I realize this is a legal question but has anyone here had this happen.
Any advice?

1. Bought a house, as is, in 2010, which came with a 1,000 gallon propane tank attached.
2. Entered into agreement with fuel company "1" for fuel in 2010.
3. No tank rental is paid to fuel company 1 because it's not their tank
4. Recently a workman (inspecting the tank because of a new BBQ) mentioned that company 2 owns the tank
5. Company 2 was recently bought by company 1.

Nothing more has happened, but, who owns that tank?

I feel "I" own it by virtue of multiple circumstances (but I'm not a lawyer!):
a. I bought the house and everything attached to it
b. I never signed an agreement with company 2
c. Company 2 abandoned that tank long ago (IMHO)

I suspect, if company 1 wants to assert ownership of that tank, they could say:
A. Company 2 originally owned the tank
B. Company 2 still owns that tank
C. Therefore, company 1 (who owns company 2) owns that tank.

Have you ever been in this situation?
What advice do you have for me?

TIA

The tank may need perodic inspection in order to permit filling. So you mght need to add that to your question.

I do know the 20 pound propane tanks need a pressure test every so many years..

the tank is placed in a container covered with water. its then pressured to capacity.
if the container holding the tank has water spill out the tank is expanding too much and has failed inspection. at least this is my understanding of what was explained to me many years ago.....

of course the tank exploding etc is also a failure...

On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 17:10:08 -0700, bob haller wrote:

The tank may need perodic inspection in order to permit filling. So you
mght need to add that to your question.

Well, these 1,000 gallon tanks are above ground, and they're built
like cement outhouses, so the last thing on my mind is that the tank
is gonna explode.

Besides, the tank has a date stamp of 1999 so it is in fine shape.

I do know the 20 pound propane tanks need a pressure test every so many
years..

The company that fills the tank inspected it before entering into
the agreement with me.

the tank is placed in a container covered with water. its then pressured
to capacity.

There is no way you're going to take a one thousand gallon tank and
place it in a bucket of water. The thing is 15 feet long (or so).

of course the tank exploding etc is also a failure...

We have a better chance of winning the lottery than the tank suddenly
deciding to explode. So I'm not the least bit worried about safety.

I'm worried about ownership.

Alex Gunderson wrote:
On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 17:10:08 -0700, bob haller wrote:

The tank may need perodic inspection in order to permit filling. So you
mght need to add that to your question.

Well, these 1,000 gallon tanks are above ground, and they're built
like cement outhouses, so the last thing on my mind is that the tank
is gonna explode.

Besides, the tank has a date stamp of 1999 so it is in fine shape.

I do know the 20 pound propane tanks need a pressure test every so many
years..

The company that fills the tank inspected it before entering into
the agreement with me.

the tank is placed in a container covered with water. its then pressured
to capacity.

There is no way you're going to take a one thousand gallon tank and
place it in a bucket of water. The thing is 15 feet long (or so).

of course the tank exploding etc is also a failure...

We have a better chance of winning the lottery than the tank suddenly
deciding to explode. So I'm not the least bit worried about safety.

I'm worried about ownership.

Hmm,
Can't you contact previous owner? Wonder why you did not check about the
ownership(tank was rented, leased or what?) when you purchased the
house? The seller, buyer, real estate lawyer were not diligent in this
case, IMHO.

On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 19:58:37 -0600, Tony Hwang wrote:
The seller, buyer, real estate lawyer were not diligent in this case,

There are no lawyers involved when you buy a house in California.
When you buy as is, you don't even bother with a home inspection out here.

It's not the real estate agent's responsibility.
And, the buyer buys title insurance for this purpose.

Come to think of it. I wonder if my title insurance covers this?

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 11:16:37 +0000 (UTC), Alex Gunderson
wrote in Re Who
actually owns this 1,000 gallon propane tank?:

On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 19:58:37 -0600, Tony Hwang wrote:
The seller, buyer, real estate lawyer were not diligent in this case,

There are no lawyers involved when you buy a house in California.
When you buy as is, you don't even bother with a home inspection out here.

I used to have a R.E. license in Calif, and from what you have
written, here is my take on the situation.

a) If the previous property owner owned the tank, then you now own
the tank, because it is part of the real estate, being an attached
appurtenance to the house.

b) If the previous owner did not own the tank, (e.g. it was owned by
the gas company-A ) then the gas company owns it.

c) When gas company-A was bought by gas company-B, then company-B
became the new owner of the tank, assuming company-B bought all the
assets of company-A (and not just it's name).

It's not the real estate agent's responsibility.
And, the buyer buys title insurance for this purpose.

Come to think of it. I wonder if my title insurance covers this?

I doubt it, but it's worth a try.

Let us know how it turns out.
--
Web based forums are like subscribing to 10 different newspapers
and having to visit 10 different news stands to pickup each one.
Email list-server groups and USENET are like having all of those
newspapers delivered to your door every morning.

On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 23:56:06 +0000 (UTC), Alex Gunderson
wrote:

I realize this is a legal question but has anyone here had this happen.
Any advice?

1. Bought a house, as is, in 2010, which came with a 1,000 gallon propane tank attached.
2. Entered into agreement with fuel company "1" for fuel in 2010.
3. No tank rental is paid to fuel company 1 because it's not their tank
4. Recently a workman (inspecting the tank because of a new BBQ) mentioned that company 2 owns the tank
5. Company 2 was recently bought by company 1.

Nothing more has happened, but, who owns that tank?

I feel "I" own it by virtue of multiple circumstances (but I'm not a lawyer!):
a. I bought the house and everything attached to it

Not likely. The person selling it didn't have the right to sell what
wasn't his. You're in possession of stolen property. ;-)

b. I never signed an agreement with company 2

Doesn't matter.

c. Company 2 abandoned that tank long ago (IMHO)

YO isn't worth much.

I suspect, if company 1 wants to assert ownership of that tank, they could say:
A. Company 2 originally owned the tank
B. Company 2 still owns that tank
C. Therefore, company 1 (who owns company 2) owns that tank.

Yes.

Have you ever been in this situation?
What advice do you have for me?

Shut up. Maybe they'll never figure it out.

On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 20:23:03 -0400, krw wrote:

You're in possession of stolen property.

I understand your point.
But, what about "abandoned" property?


b. I never signed an agreement with company 2
Doesn't matter.

I guess that's because you're saying company 2 still
owns the tank so it doesn't matter that they left it
on my property, connected to the house, for the past
few years?

Maybe they'll never figure it out.

Or, maybe they'll figure it's not worth losing a customer
over a $1000 tank?

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 01:41:04 +0000 (UTC), Alex Gunderson
wrote:

On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 20:23:03 -0400, krw wrote:

You're in possession of stolen property.

I understand your point.
But, what about "abandoned" property?


b. I never signed an agreement with company 2
Doesn't matter.

I guess that's because you're saying company 2 still
owns the tank so it doesn't matter that they left it
on my property, connected to the house, for the past
few years?

Maybe they'll never figure it out.

Or, maybe they'll figure it's not worth losing a customer
over a $1000 tank?

If they decide it's their tank tell them fine, they can have it as
soon as the pay the storage fees. Even a nominal $10 a day is going
to cost them some bucks.

On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 22:37:58 -0700, Ashton Crusher wrote:

If they decide it's their tank tell them fine, they can have it as soon as
the pay the storage fees. Even a nominal $10 a day is going to cost them
some bucks.

It's funny you say that because my wife suggested we charge them rent!

The problem, of course, is that I need to have them deliver the propane.

I haven't done the research lately, but they were the cheapest of the
four or five companies that I can buy propane from out here.

And, as they buy each other up, their numbers are dwindling.

I think they'll pick up the tank for free though - but then I'm left
with buying a brand new tank.

Luckily, they're not too expensive, about a dollar a gallon, so, it would
cost about a thousand gallons. I will have to put in a concrete reinforced
pad and earthquake straps and I'll need to trench it since I'd move it
elsewhere - so I've been looking up all that separately.

EDIT: Plus it looks like I need a set of high pressure and low pressure
regulators. One each at the tank, and one at the house.

On 9/27/2013 4:48 AM, Alex Gunderson wrote:
On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 22:37:58 -0700, Ashton Crusher wrote:

If they decide it's their tank tell them fine, they can have it as soon as
the pay the storage fees. Even a nominal $10 a day is going to cost them
some bucks.

It's funny you say that because my wife suggested we charge them rent!

The problem, of course, is that I need to have them deliver the propane.

I haven't done the research lately, but they were the cheapest of the
four or five companies that I can buy propane from out here.

And, as they buy each other up, their numbers are dwindling.

I think they'll pick up the tank for free though - but then I'm left
with buying a brand new tank.

Luckily, they're not too expensive, about a dollar a gallon, so, it would
cost about a thousand gallons. I will have to put in a concrete reinforced
pad and earthquake straps and I'll need to trench it since I'd move it
elsewhere - so I've been looking up all that separately.

look into burying it. i did that so i didn't have to look at it all the
time. cost a bit more though, and you have to have additional permits
and the right kind of ground to do so.

EDIT: Plus it looks like I need a set of high pressure and low pressure
regulators. One each at the tank, and one at the house.

On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 22:37:58 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:




If they decide it's their tank tell them fine, they can have it as
soon as the pay the storage fees. Even a nominal $10 a day is going
to cost them some bucks.

Wow, that's funny. I can hear them laughing all the way over here.
They will counter with a tank rental bill, of course.

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 08:22:27 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Wow, that's funny. I can hear them laughing all the way over here.
They will counter with a tank rental bill, of course.

Just to be clear, I have no intention of asking *them* for rental
and, I certainly hope they have just as little intention of asking
*me* for the back rent.

In my case, back rent would likely exceed the cost of the tank,
so, I would just tell them to take their tank back.

Then I'd put in a new tank, but, at least I'd have clear and
free title to that new tank.

On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 22:37:58 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 01:41:04 +0000 (UTC), Alex Gunderson
wrote:

On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 20:23:03 -0400, krw wrote:

You're in possession of stolen property.

I understand your point.
But, what about "abandoned" property?


b. I never signed an agreement with company 2
Doesn't matter.

I guess that's because you're saying company 2 still
owns the tank so it doesn't matter that they left it
on my property, connected to the house, for the past
few years?

Maybe they'll never figure it out.

Or, maybe they'll figure it's not worth losing a customer
over a $1000 tank?

If they decide it's their tank tell them fine, they can have it as
soon as the pay the storage fees. Even a nominal $10 a day is going
to cost them some bucks.

That sounds like fun but it's not going to work. It's more likely to
get someone ****ed off.

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 01:41:04 +0000 (UTC), Alex Gunderson
wrote:

On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 20:23:03 -0400, krw wrote:

You're in possession of stolen property.

I understand your point.
But, what about "abandoned" property?

It's not.

b. I never signed an agreement with company 2
Doesn't matter.

I guess that's because you're saying company 2 still
owns the tank so it doesn't matter that they left it
on my property, connected to the house, for the past
few years?

IMO, no.

Maybe they'll never figure it out.

Or, maybe they'll figure it's not worth losing a customer
over a $1000 tank?

If they do figure it out, they'll likely only start charging you rent
from that day. I wouldn't expect them to just give you the tank,
though.

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 15:13:31 -0400, krw wrote:

If they do figure it out, they'll likely only start charging you rent from
that day. I wouldn't expect them to just give you the tank, though.

I think the two negative things that would happen are both
surmountable, so, it wouldn't be catastrophic.

One is they could charge rent.
The other is that I couldn't shop around to another supplier.

On the other hand, rent isn't all that bad (many people rent); and,
on the same other hand, the company I chose is generally the cheapest.

http://www.southskyline.org/skyprop.html

On Sat, 28 Sep 2013 02:43:13 +0000 (UTC), Alex Gunderson
wrote:

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 15:13:31 -0400, krw wrote:

If they do figure it out, they'll likely only start charging you rent from
that day. I wouldn't expect them to just give you the tank, though.

I think the two negative things that would happen are both
surmountable, so, it wouldn't be catastrophic.

So you're finally coming to the obvious conclusion.

One is they could charge rent.

From that day on. It would be difficult to back-charge you, without
an agreement in hand.

The other is that I couldn't shop around to another supplier.

Right. They would have no leverage. They have no knowledge, now, an
even better situation for you to be in. Keep it that way. STFU.

On the other hand, rent isn't all that bad (many people rent); and,
on the same other hand, the company I chose is generally the cheapest.

http://www.southskyline.org/skyprop.html

Why are you so paranoid?

On Thursday, September 26, 2013 9:41:04 PM UTC-4, Alex Gunderson wrote:
But, what about "abandoned" property?

You are what's wrong with the country today.

All you are doing is trying to weasel your way into a "free" tank because you don't want to pay for tank rental.

Deep down you know who it belongs to, and that you should be paying the rental fee. It's only fair.

Either the previous homeowner or you were supposed to call and transfer that tank account to your name. Obviously the previous homeowner didn't care. Rather than do the upright and honest thing you kept your mouth shut.

You've had that tank rent free for however many years. Time to do the honest thing, own up, and pay the long-overdue bill.

On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 06:24:30 -0700, dennisgauge wrote:

You are what's wrong with the country today.

All you are doing is trying to weasel your way into a "free" tank because
you don't want to pay for tank rental.

I do understand where you're coming from ... but also answer
this question.

Say you bought a house, and you were told by all the professionals
that the driveway on your property was yours. You've been using
said driveway all these years - but - suddenly you find out that
the cement company wasn't paid for that driveway by the previous
owner. Legally, perhaps, the statute of limitations for liens has
passed - but - as you said - deep down - you really know that the
cement company wasn't paid - so, what do you do? Do you pay him?

Similarly, say that the company that put in the pool heater wasn't
paid. Or the one that put in the pool motors. Nowhere in the title
did it say that the pool motors weren't yours. The company that
put in the pool motors had plenty of time to pick up their motors.
But they didn't. And you always thought they were "your" pool
motors. Now, you find out, years later, that the pool motors
weren't fully paid for. What do you do? You, of course, would
give back those motors and the pool heater. Right?

Lastly, say that the $1,000 built-in beer fridge at the BBQ was
used by you for all these years. Again, there is no label on that
fridge; you think it's yours by virtue of you buying the house.
Let's even say you've had a beer company DELIVER beer almost
monthly to "your" beer fridge. Then, again many years later,
your neighbor (who has been there all along and KNOWS where you
live) suddenly tells you that it's HIS beer fridge that is in
your BBQ after all. He even produces a bill of sale that says
he bought that beer fridge many years ago. What do you do?

Do you give your neighbor the beer fridge?

On Monday, September 30, 2013 9:24:30 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thursday, September 26, 2013 9:41:04 PM UTC-4, Alex Gunderson wrote:

But, what about "abandoned" property?



You are what's wrong with the country today.



All you are doing is trying to weasel your way into a "free" tank because you don't want to pay for tank rental.







Deep down you know who it belongs to, and that you should be paying the rental fee. It's only fair.



Either the previous homeowner or you were supposed to call and transfer that tank account to your name. Obviously the previous homeowner didn't care. Rather than do the upright and honest thing you kept your mouth shut.



That's a big assumption and I doubt it's correct. First,
it would be very stupid for the previous owner to not call
up the gas company and tell them to terminate service. The
previous owner could continue to get billed for gas, so
it's very likely they did call them up. Second, if they
didn't, then why didn't the previous gas company just show
up and continue to fill the tank? After they sent a bill or
two to the former owner, something would have happened.?
It looks more to me like something fell through the cracks
at the gas company.

As far as Alex being responsible, I'd say he has some
responsibility now, because the service guy from the gas
company told him that the tank shows up in their database
as belonging to the previous gas company. This is 3 years
later. But what exactly
do you think he should do? Call up his current company
that now has bought out the previous company, so they may
own the tank, and force the issue? A representative
of the company knows about it. What more is he supposed to
do? He's not hiding the tank or lying. For one thing,
all we know is what a service tech told
him. Presumably that service guy will do whatever it is
that he's supposed to do. Maybe he'll hear from the gas
company. If he doesn't, I sure wouldn't go forcing the issue
either.

And his assertion that it could be abandoned property is
a valid issue. It doesn't make Alex a bad person. It's like
if a tree on my property that's healthy falls onto my neighbors
shed and crushes it during a wind storm. I, like many people, would
feel some moral responsibility, since it was my tree.
But the law says otherwise. Unless the tree was diseased, dead,
etc and I knew about it, etc, then I'm not responsible.
The law sets the rules we play by. And if his tank meets the
law for abandoned property, then it's his tank now.




You've had that tank rent free for however many years. Time to do the honest thing, own up, and pay the long-overdue bill.

What bill? He had no contract with the previous company.
The former owner did. If they want to collect past rental
fees, they would have to go after the former owner, not Alex.
Alex had no say in negotiating or signing that contract. For
one thing, it's clear from the thread that Alex would prefer
to BUY a tank. If the gas company had presented him with
a bill 3 years ago for rental, he could have said, "I want
to buy it, how much?" And if he couldn't come to terms with
that company, he could have told them, he's switching to
another company, etc. You can't enforce a contract where no
contract ever existed.

On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 08:50:05 -0700, wrote:

The law sets the rules we play by. And if his tank meets the law for
abandoned property, then it's his tank now.

Thanks for understanding.

The rules for establishing ownership should be clear, especially
for something as common as an above-ground propane tank.

I do have some more information. The company that made the tank is
Roy E. Hanson Jr. Mfg, 213-747-7514. They sent me an email stating
that the serial number matches a tank sold to a THIRD propane
commercial entity.

I called that third entity, and they're still in business (they
said they've been in business for 85 years in this area), and they
never owned that tank.

Hmmm... makes no sense.

To confirm, the manufacturer told me I should plug in the national
registry number into a database at http://www.nationalboard.org

Apparently, all propane tanks have a six-digit national board number
in addition to the serial number of any number of digits.

The manufacturer said California doesn't require this number, but
many other states do, so, they put it on all propane tanks they
make.

The only problem is I can't find the national board lookup
mechanism, and nobody answers their phone in Columbus Ohio:
614.888.8320

So, I'm working the details as we speak.

On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 08:50:05 -0700, wrote:

You can't enforce a contract where no contract ever
existed.

And, in this case, the tank was sold by the original
manufacturer to a THIRD propane company!

I called that third propane company, who has been in
business in the area for 85 years. They did NOT ever
service my residence!

Of course, they still could have originally owned the
tank and sold it to someone but they have no record of
owning that tank.

I finally got a human at the https://www.nationalboard.org
registry public affairs department:
National Board Public Affairs Phone: 614.431.3204

They told me there is no way I can search for the datasheet
on that tank without establishing a relationship with them,
but, they asked me for my national registry code plus the
serial number and they said they'd let me know what information
is on the registration for original and subsequent owners
for that specific tank (plus I can buy the datasheet).

However, they said only the original owner is likely to
be on the tank datasheet, unless someone updated their
database voluntarily after the fact.

Does he have to shoot the tank, and then
shovel some dirt on the tank?

I've heard that in NYS, if the tank has a
company logo, that other companies will
refuse to fill it.

I advise you to very gently sand off any
rust. Prime with grey primer, then paint
the tank with white enamel paint, and
don't say anything to anyone about it,
like K says.


..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 9/26/2013 8:23 PM, wrote:

Have you ever been in this situation?
What advice do you have for me?

Shut up. Maybe they'll never figure it out.

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 08:33:35 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

I've heard that in NYS, if the tank has a
company logo, that other companies will
refuse to fill it.

Here, in CA, they will only fill their tank or your
tank, but not someone else's tank.

There is no logo on this tank.

On 9/26/2013 7:23 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 23:56:06 +0000 (UTC), Alex Gunderson
wrote:

I realize this is a legal question but has anyone here had this happen.
Any advice?

1. Bought a house, as is, in 2010, which came with a 1,000 gallon propane tank attached.
2. Entered into agreement with fuel company "1" for fuel in 2010.
3. No tank rental is paid to fuel company 1 because it's not their tank

Also consider that no "rental" is paid because you are buying gas from
them. I contracted with a propane company to place a tank on our
property solely for the purpose of providing LPG to heat the swimming
pool. No rental was ever charged... UNTIL... we severely cut back on
the use of the heater and were not constantly filling it. They then
instituted what they called a "drayage" charge, charging us $x.xx per month.

"Fired" that company and new one brought in a similar tank with no
drayage charge. Eventually got rid of pool and heater but next door
neighbor installed a pool and needed propane for it so they moved it
next door. He STILL has it and pays only for the gas he uses.

Why would you want to "own" it. If you own it, you're responsible for
maintenance. If you stop using the gas, what are you going to do? Plant
petunias in it after you cut it in half?

On Friday, September 27, 2013 9:13:49 AM UTC-4, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 9/26/2013 7:23 PM, wrote:

On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 23:56:06 +0000 (UTC), Alex Gunderson

wrote:



I realize this is a legal question but has anyone here had this happen.

Any advice?



1. Bought a house, as is, in 2010, which came with a 1,000 gallon propane tank attached.

2. Entered into agreement with fuel company "1" for fuel in 2010.

3. No tank rental is paid to fuel company 1 because it's not their tank



Also consider that no "rental" is paid because you are buying gas from

them.

But he wasn't buying gas from the company he now believes
owns the tank for years after he bought the house. He used
a different company.


I contracted with a propane company to place a tank on our

property solely for the purpose of providing LPG to heat the swimming

pool. No rental was ever charged... UNTIL... we severely cut back on

the use of the heater and were not constantly filling it. They then

instituted what they called a "drayage" charge, charging us $x.xx per month.



That makes sense.



"Fired" that company and new one brought in a similar tank with no

drayage charge. Eventually got rid of pool and heater but next door

neighbor installed a pool and needed propane for it so they moved it

next door. He STILL has it and pays only for the gas he uses.



Why would you want to "own" it. If you own it, you're responsible for

maintenance.

I guess because he says the current company would charge $15/mth
if he were renting it from them. He says a new tank costs $1000.



If you stop using the gas, what are you going to do? Plant

petunias in it after you cut it in half?

If he's using it for heat and cooking and he knows he's in
an area where he's very unlikely to change fuels, then I
don't see stopping gas usage as being an issue.
How long these
tanks last and what you do with them when they have to
be disposed of, could be an issue. I would
suspect that the gas company has answers to all that.
I would not be surprised to find that if you call a gas
company and get one of their tanks, as either rental or
buying it, that they would take away the old tank, probably
for a charge. But saving $1000 every 6 years, I'd say
he's still going to come out way ahead.

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 06:46:09 -0700, wrote:

If he's using it for heat and cooking and he knows he's in an area where
he's very unlikely to change fuels, then I don't see stopping gas usage as
being an issue.

It's not. There's (almost) no chance (well, it's never zero) that they'll
run a pipe way out here for an alternative fuel.

Electricity, I guess, is the other option - but at the cost of electricity
in California being something like 50 cents a kwh (top tier), that's not
going to work out mathematically (without adding a $50K solar investment
to the mix anyway).

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 08:13:49 -0500, Unquestionably Confused wrote:

If you stop using the gas, what are you going to do?

That's an interesting question, as I hadn't considered any other
option but propane.

I guess, if I stop using gas, my options a
- For heating: Use a wood burner instead
- For hot water: Use electricity
- For the stove: Use electricity
- For the pool: Don't heat it
- For the BBQ: Use a portable propane tank
- For the dryer: Use electricity
- In which case, I'd add solar panels (for sure!)

But, at this point, I don't think it's reasonable to think I'll
invest in switching over all that equipment to alternative fuels.

In article ,
Alex Gunderson wrote:

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 08:13:49 -0500, Unquestionably Confused wrote:

If you stop using the gas, what are you going to do?

That's an interesting question, as I hadn't considered any other
option but propane.

I guess, if I stop using gas, my options a
- For heating: Use a wood burner instead
- For hot water: Use electricity
- For the stove: Use electricity
- For the pool: Don't heat it
Don't know about the tree situation at your place, but one of the
few places I have seen where solar seems to work better than most
alternatives is the pool heater.
--
America is at that awkward stage. It's too late
to work within the system, but too early to shoot
the *******s."-- Claire Wolfe

On 9/27/2013 8:06 AM, Kurt Ullman wrote:
In article ,
Alex Gunderson wrote:

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 08:13:49 -0500, Unquestionably Confused wrote:

If you stop using the gas, what are you going to do?

That's an interesting question, as I hadn't considered any other
option but propane.

I guess, if I stop using gas, my options a
- For heating: Use a wood burner instead
- For hot water: Use electricity
- For the stove: Use electricity
- For the pool: Don't heat it
Don't know about the tree situation at your place, but one of the
few places I have seen where solar seems to work better than most
alternatives is the pool heater.


you probably mean solar hot water, not solar electric. you'd need a
massive array to do solar electric for an electric pool heater.

On Friday, September 27, 2013 11:06:14 AM UTC-4, Kurt Ullman wrote:
In article ,

Alex Gunderson wrote:



On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 08:13:49 -0500, Unquestionably Confused wrote:



If you stop using the gas, what are you going to do?



That's an interesting question, as I hadn't considered any other

option but propane.



I guess, if I stop using gas, my options a

- For heating: Use a wood burner instead

- For hot water: Use electricity

- For the stove: Use electricity

- For the pool: Don't heat it

Don't know about the tree situation at your place, but one of the

few places I have seen where solar seems to work better than most

alternatives is the pool heater.

--

Good grief, yes! Solar is far more cost effective than
any pool heating alternative. In CA you would think solar would be
the way to go for a pool heater. I'm actually surprised
I don't see them here in NJ. The main downside is that it
takes a fairly large array, ballpark about the size of the
pool surface area. So, you either need roof area for that,
are OK with how it looks, or need to ground mount it. But
compared to say nat gas, it's just about free to run. And
those gas heaters are 200 - 400K btus, a real disaster.

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 11:06:14 -0400, Kurt Ullman wrote:

one of the few places I have seen where solar seems to
work better than most alternatives is the pool heater.

I have a solar pool heater. It's great!
I also have a propane fueled pool heater (I use it for the spa).
It works FAST and it works at night!

"Alex Gunderson" wrote in message


But, at this point, I don't think it's reasonable to
think I'll invest in switching over all that equipment to
alternative fuels.

Out of curiosity, what are you paying for gas?

I used Amerigas for a number of years...until I noticed (wife pays the
bills) that they were charging $5.25/gal. That was 4-5 years ago. I
switched to a smaller company, they charged $3.25. They were bought out by
Amerigas so I switched to Ferrell 2-3 years ago; they started out at about
$3.25 are now $5.00+.

IME, all the gas companies low ball you initially, rapidly bump it up
ridiculously.


--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 15:21:39 -0400, dadiOH wrote:

Out of curiosity, what are you paying for gas?

I'm in a propane-buyers group cooperative.

Here are the prices, each month, for the past year:
http://www.southskyline.org/images/S...09-08_zoom.gif

How does that compare with your cooperative?

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 15:21:39 -0400, dadiOH wrote:

Out of curiosity, what are you paying for gas?

BTW, I found an old chart, for 2010, where the prices were higher:
http://www.southskyline.org/images/S...10-11_zoom.gif

On Thursday, September 26, 2013 7:56:06 PM UTC-4, Alex Gunderson wrote:
I realize this is a legal question but has anyone here had this happen.

Any advice?



1. Bought a house, as is, in 2010, which came with a 1,000 gallon propane tank attached.

2. Entered into agreement with fuel company "1" for fuel in 2010.

3. No tank rental is paid to fuel company 1 because it's not their tank

4. Recently a workman (inspecting the tank because of a new BBQ) mentioned that company 2 owns the tank

How could he know for sure, unless he works for company #2?
It's possible company #2's name is on it, but maybe the
previous owner bought and paid for it. Did the sales contract
say anything, one way or the other? If I was selling a house
with a propane tank, I'd be sure to spell out if it's included
or not, and if not, who actually owns it.





5. Company 2 was recently bought by company 1.



Nothing more has happened, but, who owns that tank?



I feel "I" own it by virtue of multiple circumstances (but I'm not a lawyer!):

a. I bought the house and everything attached to it

I'm not a lawyer either, but I'm pretty sure you can't
sell what you don't own. Meaning if the tank was in fact
the property of a company and the previous owner did not
own it, then by selling the house they can't transfer ownership
to you just because they sold the house.



b. I never signed an agreement with company 2

But the previous owner probably did, if it in fact
really is their tank. So far, all you have is a workman
saying it belonged to company #2. Isn't there any
identification on it? When you chose company #1 to be
your gas provider, I would think they would ask if you
have a tank, need a tank, etc. And if you have a tank,
I would think they would come out and inspect it before
delivering gas to make sure it's safe. You would think
during that process the issue of it being company #2's
tank would have come up, but I guess not.





c. Company 2 abandoned that tank long ago (IMHO)


If it really is their tank, I doubt that is going to work.
Not if they have a signed contract with the previous owner
that lays out the terms of the lease and protects the
company's rights like they normally would.




I suspect, if company 1 wants to assert ownership of that tank, they could say:

A. Company 2 originally owned the tank

B. Company 2 still owns that tank

C. Therefore, company 1 (who owns company 2) owns that tank.


That sounds perfectly reasonable and right to me.





Have you ever been in this situation?

What advice do you have for me?



TIA

Why are you even worried about it? Unless someone is
now demanding you pay for the tank, what's the problem?

Another possible angle, if you can still contact the seller,
ask them who's tank it is. They may have bought it, or had it
on lease, then bought it, etc. And again, anything in the
contract about the tank? If it says the tank is included and
someone shows up saying it's their tank and can prove it, then
you'd have a claim against the seller. But if the contract is
silent on the issue, I doubt you have a case.

On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 17:25:52 -0700, wrote:

How could he know for sure, unless he works for company #2?

I think they go by serial number but I'm not sure.

It's possible company #2's name is on it, but maybe the previous owner
bought and paid for it.

Actually, there is no name on the tank other than the manufacturer
on the nameplate and a serial number and the poundage figures, and things
like that.

Did the sales contract say anything, one way or the other?

Nothing about the tank. It said the property was "as is".

If I was selling a house with a propane tank, I'd be sure to
spell out if it's included or not, and if not, who actually owns it.

I understand. When I first entered into the agreement with company 1
for the propane delivery, they asked for a bill of sale. I didn't have
one so they accepted an affidavit that I wrote saying I owned it.

I never thought anything of it at the time, but that's all I really
have that "specifically" mentions the tank ownership.

I'm not a lawyer either, but I'm pretty sure you can't sell what you don't
own. Meaning if the tank was in fact the property of a company and the
previous owner did not own it, then by selling the house they can't
transfer ownership to you just because they sold the house.

OK. This makes sense.
But, did company 2 "abandon" the tank?
Sort of like a ship at sea is abandoned and then anyone can have it?


Isn't there any identification on it?

Yes. There is a nameplate with a serial number, a date of manufacturer,
a company of manufacturer, the weight, and a bunch of other poundage figures.

I would think they would come out and inspect it before delivering gas to
make sure it's safe.

They did that years ago. I don't think the issue is safety.
The tank is in great shape. It will outlast the United States, let alone
the house, and me.

You would think during that process the issue of it
being company #2's tank would have come up, but I guess not.

I don't see how, from just the serial number, company 1 would know
anything about company 2. All they knew (and all I knew) at the time
was that it certainly wasn't company 1's tank.

So they've been filling it for years.

Not if they have a signed contract with the previous owner that lays out
the terms of the lease and protects the company's rights like they
normally would.

Well, if they do have a signed lease, that would be interesting.
I don't know that this exists. I never once spoke to the previous owner.
I never even met them. They essentially walked away from the property.

Why are you even worried about it?
Because I want to line up my ducks.
Just in case they come to me, I don't want to say something stupid.
I just want to know where I stand, legally.
I do realize this is a home-repair group - but - I was hoping someone
would have experience with this, first hand - and then could provide
advice.

I do appreciate the help as I know you don't have to advise me.

On 9/26/2013 8:49 PM, Alex Gunderson wrote:
On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 17:25:52 -0700, wrote:
....

I understand. When I first entered into the agreement with company 1
for the propane delivery, they asked for a bill of sale. I didn't have
one so they accepted an affidavit that I wrote saying I owned it.

I never thought anything of it at the time, but that's all I really
have that "specifically" mentions the tank ownership.

....

So they've been filling it for years.

....

I just want to know where I stand, legally.
I do realize this is a home-repair group - but - I was hoping someone
would have experience with this, first hand - and then could provide
advice.

I do appreciate the help as I know you don't have to advise me.

The answer is there's no way for anyone here to know -- we're not in
possession of facts not available (sorta' goes w/o saying but in law
everything 'pends on the specifics).

In all likelihood the case is as outlined previously presuming that the
tank doesn't go back beyond the even the other company you do know of.

I don't think you can determine any real definitive answer to the
question w/o further data either confirming as you say from a S/N
whether the tank did come from one or the other companies in question if
they have such records and can therefrom produce previous history.

Clearly you own the property in question; whether the tank was the
previous occupant's to transfer is in doubt apparently so there is no
way to rely on that as has been noted previously as well.

All in all, unless a phone call to the alternate company can shed light
on whether it was there I suspect the cost involved in establishing the
actual pedigree would probably exceed the value of the tank.

If it hasn't been an issue so far, I'd suspect it's unlikely to become
one in the future.

--

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 00:24:08 -0500, dpb wrote:

Clearly you own the property in question; whether the tank was the
previous occupant's to transfer is in doubt

After googling and googling and googling, I've come to the
belated realization that this is a relatively common situation.

I couldn't find any California statutes, so all I have is anecdotal
forum and usenet situations, all of which have their myriad details,
but it seems like the tank belongs to whomever can prove they own it.

I went back to my title papers, and there is just no mention of the
tank. Since the serial number is presumably unique, I am slowly
realizing it's probably their tank, and not mine, as I have thought
all this time.

I will call the title insurance company today, to see if they'll
compensate me for my $2,000 loss - but - since it's not actually
mentioned in the paperwork, I doubt it's something they deal with.

So, now I'm making plans for buying a new tank, and putting it in
myself.

It looks like I'll need the following (based on new regulations
of distance from the house and earthquake resistance which had
grandfathered the original tank but don't apply to new):
* new 1,000 gallon propane tank *
* reinforced concrete pad with tie-down eyehooks or lag bolts *
* trench must be 12" deep minimum & 18" if driven over *
* underground yellow flexible conduit (25' minimum distance) *
* two galvanized steel risers at the tank *
* high pressure regulator at the tank for the house *
* low pressure regulator at the tank for the pool & BBQ *
* low pressure regulator at the house *

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 12:01:06 +0000 (UTC), Alex Gunderson
wrote:



I will call the title insurance company today, to see if they'll
compensate me for my $2,000 loss - but - since it's not actually
mentioned in the paperwork, I doubt it's something they deal with.

So, now I'm making plans for buying a new tank, and putting it in
myself.


What loss? I don't see you having a loss. You bought the house and
land it sits on. If the guy across the street happened to be parked
in your driveway on the day you closed, would you get to keep his car?
The tank, if owned by the propane company, happens to be on the land
you don't get ownership. This is something that should have been
resolved to your satisfaction before closing.

I don't see the title company getting involved. Would they help you
if the previous owner left the refrigerator No, that is not covered
under title insurance. It only covers real property against claims,
liens, and that type of thing.