On Jun 3, 3:07*pm, Pat Barber wrote:
I did the following to mine:

(1) Double the number of 120 outlets
(2) use quad outlet boxes at 120 locations (dahikt)
(3) Put ALL electrical in conduit on outside of walls.

The reason for the external wiring is that every shop
tends to get moved around from time to time and you
can move stuff MUCH easier with it in conduit.



Bill wrote:
Prompted by suggestions that a shop needs convenient power, *I created a
(pdf) SU view of my proposed outlet configuration (for one wall), and also a
corresponding wiring model:

http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"use quad outlet boxes at 120 locations"

480 outlets? Yeah, that oughta be enough for most shops. ;-)

On 6/3/2010 2:07 PM, Pat Barber wrote:
I did the following to mine:

(1) Double the number of 120 outlets
(2) use quad outlet boxes at 120 locations (dahikt)
(3) Put ALL electrical in conduit on outside of walls.


The reason for the external wiring is that every shop
tends to get moved around from time to time and you
can move stuff MUCH easier with it in conduit.

You can even move the conduit, with receptacles still wired, from shop
to shop ... DAMHIKT.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On 6/3/2010 1:50 PM, FrozenNorth wrote:
On 6/03/10 1:46 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 6/3/10 12:24 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Although there are pretty good reasons why one should not place a
breaker
panel (or fuse box) in a closet. I've seen many houses from the 50's and
60's with breaker panels in closets; but the code changed because of
the obvious fire hazard.

scott

Ok, I'm an idiot. It's so obvious, I'm oblivious. :-)

What's make a closet more of a fire hazard for a breaker box?

Probably not so much for a properly functioning, properly installed box.

However, older boxes, too many handymen doing what they shouldn't etc.,
then I can start to see potential issues.

Imagine clothes draped over a fuse box where a fuse has been screwed in
on top of a penny, with the overload that kept blowing the fuse uncorrected.

On 6/03/10 3:18 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
On 6/3/2010 1:50 PM, FrozenNorth wrote:
On 6/03/10 1:46 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 6/3/10 12:24 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Although there are pretty good reasons why one should not place a
breaker
panel (or fuse box) in a closet. I've seen many houses from the 50's
and
60's with breaker panels in closets; but the code changed because of
the obvious fire hazard.

scott

Ok, I'm an idiot. It's so obvious, I'm oblivious. :-)

What's make a closet more of a fire hazard for a breaker box?

Probably not so much for a properly functioning, properly installed box.

However, older boxes, too many handymen doing what they shouldn't etc.,
then I can start to see potential issues.

Imagine clothes draped over a fuse box where a fuse has been screwed in
on top of a penny, with the overload that kept blowing the fuse
uncorrected.

Isn't that covered by handymen doing what they shouldn't?

I can't see a problem with a properly operated code compliant panel, not
that I would store clothes, chemicals etc, near my panel anyway.

--
Froz...


The system will be down for 10 days for preventive maintenance.

On 6/3/10 2:18 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
On 6/3/2010 1:50 PM, FrozenNorth wrote:
On 6/03/10 1:46 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 6/3/10 12:24 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Although there are pretty good reasons why one should not place a
breaker
panel (or fuse box) in a closet. I've seen many houses from the 50's
and
60's with breaker panels in closets; but the code changed because of
the obvious fire hazard.

scott

Ok, I'm an idiot. It's so obvious, I'm oblivious. :-)

What's make a closet more of a fire hazard for a breaker box?

Probably not so much for a properly functioning, properly installed box.

However, older boxes, too many handymen doing what they shouldn't etc.,
then I can start to see potential issues.

Imagine clothes draped over a fuse box where a fuse has been screwed in
on top of a penny, with the overload that kept blowing the fuse
uncorrected.



I don't see that as exclusive to a laundry room.

Does the NEC really cover every dumba$$ action by every brainless idiot
on earth.
It would have to be the size of an encyclopedia, wouldn't it?


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , "Bill"
wrote:


Doug,

This is the statement I was able to find:

Where?

"The main service equipment panel shall be mounted either outside or
inside
the dwelling at the point of entrance of the service conductors to the
building. All service equipment and electrical panels shall have a clear
area 30" wide and 36" deep in front. This clear area must extend from
floor
to ceiling with no intrusions from other equipment, cabinets, counters,
appliances, pipes, etc. Panels are NOT allowed in clothes closets or
bathrooms."

Right. The purpose of this language is to ensure that there is adequate
space
in front of the panel for an electrician to stand while servicing the
equipment. Basically, it means that you can't park crap on the floor in
front
of your electrical panel.

Does this prevent me from installing my subpanel right next to the main
panel (in between the adjacent pair of studs)?

No.


So the operative words here are "in front". As I understand you, the
statement doesn't refer to what's inside the wall at all, huh? Thank you
very much!

Bill

On 6/3/2010 2:42 PM, -MIKE- wrote:

Does the NEC really cover every dumba$$ action by every brainless idiot
on earth.
It would have to be the size of an encyclopedia, wouldn't it?

LOL ... damn close.

Fact is, Mike ... it's a good thing. Residential electrical codes have
saved many a catastrophe since being implemented.

If you think about how deadly electricity can be, and how close the
business end is to you on a daily basis, be thankful it is as
comprehensive as it tries to be.

There are enough crooks and fly-by-nights in this business that will
leave your butt in danger in a heartbeat that you need every advantage
you can garner from the getgo ... .. the average person does not have a
clue.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On 6/3/10 3:57 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 6/3/2010 2:42 PM, -MIKE- wrote:

Does the NEC really cover every dumba$$ action by every brainless idiot
on earth.
It would have to be the size of an encyclopedia, wouldn't it?

LOL ... damn close.

Fact is, Mike ... it's a good thing. Residential electrical codes have
saved many a catastrophe since being implemented.

If you think about how deadly electricity can be, and how close the
business end is to you on a daily basis, be thankful it is as
comprehensive as it tries to be.

There are enough crooks and fly-by-nights in this business that will
leave your butt in danger in a heartbeat that you need every advantage
you can garner from the getgo ... .. the average person does not have a
clue.


When I get a few minutes, I'll reply and tell the story of how I
discovered that the previous owner of my home was trying to burn it down
and collect the insurance.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Jun 3, 3:08*pm, Swingman wrote:
On 6/3/2010 1:30 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

The inspector says "Well, you don't need receptacles every six feet in
a closet. You're all set."

Common sense quite often dictates what passes and what doesn't ... a
recessed light in an 8' ceiling above a shower will fail in most
locales, on a 9' ceiling above a shower and it will pass, but be
prepared to prove it to each and every inspector.

Then again you can get away with a lot when an inspector can't read a
set of plans, particularly an electrical plan ... almost always have to
correct some inspectors when it comes to "dead" three way switches,
particularly when they operate lights on different floors ... like with
balcony and porch lights.

One of my favorites is municipalities that dictate where HVAC returns
can be. Some Z&P boards don't want old folks standing on chairs to
change an AC filter, so specify they can be a maximum of 48" above a
floor or landing. Others are perfectly happy if you put it on a 10'
ceiling ... although the owners may then finally appreciate just how
farking stupid your architect is.

--www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Common sense quite often dictates what passes and what doesn't"

I think in this case the inspector let it slide because my friend was
meticulous in just about every detail of the build, from the 12V
elevator he installed to bring his firewood up from the basement, to
the "whole house fan" he installed in the basement to draw warm air
from the top of the house, down around the double-walled center column
so it was deposited into the sand mass under the slab, where it would
then flow back up through the black plastic pipes than ran to the
vents on the first floor.

I'm guessing that a missing receptacle or 2 in the dining room didn't
bother the inspector too much.

"Swingman" wrote

There are enough crooks and fly-by-nights in this business that will leave
your butt in danger in a heartbeat that you need every advantage you can
garner from the getgo ... .. the average person does not have a clue.

How true.

The last house I lived in was "remodeled" by the village idiot. Shortly
after moving in I found a melting florescent fixture. That scared the hell
out of me. I immediatley shut it off at the fuse box and went nuts running
around the house and upgrading the electrical fixures, outlets, etc.

I remember the real estate agent talking about how there was a new
electrical panel installed. But they kept all the old wiring. I came very
close to having my house burn down.

If I would have just fixed that one fixture, the house would have burned
down. I replaced several ballasts. Also a fair number of light switches,
outlets and two light fixtures. And ALL of them were visibly dangerous.

Now I am an electrical safety freak. I never forgot that experience. It had
a permanent effect on me. I even do repairs for friends and family. I have
a number of electrical books, visual guides, etc. No formal training, but I
did go to electronic technician school for a year.

Funny story. The first electrical repair I ever did was for a friend of a
friend who was a fellow student. She was older than me, but totally sexy.
She needed a number of light switches and outlets replaced. I did not have a
clue how to do it. But she was so hot, I just had to try. Being young, dumb
and horny, I would have done almost anything for her.

So.o.o.o.o.o.o.ooo, I replaced them. And I shocked myself numerous times.
After I did the repairs, I was miserable from numerous shocks. She took pity
on me, served me a couple drinks and "thanked" me properly. I had a silly
grin on my face for two days afterwards.

And I learned an important lesson. I got some tools, some books and learned
how to do the repairs safely. After all, you never knew when another hot
babe would need electrical repairs. LOL

In article , -MIKE- wrote:
On 6/3/10 12:24 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Although there are pretty good reasons why one should not place a breaker
panel (or fuse box) in a closet. I've seen many houses from the 50's and
60's with breaker panels in closets; but the code changed because of
the obvious fire hazard.

scott

Ok, I'm an idiot. It's so obvious, I'm oblivious. :-)

What's make a closet more of a fire hazard for a breaker box?

A s**tload of combustible material if anything goes wrong.

I did a repair and found 300 Ohm old flat TV antenna cable used for a
switched lighting circuit, once.

YIKES!


"Lee Michaels" wrote in message
...
The last house I lived in was "remodeled" by the village idiot. Shortly
after moving in I found a melting florescent fixture. That scared the hell
out of me. I immediatley shut it off at the fuse box and went nuts running
around the house and upgrading the electrical fixures, outlets, etc.

I remember the real estate agent talking about how there was a new
electrical panel installed. But they kept all the old wiring. I came very
close to having my house burn down.

If I would have just fixed that one fixture, the house would have burned
down. I replaced several ballasts. Also a fair number of light switches,
outlets and two light fixtures. And ALL of them were visibly dangerous.

Now I am an electrical safety freak. I never forgot that experience. It had
a permanent effect on me. I even do repairs for friends and family. I have
a number of electrical books, visual guides, etc. No formal training, but I
did go to electronic technician school for a year.

Funny story. The first electrical repair I ever did was for a friend of a
friend who was a fellow student. She was older than me, but totally sexy.
She needed a number of light switches and outlets replaced. I did not have a
clue how to do it. But she was so hot, I just had to try. Being young, dumb
and horny, I would have done almost anything for her.

So.o.o.o.o.o.o.ooo, I replaced them. And I shocked myself numerous times.
After I did the repairs, I was miserable from numerous shocks. She took pity
on me, served me a couple drinks and "thanked" me properly. I had a silly
grin on my face for two days afterwards.

And I learned an important lesson. I got some tools, some books and learned
how to do the repairs safely. After all, you never knew when another hot
babe would need electrical repairs. LOL






--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

In article , wrote:
Swingman writes:
On 6/3/2010 12:46 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 6/3/10 12:24 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Although there are pretty good reasons why one should not place a breaker
panel (or fuse box) in a closet. I've seen many houses from the 50's and
60's with breaker panels in closets; but the code changed because of
the obvious fire hazard.

scott

Ok, I'm an idiot. It's so obvious, I'm oblivious. :-)

What's make a closet more of a fire hazard for a breaker box?

Don't recall the exact article but somewhere in the NEC for a number of
years has been a phrase stating that overcurrent protection devices
should not be located in the vicinity of easily flammable material ...
or words to that effect.

Yes, particularly with older-style coverless breaker boxes[*]. An
overcurrent condition may cause sparking, which with clothing'**] nearby;
fire.

[*] The push type with the on/off window, in particular; I forget the
manufacturer.

Push-Matic. Those are weird breakers -- little square things.

In article , "Bill" wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , "Bill"
wrote:


Doug,

This is the statement I was able to find:

Where?

"The main service equipment panel shall be mounted either outside or
inside
the dwelling at the point of entrance of the service conductors to the
building. All service equipment and electrical panels shall have a clear
area 30" wide and 36" deep in front. This clear area must extend from
floor
to ceiling with no intrusions from other equipment, cabinets, counters,
appliances, pipes, etc. Panels are NOT allowed in clothes closets or
bathrooms."

Right. The purpose of this language is to ensure that there is adequate
space
in front of the panel for an electrician to stand while servicing the
equipment. Basically, it means that you can't park crap on the floor in
front
of your electrical panel.

Does this prevent me from installing my subpanel right next to the main
panel (in between the adjacent pair of studs)?

No.


So the operative words here are "in front". As I understand you, the
statement doesn't refer to what's inside the wall at all, huh? Thank you
very much!

That's correct, it does not.

On Thu, 03 Jun 2010 15:33:59 -0400, FrozenNorth
wrote the following:

On 6/03/10 3:18 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
On 6/3/2010 1:50 PM, FrozenNorth wrote:
On 6/03/10 1:46 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 6/3/10 12:24 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Although there are pretty good reasons why one should not place a
breaker
panel (or fuse box) in a closet. I've seen many houses from the 50's
and
60's with breaker panels in closets; but the code changed because of
the obvious fire hazard.

scott

Ok, I'm an idiot. It's so obvious, I'm oblivious. :-)

What's make a closet more of a fire hazard for a breaker box?

Probably not so much for a properly functioning, properly installed box.

Nothing but possible air circulation to the panel for cooling.


However, older boxes, too many handymen doing what they shouldn't etc.,
then I can start to see potential issues.

Imagine clothes draped over a fuse box where a fuse has been screwed in
on top of a penny, with the overload that kept blowing the fuse
uncorrected.

Isn't that covered by handymen doing what they shouldn't?

Real handymen don't pull that kind of stunt. It's the homeowners who
think they're handy who do, and they give us a bad name.


I can't see a problem with a properly operated code compliant panel, not
that I would store clothes, chemicals etc, near my panel anyway.

That's right. I hang a rake handle over my breaker box.

--
It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor
the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change.
-- Charles Darwin

On Thu, 03 Jun 2010 14:08:56 -0500, Swingman wrote
the following:

On 6/3/2010 1:30 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

The inspector says "Well, you don't need receptacles every six feet in
a closet. You're all set."

Common sense quite often dictates what passes and what doesn't ... a
recessed light in an 8' ceiling above a shower will fail in most
locales, on a 9' ceiling above a shower and it will pass, but be
prepared to prove it to each and every inspector.

Then again you can get away with a lot when an inspector can't read a
set of plans, particularly an electrical plan ... almost always have to
correct some inspectors when it comes to "dead" three way switches,
particularly when they operate lights on different floors ... like with
balcony and porch lights.

One of my favorites is municipalities that dictate where HVAC returns
can be. Some Z&P boards don't want old folks standing on chairs to

Z&P? Izzat the "Zoological and Proctological" sector of the Building
Code Division? They bring out the animal in you and give you ****.


change an AC filter, so specify they can be a maximum of 48" above a
floor or landing. Others are perfectly happy if you put it on a 10'
ceiling ... although the owners may then finally appreciate just how
farking stupid your architect is.

I just changed a filter for a lady. It was in the wall at the top of
her 12' ceiling, a pretty fun ride from an 8' ladder.

Today I dug out some black bamboo for her (and brought home some
rhizomes.) I have some muck buckets to plant them in to keep them
from doing to me what the little leptomorphs did to her: running all
over the place.

--
It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor
the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change.
-- Charles Darwin

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
On Jun 3, 3:07 pm, Pat Barber wrote:
I did the following to mine:

(1) Double the number of 120 outlets
(2) use quad outlet boxes at 120 locations (dahikt)
(3) Put ALL electrical in conduit on outside of walls.

The reason for the external wiring is that every shop
tends to get moved around from time to time and you
can move stuff MUCH easier with it in conduit.



Bill wrote:
Prompted by suggestions that a shop needs convenient power, I created a
(pdf) SU view of my proposed outlet configuration (for one wall), and
also a
corresponding wiring model:

http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"use quad outlet boxes at 120 locations"

480 outlets? Yeah, that oughta be enough for most shops. ;-)


Thank you Pat Barber who first mentioned this in this thread and DerbyDad03
who brought it up again.
For some reason the idea of having pairs of duplex outlets didn't take until
I considered it while standing
in the shop area. It sounds like a good idea! You never know where things
will end up, battery rechargers and such.
I even ended up with a small "shop refrigerator" already (and I never was
serious about having one..).

A little more action on the project: today I took down and demolished about
6 1970's vintage kitchen
cabinets which are in the way. I referred to them earlier as "hideous" and
I won't be missing them.
I confess that the act of smashing them up with a big crowbar was almost
more fun than it should have been. : )

Bill

On Jun 1, 5:44*am, "Bill" wrote:
Prompted by suggestions that a shop needs convenient power

Can't really omment on your shop "wiring diagram" per se, but ion "convenient power" here are a few salient comments borne of the school of hard knocks Magna Cum Shudda Woddah couldha

1. Ceiling duplex outlets for every light fixture but two circuits
splitting duplex outlets into Switched (plug in your light) and steady/
always on and one breaker for each "side"

2. Locate wall outlets at convenient height(s) so as not to fall
behind benches, tool chests etc. and consider two duplex outlets at
each location with the upper left outlet SWITCHED and on its own
circuit. (These outlets are dedicated to plugging in those little wall
modules that you should unplug when leaving the shop as they eat power
24/7 and get hot and can burn/start fires).

3. Switches for lighting and ceiling and upper left at each ingress/
egress point (one, two, three or four-way switches as appropriate.

4. Remotely-switched circuit for air compressor (ao you need not be
wakened at 3AM by wife complaining of the noise "it's waking our
neighbors").

5. Extend outlets to front edge of fixed work bench(es).

6. Consider COAX, POTS, and CAT5 cables brought in from main house in
case TV, phone or Computer Network application later become more
important than they, now, may seem.

In article ,
Bill wrote:
Prompted by suggestions that a shop needs convenient power, I created a
(pdf) SU view of my proposed outlet configuration (for one wall), and also a
corresponding wiring model:

http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/

Comments or suggestions welcome. In fact, all I seek is a simple nod.
Thank you again to those of you who helped me to reach this point (of
understanding)!

Bill

BTW, I think I will feel better if I use 120v duplex outlets that are **GFCI
protected** in addition to GFCI CB's.



+I+ would run _10_ ga. (minimum) to the 240 outlets. It's only trivially
more cost initially, and 'in the future' it makes it much easier to support
something that needs more power (just change the breaker and the plug).


One can never have enough 120v outlets. I'd put a quad box at each of the
three locations, with two circuits (one for each duplex outlet pair).

If it is a strictly ONE MAN shop, two circuits for all the 120V is likely
enough -- the 'one man' feature will limit how much gear is running at any
given moment.

IF NOT, I'd want a minimum of 3 circuits for the 120v, with 'staggered'
availability. i.e. circuit1/2 at the first box, circuit2/3 at the
second box, and circuit 3/1 at the third box..

Also, you'll find out _real_quick_ that you need more outlets by the work-
bench. recommend 3 quad boxes along -that- wall as well.

Lastly, I'd put in GFI _outlets_, and use regular breakers, where I could.
_IF_ something trips, it will kill that outlet only, and -not- take out
'something else' that might be running on the same circuit. More of a
consideration in a 'more than one person' shop, but it's along the same lines
as why you don't put _anything_ else on the 'lighting' circuit -- localize
the 'surprise factor' as much as possible.

Note: if you look for 'em, you can find _20_ Amp rated 120v GFI duplex
outlets. They're practically the same cost as the stock 15A ones, but the
attachment points are sized for the bigger wire gauge, and give the potential
for _safely_ supporting a higher-draw 120v device.

In article ,
DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Jun 1, 8:11*pm, "Bill" wrote:
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message

news:be4235af-adbc-4050-8fbe-

The top of my workbench overhangs the support frame by about 5 inches.
I put a 120V duplex every 2.5 feet or so along the frame under the
overhang, facing out into the shop.

This keeps the top of the workbench clear of cords running from the
back wall (as pictured in your "garage" sketch) when using sanders,
heat guns, etc.

DD,

This is a nice idea. *Is the workbench powered using a male-male extension
cord to the wall?
Sorry if the answer is obvious.

Bill

"Is the workbench powered using a male-male extension cord to the
wall?"

I was hoping nobody would ask that question!

The workbench is a rather old structure (1950's?) that came with the
house. It is basically framed with full-sized 2 x 4's (doubled up for
the legs) and topped with 2 x 8's, upon which I added 1/4" hardboard
to get a smooth yet replaceable work surface. The unit is just over 8'
long and about 3' deep. It's a rather hefty unit.

It is more or less "permanently" wired into the shop. There is a
junction box attached to a back leg of the workbench with a run of
12/2 NM from a junction box in the ceiling. From the workbench
junction box I ran more 12/2 along the frame and attached the outlets
in surface mount boxes.

I assume the junction box attached to the workbench is probably not
code, but based on the weight of the workbench and it's location, it's
not something that ever gets moved. If it needed to be moved, I would
disconnect the wires in the ceiling box so no live wires would be
exposed.

What would be required to bring this up to code? Would a male-male be
required? Would just a male pig-tail from the junction box to a
receptacle be better? Or is it OK as is?

male-male is *illegal* in a lot of jurisdictions. Serious risk if the
upstream (i.e. the wall outlet fed from utility power) end is plugged in
and the other end is -not-.

In most jurisdictions the outlets on the bench is perfectly legal (no
different than a convenience outlet on a stove, say), with a simple drop
cord to plug it into a wall outlet. I would probably consider using
greenlee armored cable and a twist-lok connector. grin

I'd use greenlee, or actual EMT conduit, for all the 'on bench' inter-
connections. something -could- fly around and hit bare wiring (even NM)
I don't believe in giving MURPHY a -chance- to muck with things.

(Robert Bonomi) wrote in
:

*snip*

Lastly, I'd put in GFI _outlets_, and use regular breakers, where I
could. _IF_ something trips, it will kill that outlet only, and -not-
take out 'something else' that might be running on the same circuit.
More of a consideration in a 'more than one person' shop, but it's
along the same lines as why you don't put _anything_ else on the
'lighting' circuit -- localize the 'surprise factor' as much as
possible.


*snip*

Many of the GFCI outlets I've seen have a little indicator light that
turns on when tripped. Simplifes the whole "did my lamp burn out or is
the outlet dead?" question. Just another small reason to use GFCI
outlets.

Puckdropper
--
Never teach your apprentice everything you know.

"Puckdropper" puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote in message
...
(Robert Bonomi) wrote in
:

*snip*

Lastly, I'd put in GFI _outlets_, and use regular breakers, where I
could. _IF_ something trips, it will kill that outlet only, and -not-
take out 'something else' that might be running on the same circuit.

Robert,

That sounds (to me) inconsistent with the "you one need one GFI outlet at
the beginning of a (circuit) run for each hot" advise that I've heard.
What am I missing?

Bill




More of a consideration in a 'more than one person' shop, but it's
along the same lines as why you don't put _anything_ else on the
'lighting' circuit -- localize the 'surprise factor' as much as
possible.

Doug Miller wrote:

The air compressor could be on the same circuit as either the table saw or the
dust collector, since it's unlikely that you'd ever be using it at the same
time as either of the others.

Wot?

I could have all my tools on the same circuit EXCEPT the dust collector
and air compressor, since they are the only ones that run at the same
time as my other tools.

--
Jack
Obama Care...Freedom not Included!
http://jbstein.com

On 6/4/2010 11:04 PM, Bill wrote:
"Puckdropper"puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote in message
...
(Robert Bonomi) wrote in
:

*snip*

Lastly, I'd put in GFI _outlets_, and use regular breakers, where I
could. _IF_ something trips, it will kill that outlet only, and -not-
take out 'something else' that might be running on the same circuit.

Robert,

That sounds (to me) inconsistent with the "you one need one GFI outlet at
the beginning of a (circuit) run for each hot" advise that I've heard.
What am I missing?

Nothing ... you should not have more than one GFCI protection device on
a branch circuit; either a GFCI c'bkr protecting the circuit at the
panel, or a "GFCI receptacle" as the first receptacle in the branch
circuit that protects the rest of the run.

He was merely saying that, in some instances, that first GFCI receptacle
is in the same room making it easy to see if it has tripped.

That is not always the case in a residence, however, where the GFCI
receptacle for the branch circuit may be in a different room, in a
closet, on the wall under a cabinet, on in some instances, outside ...
it's why I carry a GFCI circuit tester in my pocket, particularly when
accompanying an inspector on an electrical inspection of one of my
houses under construction, something which I _always_ do.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

In article , Jack Stein wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:

The air compressor could be on the same circuit as either the table saw or
the
dust collector, since it's unlikely that you'd ever be using it at the same
time as either of the others.

Wot?

I could have all my tools on the same circuit EXCEPT the dust collector
and air compressor, since they are the only ones that run at the same
time as my other tools.

You use pneumatic tools and the table saw at the same time?

Yes, I understand the compressor could kick on even when it's not in use, but
remember that "best practice" is to shut the compressor down and drain the
water at the end of the day. If it cycles on, when not in use, once a day,
then you have a pretty considerable air leak somewhere.

On Jun 5, 9:45*am, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , Jack Stein wrote:

I could have all my tools on the same circuit EXCEPT the dust collector
and air compressor, since they are the only ones that run at the same
time as my other tools.

You use pneumatic tools and the table saw at the same time?

Yes, I understand the compressor could kick on even when it's not in use,

Or, you can dust the saw off with the airgun between cuts... or
even, for heavy use, maybe direct a bolt-in air nozzle at the saw's
teeth
inside the table saw housing. A drill, saw, or router can benefit
from
airblast chip removal as well as from dust collection. If you want
to be creative,
consider air-powered clamps and vises, too.

On Sat, 05 Jun 2010 16:45:41 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article , Jack Stein wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:

The air compressor could be on the same circuit as either the table saw or
the
dust collector, since it's unlikely that you'd ever be using it at the same
time as either of the others.

Wot?

I could have all my tools on the same circuit EXCEPT the dust collector
and air compressor, since they are the only ones that run at the same
time as my other tools.

You use pneumatic tools and the table saw at the same time?

A compressor can come on at any time.

Yes, I understand the compressor could kick on even when it's not in use, but
remember that "best practice" is to shut the compressor down and drain the
water at the end of the day. If it cycles on, when not in use, once a day,
then you have a pretty considerable air leak somewhere.

Are you saying that you never use your compressor in the same day as your saw?

In article ,
Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Swingman
wrote:
On 6/1/2010 5:05 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
[...]
Don't presume to lecture me on residential electrical installations. You have
no idea.

Ayup!!

BTW, you're getting mellow in your old age, Doug!

Thanks, Swing, I've been working on that actually...

Don't work with A/C ower then. it's *RE*VOLTING*. groan

In article ,
Bill wrote:
My understanding of the NEC is that one cannot have a duplex outlet within
30 inches to the left of right of a main panel or subpanel.
This is correct, is it not? I'm laying out wall #2 now. SU is
"heaven-sent" ! : )

Bill



As of 4 years ago, I can say "authoritatively not". Can't imagine that
they stuck something that silly in a new version, but i have been wrong
before. Twice, I think.

In article ,
Bill wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , "Bill"
wrote:
My understanding of the NEC is that one cannot have a duplex outlet within
30 inches to the left of right of a main panel or subpanel.
This is correct, is it not?

I'm not aware of any such requirement. Ask whoever told you that to show
you
where the Code says that.

Doug,
I recall reading (from some authoritative source) that, according to the
NEC, the space above and below a main panel is to be free and so is the
space 30" in front of it.

That's for _access_ to the panel. Does -not- mean that 'nothing' can be there.

"premesis" panel in the kitchen of a condo. 'drop leaf' counter mounted on
the wall under it. outlets on wall a line about halfway between counter line
and bottom of box. one 3" to the right of the right edge of the panel, another
about 10 " to the left of the panel. City inspector had -no- problems with it.
(locale: a Chicago suburb, inspectors knowledgable and strict. Had some
minor quibbles over a few nuances of interpretation, but when they explained,
I had to agree their logic made sense. And I then did things their way.
(helped a lot that I double-checked _before_ doing, when of in 'nooks and
crannies' of the code. grin)


I'm still searching for that source now. I had
been wondering how close to the sides of a subpanel I can locate a 120v
duplex outlet.

Minimum distance is about two box fittings. grin

From looking other remarks in the NEC, it does not appear to
be as concerned about the sides, as it doesn't expect a panel to be serviced
from the sides. Does this sound famililar to you? I'll keep looking for
the original source of my concern. I appreciate your posts.

Bill

In article ,
wrote:
On Jun 3, 9:43*am, DerbyDad03 wrote:

"The main service equipment panel shall be mounted either outside or
inside the dwelling at the point of entrance of the service conductors
to the building."

Interesting. My main breaker panel is in the attic (unfinished space
over the garage) at pretty much the opposite end of the house as the
service entrance.

This requirement _has_ changed over time. when was your service installed?

In article ,
Bill wrote:

"Puckdropper" puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote in message
.. .
(Robert Bonomi) wrote in
:

*snip*

Lastly, I'd put in GFI _outlets_, and use regular breakers, where I
could. _IF_ something trips, it will kill that outlet only, and -not-
take out 'something else' that might be running on the same circuit.

Robert,

That sounds (to me) inconsistent with the "you one need one GFI outlet at
the beginning of a (circuit) run for each hot" advise that I've heard.
What am I missing?

Nothing. that's _all_ you *NEED*. *IF* you series-wired the downstream
outlets.

I parallel-wire, and use a GFI each place.

On Sat, 05 Jun 2010 15:46:26 -0500, (Robert
Bonomi) wrote:

In article ,
wrote:
On Jun 3, 9:43*am, DerbyDad03 wrote:

"The main service equipment panel shall be mounted either outside or
inside the dwelling at the point of entrance of the service conductors
to the building."

Interesting. My main breaker panel is in the attic (unfinished space
over the garage) at pretty much the opposite end of the house as the
service entrance.

This requirement _has_ changed over time. when was your service installed?

Late 2007, early 2008. The previous house (main panel in front porch closet
on opposite side of garage as the service entrance) was built in '86.

I think someone else had the answer in another threadlet, however. There is a
disconnect at the entrance.

On Sat, 05 Jun 2010 15:55:30 -0500, (Robert
Bonomi) wrote:

In article ,
Bill wrote:

"Puckdropper" puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote in message
. ..
(Robert Bonomi) wrote in
:

*snip*

Lastly, I'd put in GFI _outlets_, and use regular breakers, where I
could. _IF_ something trips, it will kill that outlet only, and -not-
take out 'something else' that might be running on the same circuit.

Robert,

That sounds (to me) inconsistent with the "you one need one GFI outlet at
the beginning of a (circuit) run for each hot" advise that I've heard.
What am I missing?

Nothing. that's _all_ you *NEED*. *IF* you series-wired the downstream
outlets.

I parallel-wire, and use a GFI each place.

Why would you do that? BTW, bad choice of terminology. All loads are wired
in parallel.

In article unications,
Robert Bonomi wrote:
In article ,
Bill wrote:

"Puckdropper" puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote in message
. ..
(Robert Bonomi) wrote in
:

*snip*

Lastly, I'd put in GFI _outlets_, and use regular breakers, where I
could. _IF_ something trips, it will kill that outlet only, and -not-
take out 'something else' that might be running on the same circuit.

Robert,

That sounds (to me) inconsistent with the "you one need one GFI outlet at
the beginning of a (circuit) run for each hot" advise that I've heard.
What am I missing?

Nothing. that's _all_ you *NEED*. *IF* you series-wired the downstream
outlets.

I parallel-wire, and use a GFI each place.

Clarification -- this *is* somewhat unconventional, I realize it needs more
explanation.

A standard GFI outlet has two pairs of isolated wiring points. One (hot and
neutral) for upstream ['line'], the other (ISOLATED hot / ISOLATED neutral)
for additional outlet(s) [load] to be protected.

Typical ("series") wiring is hot/neutral from panel to GFI 'line', GFI 'load'
(isolated) hot/neutral to next outlet and on to next (repeating as needed)
making sure that the isolated neutral is 'continuous' from GFI to end of run.

NEC has specified that neutral must be a continuous conductor back to the panel.
*PRESUMABLY* there's an exception to this for 'downstream' GFI protection, as
the downstream outlet (isolated) neutral has to be wired to the GFI load neutral,
*NOT* to the panel neutral bus.

What _I_ first did, motivated by the fact that (1) I was putting only 2 duplex
outlets on a breaker, (2) the 2 duplex outlets were located 'distant' from each
other (idea being to have 'as many as practical' different circuits 'within
reach' at any given point), _and_ (3) as a result of (2), the outlets were
usually in _opposite_directions_ from the panel. Each hot came out of the panel
and into an immediately adjacent 'distribution box' where it was joined to a
_separate_ wire going to each outlet (shorter to do 2 runs, then out to one
outlet, back, and out to 2nd outlet.) (3 conductors in the wire-nut -- one to
each outlet, and the 'common' back to the breaker) -- one to each outlet,
and the 'common' back to the breaker) Neutral from each outlet was run all the
way back to the panel. no breaks, no splices. This called for a GFI breaker
at _each_ location. since neither 'downstream' of, or protected by the other.
(Note: electrical inspector _did_ wonder at, and question, *all* those neutrals
at the panel. more neutrals than circuits!

Subsequently, I've been able to find GFI receptacles for _not_ much more money
than a quality duplex outlet. So, I treat the in wall wiring (hot/neutral) like
a 'buss'. and pigtail off a tap on -each- one at each outlet. which connects
to the _line_ side of a GFI outlet at each location. 'load' side goes unused.
Each GFI can see only it's own pigtail and trips only if a device plugged into
it fails. When it trips, it kills only the pigtail, and any other independently
protected outlets on the 'buss' are still active.

There is an additional, but subtle, advantage to this set-up, _if_ there is a
possibility of (young) children around. Since you've got a _separate_ GFI at
-each- outlet position, you can disable the outlets, by hitting the 'test'
button on all of them, and only resetting when actually needed for use.

Outlets with switches 'built in' are *handy*. Especially when it's not
particularly obvious that they _are_ switches. *GRIN*

In article ,
zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 05 Jun 2010 15:55:30 -0500, (Robert
Bonomi) wrote:

In article ,
Bill wrote:

"Puckdropper" puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote in message
...
(Robert Bonomi) wrote in
:

*snip*

Lastly, I'd put in GFI _outlets_, and use regular breakers, where I
could. _IF_ something trips, it will kill that outlet only, and -not-
take out 'something else' that might be running on the same circuit.

Robert,

That sounds (to me) inconsistent with the "you one need one GFI outlet at
the beginning of a (circuit) run for each hot" advise that I've heard.
What am I missing?

Nothing. that's _all_ you *NEED*. *IF* you series-wired the downstream
outlets.

I parallel-wire, and use a GFI each place.

Why would you do that?

"because". grin See my self-follow-up article where I clarified everything.

BTW, bad choice of terminology. All loads are wired
in parallel.

You demonstrate you don't know what you don't know.

'protected' outlets downstream from a GFI outlet are wired in _series_ with
the GFI device. (This doesn't mean that the loads are in series, they're not,
but current-sensing _requires_ a sensor in series with the load.) Even a
'clamp-on' ammeter uses a sensor in series with the load. *grin*

You have a pair (hot/neutral) of 'line' terminals for the feed from the panel,
and an _isolated_ pair of terminals for feeding the protected outlets. If you
use _either_ the hot or neutral from the panel to the downstream outlets rather
than the isolated ones from the GFI, there is *no* protection.

In article , " wrote:
On Sat, 05 Jun 2010 16:45:41 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article , Jack Stein
wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:

The air compressor could be on the same circuit as either the table saw or
the
dust collector, since it's unlikely that you'd ever be using it at the same

time as either of the others.

Wot?

I could have all my tools on the same circuit EXCEPT the dust collector
and air compressor, since they are the only ones that run at the same
time as my other tools.

You use pneumatic tools and the table saw at the same time?

A compressor can come on at any time.

Yes, I understand the compressor could kick on even when it's not in use, but
remember that "best practice" is to shut the compressor down and drain the
water at the end of the day. If it cycles on, when not in use, once a day,
then you have a pretty considerable air leak somewhere.

Are you saying that you never use your compressor in the same day as your saw?

Does using your compressor cause it to kick on at some random time *later*
that day, after you're finished using it? If so, then it's time to check your
air piping for leaks.

In article unications, (Robert Bonomi) wrote:
In article ,
Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Swingman
wrote:
On 6/1/2010 5:05 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
[...]
Don't presume to lecture me on residential electrical installations. You
have
no idea.

Ayup!!

BTW, you're getting mellow in your old age, Doug!

Thanks, Swing, I've been working on that actually...

Don't work with A/C ower then. it's *RE*VOLTING*. groan


I'm shocked that I didn't see that coming.

In article unications, (Robert Bonomi) wrote:

NEC has specified that neutral must be a continuous conductor back to the
panel.

Cite, please. I'm not aware of that one.

zzzzzzzzzz wrote:


A compressor can come on at any time.


Not really. It will only come on if the pressure drops below the cut in
pressure. Quite predictable actually.


Yes, I understand the compressor could kick on even when it's not in
use, but
remember that "best practice" is to shut the compressor down and
drain the
water at the end of the day. If it cycles on, when not in use, once
a day,
then you have a pretty considerable air leak somewhere.

Are you saying that you never use your compressor in the same day as
your saw?

No, but his point is valid. The compressor is not going to come on just
because it's sitting there. If you're not using it to drain down the
pressure, it's not going to come on unless you have a leak. Best to fix the
leak.

--

-Mike-