On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 06:24:30 -0700, dennisgauge wrote:

You are what's wrong with the country today.

All you are doing is trying to weasel your way into a "free" tank because
you don't want to pay for tank rental.

I do understand where you're coming from ... but also answer
this question.

Say you bought a house, and you were told by all the professionals
that the driveway on your property was yours. You've been using
said driveway all these years - but - suddenly you find out that
the cement company wasn't paid for that driveway by the previous
owner. Legally, perhaps, the statute of limitations for liens has
passed - but - as you said - deep down - you really know that the
cement company wasn't paid - so, what do you do? Do you pay him?

Similarly, say that the company that put in the pool heater wasn't
paid. Or the one that put in the pool motors. Nowhere in the title
did it say that the pool motors weren't yours. The company that
put in the pool motors had plenty of time to pick up their motors.
But they didn't. And you always thought they were "your" pool
motors. Now, you find out, years later, that the pool motors
weren't fully paid for. What do you do? You, of course, would
give back those motors and the pool heater. Right?

Lastly, say that the $1,000 built-in beer fridge at the BBQ was
used by you for all these years. Again, there is no label on that
fridge; you think it's yours by virtue of you buying the house.
Let's even say you've had a beer company DELIVER beer almost
monthly to "your" beer fridge. Then, again many years later,
your neighbor (who has been there all along and KNOWS where you
live) suddenly tells you that it's HIS beer fridge that is in
your BBQ after all. He even produces a bill of sale that says
he bought that beer fridge many years ago. What do you do?

Do you give your neighbor the beer fridge?

On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 08:16:19 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

With the price of gas, I have to get a dime a mile for delivery.

You'd need more than a dime per mile because it's a felony to transport
propane without a hazmat license!

By the way, I think *everything* boils down to this:
http://www.sos.ca.gov/business/ucc/f...-statement.htm

One key distinction is the fact that propane tanks are considered
"personal property" and not "real property":
http://www.lawrenceyerkes.com/html/r...l-property.htm

Another key distinction is the 3-year rule for abandoned property:
http://answers.uslegal.com/abandoned-property/24744/

Here's a similar problem in Maryland (see posts #34 & #36):
http://forums.somd.com/life-southern...s-again-4.html

Here's a similar question for California with a complex answer:
http://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/re...p-1340149.html

On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 06:02:47 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

If it was on going business between homeowner and propane company, there
would be no claim filed. If my car was parked in the driveway at the time
of closing, would you now own it? Seems like a shaky premise here.

I do understand your point. But let me state mine with an example.

What would happen if an upside down abandoned car was on your
property, stripped to the bones (for arguments sake).

It was an eyesore, but, you bought the property - so you figured it
was your abandoned car - so you had the thing towed to the scrap
yard.

Now, almost five years later, a neighbor knocks on your door and
says that was HIS abandoned car that you sent to the junkyard.

That neighbor knew you owned the house; he knew it was his car;
he knew it and he says he lent it to the previous owner, at for
$100 a year, so the kids could play on that car.

Now he wants his car back, or worse yet, he wants you to pay
him for the $100 that this personal property was worth?

NOTE: This is the kind of reason that the 3 year abandonment
statute of limitations exists in the first place.

OK. Put yourself in my shoes.
Would you PAY him the $1,000 he says his car was worth?

On Saturday, September 28, 2013 2:31:15 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 28 Sep 2013 06:21:13 -0700 (PDT), "

wrote:



On Friday, September 27, 2013 10:44:39 PM UTC-4, wrote:

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 15:45:59 -0700 (PDT), bob haller



wrote:







its probably best to keep the tank at least half full, in case some day OP cant get it filled.



Then keep a low profile and hope its forgotten about. repainting the tank is probably a good idea, to fix rust and cover possible ownership questions.







when OP is ready to sell home expect lots of unpleasant questions.....







Why? The questions weren't asked when he bought the house. If asked,



"It must be mine, it was there when I bought the house and no one has



ever told me otherwise." No lies. He's probably blown that argument



now, though. ;-)



The part about "no one has ever told me otherwise" would be a lie.

He stated that a worker for the company was there couple days ago,

looked up the serial # of the tank on their database

and said that it shows up as being the tank

of Company X along his address as the location Company X was his the gas supplier to the former owner and has now been bought by the current company.



I meant before he opened his mouth. Let them tell him.



They did tell him without him asking. He said a service
guy was there to hook up a new grill and while there, he
looked up the serial # of the tank and told him it was
listed as being owned by the previous gas company, and
located at his address.






But otherwise, I think we're pretty much on the same page. No

need to go get a new tank, start asking too many questions, etc.

Just keep doing what he's been doing and see what, if anything happens

next.



He insists on making it far more difficult than it needs to be. If

the gas company puts up a stink, just get another. ...and they know

it, too.

I agree. With the service guy having told him, I'd say
if he doesn't hear anything more in the next couple months,
he's probably OK for a long time. At some point, something
else, eg another service visit, etc might trigger some
action. I would think the most they would do is tell him
he has to start paying the $15/mth rental fee. At that
point, depending on the circumstances, he could offer to buy
the 10+ year old tank for a couple hundred bucks.

On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 06:02:47 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

If it was on going business between homeowner and propane company, there
would be no claim filed.

I just got off the phone with the California Secretary of State.
916-653€“3516(5=ucc)(4=info)(0=human)

We can search, for free, at their "UCC Connect" site:
https://uccconnect.sos.ca.gov/acct/acct-templogin.asp

We need to search by a wildcard "debtor name" which would be
the previous owner of the residence.

If we find a hit, it costs $5 each to obtain the results.

However, they told me the UCC-1 is for companies who buy
things from other companies for the purpose of running
companies so, non-commercial debtors, such as a homeowner,
would rarely, if ever, show up on the UCC search.

So the whole UCC tack may be a red herring in California.

They suggested the "county recorder", whatever that is.

I have to run off to work right now - but I'll report back
when I have more info.

On Monday, September 30, 2013 9:24:30 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thursday, September 26, 2013 9:41:04 PM UTC-4, Alex Gunderson wrote:

But, what about "abandoned" property?



You are what's wrong with the country today.



All you are doing is trying to weasel your way into a "free" tank because you don't want to pay for tank rental.







Deep down you know who it belongs to, and that you should be paying the rental fee. It's only fair.



Either the previous homeowner or you were supposed to call and transfer that tank account to your name. Obviously the previous homeowner didn't care. Rather than do the upright and honest thing you kept your mouth shut.



That's a big assumption and I doubt it's correct. First,
it would be very stupid for the previous owner to not call
up the gas company and tell them to terminate service. The
previous owner could continue to get billed for gas, so
it's very likely they did call them up. Second, if they
didn't, then why didn't the previous gas company just show
up and continue to fill the tank? After they sent a bill or
two to the former owner, something would have happened.?
It looks more to me like something fell through the cracks
at the gas company.

As far as Alex being responsible, I'd say he has some
responsibility now, because the service guy from the gas
company told him that the tank shows up in their database
as belonging to the previous gas company. This is 3 years
later. But what exactly
do you think he should do? Call up his current company
that now has bought out the previous company, so they may
own the tank, and force the issue? A representative
of the company knows about it. What more is he supposed to
do? He's not hiding the tank or lying. For one thing,
all we know is what a service tech told
him. Presumably that service guy will do whatever it is
that he's supposed to do. Maybe he'll hear from the gas
company. If he doesn't, I sure wouldn't go forcing the issue
either.

And his assertion that it could be abandoned property is
a valid issue. It doesn't make Alex a bad person. It's like
if a tree on my property that's healthy falls onto my neighbors
shed and crushes it during a wind storm. I, like many people, would
feel some moral responsibility, since it was my tree.
But the law says otherwise. Unless the tree was diseased, dead,
etc and I knew about it, etc, then I'm not responsible.
The law sets the rules we play by. And if his tank meets the
law for abandoned property, then it's his tank now.




You've had that tank rent free for however many years. Time to do the honest thing, own up, and pay the long-overdue bill.

What bill? He had no contract with the previous company.
The former owner did. If they want to collect past rental
fees, they would have to go after the former owner, not Alex.
Alex had no say in negotiating or signing that contract. For
one thing, it's clear from the thread that Alex would prefer
to BUY a tank. If the gas company had presented him with
a bill 3 years ago for rental, he could have said, "I want
to buy it, how much?" And if he couldn't come to terms with
that company, he could have told them, he's switching to
another company, etc. You can't enforce a contract where no
contract ever existed.

On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 08:18:54 -0700, wrote:

With the service guy having told him, I'd say if he doesn't
hear anything more in the next couple months, he's probably
OK for a long time.

I called Debra Bowen, Secretary of State, whose office said
they only handle commercial transaction recordings. The
Secretary of State's office said I needed to call the
County Recorder's office.

Calling the County Recorder was like calling the DMV.
Nobody knew anything. Everyone was guessing. I was appalled.

Nonetheless, they told me (after I asked to speak with
numerous people) that they've never heard of a propane
company filling out paperwork with them for the lease or
ownership of a propane tank.

Still, they said the only way to know for sure would be
to stop by and do a personal search on their non-Internet
computers - so - of course - that's what I'll do.

But, based on my conversations with them, I'm not going
to hold my breath that there is any record of the prior
transaction with the county.

Do you have any other ideas for whom to ask in the
government to see what the typical process might be?

In article ,
Alex Gunderson wrote:


Do you have any other ideas for whom to ask in the
government to see what the typical process might be?
Is there a permiting process involved such as at the Building
Department or maybe through the fire department?
--
America is at that awkward stage. It's too late
to work within the system, but too early to shoot
the *******s."-- Claire Wolfe

On Monday, September 30, 2013 1:06:15 PM UTC-4, Alex Gunderson wrote:
On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 08:18:54 -0700, wrote:



With the service guy having told him, I'd say if he doesn't

hear anything more in the next couple months, he's probably

OK for a long time.



I called Debra Bowen, Secretary of State, whose office said

they only handle commercial transaction recordings. The

Secretary of State's office said I needed to call the

County Recorder's office.



Calling the County Recorder was like calling the DMV.

Nobody knew anything. Everyone was guessing. I was appalled.



Nonetheless, they told me (after I asked to speak with

numerous people) that they've never heard of a propane

company filling out paperwork with them for the lease or

ownership of a propane tank.



Still, they said the only way to know for sure would be

to stop by and do a personal search on their non-Internet

computers - so - of course - that's what I'll do.



But, based on my conversations with them, I'm not going

to hold my breath that there is any record of the prior

transaction with the county.



Do you have any other ideas for whom to ask in the

government to see what the typical process might be?

I think your whole UCC form thing is a red herring. Filing
that form gives the party filing it MORE protection. I don't
see anything saying that if you don't file it, you relinquish
ownership to the property in question. It's just that with
a UCC form you have a better claim. Also, not sure a UCC
thing applies to a tank rental.

On 9/27/2013 4:12 PM, Alex Gunderson wrote:
On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 15:12:20 -0400, dadiOH wrote:

2. House was sold, you start buying LPG from Company B. Company A *knows*
they are no longer delivering gas, should have picked up tank if it was
theirs. They did not so either it was not theirs or they abandoned it.
In either case, I would now consider it mine

This makes a lot of sense!

It's not like the company A didn't know where to find the tank.

And, since it's needed for heating & cooking & hot water, company A
must have known *someone* was filling it up over all these years.

not if the house was not lived in, and unless they drove by and checked,
they can't tell that.

I'm *assuming* that there is no legal way for them to come and
get it (without my permission); but even then, they could have
simply sent me a letter *asking* for permission to come and take
their tank. Right?

sure. otherwise car repo's wouldn't be able to occur when it's parked on
the driveway.

They never did that. I've had no contact with them whatsoever.

On 9/27/2013 3:57 PM, Alex Gunderson wrote:
On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 12:22:43 -0700, Chip C wrote:

that affidavit will be central to downloading the liability to you.

I don't disagree with that, but, while *anything* can happen, the
real likelihood of propane tanks suddenly exploding for no apparent
reason is not one danger that I'm currently worried about.

These things are built like brick outhouses. They are simple cylinders.
Steel. Painted. Solid. No moving parts (well, I don't know what's in
the regulator). It meets building codes of the time it was built.

basically it's a rubber diaphragm. no moving parts.

I do agree bad things "can" happen; but the chance of the thing
suddenly and inexplicably exploding is about as likely as me winning
the lottery - in which case, I'll have enough money to pay for the
increased liability.

I presume your insurer has acknowledged its presence.

Well. They certainly visited the property at the time that I bought
the house. And, they'd have to be blind not to see the huge thing.
Plus EVERYONE out here has a propane tank, so, they'd also have to
be fools to know know about it. So, AFAIK, they know all about it.

On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 08:50:05 -0700, wrote:

The law sets the rules we play by. And if his tank meets the law for
abandoned property, then it's his tank now.

Thanks for understanding.

The rules for establishing ownership should be clear, especially
for something as common as an above-ground propane tank.

I do have some more information. The company that made the tank is
Roy E. Hanson Jr. Mfg, 213-747-7514. They sent me an email stating
that the serial number matches a tank sold to a THIRD propane
commercial entity.

I called that third entity, and they're still in business (they
said they've been in business for 85 years in this area), and they
never owned that tank.

Hmmm... makes no sense.

To confirm, the manufacturer told me I should plug in the national
registry number into a database at http://www.nationalboard.org

Apparently, all propane tanks have a six-digit national board number
in addition to the serial number of any number of digits.

The manufacturer said California doesn't require this number, but
many other states do, so, they put it on all propane tanks they
make.

The only problem is I can't find the national board lookup
mechanism, and nobody answers their phone in Columbus Ohio:
614.888.8320

So, I'm working the details as we speak.

On 9/30/2013 11:06 AM, Alex Gunderson wrote:
On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 06:02:47 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

If it was on going business between homeowner and propane company, there
would be no claim filed. If my car was parked in the driveway at the time
of closing, would you now own it? Seems like a shaky premise here.

I do understand your point. But let me state mine with an example.

What would happen if an upside down abandoned car was on your
property, stripped to the bones (for arguments sake).

It was an eyesore, but, you bought the property - so you figured it
was your abandoned car - so you had the thing towed to the scrap
yard.

Now, almost five years later, a neighbor knocks on your door and
says that was HIS abandoned car that you sent to the junkyard.

That neighbor knew you owned the house; he knew it was his car;
he knew it and he says he lent it to the previous owner, at for
$100 a year, so the kids could play on that car.

Now he wants his car back, or worse yet, he wants you to pay
him for the $100 that this personal property was worth?

NOTE: This is the kind of reason that the 3 year abandonment
statute of limitations exists in the first place.

OK. Put yourself in my shoes.
Would you PAY him the $1,000 he says his car was worth?


OK, I see your apple and raise you an orange.

If I was the abandoned car, first thing I would do is ask the property
owner about it. Same as I would a propane tank. I don't know your
experience in the area of propane, but I have some exposure to it. I
know that in "most" cases,the tank belongs to the propane company.
Before assuming I would become the owner, I'd inquire.

To answer your question, no, I'd not pay, but yes, I'd gladly give it
back if still there. Cars have titles also. Varies from state to
state, but here, you could not scrap it unless you showed the title and
proof of ownership. Some states you can if the car is XX years old.

In the courts, accepted and normal business practices become a big
factor in decisions. Check with a lawyer, I'm not one and can't give
legal advice.

On 9/30/2013 7:41 AM, Alex Gunderson wrote:

So, the whole thing is confusing, at best.


Certainly is. OTOH, do you really want to own the tank and potential
liability? Depending on condition you may wanto to be rid of it.

On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 08:50:05 -0700, wrote:

You can't enforce a contract where no contract ever
existed.

And, in this case, the tank was sold by the original
manufacturer to a THIRD propane company!

I called that third propane company, who has been in
business in the area for 85 years. They did NOT ever
service my residence!

Of course, they still could have originally owned the
tank and sold it to someone but they have no record of
owning that tank.

I finally got a human at the https://www.nationalboard.org
registry public affairs department:
National Board Public Affairs Phone: 614.431.3204

They told me there is no way I can search for the datasheet
on that tank without establishing a relationship with them,
but, they asked me for my national registry code plus the
serial number and they said they'd let me know what information
is on the registration for original and subsequent owners
for that specific tank (plus I can buy the datasheet).

However, they said only the original owner is likely to
be on the tank datasheet, unless someone updated their
database voluntarily after the fact.

On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 08:18:54 -0700, wrote:

With the service guy having told him, I'd say if he doesn't hear
anything more in the next couple months, he's probably OK for
a long time.

What I've established is the following:
* Roy E. Hanson Jr. Mfg, Los Angeles manufactured the tank
* Hanson sold to Suburban, who has no record of my address
* Somehow the Heritage Group presumably lay claim to the tank
* Amerigas bought the Heritage Group (& presumably its assets)
* An Amerigas tech said (last week) the tank was owned by the Heritage Group
* There is no mention in the closing papers either way
* The tank had propane & regulators attached at the time of sale
* After sale, I signed an affidavit stating I owned the tank
* Amerigas inspected the tank and found everything to be sound
* Amerigas has been filling the tank ever since

In addition, it's probable that:
* Propane tanks are personal property (i.e., not real property)
* Personal property is subject to a 3-year abandonment SOL
* There is no serial # registered with the building permit
* There is likely no UCC-1 filed with the Secretary of State
* There probably isn't a lien filed with local County Records
* Ownership is voluntary when registered at the National Board

Homework:
* Wait to hear back from the National Board on ownership
* Run an in-person search at the County Records for liens
* Still waiting to hear back from the title insurance on liens

On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 13:31:52 -0400, Kurt Ullman wrote:

Is there a permiting process involved such as at the Building
Department or maybe through the fire department?

Yes. There is a $250 permit fee, but I spoke to that department
and they said they would never put down the serial number of
the tank as the owner is responsible and it's not a matter of
who owns the tank to them.

On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 15:09:27 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

If I was the abandoned car, first thing I would do is ask the property
owner about it. Same as I would a propane tank.

I trusted the title company to ensure I bought the property free and
clear of liens. They certified it was. Who am I to doubt that?

I don't know your experience in the area of propane, but I have
some exposure to it. I know that in "most" cases,the tank belongs
to the propane company. Before assuming I would become the owner,
I'd inquire.

Rest assured that Amerigas asked me before they even came out
to inspect the tank, who owned the tank and regulators. I signed
an affidavit that I did. There are no markings on the tank otherwise.
There is nothing in the closing papers otherwise. The title company
said the property was free and clear, mine. There are no liens extant.

Fast forward to today, I called the manufacturer of the tank,
Roy E. Hanson Jr. Mfg, who sold the tank to Suburban Propane
well before the penultimate owner bought the property. So the
tank was initially manufactured and sold to Suburban when a
prior owner (prior to the previous one) owned the property.

However, Suburban propane has no records of that tank ever being
on the property. Last week, we fortuitously find out that the Amerigas
tech states that he believes (based on serial number & address)
that the tank was owned by the Heritage Group, who was recently
bought (six months ago) by Amerigas.

There is no record of a lien at the County Records that we know of
(I will run a personal search though). There is no record of a
Uniform Commercial Code registration at the State Department.
The title company found no liens (again, I'm waiting for details).

And, most important of all, the gas company (presumably) had a
lease with the penultimate owner which allowed them an easement
to take a tank they believed was theirs (which they never exercised
while the home was under that previous ownership (bearing in mind
the home lay vacant for a period of almost a year during the
economic downturn).

Seems to me that nobody can prove ownership.
What happens then?

On 9/30/2013 1:38 PM, Alex Gunderson wrote:
On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 15:09:27 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

If I was the abandoned car, first thing I would do is ask the property
owner about it. Same as I would a propane tank.

I trusted the title company to ensure I bought the property free and
clear of liens. They certified it was. Who am I to doubt that?

I don't know your experience in the area of propane, but I have
some exposure to it. I know that in "most" cases,the tank belongs
to the propane company. Before assuming I would become the owner,
I'd inquire.

Rest assured that Amerigas asked me before they even came out
to inspect the tank, who owned the tank and regulators. I signed
an affidavit that I did. There are no markings on the tank otherwise.
There is nothing in the closing papers otherwise. The title company
said the property was free and clear, mine. There are no liens extant.

Fast forward to today, I called the manufacturer of the tank,
Roy E. Hanson Jr. Mfg, who sold the tank to Suburban Propane
well before the penultimate owner bought the property. So the
tank was initially manufactured and sold to Suburban when a
prior owner (prior to the previous one) owned the property.

However, Suburban propane has no records of that tank ever being
on the property. Last week, we fortuitously find out that the Amerigas
tech states that he believes (based on serial number & address)
that the tank was owned by the Heritage Group, who was recently
bought (six months ago) by Amerigas.

There is no record of a lien at the County Records that we know of
(I will run a personal search though). There is no record of a
Uniform Commercial Code registration at the State Department.
The title company found no liens (again, I'm waiting for details).

And, most important of all, the gas company (presumably) had a
lease with the penultimate owner which allowed them an easement
to take a tank they believed was theirs (which they never exercised
while the home was under that previous ownership (bearing in mind
the home lay vacant for a period of almost a year during the
economic downturn).

Seems to me that nobody can prove ownership.
What happens then?


it doesn't officially exist.

On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 11:55:06 -0700, chaniarts wrote:

basically it's a rubber diaphragm. no moving parts.

Interesting, at least the high pressure regulator is
apparently normally owned by the entity that owns the
tank.

The high-pressure regulator is painted red.

I have three low-pressure regulators, and they're
variously painted brown and gray.

So it's of interest how a pressure regulator got on
the lines, if the tank was owned by an individual.

Have any of you bought such a pressure regulator?

On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 11:55:02 -0700, chaniarts wrote:

otherwise car repo's wouldn't be able to occur when it's parked on
the driveway.

That's a good point.

I called the supposed original owner, Suburban Propane, who said
they never had a tank at my location - and they said they never
sold anything to the Heritage Group whom Amerigas bought.

But, they did say that, if someone doesn't pay their bill, they
have an easement in the contract that allows them to drive on
the property to take the tank back.

This is apparently the Amerigas lease terms:
http://www.amerigas.com/residential/...ling_terms.htm

Here are the pros and cons of tank ownership:
http://www.amerigas.com/amerigas-pro...ank-ownership/

On 9/30/2013 1:42 PM, Alex Gunderson wrote:
On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 11:55:06 -0700, chaniarts wrote:

basically it's a rubber diaphragm. no moving parts.

Interesting, at least the high pressure regulator is
apparently normally owned by the entity that owns the
tank.

The high-pressure regulator is painted red.

I have three low-pressure regulators, and they're
variously painted brown and gray.

So it's of interest how a pressure regulator got on
the lines, if the tank was owned by an individual.

Have any of you bought such a pressure regulator?


i replaced the high pressure regulator on my tank just this year. it
lasted 12 years. out of curiosity, i took it apart, so that's how i know
what's inside it. it also was red, as is the replacement. my low
pressure regulator is gray.

why would you have 3? are they cascaded, or do they make up some sort of
manifold and feed 3 different lines from the high pressure line?

On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 13:41:26 -0700, chaniarts wrote:

it doesn't officially exist.



There goes my coffee!

On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 15:12:28 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

do you really want to own the tank

Yes.

For the reasons stated here by Amerigas:
http://www.amerigas.com/amerigas-pro...ank-ownership/

Basically I can save more than the cost of the tank
and maintenance simply by switching suppliers at will.

But, if I am to buy the tank, it's not clear based on my
research *who* owns that tank.

It could be Suburban Propane (who originally bought it).
Or the Heritage Group (who apparently thinks they bought it).
Or it could be Amerigas (who bought the Heritage Group).
Or, it could be me (who bought the house with the tank).

It could even be the title company, if they missed a lien
on the property that comes up later to bite me.

On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 13:46:21 -0700, chaniarts wrote:

i replaced the high pressure regulator on my tank just this year.

This is extremely useful information.

I called Suburban Propane and Amerigas. They both said nobody will sell
me a regulator, even if I buy the tank from them.

So how did *you* buy your regulator?

was "my" tank, they would have to put "their" regulator on it if it
lasted 12 years.

Apparently all propane pressure regulators have to be replaced
every 12 years, but where do you buy them from if the gas company
won't sell them to you?

why would you have 3? are they cascaded, or do they make up some sort of
manifold and feed 3 different lines from the high pressure line?

One low-pressure regulator (brown) is at the outside wall of the house.
Another low-pressure regulator (gray) is at the power generator.
Another low-pressure regulator is on the line to the pool heater & BBQ.
The red high-pressure regulator is on the line coming out of the tank.

On 9/30/2013 2:18 PM, Alex Gunderson wrote:
On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 13:46:21 -0700, chaniarts wrote:

i replaced the high pressure regulator on my tank just this year.

This is extremely useful information.

I called Suburban Propane and Amerigas. They both said nobody will sell
me a regulator, even if I buy the tank from them.

So how did *you* buy your regulator?


let me rephrase: i had one (of the 4 propane delivery companies that i
normally use, since i own my tank) replace my high pressure regulator.
iirc it was amerigas.

i tried to find the internal parts to mine, since the regulator body was
in fine shape, but the internal rubber diaphragm was worn out. i
couldn't find any rebuilding parts.

however, they can be found on the net.

http://propanewarehouse.com/firstregulators.asp

mine was the 1.1mbtu version. not very expensive at all.

it's not rocket science. you shut off the gas, unbolt it, bolt on the
new one, test with soapy water. what's to fear but a little immolation?

was "my" tank, they would have to put "their" regulator on it if it
lasted 12 years.

the next time i'll just do it myself and save the service charge. it's
pretty simple. there's nothing on it that states it has to be replaced
on a 12 year schedule. you can tell if you tighten up the bolts that
connect the two halves, and still get a couple soap bubbles produced.
the internal seal has gone south at that point. my tank is buried and is
downhill (thus lower, and propane sinks) than the house, so there not
too much danger from a minor leak if you catch it in time. i also live
quite some distance from anyone else so it's quite diffused by the time
it gets anywhere.


Apparently all propane pressure regulators have to be replaced
every 12 years, but where do you buy them from if the gas company
won't sell them to you?

why would you have 3? are they cascaded, or do they make up some sort of
manifold and feed 3 different lines from the high pressure line?

One low-pressure regulator (brown) is at the outside wall of the house.
Another low-pressure regulator (gray) is at the power generator.
Another low-pressure regulator is on the line to the pool heater & BBQ.
The red high-pressure regulator is on the line coming out of the tank.

In article ,
Alex Gunderson wrote:

On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 13:31:52 -0400, Kurt Ullman wrote:

Is there a permiting process involved such as at the Building
Department or maybe through the fire department?

Yes. There is a $250 permit fee, but I spoke to that department
and they said they would never put down the serial number of
the tank as the owner is responsible and it's not a matter of
who owns the tank to them.

That sorta surprises me. You would think they would take that to
establish if someone tries to change it out and not pay the fee.
--
America is at that awkward stage. It's too late
to work within the system, but too early to shoot
the *******s."-- Claire Wolfe

On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 14:38:52 -0700, chaniarts wrote:

however, they can be found on the net.
http://propanewarehouse.com/firstregulators.asp
mine was the 1.1mbtu version. not very expensive at all.

This is beautiful information for alt.home.repair!
These have to be replaced, apparently, every 12 years, whether they
need it or not, so, it makes sense for us to buy them ourselves,
since Amerigas told me they charge $300 and it's still "their" regulator!

If I replace it myself, for less than $100, that's another bonus
for owning my own equipment!

Is there an actual DATE STAMP on the things?
(Note: When I get home, I'll check.)

PS: Here's a reference that says it must be replaced every 12 years:
http://www.amerigas.com/amerigas-pro...ank-ownership/

However, this article says it's more like 15 to 25 years:
http://www.propane101.com/regulators.htm

So, does anyone know if this 12 years is a law or just Amerigas scare-speak?

On Monday, September 30, 2013 3:30:11 PM UTC-4, Alex Gunderson wrote:
On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 08:50:05 -0700, wrote:



You can't enforce a contract where no contract ever

existed.



And, in this case, the tank was sold by the original

manufacturer to a THIRD propane company!



I called that third propane company, who has been in

business in the area for 85 years. They did NOT ever

service my residence!



Of course, they still could have originally owned the

tank and sold it to someone but they have no record of

owning that tank.



I finally got a human at the https://www.nationalboard.org

registry public affairs department:

National Board Public Affairs Phone: 614.431.3204



They told me there is no way I can search for the datasheet

on that tank without establishing a relationship with them,

but, they asked me for my national registry code plus the

serial number and they said they'd let me know what information

is on the registration for original and subsequent owners

for that specific tank (plus I can buy the datasheet).



However, they said only the original owner is likely to

be on the tank datasheet, unless someone updated their

database voluntarily after the fact.

Keep calling enough and eventually something is sure to
happen. Why you you're not happy with a tank that has
been free for 3 years and won't just let a sleeping dog lie is
beyond me and I think everyone else here.

On 9/30/2013 2:57 PM, Alex Gunderson wrote:
On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 14:38:52 -0700, chaniarts wrote:

however, they can be found on the net.
http://propanewarehouse.com/firstregulators.asp
mine was the 1.1mbtu version. not very expensive at all.

This is beautiful information for alt.home.repair!
These have to be replaced, apparently, every 12 years, whether they
need it or not, so, it makes sense for us to buy them ourselves,
since Amerigas told me they charge $300 and it's still "their" regulator!

If I replace it myself, for less than $100, that's another bonus
for owning my own equipment!

Is there an actual DATE STAMP on the things?
(Note: When I get home, I'll check.)

not on mine, either low or high. there's also no tag or sticker on it
with anything additional that the installers left. my low pressure
regulator is next to the house, and the only additional inspection in
the 12 years since installation was when the guy was replacing my high
pressure regulator, just to see if he had any more business to do on the
same trip.

PS: Here's a reference that says it must be replaced every 12 years:
http://www.amerigas.com/amerigas-pro...ank-ownership/

However, this article says it's more like 15 to 25 years:
http://www.propane101.com/regulators.htm

So, does anyone know if this 12 years is a law or just Amerigas scare-speak?


amerigas didn't tell me it's required to change the regulator on any
schedule, nor did any of the other fill companies ever do so. iirc it
was somewhere around $300 for the part + installation, and they do not
own the regulator. it's attached to my tank, and is my regulator. your
link states that this is a con for user owned tanks, btw.

as a matter of fact, i got a fill about 4 days before i smelled gas, so
it might have even been slightly leaking during the fill and they didn't
even mention it.

i do know that i can use different fill companies only after each come
out and do an inspection for safety (inside and out). however, they only
did that for the 1st fill, and none has ever been back for another
check. i'd guess they do some sort of check on the tank regulator by
smell only, and the driver must be immune to the smell. i've never seen
them use a sniffer or soapy water for a test when doing a fill.

of the 4 companies i use, the difference between high and low can be (at
certain times of the year) $1/gallon. for a 250g tank, that's only 1.5
fills to pay off the service call for the regulator. i get a fill every
10 months or so, when i want to, not on the company's schedule. i can
time buying to the low cost season, although amerigas sometimes sends me
a coupon for .50-$1/gallon about once every couple years.

On 9/30/2013 3:02 PM, wrote:
On Monday, September 30, 2013 3:30:11 PM UTC-4, Alex Gunderson wrote:
On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 08:50:05 -0700, wrote:



You can't enforce a contract where no contract ever

existed.



And, in this case, the tank was sold by the original

manufacturer to a THIRD propane company!



I called that third propane company, who has been in

business in the area for 85 years. They did NOT ever

service my residence!



Of course, they still could have originally owned the

tank and sold it to someone but they have no record of

owning that tank.



I finally got a human at the https://www.nationalboard.org

registry public affairs department:

National Board Public Affairs Phone: 614.431.3204



They told me there is no way I can search for the datasheet

on that tank without establishing a relationship with them,

but, they asked me for my national registry code plus the

serial number and they said they'd let me know what information

is on the registration for original and subsequent owners

for that specific tank (plus I can buy the datasheet).



However, they said only the original owner is likely to

be on the tank datasheet, unless someone updated their

database voluntarily after the fact.

Keep calling enough and eventually something is sure to
happen. Why you you're not happy with a tank that has
been free for 3 years and won't just let a sleeping dog lie is
beyond me and I think everyone else here.


ime, it is far better to own the tank costwise. i can sometimes save
$1/gallon (which quickly paid for the tank) just by making a few phone
calls.

"Alex Gunderson" wrote in message


Have any of you bought such a pressure regulator?

Yeah, I did, many years ago when I bought a sailboat

I had just installed an on demand hot water heater, wanted all up to snuff
so went to the gas place and told them I wanted a regulator for 15" WC
(water column). Went back to the boat, had my wife up on deck to turn on
the tank; when she did I lit the heater and I HAD FIRE EVERY WHERE!! Good
thing my wife was on deck to shut off the tank because I sure couldn't get
to the water heater. Could have been a real disasteer; as it was, I lost
most of my eyebrows, moustache and beard.

I returned to the gas place, expressed my extreme dissatisfaction. Turned
out they had given me a regulator for 15 psi, not WC. Big difference.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

"Alex Gunderson" wrote in message

On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 13:46:21 -0700, chaniarts wrote:

Apparently all propane pressure regulators have to be
replaced
every 12 years, but where do you buy them from if the gas
company won't sell them to you?

A welding supply place was where I bought mine.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 15:12:09 -0700, chaniarts
wrote:

On 9/30/2013 3:02 PM, wrote:
On Monday, September 30, 2013 3:30:11 PM UTC-4, Alex Gunderson wrote:
On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 08:50:05 -0700, wrote:



You can't enforce a contract where no contract ever

existed.



And, in this case, the tank was sold by the original

manufacturer to a THIRD propane company!



I called that third propane company, who has been in

business in the area for 85 years. They did NOT ever

service my residence!



Of course, they still could have originally owned the

tank and sold it to someone but they have no record of

owning that tank.



I finally got a human at the https://www.nationalboard.org

registry public affairs department:

National Board Public Affairs Phone: 614.431.3204



They told me there is no way I can search for the datasheet

on that tank without establishing a relationship with them,

but, they asked me for my national registry code plus the

serial number and they said they'd let me know what information

is on the registration for original and subsequent owners

for that specific tank (plus I can buy the datasheet).



However, they said only the original owner is likely to

be on the tank datasheet, unless someone updated their

database voluntarily after the fact.

Keep calling enough and eventually something is sure to
happen. Why you you're not happy with a tank that has
been free for 3 years and won't just let a sleeping dog lie is
beyond me and I think everyone else here.


ime, it is far better to own the tank costwise. i can sometimes save
$1/gallon (which quickly paid for the tank) just by making a few phone
calls.

I'm sure you've run the numbers but don't assume the numbers are the
same for everyone. Even if the rental agreements are identical
(highly doubtful) people will have different priorities for their cash
or other intangibles. Personally, I don't want to own a tank but
would be convinced if the numbers came out in my favor big-time.

On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 08:16:19 -0400, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 9/30/2013 1:16 AM, Danny D. wrote:
On Sat, 28 Sep 2013 10:18:53 -0400, Kurt Ullman wrote:

And the insurance pays for a new one with clear title. win-win.

Actually, I could use a new propane tank, so, Stormin steals it,
and the OP gets the money from the insurance company, and I buy
it from Stormin (at a reduced cost, of course).

Win:Win:Win

With the price of gas, I have to get a dime a mile for delivery.

What? You steal a THOUSAND gallon tank of gas and want money for
more? What a cheapskate!

On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 08:18:54 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Saturday, September 28, 2013 2:31:15 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 28 Sep 2013 06:21:13 -0700 (PDT), "

wrote:



On Friday, September 27, 2013 10:44:39 PM UTC-4, wrote:

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 15:45:59 -0700 (PDT), bob haller



wrote:







its probably best to keep the tank at least half full, in case some day OP cant get it filled.



Then keep a low profile and hope its forgotten about. repainting the tank is probably a good idea, to fix rust and cover possible ownership questions.







when OP is ready to sell home expect lots of unpleasant questions.....







Why? The questions weren't asked when he bought the house. If asked,



"It must be mine, it was there when I bought the house and no one has



ever told me otherwise." No lies. He's probably blown that argument



now, though. ;-)



The part about "no one has ever told me otherwise" would be a lie.

He stated that a worker for the company was there couple days ago,

looked up the serial # of the tank on their database

and said that it shows up as being the tank

of Company X along his address as the location Company X was his the gas supplier to the former owner and has now been bought by the current company.



I meant before he opened his mouth. Let them tell him.



They did tell him without him asking. He said a service
guy was there to hook up a new grill and while there, he
looked up the serial # of the tank and told him it was
listed as being owned by the previous gas company, and
located at his address.

Yes, I got that. STFU until they send him a bill (or contract). It's
not his responsibly to pay for it until the payment is requested. He
has signed nothing.

But otherwise, I think we're pretty much on the same page. No

need to go get a new tank, start asking too many questions, etc.

Just keep doing what he's been doing and see what, if anything happens

next.



He insists on making it far more difficult than it needs to be. If

the gas company puts up a stink, just get another. ...and they know

it, too.

I agree. With the service guy having told him, I'd say
if he doesn't hear anything more in the next couple months,
he's probably OK for a long time. At some point, something
else, eg another service visit, etc might trigger some
action. I would think the most they would do is tell him
he has to start paying the $15/mth rental fee. At that
point, depending on the circumstances, he could offer to buy
the 10+ year old tank for a couple hundred bucks.

Or demand a new tank for his $15/mo (seems like a lot, though).

On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 17:54:27 -0400, Kurt Ullman
wrote:

In article ,
Alex Gunderson wrote:

On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 13:31:52 -0400, Kurt Ullman wrote:

Is there a permiting process involved such as at the Building
Department or maybe through the fire department?

Yes. There is a $250 permit fee, but I spoke to that department
and they said they would never put down the serial number of
the tank as the owner is responsible and it's not a matter of
who owns the tank to them.

That sorta surprises me. You would think they would take that to
establish if someone tries to change it out and not pay the fee.

Perhaps it's a one-time fee.

On 9/30/2013 7:57 PM, wrote:

With the price of gas, I have to get a dime a mile for delivery.

What? You steal a THOUSAND gallon tank of gas and want money for
more? What a cheapskate!

I'm not going to keep the LP, you know.


..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 19:55:50 -0400, krw wrote:

Personally, I don't want to own a tank but would be
convinced if the numbers came out in my favor big-time.

I wouldn't even *think* of owning the tank with the numbers
being that the tank "could" pay for itself in just a couple
of fills.

That it might spontaneously ignite is not a worry.

More to the point of home repair, the regulators (of which I have
3 low pressure and 1 high pressure) seem to need replacing, by
law? about every 12 years (if you believe Amerigas) or every
15 to 25 years (if you believe the propane association).

Amerigas: 12 years:
http://www.amerigas.com/amerigas-pro...ank-ownership/

Propane Association: 15 to 25 years:
http://www.propane101.com/regulators.htm

The cost to replace 1 regulator is $300 if Amerigas does it,
and about $73.22 if we do it ourselves.
http://propanewarehouse.com/firstregulators.asp

On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 18:35:48 -0400, dadiOH wrote:

Turned out they had given me a regulator for 15 psi, not WC.
Big difference.

Now that you've scared the wits out of me, I went to look
at my four regulators.

At least this is directly a home repair question.

Can you explain what these numbers mean so that I can buy
my own replacement regulators when their time comes due?

RED High Pressure regulator on the propane tank:
Fisher Controls
Date: 11/02 (so 12 years would be 11/2014)
ORF: 13/64 IN (presumably that's the orifice)
SPG: 5.5 - 10.5 PSI (presumably that's the pressure range)
But there are no BTU figures???

GRAY Low Pressure regulator on the propane tank:
Fisher Controls
Date: 11/99 (so 12 years would be 11/2011)
ORF: 13/64 IN (presumably that's the orifice)
SPG: 9.5 - 13 IN WC

BROWN Low pressure regulator at the generator
RECO
ELON College NC
LV 4403

GRAY Low Pressure regulator at the house
RECO
Chicago ILL USA
2403

Notice there are no dates on two of the regulators, and,
one regulator is past the 12-year cutoff date. Also notice
there are no BTU figures, so how do I figure out a replacement
regulator?
http://propanewarehouse.com/firstregulators.asp