I suspect, if company 1 wants to assert ownership of that tank, they could say:

A. Company 2 originally owned the tank

B. Company 2 still owns that tank

C. Therefore, company 1 (who owns company 2) owns that tank.


That sounds perfectly reasonable and right to me.





Have you ever been in this situation?

What advice do you have for me?



TIA

Why are you even worried about it? Unless someone is
now demanding you pay for the tank, what's the problem?

Another possible angle, if you can still contact the seller,
ask them who's tank it is. They may have bought it, or had it
on lease, then bought it, etc. And again, anything in the
contract about the tank? If it says the tank is included and
someone shows up saying it's their tank and can prove it, then
you'd have a claim against the seller. But if the contract is
silent on the issue, I doubt you have a case.

On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 17:10:08 -0700, bob haller wrote:

The tank may need perodic inspection in order to permit filling. So you
mght need to add that to your question.

Well, these 1,000 gallon tanks are above ground, and they're built
like cement outhouses, so the last thing on my mind is that the tank
is gonna explode.

Besides, the tank has a date stamp of 1999 so it is in fine shape.

I do know the 20 pound propane tanks need a pressure test every so many
years..

The company that fills the tank inspected it before entering into
the agreement with me.

the tank is placed in a container covered with water. its then pressured
to capacity.

There is no way you're going to take a one thousand gallon tank and
place it in a bucket of water. The thing is 15 feet long (or so).

of course the tank exploding etc is also a failure...

We have a better chance of winning the lottery than the tank suddenly
deciding to explode. So I'm not the least bit worried about safety.

I'm worried about ownership.

On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 20:23:03 -0400, krw wrote:

You're in possession of stolen property.

I understand your point.
But, what about "abandoned" property?


b. I never signed an agreement with company 2
Doesn't matter.

I guess that's because you're saying company 2 still
owns the tank so it doesn't matter that they left it
on my property, connected to the house, for the past
few years?

Maybe they'll never figure it out.

Or, maybe they'll figure it's not worth losing a customer
over a $1000 tank?

On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 17:25:52 -0700, wrote:

How could he know for sure, unless he works for company #2?

I think they go by serial number but I'm not sure.

It's possible company #2's name is on it, but maybe the previous owner
bought and paid for it.

Actually, there is no name on the tank other than the manufacturer
on the nameplate and a serial number and the poundage figures, and things
like that.

Did the sales contract say anything, one way or the other?

Nothing about the tank. It said the property was "as is".

If I was selling a house with a propane tank, I'd be sure to
spell out if it's included or not, and if not, who actually owns it.

I understand. When I first entered into the agreement with company 1
for the propane delivery, they asked for a bill of sale. I didn't have
one so they accepted an affidavit that I wrote saying I owned it.

I never thought anything of it at the time, but that's all I really
have that "specifically" mentions the tank ownership.

I'm not a lawyer either, but I'm pretty sure you can't sell what you don't
own. Meaning if the tank was in fact the property of a company and the
previous owner did not own it, then by selling the house they can't
transfer ownership to you just because they sold the house.

OK. This makes sense.
But, did company 2 "abandon" the tank?
Sort of like a ship at sea is abandoned and then anyone can have it?


Isn't there any identification on it?

Yes. There is a nameplate with a serial number, a date of manufacturer,
a company of manufacturer, the weight, and a bunch of other poundage figures.

I would think they would come out and inspect it before delivering gas to
make sure it's safe.

They did that years ago. I don't think the issue is safety.
The tank is in great shape. It will outlast the United States, let alone
the house, and me.

You would think during that process the issue of it
being company #2's tank would have come up, but I guess not.

I don't see how, from just the serial number, company 1 would know
anything about company 2. All they knew (and all I knew) at the time
was that it certainly wasn't company 1's tank.

So they've been filling it for years.

Not if they have a signed contract with the previous owner that lays out
the terms of the lease and protects the company's rights like they
normally would.

Well, if they do have a signed lease, that would be interesting.
I don't know that this exists. I never once spoke to the previous owner.
I never even met them. They essentially walked away from the property.

Why are you even worried about it?
Because I want to line up my ducks.
Just in case they come to me, I don't want to say something stupid.
I just want to know where I stand, legally.
I do realize this is a home-repair group - but - I was hoping someone
would have experience with this, first hand - and then could provide
advice.

I do appreciate the help as I know you don't have to advise me.

Alex Gunderson wrote:
On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 17:10:08 -0700, bob haller wrote:

The tank may need perodic inspection in order to permit filling. So you
mght need to add that to your question.

Well, these 1,000 gallon tanks are above ground, and they're built
like cement outhouses, so the last thing on my mind is that the tank
is gonna explode.

Besides, the tank has a date stamp of 1999 so it is in fine shape.

I do know the 20 pound propane tanks need a pressure test every so many
years..

The company that fills the tank inspected it before entering into
the agreement with me.

the tank is placed in a container covered with water. its then pressured
to capacity.

There is no way you're going to take a one thousand gallon tank and
place it in a bucket of water. The thing is 15 feet long (or so).

of course the tank exploding etc is also a failure...

We have a better chance of winning the lottery than the tank suddenly
deciding to explode. So I'm not the least bit worried about safety.

I'm worried about ownership.

Hmm,
Can't you contact previous owner? Wonder why you did not check about the
ownership(tank was rented, leased or what?) when you purchased the
house? The seller, buyer, real estate lawyer were not diligent in this
case, IMHO.

On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 23:56:06 +0000 (UTC), Alex Gunderson
wrote:

I realize this is a legal question but has anyone here had this happen.
Any advice?

1. Bought a house, as is, in 2010, which came with a 1,000 gallon propane tank attached.
2. Entered into agreement with fuel company "1" for fuel in 2010.
3. No tank rental is paid to fuel company 1 because it's not their tank
4. Recently a workman (inspecting the tank because of a new BBQ) mentioned that company 2 owns the tank
5. Company 2 was recently bought by company 1.

Nothing more has happened, but, who owns that tank?

I feel "I" own it by virtue of multiple circumstances (but I'm not a lawyer!):
a. I bought the house and everything attached to it
b. I never signed an agreement with company 2
c. Company 2 abandoned that tank long ago (IMHO)

I suspect, if company 1 wants to assert ownership of that tank, they could say:
A. Company 2 originally owned the tank
B. Company 2 still owns that tank
C. Therefore, company 1 (who owns company 2) owns that tank.

Have you ever been in this situation?
What advice do you have for me?

TIA

You can be pretty sure that you don't own it. From the scenario you
describe, probably No 1 owns it since they bought #2.

Your opinion does not matter. You cannot prove it was abandoned and
unless you have a bill of sale that the previous owner of the house
owned the tank, you did not buy it. On top of all that, propane
companies are notoriously sleazy when it comes to filling tanks if it
is not their tank. Some state laws may possibly come into play too,
at least they do here in CT. If a propane company does not own the
tank they are not allowed to fill it.

On Thursday, September 26, 2013 4:56:06 PM UTC-7, Alex Gunderson wrote:
I realize this is a legal question but has anyone here had this happen.

Any advice?



1. Bought a house, as is, in 2010, which came with a 1,000 gallon propane tank attached.

2. Entered into agreement with fuel company "1" for fuel in 2010.

3. No tank rental is paid to fuel company 1 because it's not their tank

4. Recently a workman (inspecting the tank because of a new BBQ) mentioned that company 2 owns the tank

5. Company 2 was recently bought by company 1.



Nothing more has happened, but, who owns that tank?



I feel "I" own it by virtue of multiple circumstances (but I'm not a lawyer!):

a. I bought the house and everything attached to it

b. I never signed an agreement with company 2

c. Company 2 abandoned that tank long ago (IMHO)



I suspect, if company 1 wants to assert ownership of that tank, they could say:

A. Company 2 originally owned the tank

B. Company 2 still owns that tank

C. Therefore, company 1 (who owns company 2) owns that tank.



Have you ever been in this situation?

What advice do you have for me?



TIA

Yes I understand that the chances are one in a million but the question is:
If the tank blew-up would you sue company 1?

On 9/26/2013 8:49 PM, Alex Gunderson wrote:
On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 17:25:52 -0700, wrote:
....

I understand. When I first entered into the agreement with company 1
for the propane delivery, they asked for a bill of sale. I didn't have
one so they accepted an affidavit that I wrote saying I owned it.

I never thought anything of it at the time, but that's all I really
have that "specifically" mentions the tank ownership.

....

So they've been filling it for years.

....

I just want to know where I stand, legally.
I do realize this is a home-repair group - but - I was hoping someone
would have experience with this, first hand - and then could provide
advice.

I do appreciate the help as I know you don't have to advise me.

The answer is there's no way for anyone here to know -- we're not in
possession of facts not available (sorta' goes w/o saying but in law
everything 'pends on the specifics).

In all likelihood the case is as outlined previously presuming that the
tank doesn't go back beyond the even the other company you do know of.

I don't think you can determine any real definitive answer to the
question w/o further data either confirming as you say from a S/N
whether the tank did come from one or the other companies in question if
they have such records and can therefrom produce previous history.

Clearly you own the property in question; whether the tank was the
previous occupant's to transfer is in doubt apparently so there is no
way to rely on that as has been noted previously as well.

All in all, unless a phone call to the alternate company can shed light
on whether it was there I suspect the cost involved in establishing the
actual pedigree would probably exceed the value of the tank.

If it hasn't been an issue so far, I'd suspect it's unlikely to become
one in the future.

--

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 01:41:04 +0000 (UTC), Alex Gunderson
wrote:

On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 20:23:03 -0400, krw wrote:

You're in possession of stolen property.

I understand your point.
But, what about "abandoned" property?


b. I never signed an agreement with company 2
Doesn't matter.

I guess that's because you're saying company 2 still
owns the tank so it doesn't matter that they left it
on my property, connected to the house, for the past
few years?

Maybe they'll never figure it out.

Or, maybe they'll figure it's not worth losing a customer
over a $1000 tank?

If they decide it's their tank tell them fine, they can have it as
soon as the pay the storage fees. Even a nominal $10 a day is going
to cost them some bucks.

On 09/26/2013 07:56 PM, Alex Gunderson wrote:
Have you ever been in this situation?
What advice do you have for me?

If the tank blows up and kills the neighbor's kid, will you still be
claiming ownership of the tank? I doubt it.

Tell the owner of the tank to come and get their tank.
Buy a new tank from a different propane supplier.

On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 19:58:37 -0600, Tony Hwang wrote:
The seller, buyer, real estate lawyer were not diligent in this case,

There are no lawyers involved when you buy a house in California.
When you buy as is, you don't even bother with a home inspection out here.

It's not the real estate agent's responsibility.
And, the buyer buys title insurance for this purpose.

Come to think of it. I wonder if my title insurance covers this?

"Alex Gunderson" wrote in message

I realize this is a legal question but has anyone here
had this happen.
Any advice?

1. Bought a house, as is, in 2010, which came with a
1,000 gallon propane tank attached.
2. Entered into agreement with fuel company "1" for fuel
in 2010.
3. No tank rental is paid to fuel company 1 because it's
not their tank
4. Recently a workman (inspecting the tank because of a
new BBQ) mentioned that company 2 owns the tank
5. Company 2 was recently bought by company 1.

Nothing more has happened, but, who owns that tank?

Around here - central Florida - such tanks are generally owned by the
company providing the gas; they may or may not charge an annual fee for its
use. However, if one changes gas provider, the previous company has 30 days
to come get their tank; if they don't then it is bye-bye tank for them.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 22:37:58 -0700, Ashton Crusher wrote:

If they decide it's their tank tell them fine, they can have it as soon as
the pay the storage fees. Even a nominal $10 a day is going to cost them
some bucks.

It's funny you say that because my wife suggested we charge them rent!

The problem, of course, is that I need to have them deliver the propane.

I haven't done the research lately, but they were the cheapest of the
four or five companies that I can buy propane from out here.

And, as they buy each other up, their numbers are dwindling.

I think they'll pick up the tank for free though - but then I'm left
with buying a brand new tank.

Luckily, they're not too expensive, about a dollar a gallon, so, it would
cost about a thousand gallons. I will have to put in a concrete reinforced
pad and earthquake straps and I'll need to trench it since I'd move it
elsewhere - so I've been looking up all that separately.

EDIT: Plus it looks like I need a set of high pressure and low pressure
regulators. One each at the tank, and one at the house.

the OP will find a must inspec date stamped into the tank, after that no propane supplier will legally be able to fill it....

I dont know how they inspect such large tanks, it might be like high pressure gas lines are inspected at weld joints. they are X ray.......

but the method doesnt matter.

try calling a totally different gas supplier perhaps at the other end of your state to get answers....

and be sure to ask about large propane tank inspections

http://www.ncagr.gov/standard/LP/LPg....htm#Delivery5

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 00:24:08 -0500, dpb wrote:

Clearly you own the property in question; whether the tank was the
previous occupant's to transfer is in doubt

After googling and googling and googling, I've come to the
belated realization that this is a relatively common situation.

I couldn't find any California statutes, so all I have is anecdotal
forum and usenet situations, all of which have their myriad details,
but it seems like the tank belongs to whomever can prove they own it.

I went back to my title papers, and there is just no mention of the
tank. Since the serial number is presumably unique, I am slowly
realizing it's probably their tank, and not mine, as I have thought
all this time.

I will call the title insurance company today, to see if they'll
compensate me for my $2,000 loss - but - since it's not actually
mentioned in the paperwork, I doubt it's something they deal with.

So, now I'm making plans for buying a new tank, and putting it in
myself.

It looks like I'll need the following (based on new regulations
of distance from the house and earthquake resistance which had
grandfathered the original tank but don't apply to new):
* new 1,000 gallon propane tank *
* reinforced concrete pad with tie-down eyehooks or lag bolts *
* trench must be 12" deep minimum & 18" if driven over *
* underground yellow flexible conduit (25' minimum distance) *
* two galvanized steel risers at the tank *
* high pressure regulator at the tank for the house *
* low pressure regulator at the tank for the pool & BBQ *
* low pressure regulator at the house *

On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 23:35:42 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
Your opinion does not matter...
unless you have a bill of sale ... you did not buy it.

Belatedly, I'm coming to that very same realization.

In fact, it seems that the current company might even be
able to charge me back rent for the tank.

The rent is about $15/month, so that would amount to hundreds
of dollars (for a tank that's only worth about $1 per gallon).

On top of all that, propane companies are notoriously sleazy
when it comes to filling tanks if it is not their tank.

All the companies out here in California will fill only two
types of tanks:

1. Theirs
2. Yours

So, I called the propane company, anonymously, and asked
how much it would cost to have a new tank put in that I pay for.

If I buy the tank from them for roughly $1/gallon of capacity,
they will deliver it and strap it down and put in the three
regulators.

It's my responsibility to put in the reinforced concrete pad,
tie-down attachment points, 12" trench, yellow conduit, & two
stainless steel risers.

On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 22:11:02 -0700, recyclebinned wrote:

Yes I understand that the chances are one in a million
but the question is:
If the tank blew-up would you sue company 1?

I've never sued anyone in my life, and I'm over 60, so, probably
not. Unless someone was hurt badly, and then I'd probably want
their medical costs covered.

Also, I must repeat, the chance of the tank blowing up is
so low that it's more likely that the chimney will blow over
in a strong wind - so I must deal with more pragmatic matters.

The most pragmatic seems to be for me to buy a new tank (if
they won't sell the old one to me for a good price).

The key problem with a new tank is that the old grandfathered
rules no longer apply - so - I am scoping out the additional
concrete pad, tie-down points, trench, conduit, risers, & regulators.

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 04:48:23 -0400, noname wrote:

Tell the owner of the tank to come and get their tank.
Buy a new tank from a different propane supplier.

That's exactly what I'm leaning toward.

To that end, I had a long talk with the propane
company sales & technical support.

This is preliminary, but this is what I'm assessing:

1. Propane company will deliver a new empty tank
2. Tank must (now) be 25' from all structures
3. Trench needs to be 12" deep (if not driven over)
4. Tank must have a reinforced concrete pad
5. Pad must have tie-down eyebolts or lag bolts
6. Conduit must have metal wire running alongside
7. Both risers must be plastic or steel
8. Propane company will install & own the 3 regulators
9. Propane company will deliver tank (but I can own it)
10. Propane company will install & own tie-down straps
11. Propane company will connect, own, & inspect connections
12. Propane company will deliver fuel

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 11:16:37 +0000 (UTC), Alex Gunderson
wrote in Re Who
actually owns this 1,000 gallon propane tank?:

On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 19:58:37 -0600, Tony Hwang wrote:
The seller, buyer, real estate lawyer were not diligent in this case,

There are no lawyers involved when you buy a house in California.
When you buy as is, you don't even bother with a home inspection out here.

I used to have a R.E. license in Calif, and from what you have
written, here is my take on the situation.

a) If the previous property owner owned the tank, then you now own
the tank, because it is part of the real estate, being an attached
appurtenance to the house.

b) If the previous owner did not own the tank, (e.g. it was owned by
the gas company-A ) then the gas company owns it.

c) When gas company-A was bought by gas company-B, then company-B
became the new owner of the tank, assuming company-B bought all the
assets of company-A (and not just it's name).

It's not the real estate agent's responsibility.
And, the buyer buys title insurance for this purpose.

Come to think of it. I wonder if my title insurance covers this?

I doubt it, but it's worth a try.

Let us know how it turns out.
--
Web based forums are like subscribing to 10 different newspapers
and having to visit 10 different news stands to pickup each one.
Email list-server groups and USENET are like having all of those
newspapers delivered to your door every morning.

On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 22:37:58 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:




If they decide it's their tank tell them fine, they can have it as
soon as the pay the storage fees. Even a nominal $10 a day is going
to cost them some bucks.

Wow, that's funny. I can hear them laughing all the way over here.
They will counter with a tank rental bill, of course.

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 07:37:07 -0400, dadiOH wrote:

Around here - central Florida - such tanks are generally owned by the
company providing the gas; they may or may not charge an annual fee for
its use.

Out here, in California, all the propane companies will deliver a
tank for free and let you rent it from them for a monthly fee.

However, the propane company I use will fill only two types of tanks:
1. Their tank
2. Your tank

They told me they own the connections from the regulators to the tank,
including the regulators themselves. I can own everything else,
on both sides of those connections.

So, I'm scoping this out as we speak.

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 04:48:23 -0400, noname
wrote:

On 09/26/2013 07:56 PM, Alex Gunderson wrote:
Have you ever been in this situation?
What advice do you have for me?

If the tank blows up and kills the neighbor's kid, will you still be
claiming ownership of the tank? I doubt it.

Tell the owner of the tank to come and get their tank.
Buy a new tank from a different propane supplier.

If they even will sell you one. Many will not so they have you
dependent on them for fuel. You will have to find one and have it
installed yourself in some areas. As mentioned before, propane
dealers can make used car salesmen and lawyers look good.

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 07:37:07 -0400, dadiOH wrote:

if one changes gas provider, the previous company has
30 days to come get their tank; if they don't, then it
is bye-bye tank for them.

Aha! That's the abandonment clause.

That's the one thing I'm unsure of, out here, for California.

I found THIS legal site, but it doesn't seem to cover that topic.

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/di...file=4451-4465

If the tank has a company logo on it "BURNWELL
GAS" for example, it's probably owned by them.
If it's just white, it may have been purchased
outright by the HO, or maybe no one remembers.

..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 9/26/2013 7:56 PM, Alex Gunderson wrote:
I realize this is a legal question but has anyone here had this happen.
Any advice?

1. Bought a house, as is, in 2010, which came with a 1,000 gallon propane tank attached.
2. Entered into agreement with fuel company "1" for fuel in 2010.
3. No tank rental is paid to fuel company 1 because it's not their tank
4. Recently a workman (inspecting the tank because of a new BBQ) mentioned that company 2 owns the tank
5. Company 2 was recently bought by company 1.

Nothing more has happened, but, who owns that tank?

I feel "I" own it by virtue of multiple circumstances (but I'm not a lawyer!):
a. I bought the house and everything attached to it
b. I never signed an agreement with company 2
c. Company 2 abandoned that tank long ago (IMHO)

I suspect, if company 1 wants to assert ownership of that tank, they could say:
A. Company 2 originally owned the tank
B. Company 2 still owns that tank
C. Therefore, company 1 (who owns company 2) owns that tank.

Have you ever been in this situation?
What advice do you have for me?

TIA

Does he have to shoot the tank, and then
shovel some dirt on the tank?

I've heard that in NYS, if the tank has a
company logo, that other companies will
refuse to fill it.

I advise you to very gently sand off any
rust. Prime with grey primer, then paint
the tank with white enamel paint, and
don't say anything to anyone about it,
like K says.


..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 9/26/2013 8:23 PM, wrote:

Have you ever been in this situation?
What advice do you have for me?

Shut up. Maybe they'll never figure it out.

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 12:01:06 +0000 (UTC), Alex Gunderson
wrote:



I will call the title insurance company today, to see if they'll
compensate me for my $2,000 loss - but - since it's not actually
mentioned in the paperwork, I doubt it's something they deal with.

So, now I'm making plans for buying a new tank, and putting it in
myself.


What loss? I don't see you having a loss. You bought the house and
land it sits on. If the guy across the street happened to be parked
in your driveway on the day you closed, would you get to keep his car?
The tank, if owned by the propane company, happens to be on the land
you don't get ownership. This is something that should have been
resolved to your satisfaction before closing.

I don't see the title company getting involved. Would they help you
if the previous owner left the refrigerator No, that is not covered
under title insurance. It only covers real property against claims,
liens, and that type of thing.

I might have missed it. Is there some reason you
don't just keep hiring the existing company to
fill your propane? What's the big ownership
question? Are they far too expensive?

..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 9/27/2013 8:18 AM, Alex Gunderson wrote:
On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 04:48:23 -0400, noname wrote:

Tell the owner of the tank to come and get their tank.
Buy a new tank from a different propane supplier.

That's exactly what I'm leaning toward.

To that end, I had a long talk with the propane
company sales & technical support.

This is preliminary, but this is what I'm assessing:

1. Propane company will deliver a new empty tank
2. Tank must (now) be 25' from all structures
3. Trench needs to be 12" deep (if not driven over)
4. Tank must have a reinforced concrete pad
5. Pad must have tie-down eyebolts or lag bolts
6. Conduit must have metal wire running alongside
7. Both risers must be plastic or steel
8. Propane company will install & own the 3 regulators
9. Propane company will deliver tank (but I can own it)
10. Propane company will install & own tie-down straps
11. Propane company will connect, own, & inspect connections
12. Propane company will deliver fuel

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 04:55:06 -0700, bob haller wrote:

the OP will find a must inspec date stamped into the tank,
after that no propane supplier will legally be able to fill it....

Large tanks will outlast all of us, and then some; so I
seriously doubt there is an "expiration date" on them.

I dont know how they inspect such large tanks

When I first called the propane company years ago, they
said I had to pay for an inspection before they would fill it
(since I told them it was my tank).

I wasn't home at the time the inspector did his work, so I
don't know what he did, but, he reconnected the tank and
shut off and tagged the kitchen grill because it was missing
an element (which I subsequently replaced).

I suspect (but need to confirm) that these large tanks won't
be filled if they don't meet regulations, which the propane
company has under control.

So I suspect inspection isn't a problem for the homewowner
for these large aboveground tanks.

Are you unhappy with the present company?
Why discuss all the work to change tanks,
if the existing tank is in acceptable shape?

..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 9/27/2013 8:07 AM, Alex Gunderson wrote:

All the companies out here in California will fill only two
types of tanks:

1. Theirs
2. Yours

So, I called the propane company, anonymously, and asked
how much it would cost to have a new tank put in that I pay for.

If I buy the tank from them for roughly $1/gallon of capacity,
they will deliver it and strap it down and put in the three
regulators.

It's my responsibility to put in the reinforced concrete pad,
tie-down attachment points, 12" trench, yellow conduit, & two
stainless steel risers.

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 05:01:02 -0700, bob haller wrote:

http://www.ncagr.gov/standard/LP/LPg....htm#Delivery5

Nice find!
That North Carolina web site says what I believe California does also:

Q: Why wont another propane company fill the tank at my house?
A: (North Carolina) state law prohibits one company from filling a tank
belonging to another company. You may shop around for the best price
(of propane) if you own the tank yourself, and that is the return
you get for your investment of buying a tank.

It seems to be the same out here.

The propane company will gladly fill their tank or my tank, but not someone
elses' tank.

On Friday, September 27, 2013 8:34:27 AM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 12:01:06 +0000 (UTC), Alex Gunderson

wrote:







I will call the title insurance company today, to see if they'll

compensate me for my $2,000 loss - but - since it's not actually

mentioned in the paperwork, I doubt it's something they deal with.



So, now I'm making plans for buying a new tank, and putting it in

myself.





What loss? I don't see you having a loss. You bought the house and

land it sits on. If the guy across the street happened to be parked

in your driveway on the day you closed, would you get to keep his car?

The tank, if owned by the propane company, happens to be on the land

you don't get ownership. This is something that should have been

resolved to your satisfaction before closing.



I don't see the title company getting involved. Would they help you

if the previous owner left the refrigerator No, that is not covered

under title insurance. It only covers real property against claims,

liens, and that type of thing.

+1

On Thursday, September 26, 2013 11:35:42 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 23:56:06 +0000 (UTC), Alex Gunderson

wrote:



I realize this is a legal question but has anyone here had this happen.

Any advice?



1. Bought a house, as is, in 2010, which came with a 1,000 gallon propane tank attached.

2. Entered into agreement with fuel company "1" for fuel in 2010.

3. No tank rental is paid to fuel company 1 because it's not their tank

4. Recently a workman (inspecting the tank because of a new BBQ) mentioned that company 2 owns the tank

5. Company 2 was recently bought by company 1.



Nothing more has happened, but, who owns that tank?



I feel "I" own it by virtue of multiple circumstances (but I'm not a lawyer!):

a. I bought the house and everything attached to it

b. I never signed an agreement with company 2

c. Company 2 abandoned that tank long ago (IMHO)



I suspect, if company 1 wants to assert ownership of that tank, they could say:

A. Company 2 originally owned the tank

B. Company 2 still owns that tank

C. Therefore, company 1 (who owns company 2) owns that tank.



Have you ever been in this situation?

What advice do you have for me?



TIA



You can be pretty sure that you don't own it. From the scenario you

describe, probably No 1 owns it since they bought #2.



Your opinion does not matter. You cannot prove it was abandoned

I doubt an abandonment claim would work too, but without knowing
the state laws on the subject, who knows. If it meets the terms
of the law, I don't think it would be hard to prove. The fact
that it's been sitting there, out in the open for X years and
the company who owns it has done nothing, is obvious. But the
specifics of the law are what will count.






and

unless you have a bill of sale that the previous owner of the house

owned the tank, you did not buy it.

That's not true either. If the former owner owned the tank,
then he owns it now, whether he has a bill of sale or not.
It would be easier to prove that he owns it with such a
document, but the lack thereof doesn't change who does or
doesn't own it.





On top of all that, propane

companies are notoriously sleazy when it comes to filling tanks if it

is not their tank. Some state laws may possibly come into play too,

at least they do here in CT. If a propane company does not own the

tank they are not allowed to fill it.

Apparently they questioned him as to who owned the tank and
he filled out an affidavit stating that he owned it.

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 05:01:02 -0700, bob haller wrote:

http://www.ncagr.gov/standard/LP/LPg....htm#Delivery5

Of great interest was the NEXT question in the list!

Q: When I buy a house, does the propane tank become mine?
A: In North Carolina, when a propane company sets a tank,
they keep ownership of it.

Then they go on to clarify:
"This is especially true for above ground tanks.
Buried tanks become the property of the homeowner
more often, but not always."

Apparently I might be able to check with the county that they filed
the proper forms (if California law is similar to North Carolina law).

"If the propane company wants to keep the tank, they have that right.
If they file a UCC-1 form with the county for a tank on the property,
then they have clear documentation that they intend to keep ownership
of that tank, even if the house sells and a disclosure statement does
not point out that the tank is not included in that sale."

And, maybe even if they filed, it, it might expire after a few years:
"The UCC-1 expires after a specified time period and must be renewed
to remain in effect."

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 05:01:02 -0700, bob haller wrote:

http://www.ncagr.gov/standard/LP/LPg....htm#Delivery5

This section was particularly useful:
"If the buyer makes it clear that they have made the effort to confirm
the status of fixtures, and if the propane tank and its contents were
not excluded, then they may have a legitimate claim of ownership should
the question come up."

I wonder if my "as is" discloser is enough on due diligence?

On Friday, September 27, 2013 8:41:20 AM UTC-4, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Are you unhappy with the present company?

Why discuss all the work to change tanks,

if the existing tank is in acceptable shape?



Stormin, that's what inquiring minds want to know.....
I'm confused here too. I asked why he was so concerned,
what the current issue was and he said:

"Because I want to line up my ducks.
Just in case they come to me, I don't want to say something stupid.
I just want to know where I stand, legally. "


Then later he laid out his intention to buy a new tank, pour a
new pad, etc and put it in. If it were me, I'd just continue
to use the existing tank. And if I could find the previous
owner, I'd contact them and ask who owned the tank.

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 04:48:23 -0400, noname
wrote:

On 09/26/2013 07:56 PM, Alex Gunderson wrote:
Have you ever been in this situation?
What advice do you have for me?

If the tank blows up and kills the neighbor's kid, will you still be
claiming ownership of the tank? I doubt it.

Tell the owner of the tank to come and get their tank.
Buy a new tank from a different propane supplier.

If they even will sell you one. Many will not so they have you
dependent on them for fuel. You will have to find one and have it
installed yourself in some areas. As mentioned before, propane
dealers can make used car salesmen and lawyers look good.

Hmm,
CA being earthquake prone place, reg. could be different regarding
stationary tanks. Anyway up here in Alberta I have a little cabin way
out in the wilderness but I have NG hook up. Gas company ran line to
this neck of wood in anticipation of people building cabins ahead of
time. We have power, NG, only water is depend on drilled well.